(upbeat music)

- [Michele] Hello, and
thank you for tuning in

to Connections & Directions,

our University of Michigan's

Civil and Environmental
Engineering podcast.

My name is Michele Santillan,

and I am the CEE Marketing
Communications Specialist

and host of this series.

During our podcasts,

we are featuring members
of our CEE community

and how their work reflects our mission

of engineers in service to society.

We will be highlighting
our strategic directions

and our commitment to diversity,
equity, and inclusion.

CEE's five strategic directions

are human habitat experience,
shaping resource flows,

adaptation, automation, and
smart infrastructure finance.

Our guest for this podcast
is Professor Sherif El-Tawil.

He received his BS and MS
degrees from Cairo University

and his PhD from Cornell University.

Professor El-Tawil's
main research interest

is in natural and manmade
hazard mitigation,

for example, due to
earthquake's, blast, and impact.

He has a broad portfolio in convergent

and multidisciplinary research

that addresses how structural

and more generally infrastructure systems

respond to extreme events.

Professor El-Tawil has conducted research

in structural failure,
human decision making,

social interactions during extreme events,

and the use of agent-based
models for egress simulations.

Much of his research is directed

toward the computational
and theoretical aspects

of hazards engineering.

Professor El-Tawil, thank
you for joining us today.

- [Sherif] It's great to be here.

- [Michele] Please
share with our listeners

some details about your
research area and goals

and how they align with
CEE's strategic directions

and our mission of engineers
in service to society.

- [Sherif] Well, I would
think of my research

as disaster engineering,

and what we try to do in my research group

is to mitigate the effect of these events

that we know will happen,

either due to a manmade action
or due to natural events.

We've seen in the news what is happening

in terms of the various natural
events that are becoming

or appearing to become more
severe due to climate change.

We also know that there's a
lot of turmoil around the world

that is also leading to some
of these manmade disasters.

So in both cases, our objective
is to manage the outcome

of the disaster itself to
minimize death and injury

and destruction to property.

- [Michele] Is there a specific example

in recent weeks or recent
months where you could cite,

this is an example of something

that we're really trying to mitigate?

- [Sherif] So I would think
of some of the hurricanes

that are happening now with regularity

that appear, like for example,
Puerto Rico has lost power

over the entire island just yesterday

or the day before yesterday.

Also Pakistan, a third of
the country has flooded,

and what happens with these events

and what we try to look at
are the cascading interactions

that happen between the
infrastructure systems of society.

So when you lose power, the
power affects the water systems,

and the water systems also
affect the electrical system

because that is sometimes used

for cooling electrical equipment,

and the flooding affects
the transportation system

and it affects, for example,

the use of emergency capabilities
when those are needed.

So all of these things interact together,

and we spend a lot of
time trying to understand

how to model the
relationship between them.

- [Michele] And can you
cite a specific example

in your own research
where you have gone in

and assisted with mitigation
efforts in recent times?

- [Sherif] We have not because
that is usually the realm

of specialized people who are embedded

in some of these response teams.

So I've thought about it over the years

to participate in one of those teams,

but I have not taken steps to do that.

So for example, there
are, I think, I believe,

I don't wanna cite the number,

but there are a number of large teams

that go out from the US to disaster areas

to help with situations that are beyond

some of the capabilities
of local governments.

One of, or several of these
teams are very specialized

in earthquake engineering,

which is one of my areas of research.

But again, these teams are kind of like,

they train on a regular basis,

and a lot of the members of those teams

are not only structural engineers,

but also firefighters and police.

And, like I said, I've thought about it,

but I have never taken
a step to do so so far.

- [Michele] And how did
you become interested

in your area of study?

Was there a course you took

or a specific personal experience you had

that led you to explore
this topic in depth?

- [Sheriff] So I would say
that, you know, by training,

I'm a structural engineer,
but over the years,

my research has really
evolved to disaster management

and disaster engineering at
the infrastructure level.

In the past, for example, for my PhD,

I used to focus on structural components

and how they would respond to impact

or local extreme forces,
but now I look at the effect

of a disaster at the
city level, for example,

and how a building might collapse,

how that might affect
the roadway next to it

and how that affects the
transportation system

and how all these things cascade

with respect to one another.

