WEBVTT

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Hello, everyone, and welcome back to episode

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nine of the Blockchain Bay podcast. My name is

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Chris, and today I'm joined by Ariel Seidman,

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the CEO and founder of HiveMapper, as well as

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Brad from Deepin Connection and Joe from Network

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Bits. This is one of the best conversations we

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have had, and it shares a lot of insight on the

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future of HiveMapper. Tell us a little bit about

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yourself and your journey in the map world. All

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right, let's do it. Well, good to see all you

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guys on a Sunday morning or maybe Sunday afternoon

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for some of you guys. uh so this is what no i've

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definitely been watching your guys podcasts and

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just really appreciate the thoughtfulness that

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you guys put into it um and so when joe when

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you asked me to join i was happy to join um yeah

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so so look i've been in maps and mapping for

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basically my entire professional career um so

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you know Coming out of school, I basically went

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to this company called Yahoo. Many of you may

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know that. And it was a fun time to be at Yahoo

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because we were actually very competitive with

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Google. And so I was in product management focused

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on search or sat within the larger search group.

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Search had roughly 30, 33 % market share versus

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Google at the time, which was like 35, 38. they

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were definitely gaining on us but you know the

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the the talent that we had in yahoo search back

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in the time i'm still friends with many of those

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people actually was quite phenomenal but as a

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good example of like talent on its own is not

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enough you need strategy you need capital right

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there's all these other components that you need

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obviously to win um i ultimately looked after

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all of yahoo maps um and you know that's when

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i had kind of a front row c to what google was

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doing um and what they when they really start

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to get better was when they start to collect

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their own data right they were licensing data

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from a whole bunch of different providers at

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the time but then they started to do google street

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view programs satellites um they had a bunch

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of other aerial collect data collection platforms

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um where they literally had like you know cessnas

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or other kind of you know private jets um that

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they were flying around at like about a couple

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thousand feet above the ground taking super super

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high resolution imagery so it was a very very

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very expensive data collection program that they

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had and they had multiple multiple aspects of

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that but fundamentally their maps start to get

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dramatically better than ours um and so the obvious

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thing to do was okay we got a pony up here right

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we also have to be collecting you know at the

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scale that they were so we talked about it internally

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as like you crawl the virtual world in other

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words you crap you crawl the web and we did that

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obviously for the purposes of the search engine

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but now we need to crawl the physical world long

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story short yahoo ceo management was not interested

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in spending like 300 million dollars a year collecting

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this data like they were kind of torn between

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are we a media entertainment hollywood company

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or are we a technology company and so you know

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they had simply no appetite for that and so i

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got frustrated and left um in my first company

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gigwalk we had the idea was basically is like

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mobile mechanical trucks uh we had about two

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million people all over the world collecting

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data with iphone android devices for a whole

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range of companies many of them actually in the

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mapping space but even beyond that you know bloomberg

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financial was a customer procter gamble was a

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customer world health organization and so on

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um the issue with that business was fundamentally

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we didn't own the data right and if you don't

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own the data your economics are pretty challenged

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because you just basically become a data collection

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platform And you can't like take one piece of

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data and then resell it many, many, many times.

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And so, you know, by Silicon Valley terms, I

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think that was like maybe a single, not even.

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But anyways, I left and I was still very motivated

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to build out what I saw at the time was like,

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let's go build a map, right? Like the challenge

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with crowdsource maps has historically been that,

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you know, yes, they are more cost effective than

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a centralized data collection platform or data

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collection system like Google Maps. But fundamentally,

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the quality starts to drop pretty dramatically

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by doing a crowdsourced. And once you do that,

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it's just not very relevant for a lot of use

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cases, right? Especially the higher value use

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cases. So there's always this tension between

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how do you do crowdsourced, right? And Hivemap

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for today is a version, obviously, of crowdsourced.

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But how do you maintain very, very, very high

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quality? And those two things are a little bit

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at tension with each other. so there's a balancing

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act there in terms of how do you actually do

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that and how do you do that at global scale so

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2015 uh rolls around i'd kind of taken a little

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bit of time off and was okay early 2016 i was

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like i was ready to go and that's when we effectively

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kind of you know the modern day hive map or what

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you see today is effectively that was the beginning

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of it now we started with drones um we started

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with drones because we thought that um it had

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a dual purpose perspective right in other words

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you know usually like you have aerial data collection

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and then you have street level data collection

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right and they're totally different and what

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we discovered or what we thought with drones

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was you would get the aerial perspective obviously

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but because they flow they fly pretty low to

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the ground you would also get um the uh the street

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level perspective or most of it you don't get

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100 of it and anyways drones did not work The

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battery technology never really improved beyond

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like, at least for commercial drones, like beyond

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45 minutes, which was a huge problem in terms

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of scaling this cost effectively. And then you

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had all these issues with like legal, right?

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You know, the city of Palo Alto would have different

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rules in the city of like Mountain View, which

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would have different rules than like the city

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next to it. So it was just a total mess. So we

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did switch to street level full on. And the thing

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that I, the thing that we observed. pretty early

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on was that if you look at the history of mapping

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you know the first kind of revolution was satellites

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that was like early 2000s the next revolution

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was you know google street view right imagery

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at scale street level um you know a lot of the

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data that you see in google maps is derived from

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the imagery from google street view right so

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the names of the businesses the names of the

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street signs all that kind of stuff the addresses

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etc so that was obviously like pretty transformational

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and that was like early you know 2006 to like

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2010 and then mobile phones in other words i

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android and iphone and that basically gave you

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gps traces at scale right and so like traffic

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was obviously pretty important that's what effectively

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like ways did but The thing that was missing

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was effectively like high refresh or high cadence

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visual. So in other words, high fidelity, what

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I refer to as the eyes on a global scale, right?

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Because the problem with motion or movement or

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GPS traces is that you can't really understand

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what's going on, you know, on that on its own.

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So for example, if Google can tell you, okay,

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yeah, traffic usually flows at 40 miles an hour,

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boom, it starts to slow down. And it goes 10

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miles an hour. They can tell you that right from

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just GPS traces. That's pretty straightforward.

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But what they don't know why, like, is it a three

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car crash? Is it a fender bender? You know, is

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it flooding like I experienced in Dubai a couple

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weeks ago? You know, is it police activity? Is

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it road construction? All of those are very,

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very different. Right. And you would take different

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actions based upon what actually occurred. If

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it's a little fender bender, you'd be like, OK,

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I'm going to stay on this road. like if it's

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a three -car crash with injuries you're not going

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to stay there right or you're not going to like

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go that on that street so the visual high fidelity

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at incredibly high refreshes is kind of the next

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revolution or the holy grail that you know obviously

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hive mappers after that i've been after for a

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long time now okay so now what we tried first

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with iphone android devices iphone android devices

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did not work uh there were a lot of issues one

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is just the friction associated with a mounting

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your phone and then every time you get in the

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car you have to open up the app and hit start

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recording or start mapping or something right

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most normal people don't do that like you know

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it'll work for a couple thousand people or whatever

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but like you know if you fast forward four years

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from now or five years from now and you still

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want to have a great map you're not going to

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get half a million people doing that. That's

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just not going to happen. People are like, I'm

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going to the bar, I'm going to the restaurant,

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I'm meeting my friends, I'm driving the kids

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to school, whatever it is. They're not going

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to take that time to open up the app and hit

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the thing. To me, that's a non -starter. We saw

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that, by the way. When we were doing these different

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iterations with our iPhone app and Android app,

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we saw the churn rates were just ridiculous.

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the other issues is like positional accuracy

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the phones overheat all this kind of stuff right

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um somebody should do this test like go drive

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in phoenix arizona in the middle of the summer

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with their iphone mounted you know on their on

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their dash cam that thing will not last long

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um okay so then we we we tried it with a third

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-party dash cam actually it was a black view

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for those of you who may be familiar with that

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specific brand. And it definitely worked better,

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right? So in other words, what happened was we

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saw the contributor turn, you know, decrease

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dramatically. So that was great, right? That

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was obviously like really important because people

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just turn on their car, the thing would start

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mapping. The issue was backhauling all the data

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off the device. was really really complicated

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right people have taken sd card in you know out

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of the thing move it they forgot it they lost

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it it was just a mess right and then they would

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try to like sometimes and then like the gps data

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that we would get from the device um even if

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it was okay from a quality perspective um it

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wasn't frequent enough right so you know i forgot

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the number of hertz it was but it was like way

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too low um And then the positional accuracy of

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those devices, that's not what they're investing

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in. They don't need mapping level positional

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accuracy. And so we're like, okay, crap, we got

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to go build our own. So this is a story actually

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most people don't know is we got a contract for

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$2 million to build the first one. That one,

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we never shipped it at the scale that we see

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today. But we got a contract to build it. We

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got a contract for $2 million to go build the

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first version. And we launched that version.

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So we had about 100 devices. We did it in Los

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Angeles, Lagos, Nigeria, and the Philippines.

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And it worked. And it worked really, really well,

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actually, beyond our expectations, this first

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device. And so we're like, okay, this is working.

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This is pretty cool. And we were paying people

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cash at the time. And then we're like, okay,

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look, if we now go raise a whole bunch of money

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from a venture capitalist, like $50 million,

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$100 million, we're paying people cash if you

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play this out far enough. okay google will just

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do the same thing right they'll and then they'll

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just pay people like you know rather than paying

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them a cent a kilometer or whatever it was we

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were paying them they'll pay them you know five

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cents you know they don't care ariel when was

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that when you guys uh launched that model uh

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it's like 2019. okay yeah yeah um And like that

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contract actually saved the company. Like we

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were about to go bankrupt and then boom, we got

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that contract. And then, you know, the customer

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was very happy. We were obviously very happy

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because we built the first hundred devices, et

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cetera. And so then, I mean, it was painful.

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Like it was, it did not look like in terms of

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looks of the device, it looked like total crap,

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Brad. But it worked, you know, that was the most

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important thing. And so then I saw what Helium

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was building. And I was like, that's really fascinating.

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Like the business model, which economically aligns

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all the participants towards building something

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really valuable together was inspiring, quite

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frankly. And I think there was like passion in

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that community that like within our community

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didn't exist. Right. And I was like, OK, that's

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super interesting. Long story short is, you know,

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I got introduced to Amir. Amir was very helpful.

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you know they then introduced me or he introduced

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me to like the multi -coin guys um who then you

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know introduced me to the solana guys or actually

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it was anatole who introduced me to the multi

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-coin guys anyways like it all kind of came together

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uh into effectively the modern day hive mapper

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what you see today so that was a long intro i

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apologize guys but hopefully that's i think i

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think helium uh was an inspiration for a lot

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of these deep end projects that are out there

00:12:56.620 --> 00:12:59.200
today so think it served a good purpose in that

00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:01.399
sense and i think later we'll talk about some

00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:03.200
of the learnings from that project that are being

00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:05.480
incorporated into projects today but i think

00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:06.759
it'd be good for the community to understand

00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:10.159
like a what would be your elevator pitch if you

00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:11.700
know when someone asks you what high mapper is

00:13:11.700 --> 00:13:15.659
uh but also you mentioned google uh obviously

00:13:15.659 --> 00:13:18.460
is is the major player in mapping to this point

00:13:18.460 --> 00:13:21.120
from a street level imagery standpoint so um

00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:23.139
curious like is that the market you're going

00:13:23.139 --> 00:13:25.559
after are you looking to merge into newer markets

00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:27.379
like what's the total addressable market from

00:13:27.379 --> 00:13:30.700
like a revenue standpoint uh as you see it yeah

00:13:30.700 --> 00:13:35.399
so look from a scale perspective it's really

00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:37.419
important you know i always talk about there's

00:13:37.419 --> 00:13:39.139
there's three things you know customers care

00:13:39.139 --> 00:13:41.139
about coverage so in other words like do you

00:13:41.139 --> 00:13:42.299
have the coverage because you don't have the

00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:44.600
coverage and it's not like you know really interesting

00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:46.240
then like okay why are we having this conversation

00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:50.139
right Then the coverage, though, you have to

00:13:50.139 --> 00:13:53.980
have has to be high quality, right? So a lot

00:13:53.980 --> 00:13:56.340
of the things that we do internally and then

00:13:56.340 --> 00:13:58.700
obviously with customers as well is focus on

00:13:58.700 --> 00:14:01.299
quality, quality, quality, because you could

00:14:01.299 --> 00:14:02.740
have all the coverage and the big numbers you

00:14:02.740 --> 00:14:05.899
have. I got 20 million road climbers, whatever

00:14:05.899 --> 00:14:07.740
it is. If it's not high quality, it doesn't matter.

00:14:08.779 --> 00:14:13.000
Okay. You know, the thing, though, that we differentiate

00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:16.899
on is definitely freshness. Right. And so that's

00:14:16.899 --> 00:14:18.480
number three. And that's the number three thing

00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:20.779
that customers really care about is that freshness.

00:14:21.259 --> 00:14:24.120
But it is the core kind of thing we're talking

00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.820
about before. Like if you can get the kind of

00:14:26.820 --> 00:14:28.600
freshness that we're after. Right. In other words,

00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.200
you're seeing a given location three, four, five,

00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:34.720
six times per week with eyes. In other words,

00:14:34.740 --> 00:14:37.720
with high visual fidelity, that is that is the

00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:40.509
big unlock that we're all after. Now let's talk

00:14:40.509 --> 00:14:41.970
a little bit about the market that we're after,

00:14:42.149 --> 00:14:45.210
we're going after. There's really three segments,

00:14:45.370 --> 00:14:47.190
right? First of all, it's all navigational, right?

00:14:47.269 --> 00:14:49.169
So it's like, how do you get people and products

00:14:49.169 --> 00:14:52.629
from point A to point B? We're focused on basically...

00:14:53.580 --> 00:14:58.019
APIs for businesses. So these are other businesses

00:14:58.019 --> 00:15:00.679
that are taking our data products and integrating

00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:04.740
them into the crux of their operations so that

00:15:04.740 --> 00:15:06.519
they can make their operations more efficient

00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:08.320
and so forth. And so we'll talk a little bit

00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:10.019
about that. We're definitely competitive there

00:15:10.019 --> 00:15:12.659
and we have customers there. The second one is

00:15:12.659 --> 00:15:16.120
in basically autonomous vehicles. And there's

00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:19.539
many levels of that. So there is autonomous vehicles

00:15:19.539 --> 00:15:22.519
at the level of you know level two which is commonly

00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:25.139
referred to as adas or advanced driver systems

00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:28.519
um so that would be like a ford blue cruise right

00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.700
in other words they can take you uh uh and drive

00:15:31.700 --> 00:15:33.679
you on the highway obviously you're still you

00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.179
know uh in the driver's seat but you're monitoring

00:15:36.179 --> 00:15:39.720
and and and there all the time right uh all the

00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:41.899
way up to like a level four which would be something

00:15:41.899 --> 00:15:44.200
like a cruise or a waymo which is kind of like

00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.340
commonly referred to as like a robo taxi where

00:15:46.340 --> 00:15:50.490
there is no driver okay Maps are a critical component

00:15:50.490 --> 00:15:52.230
of those things. And we'll talk a little bit

00:15:52.230 --> 00:15:55.289
more about why that is in a moment. And then

00:15:55.289 --> 00:15:57.889
obviously, like our refresh capabilities into

00:15:57.889 --> 00:15:59.970
that are really, really valuable for those customers.

00:16:01.350 --> 00:16:04.830
That is probably the biggest market. The third

00:16:04.830 --> 00:16:07.570
market that we're not yet competitive in is basically

00:16:07.570 --> 00:16:10.590
consumer navigation. Right. And so that will

00:16:10.590 --> 00:16:12.210
take more time for us. So that would be like

00:16:12.210 --> 00:16:14.429
going competing head to head with like a Waze

00:16:14.429 --> 00:16:19.019
or a Google Maps on your phone. uh we we do believe

00:16:19.019 --> 00:16:21.480
that we are differentiated there because of the

00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:23.019
what we're talking about before which is like

00:16:23.019 --> 00:16:25.600
google is effectively guessing you know when

00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:27.639
they tell you there's a backup or there's traffic

00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:31.480
they don't know fundamentally why whereas we

00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:34.419
do uh now in order to be very competitive in

00:16:34.419 --> 00:16:37.299
that market we do need other layers of the map

00:16:37.299 --> 00:16:39.779
so we need like uh you know traffic and places

00:16:39.779 --> 00:16:41.799
and all this other type of stuff that we'll have

00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:45.419
to build out but The contributor app that you

00:16:45.419 --> 00:16:48.220
see today and that many of you use today will

00:16:48.220 --> 00:16:51.620
ultimately start to carry and build towards that

00:16:51.620 --> 00:16:54.940
vision of a full -blown consumer navigation app.

