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Hey, Brian here, editor and mixer of this podcast.

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And before we jump into this episode, I wanted to give you a heads up that it's going to

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contain some mature subject matter around the topic of lust and how Jesus taught about

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sexual integrity.

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If this kind of discussion would not be beneficial or maybe not age appropriate to everyone you're

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listening with, then you might want to skip this one.

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Hey, I'm Matt Brownell.

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And I'm Van Owens.

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And I'm Tim Adams.

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Welcome to Climbing the Mountain, where we dive into the scriptures and discuss themes,

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connections, and real life application.

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We're kicking off a series here where we're going to examine the sermon on the mount and

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discuss implications for this teaching for Christians today.

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Great.

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Well, welcome back to our series on lust.

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Right now we had a great discussion last time introducing Matthew 5:27-30.

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And I'll read that here to set the context again.

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Jesus says, you have heard that it was said you shall not commit adultery.

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But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed

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adultery with her in his heart.

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If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away.

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For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown

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into hell.

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And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.

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For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into

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hell.

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So when we were talking about this before, we had a couple of key observations that we

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walked away with.

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One is that Jesus is being really intense here about condemning what we're doing with

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our thoughts, not just our actions.

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And he's making the claim that our thoughts and what's happening in our thought life is

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just as important as the actions that we are doing on a day-to-day basis.

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And we talked about why is that and basically that our thoughts are the place where our

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actions come out of.

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And if I have my thoughts in a mindset of desiring someone or lusting after someone,

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I can't think about the good that I am called to do.

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So we talked about that and we talked about how we don't think that Jesus is being literal

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when he talks about cutting off our hand or gouging out our eye, but he's getting at

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the seriousness of this issue because it's going to impact our eternal destiny.

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So we should be treating it like that.

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And then finally, Matt read 1 Peter 2 about how we are in a war against the passions of

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our flesh, which are waging war against our soul.

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And so the battlefield of lust is one that we are totally surrounded by in our culture

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right now and is something that we have to treat that way.

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And Van, you had a great illustration of that, of going into that selective service and thinking

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about, oh, I might go into war in the future.

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I'm going to be surrounded by all this incredible evil.

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And if I'm in that setting, the only thing I can do is to either give up or stand and

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fight.

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We're trying to fight.

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And I think just to kick us off there, I wanted to draw on that point that you were making,

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Van, that this is just all around us.

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And I think it's really interesting because our culture does condone lust generally, but

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it kind of has a complicated relationship with it at the same time.

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I was actually just listening to a song I think is becoming really popular on TikTok

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that someone close to me shared.

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And it's called Victoria's Secret.

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And the whole point of the song is that this Victoria's Secret is that Victoria was made

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up by a dude.

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That there's all of this propaganda that is being thrown at, in this case, women about

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how they should look and what is valuable about them that is driven by lust.

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And it's in, I think, overwhelmingly the majority of cases, they're driven by the lust of men.

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And obviously there's a complex interplay between the sexes.

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And this is not just a single gender thing, but I thought that was just a really pithy

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statement from the song of, wow, people might say lust is okay.

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But then they experience the effects of it and it's not so okay.

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And so you were talking, Matt, about how we can really be an incredible light here.

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And so I was just thinking about, wow, what would it look like if we took Jesus really

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seriously here and really cut out all the lust in our hearts, in our, like if the church

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was completely free from this sin.

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Right?

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What a shining light it could be.

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And how would that even manifest itself in our relationships, our society, etc.?

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I wish that we lived in that kind of, I'll say, utopia where this was not so pervasive.

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I remember when I was, I still remember the first time I saw a Dirty Magazine, it was

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in third grade.

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And it was underneath a, it was at our school and it was underneath some stairs.

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Someone had like, here, this is a good place to hide it.

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And then the kids would like, hey, come take a look at this.

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And also in third grade was the first time I saw my first Dirty Movie.

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I went to a friend's house, you know, my parents vetted a lot of the people I hung out with.

