WEBVTT 00:00:00.630 --> 00:00:02.589 Well, good morning. I already said my name is 00:00:02.589 --> 00:00:04.370 Greg. I'm one of the pastors here. If we've never 00:00:04.370 --> 00:00:07.110 met before, I would love the chance to meet you. 00:00:07.150 --> 00:00:09.609 There's going to be a QR code at the end of the 00:00:09.609 --> 00:00:11.750 service. There's also one on every one of the 00:00:11.750 --> 00:00:14.570 tables if you want to put your camera at that 00:00:14.570 --> 00:00:17.710 and fill out that connection card and just put 00:00:17.710 --> 00:00:19.089 that you'd like to meet with the pastor. We'll 00:00:19.089 --> 00:00:22.269 make sure to connect. We are in the fifth and 00:00:22.269 --> 00:00:25.550 final week of our series that's called Imago 00:00:25.550 --> 00:00:29.719 Dei. And as our panelists come on up, you guys 00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:31.780 can come up now and find a seat. I'll just sit 00:00:31.780 --> 00:00:35.259 here on the end, but you guys can decide who 00:00:35.259 --> 00:00:37.420 wants to sit where in the other three. As our 00:00:37.420 --> 00:00:39.219 panelists come up, we have a primer that we have 00:00:39.219 --> 00:00:42.079 been reading at the top of each of our panel 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:46.119 discussions as a way of setting the stage. The 00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:49.079 scriptures tell us that from the beginning, we 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:51.859 were created in the image of God, and so we bear 00:00:51.859 --> 00:00:57.259 the likeness of our creator every single day. 00:00:57.149 --> 00:01:00.369 One of us. This is why for many years now our 00:01:00.369 --> 00:01:02.909 church website has said we welcome all persons 00:01:02.909 --> 00:01:06.170 and have no leadership limitations based on race, 00:01:06.310 --> 00:01:09.150 gender, identity, sexual orientation, or physical 00:01:09.150 --> 00:01:12.689 ability for those who confess Jesus Christ as 00:01:12.689 --> 00:01:16.849 Lord because the central standard is Jesus. But 00:01:16.849 --> 00:01:18.469 because of how the Bible has been interpreted 00:01:18.469 --> 00:01:21.250 over the centuries, the church has often either 00:01:21.250 --> 00:01:24.739 implicitly or explicitly communicated that we 00:01:24.739 --> 00:01:29.459 don't all bear the image of God equally. Women 00:01:29.459 --> 00:01:32.379 have been left out or excluded from leadership 00:01:32.379 --> 00:01:35.099 in the church historic. Gay, lesbian, trans, 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:37.739 and queer folk have been promised they can belong 00:01:37.739 --> 00:01:40.640 so long as they fit in. People with differently 00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:43.920 abled bodies have often been excluded or treated 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:48.579 less than because of their physicality. And non 00:01:48.579 --> 00:01:50.959 -white cultures and ethnic groups have often 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:53.319 been treated like they're only here to help the 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:57.239 quote -unquote real image bearers. It sounds 00:01:57.239 --> 00:01:59.980 ugly because it is. It doesn't sound like Jesus 00:01:59.980 --> 00:02:03.379 because it isn't. And so our panel discussion 00:02:03.379 --> 00:02:07.780 during this series, they're meant to be a kind 00:02:07.780 --> 00:02:12.500 of promise, not to perfection or to utopia, and 00:02:12.500 --> 00:02:16.180 we aren't expecting full agreement about absolutely... 00:02:16.650 --> 00:02:19.370 everything from everyone in the room. But these 00:02:19.370 --> 00:02:21.610 conversations are a kind of promise that we are 00:02:21.610 --> 00:02:25.050 working and learning to be a community that is 00:02:25.050 --> 00:02:28.310 safe for people that have been pushed to the 00:02:28.310 --> 00:02:32.090 margins. People of color, women, the disabled, 00:02:32.349 --> 00:02:35.810 and the LGBTQ plus person. Because we were all 00:02:35.810 --> 00:02:39.569 created in the image of God and no one should 00:02:39.569 --> 00:02:43.580 be left out. So as we discuss what it means for 00:02:43.580 --> 00:02:46.159 us to bear the image of God in the church and 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:47.979 in the world, and for the church to be a safe 00:02:47.979 --> 00:02:50.039 place for us to grow in the likeness of Jesus 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:52.120 and the fullness of what God has created us to 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:55.560 be, will you please welcome our panel for today. 