I think there's one component
that I haven't mentioned

that I'm really interested in
which motivates a lot of this,

and that is the effect on
people, the human component.

And so I think of these systems
as sociotechnical systems,

and one of my most interesting

and exciting projects pertained to a fire

that happened in Rhode Island.

It was called the Station nightclub fire.

It is well known.

There were 400 people in a nightclub.

There was a pyrotechnic event,

and the fire went so fast,
it happened so quickly

that about 100 people died in 90 seconds.

And so what was the decision
making that they made?

How did they egress from
a situation like that?

So the interaction of the
people within the environment

they're in, seeing the smoke
and fire coming towards them

was one of the projects that I worked

actually quite a bit on.

And that work was done
with a social scientist

and I learned a lot from him.

And the issues pertaining
to leader-follower behavior.

If you don't know information,
do you follow leader?

Does a leader know that
there are followers?

And if you have loved ones
close to you, what do you do?

Do you go to them or do you escape?

Those are dramatic and very sad decisions

that people have to make.

And one of the most, I think,
interesting things to me

that I found from my research aside from,

I don't wanna dwell on how sad it is,

but people who are in larger
groups and they have loved ones

have a much higher chance
of actually succumbing

than people who are independent

or able to take action quickly.

And so that eventually
blossomed into my research

on how the various infrastructure
systems interact together,

and I consider people to be part of that

in their human decision,

the human decision making
as part of a disaster

is one of the things that
we do consider in our work.

So that's the origin of why
I'm interested in these systems

and the interactions
that happen between them.

- [Michele] And really,
the human decision making

can make a difference
as to whether someone

successfully escapes
that type of situation,

or as you said,--
- Of course.

- [Michele] Sadly succumbs.

- Of course.
- So.

- [Sherif] And you know,

the other thing too is knowledge as well.

So people who tended to
know the layout a little bit

were among the first people out.

When you're in a big unfamiliar place

and it's dark and it's
smokey and people around you

don't know what they're doing,
and you do not know either,

that's when things become quite dangerous.

- [Michele] And with
regard to your background

and what you've studied,
how are you parlaying that

into any courses that you might
be teaching this semester,

and do you have ideas
for additional courses

in this area down the road?

- [Sherif] Yes, so I'm teaching

right now structural analysis.

This is one of my
favorite courses to teach.

This is the first course where students

start to feel what engineering is.

They don't really do design,

but they understand why
we're doing the analysis

for the purposes of design.

So this is a really cool class,

and I think students enjoy it

and I enjoy teaching it, as well.

So any infrastructure component
is made up of structures,

and all these structures are the ones

that are impacted when a hazard occurs.

Other classes that I've taught
that are perhaps related

to the research area
that I'm talking about

is the finite element class.

That tells me how a structural
system that is, say,

impacted by a truck or if there is fire

or if there's an earthquake,

how that responds under those
extreme loading effects.

I've also taught the
earthquake engineering class

in the past and I've also
taught design classes,

but I think the main ones really

are the finite element class
and how structures respond

under extreme loading conditions.

- [Michele] Have you looked at 9/11

and what happened to
the World Trade Center

in light of all of the research

that you've been doing, as
well as human responses?

- [Sherif] Yes, so that
is a really good question

and I think that's probably worth

a whole interview by itself.

But 9/11 of course was the genesis

of a lot of research on what
we call progressive collapse.

And I was one of the first
people to work in this area,

the progressive collapse
area, 'cause I, again,

that was one of the events again

that inspired me to
look in this direction,

and others too, of course.

So I wasn't directly involved
in the 9/11, the event itself,

like modeling how the structure collapsed,

but in how we design our buildings

to prevent what we call
progressive collapse.

Now, let me define that.

Progressive collapse is
when a structural system

collapses completely
when you lose one member.

When you have a small amount of damage

causing a lot of damage,

leading to the collapse
of the entire building,

that's what we call progressive collapse.

Thankfully this is rare

and it has happened very recently, though,

in Florida with the Miami buildings.

Again, that is a very classic case

where what appears from the
videos to be a local collapse

due to corrosion led to the collapse

of the entire building and
the death of 100 people

who were actually in their beds.

