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Hey, I'm Matt Brownell.

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And I'm Van Owens.

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And I'm Tim Adams.

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Welcome to Climbing the Mountain, where we dive into the scriptures and discuss themes,

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connections, and real life application.

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We're kicking off a series here where we're going to examine the Sermon on the Mount and

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discuss implications for this teaching for Christians today.

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All right, well, welcome back.

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This is going to be our last installment of Wrestling with the Word, which is what we've

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been talking about for the past two episodes.

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There's been a lot here, and we started by talking about debatable matters or matters

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of opinion in Romans 14.

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And I think our main conclusion there was the manner in which we're interacting with

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one another.

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We need to have firm convictions based on the scriptures, but having those convictions

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does not preclude us from treating one another with respect.

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And remembering that Christ died for each of us, and that the spirit lives in each of

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us.

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And then this last time, we just camped on this question of how do we know what is essential

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and what is debatable?

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And honestly, I don't think we came up with a clear picture.

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We're wrestling with that question as individuals and as the three of us.

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But there were some big picture takeaways.

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And I think Van kept on talking about having a process and that process being rooted in

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the Word and being rooted in community.

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I think that's actually unified a lot of what we talked about.

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I shared about the much broader community of disciples from all times and all places

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and going back to the historical creeds, not as a placing them over scripture, but as trying

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to get a sense of what is the spirit been moving throughout the Christian church for

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all time.

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And now we're really trying to hone in here on some last few questions.

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And we're going to talk about hermeneutics.

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But before we get to that, we want to talk about spiritual discernment.

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So we've, as it's been clear from our conversation, not every matter has been spelled out in the

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Bible for us word for word.

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It's kind of why we have debatable matters in the first place, maybe.

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But there are some places where we do need to infer a conviction.

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And faced with that reality, is there a larger principle that we can employ to help us understand

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what God's will is?

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And really, there's like, I'm asking, what's the principle that we need to have spiritual

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discernment, basically?

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And so with that, what are the pluses and minuses of developing this so-called spiritual

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discernment?

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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I think it reminds me, it goes back to what Van was saying, actually, about process, because

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I think spiritual discernment is something that is developed over time.

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And a couple of scriptures came to mind when I was thinking about this.

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And I'm just going to read both of them.

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The first is in Hebrews.

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In Hebrews 5:11, it says, we have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it

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clear to you because you no longer try to understand.

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In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you

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the elementary truths of God's word all over again.

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You need milk, not solid food.

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Anyone who lives on milk being still an infant is not acquainted with the teaching about

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righteousness.

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But solid food is for the mature who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish

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good from evil.

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Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward

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to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death

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and to faith in God, construction about cleansing rights, the laying on of hands, the resurrection

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of the dead, and eternal judgment, and God permitting we will do so.

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I wanted to read the second part of that, which is the beginning of chapter 6 because

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it reminded me of some of these quote unquote essential matters.

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I think the writer of Hebrews spells out some of those essential matters are, but then

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he says to move beyond that, right?

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And how do you do that?

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Sometimes people have poo pooed milk.

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Oh, milk's so bad.

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You should have, you know, I want a juicy steak.

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And then they get critical about the sermon they just heard at church.

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Oh, that wasn't to my rarefied standards.

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That was all milk.

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Well, you know what?

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Milk is really good too.

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And the writer of Hebrews isn't saying anything bad about milk.

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Milk is what an infant needs when you're just starting out.

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You can't have, you can't, you'll choke on a steak.

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You need milk.

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And milk is wonderful, has everything you need to grow and develop and then eventually

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develop those teeth that you can use eventually to start having solid food.

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And it, you know, starts off pretty gross and, you know, mushy.

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But then eventually, you know, you get up and you older and you get a steak and boy,

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that does taste good.

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But you would never be able to appreciate it when you're just a little baby.

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And I think that is the process that is, is being described here.

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You need pure spiritual milk.

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That's a good thing.

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And so you need to, to really be regenerated by the word of God in your life daily.

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You need to have this saturate your mind because the world around us is pushing it's pushing

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us into its mold.

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And I'm going off.

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I'm just going to keep going here because it's a nice transition into the next verse,

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Romans 12:1, it says, I appeal to you, therefore, brothers, by the mercies of

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God to present your bodies as living sacrifices, wholly and acceptable to God, which is your

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spiritual worship.

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Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that

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by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

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And what I love, there's so many things I love about this verse, but these verses, but

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it's just this idea of, you know, the world is trying to push us into its mold.

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Whether you realize or not, everywhere around you, you look around.

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It is the world is interacting on you.

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And what do we need to do?

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We need to have the word of God interact on us and we need to be transformed from the

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inside out.

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We need to be renewed in our mind.

