What's going on, everybody? This is AJ Capasso
here. We're talking with the source. I'm here
with my beautiful girlfriend, Tammy. Tammy, how
are you? I'm doing great. Great. We had a great
day today, didn't we? We did. We had a great
couple of days. Yeah, we did. We did. You know,
things are working out well. Everything is going
great. I hope everyone at home is doing well.
I hope everyone is doing great at home. And also
any of our podcast listeners that listen on Spotify,
I hope you guys are doing great at home as well.
Today we have a special guest. We are super excited
to have this guest on. It's been a while. We've
been trying to get him on, but he's super busy
all the time. So we understand completely. But
listen, this is a legend in the field, a veteran.
Very well -known person. His name is Joe Frank.
Let me bring him forward. How are you, my friend?
Hey, guys. How are you? Thanks for having me
on. No, please. The honor is ours. Thank you
for being on. Yeah, we've been trying to get
together for months now. We started this back
in October, I think. I know. A couple things
come up, and I had to keep rescheduling. I'm
glad we found out. No, hey, it's all right. But,
hey, Joe, I wanted to first ask you the question
that we ask everybody is to tell our followers
that don't know about you a little bit about
yourself, about your background, so that they
can understand a little bit more about yourself
and what you do. Well, I mean, I started in the
paranormal field many, many years ago. I was
18 years old. I was always interested in ghosts
and things like that. I knew who Ed and Lorraine
Warren were. I used to follow them through print
media and radio and TV. We didn't have the internet
back then. We're talking 1986. I graduated high
school in May or June of that year. I think it
was September of 86, I met the Warrens at one
of their lectures. One of the first things Lorraine
said to me when she first met me was, uh she
says honey you know i'm reading your aura she
was i can tell you were meant to do this work
and she said would you like to come and work
with us and be one of our students uh they had
a handful of students at the time and uh we met
we used to meet up at a place called holly manor
in newtown i don't know if you're familiar with
it but it's now i think the inn at newtown but
back then it was holy manor and um it's like
monday nights from like seven to nine um there's
about half a dozen of us my girlfriend at the
time who's now my wife of 33 years um yeah we've
been together uh almost 40 years 39 years and
that's awesome thank you thank you uh i don't
know i've tried everything i could but she won't
get rid of me i mean i love telling the story
because it's such a wonderful story i have such
a unique history um You know, that's unique to
me, obviously, as we all have a history that
are unique to ourselves. But Laurel had seen
in the local newspaper that Ed and Lorraine were
going to be lecturing in North Haven, Connecticut,
which is one town over from where I live. Yeah,
that's where I grew up. Oh, North Haven? Really?
Yeah, yeah. I grew up there from 16 until I graduated
high school. And then I lived there until I was
like about 30 years old. And I'm 36 now, so.
Oh, you're just a baby. Yeah. I'm an old man
now. I'm a veteran. People keep saying that,
though. I tell you, I don't feel it. You see
all the gray hair I'm getting. Well, I was a
teenager. You still got some time. Laurel saw
in the newspaper that the Warrens are going to
be lecturing. So she was like, hey, instead of
going to the movies tonight, why don't we go
down there and see them speak? So that's how
I started. I didn't start actually working cases
right away, though. You know, we did some classes
and, you know, we went on some excursions with
Ed and Lorraine. But it was probably a couple
of years before Ed let me go out on my own. I
also doubled as security for them. I was a much
bigger guy than I am today. And, you know, I
used to go to the lectures. And, you know, sometimes
you get people that have a little bit too much
to drink. And I call it liquid courage. and these
yeah they used to be some hecklers it wouldn't
happen a lot it wasn't like you know every show
but every once in a while you get somebody that
would get out of hand and you know ed would just
look at me and he's like hey kid you want to
take care of this like okay so i just go up to
him and be very polite and say look can you please
you know uh keep it down you know um usually
i didn't have to ask twice but um that was that
was part of my training because going to the
lectures and listening to them speak I got to
learn a lot about their history and a lot of
history of their cases. A lot of their more iconic
cases that you may have heard about, like Amityville
and the Harrisville haunting, which you guys
probably know as the Conjuring House. That was
one of their cases back then. The Annabelle Dahl
case and the devil in Connecticut, the haunting
in Connecticut. All these are more iconic cases
that some of them. have gone in to have documentaries
made about them on television and and obviously
theatrical releases as well um very loosely based
on the cases these once hollywood gets their
talents into these stories they take a lot of
liberties with them you know which boggles the
mind to me because in my opinion in some of the
things especially in what the cases i've been
dealing with if you tell the real story the way
it really happened it's far more terrifying than
you know yeah but i've always wondered that yeah
well you know hollywood i mean what's the end
the end goal is to put butts in the seats and
and money you know to to make money and i get
all that but you know i've shied away from that
my entire career because to me it's not about
money this is a labor of love this is a vocation
not an occupation for me you know yeah we don't
we don't charge to help people my my you know
my folks that i work with very closely um and
there are a lot of them uh we do this to help
people um where we make any money is through
our lecture system when we're lecturing or uh
going to if i get invited to um some of these
um paracons and things like that i just came
back um just about a month ago from megacon down
in orlando i tell you down there that is the
biggest comic -con it's not a paracon it's a
comic -con but it's like the second largest in
the country next to St. Louis. And then the third
one is the Javits Center in New York. But it
was an honor to be invited there. I've been invited
there the last few years. And my good friend
Bill Slevin, who lives down in Florida, coordinated
all that. And they put he and I under the horror
section. So they didn't have a paranormal section
per se. They had a horror section. And they put
us down on the main community floor. god i think
it's a is a thursday through sunday event and
by friday afternoon i lost my voice i think i
had six or seven panels that i did throughout
the weekend and i normally don't need a microphone
when i speak but i i needed to use one there
because uh talking to this room of you know a
few hundred people um oh yeah exactly it's a
great feeling i love to talk about what i do
but what i love to do now is i love to educate
And not only educate the general public, but
I want to educate the next generation of researchers.
