Hello, everyone, and welcome back to episode
nine of the Blockchain Bay podcast. My name is
Chris, and today I'm joined by Ariel Seidman,
the CEO and founder of HiveMapper, as well as
Brad from Deepin Connection and Joe from Network
Bits. This is one of the best conversations we
have had, and it shares a lot of insight on the
future of HiveMapper. Tell us a little bit about
yourself and your journey in the map world. All
right, let's do it. Well, good to see all you
guys on a Sunday morning or maybe Sunday afternoon
for some of you guys. uh so this is what no i've
definitely been watching your guys podcasts and
just really appreciate the thoughtfulness that
you guys put into it um and so when joe when
you asked me to join i was happy to join um yeah
so so look i've been in maps and mapping for
basically my entire professional career um so
you know Coming out of school, I basically went
to this company called Yahoo. Many of you may
know that. And it was a fun time to be at Yahoo
because we were actually very competitive with
Google. And so I was in product management focused
on search or sat within the larger search group.
Search had roughly 30, 33 % market share versus
Google at the time, which was like 35, 38. they
were definitely gaining on us but you know the
the the talent that we had in yahoo search back
in the time i'm still friends with many of those
people actually was quite phenomenal but as a
good example of like talent on its own is not
enough you need strategy you need capital right
there's all these other components that you need
obviously to win um i ultimately looked after
all of yahoo maps um and you know that's when
i had kind of a front row c to what google was
doing um and what they when they really start
to get better was when they start to collect
their own data right they were licensing data
from a whole bunch of different providers at
the time but then they started to do google street
view programs satellites um they had a bunch
of other aerial collect data collection platforms
um where they literally had like you know cessnas
or other kind of you know private jets um that
they were flying around at like about a couple
thousand feet above the ground taking super super
high resolution imagery so it was a very very
very expensive data collection program that they
had and they had multiple multiple aspects of
that but fundamentally their maps start to get
dramatically better than ours um and so the obvious
thing to do was okay we got a pony up here right
we also have to be collecting you know at the
scale that they were so we talked about it internally
as like you crawl the virtual world in other
words you crap you crawl the web and we did that
obviously for the purposes of the search engine
but now we need to crawl the physical world long
story short yahoo ceo management was not interested
in spending like 300 million dollars a year collecting
this data like they were kind of torn between
are we a media entertainment hollywood company
or are we a technology company and so you know
they had simply no appetite for that and so i
got frustrated and left um in my first company
gigwalk we had the idea was basically is like
mobile mechanical trucks uh we had about two
million people all over the world collecting
data with iphone android devices for a whole
range of companies many of them actually in the
mapping space but even beyond that you know bloomberg
financial was a customer procter gamble was a
customer world health organization and so on
um the issue with that business was fundamentally
we didn't own the data right and if you don't
own the data your economics are pretty challenged
because you just basically become a data collection
platform And you can't like take one piece of
data and then resell it many, many, many times.
And so, you know, by Silicon Valley terms, I
think that was like maybe a single, not even.
But anyways, I left and I was still very motivated
to build out what I saw at the time was like,
let's go build a map, right? Like the challenge
with crowdsource maps has historically been that,
you know, yes, they are more cost effective than
a centralized data collection platform or data
collection system like Google Maps. But fundamentally,
the quality starts to drop pretty dramatically
by doing a crowdsourced. And once you do that,
it's just not very relevant for a lot of use
cases, right? Especially the higher value use
cases. So there's always this tension between
how do you do crowdsourced, right? And Hivemap
for today is a version, obviously, of crowdsourced.
But how do you maintain very, very, very high
quality? And those two things are a little bit
at tension with each other. so there's a balancing
act there in terms of how do you actually do
that and how do you do that at global scale so
2015 uh rolls around i'd kind of taken a little
bit of time off and was okay early 2016 i was
like i was ready to go and that's when we effectively
kind of you know the modern day hive map or what
you see today is effectively that was the beginning
of it now we started with drones um we started
with drones because we thought that um it had
a dual purpose perspective right in other words
you know usually like you have aerial data collection
and then you have street level data collection
right and they're totally different and what
we discovered or what we thought with drones
was you would get the aerial perspective obviously
but because they flow they fly pretty low to
the ground you would also get um the uh the street
level perspective or most of it you don't get
100 of it and anyways drones did not work The
battery technology never really improved beyond
like, at least for commercial drones, like beyond
45 minutes, which was a huge problem in terms
of scaling this cost effectively. And then you
had all these issues with like legal, right?
You know, the city of Palo Alto would have different
rules in the city of like Mountain View, which
would have different rules than like the city
next to it. So it was just a total mess. So we
did switch to street level full on. And the thing
that I, the thing that we observed. pretty early
on was that if you look at the history of mapping
you know the first kind of revolution was satellites
that was like early 2000s the next revolution
was you know google street view right imagery
at scale street level um you know a lot of the
data that you see in google maps is derived from
the imagery from google street view right so
the names of the businesses the names of the
street signs all that kind of stuff the addresses
etc so that was obviously like pretty transformational
and that was like early you know 2006 to like
2010 and then mobile phones in other words i
android and iphone and that basically gave you
gps traces at scale right and so like traffic
was obviously pretty important that's what effectively
like ways did but The thing that was missing
was effectively like high refresh or high cadence
visual. So in other words, high fidelity, what
I refer to as the eyes on a global scale, right?
Because the problem with motion or movement or
GPS traces is that you can't really understand
what's going on, you know, on that on its own.
So for example, if Google can tell you, okay,
yeah, traffic usually flows at 40 miles an hour,
boom, it starts to slow down. And it goes 10
miles an hour. They can tell you that right from
just GPS traces. That's pretty straightforward.
But what they don't know why, like, is it a three
car crash? Is it a fender bender? You know, is
it flooding like I experienced in Dubai a couple
weeks ago? You know, is it police activity? Is
it road construction? All of those are very,
very different. Right. And you would take different
actions based upon what actually occurred. If
it's a little fender bender, you'd be like, OK,
I'm going to stay on this road. like if it's
a three -car crash with injuries you're not going
to stay there right or you're not going to like
go that on that street so the visual high fidelity
at incredibly high refreshes is kind of the next
revolution or the holy grail that you know obviously
hive mappers after that i've been after for a
long time now okay so now what we tried first
with iphone android devices iphone android devices
did not work uh there were a lot of issues one
is just the friction associated with a mounting
your phone and then every time you get in the
car you have to open up the app and hit start
recording or start mapping or something right
most normal people don't do that like you know
it'll work for a couple thousand people or whatever
but like you know if you fast forward four years
from now or five years from now and you still
want to have a great map you're not going to
get half a million people doing that. That's
just not going to happen. People are like, I'm
going to the bar, I'm going to the restaurant,
I'm meeting my friends, I'm driving the kids
to school, whatever it is. They're not going
to take that time to open up the app and hit
the thing. To me, that's a non -starter. We saw
that, by the way. When we were doing these different
iterations with our iPhone app and Android app,
we saw the churn rates were just ridiculous.
the other issues is like positional accuracy
the phones overheat all this kind of stuff right
um somebody should do this test like go drive
in phoenix arizona in the middle of the summer
with their iphone mounted you know on their on
their dash cam that thing will not last long
um okay so then we we we tried it with a third
-party dash cam actually it was a black view
for those of you who may be familiar with that
specific brand. And it definitely worked better,
right? So in other words, what happened was we
saw the contributor turn, you know, decrease
dramatically. So that was great, right? That
was obviously like really important because people
just turn on their car, the thing would start
mapping. The issue was backhauling all the data
off the device. was really really complicated
right people have taken sd card in you know out
of the thing move it they forgot it they lost
it it was just a mess right and then they would
try to like sometimes and then like the gps data
that we would get from the device um even if
it was okay from a quality perspective um it
wasn't frequent enough right so you know i forgot
the number of hertz it was but it was like way
too low um And then the positional accuracy of
those devices, that's not what they're investing
in. They don't need mapping level positional
accuracy. And so we're like, okay, crap, we got
to go build our own. So this is a story actually
most people don't know is we got a contract for
$2 million to build the first one. That one,
we never shipped it at the scale that we see
today. But we got a contract to build it. We
got a contract for $2 million to go build the
first version. And we launched that version.