00:16:55.980 --> 00:16:57.960
Okay, so those are the three markets that we're

00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:01.159
after. You know, the first part of it, Brad,

00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:03.580
to ask you from a total addressable market, it's

00:17:03.580 --> 00:17:05.339
probably like somewhere in the range of $5 to

00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:08.220
$7 billion. The second category is probably north

00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:10.339
of $20 billion. No one knows for sure what that

00:17:10.339 --> 00:17:12.200
market is because it's still kind of growing.

00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:15.119
um and then the third market is probably in the

00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:19.680
range of like 13 to 20 billion right um so those

00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:21.079
are kind of like what you're talking about in

00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:23.619
terms of total size of these markets you know

00:17:23.619 --> 00:17:25.880
if you do this at the kind of scale that we're

00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:29.539
hoping to do it at you're touching you know billions

00:17:29.539 --> 00:17:32.839
of people every single day and hundreds of millions

00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:35.579
of vehicles right you're integrated into hundreds

00:17:35.579 --> 00:17:38.839
of millions of vehicles that are navigating themselves

00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:41.680
and you know slightly lower level autonomy like

00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:44.599
a level two or higher levels of autonomy makes

00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:46.819
sense so like 40 to 50 billion somewhere in that

00:17:46.819 --> 00:17:49.980
range total yeah so that that's a little bit

00:17:49.980 --> 00:17:52.319
about kind of the markets that we're we're going

00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:56.019
after um you know they will take some time like

00:17:56.019 --> 00:17:58.680
i was like being very blunt with folks here is

00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:00.779
like this doesn't happen overnight right like

00:18:00.779 --> 00:18:04.740
you're building out these data products and the

00:18:04.740 --> 00:18:07.940
quality that needs to be reached in order to

00:18:07.940 --> 00:18:10.359
be truly competitive there is is challenging

00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:12.480
and like a lot of the investment that you see

00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.779
us making in terms of that map ai trainer platform

00:18:15.779 --> 00:18:19.299
is focused on the quality aspect right so it's

00:18:19.299 --> 00:18:22.619
not just about the map ai and the data collection

00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:25.240
devices in other words the dash cams it's like

00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:27.799
there's there's a layer of quality assurance

00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:30.980
that the map ai trainer platform provides us

00:18:30.980 --> 00:18:35.599
with which is quite unique frankly that uh is

00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:39.019
absolutely necessary to like being very competitive

00:18:39.019 --> 00:18:41.759
with all those uh markets that i talked about

00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:44.500
before sure well there is revenue coming through

00:18:44.500 --> 00:18:46.299
the door i mean we see the token burn started

00:18:46.299 --> 00:18:49.220
man i saw curious about that there's two million

00:18:49.220 --> 00:18:51.740
over two million honey tokens burned it looked

00:18:51.740 --> 00:18:54.700
like was that retroactive or is that just starting

00:18:54.700 --> 00:18:57.720
with this week do you know it was just this week

00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:03.680
wow okay yeah that's awesome to see man So one

00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:06.140
of the things I'm curious is, and you elaborate

00:19:06.140 --> 00:19:10.299
a little bit on this prior, using crypto as an

00:19:10.299 --> 00:19:12.099
incentive, what are some of the lessons that

00:19:12.099 --> 00:19:16.039
you learned from this endeavor? That it works.

00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:21.380
No, but seriously, it can work too good, too

00:19:21.380 --> 00:19:24.940
well sometimes. And so you need to be careful

00:19:24.940 --> 00:19:32.819
about how you use it. Because, you know, like

00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:35.559
the the the reporting capability right is a good

00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:37.500
example of this we just want well the map ai

00:19:37.500 --> 00:19:39.339
trainer let's start with actually map ai trainer

00:19:39.339 --> 00:19:42.700
platform you know originally it was built to

00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:45.000
be able to handle you know like in the very early

00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.339
days like last year when we launched it i think

00:19:47.339 --> 00:19:49.980
it was about actually this time it was like april

00:19:49.980 --> 00:19:53.380
or march time frame when we launched it you know

00:19:53.380 --> 00:19:55.740
it was like designed to like handle like maybe

00:19:55.740 --> 00:19:59.440
a couple thousand reviewers map ai trainers and

00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:01.799
i think we're up to like i don't know 20 30 000

00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:06.259
or something like that per week um and so we've

00:20:06.259 --> 00:20:08.279
had to effectively go and rebuild that thing

00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:11.200
um which we're in the process of doing it because

00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:13.500
a lot of the reputation and other mechanisms

00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:16.180
that worked at like a thousand or two thousand

00:20:16.180 --> 00:20:19.579
don't work at like twenty five thirty thousand

00:20:19.579 --> 00:20:23.990
um and so you know you have to like probably

00:20:23.990 --> 00:20:27.029
every six to nine months as you reach a new level

00:20:27.029 --> 00:20:29.529
of scale you have to basically rebuild half of

00:20:29.529 --> 00:20:32.390
the kind of core components of it to be able

00:20:32.390 --> 00:20:35.170
to handle the next level of scale that makes

00:20:35.170 --> 00:20:37.529
sense do you ever see a point where it'll be

00:20:37.529 --> 00:20:40.269
trained well enough that you won't need to continue

00:20:40.269 --> 00:20:43.609
having that aspects, or do you think we'll always

00:20:43.609 --> 00:20:45.509
need people to continue training these models?

00:20:45.710 --> 00:20:47.930
So it goes, it goes in cycles. So in other words,

00:20:47.950 --> 00:20:50.589
like, um, speed limit signs is a good example.

00:20:50.630 --> 00:20:52.150
Stop sign is a good example. It's very basic,

00:20:52.250 --> 00:20:54.490
right? So you, you trade a whole bunch of, you

00:20:54.490 --> 00:20:57.349
know, uh, data on, on stop signs. You do it by

00:20:57.349 --> 00:20:58.990
country or whatever. They look a little bit different,

00:20:59.069 --> 00:21:00.450
but they're, they're pretty similar across most

00:21:00.450 --> 00:21:05.039
countries. Right. Um, and then. um you know the

00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.299
models get to like the point where you know 99

00:21:07.299 --> 00:21:10.480
of the time if not more they can identify by

00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:13.640
themselves a stop sign and so you don't need

00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:16.079
the map ai trainers to be like labeling data

00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:19.940
and you know confirming stop signs you know that

00:21:19.940 --> 00:21:23.420
frequently but you have other you know more complex

00:21:23.420 --> 00:21:26.700
objects that do right and you have so you basically

00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:30.400
move these map ai trainers from you know the

00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:33.609
easy and then the easy becomes sorry to the hard

00:21:33.609 --> 00:21:35.690
and then the hard becomes the easy and then you

00:21:35.690 --> 00:21:38.910
find something else for them to do and so you

00:21:38.910 --> 00:21:40.970
know as i play this out over the next five seven

00:21:40.970 --> 00:21:43.549
years there will always be like these edge cases

00:21:43.549 --> 00:21:47.250
that or these just challenging scenarios where

00:21:47.250 --> 00:21:51.109
humans will be required um you know somebody

00:21:51.109 --> 00:21:52.690
said this and i think it's correct it's not my

00:21:52.690 --> 00:21:55.730
line but the the last five percent is you know

00:21:55.730 --> 00:21:59.480
just as hard as the first 95 percent uh in maps

00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:01.000
and all this type of stuff that we're working

00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:03.779
on so that last five percent yes you absolutely

00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:06.900
do need map ai trainers and they need to be involved

00:22:06.900 --> 00:22:10.099
and you know our challenge or our what we're

00:22:10.099 --> 00:22:12.500
building and designing the system to do is very

00:22:12.500 --> 00:22:15.160
flexible right so you can like very quickly retire

00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:18.740
you know a certain type of game focus on a specific

00:22:18.740 --> 00:22:21.279
object and then just move them into the next

00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:23.539
thing into the next thing so that that's one

00:22:23.539 --> 00:22:25.440
part of their job the other part of their job

00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:29.829
is quality assurance right So even, so let's

00:22:29.829 --> 00:22:32.769
just take speed limit signs, right? We want to

00:22:32.769 --> 00:22:35.549
verify that, you know, that we have positioned,

00:22:35.630 --> 00:22:37.890
we have identified that this is a speed limit

00:22:37.890 --> 00:22:40.009
sign and we have positioned it correctly, right?

00:22:40.089 --> 00:22:42.930
Or a turn restriction sign that we've identified

00:22:42.930 --> 00:22:45.150
it correctly with the right time restrictions

00:22:45.150 --> 00:22:47.450
and it's attached to the right drive path, right?

00:22:47.549 --> 00:22:49.710
In other words, it's like the left lane or whatever

00:22:49.710 --> 00:22:53.309
lane it's associated to. Like, so they perform

00:22:53.309 --> 00:22:58.339
all of that QA today. you know and that's hugely

00:22:58.339 --> 00:23:00.339
valuable what i tell the team internally here

00:23:00.339 --> 00:23:04.400
is like google you know hires you know a lot

00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.180
of full -time people to go do this stuff you

00:23:07.180 --> 00:23:09.359
know in india and other parts of the world and

00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:11.759
they have like entire teams of doing this and

00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:13.940
here you go we have this like decentralized all

00:23:13.940 --> 00:23:15.740
these wonderful people all over the world doing

00:23:15.740 --> 00:23:18.859
this type of stuff um and they do they do a good

00:23:18.859 --> 00:23:21.400
job right i mean like their systems then verification

00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:23.220
layers and all this kind of stuff but they fundamentally

00:23:23.220 --> 00:23:26.839
they do good work And I think that goes unseen

00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:29.720
by many of the drivers that don't fully appreciate

00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:33.000
that. So one of the issues I'm wondering about,

00:23:33.099 --> 00:23:35.200
and it comes from a conversation I've seen the

00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:37.819
other day in the Discord, is the governance of

00:23:37.819 --> 00:23:40.640
HiveMapper, how you came to the conclusion of

00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:45.180
really like a top -down governance from the team,

00:23:45.339 --> 00:23:48.680
HiveMapper Inc., HiveMapper Foundation, and described

00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.380
in so many ways as not a DAO, not a decentralized

00:23:52.380 --> 00:23:56.400
autonomous organization. uh what was your thought

00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.980
process behind this type of governance model

00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:02.440
i think look the whole process of decentralization

00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:04.599
i think if you start off from day zero and you're

00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:07.099
fully decentralized you're you're basically dead

00:24:07.099 --> 00:24:10.539
day zero in my opinion right and what i think

00:24:10.539 --> 00:24:12.279
what's really required is that the community

00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:14.980
needs to start to like get really i think you

00:24:14.980 --> 00:24:17.380
guys have been very helpful in this regard is

00:24:17.380 --> 00:24:19.799
starting to really understand the nuances of

00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:22.900
what it takes to build a map right understanding

00:24:22.900 --> 00:24:24.819
the markets that we're going after why we're

00:24:24.819 --> 00:24:27.660
going after those markets right how to balance

00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:30.819
you know the the data collection part of the

00:24:30.819 --> 00:24:33.779
equation from the data processing from the data

00:24:33.779 --> 00:24:37.160
qa right it you got to be able to understand

00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:41.900
how all of these pieces play together to ultimately

00:24:41.900 --> 00:24:45.039
produce an amazing map for you know businesses

00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:50.130
for cars for consumers and so you know I think

00:24:50.130 --> 00:24:54.509
this group right here, you know, probably if

00:24:54.509 --> 00:24:57.089
you add Josh to that, Leo to that, a couple others,

00:24:57.289 --> 00:25:00.130
right, folks in the community have now, and I

00:25:00.130 --> 00:25:02.849
think you said this well, Joe, is they have now

00:25:02.849 --> 00:25:05.829
really spent the time to learn about maps and

00:25:05.829 --> 00:25:09.430
mapping technology and how to balance this crowdsourcing,

00:25:09.430 --> 00:25:12.670
you know, effort all over the world, where it

00:25:12.670 --> 00:25:16.109
now makes more sense to say, okay, how do we

00:25:16.109 --> 00:25:18.509
include those folks in the governance process?

00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:20.380
right and i think we've already started to do

00:25:20.380 --> 00:25:23.299
that josh has authored a couple of uh of mips

00:25:23.299 --> 00:25:25.140
we want other folks in the community to author

00:25:25.140 --> 00:25:28.220
additional nips and i think what we're going

00:25:28.220 --> 00:25:30.720
to start to do is say okay look there are going

00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:32.339
to be people who have kind of risen up through

00:25:32.339 --> 00:25:34.980
the community and have demonstrated a level of

00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:37.119
thoughtfulness and they're they're going to be

00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:39.160
the ones who are going to basically perform the

00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:42.480
gating function to say okay you know we're gonna

00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:44.500
we're gonna we're gonna allow this myth to go

00:25:44.500 --> 00:25:47.680
through right right and so i think that has to

00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:51.170
happen And if you don't root it in people who

00:25:51.170 --> 00:25:55.529
are incredibly thoughtful about the wider map

00:25:55.529 --> 00:25:58.369
and what we're trying to build, then guess what's

00:25:58.369 --> 00:25:59.809
going to happen? You're just going to have a

00:25:59.809 --> 00:26:01.369
whole bunch of people show up and basically be

00:26:01.369 --> 00:26:05.230
like, vote me all the tokens. I mean, I would.

00:26:05.569 --> 00:26:08.190
That's exactly right. And I say a lot of this

00:26:08.190 --> 00:26:10.509
governance process, especially in crypto, the

00:26:10.509 --> 00:26:16.690
biggest hurdle is getting past. what is you know

00:26:16.690 --> 00:26:19.609
much like the elections here or in any other

00:26:19.609 --> 00:26:22.269
country in the world where you know you have

00:26:22.269 --> 00:26:25.509
the the kitchen table issues basically it comes

00:26:25.509 --> 00:26:29.710
down to what affects that individual and uh 95

00:26:29.710 --> 00:26:32.950
of the time they're not engaged with the nuances

00:26:32.950 --> 00:26:35.710
the other five percent of the time they come

00:26:35.710 --> 00:26:37.650
in kick over the table and vote with their feet

00:26:37.650 --> 00:26:43.220
so What I think of the HiveMapper system is you

00:26:43.220 --> 00:26:45.799
have so many metrics that you can work with now

00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:49.799
that is not necessarily just the token holdings

00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:53.420
or just how much hardware someone owns, but how

00:26:53.420 --> 00:26:55.579
much they've actually contributed. So you have,

00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:58.180
of course, fleet owners. You have AI trainers.