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And then, and only then does it say we testing you may discern what he's actually saying

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is here is you will begin to desire the things that God desires.

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You'll start to develop a spiritual sense.

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And, and this is again, I'll just repeat what the writer of Hebrew said, who by constant

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use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

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This is the training that this is the process that we go through.

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So I love that.

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And because it felt like very concrete to me, and I'll just say back the, that process

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that I heard, if we want to discern what God's word is saying, we first have to lean into

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what is obviously essential and allow the radical reorienting of our perspective and

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our hearts and our worldview to change based on the reality that we see in scripture.

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And then in faith through the power of the spirit, he's going to bit by bit help us

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as we're training ourselves.

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He's going to be transforming us so we can continually see more and more and more.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And you, you kind of stole the scripture.

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I was going to read that Matt Romans chapter 12, because that's what does it to me.

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And I think the, the doxology that comes before that in Romans chapter 12:33, it

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says, Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God, how unsearchable his

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judgments and his paths beyond tracing out who has known the mind of the Lord and who

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has been his counselor, who has ever given to God that God should repay them for from

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him and through him and for him are all things to him be the glory forever.

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Amen.

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And, you know, I think that we have to, we have to keep in mind that there's so much

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of worldly knowledge that is out there and that people sort of leverage for the sake

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of knowledge.

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And if we're not careful, we can slide into that mold where we're just leveraging our

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knowledge for the sake of knowledge and using it rather than understanding that there's

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some of this that is just unsearchable.

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There's some of it is just beyond us that we won't know that we may not, that we won't

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know in this life that we may never know, but that as we sort of lean in to that relationship,

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relationship with God, becoming more and more like him and remembering that this is about

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relationship and not about knowledge.

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It's about relationship with God, not about knowledge.

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It's about our relationships with one another, not about who knows what and how much do I

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know and how valuable is my knowledge compared to yours.

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It's about relationship.

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And in that process, we become more able to, I love what it says in Romans 12 and my translation

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is a little different from yours, but it says then you will be able to test and approve.

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To test and approve.

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It's sort of like a kind of spiritual experimentation that we're doing where as we go through our

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lives, it's not, and it's not so much about the knowledge about finding the answer as

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it is the process, the testing and approving, which is what we do when we're in our times

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with God and our personal devotional times.

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It's what we do with each other.

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It's what we do in our fellowship.

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It's what we do in the community of the church, the testing and approving that happens all

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the time.

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And I've read other translations that say by testing, you may approve it like combining

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the two in a way that it feels like you've reoriented your desires even in a way.

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And you're starting to think, you're starting to change the way that you think about things

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in view of God's mercies and in view of all we have to be grateful for in God, which was

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in contrast to what you saw in the first chapter of Romans, where the people who were

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ungrateful and failed to remember their Creator.

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Yeah.

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So, I mean, there's, there's a lot more we could say there.

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I know we're, we're closing in on time here.

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And are we already?

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I know.

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Well, in some ways, there's a lot more to say.

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I, I think it's be useful.

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We've talked a lot about this process of, yeah, I mean, I think in a sentence, I just

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think about coming to the scriptures with humility and being willing to do that in

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community and allow the spirit from my brothers and sisters to influence how I see the word.

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Like big picture.

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And I, with that said, like we're about to dive into a bunch of topics in Matthew five

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that we are going to have different convictions on or might have different convictions on.

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And I think it might be useful for our listeners to have a sense of why that might be and where

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we're coming from.

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And really that kind of gets to this question of hermeneutics and like how we're interpreting

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scripture.

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So this might be kind of like a fire, uh, our lightning round for each of us, but I

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was wondering if we could like briefly explain what's the hermeneutic that you have?

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How do you approach interpreting scripture and how might that come into play?

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Yeah.

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In the coming episodes.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Uh, lightning, I don't know.

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That's a, that's pretty fast.

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I'm thinking about lightning talks.

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You got like five minutes.

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So I think the first thing, and this is maybe the most important thing is, um, you know,

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when you get to debatable matters, I think there are other things you, you want to do

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as an addition, but the very first thing, regardless of whatever it is, find all the

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scriptures you can about the topic and let these scriptures speak to you.

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And you might think that one is against another, but no, uh, the word of God is the word of

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God.

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And there are, so you, it's a, it's a reorienting yourself to what the word is saying and, and

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being okay with a little bit of tension, because in that tension, there's great opportunity

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to learn.

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And that's usually where you find something a deeper meaning.

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So I think the first step for me is, is definitely let's look at all the scriptures on a subject

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and start there.

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And I think, and I agree with that.

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I think that that's, that's sort of my first step as well.

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And the next step for me is to be, um, to be a little bit bookish about it.