So we had about 100 devices. We did it in Los
Angeles, Lagos, Nigeria, and the Philippines.
And it worked. And it worked really, really well,
actually, beyond our expectations, this first
device. And so we're like, okay, this is working.
This is pretty cool. And we were paying people
cash at the time. And then we're like, okay,
look, if we now go raise a whole bunch of money
from a venture capitalist, like $50 million,
$100 million, we're paying people cash if you
play this out far enough. okay google will just
do the same thing right they'll and then they'll
just pay people like you know rather than paying
them a cent a kilometer or whatever it was we
were paying them they'll pay them you know five
cents you know they don't care ariel when was
that when you guys uh launched that model uh
it's like 2019. okay yeah yeah um And like that
contract actually saved the company. Like we
were about to go bankrupt and then boom, we got
that contract. And then, you know, the customer
was very happy. We were obviously very happy
because we built the first hundred devices, et
cetera. And so then, I mean, it was painful.
Like it was, it did not look like in terms of
looks of the device, it looked like total crap,
Brad. But it worked, you know, that was the most
important thing. And so then I saw what Helium
was building. And I was like, that's really fascinating.
Like the business model, which economically aligns
all the participants towards building something
really valuable together was inspiring, quite
frankly. And I think there was like passion in
that community that like within our community
didn't exist. Right. And I was like, OK, that's
super interesting. Long story short is, you know,
I got introduced to Amir. Amir was very helpful.
you know they then introduced me or he introduced
me to like the multi -coin guys um who then you
know introduced me to the solana guys or actually
it was anatole who introduced me to the multi
-coin guys anyways like it all kind of came together
uh into effectively the modern day hive mapper
what you see today so that was a long intro i
apologize guys but hopefully that's i think i
think helium uh was an inspiration for a lot
of these deep end projects that are out there
today so think it served a good purpose in that
sense and i think later we'll talk about some
of the learnings from that project that are being
incorporated into projects today but i think
it'd be good for the community to understand
like a what would be your elevator pitch if you
know when someone asks you what high mapper is
uh but also you mentioned google uh obviously
is is the major player in mapping to this point
from a street level imagery standpoint so um
curious like is that the market you're going
after are you looking to merge into newer markets
like what's the total addressable market from
like a revenue standpoint uh as you see it yeah
so look from a scale perspective it's really
important you know i always talk about there's
there's three things you know customers care
about coverage so in other words like do you
have the coverage because you don't have the
coverage and it's not like you know really interesting
then like okay why are we having this conversation
right Then the coverage, though, you have to
have has to be high quality, right? So a lot
of the things that we do internally and then
obviously with customers as well is focus on
quality, quality, quality, because you could
have all the coverage and the big numbers you
have. I got 20 million road climbers, whatever
it is. If it's not high quality, it doesn't matter.
Okay. You know, the thing, though, that we differentiate
on is definitely freshness. Right. And so that's
number three. And that's the number three thing
that customers really care about is that freshness.
But it is the core kind of thing we're talking
about before. Like if you can get the kind of
freshness that we're after. Right. In other words,
you're seeing a given location three, four, five,
six times per week with eyes. In other words,
with high visual fidelity, that is that is the
big unlock that we're all after. Now let's talk
a little bit about the market that we're after,
we're going after. There's really three segments,
right? First of all, it's all navigational, right?
So it's like, how do you get people and products
from point A to point B? We're focused on basically...
APIs for businesses. So these are other businesses
that are taking our data products and integrating
them into the crux of their operations so that
they can make their operations more efficient
and so forth. And so we'll talk a little bit
about that. We're definitely competitive there
and we have customers there. The second one is
in basically autonomous vehicles. And there's
many levels of that. So there is autonomous vehicles
at the level of you know level two which is commonly
referred to as adas or advanced driver systems
um so that would be like a ford blue cruise right
in other words they can take you uh uh and drive
you on the highway obviously you're still you
know uh in the driver's seat but you're monitoring
and and and there all the time right uh all the
way up to like a level four which would be something
like a cruise or a waymo which is kind of like
commonly referred to as like a robo taxi where
there is no driver okay Maps are a critical component
of those things. And we'll talk a little bit
more about why that is in a moment. And then
obviously, like our refresh capabilities into
that are really, really valuable for those customers.
That is probably the biggest market. The third
market that we're not yet competitive in is basically
consumer navigation. Right. And so that will
take more time for us. So that would be like
going competing head to head with like a Waze
or a Google Maps on your phone. uh we we do believe
that we are differentiated there because of the
what we're talking about before which is like
google is effectively guessing you know when
they tell you there's a backup or there's traffic
they don't know fundamentally why whereas we
do uh now in order to be very competitive in
that market we do need other layers of the map
so we need like uh you know traffic and places
and all this other type of stuff that we'll have
to build out but The contributor app that you
see today and that many of you use today will
ultimately start to carry and build towards that
vision of a full -blown consumer navigation app.
Okay, so those are the three markets that we're
after. You know, the first part of it, Brad,
to ask you from a total addressable market, it's
probably like somewhere in the range of $5 to
$7 billion. The second category is probably north
of $20 billion. No one knows for sure what that
market is because it's still kind of growing.
um and then the third market is probably in the
range of like 13 to 20 billion right um so those
are kind of like what you're talking about in
terms of total size of these markets you know
if you do this at the kind of scale that we're
hoping to do it at you're touching you know billions
of people every single day and hundreds of millions
of vehicles right you're integrated into hundreds
of millions of vehicles that are navigating themselves
and you know slightly lower level autonomy like
a level two or higher levels of autonomy makes
sense so like 40 to 50 billion somewhere in that
range total yeah so that that's a little bit
about kind of the markets that we're we're going
after um you know they will take some time like
i was like being very blunt with folks here is
like this doesn't happen overnight right like
you're building out these data products and the
quality that needs to be reached in order to
be truly competitive there is is challenging
and like a lot of the investment that you see
us making in terms of that map ai trainer platform
is focused on the quality aspect right so it's
not just about the map ai and the data collection
devices in other words the dash cams it's like
there's there's a layer of quality assurance
that the map ai trainer platform provides us
with which is quite unique frankly that uh is
absolutely necessary to like being very competitive
with all those uh markets that i talked about
before sure well there is revenue coming through
the door i mean we see the token burn started
man i saw curious about that there's two million
over two million honey tokens burned it looked
like was that retroactive or is that just starting
with this week do you know it was just this week
wow okay yeah that's awesome to see man So one
of the things I'm curious is, and you elaborate
a little bit on this prior, using crypto as an
incentive, what are some of the lessons that
you learned from this endeavor? That it works.
No, but seriously, it can work too good, too
well sometimes. And so you need to be careful
about how you use it. Because, you know, like
the the the reporting capability right is a good
example of this we just want well the map ai
trainer let's start with actually map ai trainer
platform you know originally it was built to
be able to handle you know like in the very early
days like last year when we launched it i think
it was about actually this time it was like april
or march time frame when we launched it you know
it was like designed to like handle like maybe
a couple thousand reviewers map ai trainers and
i think we're up to like i don't know 20 30 000
or something like that per week um and so we've
had to effectively go and rebuild that thing
um which we're in the process of doing it because
a lot of the reputation and other mechanisms
that worked at like a thousand or two thousand
don't work at like twenty five thirty thousand
um and so you know you have to like probably
every six to nine months as you reach a new level
of scale you have to basically rebuild half of
the kind of core components of it to be able
to handle the next level of scale that makes
sense do you ever see a point where it'll be
trained well enough that you won't need to continue
having that aspects, or do you think we'll always
need people to continue training these models?
So it goes, it goes in cycles. So in other words,
like, um, speed limit signs is a good example.