00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:02.059
You have the people who are invested in it through

00:27:02.059 --> 00:27:11.950
hardware. hierarchy some sort of balance in that

00:27:11.950 --> 00:27:15.809
voting system where you know you can delegate

00:27:15.809 --> 00:27:19.349
out some of these these votes that we may see

00:27:19.349 --> 00:27:23.490
in the future but overall i say i agree with

00:27:23.490 --> 00:27:25.789
how it's played out so far you guys were in the

00:27:25.789 --> 00:27:27.950
community last year right when we kind of you

00:27:27.950 --> 00:27:30.809
know last january february when we were starting

00:27:30.809 --> 00:27:35.609
to really just grow and scale up um A lot of

00:27:35.609 --> 00:27:37.529
people started to come into the system and what

00:27:37.529 --> 00:27:40.869
they very quickly realized was it was not one

00:27:40.869 --> 00:27:44.349
token or X token per road kilometer mapped. It

00:27:44.349 --> 00:27:47.970
was very dynamic based upon where you drove,

00:27:48.390 --> 00:27:52.470
what region you drove in, what specific roads

00:27:52.470 --> 00:27:56.250
in that region you drove in, and a whole bunch

00:27:56.250 --> 00:27:59.430
of other factors. And a lot of people were very,

00:27:59.470 --> 00:28:01.309
very adamant that the system was fundamentally

00:28:01.309 --> 00:28:05.829
unfair. and corrupt and whatever right because

00:28:05.829 --> 00:28:10.589
you know Brad who is mapping in Chicago is making

00:28:10.589 --> 00:28:13.750
more than you know me who's mapping in whatever

00:28:13.750 --> 00:28:17.410
this part of California okay and and people said

00:28:17.410 --> 00:28:20.250
like the system is corrupt the system is unfair

00:28:20.250 --> 00:28:24.890
you know blah blah blah blah and I'm like look

00:28:24.890 --> 00:28:26.849
like there's just like it's not about unfair

00:28:26.849 --> 00:28:29.690
or fair it's about utility and value to the map

00:28:30.009 --> 00:28:33.210
right and so if it was the way where everybody

00:28:33.210 --> 00:28:35.470
earned the exact same amount regardless of where

00:28:35.470 --> 00:28:36.730
they're mapping do you know what people would

00:28:36.730 --> 00:28:38.430
do i mean they would just literally drive in

00:28:38.430 --> 00:28:41.190
circles all day long yeah and so it's like you're

00:28:41.190 --> 00:28:42.990
not going to build a map that way so like why

00:28:42.990 --> 00:28:46.089
is you know it's not about like is it the right

00:28:46.089 --> 00:28:48.529
thing or the wrong thing or is it morally correct

00:28:48.529 --> 00:28:51.009
or not like that's not the conversation the conversation

00:28:51.009 --> 00:28:53.849
is like we're here to build the map and it has

00:28:53.849 --> 00:28:57.150
to be designed to incentivize the coverage and

00:28:57.150 --> 00:28:59.509
the freshness necessary in order to create the

00:28:59.509 --> 00:29:02.769
map yeah and i have to say i mean the mips that

00:29:02.769 --> 00:29:05.569
have gone out um i've agreed with the thought

00:29:05.569 --> 00:29:08.809
behind all of them sometimes the execution i

00:29:08.809 --> 00:29:11.269
mean i don't always 100 agree with all the execution

00:29:11.269 --> 00:29:13.450
but that's you know that's you're never going

00:29:13.450 --> 00:29:15.730
to agree with everything but also the the thing

00:29:15.730 --> 00:29:18.609
you said is dynamic right so as opposed to really

00:29:18.609 --> 00:29:23.509
rigid tokenomics like a helium for example these

00:29:23.509 --> 00:29:25.930
tokenomics are dynamic in the sense that you

00:29:25.930 --> 00:29:28.829
can make adjustments throughout time so if you

00:29:28.829 --> 00:29:32.369
maybe over adjust something future mips can you

00:29:32.369 --> 00:29:34.630
know can bring it back into the balance you know

00:29:34.630 --> 00:29:37.210
and i think we're seeing some of that right so

00:29:37.210 --> 00:29:41.950
um all in all like i i i do agree with all the

00:29:41.950 --> 00:29:44.490
the thought process behind moving the project

00:29:44.490 --> 00:29:46.970
forward with all these mips i think there's always

00:29:46.970 --> 00:29:48.849
a delicate balance though right because you do

00:29:48.849 --> 00:29:51.640
have x number of tokens that can go to the community

00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:53.859
so you need to balance that between future contributors

00:29:53.859 --> 00:29:56.980
and current contributors um and there might be

00:29:56.980 --> 00:29:58.279
times where maybe there's an over adjustment

00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:01.119
one way or the other that has to be you know

00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:03.559
balanced over time and and we're still early

00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:05.200
in this and i think people need to understand

00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.480
like one change isn't going to make the the whole

00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:10.519
you know the sky fall or the universe end here

00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:13.539
like we can make future adjustments over time

00:30:13.539 --> 00:30:17.910
um to to keep this thing rolling so But again,

00:30:18.150 --> 00:30:21.630
I just want to stress that it is dynamic. A change

00:30:21.630 --> 00:30:24.630
doesn't change everything forever. Additional

00:30:24.630 --> 00:30:27.670
adjustments can be made. Yeah, a thousand percent.

00:30:28.630 --> 00:30:31.589
I mean, the latest MIPS that I know the community

00:30:31.589 --> 00:30:34.950
is very frustrated by was very much targeted

00:30:34.950 --> 00:30:37.970
at what we saw happening, which was what I refer

00:30:37.970 --> 00:30:41.250
to as active mapping. And the reason that active

00:30:41.250 --> 00:30:43.210
mapping, and I want to talk about this a little

00:30:43.210 --> 00:30:46.630
bit if you guys don't mind. is is problematic

00:30:46.630 --> 00:30:50.809
is i've seen this movie before it's like the

00:30:50.809 --> 00:30:54.329
movie does not end well right and the movie basically

00:30:54.329 --> 00:30:57.089
looks like okay you have all these people who

00:30:57.089 --> 00:30:59.210
are like they're going when i say active mapping

00:30:59.210 --> 00:31:01.589
just to define what i mean by that is like you

00:31:01.589 --> 00:31:03.730
are going out for this you are going out to drive

00:31:03.730 --> 00:31:05.710
for the sole purpose of mapping like you have

00:31:05.710 --> 00:31:10.650
no other reason to be on the road right and uh

00:31:10.650 --> 00:31:13.299
look if you if you're out on the road and you're

00:31:13.299 --> 00:31:15.480
like hey there's a bursted location you know

00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:17.440
five minutes from me and you take a five minute

00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:20.200
detour i'm like that's cool like that's up to

00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:22.119
you on an individual basis to like whether or

00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:24.779
not that's worth it you know but that's totally

00:31:24.779 --> 00:31:27.259
fine i think that's a cool unique aspect of hive

00:31:27.259 --> 00:31:29.000
mapper right like we have this engaged community

00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:30.940
and we have folks who are willing to you know

00:31:30.940 --> 00:31:33.319
take a five or ten minute detour to go you know

00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:36.279
hit up a bursted location um but the problem

00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:38.839
is definitely you know this active mapping in

00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:40.660
other words people going out for the sole purposes

00:31:40.660 --> 00:31:44.640
of mapping is if you look at mapory right they

00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:47.559
never achieved in my view the freshness necessary

00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:50.220
to actually build out a competitive map because

00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:52.779
all they had was active mappers right and so

00:31:52.779 --> 00:31:55.240
if you look at the there's data on this actually

00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:57.859
if you look at the country of japan it was mapped

00:31:57.859 --> 00:32:00.279
by like two or three people what happened those

00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:02.319
two or three people like were like hey i'm tired

00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:04.619
i got a job i'm doing something else now i can't

00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:08.160
do it anymore and you know like it took two years

00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:11.279
for them to refresh that map of japan right because

00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:13.319
they had to go find these other active mappers

00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:17.500
whatever it is to go and do that right and so

00:32:17.500 --> 00:32:19.900
that's what ends up happening right is like you

00:32:19.900 --> 00:32:22.619
end up with two or three people by region or

00:32:22.619 --> 00:32:25.519
even by country and they do the vast majority

00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:27.619
of it they do it once they get bored they get

00:32:27.619 --> 00:32:30.819
a job and they never do it again right whereas

00:32:30.819 --> 00:32:34.240
if we build the system towards passive mapping

00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:37.680
then you can A, engage with a lot more people

00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:39.839
because it's easy, right? Like, hey, I'm already

00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:41.460
going out there. I don't give a shit. I got this

00:32:41.460 --> 00:32:43.420
thing running. Cool. I'm mapping. It's in the

00:32:43.420 --> 00:32:44.960
background, whatever. I don't care that much,

00:32:44.980 --> 00:32:48.339
right? If you do that, then the city will just

00:32:48.339 --> 00:32:53.680
organically refresh itself. Now, I 100 % agree

00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:55.980
with folks who say, well, it's not 100 % passive

00:32:55.980 --> 00:32:57.759
today in terms of the technology. I agree with

00:32:57.759 --> 00:32:59.779
that. I 1000 % agree with that. I think it's

00:32:59.779 --> 00:33:02.890
frustrating to me, right? and a lot of the work

00:33:02.890 --> 00:33:04.390
that we're doing here on the b and some of the

00:33:04.390 --> 00:33:06.349
other stuff in terms of moving that bi to the

00:33:06.349 --> 00:33:12.210
edge is very focused on that uh and so you know

00:33:12.210 --> 00:33:15.109
that is where we're headed and i know we're not

00:33:15.109 --> 00:33:17.450
100 there today and i and i respect that and

00:33:17.450 --> 00:33:19.390
i understand that but i want to make it very

00:33:19.390 --> 00:33:22.349
clear to the community in terms of like the tokenomics

00:33:22.349 --> 00:33:24.210
need to reflect where we're ultimately going

00:33:24.210 --> 00:33:26.829
in terms of building that high refresh cadence

00:33:26.829 --> 00:33:29.650
because that is the big unlock from a value perspective

00:33:29.650 --> 00:33:32.730
not just having somebody map you know you know

00:33:32.730 --> 00:33:34.549
three people mapping the entire country of japan

00:33:34.549 --> 00:33:37.869
once and then not you know seeing it being refreshed

00:33:37.869 --> 00:33:41.190
for a couple years for sure yeah and i think

00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:44.130
this needs to be a passive thing i mean we saw

00:33:44.130 --> 00:33:48.630
you have to realize though with crypto okay it's

00:33:48.630 --> 00:33:51.930
it's very volatile so when the market goes up

00:33:51.930 --> 00:33:53.769
there's nothing you're going to be able to do

00:33:53.769 --> 00:33:57.190
to to stop the the active mapping thing from

00:33:57.190 --> 00:34:00.190
happening to an extent okay now i agree for like

00:34:00.190 --> 00:34:02.390
the long -term viability of the project it has

00:34:02.390 --> 00:34:05.529
to be a passive thing right it shouldn't be a

00:34:05.529 --> 00:34:09.409
a the primary source of income for someone to

00:34:09.409 --> 00:34:11.829
be out there putting a match game in their car

00:34:11.829 --> 00:34:15.510
wow so i think you know you have to be careful

00:34:15.510 --> 00:34:18.929
with making adjustments based on where the crypto

00:34:18.929 --> 00:34:22.110
market in price is without you know i don't speculate

00:34:22.110 --> 00:34:25.449
on price here yeah because if the market drops

00:34:25.449 --> 00:34:29.250
that can be an over adjustment very quickly yeah

00:34:29.250 --> 00:34:32.630
i mean it is tough a hundred percent like i don't

00:34:32.630 --> 00:34:35.690
think there's there there's no i mean we're trying

00:34:35.690 --> 00:34:38.010
look putting aside like prices and markets and

00:34:38.010 --> 00:34:40.889
all that kind of stuff like we're trying to basically

00:34:40.889 --> 00:34:43.630
say is how do we create this system so that from

00:34:43.630 --> 00:34:46.289
an incentive perspective it is very unlikely

00:34:46.289 --> 00:34:49.690
that somebody is going to go out there and actively

00:34:49.690 --> 00:34:54.230
map right and you know you're right brad like

00:34:54.230 --> 00:34:57.010
it is not easy to go do but that's that is really

00:34:57.010 --> 00:35:00.570
the core thinking that went behind this and you

00:35:00.570 --> 00:35:02.940
know i definitely want people to know because

00:35:02.940 --> 00:35:04.960
there's so many like incredibly thoughtful people

00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:07.400
in the community who who happen to be active

00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:10.340
mappers and this is not personal like we don't

00:35:10.340 --> 00:35:12.639
it's not a personal thing against them we hope

00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:14.260
that they continue to stay very engaged in the

00:35:14.260 --> 00:35:17.980
community um but it is just kind of looking out

00:35:17.980 --> 00:35:20.159
and saying okay how do we get to that level of

00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.480
like incredibly high refresh passive you know

00:35:23.480 --> 00:35:25.760
to really have a competitive amazing map data

00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:28.860
product um and so that that that's where a lot

00:35:28.860 --> 00:35:30.539
of the thinking and decision making that went

00:35:30.539 --> 00:35:34.579
into that So just to pivot away from that real

00:35:34.579 --> 00:35:36.679
quick, something I've always been curious about,

00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:40.579
you're very outspoken on the culture of startups.

00:35:41.139 --> 00:35:43.599
You've made quite a few posts on Twitter about

00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:47.460
it. What type of work dynamic are you trying

00:35:47.460 --> 00:35:51.920
to incorporate into or create at HiveMapper?

00:35:52.940 --> 00:35:55.980
So the answer I usually give to this is like,

00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:59.409
if you want to join... most people know the difference

00:35:59.409 --> 00:36:00.929
between joining the navy and joining the navy

00:36:00.929 --> 00:36:03.309
seals right if you join the navy you get a job

00:36:03.309 --> 00:36:05.250
on a ship you know you're working like nine to

00:36:05.250 --> 00:36:08.250
five you know maybe a couple you know times when

00:36:08.250 --> 00:36:10.829
things get stressful a little bit longer but

00:36:10.829 --> 00:36:13.110
fundamentally like it's more of a nine to five

00:36:13.110 --> 00:36:15.369
type of job if you join the navy seals like you

00:36:15.369 --> 00:36:17.429
know what you're signing up for it is not a nine

00:36:17.429 --> 00:36:20.300
to five job right like they need you on the other

00:36:20.300 --> 00:36:23.219
side of the world you know like right now you're

00:36:23.219 --> 00:36:24.900
jumping in there you may not sleep for a couple

00:36:24.900 --> 00:36:27.800
days it's very incredibly challenging it's also

00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:29.800
very challenging obviously just to become a navy

00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:33.599
seal right and so we are very interested at building

00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.880
a navy an organization that looks and feels much

00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:40.119
more like joining the navy seals um and understanding

00:36:40.119 --> 00:36:42.219
what that means right like when you go into the

00:36:42.219 --> 00:36:44.820
navy seals you're expecting to work hard you're

00:36:44.820 --> 00:36:47.440
expecting to like do very challenging types of

00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:50.480
missions and operations um and this is not easy

00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:52.380
like what we're doing is fundamentally really

00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:55.380
really really hard and so i think it's like just

00:36:55.380 --> 00:36:59.280
unfair to people if they come into hive map or

00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:01.420
thinking that i'm joining the navy right like

00:37:01.420 --> 00:37:03.219
hey i'm gonna go see the world it's gonna be

00:37:03.219 --> 00:37:05.000
cool i'm gonna go to a crypto conference you

00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:07.699
know i'm gonna hang out and you know party a

00:37:07.699 --> 00:37:11.679
little bit at this crypto thing like that's not

00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:14.480
us like that's just like flat out not us like

00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:17.300
we are gonna build and we're gonna work and we

00:37:17.300 --> 00:37:20.159
know this isn't easy uh we're trying to do a

00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:21.579
lot of different hard things we're trying to

00:37:21.579 --> 00:37:23.159
build a map and all that means we're trying to

00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:25.760
build a data data labeling platform we're trying

00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:28.539
to build a you know we are building hardware

00:37:28.539 --> 00:37:31.570
you know from the ground up um designing it building

00:37:31.570 --> 00:37:33.670
it etc so there's a lot of different moving parts

00:37:33.670 --> 00:37:36.289
and it is fundamentally challenging i think you

00:37:36.289 --> 00:37:38.730
have to be very clear with folks who are coming

00:37:38.730 --> 00:37:41.210
into the our organization is like this is not

00:37:41.210 --> 00:37:44.230
easy but we like that like if it was easy we'd

00:37:44.230 --> 00:37:47.230
go work at google and you know work three days

00:37:47.230 --> 00:37:50.289
a week there so to kind of piggyback on that

00:37:50.289 --> 00:37:52.489
there has been there has been some turnover in

00:37:52.489 --> 00:37:55.409
the organization recently And I don't know if

00:37:55.409 --> 00:37:56.329
you want to speak to that because there's a lot

00:37:56.329 --> 00:37:58.809
of, people are speculative about what may or

00:37:58.809 --> 00:38:00.550
may not have happened. So I want to open the

00:38:00.550 --> 00:38:02.170
door for you to talk to that if you want to.

