Today, we are joined by co -founder Rob Solomon
of Demo. Rob, thanks for joining us today. It's
always fun to talk to you. I have to say, obviously,
I'm a big fan of Demo, everything you guys are
doing. I think at this point, I have about 250
autopies out in the wild, but remarkable with
all the updates you guys are constantly shipping.
I feel like you're at every freaking event. I
would argue that you might be the most, probably
are the most dedicated team in Deepin right now.
Always a pleasure to be able to talk to you guys.
We feel very dedicated. A lot of respect for
other projects too, but yeah, it's certainly
all -consuming. For sure, man. And we're going
to be touching on a lot, especially some of the
new updates that we're seeing with the network,
some very exciting things happening. But before
we get into all that, we'd love for you to give
us your background and the things you did leading
up to joining DEMA. Yeah, right. I'll go in reverse
chronological. Right before this, I was at ConsenSys.
I was there for four years. i got into i got
into crypto in 2016 joined them in 2017 and i
think i think when you get into crypto says a
little bit about what you care about or at least
like paints your your uh approach a little bit
and at the time when i got in it was when people
were starting to kind of have their eyes eyes
open to dows identity voting supply chains commerce
like all being revolutionized on chain i think
eras before that were maybe a little bit more
um digital gold bitcoin centric eras afterwards
have been a little bit more nft and meme coin
centric so i think you see a lot of that in the
design for demo and really you know i had the
chance to leave consensus to start some other
things and i just never really wanted i liked
consensus and uh i wasn't willing to work on
any project that didn't really like live up to
those true web 3 ideals And DEMO was the first
one where it's like, man, everything about this
makes sense. The token, but also the protocol
built on blockchain can't really exist without
blockchain. It's such a needed technology where
automotive is converging with self -driving electrification.
So anyway, I'm getting ahead to what DEMO does.
Before ConsenSys, I was at Vroom and that was
use cars online. So I didn't think I would get
to combine cars and crypto, but here we are.
And before that, actually, I was in one of the
most interesting jobs you could ever have, which
was I was working with Zappos on their downtown
Vegas revitalization. And I was working with
Tony Hsieh there. They were doing this whole
like decentralized org structure with holacracy.
It's kind of what got me interested in these
decentralized systems in the first place. And
so I was out in Vegas for three years. That's
my entire career history to this point. All right.
Well, there's certainly some background there
that lines up with what you're doing with Demo
between both crypto and being in the automotive
industry. And really, all of the co -founders
with Demo all have, you guys all bring something
different to the table, but you all have backgrounds
that make sense for this project. I think in
a couple of videos I've done covering Demo, I
characterized you guys as like the dream team
for this project. So there should be no shock
to anyone that you all have been able to hit
some major milestones. I was looking actually
earlier today, you guys just hit 123 ,000 vehicles
connected. I think it was just over 122 ,000
yesterday. So certainly seeing some growth. I
think it's safe to say that the new flagship
hardware device is now shipping. So I think we're
seeing the proof in that with the numbers, but
not just the mono cars that are connected, but
talking about the developer licenses, because
I think there's this big misconception about
what you all are doing. So a lot of people I
talk to in the community, they think that you're
basically just connecting vehicles, taking telematics
data and selling raw data. But you are really
building a deep end network, right? So certainly
that's one end of it, building the supply side,
if you will, with the connected vehicles. But
on the other end, you have developers building
useful applications and really helping vehicle
owners build a relationship with that data. And
seeing the amount of growth on the developer
side has been really cool to see. especially
over the last few months since you launched the
developer console, which we'll talk about a little
bit more in a minute. But I really want to talk
about the D2, the next chapter, if you will,
in Devo and the rebranding. You guys launched
a pretty slick commercial recently. Let me pull
that up here. So really, really good job on that,
by the way. But it's more than just a visual
change, right? So I want to have you speak to
some of the other changes that come with this.
new rebranding if you will uh md2 i mean yeah
to your point about the developer licenses like
we almost have to reintroduce ourselves because
early on like the first version of demo that
we started publicly talking about there were
versions before that that are also pretty interesting
and we'll come back around with with the current
version of demo but the the first version we
talked about was like we'll help monetize electric
vehicle data like will help sell your battery
data and get you a dividend i think a lot of
people still think about demo as a way to monetize
data and it's it is but it's but it's really
not that really we're closer to we're building
the global api layer for cars it's like you know
you can connect to any bank account in any app
with plaid well you can have a you know connect
your car to this app with demo button on anything
whether it's uh insurance and you just want to
get like an insurance quote immediately like
not even type in your van and odometer and how
much you drive every year and all this stuff
just like log in once and there's your quote
there's a quote from 10 000 different insurance
companies and they'll notify you whenever you
know you get a better one or something like that
um if you want to i mentioned earlier there was
there's another version of demo the first version
of demo actually was a parking garage where you
would get out of your car and the sensors in
the garage would talk to your car and help it
park itself no matter what kind of car you had
from any automaker, right? So there's no shared
protocol to develop an app for a car that can
read data from the vehicle, send commands back
to the vehicle and charge it money for parking.
That's what DEMO is building. That's what this
developer license is all about. So yes, DEMO
mobile is an app for DEMO, not the app for DEMO.
It is an app for DEMO where you can log in and
see some data and insights for your car, manage
your car, see your rewards. I'm actually personally
building a competitor to our own mobile app on
web. That's going to have a bit more, some like
more power user features. I'm just going to build
that in my spare time over the holidays. We have
people building insurance applications, social
applications. Imagine a Pokemon Go style game
where you drive around and you do whatever, right?
So you connect your car to these apps. It's always
your choice. It's just like with an iPhone where
you can download an app and then you can choose
to share your photos and Bluetooth and location
with it or not. or just never download the app
at all. It's your choice. So you will choose
to use these apps and share your data with it
and enjoy them. So yeah, we have developers booking
those apps now. I'm so excited for those to launch.
I think it'll really open people's minds to what
Demo can be. And it's a huge part of this flywheel.
So I think a lot of people, our goal historically
was not as clear as maybe others were, right?