Stop sign is a good example. It's very basic,
right? So you, you trade a whole bunch of, you
know, uh, data on, on stop signs. You do it by
country or whatever. They look a little bit different,
but they're, they're pretty similar across most
countries. Right. Um, and then. um you know the
models get to like the point where you know 99
of the time if not more they can identify by
themselves a stop sign and so you don't need
the map ai trainers to be like labeling data
and you know confirming stop signs you know that
frequently but you have other you know more complex
objects that do right and you have so you basically
move these map ai trainers from you know the
easy and then the easy becomes sorry to the hard
and then the hard becomes the easy and then you
find something else for them to do and so you
know as i play this out over the next five seven
years there will always be like these edge cases
that or these just challenging scenarios where
humans will be required um you know somebody
said this and i think it's correct it's not my
line but the the last five percent is you know
just as hard as the first 95 percent uh in maps
and all this type of stuff that we're working
on so that last five percent yes you absolutely
do need map ai trainers and they need to be involved
and you know our challenge or our what we're
building and designing the system to do is very
flexible right so you can like very quickly retire
you know a certain type of game focus on a specific
object and then just move them into the next
thing into the next thing so that that's one
part of their job the other part of their job
is quality assurance right So even, so let's
just take speed limit signs, right? We want to
verify that, you know, that we have positioned,
we have identified that this is a speed limit
sign and we have positioned it correctly, right?
Or a turn restriction sign that we've identified
it correctly with the right time restrictions
and it's attached to the right drive path, right?
In other words, it's like the left lane or whatever
lane it's associated to. Like, so they perform
all of that QA today. you know and that's hugely
valuable what i tell the team internally here
is like google you know hires you know a lot
of full -time people to go do this stuff you
know in india and other parts of the world and
they have like entire teams of doing this and
here you go we have this like decentralized all
these wonderful people all over the world doing
this type of stuff um and they do they do a good
job right i mean like their systems then verification
layers and all this kind of stuff but they fundamentally
they do good work And I think that goes unseen
by many of the drivers that don't fully appreciate
that. So one of the issues I'm wondering about,
and it comes from a conversation I've seen the
other day in the Discord, is the governance of
HiveMapper, how you came to the conclusion of
really like a top -down governance from the team,
HiveMapper Inc., HiveMapper Foundation, and described
in so many ways as not a DAO, not a decentralized
autonomous organization. uh what was your thought
process behind this type of governance model
i think look the whole process of decentralization
i think if you start off from day zero and you're
fully decentralized you're you're basically dead
day zero in my opinion right and what i think
what's really required is that the community
needs to start to like get really i think you
guys have been very helpful in this regard is
starting to really understand the nuances of
what it takes to build a map right understanding
the markets that we're going after why we're
going after those markets right how to balance
you know the the data collection part of the
equation from the data processing from the data
qa right it you got to be able to understand
how all of these pieces play together to ultimately
produce an amazing map for you know businesses
for cars for consumers and so you know I think
this group right here, you know, probably if
you add Josh to that, Leo to that, a couple others,
right, folks in the community have now, and I
think you said this well, Joe, is they have now
really spent the time to learn about maps and
mapping technology and how to balance this crowdsourcing,
you know, effort all over the world, where it
now makes more sense to say, okay, how do we
include those folks in the governance process?
right and i think we've already started to do
that josh has authored a couple of uh of mips
we want other folks in the community to author
additional nips and i think what we're going
to start to do is say okay look there are going
to be people who have kind of risen up through
the community and have demonstrated a level of
thoughtfulness and they're they're going to be
the ones who are going to basically perform the
gating function to say okay you know we're gonna
we're gonna we're gonna allow this myth to go
through right right and so i think that has to
happen And if you don't root it in people who
are incredibly thoughtful about the wider map
and what we're trying to build, then guess what's
going to happen? You're just going to have a
whole bunch of people show up and basically be
like, vote me all the tokens. I mean, I would.
That's exactly right. And I say a lot of this
governance process, especially in crypto, the
biggest hurdle is getting past. what is you know
much like the elections here or in any other
country in the world where you know you have
the the kitchen table issues basically it comes
down to what affects that individual and uh 95
of the time they're not engaged with the nuances
the other five percent of the time they come
in kick over the table and vote with their feet
so What I think of the HiveMapper system is you
have so many metrics that you can work with now
that is not necessarily just the token holdings
or just how much hardware someone owns, but how
much they've actually contributed. So you have,
of course, fleet owners. You have AI trainers.
You have the people who are invested in it through
hardware. hierarchy some sort of balance in that
voting system where you know you can delegate
out some of these these votes that we may see
in the future but overall i say i agree with
how it's played out so far you guys were in the
community last year right when we kind of you
know last january february when we were starting
to really just grow and scale up um A lot of
people started to come into the system and what
they very quickly realized was it was not one
token or X token per road kilometer mapped. It
was very dynamic based upon where you drove,
what region you drove in, what specific roads
in that region you drove in, and a whole bunch
of other factors. And a lot of people were very,
very adamant that the system was fundamentally
unfair. and corrupt and whatever right because
you know Brad who is mapping in Chicago is making
more than you know me who's mapping in whatever
this part of California okay and and people said
like the system is corrupt the system is unfair
you know blah blah blah blah and I'm like look
like there's just like it's not about unfair
or fair it's about utility and value to the map
right and so if it was the way where everybody
earned the exact same amount regardless of where
they're mapping do you know what people would
do i mean they would just literally drive in
circles all day long yeah and so it's like you're
not going to build a map that way so like why
is you know it's not about like is it the right
thing or the wrong thing or is it morally correct
or not like that's not the conversation the conversation
is like we're here to build the map and it has
to be designed to incentivize the coverage and
the freshness necessary in order to create the
map yeah and i have to say i mean the mips that
have gone out um i've agreed with the thought
behind all of them sometimes the execution i
mean i don't always 100 agree with all the execution
but that's you know that's you're never going
to agree with everything but also the the thing
you said is dynamic right so as opposed to really
rigid tokenomics like a helium for example these
tokenomics are dynamic in the sense that you
can make adjustments throughout time so if you
maybe over adjust something future mips can you
know can bring it back into the balance you know
and i think we're seeing some of that right so
um all in all like i i i do agree with all the
the thought process behind moving the project
forward with all these mips i think there's always
a delicate balance though right because you do
have x number of tokens that can go to the community
so you need to balance that between future contributors
and current contributors um and there might be
times where maybe there's an over adjustment
one way or the other that has to be you know
balanced over time and and we're still early
in this and i think people need to understand
like one change isn't going to make the the whole
you know the sky fall or the universe end here
like we can make future adjustments over time
um to to keep this thing rolling so But again,
I just want to stress that it is dynamic. A change
doesn't change everything forever. Additional
adjustments can be made. Yeah, a thousand percent.