00:38:02.369 --> 00:38:04.690
Well, look, at least in Silicon Valley, that's

00:38:04.690 --> 00:38:06.869
all very natural, right? Like in other words,

00:38:06.889 --> 00:38:08.750
there's different phases of a startup and different

00:38:08.750 --> 00:38:10.329
phases of startup require different kinds of

00:38:10.329 --> 00:38:14.690
people. And so this, you know, a lot of the people

00:38:14.690 --> 00:38:17.550
who've left, you know, over the last couple of

00:38:17.550 --> 00:38:19.610
months, like they're amazingly talented people,

00:38:19.809 --> 00:38:21.849
right? And I have a lot of respect for them on

00:38:21.849 --> 00:38:23.949
a personal level and professional level. But

00:38:23.949 --> 00:38:25.789
you do need different kinds of people at different

00:38:25.789 --> 00:38:28.630
stages of the company. And, you know, especially

00:38:28.630 --> 00:38:32.050
at the speed and at the rate that we're growing

00:38:32.050 --> 00:38:35.010
at, I think it would be weird if that wasn't

00:38:35.010 --> 00:38:37.949
the case. Right. You know, once you get into

00:38:37.949 --> 00:38:40.769
like the more stable, like, hey, we're whatever,

00:38:40.969 --> 00:38:43.449
we're at like a couple hundred million dollars

00:38:43.449 --> 00:38:46.230
a year in revenue. And like, you know, it's a

00:38:46.230 --> 00:38:48.110
little bit more mature. It's a billion dollars

00:38:48.110 --> 00:38:50.449
or three billion dollars in revenue. Like things

00:38:50.449 --> 00:38:53.309
aren't changing that rapidly. Right. And so.

00:38:53.849 --> 00:38:55.750
the kind of people that you hire they kind of

00:38:55.750 --> 00:38:58.750
know what to expect and you know the organization

00:38:58.750 --> 00:39:01.309
as a whole isn't like changing that much but

00:39:01.309 --> 00:39:03.949
we are changing very very rapidly right i mean

00:39:03.949 --> 00:39:05.730
the types of organizations that we're dealing

00:39:05.730 --> 00:39:08.389
with right now are like fortune 25 companies

00:39:08.389 --> 00:39:11.530
right it's just different than like what's required

00:39:11.530 --> 00:39:17.050
um when we were you know nobody that's fair yes

00:39:17.050 --> 00:39:19.150
i will say one other thing is like i think from

00:39:19.150 --> 00:39:21.909
a from an organizational perspective you know

00:39:21.909 --> 00:39:24.230
and this was my fault to be very clear and this

00:39:24.230 --> 00:39:26.250
affects Jay for a lot of you worked with Jay

00:39:26.250 --> 00:39:27.949
who Jay is, you know, who's, who's phenomenal.

00:39:28.190 --> 00:39:30.929
But, you know, what, what I felt like was if

00:39:30.929 --> 00:39:33.369
you have a product more, you can just, you have

00:39:33.369 --> 00:39:35.730
to decide who is going to be the primary decision

00:39:35.730 --> 00:39:38.369
makers in the organization when it comes to product.

00:39:39.030 --> 00:39:42.190
My view is that, and I changed my view on this

00:39:42.190 --> 00:39:44.989
to be clear, is that those decisions should be

00:39:44.989 --> 00:39:48.250
very rooted in the technical engineering team.

00:39:48.449 --> 00:39:53.400
Okay. And you want the most technical folks who

00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:57.300
really understand the underlying technology to

00:39:57.300 --> 00:40:01.119
have the freedom to like re -rank prioritization

00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:04.539
in real time based upon what they're actually

00:40:04.539 --> 00:40:06.940
building. And if you're waiting for product management

00:40:06.940 --> 00:40:08.940
and product managers to like make those decisions,

00:40:09.139 --> 00:40:13.559
it just slows down the organization. And so we've

00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:15.860
kind of pivoted away from product management

00:40:15.860 --> 00:40:18.119
and said, no, no, no, all these decisions are

00:40:18.119 --> 00:40:20.710
going to be made. at a much lower level in the

00:40:20.710 --> 00:40:23.610
organization by the engineers who are actually

00:40:23.610 --> 00:40:26.190
working on the problem literally writing the

00:40:26.190 --> 00:40:29.010
code you mentioned that the project has been

00:40:29.010 --> 00:40:31.630
just growing like a silicon valley company they're

00:40:31.630 --> 00:40:33.670
growing at a rapid rate and i'm curious to know

00:40:33.670 --> 00:40:37.050
if you are where you are expected to be at this

00:40:37.050 --> 00:40:40.690
point in terms of revenue participation i know

00:40:40.690 --> 00:40:42.969
you introduced the new b there's just been a

00:40:42.969 --> 00:40:45.550
surge of new people coming into this platform

00:40:45.550 --> 00:40:48.030
over the past couple of months so would you like

00:40:48.030 --> 00:40:51.239
to speak about that yeah i mean because we saw

00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:55.440
hive mapper working before we had crypto and

00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:58.719
then we saw helium um i was not surprised that

00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:01.119
it was going to work or that it did work right

00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:04.400
um and we had built like a lot of the underlying

00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:07.340
technology in terms of you know geo registration

00:41:07.340 --> 00:41:10.059
technology a bunch of like back -end important

00:41:10.059 --> 00:41:12.860
mapping technology to actually make the map beforehand

00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:15.900
so like i knew it was going to work because i

00:41:15.900 --> 00:41:17.900
kind of seen this story kind of play out multiple

00:41:17.900 --> 00:41:23.860
times um i think the ai trainer platform i knew

00:41:23.860 --> 00:41:25.539
that was going to work but i think it surprised

00:41:25.539 --> 00:41:27.760
me as to like i mentioned this before like how

00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:31.360
well it worked and how quickly like we went from

00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:33.420
i don't know a couple thousand people using it

00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:36.699
back in you know uh the summer of last year to

00:41:36.699 --> 00:41:39.780
like now i think we're at like 30 000. and so

00:41:39.780 --> 00:41:42.239
we've made intentional decisions right now to

00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:45.780
like basically slam the brakes on it right because

00:41:45.780 --> 00:41:48.480
like otherwise it just get back like it it become

00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.500
a really bad experience for all these map ai

00:41:50.500 --> 00:41:52.340
trainers and we just don't want that to happen

00:41:52.340 --> 00:41:56.460
so we are trying to slam the brakes on it aggressively

00:41:56.460 --> 00:41:59.519
so that you know we can kind of rebuild so that

00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:01.760
the map ai trainers who are coming in have a

00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:06.989
better experience um so you know Yeah, I think

00:42:06.989 --> 00:42:09.789
that generally speaking, we are where we want

00:42:09.789 --> 00:42:11.929
to be. I mean, I always want to go faster, to

00:42:11.929 --> 00:42:14.150
be honest with you. So like, I wish the bee was

00:42:14.150 --> 00:42:17.510
like in production right now when we were shipping

00:42:17.510 --> 00:42:22.349
like 500 of them per day. You know, so that's

00:42:22.349 --> 00:42:24.690
what I'm very focused on right now. And it never,

00:42:24.730 --> 00:42:28.670
it feels, I'm a very impatient person. So it

00:42:28.670 --> 00:42:33.230
feels very slow to me, quite frankly. Yeah. But

00:42:33.230 --> 00:42:35.210
we have to go through a lot of the pain and torture.

00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:38.880
associated with that product um to get it to

00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:41.119
like where it needs to be i wanted to piggyback

00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:43.179
off of that because you talked about manufacturing

00:42:43.179 --> 00:42:45.559
and stuff i know you guys manufacture in the

00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:48.340
us and there's going to be two different cameras

00:42:48.340 --> 00:42:53.559
the lte and the wi -fi plus lte uh so do you

00:42:53.559 --> 00:42:56.380
have plans to stay in the us and do you plan

00:42:56.380 --> 00:42:58.360
to do the same for the b and how will that impact

00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:00.760
your ability to meet that demand okay so let's

00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:03.739
talk about this is a good question okay so From

00:43:03.739 --> 00:43:05.599
a hardware manufacturing perspective, first of

00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:08.159
all, the HGC and HGCS, I don't think we're expecting

00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:09.940
as many orders that we ultimately got. And so

00:43:09.940 --> 00:43:12.219
those things from a design perspective, they

00:43:12.219 --> 00:43:16.739
were not designed to be high -volume manufacturing

00:43:16.739 --> 00:43:19.400
products. In other words, there's just fundamentally

00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:22.460
a lot of hands -on time that's required in order

00:43:22.460 --> 00:43:25.519
to go build those things. So you basically have

00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:28.079
your option if you want to increase production.

00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:33.619
you will reach a kind of a max amount, but you

00:43:33.619 --> 00:43:36.800
just have to hire more people, right? Fundamentally.

00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:41.519
So the B is being designed to be a high volume

00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:44.360
manufacturing. Now, I will caveat that in a second,

00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:46.940
but so we should be able to produce a lot more

00:43:46.940 --> 00:43:49.500
because there's fewer overall parts and just

00:43:49.500 --> 00:43:52.340
the way those parts actually come together is

00:43:52.340 --> 00:43:55.349
more optimized to be done by a robot. right so

00:43:55.349 --> 00:43:57.170
obviously a lot of thought and processes gone

00:43:57.170 --> 00:43:59.889
into that such that we can actually do high throughput

00:43:59.889 --> 00:44:04.489
manufacturing so the b is go is optimized to

00:44:04.489 --> 00:44:06.929
what i would refer to as like max from a vol

00:44:06.929 --> 00:44:10.409
you know annual volume probably like 200 000

00:44:10.409 --> 00:44:15.079
to 250 000 right if you go about it and there

00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:17.980
it is being automated to be clear right so every

00:44:17.980 --> 00:44:21.280
station will have robots you know even the boxes

00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:23.380
we're trying to say like how do you not involve

00:44:23.380 --> 00:44:25.900
a human in terms of like folding the boxes how

00:44:25.900 --> 00:44:27.440
is that all done automated and all that kind

00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:30.119
of stuff right how do we like make sure that

00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:33.960
the foam inserts like just slide in a lot easier

00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:36.099
that can be done by a robot all that kind of

00:44:36.099 --> 00:44:39.619
like level of detail right so literally every

00:44:39.619 --> 00:44:43.429
little station is being automated with a robot

00:44:43.429 --> 00:44:47.750
now if you want to go to the next level you know

00:44:47.750 --> 00:44:50.409
let's call it a million units per year then you

00:44:50.409 --> 00:44:54.530
actually have to build like semi -custom robots

00:44:54.530 --> 00:44:58.329
right at that point you you take it up that level

00:44:58.329 --> 00:45:01.369
to that kind of volume that is a different manufacturing

00:45:01.369 --> 00:45:04.059
process that we're having right now so we're

00:45:04.059 --> 00:45:05.800
good in terms of like what we're building right

00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:09.079
now to like 200 000 250 000 is probably where

00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:11.679
we can max out at but i feel pretty good about

00:45:11.679 --> 00:45:13.320
that based on the demand that i'm seeing right

00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:17.119
now um if we were to get to that level of like

00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:20.219
a million units then there is actually cost benefits

00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:23.019
associated with moving that production line outside

00:45:23.019 --> 00:45:26.199
the united states but not at the current levels

00:45:26.199 --> 00:45:28.420
that we're at like that is like if i look at

00:45:28.940 --> 00:45:31.739
the cost associated with it like maybe we could

00:45:31.739 --> 00:45:34.260
by moving it outside the united states we could

00:45:34.260 --> 00:45:37.159
shave like 10 or 15 bucks off of it that's not

00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:40.380
gonna like make or break it and if i have a problem

00:45:40.380 --> 00:45:43.199
i can like jump on a flight and be there in like

00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:47.380
three hours right versus like you know jumping

00:45:47.380 --> 00:45:50.420
on a flight to china or somewhere else where

00:45:50.420 --> 00:45:52.400
i'm not familiar with the language i'm not familiar

00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:54.880
with the culture it's a much longer flight all

00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:57.920
that kind of stuff yeah uh it's it's so hard

00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:00.639
to balance you know because like i were you guys

00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:02.000
i mean you had to have been a little caught off

00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:05.320
guard in december when we had that gigantic influx

00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:08.619
of orders everywhere right i mean i know you

00:46:08.619 --> 00:46:11.460
all ran a promotion but that really i mean that

00:46:11.460 --> 00:46:14.099
that did kind of hit out of nowhere in a sense

00:46:14.099 --> 00:46:15.940
right i mean i remember talking to you in your

00:46:15.940 --> 00:46:18.820
office in like spring of yeah three and we were

00:46:18.820 --> 00:46:20.840
talking about how that happens especially when

00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:24.199
there's crypto involved but yeah um Yeah. So

00:46:24.199 --> 00:46:26.219
what did you learn from that whole situation

00:46:26.219 --> 00:46:29.019
out of curiosity? Yeah. When crypto works, it

00:46:29.019 --> 00:46:34.159
can work too well. But I do want to also like

00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:36.099
just on that, because I think a lot of people

00:46:36.099 --> 00:46:37.320
would be like, hey, why did you do the promotion

00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:39.900
and all that kind of stuff? We made the decision

00:46:39.900 --> 00:46:41.840
to basically retire the, you know, ultimately

00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:44.880
retire the HTC and HTCS in January timeframe.

