1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,840 Hey, I'm Matt Brownell. 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:10,480 And I'm Van Owens. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,160 And I'm Tim Adams. 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:18,120 Welcome to Climbing the Mountain, where we dive into the scriptures and discuss themes, 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,280 connections, and real life application. 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,960 We're kicking off a series here where we're going to examine the Sermon on the Mount and 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:33,080 discuss implications for this teaching for Christians today. 8 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:34,080 Welcome. 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,280 This episode is about the sanctity of marriage. 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:42,440 We've just spent a bunch of time wrestling with this subject, and we're still wrestling 11 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:43,840 with it. 12 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,400 So we're probably going to come back to that. 13 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:48,920 We need some more time. 14 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:55,840 But what we don't need more time with and what we want to talk about right now is what 15 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,480 we think about how sacred marriage is. 16 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:05,120 We live in a society where almost everyone's been touched in some way by divorce, and it's 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,080 a very, very painful subject for a lot of people. 18 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:14,920 My parents were divorced, and it was totally shocking and wrenching. 19 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,560 It's really one of the only times I can recall seeing my dad cry. 20 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,600 It was like a death had occurred, but there was no finality to it. 21 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:28,680 No time for fond remembrances, only a living death, a constant dying. 22 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:34,600 It's taken a long time for that open sword to heal, and it left fears that took a long 23 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,560 time for me to face personally. 24 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:44,840 So if you hear something in this episode that's hard, please know we empathize at the same 25 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:51,720 time we want to look at it, because sometimes we need to talk about what's painful because 26 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,080 it's the only way to bring healing. 27 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,200 Or maybe you're about to get married. 28 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,120 So I think that's also important to hear what Jesus is saying here. 29 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:02,480 Tim, do you want to read this? 30 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:03,480 Yeah. 31 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:09,720 So in Matthew 5:31-32, it says, it was also said, whoever divorces his wife, let him give 32 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,640 her a certificate of divorce. 33 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:16,440 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, 34 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:21,640 makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. 35 00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:23,080 Right. 36 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:29,400 So this passage we're studying, just to give the context here, it's one of what's 37 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:35,040 referred to as one of the six antitheses, because Jesus quotes a passage of the law, 38 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:41,160 or he paraphrases something and then says, but I say, and then he gives us God's will. 39 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:47,880 Um, it, it wasn't until I spent a long time in this section though, that I understood 40 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,800 something which I think is, is basic. 41 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,760 Um, Jesus says our righteousness should surpass out of the Pharisees and teachers of law. 42 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:02,600 And then he gives his audience six examples of teaching that they heard in their day. 43 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:09,040 He says, you've heard it said each of these six examples represent something false or 44 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,800 something hypocritical that was prevalent in Jesus's time. 45 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:17,120 He's telling his audience that their teachers had relaxed the law in some way, and then 46 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,200 he tells them how they did it. 47 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,800 And I don't know, some of you might be thinking, yeah, duh, congratulations. 48 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:24,800 Welcome to the party, pal. 49 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:25,880 It took you long enough. 50 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:27,120 That's how I feel kind of. 51 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:32,160 It was kind of like those, uh, one of those, uh, light is dawning on marble head moments 52 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:33,160 for me. 53 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,080 Um, but it's, uh, I don't know. 54 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,520 It's really interesting though, as, as I started to dig into this more because, um, it, it 55 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:47,600 blew my mind and you can see records in the Dead Sea Scrolls and rabbitical, uh, sources 56 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,440 that illustrate the very problems Jesus was correcting in these six examples. 57 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:56,760 Now, in the case of divorce, he's highlighting a debate between two schools of thought and 58 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,560 where the prevailing wind was of change was blowing. 59 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,720 You had the Pharisees and the teachers of law and they were picking up a piece of Deuteronomy 60 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:10,360 24 and they were misquoting it or maybe misapplying it to facilitate easy divorce. 61 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:15,080 They're saying all you need to do to satisfy the law is give your wife a certificate of 62 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,120 divorce, then you're righteous. 63 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:23,320 You fulfilled the requirements of the law and Jesus says, no, that's not God's will. 64 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:29,520 He completely removes the loophole they had created, what I'd call the clever lawyering, 65 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,680 um, that had circumvented God's will. 66 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:41,360 So question, how, how does this context mirror our society's attitudes toward divorce? 67 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:46,360 What are some of the problems we face when we listen to the world standards on this 68 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:47,360 topic? 69 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:54,480 Yeah, Matt, I appreciate that intro and, and us being able to, to have this conversation. 70 00:04:54,480 --> 00:05:03,880 I know when I think about what the world commonly teaches about most things, uh, and marriage 71 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,840 in particular, uh, one of the words that comes to mind is convenience. 72 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:17,200 Uh, there's this very prevalent idea that my life should be, you know, full of happiness 73 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,200 and comfort and it should be convenient for me. 74 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,840 I mean, that's why we love Amazon and all these other things that, you know, bring us 75 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:28,000 what we want at our fingertips. 76 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:37,080 And when I'm thinking about the way that we're seeing the Pharisees and the teachers of the 77 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:44,880 law handle the command in scripture, uh, the, in Deuteronomy 24, um, you're, you're talking 78 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,440 about, you know, they're, they're using it to facilitate an easy divorce because the 79 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:55,960 idea of being faithful, being committed to someone, even if that's challenging, that's 80 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,600 not a very convenient thing. 81 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:04,600 Uh, and so I think we can miss a lot of the, the real promise and potential of marriage 82 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:13,680 if we think that it's always got to be easy and it's always, it's always something that 83 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:20,440 needs to make me feel, you know, really pleasantly and if that's not the case, then it's just 84 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:25,680 something that I can end because it's not giving me something that I want. 85 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:26,680 Yeah. 86 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:35,800 Uh, Tim, I, I agree with what you're saying about so much of what we do and how we are 87 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:42,080 in our relationships in, in everything that we do is based on how it feels. 