I mean, the latest MIPS that I know the community
is very frustrated by was very much targeted
at what we saw happening, which was what I refer
to as active mapping. And the reason that active
mapping, and I want to talk about this a little
bit if you guys don't mind. is is problematic
is i've seen this movie before it's like the
movie does not end well right and the movie basically
looks like okay you have all these people who
are like they're going when i say active mapping
just to define what i mean by that is like you
are going out for this you are going out to drive
for the sole purpose of mapping like you have
no other reason to be on the road right and uh
look if you if you're out on the road and you're
like hey there's a bursted location you know
five minutes from me and you take a five minute
detour i'm like that's cool like that's up to
you on an individual basis to like whether or
not that's worth it you know but that's totally
fine i think that's a cool unique aspect of hive
mapper right like we have this engaged community
and we have folks who are willing to you know
take a five or ten minute detour to go you know
hit up a bursted location um but the problem
is definitely you know this active mapping in
other words people going out for the sole purposes
of mapping is if you look at mapory right they
never achieved in my view the freshness necessary
to actually build out a competitive map because
all they had was active mappers right and so
if you look at the there's data on this actually
if you look at the country of japan it was mapped
by like two or three people what happened those
two or three people like were like hey i'm tired
i got a job i'm doing something else now i can't
do it anymore and you know like it took two years
for them to refresh that map of japan right because
they had to go find these other active mappers
whatever it is to go and do that right and so
that's what ends up happening right is like you
end up with two or three people by region or
even by country and they do the vast majority
of it they do it once they get bored they get
a job and they never do it again right whereas
if we build the system towards passive mapping
then you can A, engage with a lot more people
because it's easy, right? Like, hey, I'm already
going out there. I don't give a shit. I got this
thing running. Cool. I'm mapping. It's in the
background, whatever. I don't care that much,
right? If you do that, then the city will just
organically refresh itself. Now, I 100 % agree
with folks who say, well, it's not 100 % passive
today in terms of the technology. I agree with
that. I 1000 % agree with that. I think it's
frustrating to me, right? and a lot of the work
that we're doing here on the b and some of the
other stuff in terms of moving that bi to the
edge is very focused on that uh and so you know
that is where we're headed and i know we're not
100 there today and i and i respect that and
i understand that but i want to make it very
clear to the community in terms of like the tokenomics
need to reflect where we're ultimately going
in terms of building that high refresh cadence
because that is the big unlock from a value perspective
not just having somebody map you know you know
three people mapping the entire country of japan
once and then not you know seeing it being refreshed
for a couple years for sure yeah and i think
this needs to be a passive thing i mean we saw
you have to realize though with crypto okay it's
it's very volatile so when the market goes up
there's nothing you're going to be able to do
to to stop the the active mapping thing from
happening to an extent okay now i agree for like
the long -term viability of the project it has
to be a passive thing right it shouldn't be a
a the primary source of income for someone to
be out there putting a match game in their car
wow so i think you know you have to be careful
with making adjustments based on where the crypto
market in price is without you know i don't speculate
on price here yeah because if the market drops
that can be an over adjustment very quickly yeah
i mean it is tough a hundred percent like i don't
think there's there there's no i mean we're trying
look putting aside like prices and markets and
all that kind of stuff like we're trying to basically
say is how do we create this system so that from
an incentive perspective it is very unlikely
that somebody is going to go out there and actively
map right and you know you're right brad like
it is not easy to go do but that's that is really
the core thinking that went behind this and you
know i definitely want people to know because
there's so many like incredibly thoughtful people
in the community who who happen to be active
mappers and this is not personal like we don't
it's not a personal thing against them we hope
that they continue to stay very engaged in the
community um but it is just kind of looking out
and saying okay how do we get to that level of
like incredibly high refresh passive you know
to really have a competitive amazing map data
product um and so that that that's where a lot
of the thinking and decision making that went
into that So just to pivot away from that real
quick, something I've always been curious about,
you're very outspoken on the culture of startups.
You've made quite a few posts on Twitter about
it. What type of work dynamic are you trying
to incorporate into or create at HiveMapper?
So the answer I usually give to this is like,
if you want to join... most people know the difference
between joining the navy and joining the navy
seals right if you join the navy you get a job
on a ship you know you're working like nine to
five you know maybe a couple you know times when
things get stressful a little bit longer but
fundamentally like it's more of a nine to five
type of job if you join the navy seals like you
know what you're signing up for it is not a nine
to five job right like they need you on the other
side of the world you know like right now you're
jumping in there you may not sleep for a couple
days it's very incredibly challenging it's also
very challenging obviously just to become a navy
seal right and so we are very interested at building
a navy an organization that looks and feels much
more like joining the navy seals um and understanding
what that means right like when you go into the
navy seals you're expecting to work hard you're
expecting to like do very challenging types of
missions and operations um and this is not easy
like what we're doing is fundamentally really
really really hard and so i think it's like just
unfair to people if they come into hive map or
thinking that i'm joining the navy right like
hey i'm gonna go see the world it's gonna be
cool i'm gonna go to a crypto conference you
know i'm gonna hang out and you know party a
little bit at this crypto thing like that's not
us like that's just like flat out not us like
we are gonna build and we're gonna work and we
know this isn't easy uh we're trying to do a
lot of different hard things we're trying to
build a map and all that means we're trying to
build a data data labeling platform we're trying
to build a you know we are building hardware
you know from the ground up um designing it building
it etc so there's a lot of different moving parts
and it is fundamentally challenging i think you
have to be very clear with folks who are coming
into the our organization is like this is not
easy but we like that like if it was easy we'd
go work at google and you know work three days
a week there so to kind of piggyback on that
there has been there has been some turnover in
the organization recently And I don't know if
you want to speak to that because there's a lot
of, people are speculative about what may or
may not have happened. So I want to open the
door for you to talk to that if you want to.
Well, look, at least in Silicon Valley, that's
all very natural, right? Like in other words,
there's different phases of a startup and different
phases of startup require different kinds of
people. And so this, you know, a lot of the people
who've left, you know, over the last couple of
months, like they're amazingly talented people,
right? And I have a lot of respect for them on
a personal level and professional level. But
you do need different kinds of people at different
stages of the company. And, you know, especially
at the speed and at the rate that we're growing
at, I think it would be weird if that wasn't
the case. Right. You know, once you get into
like the more stable, like, hey, we're whatever,
we're at like a couple hundred million dollars
a year in revenue. And like, you know, it's a
little bit more mature. It's a billion dollars
or three billion dollars in revenue. Like things
aren't changing that rapidly. Right. And so.
the kind of people that you hire they kind of
know what to expect and you know the organization
as a whole isn't like changing that much but
we are changing very very rapidly right i mean
the types of organizations that we're dealing
with right now are like fortune 25 companies
right it's just different than like what's required
um when we were you know nobody that's fair yes
i will say one other thing is like i think from
a from an organizational perspective you know
and this was my fault to be very clear and this
affects Jay for a lot of you worked with Jay
who Jay is, you know, who's, who's phenomenal.
But, you know, what, what I felt like was if
you have a product more, you can just, you have
to decide who is going to be the primary decision
makers in the organization when it comes to product.
My view is that, and I changed my view on this
to be clear, is that those decisions should be
very rooted in the technical engineering team.
Okay. And you want the most technical folks who
really understand the underlying technology to
have the freedom to like re -rank prioritization
in real time based upon what they're actually
building. And if you're waiting for product management
and product managers to like make those decisions,
it just slows down the organization. And so we've
kind of pivoted away from product management
and said, no, no, no, all these decisions are
going to be made. at a much lower level in the
organization by the engineers who are actually
working on the problem literally writing the
code you mentioned that the project has been
just growing like a silicon valley company they're
growing at a rapid rate and i'm curious to know
if you are where you are expected to be at this
point in terms of revenue participation i know
you introduced the new b there's just been a
surge of new people coming into this platform
over the past couple of months so would you like
to speak about that yeah i mean because we saw
hive mapper working before we had crypto and
then we saw helium um i was not surprised that
it was going to work or that it did work right
um and we had built like a lot of the underlying
technology in terms of you know geo registration
technology a bunch of like back -end important
mapping technology to actually make the map beforehand
so like i knew it was going to work because i
kind of seen this story kind of play out multiple
times um i think the ai trainer platform i knew
that was going to work but i think it surprised
me as to like i mentioned this before like how
well it worked and how quickly like we went from
i don't know a couple thousand people using it
back in you know uh the summer of last year to
like now i think we're at like 30 000. and so
we've made intentional decisions right now to
like basically slam the brakes on it right because
like otherwise it just get back like it it become
a really bad experience for all these map ai
trainers and we just don't want that to happen
so we are trying to slam the brakes on it aggressively
so that you know we can kind of rebuild so that
the map ai trainers who are coming in have a
better experience um so you know Yeah, I think
that generally speaking, we are where we want
to be. I mean, I always want to go faster, to
be honest with you. So like, I wish the bee was
like in production right now when we were shipping
like 500 of them per day. You know, so that's
what I'm very focused on right now. And it never,
it feels, I'm a very impatient person. So it
feels very slow to me, quite frankly. Yeah. But
we have to go through a lot of the pain and torture.
associated with that product um to get it to
like where it needs to be i wanted to piggyback
off of that because you talked about manufacturing
and stuff i know you guys manufacture in the
us and there's going to be two different cameras
the lte and the wi -fi plus lte uh so do you
have plans to stay in the us and do you plan
to do the same for the b and how will that impact
your ability to meet that demand okay so let's
talk about this is a good question okay so From
a hardware manufacturing perspective, first of
all, the HGC and HGCS, I don't think we're expecting
as many orders that we ultimately got. And so
those things from a design perspective, they
were not designed to be high -volume manufacturing
products. In other words, there's just fundamentally
a lot of hands -on time that's required in order
to go build those things. So you basically have
your option if you want to increase production.
you will reach a kind of a max amount, but you
just have to hire more people, right? Fundamentally.