Those people that are really serious about this
work, not the people on YouTube that want to
just go to old cemeteries and, you know, abandoned
hospitals and things like that. I mean, that's
great for entertainment and fun, but that's not
what I do. You know, like I said, I have a very
unique history. of how i've come up through the
paranormal field through the years um there's
not too many people that have my history with
the warrens there are there are a few there's
a good friends of mine like john zaffis and jimmy
uh mr haunted jimmy petnino rick clark frank
schiaffari you know good friends of mine i've
known for many many years 30 almost 35 years
and we all kind of came up together uh all learning
working with uh with ed in the rain and learning
from them and i've learned a lot on my own too
i study you know a lot of stuff with the uh the
catholic church catholic exorcists i'm involved
with the uh the solomonic corner of saint michael
the archangel with some good friends of mine
like father ken torres and father bob bailey
with the holy uh sword apostolate um you know
we're all like a big massive team and uh i'm
involved with wardruna which is a is a team of
psychics and and and uh uh you know you know
like social workers and therapists and psychologists
so we're you know what do you have to do is in
this work is you have to have the gift of discernment
you know you got to discern between what is real
or what's fantasy what's good and what's evil
you know you don't want to just take in every
stray that comes along somebody says i'm haunted
or i need an exorcism or something like that
it does it doesn't work that way you have to
discern between what cases are real what may
be um you know a form of psychosis or schizophrenia
or some kind of other psychiatric disorder where
someone thinks that they have a demonic entity
attached to them now now given given that statement
someone can have a mental illness and still have
a demonic entity attached to them but it's very
rare demonic activity is very rare i want to
make sure your audience knows that it's very
rare and uh possession full -blown possession
is rarer still but it does exist you know um
i wanted to ask well i wanted to ask for in your
all the time that you've been doing this work
was many years um what is the scariest thing
that you've seen scariest yeah well there's there's
been quite a few things that we've seen i bet
one of my earlier cases i'll tell you about this
one because this one is intriguing I was in a
home that I was with Ed at the time and a couple
other people. And Ed was doing what we called
religious provocation. He was provoking, which
is something that most people should not do.
Taking a religious relic like a rosary or a blessed
crucifix or holy water and commanding in the
name of Jesus Christ for something to reveal
itself or show itself. you know that's very dangerous
that's that's something that we call divination
you know uh you know we're using a ouija board
and stuff like that religious provocation and
uh i was um i was attacked myself i mean i was
like 360 pounds you know i was a weightlifter
back in the day i was never skinny it's still
not but i was picked up and thrown i was thrown
about 12 feet across the room i had uh soda bottle
hit me in the face got my blood blood coming
out of my nose you know these things are real
and you know it's not something that people should
be go out looking for uh it's very dangerous
to be going into uh allegedly haunted places
but you know it's dangerous to go in there and
use this this divination or provocation methods
you know just just for just for to get evidence
You know for the thrill of it because if you
do get an attachment It's very hard to get rid
of them You know if you get some kind of attachment
god forbid a demonic attachment now, you're you're
you're kind of in deep trouble It's not something
you just shit, you know wipe off you you know,
so you need to be strong Emotionally and psychological
but you also be not very strong spiritually when
you do this work you know, so it's it's just
you know i'm going into my education mode now
because people need to know this and the the
researchers out there there's a lot of good people
doing good work and good research but then there's
just as many people that are just doing it for
the thrill of it and i don't see the fun in this
i just don't see where it's this is fun to people
i deal with um residential cases i don't do public
really public investigations and things like
that unless this is part of a a conference or
something i'm doing and we do it for fun you
know yeah but you got to be careful there as
well um you know but we we help people and families
frighten people um you know i've got a case now
that just came in through the church outside
of philadelphia that i'm working on it's i believe
it's a case of demonic oppression um and the
families you know families get some young children
that are being um attacked and um It's something
that we take very seriously. We're watching it
closely. I have to be careful too. I've had some
health problems of late I'm dealing with and
been in and out of the hospital a couple times.
If I'm not strong enough, I can't go. I was going
to ask you something along those lines. When
you're handling cases like this, how do you protect
yourself? That's an excellent question, Tammy.
People ask me all the time, what's the best protection?
I said, the best protection is your faith. People
are like, well, should I go out and buy a crucifix
or holy water or something? I said, well, it
doesn't mean anything. Those items are just inanimate
objects. If you don't have the faith behind them,
faith is believing in something that common sense
tells you not to. I always say that to coin a
phrase from the movie Miracle on 34th Street,
but it's very true. You know, faith is believing
in something you can't see or feel or touch.
And if you have faith in those objects and you're
very rooted in whatever faith you may have, whatever
religion you subscribe to, then you should be
safe. Otherwise, you can't just walk around with
holy water and think that that's going to fight
it. It's actually going to have the adverse effect
if you don't have the faith in it. It's just
going to, you know, these things just laugh at
you. I mean, they eat me for lunch. you know
it's funny that you said that because there was
a time where we asked that question through a
spirit box about crystals about people who use
crystals and they actually it came to the box
saying basically the thing that you just said
you know like they're inanimate objects and basically
your belief into them is what causes them to
do what they're supposedly doing so like your
belief and your intent is what's actually causing
the effect of these inanimate objects that you
put your faith into so like i i i kind of like
i completely understand what you just said like
completely it's all about free will and intention
when you know when you think about it i was born
and raised roman catholic the warrens were very
catholic so i learned in the catholic way and
i've studied you know i've done some studying
under catholic exorcists and things like that
so i i've learned about divination and exorcism
and things like that i've assisted in exorcisms
i'm not an exorcist you know but as a helper
as you know and that's basically someone that
you know stands by and and um you know if need
be restraint physically restrains the afflicted
person uh so that they don't hurt themselves
or the exorcist who's performing the ritual um
and you but you don't want to um you don't even
want to make eye contact remember bishop mckenna
used to say to us don't look at it you wouldn't
say him or her he would say don't look at it
because he was referring to the demon because
once once he starts using the uh religious relics
the holy water and and the obviously the words
the prayers uh the demons will manifest and it
can get pretty ugly and and it's it's pretty
scary to see if you're not used to seeing something
like that it's it's very scary to see People's
eyes change color. I've seen eyes turn into like
serpent's eyes. They've turned green and their
body contorts. They'll speak in different languages
that the person couldn't possibly know. They'll
have superhuman strength. I mean, throw me across
the room like I'm a rag doll, you know, things
like that. And it's very scary when you're involved
with these things. So our job would be to protect
the person, protect, you know, the bishop and
to pray. just to pray, you know, pray the, our
father prayer to St. Michael, just, just to pray,
but don't make eye contact. And Bishop McKenna
used to say, don't look at it. Don't speak to
it. If it says, if it looks at you and says something,
don't acknowledge it. Just look away and continue
to pray. And again, that stuff is, that stuff's
very rare, but look at the world we live in.