88 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,280 It's supposed to feel, we want to feel good all the time. 89 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:48,680 We want to be happy all the time. 90 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:54,600 And I think nobody really believes that they're actually going to achieve that. 91 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,640 I do think though that in the area of relationships and particularly when it comes to romantic 92 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:08,360 relationships and, and marriages, there's this sense of the need to want to feel that 93 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,320 first blush of in love all the time. 94 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:13,640 Yeah. 95 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,840 And people speak in terms like that. 96 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:23,840 People speak in terms of being in love and, uh, and they don't think of loving someone 97 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:29,160 as something that you build, something that you have to work at, something that you have 98 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:34,920 to grow in and something that you're committed to. 99 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,320 Because that language and almost every wedding ceremony I've ever been in, whether it was 100 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:45,920 religious or secular, there is language that talks about building and being committed. 101 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:51,280 But when it comes right down to it, it, it sort of just gets at our feelings. 102 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:59,040 And that if you're feeling not great about your relationship, about your marriage, then 103 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:04,840 that suddenly becomes grounds of considering, well, whether it, maybe it's not working. 104 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,080 Maybe it's time to, maybe it's time to take a break. 105 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:09,160 Maybe it's time to quit. 106 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:10,840 Maybe it's time to divorce. 107 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:11,840 Yeah. 108 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:12,840 Yeah. 109 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,200 We have these weird ideas about, well, I think you can even hear it in, in the, uh, one of 110 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,720 these inalienable, inalienable rights that we all think we have. 111 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,080 One of them is the pursuit of happiness. 112 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,120 A lot of us just get rid of the first part and say happiness. 113 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:29,120 That's my right. 114 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,440 Well, happiness, that is so mercurial. 115 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,840 Like, you know, there's so many things that will, will change that. 116 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:45,040 But you know, if you feel like this is your right, well, this person's not making me happy. 117 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:46,840 I got to find someone else who will. 118 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,320 Well, the problem is wherever you go, there you are. 119 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:52,320 Exactly. 120 00:08:52,320 --> 00:09:02,600 Uh, this section begins with an also instead of just the normal you have heard it said, 121 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:09,000 in this sense, it appears connected to the previous section on lust and adultery. 122 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,720 How are these two examples related? 123 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:15,120 And what do you think is the overall point Jesus is trying to make about divorce? 124 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:16,120 Yeah. 125 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:23,120 So, I guess, Matt, one of the things I was, uh, and you said that this section starts 126 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,400 with also, I had to go back and look at all the different translations. 127 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,120 And I was like, Oh, some of them say also and some of them don't. 128 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,960 I don't know why that is, but then it got me thinking about the structure and it definitely 129 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,240 has a different structure introducing this concept. 130 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,680 And I was like, okay, so the point of it being linked is definitely still there. 131 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:44,880 But it, it got me thinking because I don't always think about how these sections are 132 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,960 connected and how the, and everything flows. 133 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:53,080 Uh, and I get so honed in on what the headings are, right? 134 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,440 They get put in our modern Bibles. 135 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:02,200 And so I, I really appreciate the, the deeper, uh, look into it to think about, okay, how 136 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,400 are these things connect? 137 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:10,000 And one of the things that I was thinking about, so a lot of these things that Jesus 138 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,160 is saying is, are things that we shouldn't do, right? 139 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:14,160 Yeah. 140 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,960 And that there's, there's other parts of the Beatitudes that talk about, or the Sermon 141 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,960 on the mount in general that talk about what we should do. 142 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,280 Um, and I have a question. 143 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,040 I find sometimes going back and forth can be helpful for me. 144 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:36,760 And so I was just thinking about what's, what's the general idea of what is Jesus' desire 145 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:38,640 in these marriage relationships, right? 146 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:46,440 If he's saying lust is adultery, that divorce, he's, um, you know, calling that in this context, 147 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:47,960 he's calling that adultery. 148 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:54,320 Um, he makes her - in the new NIV, he's talking about making her the victim of adultery. 149 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,600 I mean, there's this really intense language, right? 150 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,840 That's the point I'm trying to make in this context. 151 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,560 And what's the positive side of that, right? 152 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:05,840 What's the, what's the other side of the coin? 153 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,480 And the word that came to mind was faithfulness, right? 154 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:14,800 Like God desires faithfulness in the marriage relationship, just as he desires it in other 155 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:20,560 relationships, just as he modeled it for, uh, himself, you know, to us. 156 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:28,240 And both of these things, you know, lust, uh, is, is a break of that faithfulness when, 157 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,240 when you, if you are married, it's a break of faithfulness to your spouse, right? 158 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,040 Uh, it goes much beyond that. 159 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,280 And we talked about that at great length in the other episodes. 160 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,960 Uh, but in one sense, that's one of the things I see. 161 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:45,200 And then, uh, divorce is also, you know, a break of that faithfulness of, uh, either 162 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,040 it's a break of the faithfulness or an acknowledgement of that, that breaking already happening. 163 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:55,960 But it's, uh, however you might think about it, there's, these aren't the ideal of what 164 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,280 God is desiring for these, this, this marriage covenant. 165 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:01,280 Yeah. 166 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:02,280 Yeah. 167 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:09,520 There's sort of a, there's sort of a, there's a what you do and there's a who you are inside. 168 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:16,680 You know, I was having a discussion, um, with someone a week ago and I told them whenever 169 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:23,920 I'm making a decision about something, I have to think about what, what is the, or more 170 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:31,480 accurately whenever I'm reacting, making a decision is a more faithful process because 171 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:37,600 you're slowing down and, but when I'm reacting, when something happens and I just react, I 172 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:42,480 said to this person, the sod in me wants to do this. 173 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,400 I want to go over and smack the guy. 174 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:53,400 The God in me tells me immediately, no, that's not a good idea. 175 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,240 Slow down, think about it. 176 00:12:55,240 --> 00:13:02,040 And I think that a lot of times with when we're talking about adultery and it is, uh, 177 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,720 such a, an extreme word. 178 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:05,720 Yeah. 179 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:06,720 It is. 180 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:14,400 It's such a, it's such a hard word to hear for, uh, for a married person to think my 181 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:15,920 lust is adultery. 182 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,000 That's, that's crazy. 