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In other words, to look at those scriptures and other translations, to, uh, look at,

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look at key terms in, uh, in, in some type of a lexicon that, because understanding that

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I'm looking at a translation of something that was written in a different language,

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um, an ancient language, a language that I do not speak.

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And it wasn't written in a culture that I do not understand.

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So I want to understand, um, as much as I can, their idioms, I want to understand the

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cultural references there.

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And I don't want to, I don't want to read into it some 21st century interpretation that

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is inappropriate, uh, particularly when it comes to when you're reading a bunch of scriptures

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and some of them seem to conflict, because maybe they don't.

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Yep.

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You know, when I, when I say to you guys, I got out of the car today, the guy blew his

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horn at me and I got upset and I was going to go yell at him, but the dude got out of

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his car and he was like 10 feet tall.

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You know when I say that, that he wasn't 10 feet tall because nobody is 10 feet tall.

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You interpret that as that's a big dude.

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But if that somehow gets kept as a word of wisdom for people 3000 years down the line,

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they might think that he actually was 10 feet tall because they don't understand my cultural

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reference.

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So I want to understand as much of that as I can to that.

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So that's sort of the second step that I take in addition to what you just said, Matt.

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And I do the same thing.

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I think the language is super important.

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There's some good references.

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I mean, it's amazing what's on the internet now.

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Some of it's really good.

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Right.

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Some of it not so much, but there's a, you know, I think Bible Hub is a good one and

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Blue Letter Bible.

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If you go there, you can type in the verse and you can get the Greek or if it's Hebrew,

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the Hebrew and you can look at the words and you can dive down and, and figure out how

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they're used.

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You can see all the passages of scripture that they're used in.

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And then you can start to, oh, how is this?

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Other things that I think it's important if you're able to, and my dad gave me a great

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book one time of terms as they were used extra biblically as close to the time period that

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they were used to understand how was this used outside of the Bible?

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And some of that is online as well.

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But that's, that could be a useful additional thing.

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But yeah, trying to get back to the language and understand, you know, because when the

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trans, when people translate stuff, they're making choices and you might not understand,

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oh gee, like you said, Van, though that actually is the same thing.

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They're not in contradiction at all.

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Other things that I like to use, if I'm looking at a, let's say I'm studying a book, I'll

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pick up different commentaries on it and I'll look at, you know, there are, you know, resources

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for to try to understand from an archaeological background, from a cultural background, like

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true people, I am not, and I'm never going to be, I wish I had time, but I don't.

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I'm not going to be an authority on ancient languages.

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I'm not going to be an authority on dig sites, and I'm not going to be authority on lots

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of things like that other people are and have written.

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And so I think going through some of those kind of resources is helpful to try to understand.

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And again, when you read this stuff, it is not the Bible.

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And so you have to understand like this is an author who has written and depending on

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the commentary could be very biased.

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And so you have to go into that with understanding, well, what can I get?

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And are they making a fair point and is, or is this their opinion?

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So there's a little bit of discernment in there as well.

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So how, I guess, are there any other key principles that you guys would add to like what your

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hermeneutic is?

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Okay, so I would add one more thing.

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And as much as possible, I think you should try to put yourself in the position of someone

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who would be hearing this and think about the audience because there's a lot in here.

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The Bible was written when you're looking at the New Testament.

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There are the Gospels and you've got letters and you've got, then you've got Revelation,

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which is a different type of writing, but you have an audience in mind.

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And so there is a point to what they're making it.

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And it's not just, I mean, I've heard this described other ways like, you know, you don't

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just pull out a scripture and this is a pearl of wisdom today.

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No, no, you've got arguments that the writer is making.

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And so if, you know, English class wasn't your favorite subject where they're asking

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you to write a, you know, like that actually comes in handy to be able to do analysis of

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scripture.

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You kind of have to look at, well, who's the audience?

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What's the point they're making?

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And trying to get to how someone would interpret something like what you were saying, Van,

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is true, like the 10 foot tall, like there are things that people would say at a different

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time that we might not understand today or ways they would abbreviate arguments, you

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know, in rabbinic tradition because that was an oral tradition.

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So they would perhaps abbreviate something and oftentimes they would just take, here's

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the thing that's different than what the rest of the culture already assumed.

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So if you don't know what the rest of the culture already assumed, you're at a handicap

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right away.

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That's where a lot of this gets, when you get to debatable matters, especially like that,

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that's helpful to know.

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And I think that the one thing that I would add to is, particularly when you're looking

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at a bunch of different scriptures about the same topic, when you find some that seem to

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contradict, you need to study deep enough in enough scripture to know what's normative,

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to know what is, what is the prevailing thought, because sometimes something is put in there

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just for the sake of tension.

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You know, the Bible is, it's literary as well.