Look, what's going on around us. We have free
will. And in my opinion, You know, God wants
us to take that free will and choose him. Most
people probably choose the other guy, you know,
but God won't meddle in our free will. He allows
things to happen for a reason. And, you know,
a lot of people look around and say, why would
God allow this? You know, it's a terrible tragedy,
a car accident, a young child gets killed or
murdered, God forbid. You know, people say, you
know, that's where people really test their faith.
Because like, why is it just God? Why would he
let this happen? It's not up to us to question
God. I mean, he has a plan for all of us. When
people start messing with fortune telling and
soothsaying and oracles and things like that,
when you're trying to find out information about
the future, that's where it can get dangerous.
I usually ask my audience, I say, if you folks,
anybody here, if you're given the opportunity
to know the date, the time, and the manner of
your own death, would you want to know it? Would
you want to know when you were going to die and
how you were going to die? Most people wouldn't.
Every once in a while I get somebody who raises
their hand, yeah, I'd kind of like to know. I'm
like, okay, I respect that. But most people know
because we're not meant to know that. I'd like
to have the six lotto numbers for Monday, Tuesday
nights drawing. But I'd also like to have a toilet
made out of solid gold, but it's not in the cards,
is it? So unfortunately, because of the world
we live in and what's out there, There's a lot
of evil in the world, you know, and not everything
is evil. I mean, a lot of people ask, some people
ask me in my lectures, well, Joe, how can we
talk about a lot of this bad stuff? I said, well,
that's because people want to hear that. I've
made many beautiful stories where we've helped
people with what we call spirit rescue, where
there might be a spirit attached to a person
and we'll help, you know, pass that. person over.
They haven't crossed over. We'll help them cross
over. Maybe have a loved one come and pull them
over or something like that. You've got a lot
of beautiful stories like that, too. But it's
usually the negative demonic stuff that people
are really salivating for. I don't know why,
but I've got plenty of stories on both sides
to talk about. Yeah, no, please keep going. I
mean, I think that, yeah, the spirit rescue thing,
that would really touch with me more. honestly
because that's actually one of the reasons that
i became an investigator to begin with well this
is one way we help people and that's why we have
this whole network this whole network with stacia
and tom you know with with wardruna i mean i'm
i have psychic ability we all do mine not is
not as fine -tuned where i could sit down and
do a reading you know with someone unless i wanted
to bs like some people do But, you know, I wouldn't
play with people's emotions like that. So, you
know, people that claim they're psychic and really
aren't shouldn't be doing this because you're
messing with people's lives and their emotions
and things like that. And shame on those people.
They know who they are. You know, I know who
they are, too. You know, but we have we have
a gifted team of people that can help. Matter
of fact, I was talking to Stacia last night about
a personal issue that I have with them. with
a an elderly woman up around the corner that
we my wife and i care for and she gave me a message
you know um last night she was very helpful you
know but this is for the this is the good part
of what we do you know it's always about helping
people you know uh it's not about making money
it's not about getting famous i mean i don't
care about that i just i really don't i don't
care about that i was offered to show ghost hunters
many years ago i turned it down Pilgrim Films
contacted us back in 2001, I think it was. I
didn't know what the show would turn out to be.
It's still on TV today. Great. I don't have any
regrets. That's not what I wanted to do. That's
why I left the show I was working with because
I didn't feel like it matched up with my end
goal, with the goals that I want to achieve,
which is actually to help people. I want to learn
and I want to help people. The goal is a different
direction. Well, you know, and you're the kind
of people that I want to talk to. And, you know,
I don't know everything. I don't profess to know
everything. But after 40 years, I know a little
bit. I know a little bit, you know. But, you
know, if someone's doing a show and their end
game is entertainment and stuff like that, you
know, God bless them. I don't have a problem
with that. But, you know, people that do that
for entertainment purposes should let the world
know. hey this is just for entertainment purposes
you know don't mislead people because when you
do that um and you're making a profit that's
called fraud and you know i don't i don't get
caught up in the drama believe me i i another
day goes by when i'll get a phone call or an
email about something somebody did or somebody
said i'm like why are you even telling me i don't
i don't care i'm not involved i'm not going to
get involved in any of the drama i just want
to continue uh the life's work and legacy of
ed and lorraine and keep their legacy alive uh
ironically i am now the age that the warrens
were when i met them you know uh they were about
the age that laurel and i are now when we met
them and uh it's kind of come full circle for
me i know there's a lot of people out there that
don't care for the warrens or their methods but
They're not informed. They didn't know them intimately
like I did. You know, I mean, I would say defend
their name because I can speak intelligently
of the character of the people I knew. You know,
but the haters out there, I'm not going to waste
my time or energy trying to change their mind.
They can believe whatever they want. God bless
them. But everyone's entitled to their opinion.