So the B is being designed to be a high volume
manufacturing. Now, I will caveat that in a second,
but so we should be able to produce a lot more
because there's fewer overall parts and just
the way those parts actually come together is
more optimized to be done by a robot. right so
obviously a lot of thought and processes gone
into that such that we can actually do high throughput
manufacturing so the b is go is optimized to
what i would refer to as like max from a vol
you know annual volume probably like 200 000
to 250 000 right if you go about it and there
it is being automated to be clear right so every
station will have robots you know even the boxes
we're trying to say like how do you not involve
a human in terms of like folding the boxes how
is that all done automated and all that kind
of stuff right how do we like make sure that
the foam inserts like just slide in a lot easier
that can be done by a robot all that kind of
like level of detail right so literally every
little station is being automated with a robot
now if you want to go to the next level you know
let's call it a million units per year then you
actually have to build like semi -custom robots
right at that point you you take it up that level
to that kind of volume that is a different manufacturing
process that we're having right now so we're
good in terms of like what we're building right
now to like 200 000 250 000 is probably where
we can max out at but i feel pretty good about
that based on the demand that i'm seeing right
now um if we were to get to that level of like
a million units then there is actually cost benefits
associated with moving that production line outside
the united states but not at the current levels
that we're at like that is like if i look at
the cost associated with it like maybe we could
by moving it outside the united states we could
shave like 10 or 15 bucks off of it that's not
gonna like make or break it and if i have a problem
i can like jump on a flight and be there in like
three hours right versus like you know jumping
on a flight to china or somewhere else where
i'm not familiar with the language i'm not familiar
with the culture it's a much longer flight all
that kind of stuff yeah uh it's it's so hard
to balance you know because like i were you guys
i mean you had to have been a little caught off
guard in december when we had that gigantic influx
of orders everywhere right i mean i know you
all ran a promotion but that really i mean that
that did kind of hit out of nowhere in a sense
right i mean i remember talking to you in your
office in like spring of yeah three and we were
talking about how that happens especially when
there's crypto involved but yeah um Yeah. So
what did you learn from that whole situation
out of curiosity? Yeah. When crypto works, it
can work too well. But I do want to also like
just on that, because I think a lot of people
would be like, hey, why did you do the promotion
and all that kind of stuff? We made the decision
to basically retire the, you know, ultimately
retire the HTC and HTCS in January timeframe.
And that was my decision. Right. And so basically
what I saw happening was. So the idea was we're
going to launch the B. We knew we were going
to launch the B, obviously. But we were also
going to keep the HTC as another option. And
so people can disagree with me on this, but I
basically felt like, look, at that point, you're
going to have two different production lines
that are, in my view, would be subscale. And
then you're not really going to get all the cost
benefits associated with. volume purchase orders
from suppliers. You're not going to be able to
optimize and automate every single little step
because your focus and your attention and your
resources is going to be split between the HTC
and the B. And so then I ultimately made the
decision that we have to retire the B and that
we're going to have to go down that path so that
we can put all of our energy and resources and
R &D and get the volume of orders up as high
as possible. such that we can actually get better
deals with all the suppliers, right? Because
if you go to a supplier for, let's say, the GNSS
chip or the stereo depth cameras, and you say,
I want to order 25 ,000 of these, that's very
different than showing up saying, I want to order
5 ,000, right? You're just going to get a better
deal, right? If you show up with 50 ,000, you're
going to get a better deal than 25 ,000. And
that's really what drives scale and manufacturing
and all that kind of stuff that helps bring down
the cost. right to you guys and to other contributors
all over the world and so so that was the thinking
that went into this there was nothing like nefarious
like we're like hey we want to like you know
shove it to these people with the htc or whatever
like it was literally economics associated with
if we had two different production lines then
your attention and resource like you will never
get to some sort of interesting cost effective
scale with either of them i'm curious to know
as far as for the the b wi -fi and the b wi -fi
plus cellular are they fundamentally like the
same frame so you can streamline the production
the only difference is the different bands within
so they are the exact same device the only thing
is that for the wi -fi version the the literally
the place where the lte module sets will there
won't be anything there so uh it is not a it's
i forgot the exact cost of the module i think
it was like 80 bucks or 75 bucks i don't remember
don't quote me on that but that is um you know
the only difference between the two um yeah so
there is no other difference i think this is
a you know just being really transparent with
you guys um the initially the lte version what
and maybe you guys can help us on this front
But originally the LTE version was selling at
like roughly 70 -30. So 70 % of orders that were
coming in were LTE and 30 % were Wi -Fi, which
was kind of like what we expected and what we
were hoping for. Now what we're seeing is a little
bit more 50 -50. I don't think that's good. I
think we have to fix that, right? I think part
of it is like we have to be more clear with how
LTE is going to work and SIM cards and all that
kind of stuff. yeah i think we need to better
understand what the price you know what's the
cost of that data plan going to look like right
um i know you all are trying to get the the amount
of data that's uploaded down yeah help with that
right but i think people like we kind of need
to understand what the cost of that service is
going to be to make an educated decision there
so still on that subject i'm wondering uh some
of the takeaways from the initial creation of
the hdc hdcs What'd you learn and incorporate
into the new B dash cams? Yeah. So, so the HGCS
actually almost died like as a project, what
I'm going to say, not as a, as a product, but
like as a project you know, many of you were
incredibly patient and stayed with it. But you
know, we, we ran into a lot of issues and we
were unsure as like whether or not we were going
to continue. We thought we were like, okay, maybe
we'll just give everybody their money back or
whatever, but that didn't feel like the right
thing to do. And there was some technology, specifically
the depth sensors, the stereo depth cameras,
that we really wanted to see working at a meaningful
scale. So that was very important to us, that
we saw that and we saw that working at a really
high level of scale. Because what that meant
was we can move all of the Map AI processing
engine to the device if we have those stereo
depth cameras in there. Obviously, the HTC doesn't
have those. And so I think that was very important
learning that we saw that and we experienced
that at the level of scale that we needed to.
So to me, that was probably the most critical
learning between the two different devices that
we have out there. You know, the other reason,
you know, LTE as a piece of technology. We're
not inventing anything new there, right? So a
lot of people would yell at us, understandably,
being like, hey, why don't you have LTE on the
existing high mapper dash cam and the high mapper
dash cam S model? And the reason didn't have
to do anything with like, you can't put LTE on
it until you actually figure out how to move
map AI such that you don't actually have to upload
all the imagery, right? If you have to upload
all the imagery and you have to do that all through
LTE, it's not going to work. um like you will
it just simply won't work and so um you know
step one was how do we move all of the map ai
processing so that it can you know find objects
classify objects and then position objects all
on the device and you have to do that and you
have to do that reliably well um now the the
b is longer from a width perspective And that
is to accommodate what is called baseline of
the stereo depth cameras. So you want those as
wide as possible. If you've ever seen like a
Subaru EyeSight, which is like their ADAS, you
know, kind of automated driving, autonomous driving
capabilities. If you notice like they have stereo
depth cameras as well, they're quite wide from
one another. and so the reason that that's really
important or that width that we added to the
b is really important is such that um we can
see objects that are further away from the vehicle
um and so that is uh you know if every for every
object if you had to be like five meters from
the vehicle or seven meters like there are some
objects that you literally would never be able
to map because they're just like further away
from the road than five or seven meters right
Or you would just have to see the object many,
many, many, many different times, right? And
so we're like, okay, look, we're going to widen
this out. And so that was one of the other kind
of key learnings. From a GNSS perspective, you
know, a lot of people give a shit about that.