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:10.759 The lights can be a little bright to the uninitiated. 00:03:10.819 --> 00:03:13.539 So I'm putting this here. If you guys want anything, 00:03:13.819 --> 00:03:16.080 I have another. I'm going to pull out. I realized 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:18.979 that it's nice to have something that us on the 00:03:18.979 --> 00:03:21.960 panel can put our drinks on. So I just thought, 00:03:22.020 --> 00:03:24.340 you know what? I'll pull these out, and you can 00:03:24.340 --> 00:03:26.460 move those around however you like, whatever 00:03:26.460 --> 00:03:32.360 makes sense for you. And then I will plop myself 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:37.969 up on this. Do you mind each of you just introducing 00:03:37.969 --> 00:03:42.370 yourself to your church family? Hi, y 'all. My 00:03:42.370 --> 00:03:45.949 name is Destiny. I'm Bradley. And I'm Kathy. 00:03:47.270 --> 00:03:52.930 All right. Let's see. So throughout this series, 00:03:53.069 --> 00:03:55.789 we have been using the same questions for each 00:03:55.789 --> 00:03:59.129 panel, just changing them slightly so that it 00:03:59.129 --> 00:04:01.349 makes sense for the people that we're chatting 00:04:01.349 --> 00:04:03.990 with today. And so as you feel comfortable, I 00:04:03.990 --> 00:04:07.509 wanted to just ask what... What was your introduction 00:04:07.509 --> 00:04:11.050 to God and or church and how did you initially 00:04:11.050 --> 00:04:13.889 get connected to God and church? If you don't 00:04:13.889 --> 00:04:17.990 mind, we'll just go straight down. So my mom 00:04:17.990 --> 00:04:21.490 grew up Catholic and my dad grew up. I forgot 00:04:21.490 --> 00:04:24.209 what denomination, honestly, but he was forced 00:04:24.209 --> 00:04:26.850 in a church and he said that my. Papaw would 00:04:26.850 --> 00:04:28.829 always poke him in the leg with a pencil if he 00:04:28.829 --> 00:04:33.410 was falling asleep. So we went to a few services, 00:04:33.529 --> 00:04:36.529 but my parents inevitably let me pick my own 00:04:36.529 --> 00:04:40.490 adventure with Jesus and stuff. So I started 00:04:40.490 --> 00:04:44.110 going to a church back in my hometown from Rochelle, 00:04:44.209 --> 00:04:47.129 Illinois, and I started going to Sunday school, 00:04:47.250 --> 00:04:50.490 started going in the worship band and all that. 00:04:50.589 --> 00:04:54.250 So just really found my own path with Jesus. 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:59.819 I also grew up in the church. My parents were 00:04:59.819 --> 00:05:02.139 both very active in the church. I was very active 00:05:02.139 --> 00:05:06.620 in my home church growing up. I went to a Christian 00:05:06.620 --> 00:05:10.920 undergrad and have pretty much always attended, 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:14.360 though I have changed where I've gone and what 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:17.139 specific denominations and flavors I've gone 00:05:17.139 --> 00:05:22.129 to. Yeah, so I had a mom who was Catholic and 00:05:22.129 --> 00:05:24.129 a dad who was from the Church of Christ. And 00:05:24.129 --> 00:05:26.209 so when they got married, they went, where do 00:05:26.209 --> 00:05:30.490 we go? So they didn't go anywhere until my sisters 00:05:30.490 --> 00:05:32.410 and I were invited to a vacation Bible school. 00:05:32.750 --> 00:05:35.209 And then we started attending that very conservative 00:05:35.209 --> 00:05:38.370 church. We stayed there until we were asked to 00:05:38.370 --> 00:05:40.629 leave. And then we attended a different conservative 00:05:40.629 --> 00:05:43.089 church. And so I've moved around from place to 00:05:43.089 --> 00:05:46.480 place. over time, but have chosen different kinds 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:48.660 of churches since I have been old enough to make 00:05:48.660 --> 00:05:51.620 that decision myself. So if you feel comfortable 00:05:51.620 --> 00:05:55.199 sharing, because it's not always obvious to everyone 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:57.759 that we know or that meets us, how do you personally 00:05:57.759 --> 00:05:59.939 identify, and with that in mind, have you found 00:05:59.939 --> 00:06:02.620 it difficult or natural to accept who you are 00:06:02.620 --> 00:06:09.540 or how you were made? Start anywhere. I self 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:16.949 -identify as gay, homosexual, whatever. It was 00:06:16.949 --> 00:06:23.189 certainly not easy to affirm who I was, to accept 00:06:23.189 --> 00:06:25.709 