183 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:23,720 And that Jesus is adding that also there or, you know, to your point, Tim, that this is 184 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,560 all together in one context. 185 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:31,600 It's his saying that what's more important is God in you. 186 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:36,560 What's more important is your soul, is your spirit. 187 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:43,520 Whether you're restraining yourself or not, you know, it's more important that I deal 188 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,560 with the thing in me that wants to go smack the guy. 189 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:48,560 Yeah. 190 00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:51,840 Then it is my just saying, well, I wanted to smack the guy, but I didn't. 191 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:53,080 Does that make sense? 192 00:13:53,080 --> 00:14:01,000 It's, it, it's not just the refraining from the immediate reaction. 193 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,200 It's the dealing with the spirit that wants to do that. 194 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,200 Yeah. 195 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:10,160 There's something inside of us, each of us that, that Jesus addresses in our heart, all of these things 196 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,240 go straight to our heart. 197 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:17,240 The motivations, the thoughts, the, everything that's going on inside of us that God sees 198 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:22,680 and, and I, um, I think that all of them have to do with, I like what you're saying, Tim, 199 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:28,480 about faithfulness, you know, that there is, that is one of the, the core things that, 200 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,120 you know, matters to God. 201 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:36,880 And each of these examples is, is, you know, an aspect of how love breaks down in some 202 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:37,880 way. 203 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:43,280 And, and I think for me, the thing that connects these two is the adultery actually. 204 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,600 And the, you know, he talks about lust as an adultery and he talks about divorce as 205 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,200 an adultery. 206 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:55,520 And the, the, that's what connects it for me that, that divorce adulterates people. 207 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,960 It's, uh, just like lust adulterates people outside of marriage. 208 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:02,560 And both are not God's design. 209 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:07,160 And, and, um, it makes me think too about the context a little bit about this, right? 210 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,360 So they have this squabble over Deuteronomy 24. 211 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:15,120 And, um, I think it's interesting that, you know, the scripture is being twisted. 212 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:23,720 Uh, and Jesus uses a word, um, um, that it, that goes to me, harkens back to that original, 213 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:29,920 um, passage, uh, when he, when he uses, um, the term for sexual immorality. 214 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,520 It's kind of an umbrella term that would include adultery. 215 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:43,000 And in that original, uh, Deuteronomy 24 passage, it talks about, um, some indecency and that 216 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:49,160 the word that's used over there has to do with uncleanness of a shameful exposure of 217 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:50,640 one's genitals. 218 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:55,200 So there's some kind of indecent behavior that's implied there. 219 00:15:55,200 --> 00:16:01,120 And, uh, so, so I think he's, he's connecting to those things and then talking about how 220 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,120 that was twisted somehow. 221 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:09,600 But, but what I see is that there's just a lot of adulterating happening in the, you 222 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,240 know, there's a lot of adultery happening. 223 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,920 If I had to take a stab at what's the, the main thrust here, I think it has to do with 224 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,080 the sanctity of marriage. 225 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:26,320 That is created something that is, uh, it shouldn't be so easily dissolved. 226 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:31,480 We should look at that and, uh, not take marriage as such a light thing. 227 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:32,480 Right. 228 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:41,160 And I do think, um, uh, to your point, Tim, about wanting to go and see what is the opposite. 229 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:46,080 What, what is this really about and landing on that it's about faithfulness? 230 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:54,160 Uh, I think that's a very important thing for us to do in general when we read the scriptures. 231 00:16:54,160 --> 00:17:03,440 Uh, I tend towards the negative in, in, uh, in everything that, in the way that I think. 232 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,640 And I think society tends towards the negative. 233 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:14,280 That's why we're so fascinated by documentaries about serial killers and, you know, uh, westerns 234 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:22,880 about bad guys and, and we, we tend to emphasize negative things and, uh, that the message 235 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,840 of the scripture is life and it's, it's, it's love. 236 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:32,200 And we have to think how is Jesus trying to point us in that direction with what he's 237 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:33,200 saying here. 238 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,280 Obviously he's not trying to get us to just think adultery, adultery, adultery all the 239 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:39,280 time. 240 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:47,200 He's trying by his words to tell us how special, how sacred marriage is supposed to be. 241 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,480 But and, and I think it's something that says something about the sinful nature where 242 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,200 we look for loopholes, right? 243 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:54,200 Yeah. 244 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,520 And that's sort of what he's addressed. 245 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:56,520 I think you're right. 246 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,640 He is talking about, no, the high ideal is faithfulness. 247 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:06,120 And so, uh, but it's funny how often people look at this and, and their first inclination 248 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:08,080 is, Oh, is there an exception? 249 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:09,080 When can I get divorced? 250 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,400 No, that's, you're missing the point. 251 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:12,800 That's not what he's talking about. 252 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,680 He's talking about being faithful. 253 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,280 And I think that's such an important thing to, to remember. 254 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:25,360 Can I just like connect two of those ideas because we've sort of this faithfulness, um, 255 00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:29,840 but then there's, you guys were talking about all these things get to the heart, right? 256 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,200 And I feel like lust is maybe an easier one to see how it connects to the heart because 257 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,760 it's this very internal thing, but divorce is a very external action, right? 258 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,640 It's a, you're making a legal statement. 259 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,040 I'm not connected to this person anymore. 260 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:48,760 Um, but it's, it's only when we think about the, the positive, you know, what is, what 261 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:54,760 is Jesus aiming at in, in, in speaking against divorce with a strong language that we can 262 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,040 see how this gets to the heart, right? 263 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:03,920 If we just focus on the negative, it feels like, Oh, you know, Jesus is just saying, 264 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:13,800 Oh, you shouldn't do this, this thing, but when we think about how God desires faithfulness, 265 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:21,520 then we see, Oh, well, so many times in my life, even if I'm not thinking about divorce, 266 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,240 I'm still not coming at things from a faithful perspective. 267 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:26,240 Right. 268 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,600 Maybe it's, and we're going to talk about oaths soon. 269 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,240 And there's like the way I'm full of it in my full of integrity, right? 270 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,960 Or, um, or it's my internal thoughts, right? 271 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:41,080 Like is faithfulness is love the, the, the guiding force of my life. 272 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:48,720 And I think by speaking against divorce in this strong way that Jesus, you know, is pointing 273 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:49,720 us in that direction. 