(bright music)

- Hello and thank you for tuning in

to "Connections & Directions",

our University of Michigan's

Civil and Environmental
Engineering podcast.

My name is Michelle Santillan

and I am the CEE marketing
communications specialist

and host of this series.

During our podcasts,

we are featuring members
of our CEE community

and how their work reflects our mission

of engineers and service to society.

We will be highlighting
our strategic directions

and our commitment to diversity,
equity, and inclusion.

CEE's five strategic directions
are human habitat experience

shaping resource flows,
adaptation, automation,

and smart infrastructure finance.

CEE is here today with
Professor Nancy Love,

who is the JoAnn Silverstein

distinguished University professor

and Borchardt and Glysson
Collegiate professor for CEE.

Professor Love has her
bachelor's in master's degrees

from the University of
Illinois at Urbana Champaign

and her PhD

in Environmental Systems
Engineering from Clemson.

Thank you for joining us
today, professor Love.

- Thank you for having me.

- Please share with our
listeners some details

about your research area and goals

and how they align with
CEE's strategic directions

and our mission of engineers
and service to society.

- Sure.

Well, I'm one of those
who spans a lot of areas

and I like to work at interfaces.

I don't tend to work in one little area

and so I'm gonna largely
touch on every area

of the strategic directions.

But my group generally is
focused on understanding

how engineering, design and
operation of water systems

influence sustainability
and influence equity

and equitable access to
healthy water services.

In that work,

I really have kind of two
threads that intersperse

between sustainability
and equitable access.

I mentioned the engineering design,

and so a lot of our work there

on both drinking water and wastewater side

is looking at how population
changes historically

and those that are coming,
so with climate change,

there's expectations of climate migration,

change population densities

in different living spaces,
cities, rural, et cetera.

And here in the upper Midwest,

we have a history of population decline

in many of our cities, the
Rust Belt, the industrial base.

And when we built to
our water infrastructure

in these cities, we built for growth

when we teach our classes,
we teach the students

if you look in the textbooks,

it's all about growing populations.

We need to design for adaptation

and that's not been part of
our kind of design mindset,

if you will.

And so we see the consequences
of design for growth

when the population declines.

So that side of my work focuses currently

mostly on the drinking water side,

where we see that in cities

where you have declining populations,

you actually don't have kind
of comparable water quality

in all parts of the city.

Our mindset and our kind of mantra

is that when we treat water
and it leaves the true implant,

that our system is designed to distribute

the same water quality to everybody,

but we don't necessarily see that.

And we have some parts of
the city where you have

water that's been in the
pipes for a very long time.

I focus with my collaborators
on how the water quality

changes from a chemical and a
microbiological perspective.

And we have data to show that
we believe that people who are

in parts of the city where
the water's been in pipes

for a long time are at
a higher risk of illness

from some contamination events.

I focus more on the microbiology,

but I work with collaborators
like Professor Alex T Chow

who works at disinfection byproducts.

And that these risks are
inequitable because oftentimes

the individuals living in
those parts of the cities

are our poorest community members,

oftentimes they are underrepresented

minority community members

and so there are kind of
social dynamics associated

with this and justice
elements associated with this.

So we have a science element,

but we also do it in the
context of working with

in partnership with community members.

The other side of my work
then focuses on resources

and resource efficiency

and the inefficiency of resource flows

through our urban spaces in particular.

And as you know, I've focused

on nitrogen, phosphor
and potassium primarily,

and how we capture those nutrients
in a more sustainable way

and repurpose them either
for commodity products

or as fertilizers to then offset

conventional fertilizer production.

So those are really where my work is,

and I do that both in a domestic setting

and in a global setting.

- And that said,

how did you become interested
in your area of study?

Was there a course that you took

or did you have a personal
experience perhaps

in your time in school
that led you to focus

on this area of research?

- You know, I'm at a point in my career

where it's like an evolution
(laughs) over time,

but maybe I'll start by saying

how I got into environmental
engineering in the first place.

I was one of those high school students

who started writing letters to
colleges as like a sophomore

trying to figure out
what the next step was.

But I grew up in a family
business where my family

managed golf courses.