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And so part of literature is there's tension that's put in intentionally to create, to

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contribute to the narrative.

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And so you have to figure out what's normative.

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And when you find, when you're looking through a bunch of scriptures and you find one that

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seems to not say what the other ones say, be careful not to just pull that one out and

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say, well, this is what I believe because it says this in, in this book without considering

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all the other things that we've talked about.

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And I hope our listeners right now aren't overwhelmed with all of this, like, oh, I

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have to be a scholar.

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And, well, okay.

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I mean, I think some of that, there is a general sense of like, it's good to wrestle with this

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and you should try your best.

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I think you can also lean on your brothers and sisters in Christ.

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And this is part of the community piece, right?

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So you have a weird thought about something and you're like, oh, gee, you can talk to

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other people.

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And I would encourage you to find someone maybe who's been around a little longer than

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you that has maybe wrestled with it longer, or, you know, you can talk to other ministers.

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You know, there are resources for you in the body of Christ.

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You know, we're all supposed to build each other up.

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And so that's, that's, there are functions that other people, you know, can help serve

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in the body and wrestle.

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Yeah.

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It's very important to, when you're, when you're doing these type of things to go in

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the strength that you have, as the Lord said to Gideon, if you're, if you're not a, a scholarly

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type person, that doesn't mean that you're excluded from this kind of, you're not excluded

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from this kind of exercise.

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Use what you have.

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God has given you some kind of gift that can contribute to the community.

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Um, yeah.

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So as we close, I guess I just go and do a, add what's different from my way of thinking

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from you guys, because I think it'll be helpful.

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Most of what you guys said, I'm like totally in agreement with.

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And I, I tend to lean more towards taking scripture literally to start.

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And then when you do look at all the scriptures together and, and taking them literally means

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that they just don't make any sense together.

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Then you start looking for the nuance.

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But in general, I, I, I find that I would rather take Jesus as word to be, and be too

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literal than to go the opposite side of the extreme where I'm thinking, Oh, like he must

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not have really meant that.

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Right.

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And so that's, that's a big point.

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And there's obviously nuance there when you put all the scriptures together.

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And I, well, I take this one literally.

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This is ridiculous.

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But I think that's one other thing.

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And then the other big thing is like, yeah, when we think about where do we go in the

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community to, to get that extra discernment.

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I also find commentaries extremely useful by find the best commentaries are the ones

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from people who are dead.

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Yeah.

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And I tend to, I tend to want to go, what did the, what did the original church, the

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early church think about something, not what one guy wrote about.

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And he has an opinion that other people don't agree with.

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But what was, again, it was the consensus of the early church on a particular topic.

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And the reason I find that helpful, I'm going to look up at a commentary.

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I would love to have the commentary be someone who's actually a native speaker in the language

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that the New Testament's written in, who did live in the culture or was very close to the

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culture and who had the least amount of time from the, from Jesus himself and the apostles

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for the information to kind of get lost.

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And so you'll hear that from me.

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You've already heard it in other episodes, but you'll hear it from me again.

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But I, I, I did just want to close us out.

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This particular episode was, was really challenging for me to get ready for because this, I have

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felt so much angst over, I don't know how to be confident about all of my beliefs.

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And that word all has felt really important because I'm confident about a lot of my beliefs.

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But there are some that I just wrestle with and I'm like, I don't know how I can be sure

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I'm right.

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And that, that was, that's, that's been very challenging.

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It continues to be something I wrestle with, but I was reading, I was reading Mark 9

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and someone's, someone's commentary on Mark 9.

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And it's the story of the father who is coming to Jesus.

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The disciples couldn't heal his son.

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And he said to Jesus like, basically please heal my son if you can.

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And Jesus says, if you can, everything is possible for him who believes.

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And the father said, I do believe, help me overcome my unbelief.

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And Jesus's response to that was not to reprimand him.

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It wasn't to reject him.

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It wasn't say you need to have full belief before I can do anything.

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He like healed the son.

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Like he worked in the middle of his imperfect belief.

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And when I, when I read that, I have not, I do cry, but I don't normally cry reading

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the Bible.

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I don't remember a time.

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It probably has happened, but I don't remember a time where I just started crying reading

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the Bible.

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I just broke into tears because it gave me such hope that I am, I feel completely compelled

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to be in this process of wrestling with the word individually and in community and to

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really spend my life trying to understand more and more.

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What is God saying?

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But to have the, the hope that God is going to be faithful and he's going to work in me

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and through me and in spite of me, in spite of my imperfect faith, that is, it's been

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tremendously encouraging prepping for this.

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So I think we'll, I think we'll end it there.

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But thank you guys for this time.

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It's great.

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That's a great ending.

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Thanks.