Building a decentralized map with HiveMapper
or a decentralized cell network with... with
helium you can say in one sentence it's super
clear building like an app ecosystem for your
car is kind of confusing it's like does that
mean car play like what do you mean by that but
once they're actually shipping it's much easier
to point to it and say you know apple didn't
advertise the app stores it's coming they said
hey there's an app for that it already exists
here's an example right so we'll start having
that i think will really kind of change people's
minds about just how big this can be these are
trillion dollar industries that we can uh disrupt
yeah and that's one of the things i love about
this project there's so many different ways that
you can go with it there's so many useful applications
that you build within your ecosystem um and we're
seeing some of that and we'll touch on some of
those applications uh and um that's interesting
you're building your own application i'm sure
you have a lot of free time these days to do
that but uh what about the the new global accounts
and wallet systems so i know Part of the goal
here is to make it easier for people to connect
and kind of remove some of that friction with
it being a crypto project. Yeah, we were, you
know, so we always knew this was coming to like
our we talked to our investors. It was years
ago and it's like, well, launch with, you know,
log in with MetaMask and your early adopters
will be fine with it. You'll have to fix it for
mass adoption stage, but. At least you can start
building the fundamentals and then you can swap
out the wallet engine later. And so we knew that
was coming. And it was really, you know, it was
fortunate that we waited because it was really
the developer conversations. When you're talking
to smaller developers, like people like me building
an app, you can get with anything you want. But
when you're talking to a national insurance company,
it's not like, you know, add RainbowKit to your
website. They're just not going to do that. They're
not going to do almost anything more than just
click a button and then enter a password, share
your car, and then the pop -up disappears and
they're just like good to go forever. So that
really guided our requirements for building this.
And it was a lot of work. And I think honestly,
there are great, I love what Privy's done. I
love what Dynamics done. I love what a lot of
the other companies have done, but. Really kind
of what we've built for ourselves is more powerful
than people realize. So you'll be able to go
to any app built by any developer and safely
pop open human readable transactions like share
your car, revoke access to your car, transfer
tokens, whatever. No nonce blockchain, you're
on optimism, whatever. None of that. It'll just
be the user experience you're used to. And we
had to build it with these large enterprises
in mind. So we're ready now for the kind of mass
adoption stage with this wallet system. And another
thing that was happening too, people were getting
their wallets hacked. There was like phishing
issues in our disk where people would post a
question, they would get inundated with DMs,
people trying to like get them to sign some stuff.
Like people, you still have a blockchain wallet
with Demo, but you control it through account
abstraction and we can just provide a lot more
protection to users. So that's not happening
anymore, which is nice. That's super exciting.
And it is going to enable you to go to that next
stage and really get in with some of these bigger
web two companies like you mentioned. But that
is interesting because I thought of it, OK, making
a better user experience from the vehicle owner.
But it's also going to enable you to have a better
experience and get in with some of these people
more on the demand side as well. Anything else
on D2? Because I want to talk about the move
to. face chain and the coinbase uh learn campaign
that you all just launched that's a huge announcement
obviously um so definitely want to dig in there
about that transition and then as far as like
token support because that's a question i'm seeing
a lot uh across x twitter x whatever you want
to call it uh so anything you can talk about
on that that end as well yeah this is all part
of d2 but d2 really just means like demo chapter
two it's like It's sort of like with bass with
their on -chain summer. It's just like, there's
going to be a lot of announcements and let's
just give it a name because it's going to be
like a drumbeat. You're just going to, every
couple of weeks, it's like something is bigger
than the last thing. And we're not even halfway
through like all the things that we want to launch
and do and announce. So it's, yeah, it's an exciting
time. And really D2 just, there was a brand refresh
to kick it off to kind of give it an aesthetic
and a name. But everything coming after that
is pure substance. So yeah, this is all part
of it. Okay, interesting. Well, you know, I did
get, I'm upset. I got the D2 tattoo and I didn't
even get the token. I'm just kidding. Did you
actually? I didn't really get the tattoo. But
I saw that announcement in Discord. I'm like,
somebody's definitely going to get that tattoo.
yeah i was surprised how many people were instantly
like i'm on my way i'm gonna do it and then i'm
glad like one person clearly because my nightmare
was like eight people would come back at the
same time like i did it it's like oh this guy
beats you by five minutes so sorry no that's
not so it worked out so somebody was a clear
winner in that i'm glad glad to hear it um so
okay so the the move to base so that is you know
in essence part of this next chapter What was
the motivation behind that? I know there's a
lot of new liquidity moving over to base right
now and it is definitely a trusted chain, right?
So I'm sure that's part of it, but curious what
the inspiration was behind the move and then
what kind of doors you expect that to open up
for DEMO moving forward? First, let's talk about
what would be moving. So with DEMO, there's a
protocol and the token's a part of it, but the
token kind of like sits inside of it slash adjacent
to it. And the token is already multi -chain
and will continue to be multi -chain. So let's
come back to the token in a second. When I talk
about the rest of the protocol, what I'm talking
about is like, we meant the car identity, the
new digital VIN for your vehicle is on -chain.
You, the driver, your account is a smart contract
on -chain. Your car, the device, which has its
own wallet inside of it, and your account. form
a three -way connection on -chain. And then when
you give access to your vehicle, you are signing
an on -chain transaction in reference to the
developer license, which is also on -chain. So
we're very on -chain. And that's not just to
check some fun crypto box. We're not just masochists
who like to do everything on blockchain. We're
truly trying to build this as a protocol. Meaning,
what's the difference between a protocol and
a SaaS platform? A protocol is like email. where
nobody can shut down SMTP. It is a standard way
of sending emails. And whether you use Google,
Microsoft, Apple, you can participate in this
email ecosystem. Twitter, love Twitter, but it's
not a protocol because one guy can kick you off
of it. It's not like an open system that you
can just freely build. So you have to go through
the company. So a SaaS version of DMO would be,
imagine Apple launched. Hey, we'll give every
car its own Apple car ID. And here's our Apple
developer kit for cars. And by the way, you can
use Apple Pay for your insurance payments and
parking meters. By the way, you have to or else
we'll kick you off. And it's 30 % fees. And oh,
we're launching a competing car now. So we're
going to throttle your service down. Like that
type of centralized SaaS platform just never
work for automotive. We're not doing blockchain
because we think consumers really want it that
much or because we love blockchain. We're doing
it because enterprises. need the kind of neutrality
and openness guarantees that only like email
and internet have, and that closed SaaS systems
don't. So by minting all these things on chain,
what we can basically say is, look, we can disappear.
Our company could disappear forever. You can
still mint these cars on chain till the end of
time. Here's the smart contract. You can see
the permissions on it. It's all open. And right
now we're the only company storing the off -chain
data as a node, but in the future, you can run
your own node and you can store your car's data
anywhere. That's what it is we're doing at the
end of the day. That's what makes the Demo Protocol
so special and so interesting to enterprise.