But the issue there is actually, I mean, there
is some issues in terms of the GNSS module that
it was only single band. Now the new one is L1,
L5, so dual band. But the bigger issue is actually
the antenna. The GNSS antenna that we had was,
in my view, was too small on both of the different
models. And so the GNSS antenna that we have
is actually really large. And I think it's just
positioned better in the actual device so that
it can see more of the sky. We are looking at
like PPK and RTK. It does not make sense to do
it 100 % of the time. for us there are specific
scenarios and specific locations where that it
can be valuable to us and we may employ it there
but there's some other approaches that we're
also looking at that like in a city let's say
that has and i don't want to go too deep into
this because like we're getting pretty technical
but like if you if you have a city with let's
say 500 or a thousand active b devices there's
an approach to positioning where they can all
kind of help themselves and apply gnss or gps
corrections but you you do need to get like their
certain level of scale to be able to go do that
that's probably a its own topic that goes pretty
technical but happy to do that if you guys want
to geek out on that stuff uh i'd love to but
i think we'll lose some people in the audience
i saw i saw i was like starting to lose like
i started talking about like gps I think all
of us have been involved in those types of projects,
so we have some level of understanding how that
works. It's very interesting to me, and I'm all
for doing another show where maybe we bring on
developers, some of your hardware engineers,
and really geek out. There was an episode done
on HeliumHack's happy hour. I was the one who
coordinated that, by the way. with one of my
good friends, Travis Teague, and one of your
hardware engineers. And the information you get
from this is just phenomenal. You get so much
of an in -depth understanding. And when we talk
about how this stuff works, for people who are
able to dissect it and look at it logically,
I think it puts some of the conspiracy theories
to bed. I'm sure new conspiracy theories will
start to emerge. We'll put something to bed and
then like, you know, you'll say something or
I'll say something and then boom, you know, like
some conspiracy theory we'll like. So what were
some of your initial assumptions behind the customer
map data expectations and how they differed as
the requests have come in? I mean, most of like.
the customers that we're dealing with today are
kinds of customers that i've been working with
for a long time now so i'm not like super surprised
on them um i do think that like as you get more
and more into the automotive sector which is
like you know maps for cars type of stuff um
is which i love by the way to be clear is they
really want to like open up the hood of the car
you know metaphorically like they want to open
up the hood of hive mapper and really dig in
and put their hands into the product right um
a lot of the customers especially at the higher
end right the customers who can spend you know
a lot of money with hive mapper they're they're
technically very very sophisticated right and
so if you show up and you're like here's my product
you know and you know i'm a vendor and here's
the data and you know i don't tell you how it's
created and you can't see how it's created and
all that kind of stuff i don't think that's very
exciting for them i don't think that's You're
not going to build any level of trust and comfort
with those customers if that's your sales approach.
And so what I love about HiveMapper right now,
and we're doing more of this, is like you can
dig into the map AI trainers. I mean, you as
a customer can do map AI training, right? In
other words, like you're doing the QA, you're
doing the data labeling and all that kind of
stuff as a customer. and so you start to see
how the map is made yourself right like you don't
just take our word for it when we show up in
the sales presentation mode it's like you can
go do that yourself right and we're gonna do
more of this right so there's a project that
we're working on right now called data sets what
that basically is is customers can see and everyone
can see for that matter the entire data taxonomy
right in other words you have speed limit signs
you have roads you have lanes you have uh you
know specialized situations like road constructions
or police activity or flooding how do they all
interrelate to each other right like what are
the relationships between these two different
data sets and then what are actual like real
examples that we have in them and then ultimately
giving customers and members of the community
the opportunity to add new objects right like
hey i don't know i'm just making this up but
like i want to go add commercial real estate
signs to the map right okay great like add that
into the data taxonomy start to then label data
right that is it provides a good example that
gets fed into map ai and then out the other end
starts to come commercial real estate signs that
show up on the map right and so i think that
is a big part of what we're doing from a product
perspective that aligns with what customers want
which is they want to feel like they can dig
into it right because a lot of these customers
have their own mapping operation and so if you
just show up as you know a vendor saying you
know here's my data and then you don't show them
how that data is getting created like it just
doesn't work another question i had in the terms
of untried ideas what would you say some of the
immediate successes are from the hive mapper
team things maybe weren't sure would work initially
but worked and then on the other hand what are
some that maybe had to send back to the drawing
board well i don't think we've nailed the whole
contribution through the phone yet like in other
words there is value of um people contributing
and reporting issues through their phone kind
of like ways style as well as you know the gps
data that comes from that um from the phone which
can provide valuable traffic information so you
know we've talked a little bit um in the past
about having the right type of driver um and
i think fleets is going to be a you know a big
part of that i i personally have my own fleet
i know there are quite a few fleet managers out
there now but you know what where do you see
the future as far as fleets go how critical is
that going to be for the success of the project
moving forward yeah um okay so let's define fleets
because i think there's two types of fleets i
think there are fleets that are what i would
refer to as like entrepreneurial fleets right
brad you're an entrepreneur you know chris and
joe um you guys have fleets as well right um
okay so you know so we refer to those as entrepreneurial
fleets right in other words you buy you know
50 70 100 dash cams whatever it is and then you
go and identify the right drivers and you find
those drivers and then you split tokens with
them and so forth right it's been obviously like
massively important and valuable to the growth
of the network um and we want to continue to
support that There's another type of fleet, which
is commercial fleets, right? So these are people
who have existing vehicles, right? So, hey, I
have a pest control business and I have 75 different
trucks that are on the road every single day
doing whatever, 7, 8, 10 stops per day or something
like that, right? We also want to support them.
They have slightly different needs. They're not
primarily interested in the honey token. The
honey token to them is like icing on the cake.
They are interested in a lot of the safety features,
which I'll talk about in a second, and kind of
monitoring features that the dash cam provides
them. They are interesting from the perspective
of not every single type of fleet, but there
are certain kinds of fleets. Like long haul truckers
from a fleet perspective, commercial fleet perspective,
isn't super interesting. You know, going from
like, I don't know, Chicago to San Francisco,
whatever, through Highway 80. Like we don't need
that like that often. um but the the more interesting
ones are like the local delivery ones right that's
really valuable and so we are you know what you
saw announced this past week and what we're definitely
working towards is like how do we add some of
those safety features and monitoring features
that are really important and relevant to those
types of fleets now we tried this with the highmapper
dashcam and the highmapper dashcam s and it didn't
work the reason it didn't work was because there
was no lte and so the driver had to like go do
all this additional shit sorry i can't curse
on your channel sorry about that uh so had to
do all this additional stuff uh to you know move
all the data and that was like a non -starter
for basically all of them and so now with the
b it having lt option um it we can support those
commercial fleets um and so we're yeah we're
working on doing that um you know the thing that
they really care about is the ability to detect
you know accidents aggressive driving behaviors
by their drivers um driving outside of the allotted
time with their vehicle right some of them say
okay yeah you can take your vehicle home but
you can't drive it on the weekends right as like
your primary vehicle like it's it's really a
work vehicle so there's all these different kinds
of things that they really care about um and
so we're yeah we're going to add a lot of those
capabilities and features so that we can go after
that market we to be clear like we are not going
after you know fleets like a fedex like they
have i don't know 50 000 70 000 vehicles you
know their their requirements and feature list
is like you know 10 pages long so that that's
not really what we're focused on we're focused
on you know people who have maybe 50 vehicles
or 200 or 300 that's kind of more of the sweet
spot that we're going to be focused on I think
that makes a lot of sense. I mean, also, if the
features become the primary purpose for them
interacting with the project, it takes away some
of the volatility of the crypto aspect of it.
Right. And I think that gives you more stability
for sure. I think that's the right way to look
at it. And then, yeah, with the B, they won't
have to do all that other shit. I mean, some
of them even say to us, like, I don't even care
about the honey tokens. Like, they literally
do not care at all. you know, I think some of
them are skeptical of it or just, you know, don't
want to deal with that hassle. And so, yes, like
to them, it's about the capabilities, number
one. And then what we provide from, we have a
big cost advantage, right? So if you go to like
somebody like a Samsara, you know, you're signing
up for a minimum three -year contract, right?