that within the church. Like I said, I had always 00:06:25.709 --> 00:06:28.290 grown up in the church, and I grew up specifically 00:06:28.290 --> 00:06:33.949 in very conservative churches until my adulthood, 00:06:34.110 --> 00:06:38.529 mid -20s. And so it took a long time for me to 00:06:38.529 --> 00:06:44.689 sort of combine the two aspects. in my life, 00:06:44.829 --> 00:06:48.730 and that actually happened while I was in undergrad 00:06:48.730 --> 00:06:53.069 at a conservative Christian school, but in sort 00:06:53.069 --> 00:06:55.250 of a more progressive bubble that allowed me 00:06:55.250 --> 00:07:00.730 to go on that journey for myself and find my 00:07:00.730 --> 00:07:04.230 personal relationship with God and my personal 00:07:04.230 --> 00:07:09.129 relationship with the balance between my orientation 00:07:09.129 --> 00:07:14.180 and attractions and my faith. Now it seems so 00:07:14.180 --> 00:07:20.240 silly. That was such a hard journey for so long. 00:07:21.899 --> 00:07:27.759 But yeah, it was a long journey. I would say 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:33.420 I probably knew that something was different, 00:07:33.500 --> 00:07:34.959 though I didn't necessarily have the language. 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:38.600 From the time I was very little, I probably was 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:40.980 able to put a label on it when I was in high 00:07:40.980 --> 00:07:43.860 school. wouldn't even let myself think about 00:07:43.860 --> 00:07:50.220 it or explore that until I was in college. But 00:07:50.220 --> 00:07:57.060 yeah. Sure. So I am a cisgender woman who is 00:07:57.060 --> 00:08:01.980 asexual. About 1 .7 % of the population is asexual. 00:08:02.060 --> 00:08:05.220 So we are people who do not experience desire 00:08:05.220 --> 00:08:07.759 for physical intimacy, we'll say, since it's 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:12.139 a mixed -age room. So for me, it was an interesting 00:08:12.139 --> 00:08:14.220 experience growing up because there was no option 00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:18.259 but straight, heterosexual. And I didn't even 00:08:18.259 --> 00:08:20.800 learn that asexuality was a thing until I was 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:25.040 in my 30s. So it's my newest identity. So I'm 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:27.660 still working some things out there. But it was 00:08:27.660 --> 00:08:30.220 really hard growing up because, especially in 00:08:30.220 --> 00:08:32.059 the teenage years where everyone's thinking about 00:08:32.059 --> 00:08:38.299 other people, I was like... why are we spending 00:08:38.299 --> 00:08:40.179 so much time talking about this? This doesn't 00:08:40.179 --> 00:08:42.840 make any sense to me. So we'd have weeks where 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:44.879 we would do purity stuff, and you'd sign the 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:46.759 cards, and I'd be like, is everybody really having 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:51.159 a problem with this? I don't understand why we 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:53.120 spend so much time talking about this. There 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:54.820 are so many other interesting things we could 00:08:54.820 --> 00:08:58.960 be talking about. And so it lends itself to a 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:02.200 lot of interesting relationship dynamics, but 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:05.100 the expectation for me was always... that I would 00:09:05.100 --> 00:09:07.340 get married and have kids, and that I was going 00:09:07.340 --> 00:09:09.580 to be the first of my sisters to do that. My 00:09:09.580 --> 00:09:11.600 mom got married the day after she turned 20. 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:15.580 That was supposed to be what happened for me, 00:09:15.620 --> 00:09:18.299 and I am now in my 40s and unmarried, the only 00:09:18.299 --> 00:09:19.919 one of my sisters who has never been married, 00:09:20.019 --> 00:09:21.519 and the only one of my sisters who has never 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:25.059 had kids. And that was not what was supposed 00:09:25.059 --> 00:09:27.759 to happen, and that's not what I was supposed 00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:30.759 to be. I grew up in a church where... women grow 00:09:30.759 --> 00:09:32.379 up they get married they have babies and they 00:09:32.379 --> 00:09:35.360 raise them and so i have done none of