And my father and later my brothers,

my sister and I didn't
work on the golf course,

but they were part of
maintaining the grass

and using pesticides and herbicides

and all kinds of things that
I knew just couldn't possibly

be good for the environment

and then the human exposure
of some of those chemicals.

So I originally, when I was in high school

I thought I wanted to do something natural

and with nature and I wanted

to develop sustainable golf courses,

which actually is an area of interest now,

but it wasn't when I was going to college.

So that when I started
reading the Thompson's Guide

and how, you know, what
should you major in,

that's when I discovered
environmental engineering

and I realized that that
was the closest thing.

And so then I went to the
University of Illinois

in civil engineering,

which is where environmental
engineering sits.

And I ended up being a
cooperative education student.

So that means I was gone
every other semester working

and I worked for both a
coal mining organization

in Southern Illinois who, you know,

there's a lot of
environmental consequences

of service mining of coal.

And they discontinued their co-op program.

And then I moved to a
co-op job with the US Navy

in Southern Indiana,

which is a interesting
thing to think about

of the Navy in Southern Indiana

'cause there's no ocean there. (laughs)

That was a fabulous job.

I got to do a ton of stuff
and it was on at the Crane

what was called at the time

the Crane Naval Weapons Support Center.

And they manufactured artillery

and different types of things

for both the army and the Navy.

But there were a lot of
environmental consequences

of those processes.

And I was environmental monitoring.

I was the person who went
around and found the explosives

in the biosolids in the sludge

and figured out who was dumping
the different heavy metals

down the sewer and things of that nature.

And it was great.

And so that was kinda how I got into it

and that was how I stayed in it.

And then I worked in
consulting for a few years

and developed a lot of
connections in practice

and really appreciated the practice,

but always wanted to go back and teach.

So that's kinda how I
ended up where I am now.

And then in terms of
these areas, I, you know,

when I started as a professor,

most of the funding was going down

towards what's called Superfund.

It was the subsurface remediation
contamination of fact.

I was, when I worked

at the Crane Naval Weapons Sports Center,

it was in 1982 and that was
ground zero of Superfund.

I was there when the US Army
Corps of Engineers came in

and we were, look, I
had one of my jobs was

to look at the plane flyovers to see

where they had dug earth and to figure out

where they had buried the mustard gas

and the TCE and different things

that were produced during
outcomes of World War II.

And so we were putting in wells

to try to find the
groundwater contamination.

So when I came out and I
started as a professor,

most of the funding
environmental engineering

was related to people working
in the subsurface groundwater.

I had always worked in treatment plants

so I decided to stay
with the treatment plants

where everybody else was
going over to the subsurface.

And that ended up working out for me

because there weren't a lot of people

who were making that
decision at that time.

And if you look at it today, you know,

Superfund is still around,

but you know, we're in a lot
of different areas right now

as an environmental
engineering profession.

And I decided to follow my passion

and that's what I always
recommend to new faculty

and students who are going out

just follow what really
interests you most.

Don't go to wherever the
people think you should be,

go to where you think
you should be. (laughs)

- And that said, as this has evolved,

you've gotten involved with
things such as P for the Peonies

and many of the other research areas

that you're involved with.

Can you talk a little bit

about the next P for
the Peonies for example?

- Oh yeah.

So P for the Peonies

is about our resource efficiency program.

It's about thinking about
how nitrogen and phosphorus

and potassium cycle
through our communities.

And the University of Michigan has

the North America's largest
cultivar of peonies.

It's beautiful.

If anybody hasn't been
there, you should go in June.

And a lot of people visit.

And so we saw that as an
opportunity to talk about

nutrient flows through communities.

And it just exposed people
to the idea of recycling

the circular economy and
recycling those nutrients

in our cities.

And it turns out peonies benefit from,

in their early growth phases,

phosphorus or potassium
to have more flowers

and fewer green leaves.

So that's where that came from.

And we've been out in the
gardens for a couple years now.

We're gonna be out
there again this summer,

perhaps with a little less work involved

'cause we've done a lot of
counting of peony flowers

and things like that,

but we really like the
outreach to the community.

So what that links to is my work

outside of the university walls.

So really since I started

as an assistant professor
and through today,

I've always found ways for
my graduate students for sure

as many undergraduates as possible

to work on projects that send them outside

of the university walls, if you will.