274 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:50,720 Yeah. 275 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,200 Well, I think it would have shocked his hearers to, to an extent to hear some of this. 276 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,720 And I think it's shocking to us a little bit too. 277 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:03,360 And think what it does for me is, um, you know, thinking positively, this is about faithfulness. 278 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:09,320 It reminds me how much I need God to be faithful. 279 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:18,400 I mean, I think, uh, I mean, if it wasn't for God, I would be divorced. 280 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:19,800 And that's mostly because of me. 281 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:25,280 I mean, but, I mean, I know that there's two people in this equation, my wife and I, but 282 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:32,560 I would be divorced because I'm a sinner and it's only because of God that I'm not divorced. 283 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:33,560 And I'm very grateful. 284 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:34,560 I love my wife. 285 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,320 I'm so grateful that we're not divorced. 286 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:44,080 And I get, I mean, I, I, I think I looked out in the, the equation here for sure, because 287 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,520 I get so much, I experienced so much love in that. 288 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,120 And I'm glad, um, but I, I need God. 289 00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:53,920 I can see it so clearly. 290 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:54,920 Yeah. 291 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,360 And I just appreciate your honesty with that, Matt, just like saying that. 292 00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:02,280 Cause I think a lot of, I've only been married for a couple of years. 293 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:07,560 Um, but I, it's been long enough to realize like, Oh, this is like really hard. 294 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:12,160 You know, and when I was single and I was outside looking in, uh, and I saw people who 295 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:17,600 got divorced after 15, 20, 25, 30 years of marriage, I thought in my head of like, Oh, 296 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:22,160 I can't, I can't understand why anyone would possibly do that. 297 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:27,640 And now I'm like, Oh, well, if I'm just living my own sinful way and my wife is living in 298 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,720 her own sinful way, we're not very nice to be around. 299 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:31,720 No. 300 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,520 And that's really hard to deal with. 301 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:40,800 And it's only through us dying to ourselves and deciding we're going to love one another 302 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:46,120 and primarily love God and commit ourselves to this relationship that it can become a 303 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:49,040 thing that thrives and grows and brings life. 304 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,040 But, um, I, yeah. 305 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:56,760 I had a couple of kids and mortgage, job stress, throw a few more stresses on you. 306 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,680 Life just gets harder and harder. 307 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,120 And that's usually when people break. 308 00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:04,120 If you're relying on yourself, that's, that's when people break. 309 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:05,120 Yeah. 310 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:13,040 Having been married for, I think I've probably been married the longest, uh, 30, 32 years 311 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,040 coming up on. 312 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:24,320 And, you know, I shudder to think of the type of man I would be if I had not married. 313 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:31,240 Shemitra that we, uh, we work so well together. 314 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:36,880 And, and that's not to say that we don't have disagreements and we don't have issues 315 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,080 and we don't have problems and we don't have things that we're working through. 316 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:46,520 And as soon as we work through one thing, another thing pops up, life is really hard 317 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,200 that way. 318 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:56,200 But, uh, the, and the feeling of being in love, the, the, the hearts popping in bubbles 319 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:03,400 around my eyes when I see her, I still get that sometimes, but I have to get there sometimes 320 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:04,960 too. 321 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:11,840 And, uh, there's so much, I often say that people marriage is not for the faint of heart. 322 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:12,840 It's not. 323 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,480 You, you, you have to enter it and you have to have some courage and you have to have 324 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,680 some, uh, loyalty and perseverance in it. 325 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,480 But, um, it's, it's wonderful. 326 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:30,040 And if the only thing you're in it for is my, is your own comfort and your own happiness 327 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:36,200 and your own joy or, uh, that's when it gets really hard. 328 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:43,840 That's when it gets really when, when your quotient is just how happy am I, you're, you're 329 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,540 going to start to think, well, how, how can I get out of this? 330 00:23:47,540 --> 00:23:51,960 But once you're out of it, you're not going to be any happier because happy is that happiness 331 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:57,480 is that elusive, strange thing that you're never quite going to catch. 332 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,080 And when you do catch it, it's like sand in your hands. 333 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,240 It doesn't, it doesn't stay there very long. 334 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,400 You can't replicate the same. 335 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,520 Hey, if I do these inputs, I'll get this output. 336 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,760 Doesn't work that way. 337 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,560 And I'm glad you brought it back to thinking about how a thinking of others really in a 338 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,360 relationship that's so key. 339 00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:18,920 You can't be, this isn't for me. 340 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:27,460 And, um, when I've been most happy has ironically been not, well, I mean, maybe it's not ironic. 341 00:24:27,460 --> 00:24:32,360 Like just when I'm not thinking of myself and I'm thinking of my wife and how, oh, she's 342 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:38,040 in need or she, let me not be just thinking about, I'm not getting my needs met right 343 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,040 now. 344 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,240 Let me be patient. 345 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:41,280 Let me be gentle. 346 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:42,760 Let me listen. 347 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,680 This isn't what I want right now. 348 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:45,800 This is tough. 349 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:46,800 Let me listen. 350 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,040 Okay. 351 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,600 And then afterward I was like, I'm like, yeah, that was good. 352 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,880 That right there that it started off tough. 353 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,880 That ended up being a really great memory. 354 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:06,240 Let's, let's talk about, I'm glad we're talking about how awesome marriage is because it is 355 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,240 important. 356 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:08,440 It's important to God. 357 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:13,480 And I don't know if this is coincidence or not, but, uh, you know, Jesus here, he's talking 358 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,280 about the law, right? 359 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,760 This is kind of like the new Sinai, right? 360 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,040 You know, you've got Jesus going up a mountain and then he's talking about the law. 361 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:28,320 And right in the middle of all of these six examples, pretty much, he's talking about marriage. 362 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:36,760 And I want to understand, you know, for God, this must be really important, right? 363 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:45,000 Marriage, I think it mirrors the, the covenantal relationship that we enter into with him. 364 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:52,280 So how does marriage mirror our commitment to God and what does that say to the world? 