We talk to crypto people, they get it. We talk
to automotive people, they get it even faster
because they understand the needs and the issues
and why this hasn't really emerged yet. Most
other crypto projects have like a Web2 analog
that's already very successful. There isn't one
really for what we're doing because the version
I mentioned earlier is just a non -starter. So
that protocol. the protocol for establishing
vehicle identity permission sharing all that
kind of stuff that it would be what's moving
to base and the token is already on base optimism
uh polygon and ethereum there are unofficial
versions elsewhere you can wrap it and take it
anywhere you want that's how crypto kind of works
and there will be uh surely be other chains added
In the not too distant future, we hear about
Solana all the time. I like Solana. I love a
lot of Sol. I think it's a great place. I think
there's a lot of cool products over there. It
doesn't really make sense for us to move the
protocol over to Solana. The ethos and the kind
of like developer ecosystem is a little bit different
than EVM for a while, but we're building it's
easier on EVM. And yeah, I'll get into all the
reasons for base for the protocol in a second,
but let's get into that now. So why base? There's
a couple of reasons. working with big automotive
enterprises and small, like all kinds of more
traditional companies and Coinbase and base as
a brand and as an enterprise have just a lot
of tools off chain and on chain for enterprise.
And they have a brand that they're comfortable
with. They have inroads. So it just makes sense
to work with a partner that they will find more
comfort. And that makes our sales cycle easier
rather than harder. They also have a lot of like
financial products that Coinbase is kind of uniquely
able to build as almost a bank. I mean, they're
an exchange, but they're kind of like turning
into a bank. And they can, the on -ramping tools,
off -ramping tools, custody tools, they're just
building so much custom, like, you know, Paymaster
is a sponsor, Gas on Base. Like there's just
so many things that make it easier to develop
there. So those are the two biggest reasons,
honestly. I mean, you already kind of touched
on it. Big ecosystem, big community, a lot of
other projects moving over there. And it's not
just about TVL, it's about... The fact that Cario
is doing car titles on chain, on base. Daylight's
doing D -Pin energy on base. Blackbird, like
Blackbird's doing, they're not really a D -Pin.
They're not really called a D -Pin, but they
kind of are. They're restaurants. And you can
check into those restaurants and let's mint some
food trucks on chain with Demo and show them
on Blackbird, right? So there's a lot of more
interoperability when you're in the kind of like
OP super chain and base specifically. That just
makes things easier. those are the biggest things
they also have just a ton of like optimism and
base just have so many incredible engineers and
talent working on it so you just know it's going
to get better over time as well so those are
the four main reasons the kind of like financial
products the the enterprise um you know inroads
the the interoperability and ecosystem and just
like the future outlook of that chain and how
much talent there is working on it all the points
you made gets me excited because You're talking
about being able to get in with bigger enterprises.
Those are things that I believe you all are going
to be really effective in doing that we've seen
some deep ends, some deep end networks kind of
branch into some of these bigger enterprises.
But we haven't seen anyone really super successful
in that yet. And I think you guys have the opportunity
to really be the first. And the fact that you're
kind of ahead of the game and moving to base.
is is pretty cool too how long out of curiosity
like how long were you y 'all working on that
behind the scenes or so not as long as you think
the the idea with us like we we wanted to surface
it super early because we're just an incredibly
transparent project and rather than spend resources
and time researching how we would actually do
this and planning all these things in secret
it didn't feel right to do that. So the time
from thinking, Hey, we should do this to announcing
was like less than two months. And I mean, there
was, there was definitely some acknowledgement
that something we need to change. I like Polygon
a lot. They have incredible tech. They're building
really cool stuff with CDK. We're on the Polygon
proof of stake chain, which is going to convert
into a Validium, but it's still not, they're
more focused on the ag layer on Polygon CDK and
the ZK EVM stuff. So we knew that a migration.
was going to happen at some point, just because
we were on kind of a side chain that didn't necessarily
have the same future roadmap that we wanted.
So it was always just a matter of which one.
And a couple of months ago is really kind of
when it became a bit more clear that, hey, base
seems to really be the leader in the space. And
it's part of the OP super chain and just so much
momentum there. And any problems that exist there
can be figured out. So let's signal that and
start the research and development there. Hope
to do that by the end of 2025. Love it. Love
it. And again, just to reiterate, the token itself,
right, is still going to be available on, let's
see, I have the list. You have Ethereum. That's
what's supported on Coinbase right now, but Polygon
Optimism Base. And then it sounds like from what
I've read, maybe Solana next year. I know there's
a lot of people that love Solana. Let me pull
this up. This is, no one's seen this. So this
is some Deepin Connection exclusive. love that
so don't judge these designs because our designer
is phenomenal and i modified these a little bit
she'll make these look a lot better but idea
being in the future you'll come into here to
claim your tokens you'll be able to specify the
uh you could add a wallet and look like you could
pick different networks that you want to that
the wallet could exist on you pick the one that
you want You enter the address for it, you add
it, and now it's part of your address book. So
you can put in, I want 16 demo to the Rob's wallet
on base review, tells you what's going to happen.
You hit send and it just goes there in seconds.
So, and that'll be whether it's on, you know,
it'll still be very fast. We're going to be using
wormholes native token transfer to do that. So
that'll be hopefully coming. There are a couple
of things ahead of it in the roadmap and some
of these things can take longer than expected.
So hopefully coming relatively soon. Anyone can
do this stuff now. you don't even need to wait
for us to do it and actually i'm the app that
i'm building one of the reasons i'm building
it is because i want to add these advanced features
faster and just just the way i'm building it
and how kind of low code it is i'll be able to
kind of maybe do things a little bit quicker
but they won't look as nice as the mobile app
so um maybe that'll be coming sooner but you
can go to whatever the superbridge .app i think
it is and migrate to base if you want um you
can migrate to ethereum using the polygon bridge
And there's an unofficial way to go to Solana
via wormhole, but the official one should be
coming. Okay, cool, man. Yeah, all my DMO tokens
are in cold storage, man. I'm keeping them there
for safekeeping. One thing, by the way, I do
want to touch on as far as the tokens go, kind
of related. I mentioned that Coinbase up to this
point has supported the Ethereum. version of
the demo token. I've had some people in my fleet
that accidentally sent their Polygon -based token
to Coinbase. You can recover that now. So I'll
put a link in the show notes below in case someone's
made that mistake. You can now recover your assets.