So they're working in a utility,
they're working with a city

within a community, something like that.

And so, you know, my whole
career I've been doing that.

I would say in the last 15 years

when I started doing work
internationally as well.

And in doing international work in low

and middle income countries,

really low income countries,
Ethiopia, you know,

there's a cultural competency training

that one has to go through
and really understanding

their privilege and how to appropriately

partner and interact with
people in other cultures.

So I really started to
develop, I'd always done that,

not knowing it, like in
the wastewater utilities

with my students because
they would have to go

onto a wastewater site
and work with operators

who didn't have the same
benefits and privileges

as the students had.

And so I always spent time
making sure that they understood

that the wastewater utility
was their, not the students,

but it was the operators and
the staff who worked there

was their space, their place,
you have to respect them

and they have a lot to offer,
they have a lot of knowledge

that you will benefit
from really listening.

And it turns out all those
kind of key core things

are part of cultural competency training.

And then Flint happened.

And when Flint happened,

I got pulled in because
of work that I was doing

around point of use filters,

which were being deployed
at a very high rate

in the Flint community because
of the lead contamination.

And I knew that if you
don't deploy them correctly,

you can actually have
biological contamination.

So it was necessary to
develop some best practices

and get that out to the
community as best as possible.

And so between the
National Science Foundation

and somebody who connected me

through to the mayor of the city,

we got permission to kinda
do some work in the city

with the point of use filters.

And that's grown into a much bigger thing

in my partnership with the City Flint.

And I remain today a member

of their water system advisory council.

And I work with the
Flint community schools,

with partners in the community

on their water quality in the buildings,

and really taking that
culture competency training

and bringing it into domestic
applications with students.

There's a lot of interest by the students.

And our research now has moved to actually

doing that kind of work as
part of research projects

where we have community
liaisons who become partners

and, you know, they're
paid members of our team,

they're co-authors on our papers,

really using these methods.

So that's kind of a methodological element

that we bring to the research
around sustainability

and equitable access to water services.

- And those are excellent examples of DEI

that you've just been
talking about, you know,

especially the social and
environmental justice component

and the cultural competency.

Are there additional ways
that you bring diversity,

equity, and inclusion into
your research and courses?

- Yes so, you know,

in addition to trying to
recruit diverse student body,

I just, this semester in CCE 465

which is our junior level
water wastewater design class,

for the first time we did a
collection of case studies

as a kind of a special side
project for student teams.

We chose nine case studies
and those case studies

were all about water system failures

in places or in context

where there was a social
or environmental justice

element to it.

And the students not only had to,

it wasn't just about
the technology they had,

most of the project was about
actually learning the history

of how they got there,

really appreciating the
kind of the humanities side

of their education.

What was the history and
what is the power map?

So they had to develop
power maps of players.

Who made decisions when, how, why?

Who were allies to
equitable decision making

and who were barriers to that?

And then by giving them
kind of a couple of papers

and kind of information

about the kind of pillars of
equitable community engagement,

you know, I had them suggest like,

how do you bring all these
different players to the table

so that you can have the voices

that often are not heard, you know, heard

and become part of the
technology solutions

that you think might be
the best option here?

So it was an exploration

of these nine different case studies.

Then we did like a little
digital poster session in class

with food and stuff.

And I think I hope that
what comes from this

is some of these case studies
can be de deeper dives

in future years or for other classes.

Yeah, it was a fun,

but it was also a way to help
the students recognize that,

you know, we do need to
have technical competency,

but that is insufficient to the
entire concept of, you know,

sustainable and equitable
engineering design.

- Absolutely.

And what is the most exciting
aspect of your job and why?

- There are a lot of them.

I mean, I, you know, it's also
evolved over time, you know,

as you go through your career.

And so where I'm at today,

I feel like all my students

who are doing research for instance,

are really working at intersections.

We work with people across campus.

I just finished a sabbatical

with the Center for Social Solutions

and I'm still working with
them and I'm, you know,

doing work on workforce
development and the water field

and equity and decision makers

and things that feel like

they're very outside of engineering,

but they very much are
affected by engineering.

So I love working at those interfaces

and that my students in their research

are actually diving in and
working on research questions

that go well beyond the research lab.

So that's one aspect.