those things 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:38.360 and that has made life very interesting in terms 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:43.559 of my church attendance and then i identify as 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:48.419 non -binary so they them pronouns and pansexual 00:09:48.419 --> 00:09:54.419 um so i Had a really hard time accepting myself 00:09:54.419 --> 00:09:57.320 because we grow up in a community where you want 00:09:57.320 --> 00:09:59.879 to check a box right you want to label what you 00:09:59.879 --> 00:10:03.279 are and I was just talking to Jake about this 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:06.639 earlier and saying how I Couldn't find the words 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:10.139 to figure out when I had fallen for my first 00:10:10.139 --> 00:10:15.179 female and you know then that that really complicated 00:10:15.179 --> 00:10:18.110 things in my mind too because oh my gosh, does 00:10:18.110 --> 00:10:19.809 this mean God's not going to love me anymore? 00:10:20.289 --> 00:10:22.389 You know, does this make me unholy? Does this 00:10:22.389 --> 00:10:25.549 make me not belong? So it was really, really 00:10:25.549 --> 00:10:29.450 hard. But the more that I've grown with my faith, 00:10:29.490 --> 00:10:32.230 I feel like I finally have found a church home 00:10:32.230 --> 00:10:35.870 that affirms who I am and is graciously still 00:10:35.870 --> 00:10:38.090 wanting to take the fruits of my labor, right? 00:10:38.210 --> 00:10:42.029 Like other churches, I know I've been a part 00:10:42.029 --> 00:10:43.789 of boards that it's time, talent, and treasure. 00:10:44.569 --> 00:10:47.750 And other churches are great to take your talent 00:10:47.750 --> 00:10:52.610 sometimes if you fit the box. They're always 00:10:52.610 --> 00:10:54.529 willing to take your treasure, that's for sure. 00:10:54.610 --> 00:10:57.889 But here, it's totally the opposite, and we can 00:10:57.889 --> 00:11:02.529 really be who we are. First of all, thank you 00:11:02.529 --> 00:11:05.169 for being so vulnerable. I think that this is 00:11:05.169 --> 00:11:09.190 something that, for at least one person on the 00:11:09.190 --> 00:11:13.129 panel, I said, hey, I'm willing to not stream 00:11:13.129 --> 00:11:17.470 this. If you would prefer that. Because it's 00:11:17.470 --> 00:11:19.750 an extremely vulnerable thing that they're doing. 00:11:20.110 --> 00:11:22.830 And so just thank you very much for being so 00:11:22.830 --> 00:11:26.350 vulnerable about this. And so I just wanted to 00:11:26.350 --> 00:11:29.409 ask what we've asked everyone else. What do you 00:11:29.409 --> 00:11:32.429 think God feels about you? And has that changed 00:11:32.429 --> 00:11:39.250 over time? I'll go first. I think God loves me. 00:11:39.850 --> 00:11:44.259 In my journey, I think... It doesn't matter who 00:11:44.259 --> 00:11:46.600 I've loved, who I'm going to love in my future, 00:11:46.740 --> 00:11:49.559 whether that's romantic, friendship, platonic, 00:11:49.700 --> 00:11:53.659 you know. I just know that God is a good God 00:11:53.659 --> 00:11:56.480 and I wouldn't be made to be just condemned to 00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:03.279 hell. So I think God loves me for who I am. Yeah, 00:12:03.379 --> 00:12:07.539 I think very similarly. I think, not to like 00:12:07.539 --> 00:12:11.200 jump questions or weave questions together, but 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:13.940 I'm... And I know that this passage has been 00:12:13.940 --> 00:12:17.139 brought up other times in this panel, but I think 00:12:17.139 --> 00:12:21.659 so much about the Psalm 139, 13, and 14. I'm 00:12:21.659 --> 00:12:27.120 sorry. I'm sorry. I know it's been brought up 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:32.379 literally every week. So I'm sure you all have 00:12:32.379 --> 00:12:34.700 heard it in the last month. But for you created 00:12:34.700 --> 00:12:37.320 my inmost being, you knit me together in my mother's 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:39.679 womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:42.580 wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful. I 00:12:42.580 --> 00:12:47.399 know that full well. And I think we obviously 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:50.759 all identified with that because I think it's 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:55.519 like the most succinct thing about the like being 00:12:55.519 --> 00:13:01.159 image bearers, right? And so I like think back 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:07.940 