I just say make it an informed opinion. And,
oh, I did the research, or I read something,
or somebody's cousin's brother's sister's girlfriend
told me this. I don't care. If you want to know
something about the Warrens, ask me. If I know
the answer, I'll tell you. But to bash people
that are dead and no longer with us and can't
defend themselves is reprehensible. It really
is. I don't get involved in any of that stuff,
but if someone's got a problem or wants a question
answered, reach out to me. I'll talk to you.
You know, there's no hate here. I love everybody.
I don't care. I'm a big teddy bear. I love everybody.
I've had the opportunity to work with you. You
were really awesome to work with. Yeah, we had
an argument with the SOB in the basement that
night, though. Yeah, we did. I wish I had an
opportunity to go back there and take care of
that. But if they want me to, they will. But
some places like that also. they don't want to
get rid of what's there because that's, and that's,
wait, hold on. You don't just say that. And then
you don't tell the story of what you're talking
about. Come on guys. I know I'm all jealous.
I want to know, you know, Timmy, go ahead. You
can tell her. Um, we were working an episode
of dark echoes that actually, um, it never, it
didn't, it's on the cutting room floor. Um, but
I got the opportunity to work. with joe and we
worked the basement where there was a um so somebody
had done like some i think a spirit board or
something and they believe that it brought a
negative entity and we we did argue with it for
sure yeah i i this is a while ago um you know
i i we're having a good time that night too it's
very interesting place but If I remember correctly,
there were some human bones found down there.
There were. They found human bones in the furnace.
Yeah. A woman's femur. Yeah. I don't know the
story because that should have been turned over
to the authorities, in my opinion. I don't know
what happened. But there was a negative. It wasn't
demonic. I don't think it was anything demonic.
But it was a negative human spirit. Very negative.
Oh, absolutely. You know, if you're an asshole
in life, you could be an asshole in death. Absolutely.
But this guy, this was a male energy who's very
negative. And, like, you know, what's your problem?
I mean, you're not scaring anybody here. You
know, look, I've been thrown across the room
by demonic forces. You think I'm afraid of a
human thing? Except my wife. I'm afraid of her.
Good reason. But, yeah. It's too bad that that
episode, I don't know really what happened there,
but you guys are doing a great job filming, and
Matt did a great job interviewing and stuff.
I'm not sure what happened. I don't remember
the story. It was about, I don't know, what,
a year and a half ago or so? I'm not 100 % sure
what happened. I remember working with you in
the basement there, and you had the divining
rods and stuff. Yep. Every time I would ask a
question. You know, the divining rods seemed
to be on point. Oh, they were. We even got part
of a name. I don't remember what it was, but
we even got part of a name. So, AJ, you didn't
know about that story? No, I didn't hear about
it. So I was super excited to hear about this.
Yeah, it was an interesting place. I think it
was the S .K. Pierce Mansion. Oh, okay. Awesome.
It was an interesting case. There definitely
was something there because I could feel it.
When I go into a place, if there's something
dark, I usually feel it. My cackles, the hairs
will stand up. I'm like, okay, there's something
here. But a lot of times I can't see it. Whereas
someone with more psychic ability would actually
be able to see these things. I don't normally
see them myself. I can feel them. i know they're
around demonic things usually hide in the shadows
they don't want to be brought into the light
that's the last thing they want that's why you
have to use this with religious provocation to
provoke them you know ed ed told me one day he's
like you know kid he's like imagine taking a
stick and there's a tiger in front of you but
he's in a cage thank god he said you take that
stick and you poke that tiger in the eye how
many times you think that tiger's gonna let you
do that before it takes a swat at you you know
yeah so you're provoking you know it's like you're
standing in front of me and you're pushing each
other eventually someone's going to take a swing
you know and that's the same thing that happens
in in this but it's not something that you should
really be doing if you don't know what you're
doing it's it's dangerous for even the most seasoned
veteran to be doing something like that but you
need to draw it out of the shadow sometimes to
discern what you're dealing with you know what
are we dealing with exactly here and then sometimes
you you'll get a response an overwhelming response
that you may not have expected you know we had
um you know like i said that case where i was
tossed across the room i'm like i had no idea
what happened you know i was just uh people like
geez joe weren't you scared i go yeah i was scared
i was 22 23 years old you know and i i my brain
tried to um figure out what just happened to
me and i was terrified what did it feel like
It was almost felt like I was pushed and pulled
at the same time. All of a sudden I was here.
Then I was there. And I went about 10 or 12 feet.
I smashed up against the wall, my right shoulder.
I remember I put a dent in the wall and you know,
I got up and I was so disoriented. I was angry.
I remember I was angry. I'm like, you mother,
you know, I was so mad that I felt violated in
a sense, you know? um yeah but that one i remember
because i tell that story a lot because that
was kind of an initiation to me into the the
world of of uh demonic forces because human spirits
can push you they can scratch you they can touch
you but they're not going to be moving a 360
mile man like that okay that's that's superhuman
strength right there you know uh and i've been
punched burned scratched bitten you know like
i said thrown across the room It's happened a
lot over the last 40 years, but, you know, it's
not something that I'm proud of. You know, I
hope it never happens again because I'm old now.
I don't want to break something. But as I said
earlier, with my health issues that I've been
fighting for the last couple of years, I have
to be careful. I have to be smart about things.
You know, and, you know, if this case that I'm
working on outside Philadelphia turns into something,
I will go there. but I won't go there unprepared.
Not only physically, but also spiritually. You
have to be in a state of grace or a state of
absolution. So what I mean by that is I go to
confession, confess all your sins and be absolved
of those sins. Because if you go up against the
demonic and you have any sins that you haven't
confessed, it'll know. it'll know and it'll call
you on it. And it happens to even some of the
clergy. It's a very fascinating field. Unfortunately,
there's not too many people that I know that
are really serious about it. I've got a lot of
friends and colleagues that I came up through
the years with that do a lot of good work, that
have a lot of experiences that I have. You know,
but what you see on YouTube and television today,
it's not real. You know, some of the shows are
very entertaining and I like some of them. They're
very well done and edited very well. But, you
know, I'm like, you know, I turn to my wife sometimes.