And so per vehicle, you're probably paying $40
to $80 per month for three years. Like with HiveMapper,
what we tell them is like, look, there's no contract,
right? You buy the device, here's the capabilities
that you get. That's very appealing, especially
to the smaller, you know, fleet operators. For
sure. And I know personally, because I'm working
with a lot of fleets, right? And business owners
from my last job that they pay a fair amount
of money for these fleet management tools. So
if you can find a way to easily subsidize the
data they're collecting to cover some of the
cost of that, you know, whether it be the LTE
plan or whatever, to replace that cost, I think
there's a huge, huge market there to tap into.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, yeah, obviously
they will have to pay for the LTE. So that's
like the really ongoing cost. But what we've
heard from them so far is like, look, I just
like the fact that I'm not locked in. Right.
And so for three years or five years, so like,
hey, if I stop using it, like. I don't have to
continue to pay you guys or whatever. So that
I think is kind of from a cost perspective, really
appealing to them. So it will definitely become
a big part of the network. It will take some
time, right? I mean, you guys know this, you
guys work on, some of you guys work on the B2B
sales side. It doesn't just happen like that.
So what are some of your goals for the global
coverage? say a year from now, two years from
now, and you say it's not something you can complete
in six to nine months, what's a realistic timeframe
you're looking at for a complete yet ongoing
refreshed map? Look, I think we're at like 20
% of the global road network that we've done
so far, which is great, which is amazing. I think
by the end of this year, I don't know, we'll
probably be at something like 35. um maybe 40
percent of the global road network obviously
it's harder and harder right uh to find new roads
as many of you guys know um but the thing that
i'm actually more focused on is like take a region
like la right it's about i don't know the entire
region of la the metro area is like roughly a
hundred thousand road kilometers right so what
i'm really focused on is saying is like how do
we get enough drivers in la so that we can be
refreshing you know the the major arteries of
that of that of la there's a lot of them to be
clear you know three four five six seven times
a week right that's kind of like the next challenge
for us when people say like oh hive mapper is
getting saturated there's too many drivers i
mean i look at like some of these regions even
like in la and just like that's not the case
at all um and so that incredibly high refresh
rate you know region by region is the thing that
i'm much more fixated on because kind of going
back to the beginning of like what are the markets
and use cases that we're after like that's really
when you start to get really really interesting
i mean the the data products that you can provide
when you're refreshing a region like la you know
five six seven eight times a week is fundamentally
different than if you do it you know once every
two months or every three months so just totally
different product totally different ball game
so at some point the what i want to do with the
explorer is like kind of change it so that it
reflects more of that than it does like total
coverage total coverage is nice as well i think
it's interesting so people understand just like
how big the world is uh and how much work that
we have ahead of us but i think that refresh
i think is actually the more interesting aspect
for sure and and i'm actually working on a video
for mip14 i think there's a lot of misconception
around how progress is calculated and the factors
going into that um they see 100 think that oh
it's oversaturated it's being mapped 100 every
you know every single day whatever um so i think
it's important to kind of break down that calculation
to understand what goes into that percentage
to kind of put it in perspective, like, no, this
is not being overmapped yet. I mean, we're making
major progress, but there's a long way to go
for future contributors as well. Yeah, it's a
subject I've brought up a couple times in the
past, just progress. I like the idea overall.
I think, you know, I alluded to or compare it
to, you know, we're all taxed as a nation except
certain large metropolitan areas. typically take
you know more than their fair share of what's
what they distribute into the system they get
they get out more than their fair share most
of the time whereas that is just an overall governance
problem but this looks to solve it by making
that and taking into account how much work is
done in any given area through that the weights
and the multipliers but when you Put in front
of someone the word progress. It just says, OK,
that these locations that are maxed out, there's
really no. You know, there's more of incentive
to keep mapping in that specific area. This is
their thought process, more incentive to map
in an area that's already maxed out and then
get even more rewards. Why would anyone want
to map? the smaller locations or those that don't
have that progress and it's totally inverse of
the what's trying to be accomplished so just
that word by itself progress i think could be
done away with for something else yeah no i think
that's a good point joe um i had thought about
that specific word and some of the complications
with it i think that's a fair it's a really good
point i'm curious to know you mentioned in some
amas that you would working on some proof of
concepts with notable companies or ones the community
will recognize i think you've said it on twitter
as well um are you closing in on any large contracts
with these people um some of those are closed
right some of those ones that we started last
year that they've closed and now they're kind
of moving to like a you know quarterly uh and
now annual spend with some of those customers
for sure um I mean, for some of the customers
that we've now been working with for a while,
what we're trying to do is like move them from
like, okay, like I put down like whatever, 20,
30, 50 ,000 bucks for like a proof of concept
to, okay, now I'm spending, you know, half a
million dollars a year, a million dollars a year.
There's like an annual recurring, you know, contract
contract, contractual element to that. So that's
a lot of the work that's happening right now
from some of the, from some of the top tier customers
for sure. you know my sense in terms of like
announcing this kind of stuff is is i'm not like
a big fan of it in terms of like announcing the
name specifically um because like i don't know
like why tell our competitors like who we're
working with kind of thing i mean maybe we'll
do it like in a couple years when there's like
a lot more customers and like we're a lot more
mature and all that kind of stuff but like for
right now i just kind of view it as like a little
bit of a distraction um and then it kind of just
opens us up in terms of you know telling our
customers who sorry our competitors who we're
working with um so there's still you know the
the big thing that we're seeing right now is
that we're seeing customers come in the door
and then they're very like the conversion rate
to a data eval process is very very high um which
is great right uh but then the data eval process
it's not uh and i know brad you're in sales so
you can appreciate this um it needs to get like
templatized right so you can just like turn through
them move through them very very predictably
and rapidly um and so that's a lot of the effort
right now is like taking those data evals and
you know creating a template around how they
work how long they go for what actually occurs
you know so that they don't kind of just drag
on for you know a couple months for sure and
as you guys continue to evolve and have more
products to offer you can probably grow your
revenue streams with some of these existing customers
as well and it'll make it easier to get in with
some of their competitors i would think yeah
so that is a that is a really really good point
that's an excellent point like if you look right
now like i would argue we you know the data products
that we have right now speak to a relatively
small percentage of the overall market what we
hear time and time again i think this was a question
you guys had is they want like one level up right
in terms of data products and stuff like that
and so that's a lot of the effort that we're
doing right now is like you know addition to
the b which is really high priority it's you
know uh improving the map ai processing engine
to start building data products like one level
up um so that the customers you know there are
definitely customers that want to go like you
know super super granular like i want like x
speed limit sign or i want this or that right
that layer of the map there's other customers
they want like a higher level um and so that
there's a lot of work to be able to offer that
but that is definitely what we that that you
know Brad, to your point, not only helps with
our existing customers in terms of adopting new
products, but there's a set of customers right
now that we obviously know them, we talk to them,
et cetera, but they're not technically sophisticated
enough to be able to consume all of the types
of products that we have right now. Do you have
any specific goals for revenue or customers in
2024 looking into 2025? Yeah, I definitely have
goals. I'm not going to share them in terms of
on the revenue side. I think the more important
thing from a customer perspective is that we,
kind of like what I was referring to before,
is like we build out a system where we can move
customers from one phase to the other. And we
can do that, you know, nine times out of 10,
it's going to work. Like that process, that engine,
that sales and marketing motion is going to work.
like to me i think that's the bigger you know
more so than a specific revenue number i want
to like see that thing working and working very
consistently um throughout the the entire organization
because then that tells me is like okay i can
add more sales people right i can add more marketing
people if i see that core engine the system working
if you can bring in customers today which we've
shown we can but then like the process is disjointed
Right. And like the tooling that we don't that
we that we are lacking in terms of helping customers,
you know, go through that data eval is not very
mature. Then all of those data evals are going
to take a lot longer. Right. All that type of
stuff that I was telling you before. So that's
the thing that we're that we're focused on this
year is like, how do we, you know, create that
sales and marketing motion that just works and
works, you know, 90 percent of the time. Awesome.