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Well, they didn't vet the friends of friends because my friend then took me to another

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friend's house and their parents were away and they had a Dirty Movie playing.

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And I still remember both of those experiences.

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They're emblazoned on my mind.

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I wish I've prayed for them to like go and, you know, if I'm not thinking about it, great.

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It's good.

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But it's sad that that kind of stuff can get into our, you know, into us, you know, into

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our, it goes straight to our hearts.

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And then it does begin this war.

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And when you're little, you, unless people are talking to you about this, I encourage

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anyone who's a parent, have talks with your kids about this kind of stuff.

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The world is moves a lot faster than it did when I was a kid.

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And there are so many more avenues for your kids to be exposed to this junk, have talks

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with them.

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But it is a battle.

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And if you're not talking about it, that's also where darkness can keep, you know, and

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it grows and grows and grows until it will try to totally have you.

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And yeah, I think that, you know, we, we, we say over and over again how the world really

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condones lust, but even in popular culture, it's a complicated relationship, you know,

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how far is too far?

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And you know, you can, you can watch, you know, pornography is pretty much accepted

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unless it's child pornography.

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Then you can go to jail for that.

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But what, where is, where is the line?

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And where do you draw the line?

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And there's all this, there's controversy about what's art and what's pornography and

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about freedom of speech, conflating it with freedom of speech and conflating it with all

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these other things.

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It's an uncomfortable relationship.

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And you know, even in the, in the politics of office places, you know, it's the place

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where I worked, it is very strict.

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If I have an objectionable picture in my office that somebody walks by and perceives as objectionable

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and they say to me, that picture offends me and I have to come to your office for meetings,

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please take it down and I don't take it down.

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I could lose my job over that.

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And it could be whatever they think is objectionable.

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It's their standard, not mine.

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And so yet the, the, the relationship is very complicated and the lines are very fuzzy until

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you come to Jesus who says, no, it's not fuzzy.

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It's not fuzzy.

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If you, if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, then you've committed adultery.

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If you, if you objectify somebody like that, then you've crossed the line.

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Then you're losing the battle.

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Then the  enemy that is everywhere around you has begun to take you.

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So you have to, you have to fight.

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Can I bring up another thing that I think is in this passage where, which is also another

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one of those, you know, really, I don't know, is this such a big deal?

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You know, we've talked a lot about looking at someone lustfully, but it seems like Jesus

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is also taking aim at masturbation here.

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He says, if your right hand causes you to sin.

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So first of all, is that, do you think what is he's getting at?

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And then why, why do you think masturbation is wrong and is it always wrong?

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Is there ever a time that maybe it's okay?

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Yeah.

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I think that this is, this is not a question that I've thought about super deeply.

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And so I just want to like acknowledge that as, you know, I saw it, this was coming up

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in this conversation and particularly with that, if your right hand causes you to sin,

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I think that's probably a pretty good guess at what Jesus is talking about there.

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I haven't thought about that.

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With the issue of masturbation, it's always been pretty simple on my mind because there,

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for the vast majority of cases that I know about masturbation is just intricately linked

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with lust.

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There's, there's, there's a fantasizing that's happening or it's being accompanied by pornography.

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And so those things are almost always connected.

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If there's a case where masturbation is not connected to lust, I think where I'm at right

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now is I don't know.

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I really haven't experienced like, I've never heard about that in, in my life because that

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just doesn't, so I don't know, I don't know if it exists.

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But if it does, I feel like that's something I have to think more deeply about.

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But my guess is that's kind of a fringe.

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It might be, it might be a really real issue for someone who's listening right now.

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My guess is that for the majority of people, that's not the root thing.

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That's really the issue at hand.

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So I'm curious what you guys have to say.

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Yeah, I, I, I saw this question too and I thought, when Matt asked that question, there's

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going to be a pause.