365 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:53,280 Yeah. 366 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:59,320 There was one scripture that just popped up in my head like as soon as I heard this question 367 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:06,640 and it's interesting because you phrase the question in terms of our commitment to God. 368 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,160 And when we think about, when I think about my commitment to God, my commitment to God 369 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:20,720 is primarily because God has committed to me and I am constantly called higher because 370 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:26,560 I realize how, how committed, you know, when you think about the life of Jesus and how 371 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,320 he gave himself for us. 372 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,120 And that's the scripture I think about with this in Ephesians 5. 373 00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:35,280 It's like classic scripture on marriage. 374 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:40,880 It's probably one of the most challenging verses for any husband. 375 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:46,280 And it says, husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself 376 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,600 up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word 377 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:55,400 and to present her to himself as a radiant church without stain or wrinkle or any other 378 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,360 blemish, but holy and blameless. 379 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:02,160 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. 380 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,680 He who loves his wife loves himself. 381 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,480 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body just 382 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,400 as Christ does the church, for we are members of his body. 383 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,200 For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the 384 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,160 two will become one flesh. 385 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,000 This is a profound mystery, but I am talking about Christ and the church. 386 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,520 However, each one of you must also love his wife as he loves himself and the wife must 387 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:27,520 respect her husband. 388 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:33,840 And I mean, this is obviously just a beautiful passage of what it looks like to love. 389 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:41,000 What I find interesting is how Paul, he starts quoting about how the two are going to become 390 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:46,800 one flesh, but he doesn't actually, he's not even thinking about marriage. 391 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,880 He's thinking, wow, this is what Jesus did for the church. 392 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,400 And that just blows his mind. 393 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,800 It's a profound mystery. 394 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:00,960 And so when I think about marriage and our commitment to God and God's commitment to 395 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:09,160 us, it's an incredible example because we show, we show our commitment to our spouses 396 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:14,000 and that is a picture of how God does not give up on us. 397 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,360 And we also do not give up on God, right? 398 00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:22,640 No matter what happens, no matter if it's easy or hard, we see that this relationship is 399 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,160 far more valuable than any present difficulty. 400 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:33,200 And we're going to stick in with it, just that's what Jesus did for us. 401 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,920 So that's really what came to mind for me. 402 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,120 I'm glad you read it because that was the exact scripture I was thinking of too. 403 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,000 That's what came to my mind too. 404 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,240 And I'm not going to say anything more because I think you just beautifully summarized it. 405 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,840 Well, okay, I'll say one more thing. 406 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,960 Just want to reiterate what you were saying there about what it communicates to the world 407 00:28:53,960 --> 00:29:00,840 because that commitment is so important and I think divorce tells a lie. 408 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:06,120 It tells a lie to the world about Christ's love for us. 409 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:11,440 And as Christians, I think we should do everything possible to keep our marriages together and 410 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:12,440 holy. 411 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:13,440 Yeah. 412 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:19,080 When I think about, I think about the fact that Christianity is about the, it's about 413 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:28,040 the journey, it's about as you live becoming more and more and more like Christ, the transformation 414 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:36,240 of your natural self with your sinful nature into something beyond that, into something 415 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,720 that's more spiritual, that is more like Jesus. 416 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:46,000 And as long as we live, we're going to be on that journey. 417 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,680 That journey doesn't end until the other side of eternity. 418 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:58,480 And I think of my marriage in the same way is there, the man that I am today is a transformed 419 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,280 person from the man that I was when I married Shemitra. 420 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:09,320 And there are things about my life that there are strengths that I have now that I did not 421 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:16,280 have then that come from her, that come from our relationship together. 422 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:24,920 And she would say the same thing is that I am, and just a really brief example, I am, 423 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:32,120 I'm a very sedentary, want to stay in one place person. 424 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,320 An ideal vacation for me is to sit in my house and read. 425 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,360 That's what I could do during my vacation. 426 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,760 For Shemitra, it's to travel. 427 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,200 And Shemitra will want to travel at the drop of a hat. 428 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,120 And so, you know, there are weaknesses in that. 429 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,720 How do you travel at the drop of a hat when you've got to pay for it and you've got to 430 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,160 do all this stuff and you've got to do it? 431 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,400 And that's what I would say to her when she wanted to go. 432 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,720 And I would say, well, how can you go unless you sit and you plan and you do all this stuff? 433 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,680 And we would argue about that and we would butt heads about that. 434 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:10,600 And we would think, well, can I be happy with this person because she wants to be this way 435 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,520 and I want to be that way. 436 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,600 And divorces happen over less than that. 437 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:22,600 But there's a part of me because I love her, because I'm committed to her, because I'm 438 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:28,720 loyal to her and she to me, I thought, what do I need to learn from this? 439 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,240 Maybe I need to be more that way. 440 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,320 And she thought the same, maybe I need to be more that way. 441 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:41,960 And it transformed us both into something different, into something better. 442 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,400 And we did that together. 443 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:52,520 And the notion of separating that is repulsive. 444 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:53,760 It's strange. 445 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,760 It's weird. 446 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,960 And you know, so I think it's the transformation. 447 00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:03,880 Yeah, that is really cool. 448 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,080 I think I'm a lot cooler than I used to be before Netta. 449 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,800 She's helped me to get to the point. 450 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:11,800 Come on. 451 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:12,800 She's so quick. 452 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,840 She's no nonsense. 453 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,160 You know exactly what you're thinking and feeling. 454 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,240 And when I first met her, it was a real hard thing for me to do. 455 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,000 You can understand what I was thinking or feeling. 456 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:30,240 And being around her, modeling it for me was so helpful for me to grow up. 457 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,520 Well, we live in a me-centric, feeling-based society. 458 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,200 We kind of talked about that a little bit at the beginning of this episode. 459 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,640 And if something doesn't feel good for me, I should avoid it, that sort of thinking. 