I'm like, if these people really were involved
in a demonic case, they would shit themselves.
They wouldn't know what to do. And it scares
me. well it scares me i'm not trying to knock
anybody i'm just saying it scares me because
they know not what they do you know people people
mock what they don't understand if you don't
understand what you're doing you know if you're
only you know claimed to any sort of education
in the paranormal is watching tv shows you're
in trouble you know you're in trouble you really
need to study about this and and spend the 40
years doing it before you go you know kicking
down doors and saying come and get me Because
what are you going to do when they do come and
get you? Right. Exactly. And I know you said
that you had like a lot of appearances coming
up that you're going to be doing. I was just
wondering, are any of them like educational?
Well, yes. My calendar is starting to fill up
for the year. It's only March. Unfortunately,
I do a lot of public libraries in Connecticut.
I think last October I had 22 events in 31 days.
And I was exhausted. But, you know, I do a lot
of libraries through September through November,
usually that time frame, because, you know, let's
face it, Halloween, spooky season. I get that.
But, yeah, I have a program. I put together a
PowerPoint. I'm actually working on a new one
now. I try to change it up every year where I'll
show video evidence, audio evidence, photographs.
from cases that I've worked through the years.
Some of the stuff, you know, I also offer lectures.
I'll talk about Annabelle and Amityville. As
it was told to me, I wasn't there. But my mentors
at the record worked on these cases. And, you
know, the case in Connecticut, my good friend
John Zaffis and Chris McKinnell worked on that
case. That's the Snedeker case here in Southington,
which is about 15 minutes from my house. You
know, so. I want to study those cases so I can
speak intelligently about it. So I can tell the
story. However, I wasn't part of that. I remember
the haunting in Connecticut. Ed said to me, he
goes, you know, kid, he always called me kid.
He's like, you know, kid, I got a case, a really
bad case right up there where you live, but you're
not ready for it yet. That case ran, I think,
86 to 88. I joined in the latter part of 86.
So he's right. I wasn't ready for it. Would I
have gone? Absolutely. you know scared of my
out of my mind but that's how you learn sometimes
you got a baptism by fire you know absolutely
answer your question tammy i try uh i'm a big
dumb animal i'm a big clown i like to joke around
so i have a lot of fun with my audience but there's
an educational message in there so when it's
time to get serious i have a whole section where
i talk about divination okay which is basically
like fortune telling trying to find out information
about the future or hidden knowledge Okay. And
the most common instrument today is the Ouija
board. Ouija board. Yes, it's a board game. All
right. However, it's the intention and the free
will that you put into it. What is your intention
in using a Ouija board? Well, why use a Ouija
board unless you want to find out something about
your future or you want to make contact with
spirits? It's very, very dangerous. you know,
if you've used one and you've had no adverse
effects, God bless you. But, you know, I'm just
saying, why spin the wheel and take a chance?
You know, Ouija boards, seances, crystal balls,
even divining rods, you know, those things can
be dangerous if you're using them and you're
not experienced with it. Even tarot cards. When
I did the event in Newtown, AJ, where I saw you
guys, there was a woman that uh she came up to
me after i was walking out of the lecture hall
and she said you know joe at first when you were
talking i got angry and she goes but then when
you followed up she goes i said wow he's right
so i was talking about seances and tarot cards
and and she's like i've been using tarot cards
for 30 something years but you're right so well
if you know how to use them and you you do them
correctly let me give you let me let me explain
about what i'm talking about when you're a psychic
medium if you're using your gifts whether you
use tarot cards or something like that if you
get a message from the other side for a client
that's a gift that's a gift okay but if you're
misusing those powers and now you're trying to
find information that's not meant for you to
know okay that's divination that's not good you
know I always say God has our futures mapped
out for us and he gives us our free will to make
it what it is. But, you know, don't mess with
that because that could be very dangerous. That's
a fine line. That's a fine line right there.
That's a scary fine line, you know. It is scary.
And, you know, I just tell folks, you know, people
have come to my lectures. I had a guy in Westport,
Connecticut. I remember he was sitting there
and I joke around. I say, how many people here,
you know, don't believe in ghosts? you know i
get a couple people raise their hand you know
sheepishly they said how many people are here
because you had nothing better to do tonight
you know and there was one guy that kind of laughed
and i said i said are you a believer and he's
like not really he goes my wife dragged me here
i said that's fine i said uh that's great i said
uh if you're skeptical that i'm i'm my own biggest
skeptic you know i said but maybe uh talk to
me after the show i'd like to see if you if you
know how you feel then and uh he was really not
a believer you know um in in this stuff and uh
i went through my program and showed him and
and he came up to me he goes you know you might
really have something here he goes i'm really
starting to think i said well that's fine i said
i'm like fox news i report you decide i'm not
trying to change anybody's minds i'm just telling
you look this is my history this is what i've
been through these are the cases i've worked
on and they don't always work out I mean, you
know, it's not like Hollywood. You go in there,
you throw some, you know, holy water around and
say a few prayers, and everything's fine. It
doesn't work that way. Matter of fact, your average,
you know, if someone's possessed, the average
exorcism takes three to five years. Wow. And
that comes from, I believe, Father Gabriel Amor.
You know, you don't just do one and done. That's
extremely rare for that to happen. um yeah yeah
i mean the movie the exorcist you guys seen that
movie the exorcist yeah yeah based on a true
story started out with a ouija board well it
took 60 i think 67 exorcisms to liberate that
young boy you know and that's a good news story
because that young boy grew grew up to uh be
a nasa engineer for 40 years he just died in
2020 you know and i thought yeah i was wondering
i always wanted yeah no one ever talked about
it so i always wondered what happened to him
well yeah his name was ronald edwin hunkler and
he was a nasa engineer uh worked on the space
shuttle program and all that he went on to live
a normal life for as normal as possible he just
died at the age of 84 in 2020. so i talk about
that case that's a good news case then i talk
about a bad news case which is annalise michelle
you know you know the movie the the exorcism
of emily rose Alright, that didn't end well.