I love it, man. I think because I know you're
focused on the hardware side and the data collection
side, which is super important, but equally as
important as the revenue. I think a lot of people
in the community, especially in these deep end
projects, lose sight of the revenue aspect of
it because, I mean, frankly, if there's not revenue
and not a product to be sold, then none of the
collection of data matters at all, right? So
you need both ends of it. you know i i try in
my videos i know we all do to try to like you
know stress that point because um deep in so
far has been really good at showing you can get
a lot of participation the next step that needs
to happen is really the revenue side i love that
the token burn is going to have visibility into
the revenue coming into the project as well so
um i think you know you all are definitely focused
on the right things i appreciate it i appreciate
it yeah have you seen any interest in the scout
product along with the bursts from your your
customers so far yeah so so scout scout uh it's
funny actually like commercial real estate and
real estate agents are using that thing a lot
it's pretty cool actually like and they use it
totally self -service right they're not they're
not going to spend a lot you know to be able
to like you know warrant us putting like a salesperson
on it but they use it self -service and it's
kind of cool like there's actually somebody in
texas who like literally like every week they
just like hit the buy button hit the buy button
um and so uh and i don't even know who they are
um so no it's really cool to see like the scout
product work and the other way we use it is in
those data evals with customers right so we would
you know for like higher end customers who can
spend a lot with us They want to see, okay, what's
the quality of data? Okay, what's the quality
of coverage? What's the quality of freshness?
And so the way that we actually show that to
them is through using the Scout interface, right?
So before they go to the API side, which takes
obviously a little bit more time from an implementation
perspective, we use the Scout and we use it quite
aggressively. So what we'll do there just to
give people a little bit more color into that
is like, we'll say, okay, like give us 50 locations
or give us a thousand locations or give us whatever
75 locations. I mean, we try to cap it at some
reasonable number and then we say, okay, like
how many times a week do you want to see this
location? Right. Boom. Right. Okay. What map
features do you want to see at these given locations?
Do you want to be, you know, term restriction
signs? You want to see speed limit signs. You
want to see the number of traffic lights that
we've detected, all that kind of stuff. so that's
kind of like the other big thing that we're going
to be working on is like surfacing some of that
stuff up through scout yeah it certainly is something
that i'm interested in demoing and doing a couple
youtube videos on i think getting that out to
like there's people in the community that say
here's a project i'm really interested in i'm
participating i'm a host i'm contributing i have
a fleet but like maybe i could sell this as a
business on the side but how would i go about
doing that and that's something i'm interested
in exploring as you know a community content
contributor just giving people the tools to uh
bring that to you know maybe local municipalities
any sort of development or uh potential customers
for them to you know they make their uh side
hustle doing participating these kinds of projects
as we've seen from some of these other projects
like helium there was always someone building
iot devices for business solutions i think that's
a path to explore yeah yeah no that that definitely
should happen and it will happen uh you know
we're also seeing like we're not primarily focused
on this market but it's cool right that it's
like happening just kind of organically there's
a gaming company that wants to kind of create
these like virtual real worlds and so they're
trying to use you know high mapper for that kind
of stuff so it's kind of cool to see Yeah, once
you build the tools, and we're obviously, like
we've talked about, very focused on navigation,
like how do you move products and people from
point A to point B? But just inevitably, like
the tools that you create will also be useful
for other, you know, use cases and other verticals,
which is awesome, right? And so I think like
municipalities being one of them, games being
another. So there's a whole bunch of other kind
of verticals beyond just navigation that our
tools will definitely be used for at some point.
I'm curious to know, are there any other projects
in the crypto space that you're looking for,
for collaborations or partnerships? I know with
you guys being on the Solana blockchain, it really
opens up the door because there's a lot of other
Deepin projects on Solana. You could have potential
integration. I know Helium Mobile is on Solana.
But if that's not, I mean, I don't want to limit
it just to Solana because there's other great
projects on Polygon. Are you looking at any companies
or any projects like that? What's Polygon? Never
heard of it. I'm joking. I'm joking. All of a
sudden, I'm going to become religious about L1
blockchains. I can't go there. Yes, there are.
Let's see. Helium Mobile is obviously interesting
to us for the B. We're trying to figure out if
we can make it work. um and so i think there's
still some challenges there uh both our side
as well as their side so we're working towards
it hopefully we can make it work but it ultimately
has to make sense right in terms of in terms
of business in terms of product on their end
and our end etc um we're we're looking to make
a hire actually right now for basically like
all this stuff right like on the on the b for
certification with all the different carriers
etc because that is a process So hopefully we'll
be able to share more news on this. I know a
lot of people are eager to hear about the LT
and the cellular and all that kind of stuff.
And I know, Joe, you've been really helpful in
terms of starting to put together some content
on that. There's another project that we're working
towards, not ready to make an announcement yet,
but we're working towards kind of like a hackathon
where, how do I say this? There are some parts
of HiveMapper that they can use, and there are
some parts of this other project that they want
HiveMapper for. And so there's this hackathon
that we're working towards kind of doing at a
big conference, an AI -focused conference that's
coming up. And so I think that's going to be
exciting. So stay tuned for that one. Love it.
Thanks. Great. You know, you did talk a little
bit about Layer 1. Is there anything you want
to elaborate on there, Solana? Hivemapper is
going to become a layer one. I'm joking. I'm
joking. No. Everyone's trying to become a layer
one or a layer two. I just think it's kind of
funny and interesting. The number of times that
I get pitched on infrastructure type of stuff
and crypto is really high. Somebody trying to
sell us their stuff. And I'm like, that is not
the issue. We are not gated because of lack of
crypto infrastructure. And I think they're very
disappointed to hear that, but it's just the
truth, right? It's like, okay, well, what is
actually gating our growth? That's not it. But
no, I think, look, Solana's definitely had their
challenges over the last three or four weeks,
but those guys are professionals and they'll
figure it out. I can't wait to see all the speculation
and conspiracy theories about you becoming a
layer one now. I know, I know, I know. I know,
I should have said that. I'm sure someone will
clip it. Yeah, someone will clip it. And I was
like, oh, crap. Well, Ariel, thank you for being
here it's been a tremendous interview we enjoy
all the insight any last words from anyone well
i i really appreciate what you guys are doing
right i think like educating folks who are coming
into the community um who are potentially considering
coming into the community as well as those that
are in the community i think that you guys have
done just a tremendous job you know educating
folks and keeping people level -headed right
in terms of you know these are If your expectations
are over here, check those at the door because
kind of here's what's going on. And yeah, I think
that over the long term, if we keep that kind
of culture, that type of mentality, I think that'll
be really healthy for the overall ecosystem that
we're building here. I really appreciate those
words. It means a lot to us, but we enjoy doing
it. It's been a lot of fun for the most part.
it has been fun i'm expanding my fleet i'm up
like 80 now i'm closing in on 100 here pretty
soon so it's been uh making some progress there
but uh yeah man i think we're i think things
are moving in the right direction revenue is
coming through the door participation is increasing
there's gonna be some bumps in the road uh i've
worked in tech startups and like like if you
have to be able to roll with the punches a little
bit um you know people coming into this they
think it's going to be like you know apple that's
solidified that that's not the case like there's
going to be some some ups and downs but i think
overall man we've seen some really good progress
but i appreciate the feedback by the way yeah
no definitely i think like you know hopefully
every community has folks like you guys around
it kind of helping educate the folks you know
root them in the reality of like you said like
you know there's the ups and the downs associated
with these projects and i think people have to
go in that with eyes wide open right it's like
you're you're a builder right and you're you're
participating and you're helping build this thing
um and if if that if that excites you you know
then that's awesome right if that doesn't excite
you then maybe this project isn't for you uh
and i don't know like go do a meme coin or something
like that right it's not very like at the end
of the day it's not very satisfying right like
a meme coin if you make a couple bucks off of
a meme coin like i don't think it added anything
to the world it did it didn't add anything to
the world quite frankly um and but i think what
we're building here you know i think we can look
back on 10 years from now 15 years from now and
be like holy crap we built a new fundamental
map that is used by billions of people all over
this world and we were the early builders of
that i think that that's I think that's very
satisfying on a professional level and a personal
level. Agreed. Except I think dog with hat is
going to save the world, obviously. There you
go. Ladies and gentlemen in the audience, appreciate
you being here and sticking with us as always.
Every other Sunday here on Brad's channel, Deep
in Connection. Brad, Chris, thank you for contributing
as always, even though it's Brad's show. and
ariel thank you for being here we've really enjoyed
it thank you guys thank you thank you