00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:47.559
And that was my decision. Right. And so basically

00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:51.460
what I saw happening was. So the idea was we're

00:46:51.460 --> 00:46:52.639
going to launch the B. We knew we were going

00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:56.639
to launch the B, obviously. But we were also

00:46:56.639 --> 00:47:01.500
going to keep the HTC as another option. And

00:47:01.500 --> 00:47:04.219
so people can disagree with me on this, but I

00:47:04.219 --> 00:47:07.260
basically felt like, look, at that point, you're

00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:09.880
going to have two different production lines

00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:12.679
that are, in my view, would be subscale. And

00:47:12.679 --> 00:47:14.239
then you're not really going to get all the cost

00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:18.570
benefits associated with. volume purchase orders

00:47:18.570 --> 00:47:21.030
from suppliers. You're not going to be able to

00:47:21.030 --> 00:47:23.849
optimize and automate every single little step

00:47:23.849 --> 00:47:25.989
because your focus and your attention and your

00:47:25.989 --> 00:47:29.030
resources is going to be split between the HTC

00:47:29.030 --> 00:47:32.510
and the B. And so then I ultimately made the

00:47:32.510 --> 00:47:35.170
decision that we have to retire the B and that

00:47:35.170 --> 00:47:36.510
we're going to have to go down that path so that

00:47:36.510 --> 00:47:38.690
we can put all of our energy and resources and

00:47:38.690 --> 00:47:42.949
R &D and get the volume of orders up as high

00:47:42.949 --> 00:47:46.099
as possible. such that we can actually get better

00:47:46.099 --> 00:47:48.099
deals with all the suppliers, right? Because

00:47:48.099 --> 00:47:50.800
if you go to a supplier for, let's say, the GNSS

00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:53.139
chip or the stereo depth cameras, and you say,

00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:55.800
I want to order 25 ,000 of these, that's very

00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:57.559
different than showing up saying, I want to order

00:47:57.559 --> 00:47:59.000
5 ,000, right? You're just going to get a better

00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:03.380
deal, right? If you show up with 50 ,000, you're

00:48:03.380 --> 00:48:05.820
going to get a better deal than 25 ,000. And

00:48:05.820 --> 00:48:08.739
that's really what drives scale and manufacturing

00:48:08.739 --> 00:48:11.000
and all that kind of stuff that helps bring down

00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:14.119
the cost. right to you guys and to other contributors

00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:16.599
all over the world and so so that was the thinking

00:48:16.599 --> 00:48:18.440
that went into this there was nothing like nefarious

00:48:18.440 --> 00:48:20.639
like we're like hey we want to like you know

00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:23.659
shove it to these people with the htc or whatever

00:48:23.659 --> 00:48:27.460
like it was literally economics associated with

00:48:27.460 --> 00:48:29.739
if we had two different production lines then

00:48:29.739 --> 00:48:32.260
your attention and resource like you will never

00:48:32.260 --> 00:48:34.519
get to some sort of interesting cost effective

00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:37.460
scale with either of them i'm curious to know

00:48:37.460 --> 00:48:41.340
as far as for the the b wi -fi and the b wi -fi

00:48:41.340 --> 00:48:43.860
plus cellular are they fundamentally like the

00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:46.699
same frame so you can streamline the production

00:48:46.699 --> 00:48:48.840
the only difference is the different bands within

00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:53.000
so they are the exact same device the only thing

00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:56.539
is that for the wi -fi version the the literally

00:48:56.539 --> 00:49:00.079
the place where the lte module sets will there

00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:04.670
won't be anything there so uh it is not a it's

00:49:04.670 --> 00:49:06.469
i forgot the exact cost of the module i think

00:49:06.469 --> 00:49:08.449
it was like 80 bucks or 75 bucks i don't remember

00:49:08.449 --> 00:49:13.710
don't quote me on that but that is um you know

00:49:13.710 --> 00:49:17.730
the only difference between the two um yeah so

00:49:17.730 --> 00:49:20.090
there is no other difference i think this is

00:49:20.090 --> 00:49:21.809
a you know just being really transparent with

00:49:21.809 --> 00:49:27.289
you guys um the initially the lte version what

00:49:27.289 --> 00:49:30.050
and maybe you guys can help us on this front

00:49:30.670 --> 00:49:33.650
But originally the LTE version was selling at

00:49:33.650 --> 00:49:36.630
like roughly 70 -30. So 70 % of orders that were

00:49:36.630 --> 00:49:40.610
coming in were LTE and 30 % were Wi -Fi, which

00:49:40.610 --> 00:49:42.610
was kind of like what we expected and what we

00:49:42.610 --> 00:49:45.730
were hoping for. Now what we're seeing is a little

00:49:45.730 --> 00:49:49.150
bit more 50 -50. I don't think that's good. I

00:49:49.150 --> 00:49:51.550
think we have to fix that, right? I think part

00:49:51.550 --> 00:49:54.630
of it is like we have to be more clear with how

00:49:54.630 --> 00:49:58.429
LTE is going to work and SIM cards and all that

00:49:58.429 --> 00:50:00.230
kind of stuff. yeah i think we need to better

00:50:00.230 --> 00:50:02.429
understand what the price you know what's the

00:50:02.429 --> 00:50:04.769
cost of that data plan going to look like right

00:50:04.769 --> 00:50:07.590
um i know you all are trying to get the the amount

00:50:07.590 --> 00:50:11.369
of data that's uploaded down yeah help with that

00:50:11.369 --> 00:50:14.530
right but i think people like we kind of need

00:50:14.530 --> 00:50:16.369
to understand what the cost of that service is

00:50:16.369 --> 00:50:18.849
going to be to make an educated decision there

00:50:18.849 --> 00:50:21.949
so still on that subject i'm wondering uh some

00:50:21.949 --> 00:50:24.710
of the takeaways from the initial creation of

00:50:24.710 --> 00:50:29.550
the hdc hdcs What'd you learn and incorporate

00:50:29.550 --> 00:50:33.849
into the new B dash cams? Yeah. So, so the HGCS

00:50:33.849 --> 00:50:37.630
actually almost died like as a project, what

00:50:37.630 --> 00:50:39.769
I'm going to say, not as a, as a product, but

00:50:39.769 --> 00:50:43.230
like as a project you know, many of you were

00:50:43.230 --> 00:50:46.389
incredibly patient and stayed with it. But you

00:50:46.389 --> 00:50:48.590
know, we, we ran into a lot of issues and we

00:50:48.590 --> 00:50:50.289
were unsure as like whether or not we were going

00:50:50.289 --> 00:50:51.929
to continue. We thought we were like, okay, maybe

00:50:51.929 --> 00:50:53.630
we'll just give everybody their money back or

00:50:53.630 --> 00:50:54.949
whatever, but that didn't feel like the right

00:50:54.949 --> 00:50:58.460
thing to do. And there was some technology, specifically

00:50:58.460 --> 00:51:00.619
the depth sensors, the stereo depth cameras,

00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:03.719
that we really wanted to see working at a meaningful

00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:07.900
scale. So that was very important to us, that

00:51:07.900 --> 00:51:11.159
we saw that and we saw that working at a really

00:51:11.159 --> 00:51:13.900
high level of scale. Because what that meant

00:51:13.900 --> 00:51:18.019
was we can move all of the Map AI processing

00:51:18.019 --> 00:51:21.039
engine to the device if we have those stereo

00:51:21.039 --> 00:51:24.159
depth cameras in there. Obviously, the HTC doesn't

00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:27.309
have those. And so I think that was very important

00:51:27.309 --> 00:51:29.070
learning that we saw that and we experienced

00:51:29.070 --> 00:51:31.630
that at the level of scale that we needed to.

00:51:33.130 --> 00:51:35.849
So to me, that was probably the most critical

00:51:35.849 --> 00:51:38.570
learning between the two different devices that

00:51:38.570 --> 00:51:43.050
we have out there. You know, the other reason,

00:51:43.190 --> 00:51:47.420
you know, LTE as a piece of technology. We're

00:51:47.420 --> 00:51:50.099
not inventing anything new there, right? So a

00:51:50.099 --> 00:51:52.340
lot of people would yell at us, understandably,

00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:54.559
being like, hey, why don't you have LTE on the

00:51:54.559 --> 00:51:56.920
existing high mapper dash cam and the high mapper

00:51:56.920 --> 00:51:59.820
dash cam S model? And the reason didn't have

00:51:59.820 --> 00:52:03.440
to do anything with like, you can't put LTE on

00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:06.360
it until you actually figure out how to move

00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:08.679
map AI such that you don't actually have to upload

00:52:08.679 --> 00:52:11.360
all the imagery, right? If you have to upload

00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:13.099
all the imagery and you have to do that all through

00:52:13.099 --> 00:52:16.789
LTE, it's not going to work. um like you will

00:52:16.789 --> 00:52:21.530
it just simply won't work and so um you know

00:52:21.530 --> 00:52:24.849
step one was how do we move all of the map ai

00:52:24.849 --> 00:52:28.230
processing so that it can you know find objects

00:52:28.230 --> 00:52:31.909
classify objects and then position objects all

00:52:31.909 --> 00:52:34.090
on the device and you have to do that and you

00:52:34.090 --> 00:52:38.690
have to do that reliably well um now the the

00:52:38.690 --> 00:52:43.710
b is longer from a width perspective And that

00:52:43.710 --> 00:52:47.690
is to accommodate what is called baseline of

00:52:47.690 --> 00:52:50.329
the stereo depth cameras. So you want those as

00:52:50.329 --> 00:52:52.610
wide as possible. If you've ever seen like a

00:52:52.610 --> 00:52:56.650
Subaru EyeSight, which is like their ADAS, you

00:52:56.650 --> 00:52:58.730
know, kind of automated driving, autonomous driving

00:52:58.730 --> 00:53:02.130
capabilities. If you notice like they have stereo

00:53:02.130 --> 00:53:05.030
depth cameras as well, they're quite wide from

00:53:05.030 --> 00:53:08.590
one another. and so the reason that that's really

00:53:08.590 --> 00:53:10.630
important or that width that we added to the

00:53:10.630 --> 00:53:15.230
b is really important is such that um we can

00:53:15.230 --> 00:53:17.250
see objects that are further away from the vehicle

00:53:17.250 --> 00:53:22.690
um and so that is uh you know if every for every

00:53:22.690 --> 00:53:24.769
object if you had to be like five meters from

00:53:24.769 --> 00:53:26.489
the vehicle or seven meters like there are some

00:53:26.489 --> 00:53:28.309
objects that you literally would never be able

00:53:28.309 --> 00:53:30.210
to map because they're just like further away

00:53:30.210 --> 00:53:33.389
from the road than five or seven meters right

00:53:34.039 --> 00:53:35.900
Or you would just have to see the object many,

00:53:36.019 --> 00:53:37.920
many, many, many different times, right? And

00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:39.300
so we're like, okay, look, we're going to widen

00:53:39.300 --> 00:53:41.659
this out. And so that was one of the other kind

00:53:41.659 --> 00:53:46.139
of key learnings. From a GNSS perspective, you

00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:47.860
know, a lot of people give a shit about that.

00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:49.840
But the issue there is actually, I mean, there

00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:52.099
is some issues in terms of the GNSS module that

00:53:52.099 --> 00:53:56.579
it was only single band. Now the new one is L1,

00:53:56.619 --> 00:54:01.329
L5, so dual band. But the bigger issue is actually

00:54:01.329 --> 00:54:03.889
the antenna. The GNSS antenna that we had was,

00:54:03.909 --> 00:54:07.050
in my view, was too small on both of the different

00:54:07.050 --> 00:54:09.389
models. And so the GNSS antenna that we have

00:54:09.389 --> 00:54:12.150
is actually really large. And I think it's just

00:54:12.150 --> 00:54:15.650
positioned better in the actual device so that

00:54:15.650 --> 00:54:19.750
it can see more of the sky. We are looking at

00:54:19.750 --> 00:54:24.849
like PPK and RTK. It does not make sense to do

00:54:24.849 --> 00:54:28.630
it 100 % of the time. for us there are specific

00:54:28.630 --> 00:54:31.570
scenarios and specific locations where that it

00:54:31.570 --> 00:54:34.309
can be valuable to us and we may employ it there

00:54:34.309 --> 00:54:36.510
but there's some other approaches that we're

00:54:36.510 --> 00:54:39.429
also looking at that like in a city let's say

00:54:39.429 --> 00:54:42.210
that has and i don't want to go too deep into

00:54:42.210 --> 00:54:43.550
this because like we're getting pretty technical

00:54:43.550 --> 00:54:46.989
but like if you if you have a city with let's

00:54:46.989 --> 00:54:53.590
say 500 or a thousand active b devices there's

00:54:53.590 --> 00:54:55.530
an approach to positioning where they can all

00:54:55.530 --> 00:54:59.659
kind of help themselves and apply gnss or gps

00:54:59.659 --> 00:55:03.519
corrections but you you do need to get like their

00:55:03.519 --> 00:55:05.159
certain level of scale to be able to go do that

00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:07.340
that's probably a its own topic that goes pretty

00:55:07.340 --> 00:55:09.460
technical but happy to do that if you guys want

00:55:09.460 --> 00:55:12.699
to geek out on that stuff uh i'd love to but

00:55:12.699 --> 00:55:14.380
i think we'll lose some people in the audience

00:55:14.380 --> 00:55:19.139
i saw i saw i was like starting to lose like

00:55:19.139 --> 00:55:23.289
i started talking about like gps I think all

00:55:23.289 --> 00:55:25.309
of us have been involved in those types of projects,

00:55:25.369 --> 00:55:28.050
so we have some level of understanding how that

00:55:28.050 --> 00:55:31.329
works. It's very interesting to me, and I'm all

00:55:31.329 --> 00:55:35.170
for doing another show where maybe we bring on

00:55:35.170 --> 00:55:37.550
developers, some of your hardware engineers,

00:55:37.809 --> 00:55:42.769
and really geek out. There was an episode done

00:55:42.769 --> 00:55:46.210
on HeliumHack's happy hour. I was the one who

00:55:46.210 --> 00:55:48.340
coordinated that, by the way. with one of my

00:55:48.340 --> 00:55:50.519
good friends, Travis Teague, and one of your

00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:52.659
hardware engineers. And the information you get

00:55:52.659 --> 00:55:55.519
from this is just phenomenal. You get so much

00:55:55.519 --> 00:55:57.840
of an in -depth understanding. And when we talk

00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:01.179
about how this stuff works, for people who are

00:56:01.179 --> 00:56:02.940
able to dissect it and look at it logically,

00:56:03.099 --> 00:56:04.940
I think it puts some of the conspiracy theories

00:56:04.940 --> 00:56:07.840
to bed. I'm sure new conspiracy theories will

00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:12.780
start to emerge. We'll put something to bed and

00:56:12.780 --> 00:56:15.639
then like, you know, you'll say something or

00:56:15.639 --> 00:56:18.199
I'll say something and then boom, you know, like

00:56:18.199 --> 00:56:23.539
some conspiracy theory we'll like. So what were

00:56:23.539 --> 00:56:26.659
some of your initial assumptions behind the customer

00:56:26.659 --> 00:56:32.480
map data expectations and how they differed as

00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:36.280
the requests have come in? I mean, most of like.

00:56:36.730 --> 00:56:38.369
the customers that we're dealing with today are

00:56:38.369 --> 00:56:39.789
kinds of customers that i've been working with

00:56:39.789 --> 00:56:42.030
for a long time now so i'm not like super surprised

00:56:42.030 --> 00:56:45.449
on them um i do think that like as you get more

00:56:45.449 --> 00:56:47.510
and more into the automotive sector which is

00:56:47.510 --> 00:56:49.849
like you know maps for cars type of stuff um

00:56:49.849 --> 00:56:53.630
is which i love by the way to be clear is they

00:56:53.630 --> 00:56:56.510
really want to like open up the hood of the car

00:56:56.510 --> 00:56:58.929
you know metaphorically like they want to open

00:56:58.929 --> 00:57:01.130
up the hood of hive mapper and really dig in

00:57:01.130 --> 00:57:04.119
and put their hands into the product right um

00:57:04.119 --> 00:57:05.980
a lot of the customers especially at the higher

00:57:05.980 --> 00:57:08.880
end right the customers who can spend you know

00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:11.559
a lot of money with hive mapper they're they're

00:57:11.559 --> 00:57:14.019
technically very very sophisticated right and

00:57:14.019 --> 00:57:17.440
so if you show up and you're like here's my product

00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:20.659
you know and you know i'm a vendor and here's

00:57:20.659 --> 00:57:23.239
the data and you know i don't tell you how it's

00:57:23.239 --> 00:57:25.559
created and you can't see how it's created and

00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:27.980
all that kind of stuff i don't think that's very

00:57:27.980 --> 00:57:30.550
exciting for them i don't think that's You're

00:57:30.550 --> 00:57:34.050
not going to build any level of trust and comfort

00:57:34.050 --> 00:57:37.489
with those customers if that's your sales approach.