So I've had a few people successfully do that.
So that's huge. I wish we could tell people in
the app like, hey, this is a Coinbase address.
Don't send it. But we don't know what the Coinbase
address is. it kind of changes based on the user
so yeah i wish i wish we could be more helpful
there but i'm glad that we were able to kind
of get that so they're recoverable well let's
talk about the new flagship device that one right
here oh you have one there okay great yeah very
very compact it's actually it just like feels
like a good product in your hand it looks nice
um it feels good easy to install it's just like
a good piece of iot hardware it's it's nice i
mean it's compact too because i have a lot of
the you know, autopies out there, you know, mounting
them, you know, you, you figure out a good route
to do it, but having this new, nice compact device
for one. And then secondly, it has come at a
lower price point in a dollar, $169 there. So
that's going to be huge man for getting network
growth, obviously, especially in certain markets
that might be a little bit more, you know, sensitive
to price. I think it's going to be really helpful
there too. We should also add, if you have a
software -enabled device or software -enabled
vehicle like a Tesla, you can connect for free
still. So anyone that has a Tesla, you should
already be connected. But if you haven't already,
download the app and get connected. But has LTE
built in? What can you add about this new hardware?
Because it's pretty exciting stuff, man. And
it started shipping just in the last couple of
weeks, right? yeah it's it's super easy to get
started with it's only going to get more useful
like we're going to continue to add features
so the the ability to scan for error codes fell
out of the app for a little bit because of some
back -end glitch that's going to be added back
so we'll scan the car for error codes the the
data decoding will only get better and we're
going to be adding more and more widgets to the
app soon so you can see more and more stuff we
get a lot of data that we don't necessarily expose
to you in the app because we just haven't built
the widgets for it and the widgets that we do
have have some some glitches sometimes so Really,
a couple months ago, we decided, look, we're
going to make onboarding really smooth. And we
focused everything on the getting connected part.
And now we've kind of done that. We still have
some things to tidy up. And then now all the
focus is on how can we make, now that you are
connected, really valuable to you in the app.
So that's going to focus next. So yeah, buy this
device. It'll be the worst it'll ever be. And
it's still really good. It'll only get even more
interesting, even more great to use. it's also
i i love that this is like a crypto product that
everyday people can enjoy i i love ledger hardware
wallets and stuff like that but that's like that's
so you can do more crypto things this is the
thing that you could like put in your your mom's
car and she'd think oh cool and oh this is crypto
interesting it changes my mind about how this
stuff works um i i never thought of crypto this
way and so it's a fun it's a fun product that
way it's kind of unique in that sense it's got
a strong first player mode a lot of a lot of
deep end products again fans of most of them
but a lot of them are primarily you install this
for tokens and forget about it it doesn't really
benefit you you you were trying to help others
that's that's been changing to be fair a lot
a lot of products have like more utility to installing
a miner yourself but this this one has a very
clear hey this this this benefits you and eventually
in the future maybe maybe there's not even a
token center to do it maybe maybe the tokens
go out now and then for the people who are here
early and then in the future you just connect
your car your car comes connected because of
all the incredible things it lets you access
so um yeah it's it's a it's a fun product and
like you mentioned tesla's can connect without
it tesla's actually should not buy it because
the port is hidden behind some trim For all other
cars, it's pretty easy to install. And our website
tells you if it's compatible. And then additionally,
too, a lot of newer cars that have some type
of app login, if you have like MyBMW or MyGMC
or something like that, you can log in and connect
for free with that as well. But we recommend
that you connect both because you'll earn a lot
more and you'll just see a lot more data. A couple
other things there. For one, it's like a... perfect
gift for the holidays like seriously for your
family you know stocking stuff or whatever like
freaking awesome gift but uh you guys have let's
see two years of lte built in uh as of right
now now one thing i wanted to ask about that
there was a dip that was up for a vote that got
shot down probably a few months ago i think that
was going to roll the cost of the lte into the
reward structure so do you do you foresee potentially
another dip down the road that could look at
that again in a different fashion that might
get approved yeah i wish we could be less hand
-wavy about what happens after the two years
because people want to know that um generally
people got two years that's a long time that's
that's that's good and i'll get that's enough
for me to buy it but yeah after two years either
there will be some subscription to stay connected
or it will just like come out of your rewards
or there will be something built in to the kind
of ecosystem for it. What we're doing this year
in 2025, if it passes, there's a vote live now,
is the foundation will simply cover the cost
of the kind of cloud components. So for Teslas
and smart cars that cost money to connect, the
foundation will cover that monthly cost. We don't
have to charge users. There's some cloud costs
with the, physical devices as well for just like
managing the devices that we'll cover and that
could extend to lte in the future ideally there's
enough revenue coming in from developers building
on demo that we can subsidize or completely cover
the cost of connection still tbd but at the end
of the day we we don't want that to be an obstacle
to people joining we can add so much value to
this ecosystem uh to drivers and the apps building
on them that why let a small sim subscription
get in the way of that so we'll try to figure
something out for 2026 but Anyone who buys one
now, two years covered. I don't think the data
usage is super high either. And you have to go
through, is it Twilio, right? Because you can
connect to different networks depending on -
It's not expensive, yeah. So even if you did
charge something for just the SIM alone, it's
not bad. So one other question I have about this
new flagship device, because when you're going
to the Autopi, you really were using a third
party for all the manufacturing. You didn't really
have much control over - the manufacturing process
um by going with this new flagship model do you
have i assume you have more control over manufacturing
and kind of keeping up with demand i'm curious
how that works in the back end with you guys
no i mean it's kind of similar to autopilot actually
it's we're working with a third -party company
called reptila you can look them up and their
plug 5 device looks remarkably similar to this
one the only difference is the secure element
so i mentioned earlier it has an evm wallet built
into it So that's, that's the main difference
between this and their plug five. That's why
they're plugged. You don't, don't, don't buy
the plug five off of their website, trying to
connect it to demo because it's not compatible.
It needs to be the demo version that we saw on
our site for it to work. But the reason we wanted
to work with them is they've been around for
decades and they've decoded lots of cars. You
know, the, the, the way to think about the canvas,
the port that you plug these into is you get
data out, but it's scrambled. And for a lot of
cars, it's standardized. That's why we can't
really support before 2008, because before then
there was really nothing standardized. And it
just kind of comes out as mush. And it's very
hard to decode. After that, a lot of things are
standard. There's still some variation. So there's
still some cars that we can't support. And honestly,
with our website, we say a lot of cars aren't
supported. They probably are. We just don't know.