460 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,480 And how easy that creeps into marriage. 461 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,080 It's the opposite, of course, of what Jesus teaches. 462 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,200 And later when Jesus talks about this topic, he quotes Genesis. 463 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,480 So in Matthew 19:4, he says, 464 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,960 At the beginning the Creator made them male and female and said, 465 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,560 For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 466 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,720 and the two will become one flesh. 467 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,120 So they're no longer two, but one flesh. 468 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,400 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate. 469 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,640 What do we learn, kind of going back to the beginning here a little bit, 470 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,400 what do we learn about love from the institution of marriage? 471 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:24,960 Yeah, I feel like we're hitting the same thing from a million different angles here. 472 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,440 Because when I think about this, I think about the scripture that gets read 473 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,560 at a whole bunch of weddings, 1 Corinthians 13, 474 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:39,640 talks about the attributes of love and I'll read it. 475 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,120 It's love is patient, love is kind. 476 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,840 It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, 477 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,720 it does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking. 478 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,840 It is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 479 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,880 Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. 480 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,960 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 481 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,240 Love never fails. 482 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,920 This is certainly not restricted to marriage and I, 483 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,240 this is just an incredible definition of what love is in general. 484 00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:17,600 What I am thinking about is that many of these things don't make sense 485 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,520 when things are good and easy. 486 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,760 So, I mean the obvious one is like persevering. 487 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,320 You can't persevere if there's nothing challenging going on 488 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,480 and you can't really be patient, unless there's something to be patient about. 489 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,360 You can't demonstrate that you're not easily angered 490 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,360 unless there's a reason why you could get angry. 491 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:45,680 And all of this is basically like you can only really be loving 492 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,400 if you're in really close community with people, 493 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,280 because that's when love is tested and that's when love is demonstrated. 494 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,560 And there's many ways of being in very close community with people 495 00:34:54,560 --> 00:35:00,120 and marriage is definitely a prime example of that with one person. 496 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,760 Like we're gonna do it all together and you know, 497 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:09,560 it's gonna provide many opportunities to learn the nuances 498 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:14,120 of what these different definitions of love actually look like. 499 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:19,720 Yeah, love is a thing that comes from God. 500 00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:30,040 And it does not come from us naturally outside of God. 501 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,880 What comes from us naturally outside of God is just a desire 502 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:42,720 to just be everything that we want to be and to soothe our own flesh 503 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:48,600 and to take everything that we can before our flesh is done. 504 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:56,320 And for me, I think that what marriage teaches me about love is the... 505 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,960 And again, I go back to the transformation thing, 506 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:07,880 is I could not have imagined being the person that I am now. 507 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,200 There was nothing in me that would make me... 508 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,600 And I'm talking about the positive attributes I have now 509 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,000 because I've got many negative ones. 510 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,480 But love is... 511 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,960 And the thing for me is love is like a seed 512 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:32,720 and marriage is like everything that you do to make sure that that seed grows. 513 00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:35,000 You have to find the right place to plant it. 514 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,240 You have to find the right type of soil. 515 00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:39,760 You have to plant it at the right time. 516 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,360 You have to water it. 517 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,680 You have to make sure it gets the right amount of light. 518 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:44,360 You have to... 519 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,840 These are all things that you do. 520 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,320 But the miraculous thing, the thing that's from God, 521 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,480 is that somehow when you do all those things, something grows. 522 00:36:55,480 --> 00:37:01,800 And what grows is so different from what you originally planted. 523 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:06,040 And I think that what marriage shows us about love 524 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,120 is that all of that work that you do, 525 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,240 all of that discussing that you do, 526 00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:13,880 all of the talking that you do, 527 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,680 all of the praying that you do together, 528 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,480 all of the advice that you seek, 529 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,520 all of the investment that you make, 530 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,800 the emotional investment that you make, 531 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,840 it grows something and it's miraculous when you see it. 532 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:37,400 And I wish that I could explain exactly what it feels like. 533 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,480 But it is like a seed. 534 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,480 It's that miraculous thing that you plant it and it grows. 535 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,440 And am I talking about a marriage? 536 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,360 Am I talking about a relationship with God? 537 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:51,280 Yes, both. 538 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,120 Yeah, the two are related. 539 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,720 And I love that you said it's from God 540 00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:57,960 because we wouldn't know what love is 541 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,960 until he first loved us and then demonstrated to us 542 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,480 what love was by sending Christ when we were still sinners 543 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,160 to who died for us. 544 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,760 And that's how we know what love is. 545 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,600 And I think for me, this gets to some of the other things 546 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,680 we were talking about, that love is more than a feeling. 547 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,800 There's a, in marriage, we see there is a commitment made. 548 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,800 And so in that, I think we learn something 549 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,000 about how God deals with us and that he is decided. 550 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,080 He says he's placed his affection on us. 551 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,720 And that is a decision. 552 00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:37,120 And so love can be a decision. 553 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:38,840 It's not just whimsical like, 554 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,080 oh, I feel like loving you or not. 555 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,320 No, no, no, I decided I love you. 556 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:44,800 Therefore, I'm going to act. 557 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,040 I'm going to love you. 558 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:47,320 So it can be an action. 559 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:48,480 It can be a decision. 560 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,760 And it's not just the feelings, I think, are great. 