00:57:38.150 --> 00:57:41.070
And so what I love about HiveMapper right now,

00:57:41.230 --> 00:57:44.170
and we're doing more of this, is like you can

00:57:44.170 --> 00:57:46.349
dig into the map AI trainers. I mean, you as

00:57:46.349 --> 00:57:48.630
a customer can do map AI training, right? In

00:57:48.630 --> 00:57:50.269
other words, like you're doing the QA, you're

00:57:50.269 --> 00:57:52.190
doing the data labeling and all that kind of

00:57:52.190 --> 00:57:55.349
stuff as a customer. and so you start to see

00:57:55.349 --> 00:57:58.210
how the map is made yourself right like you don't

00:57:58.210 --> 00:58:00.309
just take our word for it when we show up in

00:58:00.309 --> 00:58:02.750
the sales presentation mode it's like you can

00:58:02.750 --> 00:58:05.449
go do that yourself right and we're gonna do

00:58:05.449 --> 00:58:07.070
more of this right so there's a project that

00:58:07.070 --> 00:58:09.469
we're working on right now called data sets what

00:58:09.469 --> 00:58:12.570
that basically is is customers can see and everyone

00:58:12.570 --> 00:58:15.650
can see for that matter the entire data taxonomy

00:58:15.650 --> 00:58:18.130
right in other words you have speed limit signs

00:58:18.130 --> 00:58:22.250
you have roads you have lanes you have uh you

00:58:22.250 --> 00:58:25.429
know specialized situations like road constructions

00:58:25.429 --> 00:58:28.230
or police activity or flooding how do they all

00:58:28.230 --> 00:58:30.329
interrelate to each other right like what are

00:58:30.329 --> 00:58:31.969
the relationships between these two different

00:58:31.969 --> 00:58:34.670
data sets and then what are actual like real

00:58:34.670 --> 00:58:37.650
examples that we have in them and then ultimately

00:58:37.650 --> 00:58:40.309
giving customers and members of the community

00:58:40.309 --> 00:58:43.050
the opportunity to add new objects right like

00:58:43.050 --> 00:58:44.809
hey i don't know i'm just making this up but

00:58:44.809 --> 00:58:47.190
like i want to go add commercial real estate

00:58:47.190 --> 00:58:51.280
signs to the map right okay great like add that

00:58:51.280 --> 00:58:54.280
into the data taxonomy start to then label data

00:58:54.280 --> 00:58:56.900
right that is it provides a good example that

00:58:56.900 --> 00:58:59.679
gets fed into map ai and then out the other end

00:58:59.679 --> 00:59:01.619
starts to come commercial real estate signs that

00:59:01.619 --> 00:59:04.239
show up on the map right and so i think that

00:59:04.239 --> 00:59:06.500
is a big part of what we're doing from a product

00:59:06.500 --> 00:59:09.320
perspective that aligns with what customers want

00:59:09.320 --> 00:59:12.059
which is they want to feel like they can dig

00:59:12.059 --> 00:59:13.940
into it right because a lot of these customers

00:59:13.940 --> 00:59:17.219
have their own mapping operation and so if you

00:59:17.219 --> 00:59:20.199
just show up as you know a vendor saying you

00:59:20.199 --> 00:59:22.780
know here's my data and then you don't show them

00:59:22.780 --> 00:59:25.679
how that data is getting created like it just

00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:28.420
doesn't work another question i had in the terms

00:59:28.420 --> 00:59:31.440
of untried ideas what would you say some of the

00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:34.119
immediate successes are from the hive mapper

00:59:34.119 --> 00:59:36.840
team things maybe weren't sure would work initially

00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:39.340
but worked and then on the other hand what are

00:59:39.340 --> 00:59:41.199
some that maybe had to send back to the drawing

00:59:41.199 --> 00:59:44.300
board well i don't think we've nailed the whole

00:59:44.300 --> 00:59:47.659
contribution through the phone yet like in other

00:59:47.659 --> 00:59:51.179
words there is value of um people contributing

00:59:51.179 --> 00:59:54.099
and reporting issues through their phone kind

00:59:54.099 --> 00:59:57.539
of like ways style as well as you know the gps

00:59:57.539 --> 01:00:01.400
data that comes from that um from the phone which

01:00:01.400 --> 01:00:05.099
can provide valuable traffic information so you

01:00:05.099 --> 01:00:07.860
know we've talked a little bit um in the past

01:00:07.860 --> 01:00:11.360
about having the right type of driver um and

01:00:11.360 --> 01:00:13.940
i think fleets is going to be a you know a big

01:00:13.940 --> 01:00:15.760
part of that i i personally have my own fleet

01:00:15.760 --> 01:00:17.840
i know there are quite a few fleet managers out

01:00:17.840 --> 01:00:20.619
there now but you know what where do you see

01:00:20.619 --> 01:00:23.559
the future as far as fleets go how critical is

01:00:23.559 --> 01:00:25.340
that going to be for the success of the project

01:00:25.340 --> 01:00:29.300
moving forward yeah um okay so let's define fleets

01:00:29.300 --> 01:00:31.079
because i think there's two types of fleets i

01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:34.059
think there are fleets that are what i would

01:00:34.059 --> 01:00:36.300
refer to as like entrepreneurial fleets right

01:00:36.300 --> 01:00:39.280
brad you're an entrepreneur you know chris and

01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:43.099
joe um you guys have fleets as well right um

01:00:43.099 --> 01:00:47.860
okay so you know so we refer to those as entrepreneurial

01:00:47.860 --> 01:00:51.219
fleets right in other words you buy you know

01:00:51.219 --> 01:00:54.920
50 70 100 dash cams whatever it is and then you

01:00:54.920 --> 01:00:56.940
go and identify the right drivers and you find

01:00:56.940 --> 01:00:58.880
those drivers and then you split tokens with

01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:01.739
them and so forth right it's been obviously like

01:01:01.739 --> 01:01:03.820
massively important and valuable to the growth

01:01:03.820 --> 01:01:07.340
of the network um and we want to continue to

01:01:07.340 --> 01:01:09.780
support that There's another type of fleet, which

01:01:09.780 --> 01:01:11.639
is commercial fleets, right? So these are people

01:01:11.639 --> 01:01:17.219
who have existing vehicles, right? So, hey, I

01:01:17.219 --> 01:01:19.820
have a pest control business and I have 75 different

01:01:19.820 --> 01:01:21.219
trucks that are on the road every single day

01:01:21.219 --> 01:01:23.900
doing whatever, 7, 8, 10 stops per day or something

01:01:23.900 --> 01:01:27.179
like that, right? We also want to support them.

01:01:27.380 --> 01:01:30.639
They have slightly different needs. They're not

01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:32.860
primarily interested in the honey token. The

01:01:32.860 --> 01:01:34.960
honey token to them is like icing on the cake.

01:01:36.210 --> 01:01:38.650
They are interested in a lot of the safety features,

01:01:38.789 --> 01:01:40.949
which I'll talk about in a second, and kind of

01:01:40.949 --> 01:01:43.550
monitoring features that the dash cam provides

01:01:43.550 --> 01:01:46.730
them. They are interesting from the perspective

01:01:46.730 --> 01:01:49.289
of not every single type of fleet, but there

01:01:49.289 --> 01:01:52.150
are certain kinds of fleets. Like long haul truckers

01:01:52.150 --> 01:01:54.269
from a fleet perspective, commercial fleet perspective,

01:01:54.369 --> 01:01:57.630
isn't super interesting. You know, going from

01:01:57.630 --> 01:02:00.730
like, I don't know, Chicago to San Francisco,

01:02:00.769 --> 01:02:03.630
whatever, through Highway 80. Like we don't need

01:02:03.630 --> 01:02:08.769
that like that often. um but the the more interesting

01:02:08.769 --> 01:02:11.469
ones are like the local delivery ones right that's

01:02:11.469 --> 01:02:15.530
really valuable and so we are you know what you

01:02:15.530 --> 01:02:17.789
saw announced this past week and what we're definitely

01:02:17.789 --> 01:02:20.309
working towards is like how do we add some of

01:02:20.309 --> 01:02:22.250
those safety features and monitoring features

01:02:22.250 --> 01:02:26.070
that are really important and relevant to those

01:02:26.070 --> 01:02:29.389
types of fleets now we tried this with the highmapper

01:02:29.389 --> 01:02:31.349
dashcam and the highmapper dashcam s and it didn't

01:02:31.349 --> 01:02:32.969
work the reason it didn't work was because there

01:02:32.969 --> 01:02:35.500
was no lte and so the driver had to like go do

01:02:35.500 --> 01:02:38.659
all this additional shit sorry i can't curse

01:02:38.659 --> 01:02:42.079
on your channel sorry about that uh so had to

01:02:42.079 --> 01:02:46.719
do all this additional stuff uh to you know move

01:02:46.719 --> 01:02:48.760
all the data and that was like a non -starter

01:02:48.760 --> 01:02:52.199
for basically all of them and so now with the

01:02:52.199 --> 01:02:57.280
b it having lt option um it we can support those

01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:00.460
commercial fleets um and so we're yeah we're

01:03:00.460 --> 01:03:03.300
working on doing that um you know the thing that

01:03:03.300 --> 01:03:06.860
they really care about is the ability to detect

01:03:06.860 --> 01:03:11.000
you know accidents aggressive driving behaviors

01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:16.340
by their drivers um driving outside of the allotted

01:03:16.340 --> 01:03:18.539
time with their vehicle right some of them say

01:03:18.539 --> 01:03:21.139
okay yeah you can take your vehicle home but

01:03:21.139 --> 01:03:22.960
you can't drive it on the weekends right as like

01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:25.239
your primary vehicle like it's it's really a

01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:27.980
work vehicle so there's all these different kinds

01:03:27.980 --> 01:03:30.280
of things that they really care about um and

01:03:30.280 --> 01:03:31.659
so we're yeah we're going to add a lot of those

01:03:31.659 --> 01:03:33.780
capabilities and features so that we can go after

01:03:33.780 --> 01:03:36.800
that market we to be clear like we are not going

01:03:36.800 --> 01:03:40.199
after you know fleets like a fedex like they

01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:43.900
have i don't know 50 000 70 000 vehicles you

01:03:43.900 --> 01:03:46.219
know their their requirements and feature list

01:03:46.219 --> 01:03:49.599
is like you know 10 pages long so that that's

01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:51.500
not really what we're focused on we're focused

01:03:51.500 --> 01:03:53.699
on you know people who have maybe 50 vehicles

01:03:53.699 --> 01:03:57.179
or 200 or 300 that's kind of more of the sweet

01:03:57.179 --> 01:03:59.139
spot that we're going to be focused on I think

01:03:59.139 --> 01:04:01.579
that makes a lot of sense. I mean, also, if the

01:04:01.579 --> 01:04:05.480
features become the primary purpose for them

01:04:05.480 --> 01:04:08.280
interacting with the project, it takes away some

01:04:08.280 --> 01:04:10.179
of the volatility of the crypto aspect of it.

01:04:10.199 --> 01:04:12.820
Right. And I think that gives you more stability

01:04:12.820 --> 01:04:15.699
for sure. I think that's the right way to look

01:04:15.699 --> 01:04:18.480
at it. And then, yeah, with the B, they won't

01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:21.539
have to do all that other shit. I mean, some

01:04:21.539 --> 01:04:23.360
of them even say to us, like, I don't even care

01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:25.300
about the honey tokens. Like, they literally

01:04:25.300 --> 01:04:28.159
do not care at all. you know, I think some of

01:04:28.159 --> 01:04:31.119
them are skeptical of it or just, you know, don't

01:04:31.119 --> 01:04:35.260
want to deal with that hassle. And so, yes, like

01:04:35.260 --> 01:04:37.860
to them, it's about the capabilities, number

01:04:37.860 --> 01:04:40.579
one. And then what we provide from, we have a

01:04:40.579 --> 01:04:42.659
big cost advantage, right? So if you go to like

01:04:42.659 --> 01:04:45.460
somebody like a Samsara, you know, you're signing

01:04:45.460 --> 01:04:48.079
up for a minimum three -year contract, right?

01:04:48.280 --> 01:04:51.099
And so per vehicle, you're probably paying $40

01:04:51.099 --> 01:04:55.239
to $80 per month for three years. Like with HiveMapper,

01:04:55.300 --> 01:04:57.800
what we tell them is like, look, there's no contract,

01:04:58.019 --> 01:05:01.219
right? You buy the device, here's the capabilities

01:05:01.219 --> 01:05:03.860
that you get. That's very appealing, especially

01:05:03.860 --> 01:05:08.019
to the smaller, you know, fleet operators. For

01:05:08.019 --> 01:05:11.300
sure. And I know personally, because I'm working

01:05:11.300 --> 01:05:13.000
with a lot of fleets, right? And business owners

01:05:13.000 --> 01:05:15.780
from my last job that they pay a fair amount

01:05:15.780 --> 01:05:18.510
of money for these fleet management tools. So

01:05:18.510 --> 01:05:21.769
if you can find a way to easily subsidize the

01:05:21.769 --> 01:05:23.929
data they're collecting to cover some of the

01:05:23.929 --> 01:05:26.329
cost of that, you know, whether it be the LTE

01:05:26.329 --> 01:05:29.449
plan or whatever, to replace that cost, I think

01:05:29.449 --> 01:05:32.050
there's a huge, huge market there to tap into.

01:05:32.530 --> 01:05:35.429
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, yeah, obviously

01:05:35.429 --> 01:05:36.969
they will have to pay for the LTE. So that's

01:05:36.969 --> 01:05:38.690
like the really ongoing cost. But what we've

01:05:38.690 --> 01:05:41.030
heard from them so far is like, look, I just

01:05:41.030 --> 01:05:42.670
like the fact that I'm not locked in. Right.

01:05:43.269 --> 01:05:46.190
And so for three years or five years, so like,

01:05:46.250 --> 01:05:48.750
hey, if I stop using it, like. I don't have to

01:05:48.750 --> 01:05:52.150
continue to pay you guys or whatever. So that

01:05:52.150 --> 01:05:55.469
I think is kind of from a cost perspective, really

01:05:55.469 --> 01:06:00.030
appealing to them. So it will definitely become

01:06:00.030 --> 01:06:03.690
a big part of the network. It will take some

01:06:03.690 --> 01:06:06.130
time, right? I mean, you guys know this, you

01:06:06.130 --> 01:06:08.550
guys work on, some of you guys work on the B2B

01:06:08.550 --> 01:06:11.869
sales side. It doesn't just happen like that.

01:06:12.429 --> 01:06:15.409
So what are some of your goals for the global

01:06:15.409 --> 01:06:18.179
coverage? say a year from now, two years from

01:06:18.179 --> 01:06:22.059
now, and you say it's not something you can complete

01:06:22.059 --> 01:06:25.099
in six to nine months, what's a realistic timeframe

01:06:25.099 --> 01:06:29.179
you're looking at for a complete yet ongoing

01:06:29.179 --> 01:06:32.840
refreshed map? Look, I think we're at like 20

01:06:32.840 --> 01:06:34.980
% of the global road network that we've done

01:06:34.980 --> 01:06:39.059
so far, which is great, which is amazing. I think

01:06:39.059 --> 01:06:40.920
by the end of this year, I don't know, we'll

01:06:40.920 --> 01:06:46.010
probably be at something like 35. um maybe 40

01:06:46.010 --> 01:06:48.269
percent of the global road network obviously

01:06:48.269 --> 01:06:51.369
it's harder and harder right uh to find new roads

01:06:51.369 --> 01:06:54.809
as many of you guys know um but the thing that

01:06:54.809 --> 01:06:57.289
i'm actually more focused on is like take a region

01:06:57.289 --> 01:07:00.750
like la right it's about i don't know the entire

01:07:00.750 --> 01:07:04.929
region of la the metro area is like roughly a

01:07:04.929 --> 01:07:08.050
hundred thousand road kilometers right so what

01:07:08.050 --> 01:07:10.269
i'm really focused on is saying is like how do

01:07:10.269 --> 01:07:13.110
we get enough drivers in la so that we can be

01:07:13.110 --> 01:07:18.460
refreshing you know the the major arteries of

01:07:18.460 --> 01:07:21.260
that of that of la there's a lot of them to be

01:07:21.260 --> 01:07:24.480
clear you know three four five six seven times

01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:27.820
a week right that's kind of like the next challenge

01:07:27.820 --> 01:07:30.320
for us when people say like oh hive mapper is

01:07:30.320 --> 01:07:33.400
getting saturated there's too many drivers i

01:07:33.400 --> 01:07:35.820
mean i look at like some of these regions even

01:07:35.820 --> 01:07:37.639
like in la and just like that's not the case

01:07:37.639 --> 01:07:41.980
at all um and so that incredibly high refresh

01:07:41.980 --> 01:07:44.980
rate you know region by region is the thing that

01:07:44.980 --> 01:07:47.559
i'm much more fixated on because kind of going

01:07:47.559 --> 01:07:49.599
back to the beginning of like what are the markets

01:07:49.599 --> 01:07:52.659
and use cases that we're after like that's really

01:07:52.659 --> 01:07:55.519
when you start to get really really interesting

01:07:55.519 --> 01:07:57.639
i mean the the data products that you can provide

01:07:57.639 --> 01:08:00.900
when you're refreshing a region like la you know

01:08:00.900 --> 01:08:04.909
five six seven eight times a week is fundamentally

01:08:04.909 --> 01:08:07.409
different than if you do it you know once every

01:08:07.409 --> 01:08:09.949
two months or every three months so just totally

01:08:09.949 --> 01:08:11.949
different product totally different ball game

01:08:11.949 --> 01:08:15.289
so at some point the what i want to do with the

01:08:15.289 --> 01:08:17.489
explorer is like kind of change it so that it

01:08:17.489 --> 01:08:20.770
reflects more of that than it does like total

01:08:20.770 --> 01:08:22.909
coverage total coverage is nice as well i think

01:08:22.909 --> 01:08:24.550
it's interesting so people understand just like

01:08:24.550 --> 01:08:28.340
how big the world is uh and how much work that

01:08:28.340 --> 01:08:30.359
we have ahead of us but i think that refresh

01:08:30.359 --> 01:08:32.539
i think is actually the more interesting aspect

01:08:32.539 --> 01:08:34.819
for sure and and i'm actually working on a video

01:08:34.819 --> 01:08:36.859
for mip14 i think there's a lot of misconception

01:08:36.859 --> 01:08:40.199
around how progress is calculated and the factors

01:08:40.199 --> 01:08:43.359
going into that um they see 100 think that oh

01:08:43.359 --> 01:08:46.359
it's oversaturated it's being mapped 100 every

01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:49.520
you know every single day whatever um so i think

01:08:49.520 --> 01:08:52.560
it's important to kind of break down that calculation

01:08:52.560 --> 01:08:54.760
to understand what goes into that percentage

01:08:55.630 --> 01:08:57.750
to kind of put it in perspective, like, no, this

01:08:57.750 --> 01:09:01.149
is not being overmapped yet. I mean, we're making

01:09:01.149 --> 01:09:03.189
major progress, but there's a long way to go

01:09:03.189 --> 01:09:06.289
for future contributors as well. Yeah, it's a

01:09:06.289 --> 01:09:09.289
subject I've brought up a couple times in the

01:09:09.289 --> 01:09:12.250
past, just progress. I like the idea overall.