So we say they're not because we don't want to
give people a bad experience. But your car will
probably work with this new device. But we still
need to, there are still some more niche codes
that we need to decode for more cars. We have
some people working on that, that will give you
even more obscure and accurate data for it. But
Reptila as a company has already done so much
of that. So for someone who maybe plugged in
an autopilot for my car, it was showing the wrong
odometer and the wrong fuel level, or it would
constantly show 13 % as my fuel. Then it would
show the right one, then it would go back down
to 30%, then back to the right one. And it was
because the device didn't know how to interpret
the signals coming off. The R1 already has that
out of the box. We didn't have to do anything
for it. So Rotella is a great partner in that
sense. They're also a great partner that they
can produce a million of these things pretty
quickly if they need to. They've been around
for a while. They produce a lot of devices, and
they can scale. That's great news because I think
we might start seeing a lot more demand. It's
hard to predict. So having a partner that can
scale up as you need it is really important,
especially in the crypto industry. Things can
change very quickly. And I had known that you
had to decode the information that you were getting.
I had no idea exactly how that worked. I know
that over time. you know certain vehicles that
i'm connected to are getting more data over time
so i figured you guys were making improvements
but that's really cool that this new device certainly
has more of that information readily available
that's a big win for sure moving from the you
know supply side if you will and the connected
vehicles i do want to touch more on the developer
console you know one of the things I've seen
is if you look at the number of developer licenses
back in August, when you all launched this new
console, you were at about 19. You guys have
more than tripled. I think you're up to like
70 developer licenses, at least what's showing
on Dune. So that's huge growth there. Love to
see that because that's a critical piece of all
of this, right? It's not as important as any
piece is getting the apps built. making that
data valuable for vehicle owners. So there were
some recent changes with, you know, the SDK,
some API improvements. I'm not sure what you
can speak about on that end. Yeah, we're always
trying to make it easier to get started building.
So there's, you think about like developing on
any type of platform, right? There's going to
be, you're typically going to start off with
a more raw experience, whether, you know, the
APIs give you less structured data, there's fewer
options. And then a more mature ecosystem is
one where there's polished and refined UIs for
getting started. There's great documentation.
There's lots of components and plugins, off -the
-shelf things that you can just embed and use.
You don't have to even build things. APIs that
give you different cuts, like that query the
data differently and analyze it until you just
like the output instead of giving you the raw
data and making you calculate it. So we're just
always adding more things like that. the great
part about it now is we're not really doing it
in isolation anymore where we're just kind of
guessing what developers want we're talking to
the developers who are building and hearing what
their needs are like what do you need to get
on block this okay then we can build that and
we try to build things that are reusable for
others and so that's that's been a great experience
to get close to the customer it's so much easier
to find product market fit and i just we can
i can just kind of tell that our journey our
our map of getting to product market fit is so
much more clear now it's like we have it's almost
like we have like turn by turn gps guidance now
as opposed to before we were just kind of like
charting the stars so so it's uh it's becoming
more clear love that man and actually i want
to talk about some of the specific applications
that are being built uh i want to touch on this
one uh is i think it's nembler for insurance
yeah i mean i i forget who said it but they said
like even if ai didn't get any better for the
next 10 years we could spend 10 years just commercializing
what we've already got and there's just so many
things in automotive i think like automotive
is maybe one of the the most classic examples
of just like information asymmetry and not knowing
what to do with your car it's like you you you
sell your car to a dealer you take the trade
-in offer because i don't know where else would
i sell it who else like you know the buyer doesn't
know enough about the history of the vehicle
so don't like realistically pay for it they don't
know if it's got some issues with it um insurance
it's like i you know i had to go through get
insurance recently and for some reason i couldn't
get an online quote i don't know what it is maybe
because i live in new york city but i couldn't
get an online quote so i had to call like three
different it's like it took me all day it was
like half of a saturday was spent just calling
around to three insurance companies like and
that's so how competitive is that market if that's
all i can get and by the way wildly different
pricing so If AI can help to sift through both
on the consumer side, like where should I get
my car serviced? What does it need? What should
I get? Whatever. When should I sell it? Where
should I sell it? But also on the developer side,
on the business side, they need to make sense
of all this data coming in. They need to underwrite
policies. They need to broker the right things,
get you to the right stuff and deal with a lot
of data on your end. And by the way, they're
dealing with like people inputting their bins
wrong, lying about the odometer, just all kinds
of just. like silly things um so if we can make
that smoother and remember these are these are
like hundreds of billions of dollars industries
trillion dollar industries there's there's just
so much waste if you can just make them five
percent more efficient we're talking about tens
of billions of dollars every year that just like
inefficiency you can eke out that could that
could you know filter back down to demo so i
think we have one of the biggest like tams in
the in the defense space when you consider it
that way For sure. Yeah. So I didn't touch on
Nimbler, but Nimbler is an AI insurance use case
that helps people find personalized insurance
based on their driving data. Okay. So usage -based
insurance. I looked into that quite a bit. It's
huge in Europe. It's growing in the US. But one
thing I do want to touch on, you did touch on
this earlier, but this comes up a lot around
this insurance topic because uh people are worried
that oh if i plug you know connect my vehicle
to demo my data is going to be all over the place
that's not the case you have to authorize the
you know the usage of your data so you know for
this insurance uh situation being able to get
a customized plan in a more efficient way i mean
you're talking about you just spent half a freaking
day half your saturday trying to get an insurance
plan that's wild so uh i think that's super exciting
uh and we'll see where that goes but like you
said it's a massive industry that's just one
industry The next one I actually want to talk
about is in fleet management. You announced a
recent partnership with GoNext. Yeah, GoNext
is awesome. Look, there is fleet. Fleet telematics
is one of the most obvious things to do with
vehicle data, right? Like if you own a car, you're
not asking, where is my car? Maybe, you know,
I actually use it all the time. It's street sweeping.
I forget where I parked my car. You know, where
is it in the city? Is it on this block, the next
block? I use it all the time. But if you're a
fleet. you've got hundreds of cars. You've got
other people driving them. They've got issues.
You don't even know about it. Error code pops
up. What is that? I'm not going to take all my
cars. It's like you need to be able to kind of
remotely diagnose, track, manage, fix these cars.