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And whichever one of us is courageous enough and is going to answer it first and it's probably

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going to be Tim because I don't, I don't know the answer to it, but I think that, and

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this sort of gets at something that I know we're going to talk about maybe eventually

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in this episode is the relationship between why, why adultery, the talk of lust comes

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so hard on the heels of talk about adultery, that those, those two concepts get conflated.

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And I think that when you think of sex and sexuality, the way that it is prescribed

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in the Bible, it is perhaps, I don't think even perhaps, it is the most intimate type

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of relationship between two individuals.

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And that masturbation is the ultimate perversion of that because you're taking something that

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is meant for what I will call righteous intimacy and hoarding it and keeping it to yourself.

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Masturbation is an act that is probably the, the pinnacle of selfishness.

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And so my, my gut tells me, no, it can't ever be right.

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But if, if it is, I don't know if it is something that's a part of an intimate relationship

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between a man and a husband, a woman and a man in matrimony and marriage, I suppose in

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that case, maybe it could be.

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I like the, the way you're thinking about this because I, I was, I had a similar thought

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that there is a, there's a link here.

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And before I get to that, I do think, I think it, I think I read it as masturbation because

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he's talking about something that's, you know, inside your heart and he's talking, it would,

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if you were your right hand causes you to sin by, because you did something with it that

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interacted with someone else, then everyone would know, but this is more what's on happening

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on inside.

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So if your eyes cause me, if your hand, so it makes me think it is referring to masturbation

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because it's keeping, keeping on that, that, that line of thought.

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But I like that you made this connection with adultery because I think that's, that's something

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that's in there, you know, that this, that there is, there's nothing, it's like sexual

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desire itself, that's good.

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God created it, but then he kind of, not kind of, he made it in a way that it would be governed

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by something called marriage where there is a commitment and there's, you know, and so

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within that, yeah, I guess, you know, if you were masturbating in a marriage, maybe that's

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okay.

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I think, I don't think it's okay outside of marriage, but even in marriage, I think this

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is where it gets, you have to again, look at the heart because even in marriage, I think

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there's an opportunity for, because I think you, Tim said something about how every time

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you've heard of it in the context, it's always something where you're thinking and you're

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associating, you're having fantasies.

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So even if in marriage, you're masturbating and your thoughts are not pure, well, that's

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sin too, right?

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Because you should not be bringing anything into the marriage bed that would make it,

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that would defile it, would make it impure.

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And so I would say if you're someone who, and again, this is sort of like, there's no

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list of like, this is like, this is when he can, it's okay.

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And this is when it's not okay in the Bible.

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It's a, I think it's more of a, you kind of have to sit with this for a while.

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And it's like my gut says, and because I think that this is where the spirit is leading me,

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you know, based on these other verses, I could infer, and that's where I'm coming up with

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this, that yeah, maybe it's okay in marriage if you're not having impure thoughts.

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But I would say if you're someone who has masturbated before you got married, the likelihood

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of you relapsing when you're, is probably pretty high.

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And so that's not something you should probably even do, you know, because you don't want

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to enter, you don't want to invite sin into your heart.

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Yeah.

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There, there's a book I read called False Intimacy, and I forget the name of the author,

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which is not pretty normal.

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But it was an incredible book, and it talks about sexual addiction.

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And it gets at some of this.

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When we're talking about the context of marriage, you said like sexual desire is good.

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God created that, and that's good.

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When it's within that proper context.

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And the premise of the book, False Intimacy, is that when we, whether it's lust or it's

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other forms of sexual addiction, there, when we engage in these actions, we short circuit

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what God desires out of the sexual relationship, which is deep intimacy with someone else.

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And these other, these other things that we can do, whether that be masturbation in

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many, many contexts, or whether that's lust or whether it's other forms of sexual activity,

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they can maybe give us a taste of intimacy with someone else, or even just in our minds

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for a moment, because there's a very, it can be very pleasurable, but we're not doing the

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hard work of being in, in relationship with, with one another, with a spouse that requires

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vulnerability, that requires love and self-sacrifice.