01:09:12.569 --> 01:09:17.289
I think, you know, I alluded to or compare it

01:09:17.289 --> 01:09:20.989
to, you know, we're all taxed as a nation except

01:09:20.989 --> 01:09:26.239
certain large metropolitan areas. typically take

01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:29.460
you know more than their fair share of what's

01:09:29.460 --> 01:09:33.140
what they distribute into the system they get

01:09:33.140 --> 01:09:35.279
they get out more than their fair share most

01:09:35.279 --> 01:09:38.920
of the time whereas that is just an overall governance

01:09:38.920 --> 01:09:42.840
problem but this looks to solve it by making

01:09:42.840 --> 01:09:45.899
that and taking into account how much work is

01:09:45.899 --> 01:09:49.720
done in any given area through that the weights

01:09:49.720 --> 01:09:53.729
and the multipliers but when you Put in front

01:09:53.729 --> 01:09:56.890
of someone the word progress. It just says, OK,

01:09:56.989 --> 01:10:00.350
that these locations that are maxed out, there's

01:10:00.350 --> 01:10:04.550
really no. You know, there's more of incentive

01:10:04.550 --> 01:10:08.270
to keep mapping in that specific area. This is

01:10:08.270 --> 01:10:11.310
their thought process, more incentive to map

01:10:11.310 --> 01:10:14.609
in an area that's already maxed out and then

01:10:14.609 --> 01:10:16.850
get even more rewards. Why would anyone want

01:10:16.850 --> 01:10:21.159
to map? the smaller locations or those that don't

01:10:21.159 --> 01:10:24.239
have that progress and it's totally inverse of

01:10:24.239 --> 01:10:27.460
the what's trying to be accomplished so just

01:10:27.460 --> 01:10:30.340
that word by itself progress i think could be

01:10:30.340 --> 01:10:34.060
done away with for something else yeah no i think

01:10:34.060 --> 01:10:36.500
that's a good point joe um i had thought about

01:10:36.500 --> 01:10:38.760
that specific word and some of the complications

01:10:38.760 --> 01:10:40.319
with it i think that's a fair it's a really good

01:10:40.319 --> 01:10:42.399
point i'm curious to know you mentioned in some

01:10:42.399 --> 01:10:44.670
amas that you would working on some proof of

01:10:44.670 --> 01:10:47.869
concepts with notable companies or ones the community

01:10:47.869 --> 01:10:49.949
will recognize i think you've said it on twitter

01:10:49.949 --> 01:10:54.329
as well um are you closing in on any large contracts

01:10:54.329 --> 01:10:57.649
with these people um some of those are closed

01:10:57.649 --> 01:10:59.689
right some of those ones that we started last

01:10:59.689 --> 01:11:02.149
year that they've closed and now they're kind

01:11:02.149 --> 01:11:06.229
of moving to like a you know quarterly uh and

01:11:06.229 --> 01:11:08.670
now annual spend with some of those customers

01:11:08.670 --> 01:11:11.380
for sure um I mean, for some of the customers

01:11:11.380 --> 01:11:13.260
that we've now been working with for a while,

01:11:13.399 --> 01:11:15.359
what we're trying to do is like move them from

01:11:15.359 --> 01:11:17.920
like, okay, like I put down like whatever, 20,

01:11:18.100 --> 01:11:21.340
30, 50 ,000 bucks for like a proof of concept

01:11:21.340 --> 01:11:24.779
to, okay, now I'm spending, you know, half a

01:11:24.779 --> 01:11:26.439
million dollars a year, a million dollars a year.

01:11:26.539 --> 01:11:29.180
There's like an annual recurring, you know, contract

01:11:29.180 --> 01:11:31.880
contract, contractual element to that. So that's

01:11:31.880 --> 01:11:33.220
a lot of the work that's happening right now

01:11:33.220 --> 01:11:35.619
from some of the, from some of the top tier customers

01:11:35.619 --> 01:11:40.159
for sure. you know my sense in terms of like

01:11:40.159 --> 01:11:43.359
announcing this kind of stuff is is i'm not like

01:11:43.359 --> 01:11:45.439
a big fan of it in terms of like announcing the

01:11:45.439 --> 01:11:49.520
name specifically um because like i don't know

01:11:49.520 --> 01:11:51.020
like why tell our competitors like who we're

01:11:51.020 --> 01:11:54.140
working with kind of thing i mean maybe we'll

01:11:54.140 --> 01:11:55.680
do it like in a couple years when there's like

01:11:55.680 --> 01:11:57.760
a lot more customers and like we're a lot more

01:11:57.760 --> 01:11:59.300
mature and all that kind of stuff but like for

01:11:59.300 --> 01:12:01.340
right now i just kind of view it as like a little

01:12:01.340 --> 01:12:04.100
bit of a distraction um and then it kind of just

01:12:04.100 --> 01:12:06.260
opens us up in terms of you know telling our

01:12:06.260 --> 01:12:08.239
customers who sorry our competitors who we're

01:12:08.239 --> 01:12:13.000
working with um so there's still you know the

01:12:13.000 --> 01:12:14.899
the big thing that we're seeing right now is

01:12:14.899 --> 01:12:16.600
that we're seeing customers come in the door

01:12:16.600 --> 01:12:20.159
and then they're very like the conversion rate

01:12:20.159 --> 01:12:24.600
to a data eval process is very very high um which

01:12:24.600 --> 01:12:28.359
is great right uh but then the data eval process

01:12:28.359 --> 01:12:32.010
it's not uh and i know brad you're in sales so

01:12:32.010 --> 01:12:34.909
you can appreciate this um it needs to get like

01:12:34.909 --> 01:12:37.529
templatized right so you can just like turn through

01:12:37.529 --> 01:12:39.850
them move through them very very predictably

01:12:39.850 --> 01:12:43.250
and rapidly um and so that's a lot of the effort

01:12:43.250 --> 01:12:46.710
right now is like taking those data evals and

01:12:46.710 --> 01:12:50.210
you know creating a template around how they

01:12:50.210 --> 01:12:52.510
work how long they go for what actually occurs

01:12:52.510 --> 01:12:54.909
you know so that they don't kind of just drag

01:12:54.909 --> 01:12:57.920
on for you know a couple months for sure and

01:12:57.920 --> 01:13:00.760
as you guys continue to evolve and have more

01:13:00.760 --> 01:13:04.720
products to offer you can probably grow your

01:13:04.720 --> 01:13:06.840
revenue streams with some of these existing customers

01:13:06.840 --> 01:13:09.359
as well and it'll make it easier to get in with

01:13:09.359 --> 01:13:12.039
some of their competitors i would think yeah

01:13:12.039 --> 01:13:15.359
so that is a that is a really really good point

01:13:15.359 --> 01:13:16.899
that's an excellent point like if you look right

01:13:16.899 --> 01:13:20.199
now like i would argue we you know the data products

01:13:20.199 --> 01:13:23.460
that we have right now speak to a relatively

01:13:23.460 --> 01:13:26.039
small percentage of the overall market what we

01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:28.460
hear time and time again i think this was a question

01:13:28.460 --> 01:13:32.159
you guys had is they want like one level up right

01:13:32.159 --> 01:13:33.979
in terms of data products and stuff like that

01:13:33.979 --> 01:13:35.960
and so that's a lot of the effort that we're

01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:38.020
doing right now is like you know addition to

01:13:38.020 --> 01:13:40.819
the b which is really high priority it's you

01:13:40.819 --> 01:13:45.250
know uh improving the map ai processing engine

01:13:45.250 --> 01:13:48.890
to start building data products like one level

01:13:48.890 --> 01:13:52.369
up um so that the customers you know there are

01:13:52.369 --> 01:13:53.689
definitely customers that want to go like you

01:13:53.689 --> 01:13:56.850
know super super granular like i want like x

01:13:56.850 --> 01:13:58.930
speed limit sign or i want this or that right

01:13:58.930 --> 01:14:01.229
that layer of the map there's other customers

01:14:01.229 --> 01:14:05.090
they want like a higher level um and so that

01:14:05.090 --> 01:14:07.829
there's a lot of work to be able to offer that

01:14:07.829 --> 01:14:09.789
but that is definitely what we that that you

01:14:09.789 --> 01:14:13.020
know Brad, to your point, not only helps with

01:14:13.020 --> 01:14:15.520
our existing customers in terms of adopting new

01:14:15.520 --> 01:14:17.819
products, but there's a set of customers right

01:14:17.819 --> 01:14:21.500
now that we obviously know them, we talk to them,

01:14:21.520 --> 01:14:24.859
et cetera, but they're not technically sophisticated

01:14:24.859 --> 01:14:28.300
enough to be able to consume all of the types

01:14:28.300 --> 01:14:30.560
of products that we have right now. Do you have

01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:34.319
any specific goals for revenue or customers in

01:14:34.319 --> 01:14:37.439
2024 looking into 2025? Yeah, I definitely have

01:14:37.439 --> 01:14:40.720
goals. I'm not going to share them in terms of

01:14:40.720 --> 01:14:43.460
on the revenue side. I think the more important

01:14:43.460 --> 01:14:48.199
thing from a customer perspective is that we,

01:14:48.340 --> 01:14:51.079
kind of like what I was referring to before,

01:14:51.180 --> 01:14:53.899
is like we build out a system where we can move

01:14:53.899 --> 01:14:56.880
customers from one phase to the other. And we

01:14:56.880 --> 01:14:59.899
can do that, you know, nine times out of 10,

01:15:00.140 --> 01:15:02.739
it's going to work. Like that process, that engine,

01:15:02.880 --> 01:15:05.399
that sales and marketing motion is going to work.

01:15:05.850 --> 01:15:08.609
like to me i think that's the bigger you know

01:15:08.609 --> 01:15:11.689
more so than a specific revenue number i want

01:15:11.689 --> 01:15:14.449
to like see that thing working and working very

01:15:14.449 --> 01:15:18.289
consistently um throughout the the entire organization

01:15:18.289 --> 01:15:20.949
because then that tells me is like okay i can

01:15:20.949 --> 01:15:23.510
add more sales people right i can add more marketing

01:15:23.510 --> 01:15:26.550
people if i see that core engine the system working

01:15:26.550 --> 01:15:28.949
if you can bring in customers today which we've

01:15:28.949 --> 01:15:32.590
shown we can but then like the process is disjointed

01:15:33.199 --> 01:15:36.020
Right. And like the tooling that we don't that

01:15:36.020 --> 01:15:38.779
we that we are lacking in terms of helping customers,

01:15:38.939 --> 01:15:41.039
you know, go through that data eval is not very

01:15:41.039 --> 01:15:43.819
mature. Then all of those data evals are going

01:15:43.819 --> 01:15:46.340
to take a lot longer. Right. All that type of

01:15:46.340 --> 01:15:48.899
stuff that I was telling you before. So that's

01:15:48.899 --> 01:15:50.680
the thing that we're that we're focused on this

01:15:50.680 --> 01:15:53.340
year is like, how do we, you know, create that

01:15:53.340 --> 01:15:55.739
sales and marketing motion that just works and

01:15:55.739 --> 01:15:58.220
works, you know, 90 percent of the time. Awesome.

01:15:58.590 --> 01:16:00.810
I love it, man. I think because I know you're

01:16:00.810 --> 01:16:03.029
focused on the hardware side and the data collection

01:16:03.029 --> 01:16:05.189
side, which is super important, but equally as

01:16:05.189 --> 01:16:07.109
important as the revenue. I think a lot of people

01:16:07.109 --> 01:16:09.149
in the community, especially in these deep end

01:16:09.149 --> 01:16:12.170
projects, lose sight of the revenue aspect of

01:16:12.170 --> 01:16:16.710
it because, I mean, frankly, if there's not revenue

01:16:16.710 --> 01:16:19.909
and not a product to be sold, then none of the

01:16:19.909 --> 01:16:22.350
collection of data matters at all, right? So

01:16:22.350 --> 01:16:26.489
you need both ends of it. you know i i try in

01:16:26.489 --> 01:16:29.069
my videos i know we all do to try to like you

01:16:29.069 --> 01:16:33.449
know stress that point because um deep in so

01:16:33.449 --> 01:16:35.729
far has been really good at showing you can get

01:16:35.729 --> 01:16:38.770
a lot of participation the next step that needs

01:16:38.770 --> 01:16:40.810
to happen is really the revenue side i love that

01:16:40.810 --> 01:16:42.869
the token burn is going to have visibility into

01:16:42.869 --> 01:16:45.050
the revenue coming into the project as well so

01:16:45.050 --> 01:16:47.710
um i think you know you all are definitely focused

01:16:47.710 --> 01:16:49.949
on the right things i appreciate it i appreciate

01:16:49.949 --> 01:16:52.960
it yeah have you seen any interest in the scout

01:16:52.960 --> 01:16:56.159
product along with the bursts from your your

01:16:56.159 --> 01:17:00.000
customers so far yeah so so scout scout uh it's

01:17:00.000 --> 01:17:02.060
funny actually like commercial real estate and

01:17:02.060 --> 01:17:04.039
real estate agents are using that thing a lot

01:17:04.039 --> 01:17:06.500
it's pretty cool actually like and they use it

01:17:06.500 --> 01:17:07.979
totally self -service right they're not they're

01:17:07.979 --> 01:17:10.420
not going to spend a lot you know to be able

01:17:10.420 --> 01:17:13.279
to like you know warrant us putting like a salesperson

01:17:13.279 --> 01:17:16.750
on it but they use it self -service and it's

01:17:16.750 --> 01:17:18.970
kind of cool like there's actually somebody in

01:17:18.970 --> 01:17:21.810
texas who like literally like every week they

01:17:21.810 --> 01:17:23.649
just like hit the buy button hit the buy button

01:17:23.649 --> 01:17:28.010
um and so uh and i don't even know who they are

01:17:28.010 --> 01:17:32.210
um so no it's really cool to see like the scout

01:17:32.210 --> 01:17:34.989
product work and the other way we use it is in

01:17:34.989 --> 01:17:38.689
those data evals with customers right so we would

01:17:38.689 --> 01:17:40.350
you know for like higher end customers who can

01:17:40.350 --> 01:17:42.909
spend a lot with us They want to see, okay, what's

01:17:42.909 --> 01:17:44.289
the quality of data? Okay, what's the quality

01:17:44.289 --> 01:17:45.689
of coverage? What's the quality of freshness?