Fleet telematics is kind of like a non -negotiable
thing. People need to have that. And one of the
key insights with Dmo early on was because I
mentioned earlier we were going to be a parking
garage app. Then the next thing was we were going
to pay people to install a physical device in
their EVs so we could track the EV battery data.
Because we had been hired by another company
to go get that data and analyze it, and we couldn't
get it. So we're like, okay, well, let's go get
it ourselves. And it was like, why would we build
this one -off integration just for ourselves
when we could build a platform? It's like, imagine
if Uber shipped you a phone to call Ubers with.
It's like, no, just give them one good phone
that can do everything. A lot of people are used
to using telematics apps or insurance apps or
whatever, where they mail you a dongle. It's
a cheap, crappy dongle. It doesn't work super
great. And you're locked into just that app.
So telematics exists, but typically it's a more
locked -in experience and quite an expensive
experience because you kind of have that vendor
lock -in. Really, you just need to track where
these cars are. You need to know what maintenance
needs to be done on them. You know who's driving
them. You need to give people permission to it.
We can do all that way cheaper by connecting
the car one time and making it compatible with
everything else and kind of earning money each
time it connects to something else rather than
only having like the one thing that it does.
Fleet is one that we've kind of shied away from
a little bit ourselves just because most of our
users are individual consumers who have less
than 10 cars. telematics companies are kind of
seeing the power of not having to build their
own devices not having to build their own their
own platform you know just tap into it to build
fleet applications quickly so go next and others
are our fleet telematics providers that are building
different fleet dashboards for enterprise that
can get started quickly with demo yeah i'm i'm
super excited about this one because i do have
some businesses some fleets that i've connected
with autopies where you know i share the rewards
so i've got a couple of turo fleets i also have
a shipping company so um so i they can definitely
make use of it because they're they're paying
for fleet tools otherwise right and they're not
cheap you know people are spending a lot of money
on these fleet management tools 20 bucks a month
per car yeah not not expensive yeah and so for
a lot of people too they just like suffered through
it again i mentioned like i used to work at vroom
and so a couple things i can tell you insider
baseball here we had thousands of cars in a lot
and by the way dealers don't like own the cars
they finance them through a bank they call it
a floor plan but think of it as like a massive
multi -car car loan and we're settling tens of
millions of dollars when we buy and sell cars
and again like another thing perfect for for
being on chain and i mentioned earlier we could
facilitate payments we could make that a lot
more efficient but the uh every month the bank
would come to make sure we still had the cars
that they were financing because like you can't
underwrite an asset that the you no longer own
because it's already been sold to a customer
but the way that there's like again car sales
aren't digital it's like a it's like a paper
process thing. And sometimes we would miss that
we sold a car or something like that. And they
would have to come out and find every single
vehicle. It would take three days of driving
around the lot. Two of our employees, three days
going around with a bank person every month to
just put their hands on every single car, just
totally unnecessary. And a $30 a month fleet
telematics solution does not make sense for a
dealership with a thousand cars. So we're trying
to invent our own systems. It's just a mess.
Why does it need to be that way? These cars should
come off the, roll off the assembly line connectivity
demo. But if they're not, pop in a cheap device
and then move it from car to car, we can be a
great use case there. Yeah, anyway. Miranda Royal,
I saw that came up. I love that one too. I didn't
mean to throw that up there yet. But yeah, that
is, talk about a waste of time for everybody
in that situation, right? Having all your vehicle
data on -chain is going to change so many things
too. Being able to have that history there, being
able to track everything on -chain. is going
to be huge moving forward it's going to open
up so many different doors uh and i do want to
talk about other ones too but i do want to talk
about royal i did put that up a little bit early
but that's a super exciting one this one uh is
a pretty new partnership or newly announced at
least for tesla owners yeah i like it because
it kind of just opens everyone's minds to what
demo is i think it's a great great case study
right so they look at your charging data for
your tesla and really it doesn't have to be tesla's
but tesla's just the one make that we have fine
-grained enough charging data for the other ones
we're working on it but we don't have the same
degree of charging data for um so so far it's
only tesla but they look at where you've charged
your car they can tell if the carbon offsets
for your car have already been sold and if not
they sell them for you so your car is you know
charging evs you're generating carbon offsets
they sell it and they give you uh just cash back
So when you sign up with Royal now, you first
get started, you earn 15 bucks with your eligible
Tesla. And then you earn the rest of it when
they, when they actually sell your carbon offset.
So it's when people ask, like, you know, I have
a Tesla, I already have a Tesla app. Why would
I download demo? It's like, well, Tesla is not
going to build just like Apple doesn't build
every app for your iPhone. Sure. Like you might
not like the competing notes app that someone
else builds compared to Apple's notes app, but
Apple doesn't build dating apps and Pokemon go
and Netflix. I guess they do build their own
version of Netflix, but it's not as good. So
they don't build every app. And similarly, Tesla
doesn't have this royal carbon offset app that's
built by Tesla. By the way, nothing but good
things to say about Tesla. They are awesome when
it comes to this. They have fully embraced the
kind of open ecosystem. uh idea with with connected
cars and launch their own api platform so that's
why we're able to provide such a good experience
to tesla owners but my point to tesla drivers
is just like not everything's going to be in
the tesla app and so a company like demo a project
like demo can help you access new types of experiences
and for developers and every developer wants
to build a tesla only app they want to build
an app for every car and people makes that easier
makes sense yeah and uh because you guys have
a direct api with tesla right i think you made
an announcement over the summer i know recently
that's pretty cool are there uh any other apps
specifically or use cases looking forward um
you know things outside of the box maybe we're
not people aren't thinking about uh that you
see as a huge opportunity here's one thing about
let's leave royal up for a second that i think
is like such a big point people also don't understand
about demo is We're talking to another fleet
telematics company that's built for EVs. And
they want to build on Demo because they want
easy access to EVs via API because we make it
easier. But they also want to build on Demo because
it's like, well, we want to offer Royal to our
customers. And by nature of it being built also
on Demo, the more things that are built on Demo,
the easier it is to integrate these things. So
think about what makes Shopify. Shopify is great
on its own, but it's even better because... It
has a Stripe integration and a QuickBooks integration
and an Avalara integration and analytics. It
can integrate all these things. That makes it
really, really good, really compelling. So for
Demo, right now, it's pretty compelling on its
own. But man, imagine you're a developer and
it's like, all right, I want to build an app
for mechanics. And it's like the apps for ordering
parts, the apps for... you know looking up service
history and all the records of what's ever happened
to this vehicle and the insurance apps they're
all built on demo too and i can just like get
that through the same pipe and it's all open
and inexpensive and easy to use like no break
you'd be insane not to build your application
on demo so that's that's just starting This is
like the twinkle in the eye of that network effect
is one company saying, I like this Royal thing.