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And that to me is a very helpful framework when I'm thinking about all of this in general.

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It's like, lust is really serious because it is a form of desire of, I want this thing,

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and it's about, it's about me.

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It's not about humility.

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It's not about loving someone else as myself.

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And so when I think, when I think about masturbation, if masturbation is being done in a way outside

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of the marriage covenant where it's just, it's just about me, it's just about me getting

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what I want, then, and it involves these fantasies and involves this desire that is, you know,

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I'm just, I'm just trying to get my pleasurable release.

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I think that's where it's extremely problematic and falls into this category.

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There is a possibility, and maybe we just table this for now, but there is a possibility

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where if you're in a relationship with someone and you're having sex, this is, you know,

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that, that, that where that you might actually be able to do masturbation, like where you're

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actually arousing yourself, and that could be actually bringing greater intimacy between

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the two of you.

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Maybe, right?

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So I think that's, that's where it's like, is this bringing me closer to my spouse or

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is it not?

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That's a conversation that happens between those two people.

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And yeah, if it's, if it's not, then definitely isn't good.

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Right.

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And, but it's something we need to wrestle with.

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Maybe, maybe it is something that Jesus is saying, absolutely not.

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This is not an option.

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So, well, and I think that there, there's two things that I think about there because

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you bring up some really good points, Tim, is that sex is something that I'll say Americans

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because I only know Americans.

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And if this is true across the board with humanity, but it's just something that's really

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difficult to talk about and really difficult to have a constructive conversation about.

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It's something that either, oh no, that's vulgar.

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Don't talk about that.

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Or, oh, that's too private.

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Don't talk about that.

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Sort of two ends of the spectrum.

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And yet both conclusions are, don't talk about it.

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And I think that because we don't talk about it, it's just something that sort of hangs

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out there and the language that we use that surrounds it is just, it's just all confused

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and muddied up.

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I wish that I could read this passage, but there's a passage in the book of second Samuel

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in chapter 13 that talks about the children of David, Amnon, Tamar, and Absalom and the

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utter wreck that lust caused among them.

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And there's confusion in the language.

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It says at one point, Amnon, David's son fell in love with Tamar, his half-sister.

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It uses that terminology.

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He fell in love with her.

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But yet, almost in the same sentence, it says he is obsessed with her.

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And that he made himself, it actually says he made himself ill because of her.

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That to me does not sound like in love.

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In love, obsessed, made himself ill.

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It also says it seemed impossible for him to do, I remember this quotation because this

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is one of the things that I say to myself when I'm trying to fight lust in my own life.

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It seemed impossible for him to do anything to her because she was the daughter of the

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king and because she was a virgin.

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So all in the same paragraph, he's in love.

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He's obsessed.

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He's made himself ill.

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He can't do anything to her.

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That doesn't sound like love.

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And then when his friend asked him, what's wrong with you?

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He doesn't say I'm messed up with lust over my sister.

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He says, I'm in love with my sister.

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And so that language is all messed up in there.

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And I think that it's a perfect mirror of our society that we can't talk about it.

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And it's part of our church culture that we need to be open about these kinds of things.

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We need to talk about it because unless you talk about it, you can't deal with it.

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If it's, I heard a quote from Mr. Rogers once that said, if it's human, then it's mentionable.

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And if it's mentionable, then it's manageable.

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But we have this problem.

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We have this problem with several things in among quote unquote Americans.

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We can't talk about sex.

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We can't talk about racism.

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We can't talk about politics.

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There are these things we can't talk about.

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And because we don't talk about it, it's just bones of contention all the time.

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Well, I like that we certainly have been talking about some pretty uncomfortable and awkward

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and things you don't normally talk about, lust, masturbation.

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I'm glad that we are shedding some light on this because you're right.

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It is something that we do need to talk more about.

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And I think we're going to have to do that in another episode.

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Thank you.

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As always, thank you to listening as well.

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you