So the 9/11 event inspired
a lot of my research

in the progressive collapse region

and really got me interested
in the extreme loading events,

which eventually led to some
of my other research areas

on, okay, if it's not blast or
impact or earthquake or fire,

there are other things like
the hurricanes, and again,

that got broader with terms when I look

at the different types of
infrastructure systems.

- [Michele] And how do you
incorporate diversity, equity,

and inclusion in your
research, in your courses?

- [Sherif] So not all, I never
thought about this before

until I've recently figured
it out, but as civil engineers

and civil environmental engineers,

we are extremely influential
in how diversity, equity,

and inclusion is considered
within our communities.

So for example, you're making the decision

to build a new bridge.

Where is it going to go?

It's easier to put it next

to a resource constrained community

than in the middle of an
of an affluent community,

but by doing so, what you've done

is that you've assured
for many years to come

the people there will
have a lot of traffic,

they will have a lot of pollution,

and that propagates their problems

and causes you to get into a vicious cycle

where the resources are constrained,

you have things that are making it harder

for you to go to your job
and therefore your resources

become even more constrained.

And it seems that that happens also

in terms of your
maintenance of structures.

Communities like these will
have lower and worse maintenance

of their infrastructure than
more affluent communities.

Again, it propagates the idea that,

okay, if your roads and bridges are bad,

then you cannot conduct
your business as well

and it's just a vicious
cycle that keeps going.

And so that realization
over the past few years

has forced me and interested me

to consider some of those
issues within my research.

And it is, disasters tend to strike people

who are not as fortunate as others

in terms of being wealthy enough,

and again, that's something
that we do look at

carefully within our research, as well.

- [Michele] And it's harder to rebound

from a disaster financially.

- Of course.
- When you're already--

- Yes.
- Not in a solid

financial situation.

- [Sherif] Yes, and so not
only are you hit harder,

but it is harder for you to
recover, exactly as you said.

Its a double whammy.

- [Michele] What aspect,
I know we've talked a lot

about some of the sadder aspects

of what you do in some of
the situations that occur,

but what aspect of your job,

I should say,
(Sherif laughs)

brings you the most joy?

- [Sherif] Yes, I think
that the most joy in my job

is interacting with students.

I mean, students have so much
energy at all the levels,

undergraduate and graduate.

The stimulation of the
ideas I get from them

is really what makes
this job so interesting

and why I would keep coming
day in over day to hear.

I think just the innovation that I see,

plus the feelings that people
are so excited to learn,

those are the two things that
really influence me the most.

I think that at some level,

I feel that I'm doing
something really important.

When we understand how
a structure collapses

and eventually that work gets codified

into building specifications
and save future people

from the same plight that,

the plight that people in the past had,

that's when I also feel
a lot of satisfaction,

that we can change the
outcome of disasters

that happened in the past
by better understanding

how they led to the
situation that happened,

so that is another big deal
that pertains to my job.

- [Michele] So touching on that, in a way,

California has made their
building codes stricter,

I'm sure due to research
from people such as yourself,

and are there any other
positive results like that

that you might be able
to cite specifically?

- [Sherif] Yes, so some of
my work right now focuses

on how trucks, when they lose
control and they hit a barrier

and then they're redirected into traffic,

the design of that barrier is something

that very recently me and my
group have been looking at.

And I think that also influences safety

because bringing a truck
back and making sure

that it is able to, if
it breaches the barrier,

it goes into the other
lane, the incoming lane,

and can cause a lot of damage.

So that work is also eventually
going to make its way

into the specifications for bridge design,

and that's another thing that
I'm very proud of as well.

- [Michele] Is there anything
that you would like to add?

- [Sherif] I would like to add

that as civil and environmental engineers,

we are very aware that
the world is changing,

and because of that we
know that adaptation

is one of our most important priorities.

There will always be disasters,

there will always be
challenges, but human ingenuity

and civil environmental
engineering ingenuity

in particular is going
to be able to solve that

into the future, I have no doubt of that.

(uplifting music)

- [Michele] Thank you

for listening to our podcast conversation.

For more information
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