I also am really enjoying like
the case studies in CEE 465

and exploring ways to, I'm
always tinkering with my classes.

It's one of these things
that I have to stop doing

because it's more work. (laughs)

And I promised myself
don't create new content,

but the case studies ended up being,

I think, a really nice addition.

The students seem to enjoy it.

So, you know, I'm enjoying
exploring different ways

in the classroom to bring
in these DEI concepts

that go beyond just the words
that actually, you know,

really make the students think and develop

maybe a different way of
understanding their role

as engineers and their
privilege as engineers.

So yeah those are fun.

And I think we always have
to rediscover ourselves

through our careers.

And so that's my kind of current space.

- And by your saying that,

it made me think of another question

and that is,

how have you seen
environmental engineering

evolve over these years?

I know you mentioned about
how it started in 1982,

very focused on Superfund and
more of a remediation aspect.

What are some other changes
that you've witnessed,

either personally through your profession

or just in general in the profession?

- Yeah, you know, environmental
engineering is a discipline

that is by its nature intersectional.

It hasn't always historically
I think functioned that way,

but I think it is
increasingly recognizing that.

So it's engineering,

but it always brings in natural sciences

from the technology standpoint.

I think the human policy social side of it

has always been there, but
it's actually starting to,

I guess get more respect in some ways.

I also think as environmental engineers,

we have to recognize that
we can't be all things.

And myself, as an environmental engineer,

the way I address these kind
of larger complex elements,

all the things we've talked
about, I collaborate a lot.

I collaborate with humanists.

I collaborate with people
who are historians.

I also collaborate with
chemists and scientists

and people in policy and economics.

And so I think part of it
is that we need to develop

comprehensive, diverse
teams and not just become,

you know, the portal for all knowledge.

And I think we're seeing more of that,

I guess, within the discipline

although I think it's always
at risk of individuals

feeling like they have
to become the expert

at all these things.

I think that's a mistake.

And it's kind of tricky.

So I'm at a later point in
my career where, you know,

it's easy for me to collaborate across

and not worry so much about
who gets credit for what,

for a new incoming assistant professor

or for graduate student
who's gonna leave and go work

in the field or in either
academia or practice.

They have to establish themself.

And so there's a hesitancy

to be maybe heavily collaborative.

And I wish there were more space for that

because I actually think
that the foundation

that somebody will develop their career on

is gonna be more solid if they develop

those collaborations from the beginning.

So, yeah.

- And is there a general
message you would like to convey

to our U of M CEE audience?

Is there anything that
you would like to address

that I have not asked about?

- I guess I didn't talk a lot

about the strategic directions,

but if you've listened to
what this is, you know,

we've recently changed the names of them,

human habitat experience,

which I think the work I do
fits in shaping resource flows,

which clearly we work in adaptation.

I think about climate
migration and how that affects

infrastructure works, automation
and data-driven innovation,

I haven't talked about,

but we're doing actually
quite a bit in that space

working with MIDAS,

the Michigan Institute for Data Sciences

because again, they're the
experts and they can bring,

we have big data sometimes
and working together,

we can understand our systems better

and come up with control schemes

that are more efficient and
energy efficient, so forth.

So from the standpoint of what others see

the strategic directions
for the department,

I think really build the whole student.

And I'm particularly proud of this

because the first strategic
directions happened

when I was chair,

and it was kind of a pivot
point for the department

to really see how we function as a unit

and not as kind of individual
divisions, if you will.

And so we've been building
upon those strategic directions

now through multiple chairs,

and I'm really happy to
see the legacy longevity

of that concept.

We don't use the word strategic plan

because those strategic
plans can sit on shelves

and no one looks at 'em,

but a strategic direction
is living and it's evolving.

And that's exactly what's happening here.

So I'm particularly happy
to see that continue

and to see other colleagues step in

and take the leadership
and really keep it going.

And I think students who
come into a department

that really does that kind
of deep thinking process

and leadership in the field, if you will,

will be in a really good space.

So yeah.

- Thank you for joining us today.

(bright music)

Thank you for listening to
our podcast conversation.

For more information
about CEE at Michigan,

please visit our website at cee.umich.edu.

You can also reach our
YouTube channel and Facebook,

Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn
pages from our website.