She ended up passing away. Not because she was
killed directly by the demonic forces. Okay?
What happened is, of her own free will, she gave
up. And she stopped eating and drinking. She
was 66 pounds when she died. Yeah. Very tragic
story. I remember reading that. I remember reading
about it. They physically beat the hell out of
you. But, you know, you gotta understand, these
things, these... entities, whatever you want
to call them, they're on a very short leash.
They have to abide by what their creator says
also. So they're on a short leash, but they only
can do what God allows. I find it crazy. I find
it absolutely crazy. So whatever these entities
are, right? whether we call them demons angels
it doesn't really matter but whatever these entities
are that communicate that end up possessing people
that end up doing these things these negative
things it makes you wonder what it is that's
holding them back from doing the most damage
that they want to do or what it is or why they're
on that short leash and not not just saying like
okay it's yes it's god because i know that it's
god but i just saying like what is actually stopping
them like what is it like an energy is it a a
force field between us and the realm you know
what i'm saying like what what could it be that
is stopping them from fully going rampant on
us well like you said it's it's god it's your
faith i mean yeah that that's a very good question
it's really not one i can answer because i don't
have that information yeah yeah i just know that
in in all the work i've done and the studying
i've done is that these entities and they are
angels they're just fallen angels as demons they're
just they're angels they're just fallen angels
you know they they rebelled against god and they
were cast out and you know satan uh lucifer he
may be the the the the head honcho there and
um but they're like i said they're on a short
leash because you know if something happens if
they hurt someone or do something or whatever
that's only because god allows it and that's
my faith that tells me that People say, well,
how do you know that? Well, I know that because
I have faith. There's people out there that don't
have faith. There's people out there that may
be listening and say, oh, Joe's full of it. Well,
that's fine. You can believe whatever you want.
I'm not going to argue with it. But I haven't
been doing this for 40 years for no reason. I
haven't wasted 40 years of my life on nothing.
that's why i do these educational uh seminars
and things like that because people that want
to learn you know if you want to come out and
share a good ghost story i'll accommodate you
you know it's fine but if you're a researcher
i don't even like the word paranormal investigator
because the investigation part of it is part
of the research the last thing you should do
is load up the mystery machine and grab scooby
-doo and go running out to someone's house right
half cocked Cause you don't get phone calls and
emails that received over the years from the
ABC paranormal. And like, Joe, we're up, we're
out at this house and you know, something went
flying across the room and we grabbed all our
equipment and run, run it out of there. You know?
Yeah. Yeah. And now, now you're really scared
the client because they're like, we, we asked
you to come in to help us understand what we're
experiencing. And now you're scared and you're
running out of here. Well, and like, you know,
I've gotten calls from, clients of people and
also these groups themselves i'm like well tell
me what happened and i try to help as much as
i can um usually it's it's you know consulting
i do a lot of consulting on the phone or through
zoom or something like that you know i'm not
not a liberty to just jump on a plane and go
out to sacramento i mean if i'm needed and there's
a case out there i'm you know where they really
need my help i would do it but i have to be careful
with my own health Now that I'm older, hopefully
wiser, but now I have a heart issue that I'm
dealing with. My doctor and my wife have me on
a short leash. Yeah. Because I'm not impervious
to attacks. No. Lately, I've experienced a lot
of demonic influence, let me just put it that
way, in my life. with things in my own house
that will happen uh here but i protect myself
i protect my family um you know and by protection
i mean you know i i my faith is the protection
you know yeah but i've got so much going on i
have to be smart about it and that's why i have
a whole team of people you know that i try to
mentor and pass on my knowledge to them uh but
and these are all all very knowledgeable gifted
people these aren't just somebody that says hey
i'm interested in being a paranormal researcher
and like you know and when i talk about this
stuff to my audience i said if there's any any
researchers in my audience please don't take
this the wrong way because i was once where you
are now all right and you said i was an 18 year
old snot nose teenager i didn't know my ass from
my elbow you know and i'm still not snot nose
i say I have three children. My wife has four,
you know, because I'm a big Toys R Us kid. I
never wanted to grow up, you know. But when it's
time to get serious about this, I tell people,
you know, you know, Zach Bagans, I said to him
one day, I'm like, dude, you shouldn't be messing
with this. I know you're a showman. I know this
is what you do and you're very successful at
it. God bless you. But if you're going to stand
there and say things like, if this is the gates
of hell, why don't you rise up and get me? That's
not a smart thing to say. That's not a smart
thing to say. Yeah. Oh, this guy just opened
the door wide open for us. He was just kidding.
He's just doing it for TV. You open that door.
You open that door, you may not be able to close
it. That's why when people tell me, well, Joe,
there's this house you went into. There's a portal
there. I said, okay, well, if there really is
a portal there, then you need to work to close
it. don't go in there with you know people start
um you know conjuring and provoking because you
don't know what's going to come through i said
something could come through and attach itself
to you or go after something with someone that
you most love like your family your children
you think that's funny now that's what this is
what i say to people you know and you know but
it's all about money people want to rent out
their house or they'll buy a house and it's Okay,
the house is 300 years old. Let's make up some
story that the place is haunted. Invite people
in. It's a lot of money. And people do it because
they're gullible. They don't know any better.
I'm like, well, there may be something there
that may not be there, but why would you provoke
it? Why would you do that? It totally goes against
what I'm trying to teach people. But when people
see dollar signs that all they want is money,
you know, it's not about money. Trust me, I don't
have any money. I'm broke because of this work.
When someone needs my help and they can't afford
to even pay my travel expenses, don't worry about
it. I'll be there. And it comes out of my pocket.
But that's what I signed up for. Like I said,
this is a vocation. It's not an occupation. I
just want people to be very careful and educate
themselves before they go storming into these
places with their cameras, hoping to get the
money shot to load up on their social media pages.