Let's bring it on. And it's going to become such
a huge part. It's such like a powerful flywheel
that between the token, between the first party
utility, between our ability to launch apps through
our marketplace and get people's eyes on it,
to the interoperability, the ease of use. There's
just so many things in that flywheel that'll
get it really, really going pretty good. It really
is genius. I think my first vehicle I was connected
to was like the seven, like number 7 ,000 and
see where we're at now. Right. It kind of likened
it in one of my videos to, you know, if you build
it, they will come type of deal. You know, as
more vehicles get connected to the network, more
developers are going to want to come to the ecosystem.
You're going to attract more and more on the
demand side. And to see that it's happening now,
you know, Royal is a great example of that. And
then hearing you speak about it. There's just
so many different opportunities and ways this
can go and so many big industries you all can
tap into. You know, I know Alex and speaking
with him, he's like, look, I believe that in
2025, we can be one of the largest revenue producing
deep in networks that exist. And I think 2025
is going to be a big year for that and taking
that next step forward. I'm super excited, man.
But that does lead me into some of the. Things
that are up for a vote right now, speaking of
2025. Now, I do want to touch on, there's three
that are open. So the timing is great. I believe
the voting is open until December 22nd. So we
still have a few more days here. Until Saturday,
I think. Okay. I'll work to get this thing edited
and posted so people can watch this. The first
one is DIP 3 Amendment 2. And this is, you know,
to update the tokenomics. and really it's going
to have an impact on on -chain revenue so if
you could touch on that one yeah i mentioned
earlier kind of how we shifted from hey we help
sell your data to it's an app platform for developers
and the first version of this was we called we
have baseline issuance which is a bunch of tokens
we're just set aside in the beginning as a reward
for drivers every week just to thank them for
joining the network and a lot of people think
it's from us selling their data it's not this
is just promotional token set aside to distribute
to the people who are really helping to build
this thing out by joining early and connecting
their car. So that's baseline rewards. And there
was this concept of marketplace rewards. So baseline
being default, marketplace being as you interact
with apps in the ecosystem, as they pay for your
attention, as they buy your data, some percentage
of that would go back to you. Some percentage
of that would... be burned as tokens. So create
demand for the demo token. And that was really
more of a model that was like, all right, well,
we don't know how much the data is going to be
worth. It's going to be more case by case. So
let's just say a certain percentage of it goes
back. But that's not really what we're building
anymore. What we're building is a... And by the
way, there will still be that use case. And I'll
get into that in a second. But what we're building
is you want to build an app, you want to connect
to someone's car, here's a cost per month to
do that. And one person will connect their car
to 10, 20, 100 different apps. And each of those
apps will be paying a certain amount per month
per car times 1 .5 billion cars in the world.
Lots of revenue. So keeping it nice and simple
for now. In the future, it'll get a little bit
more complicated. I'm sure we'll have... different
support levels like you know maybe it's a dollar
to connect to a car and get just a little bit
of data if you want more higher refresh rate
more types of data it's more if you want video
data it's more if you want processed and analyzed
video data to know um we're actually talking
to a company i don't know if i'm allowed to say
who yet but they would be doing uh processed
video data where it's like if you want to search
for every time the car encountered a school bus
or a pedestrian or whatever and you wanted to
get that video data you'd be able to and see
what the car did be able to purchase that maybe
that costs even more so there will be more complexity
added in the future but the idea is like just
let's make it easier for developers who want
to access that car data i mentioned earlier that
the other use case of the dating will still exist
and there are people building and about to launch
a data union where you will be able to as a user
to opt in that dating will be buying your data
and they'll help monetize it and give you some
of that money back and that's that's your opt
-in if you don't want to share your data with
the dating you don't have to they'll be transparent
about the terms on which they're reselling your
data it'll probably be aggregate anonymized so
it's not going to raise your insurance rates
maybe they're just selling road quality data
traffic data that kind of stuff and helping you
to make money. Okay. I didn't even know that
there was the possibility of you all accessing
the camera data at some point. We don't currently,
but people got to remember, DEMO is a more abstract
protocol. It's a way to establish identity, ingest
data, serve the data, charge for it, and facilitate
data commands in commerce. What that data is,
what the objects are even right now it's very
vehicle oriented maybe in the future you connect
a refrigerator to dmo so really um you know earlier
i could get on a soapbox for a little bit about
um building a d -pin specific chain or l1 or
anything like that at the end of the day there's
block space and consensus and why compete in
that commodity market and then there's smart
contracts that form the basis of a protocol for
establishing identity and payments and permissions
and ours can be generalized so we expect many
things right now we're starting with cars because
we're looking for real product market fit we
don't want to stay too general and build a little
bit of something for everybody and and but nothing
good for anybody we want to build something really
good for a select group and then expand from
there that all makes sense And I am, by the way,
I've already voted in favor of that DIP3. I think
anything that can bring more utility to the token
that can bring the revenue on chain is going
to be a really good thing for everyone involved.
So I'm very much in favor of that. DIP6 Amendment
5 is the next one. That's just talking about
the budget for 2025. Very important, obviously.