01:17:45.829 --> 01:17:48.409
And so the way that we actually show that to

01:17:48.409 --> 01:17:51.050
them is through using the Scout interface, right?

01:17:51.109 --> 01:17:53.189
So before they go to the API side, which takes

01:17:53.189 --> 01:17:55.529
obviously a little bit more time from an implementation

01:17:55.529 --> 01:17:58.850
perspective, we use the Scout and we use it quite

01:17:58.850 --> 01:18:02.539
aggressively. So what we'll do there just to

01:18:02.539 --> 01:18:04.020
give people a little bit more color into that

01:18:04.020 --> 01:18:06.359
is like, we'll say, okay, like give us 50 locations

01:18:06.359 --> 01:18:08.199
or give us a thousand locations or give us whatever

01:18:08.199 --> 01:18:10.979
75 locations. I mean, we try to cap it at some

01:18:10.979 --> 01:18:13.279
reasonable number and then we say, okay, like

01:18:13.279 --> 01:18:14.859
how many times a week do you want to see this

01:18:14.859 --> 01:18:17.819
location? Right. Boom. Right. Okay. What map

01:18:17.819 --> 01:18:20.140
features do you want to see at these given locations?

01:18:20.279 --> 01:18:21.880
Do you want to be, you know, term restriction

01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:23.579
signs? You want to see speed limit signs. You

01:18:23.579 --> 01:18:24.699
want to see the number of traffic lights that

01:18:24.699 --> 01:18:26.890
we've detected, all that kind of stuff. so that's

01:18:26.890 --> 01:18:28.710
kind of like the other big thing that we're going

01:18:28.710 --> 01:18:30.609
to be working on is like surfacing some of that

01:18:30.609 --> 01:18:32.989
stuff up through scout yeah it certainly is something

01:18:32.989 --> 01:18:36.069
that i'm interested in demoing and doing a couple

01:18:36.069 --> 01:18:39.130
youtube videos on i think getting that out to

01:18:39.130 --> 01:18:41.489
like there's people in the community that say

01:18:41.489 --> 01:18:44.189
here's a project i'm really interested in i'm

01:18:44.189 --> 01:18:47.829
participating i'm a host i'm contributing i have

01:18:47.829 --> 01:18:50.949
a fleet but like maybe i could sell this as a

01:18:50.949 --> 01:18:54.130
business on the side but how would i go about

01:18:54.130 --> 01:18:56.430
doing that and that's something i'm interested

01:18:56.430 --> 01:18:59.130
in exploring as you know a community content

01:18:59.130 --> 01:19:04.470
contributor just giving people the tools to uh

01:19:04.470 --> 01:19:08.090
bring that to you know maybe local municipalities

01:19:08.090 --> 01:19:13.569
any sort of development or uh potential customers

01:19:13.569 --> 01:19:17.149
for them to you know they make their uh side

01:19:17.149 --> 01:19:19.869
hustle doing participating these kinds of projects

01:19:19.869 --> 01:19:22.329
as we've seen from some of these other projects

01:19:22.329 --> 01:19:25.250
like helium there was always someone building

01:19:25.250 --> 01:19:29.850
iot devices for business solutions i think that's

01:19:29.850 --> 01:19:34.310
a path to explore yeah yeah no that that definitely

01:19:34.310 --> 01:19:36.670
should happen and it will happen uh you know

01:19:36.670 --> 01:19:40.270
we're also seeing like we're not primarily focused

01:19:40.270 --> 01:19:42.869
on this market but it's cool right that it's

01:19:42.869 --> 01:19:44.550
like happening just kind of organically there's

01:19:44.550 --> 01:19:46.989
a gaming company that wants to kind of create

01:19:46.989 --> 01:19:49.130
these like virtual real worlds and so they're

01:19:49.130 --> 01:19:50.949
trying to use you know high mapper for that kind

01:19:50.949 --> 01:19:53.460
of stuff so it's kind of cool to see Yeah, once

01:19:53.460 --> 01:19:56.220
you build the tools, and we're obviously, like

01:19:56.220 --> 01:19:57.840
we've talked about, very focused on navigation,

01:19:58.119 --> 01:19:59.640
like how do you move products and people from

01:19:59.640 --> 01:20:02.279
point A to point B? But just inevitably, like

01:20:02.279 --> 01:20:04.039
the tools that you create will also be useful

01:20:04.039 --> 01:20:06.640
for other, you know, use cases and other verticals,

01:20:06.640 --> 01:20:08.260
which is awesome, right? And so I think like

01:20:08.260 --> 01:20:10.380
municipalities being one of them, games being

01:20:10.380 --> 01:20:13.199
another. So there's a whole bunch of other kind

01:20:13.199 --> 01:20:15.899
of verticals beyond just navigation that our

01:20:15.899 --> 01:20:18.119
tools will definitely be used for at some point.

01:20:19.050 --> 01:20:21.590
I'm curious to know, are there any other projects

01:20:21.590 --> 01:20:23.329
in the crypto space that you're looking for,

01:20:23.329 --> 01:20:25.810
for collaborations or partnerships? I know with

01:20:25.810 --> 01:20:27.890
you guys being on the Solana blockchain, it really

01:20:27.890 --> 01:20:30.289
opens up the door because there's a lot of other

01:20:30.289 --> 01:20:32.810
Deepin projects on Solana. You could have potential

01:20:32.810 --> 01:20:36.250
integration. I know Helium Mobile is on Solana.

01:20:36.350 --> 01:20:40.090
But if that's not, I mean, I don't want to limit

01:20:40.090 --> 01:20:42.050
it just to Solana because there's other great

01:20:42.050 --> 01:20:45.649
projects on Polygon. Are you looking at any companies

01:20:45.649 --> 01:20:49.689
or any projects like that? What's Polygon? Never

01:20:49.689 --> 01:21:00.470
heard of it. I'm joking. I'm joking. All of a

01:21:00.470 --> 01:21:02.369
sudden, I'm going to become religious about L1

01:21:02.369 --> 01:21:09.810
blockchains. I can't go there. Yes, there are.

01:21:10.930 --> 01:21:12.989
Let's see. Helium Mobile is obviously interesting

01:21:12.989 --> 01:21:16.409
to us for the B. We're trying to figure out if

01:21:16.409 --> 01:21:18.890
we can make it work. um and so i think there's

01:21:18.890 --> 01:21:21.770
still some challenges there uh both our side

01:21:21.770 --> 01:21:24.210
as well as their side so we're working towards

01:21:24.210 --> 01:21:26.729
it hopefully we can make it work but it ultimately

01:21:26.729 --> 01:21:29.689
has to make sense right in terms of in terms

01:21:29.689 --> 01:21:31.189
of business in terms of product on their end

01:21:31.189 --> 01:21:35.789
and our end etc um we're we're looking to make

01:21:35.789 --> 01:21:38.050
a hire actually right now for basically like

01:21:38.050 --> 01:21:41.130
all this stuff right like on the on the b for

01:21:41.130 --> 01:21:43.289
certification with all the different carriers

01:21:43.289 --> 01:21:47.439
etc because that is a process So hopefully we'll

01:21:47.439 --> 01:21:49.859
be able to share more news on this. I know a

01:21:49.859 --> 01:21:51.600
lot of people are eager to hear about the LT

01:21:51.600 --> 01:21:53.180
and the cellular and all that kind of stuff.

01:21:53.619 --> 01:21:55.439
And I know, Joe, you've been really helpful in

01:21:55.439 --> 01:21:57.159
terms of starting to put together some content

01:21:57.159 --> 01:22:04.180
on that. There's another project that we're working

01:22:04.180 --> 01:22:06.939
towards, not ready to make an announcement yet,

01:22:07.079 --> 01:22:10.220
but we're working towards kind of like a hackathon

01:22:10.220 --> 01:22:16.159
where, how do I say this? There are some parts

01:22:16.159 --> 01:22:17.939
of HiveMapper that they can use, and there are

01:22:17.939 --> 01:22:21.199
some parts of this other project that they want

01:22:21.199 --> 01:22:23.260
HiveMapper for. And so there's this hackathon

01:22:23.260 --> 01:22:25.539
that we're working towards kind of doing at a

01:22:25.539 --> 01:22:28.359
big conference, an AI -focused conference that's

01:22:28.359 --> 01:22:31.119
coming up. And so I think that's going to be

01:22:31.119 --> 01:22:35.060
exciting. So stay tuned for that one. Love it.

01:22:35.319 --> 01:22:37.899
Thanks. Great. You know, you did talk a little

01:22:37.899 --> 01:22:40.800
bit about Layer 1. Is there anything you want

01:22:40.800 --> 01:22:43.939
to elaborate on there, Solana? Hivemapper is

01:22:43.939 --> 01:22:45.479
going to become a layer one. I'm joking. I'm

01:22:45.479 --> 01:22:52.819
joking. No. Everyone's trying to become a layer

01:22:52.819 --> 01:22:55.020
one or a layer two. I just think it's kind of

01:22:55.020 --> 01:22:58.060
funny and interesting. The number of times that

01:22:58.060 --> 01:23:00.460
I get pitched on infrastructure type of stuff

01:23:00.460 --> 01:23:03.880
and crypto is really high. Somebody trying to

01:23:03.880 --> 01:23:06.000
sell us their stuff. And I'm like, that is not

01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:11.260
the issue. We are not gated because of lack of

01:23:11.260 --> 01:23:14.819
crypto infrastructure. And I think they're very

01:23:14.819 --> 01:23:16.260
disappointed to hear that, but it's just the

01:23:16.260 --> 01:23:18.000
truth, right? It's like, okay, well, what is

01:23:18.000 --> 01:23:21.579
actually gating our growth? That's not it. But

01:23:21.579 --> 01:23:23.140
no, I think, look, Solana's definitely had their

01:23:23.140 --> 01:23:24.720
challenges over the last three or four weeks,

01:23:24.779 --> 01:23:26.119
but those guys are professionals and they'll

01:23:26.119 --> 01:23:28.359
figure it out. I can't wait to see all the speculation

01:23:28.359 --> 01:23:30.340
and conspiracy theories about you becoming a

01:23:30.340 --> 01:23:33.039
layer one now. I know, I know, I know. I know,

01:23:33.140 --> 01:23:34.539
I should have said that. I'm sure someone will

01:23:34.539 --> 01:23:36.939
clip it. Yeah, someone will clip it. And I was

01:23:36.939 --> 01:23:43.409
like, oh, crap. Well, Ariel, thank you for being

01:23:43.409 --> 01:23:45.869
here it's been a tremendous interview we enjoy

01:23:45.869 --> 01:23:48.590
all the insight any last words from anyone well

01:23:48.590 --> 01:23:51.149
i i really appreciate what you guys are doing

01:23:51.149 --> 01:23:54.050
right i think like educating folks who are coming

01:23:54.050 --> 01:23:57.310
into the community um who are potentially considering

01:23:57.310 --> 01:24:00.489
coming into the community as well as those that

01:24:00.489 --> 01:24:02.550
are in the community i think that you guys have

01:24:02.550 --> 01:24:05.130
done just a tremendous job you know educating

01:24:05.130 --> 01:24:07.810
folks and keeping people level -headed right

01:24:07.810 --> 01:24:11.439
in terms of you know these are If your expectations

01:24:11.439 --> 01:24:15.079
are over here, check those at the door because

01:24:15.079 --> 01:24:19.920
kind of here's what's going on. And yeah, I think

01:24:19.920 --> 01:24:23.800
that over the long term, if we keep that kind

01:24:23.800 --> 01:24:27.220
of culture, that type of mentality, I think that'll

01:24:27.220 --> 01:24:29.720
be really healthy for the overall ecosystem that

01:24:29.720 --> 01:24:31.859
we're building here. I really appreciate those

01:24:31.859 --> 01:24:35.399
words. It means a lot to us, but we enjoy doing

01:24:35.399 --> 01:24:39.600
it. It's been a lot of fun for the most part.

01:24:41.400 --> 01:24:43.600
it has been fun i'm expanding my fleet i'm up

01:24:43.600 --> 01:24:46.060
like 80 now i'm closing in on 100 here pretty

01:24:46.060 --> 01:24:48.819
soon so it's been uh making some progress there

01:24:48.819 --> 01:24:51.960
but uh yeah man i think we're i think things

01:24:51.960 --> 01:24:53.779
are moving in the right direction revenue is

01:24:53.779 --> 01:24:55.579
coming through the door participation is increasing

01:24:55.579 --> 01:24:58.140
there's gonna be some bumps in the road uh i've

01:24:58.140 --> 01:25:01.520
worked in tech startups and like like if you

01:25:01.520 --> 01:25:03.199
have to be able to roll with the punches a little

01:25:03.199 --> 01:25:05.819
bit um you know people coming into this they

01:25:05.819 --> 01:25:08.220
think it's going to be like you know apple that's

01:25:08.220 --> 01:25:11.020
solidified that that's not the case like there's

01:25:11.020 --> 01:25:13.439
going to be some some ups and downs but i think

01:25:13.439 --> 01:25:15.600
overall man we've seen some really good progress

01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:19.140
but i appreciate the feedback by the way yeah

01:25:19.140 --> 01:25:21.100
no definitely i think like you know hopefully

01:25:21.100 --> 01:25:23.560
every community has folks like you guys around

01:25:23.560 --> 01:25:25.720
it kind of helping educate the folks you know

01:25:25.720 --> 01:25:28.640
root them in the reality of like you said like

01:25:28.640 --> 01:25:30.720
you know there's the ups and the downs associated

01:25:30.720 --> 01:25:33.539
with these projects and i think people have to

01:25:33.539 --> 01:25:35.720
go in that with eyes wide open right it's like

01:25:35.720 --> 01:25:37.840
you're you're a builder right and you're you're

01:25:37.840 --> 01:25:40.079
participating and you're helping build this thing

01:25:40.079 --> 01:25:45.100
um and if if that if that excites you you know

01:25:45.100 --> 01:25:48.039
then that's awesome right if that doesn't excite

01:25:48.039 --> 01:25:51.180
you then maybe this project isn't for you uh

01:25:51.180 --> 01:25:55.479
and i don't know like go do a meme coin or something

01:25:55.479 --> 01:25:57.279
like that right it's not very like at the end

01:25:57.279 --> 01:25:59.779
of the day it's not very satisfying right like

01:25:59.779 --> 01:26:01.600
a meme coin if you make a couple bucks off of

01:26:01.600 --> 01:26:04.140
a meme coin like i don't think it added anything

01:26:04.140 --> 01:26:06.640
to the world it did it didn't add anything to

01:26:06.640 --> 01:26:10.020
the world quite frankly um and but i think what

01:26:10.020 --> 01:26:12.279
we're building here you know i think we can look

01:26:12.279 --> 01:26:14.840
back on 10 years from now 15 years from now and

01:26:14.840 --> 01:26:19.000
be like holy crap we built a new fundamental

01:26:19.000 --> 01:26:21.920
map that is used by billions of people all over

01:26:21.920 --> 01:26:24.979
this world and we were the early builders of

01:26:24.979 --> 01:26:28.000
that i think that that's I think that's very

01:26:28.000 --> 01:26:30.779
satisfying on a professional level and a personal

01:26:30.779 --> 01:26:33.539
level. Agreed. Except I think dog with hat is

01:26:33.539 --> 01:26:38.880
going to save the world, obviously. There you

01:26:38.880 --> 01:26:42.619
go. Ladies and gentlemen in the audience, appreciate

01:26:42.619 --> 01:26:45.020
you being here and sticking with us as always.

01:26:45.460 --> 01:26:49.779
Every other Sunday here on Brad's channel, Deep

01:26:49.779 --> 01:26:54.520
in Connection. Brad, Chris, thank you for contributing

01:26:54.520 --> 01:26:57.510
as always, even though it's Brad's show. and

01:26:57.510 --> 01:27:00.350
ariel thank you for being here we've really enjoyed

01:27:00.350 --> 01:27:02.789
it thank you guys thank you thank you