That's not what this is about. At least for me,
anyway. Yeah, absolutely. We have a viewer. Her
name is Urbex Amanda Explorer, and she asked,
for the last two years, I get visits from a woman
who passed in NL, and I don't know how to help
her. She shows me the inside her house and how
she passed. What would you recommend to her?
Would you recommend stay away from this and not
do this? I know Amanda. Hi, Amanda. Say hi to
your mom for me. That's a very good question.
So I know, Amanda, this is something, if you
need my help, reach out to me privately about
this. But what you can do is you can pray for
this person. You can pray for their soul, okay?
Pray for one of their loved ones to help them.
But I'll need you to get in touch with me and
fill me in a little bit more on it. But anybody
can help anybody. You know, God, in my belief
system, the Bible says Jesus gave us all the
power to cast out demons in his name. It's not
like I, Joe Frankie, cast you out. It's going
to eat me for lunch. You know, it's I, you know,
in the power and blood of Christ, cast you out.
You know, and Ed said to me one day, I'll never
forget this. He said, you know, Kitty goes, the
devil knows who we are and he hates us. Us in
particular, not just because we're made in the
image of God, but because we're willing to stand
up to him and spit in his eye. I'm not afraid
anymore. I'm very apprehensive and I'm very respectful
of the power. And everyone should be. But I have
a saying that I say all the time. Faith and fear
cannot coexist. And what I mean by that is if
you're very deeply routed in your faith and your
face is unshakable, then you have nothing to
fear. They cannot coexist on the same level because
your faith and your fear is really, you know,
in the unknown. You know, so it's like if you
have faith and you turn behind you and look who's
in your corner, you know, I'm not afraid. I'm
too old and grumpy to be afraid anymore. but
you have to be respectful of the power of these
things absolutely and it's not all bad it's just
it's all that about that free will and intention
if you go in there guns blazing and you go in
there with a ouija board like ah come on you
know you know we're not afraid you know come
on throw something across the room slam a door
open a window i'm sitting there going oh my god
You know, like going to a restaurant and ordering
food and then getting scared or upset when the
waiter brings you exactly what you asked for.
Well, you know, I'm probably not going to make
a lot of friends by a lot of stuff I said, but
you know what? I'm just telling you how it is,
folks. This is what I've lived for 40 years.
If my phone's not ringing, I'm happy. I haven't
had a case. well we need to get cases no we don't
we don't my fear is that the people that really
need the kind of help that i or my colleagues
can provide that they won't find us because there's
just this paranormal community so to speak whatever
that means you know um there's so many people
out there that are inexperienced and they're
in it for the wrong reasons i .e. personal gain,
fame, money. If you're in this work for the right
reason, there's no money in it for you. There's
no money in it for you, and you should be okay
with that. If you're honestly looking to help
people that are afflicted, whether good, bad,
or indifferent, not everything's bad. Some people
don't have a paranormal issue. They just want
someone to listen to them and help them understand
what's going on. You know, and that's a lot of
what I do. I've got a lot of stories. I don't
talk about them too much because nothing really
happened. But I've got a lot of cases that I've
worked where, you know, you'd be out there and
I'd spend days, weeks, months, years sometimes
working with families and nothing happens. And
like, I don't know, Joe, whenever you leave,
this happens or that happens. And I'm like, well,
do this, this or this. And sometimes it works,
sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's just one
member of the family that's afflicted. Sometimes
the whole family witnesses stuff. So each case
is different. And you got to figure out, okay,
how long have you lived here? 20 years. Well,
when did the activity start? About three years
ago. All right, well, let's stop right here and
work backwards. What happened three years ago
that may have triggered something? All right,
whether it was something paranormal. Or maybe
it was something psychological. Was there a traumatic
event, you know, like an accident or a death
in your family or something like that that traumatized
you? Is someone, you know, addicted to drugs
or alcohol or pornography even? I don't say that
to be funny. Pornography is an addiction, you
know, for some people. And it's also a doorway,
you know. It could be a form of psychosis or
schizophrenia or something like that. Some event
in your life three years ago that triggered what
you're experiencing or you say you're experiencing
now, whether it be real or not. But what I'd
say to people is like, look, people, they're
not making this up. They're not lying to me because
I'd be able to tell. But in their mind, it's
very real. So sometimes it's just taking, it's
just offering comfort. Just lend a shoulder to
cry on kind of thing. I'll go out to someone's
house, have a cup of coffee at their kitchen
table. talk to them uh i might go around the
house and and do a blessing um and uh you know
leave them with a saint benedict medal or a miraculous
medal or something and i give them some homework
to do and if someone's serious about wanting
help they'll do exactly what i ask and that's
one way we tell about if people aren't serious
about it you know i've asked people look go back
to over the last three years and just make a
list of whatever you can remember And two weeks
later, I'll talk to him again. Oh, you haven't
done it yet. Well, then you really don't want
my help. And you probably don't need my help.
Some people need help, but it's not the kind
I can provide, you know. And I'll try to steer
them in the right direction. You probably have
tons of people that contact you. So like you
really, your time is very limited. So like for
someone to come and try to fake something to
you or try to act like they're there, there's
something that they're not really waste a lot
of your time. So you really don't have to do
your due diligence, obviously. And I respect
that completely. Yeah. Yeah. It's not all rainbows
and sunshine. Sometimes dealing with people,
you deal with them individually or as a whole.
I would do is I interview the family independently
and sometimes all together to see if the stories
jive. We were on the phone for two hours the
other night, some of my colleagues and I. talking
to this gentleman that started out as I got a
demonic issue and it turned into aliens and alien
abduction. And he started talking about this,
that and the other thing. So let's try to get
to the root of the problem. And, you know, it
turned into abandonment issues. My dad abandoned
us when I was seven years old and this, that
and the other thing. I definitely feel the guy's
got an issue, but I don't think it's a paranormal
issue. He's never spoken to a professional. I
asked him if he spoke to a professional. He said
no. He said he had some pictorial evidence. I
asked him to send me the evidence. He wasn't
comfortable sending it over the Internet or sharing
it. I'm like, well, you know, I spent two hours
on the phone with you and a couple of my colleagues,
and, you know, we just went round robin, and
we ended up back in the same place we started.