You'd mentioned already earlier about. you know
covering the cost of having some of these software
connected vehicles uh but anything you want to
touch on there as far as you know the budget
looking forward for next year yeah i mean you
know we try to be very transparent um more than
more than most uh because we think it's helpful
i think it's the right thing to do we think um
projects like ours where there's they're they're
on the path to progressive decentralization you
have to kind of like earn that trust and maintain
it until the trust is completely trustless So
we try to be very transparent there. At the end
of the day, it's an expense budget. So it's what
the foundation can spend up to. We expect there
to be revenue that comes in to offset some or
all of it. And the main things are $4 million
for continuing to develop the protocol, market
it, support it. Another, I forget how much, one
point something. to sponsor the cost of connecting
cars and again that's just a way to not pass
it on to users just yet or ever but we wanted
to punt that down the road another year and not
start charging people to you know keep their
autopies plugged in and or connect to tesla and
um what else is in there some administrative
stuff there there's one about demo availability
and that's that kind of gets at making sure that
it's available and different that the demo token
is available, different tokens, formats, things
like that. There are different folks who have
to help with that to make sure that it's always
kind of liquid and accessible. So that's a budget
for that. But again, this is authorization to
spend up to that amount. It's not a guarantee
that we'll even spend that amount. And yeah,
I support it. I think it's a smart thing for
the project to continue to grow. I agree. And
I am voting in favor of that as well. I mean,
you all have... gained everyone's trust. I mean,
you gained my trust, right? And I'm not going
to say I'm critical of projects, but I see a
red flag. I'm going to at least ask them about
it and get answers. But like y 'all have continued
to ship, as I mentioned earlier, whether it be
updates, partnerships, you guys as a team are
constantly working. You're very active. And I
should mention, y 'all extended out token unlocks.
um for the employees and that's something i haven't
seen any other deep end project do so uh that
in itself at that point i was like man these
guys are super committed they're in this for
the long run uh and i i appreciated that i'm
sure most people in the community appreciated
that that know about it um but yeah i mean that
was freaking awesome yeah i'm surprised you even
caught that we never even really announced it
because we didn't really know it felt awkward
to be like hey big news we are not selling um
but that's uh yeah that's that's true i didn't
i didn't realize people even even kind of caught
on to that but they are extended we originally
said it was going to be over a year starting
in january this like upcoming january uh now
it's three years um so it's going to be we're
definitely in it for the long run um we have
so much to do to really get to the full ecosystem
vision that we have and um so yeah we're we're
in this for the long haul yeah there's something
i keep an eye on because because here's the deal
you know i'm a big you know put your money where
your mouth is it's one thing for a team to say
hey we're committed long term but yeah all of
our tokens unlock at the end of next year in
the midst of the whole run uh it's a whole different
it's very easy to launch a token that pumps in
a cycle and then disappears forever yes and so
any any project that like launches a token where
they can come and go and their investors can
come and go in the same cycle we talked to a
lot of investors i'm not going to name names
but like there are a bunch of funds where it's
like we have to be able to sell them this cycle
like within six months and it's like yeah that's
that's how you get a project that just goes like
this and then you know like that and you never
hear there's no more updates and yeah it just
kind of disappears and everyone loses money except
for the people who are in early and uh you know
some people like that it's the crypto casino
but that's we're not we're building a real project
here we're not trying to uh that's going to just
um you know stand the test of time and create
immense value for the world be a paradigm shifting
uh technology sort of like you know what open
ai has done for ai and other companies that's
coming to do in that space that are just like
really kind of put it on a different level that's
what we're trying to do for for blockchain not
just like come and go in in three months with
a with a funny token name yeah i appreciate it
and that's one of the things i like about deepin
and i try to find the projects that have that
mindset because A lot of these projects, I mean,
their chart, when you look in a year from now,
it's going to look the same as SparkCoin, man.
These meme coins, that's ridiculous. I don't
want to talk about that, though. Let's get to
the next DIP. DIP 10. So that's about the network
tokens. Basically making it officially multi
-chain. We already talked about that maybe some
time in the future, but that's essentially what
we talked about earlier, right? yeah there's
really there was no place in the governance where
it was like super clear like here's all the official
tokens and here's the official bridges and whatever
and i was like oh this is kind of an oversight
let's just add that it's pretty non -controversial
um i mean those tokens like exist on these chains
whether this dip passes or not this dip just
determines whether they're like official tokens
or not and um you know maybe like if they're
not official then i guess they can't participate
in governance um like your your base tokens if
this if this dip failed you would not be able
to vote with them if it passes then then you
theoretically could vote with them uh on snapshot
or something like that but yeah there's already
i mean the tokens have been bridged to iotex
and other places i'm sure there's demo tokens
in all kinds of funny places um they can be moved
around pretty easily it's uh that's the beauty
of blockchain you can wrap to anyone can permissionlessly
you know satoshi nakamoto didn't create wrapped
btc or uh Coinbase, whatever Coinbase is, CBTC.
So that's the permissionless nature of it. I
voted in favor of all of these. So I am very
much in favor of all three of these DIPs. So
for anyone watching, if you haven't voted, still
have a couple of days left until Saturday. I'm
going to try to get this posted as quickly as
possible, but make sure to get your vote in.
Again, I'm in favor of all three, but at least
now you have a better understanding of what you're
voting for. Closing thoughts on... Moving forward,
2025, goals as far as network growth, vehicles
connected, applications being built, revenue
goals. Curious as a team what you all are looking
at moving into the next year. Yeah. I mean, we
want a million cars connected. And that means
you can't connect a million cars without having
at least a million ARR. When you connect those
cars to three apps, that's, you know. 3 .5 million
ARR. You connect that to 10 apps, that's 10 million
ARR. We want to get the number of cars connected
up. We want to get the number of apps that a
car is connected to up. And the way you do that
is by helping to launch really great apps that
people love to use. There's not going to be an
increased baseline reward for people. It's not
like you earn double the reward for connecting
to Demo Mobile and Demo Mobile 2. You'll earn
your baseline reward for connecting. You'll connect
to other apps because they're valuable to you.
Like Royal will give you cash back for your carbon
offsets, or they'll help you schedule maintenance,
or they'll tell you what's wrong with your car
and help you schedule, get cheap ways to fix
it or buy new tires, whatever it is. So that'll
really be a good sign of true, true product market
fit. Everybody knows that it's pretty easy to
create a product market fit with like, people
will do things to earn token. We haven't seen
too many projects in crypto have kind of a non
-investment non -speculative product market fit
not saying there's not any i'm not trying to
disparage anything else in crypto i think there's
so many great projects out there but um it's
definitely a more elusive level to get to so
i think will be just a massive project lots of
revenue lots of adoption lots of utility lots
of product market fit in 2025. i agree i think
you have the team to do it i think you have the
path to do it uh you have the manufacturing capacity
now to to hit those milestones on the new flagship
device. And you're doing all the right things
on the demand side, making it easier for people
to build in the ecosystem and huge market you're
moving into. I'm super bullish moving into 2025
looking forward. And the fact that you guys are
so committed to the project, man. So I can't
say enough how impressed I've been with how you
guys continue to push things forward. So man,
I really appreciate the time and you coming on.
Thanks, man. Always good talking to you. For
sure. All right. Take care. Bye.