561 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,480 They're like the spice of life. 562 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,360 But they should result in some ways 563 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,520 from these higher order functions that we, 564 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,880 we're not just meant to be, I don't know what to say, 565 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,680 animalistic or just feeling based, right? 566 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,720 It'd be like the tail wagging the dog. 567 00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:09,800 Definitely. 568 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,160 So without that structure, it's chaos. 569 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,080 Last question, we're going a little bit longer, 570 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:17,800 but I think that's okay. 571 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,040 Right after Jesus discusses marriage, 572 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,400 he transitions to the topic of oaths and vows, 573 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,600 which we'll talk about next time. 574 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,440 But it reminds me of Malachi 2:16. 575 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,800 I'm going to read the ESV version. 576 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,400 For the man who does not love his wife 577 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,320 but divorces her says the Lord, 578 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,120 the God of Israel covers his garment with violence, 579 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:38,960 says the Lord of hosts. 580 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,440 So guard yourselves in your spirit and do not be faithless. 581 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:48,080 God hates when we break the marriage vow. 582 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:49,880 How do you think marriage counseling 583 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,120 should address the seriousness of the marriage covenant? 584 00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,000 You know, the statement there that God hates 585 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,240 when we break the marriage vow, 586 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,000 I think it's just, it's kind of dumbfounding 587 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,660 that God, again, very extreme language, 588 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,000 again, just very serious. 589 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,840 And I think that 590 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,240 marriage counseling for me is something, 591 00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:31,280 and I think that marriage counseling is something 592 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,560 that should be happening all the time. 593 00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:36,320 And here's how I mean. 594 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:37,960 I think that we think of, 595 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,000 I think of marriage counseling in two ways. 596 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,480 I think of it as something that you get 597 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,880 as you're deciding to get premarital counseling. 598 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:48,960 I think of it in that way, 599 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,560 sort of preparing you for this is what it's going to mean 600 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,000 to be together. 601 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,760 And there's all kinds of implications about that 602 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,480 that go beyond the actual living together 603 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,440 and the sex and all of that stuff. 604 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,480 But then there's marriage counseling. 605 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,240 Then the next way you think of marriage counseling is, 606 00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:12,080 oh, now there's trouble. 607 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,600 Something has happened and someone has done something. 608 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,480 And now we have to get together to see 609 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,240 if we're going to stay together, 610 00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:28,800 if we can repair it or if it's irreparable. 611 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,400 And I think that's the way that sort of 612 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,880 the worldly notion of marriage counseling. 613 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,040 But I think that marriage counseling is something 614 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:39,920 that should be happening all the time, 615 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,400 not necessarily with a professional counselor, 616 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,160 with you sitting in an office and sitting on a chair 617 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:47,600 and doing all these exercises, 618 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,840 although I don't think that that's a bad idea, 619 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,040 but I think that it's something 620 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,560 that you have to be talking about all the time. 621 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,600 You have to talk about it within your marriage 622 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:02,000 and you really need the community around you 623 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,640 to be able to talk about it even outside of your marriage, 624 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,560 to get that help, to get that because it is work 625 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,000 that has to be ongoing. 626 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,520 Before it ends up in the do we stay together 627 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,040 or not scenario, let's get lots of help before that. 628 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,040 Before we enter into it. 629 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:20,480 And after we get started, 630 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,920 because I remember when I first got married, 631 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,440 there was a lot of navigating like, 632 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,440 how do I live with this person? 633 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,720 She thinks about things completely different than I do. 634 00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:37,080 And it took a long time for us to have a shared vocabulary. 635 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,640 We understood where we were coming from even. 636 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,840 And if it wasn't for people in our lives 637 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,560 that could see from the outside when we're like, 638 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,200 oh my gosh. 639 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,800 And see, hey, I think she just means this, Matt, 640 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,520 or Netta, I think Matt is thinking of it this way. 641 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,000 Oh, okay. 642 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:58,360 It's so helpful. 643 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,360 I'm glad you brought that up. 644 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:01,520 What do you think? 645 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,160 Yeah, I mean, the analogy that comes to mind for me 646 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:09,160 that I think is useful for a lot of guys 647 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,160 is like, let's think about just working out, right? 648 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:15,880 It's important for me to be healthy. 649 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,240 It's important for me to get the, 650 00:43:19,240 --> 00:43:21,680 for me to give my body what it needs 651 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,760 so I can do everything that I wanna do. 652 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:24,960 So I'm gonna prioritize this. 653 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:26,840 It's not something, maybe I like going to the gym, 654 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,760 maybe I don't like going to the gym, whatever I do, 655 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,680 I'm gonna find ways to keep on growing. 656 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,120 And it's never about, oh, I hit this level, 657 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:36,120 so I'm done, right? 658 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,520 There's always like another level to get to. 659 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,760 And the reason for that is because our physical health 660 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,160 is like very important. 661 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,700 And it impacts so many other things. 662 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,080 Our marriage covenant, our marriages 663 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:50,320 are incredibly important. 664 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:55,120 And they affect even more than our physical health 665 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:55,960 if you're married. 666 00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:00,960 It's what I tell people who are my age, 667 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:02,520 who are thinking about getting married 668 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,160 or who wanna get married. 