And, you know, like, look, we really, you know,
I said, you know, I think you could benefit from
some psychiatric help, you know, or even talk
to your priest. Oh, the priest won't talk to
me. Have you tried? No. He says he's a devout
Catholic. But, you know, I said, you know, talk
to your priest, talk to psychiatrists, talk to
your doctors. Not only had he not done any of
that, he wasn't willing to do so. So you want
my help? I'm giving you the best advice I can
based on what you're telling me. And you're refusing
to do it. What do you want me to do for you?
Now I'm like, now I've wasted two hours of my
time. My wife's not happy with me because that's
two hours I could have taken her to a movie.
And I'm not even kidding. My wife is a saint
because I spend a lot of time away from her and
the kids when they were younger. My kids are
all adults now. But, you know, I spent a lot
of time away from them working, helping others,
you know, and it's very gratifying. And she I
wouldn't be where I am today without her support.
But I don't blame her when she gets upset at
me sometimes because I'm out helping other people,
but I'm neglecting them, you know, and that's
not fair. So if someone's wasting my time like
that, I'm not going to be happy about it. Yeah.
I was on the phone, you know, with my friend
Tom and Stacia and Father Bob. And we had a conversation
afterwards. I'm like, this is just a waste of
time. The guy's not listening. Yeah. Very easily
triggered. You know, I had mentioned to him,
I said, well, I firmly believe that you believe
this. And he's like, well, wait a minute. Did
you just say that I believe this? I go, yeah,
that's exactly what I said. You believe that
that's really happened to you. I said, whether
it did or not, I don't know. I said, I don't
know you from a hole in the wall. Yeah. And the
brain can visually make that happen. Like they
can visually make you, your brain will actually,
after a while, it'll actually trick you into
believing what you're believing, you know, after
a long enough time. So, you know, obviously you're
absolutely right about that. He could have been
definitely believing that. Well, the mind is
a very powerful thing. One of the first questions
I ask people is how much TV do you watch? how
many of these youtube channels do you watch because
the seed sometimes not only has been planted
it's been nurtured and watered and fed it's like
it's psychosomatic you know you've watched some
of this so much of this crap that now you're
starting to believe you know for example you
sit there all by yourself at two o 'clock in
the morning in the pitch dark watching the exorcist
how many people have done that yeah but but the
thing is when that movie's over It's time to
go to bed and you're all alone. Every little
creak and noise that you hear, you're going to
start looking around like, oh, do I have a demon
here? Absolutely. I'm kidding. But seriously,
it gets in your head. And then I always tell
people, always look for a natural solution to
an issue. Instead of the supernatural. i mean
because what is paranormal para means above above
which is normal or outside the scope of the scientific
explanation all right but not too much is if
you really look into it i hear scratching in
the walls and growling and we'll do some digging
maybe you got squirrels or raccoons in the attic
or something you got mice or rats and i've had
cases where we found evidence of that you know
um but but look for a natural solution but a
lot of people out there don't want that. They
want it so bad to be paranormal because they
think it's cool. Yeah, baby, it's cool. No, it's
not cool. For someone that's really afflicted
by something horrible, it's not cool. And that's
insulting to me and it's insulting to them. Absolutely.
And you want to know, I want to end on that right
there because you're absolutely right on that.
Oh, we have time already? Yeah. I tell you what,
we've got to have you come back on, Joe, because
we've got so much to talk about. I tell you,
our whole podcast, what we believe in is about
going in with respect and dealing with these
spirits with respect because, you know, obviously
we're not equipped to be doing provocation in
any way. So we keep that to the professionals
like yourself. But, you know, we obviously respect.
You know, I feel you. I know you don't want to
do it. You know, I totally understand it. It's
dangerous, you know, definitely. But I appreciate
your time, man, so much. Thank you. I had a great
time. I appreciate it. You guys are so gracious.
I'd love to come back on. Let me know. I definitely
will. All right, guys. Thank you so much. I appreciate
it. All right. Take care, Joe. All right. Bye,
guys. Take care. Bye. Wow, babe. What did you
think? I love Joe. I don't know. He's awesome.
His energy is amazing. He's so knowledgeable.
I mean, there's just so much I could say, honestly.
I mean, if you've never met him or talked to
him in person, I mean, he's just, he's amazing.
He really is. Yeah. We got to talk at the paranormal
thing that we did together, this conference thing
that I talked about. And it was cool to meet
him when I first met him. And he's been just
a great friend and everything all the way around.
Just a great person. I mean, the work that he
does is very serious. And him expressing what
he's expressing tonight is so important to show
our viewers this because. They really need to
understand that this is serious. This is not
a joke. This field is not a joke. It's something
serious and a lot of bad things can happen to
you if you're not really equipped for what you
are doing. Right. And it's not even just that,
like the amount of research that actually goes
into handling the case, like the kind of cases
that he handles. It's like he said, it's months
to years. And I mean, people think you can go
in and get it accomplished in, you know, a couple
hours. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But thank you guys
so much for tuning in for another episode of
talking with the source. We truly appreciate
you guys always. Thank you so much. Everyone
listening on Spotify, Apple music, everything,
just Google podcasts, all that. Thank you so
much for listening. We truly appreciate the support.
Keep tuning in. We have all new episodes. We
have an episode tomorrow with Phantom Detectives,
so tune in for that. We will be putting a post
up to let you know what time it is, so we'll
be excited to have them on. But thank you guys
so much for watching, and we will see you soon.
This is the area where apparently you can hear
the whistling of Art or Arthur, the man that
died of a heart attack, constructing this part
of the lift locks. We actually went right down
there. It's just trees. The biggest animal we're
going to get in here is a badger or deer. If
it was a deer, we'd be seeing it. Did you live
here?