669 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:05,960 I'm like, this is the person that you're gonna go 670 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,600 to every party with and leave every party from. 671 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,600 And you really wanna make sure that that's, 672 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:13,880 you feel really great about that. 673 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:15,120 But when you're in the marriage, 674 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:19,160 it's about how do we develop that relationship 675 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:20,760 where that's a joy, right? 676 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,840 And so it's this constant improvement 677 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,760 that I think is the key similarity 678 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,120 between marriage and working out 679 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,360 that you're always gonna be looking for ways to grow 680 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,960 because this is always gonna be important. 681 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,240 You're stuck with your body 682 00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:41,160 and you're stuck with your spouse. 683 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,200 Like you're saying, this is your spouse. 684 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,000 This is the person you've committed to. 685 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,160 Let's figure out how to make this work. 686 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:53,360 Yeah, I think that an operative word that I heard there, 687 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,840 I think I heard both of you guys talk about joy. 688 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:01,840 And joy is something that you have to work through. 689 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:08,560 If all you're in it for is happiness, 690 00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:14,680 you're not going to be able to stay together. 691 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,320 You're not gonna be able to. 692 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,400 And the counseling that you need to get 693 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,040 is it's so crucial. 694 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:29,040 And what I really wanna say here is there came a point 695 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,760 in my marriage where I had to realize 696 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:36,760 I can't get everything that I need from relationships 697 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,320 from my marriage. 698 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,000 And I've seen with a lot of people 699 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,480 that I know that mistake happening, 700 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:50,440 that people often say my wife is my best friend. 701 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,400 And I understand what they mean when they say that, 702 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,200 but there's a double edge to that. 703 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,360 If your wife is your best friend 704 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:03,360 and she's also your only friend, that's gonna be very difficult. 705 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,040 That's gonna be a situation 706 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,480 where there's not gonna be much joy 707 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:13,600 because we're meant to be together in community. 708 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,480 And marriage is from God, community is from God, 709 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:22,480 and a marriage can't thrive outside of a community. 710 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,760 A marriage is not a community. 711 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,520 I'm glad you made that important, it's a very important point. 712 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,120 I remember when I was dating around 713 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:37,000 and one of the things that drew me to Netta 714 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,200 was that I thought, well, here's someone 715 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,200 where I'm not the center of her world. 716 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:46,640 Very obviously I'm not, and it's Jesus, it's God. 717 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,320 And that was something that I really, really, 718 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,200 it made me feel secure. 719 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:57,200 Because I'm glad I let everyone I know, 720 00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,080 if I'm in a relationship with you in any way, 721 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:00,680 I will let you down. 722 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:05,000 And when we have Jesus, when you have God at the center, 723 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,580 that's how it's gonna work. 724 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,600 But I also liked what you were saying about joy. 725 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,320 And something that you said too, Tim, 726 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,560 as you were both talking about continuing to grow, 727 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,680 this is something, I made me think of this scripture 728 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,440 that in Colossians 2:6, it says, 729 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,600 therefore as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, 730 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,680 so walk in him, rooted and built up in him 731 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,160 and established in the faith, 732 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,840 just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. 733 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,280 And it made me think, you know, 734 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:38,880 we've got this relationship with God 735 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,280 and that should never grow stale. 736 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:42,880 It should be growing. 737 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,500 Just as we started, just as we fell in love with Christ, 738 00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:49,560 we should remember that and continue to grow 739 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,440 in faith and abounding and with thanksgiving. 740 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,680 So likewise, our marriages should be that way. 741 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,160 They should be reflections of the relationship 742 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,600 that we should all have with Jesus where they are growing. 743 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,760 And I think when we have marriage, 744 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,280 and I think this is so important to just reiterate, 745 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,840 it should be a commitment that is for life 746 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:14,880 that we're committed to. 747 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,720 And when we have that as like, 748 00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:20,680 we've burned the bridges and there's no turning back 749 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,080 and we're committed, I'm totally invested with you. 750 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:24,560 I'm committed to you. 751 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,280 That is so reassuring. 752 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:28,520 This has been really fun. 753 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:31,000 This has been great actually. 754 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,680 I just, it's a tough subject, 755 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,600 but I'm glad that we were able to talk about it 756 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,900 and talk about how wonderful marriage is supposed to be. 757 00:48:39,900 --> 00:48:46,900 It's not always easy, but it's worth it. 758 00:48:46,900 --> 00:48:49,700 Yeah, I know I've appreciated this conversation 759 00:48:49,700 --> 00:48:54,700 because it's, I think coming into it, 760 00:48:54,700 --> 00:48:59,220 and starting to prepare, I was thinking more about 761 00:48:59,220 --> 00:49:01,500 the negative or the way, this is so hard, 762 00:49:01,500 --> 00:49:04,700 and we talked a lot in the episode about this is hard, 763 00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:06,540 but there's such promise, right? 764 00:49:06,540 --> 00:49:09,500 There's such opportunity for us to see 765 00:49:09,500 --> 00:49:12,660 more clearly who God is, for us to grow ourselves, 766 00:49:12,660 --> 00:49:15,060 for us to be transformed and to help transform 767 00:49:15,060 --> 00:49:18,220 those around us, especially our spouses, 768 00:49:18,220 --> 00:49:20,740 just as we love unconditionally. 769 00:49:20,740 --> 00:49:25,340 So yeah, I think this has been very encouraging to me. 770 00:49:25,340 --> 00:49:28,020 Yeah, and marriage just gets a bad rap. 771 00:49:29,140 --> 00:49:34,140 I think that the sort of the popular culture notion 772 00:49:34,500 --> 00:49:38,900 of marriage is that, well, that's where the fun 773 00:49:38,900 --> 00:49:43,900 ends in a relationship, and that's where you get beat down, 774 00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:45,500 that's where you get worn down, 775 00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:48,700 and I think particularly from the male point of view, 776 00:49:48,700 --> 00:49:53,700 the hen-packed worn-down husband is just a worn-out trope 777 00:49:54,580 --> 00:49:58,740 in almost every bit of entertainment that you see, 778 00:49:58,740 --> 00:50:02,540 and if you've got a marriage that's a real marriage, 779 00:50:02,540 --> 00:50:03,780 that doesn't exist. 780 00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:08,580 That guy is not a real person. 781 00:50:08,580 --> 00:50:13,580 He is as made up as anything else in a movie or in a book. 782 00:50:14,900 --> 00:50:19,900 And yeah, this has been a good conversation. 783 00:50:19,980 --> 00:50:20,820 Thanks guys. 784 00:50:20,820 --> 00:50:21,660 Thanks.