to how different I felt Always. And I didn't 00:13:07.940 --> 00:13:10.759 know what that meant. I remember being attracted 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:12.700 to friends, but I didn't know that I was attracted 00:13:12.700 --> 00:13:15.559 to friends, even when I was very little, and 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:19.159 then in high school, and then later. And I didn't 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:21.399 have the vocabulary for that, but I can trace 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:24.580 those things back to literally being six and 00:13:24.580 --> 00:13:28.580 seven and that sort of thing. And I don't believe 00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:32.360 that God makes mistakes. And then there's also 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:37.179 so little in the Bible, about queerness anyways 00:13:37.179 --> 00:13:40.860 and those like those things that are that those 00:13:40.860 --> 00:13:44.100 passages that do talk about it so rarely are 00:13:44.100 --> 00:13:46.700 talking about love and connection and relationship 00:13:46.700 --> 00:13:49.620 they're talking about non -consensual acts they're 00:13:49.620 --> 00:13:52.019 talking about immorality they're talking about 00:13:52.019 --> 00:13:55.679 um other things and adultery like they're those 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:58.259 clobber passages if you're familiar with that 00:13:58.259 --> 00:14:02.789 term um which what an awful But, like, they're 00:14:02.789 --> 00:14:05.870 not talking about the relationship and the identity 00:14:05.870 --> 00:14:10.110 that we're talking about or that we identify 00:14:10.110 --> 00:14:13.750 as. And so I think when something is mentioned 00:14:13.750 --> 00:14:18.570 so little and also when it is mentioned isn't 00:14:18.570 --> 00:14:21.210 actually what we're talking about, like, I think 00:14:21.210 --> 00:14:24.309 it's hard to ignore us as part of that fearfully 00:14:24.309 --> 00:14:28.210 and wonderfully made that God says we all are. 00:14:30.029 --> 00:14:31.450 I think for me, it's been a little bit different 00:14:31.450 --> 00:14:34.929 just because I guess my queerness is the more 00:14:34.929 --> 00:14:37.929 church acceptable kind, right? Like people just 00:14:37.929 --> 00:14:40.289 assume that you're choosing to be celibate. That's 00:14:40.289 --> 00:14:42.769 a different thing. Like that's, this is not a 00:14:42.769 --> 00:14:45.210 choice I have made. My high school years would 00:14:45.210 --> 00:14:46.750 have been a lot easier if this were a choice. 00:14:48.190 --> 00:14:50.750 But like, I think because of that, it's been 00:14:50.750 --> 00:14:54.129 a lot less about how God thinks of me and how 00:14:54.129 --> 00:14:57.389 I understand what my place is in the church. 00:14:58.529 --> 00:15:00.429 like I've never doubted that God loved me I've 00:15:00.429 --> 00:15:01.889 never thought that I'm going to hell because 00:15:01.889 --> 00:15:05.769 of who I am but I have like growing up in that 00:15:05.769 --> 00:15:07.169 place where you were supposed to get married 00:15:07.169 --> 00:15:08.769 and have kids and raise them in the faith like 00:15:08.769 --> 00:15:12.509 that was your whole purpose for being that's 00:15:12.509 --> 00:15:14.590 the part that has had to change for me and I've 00:15:14.590 --> 00:15:18.429 had to like grow and think of differently so 00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:21.059 Riley kind of stole her thunder a little bit. 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:24.820 But I know that Kathy, you had a verse last time, 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:26.820 so I'm curious if you have one. And then I want 00:15:26.820 --> 00:15:28.759 to give you the chance to share if you have insight 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:31.279 about that particular that you want to say. But 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:32.899 is there a place that you find yourself going 00:15:32.899 --> 00:15:35.759 in the Scriptures that reminds you of what God 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:38.559 really thinks of you? And the reason we've asked 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:40.980 everyone this question is because all of us probably 00:15:40.980 --> 00:15:42.899 need a place in the Scriptures to go to remind 00:15:42.899 --> 00:15:47.399 us what God really thinks of us. Right? The world 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:49.659 is going to tell us what God thinks of us, and 00:15:49.659 --> 00:15:53.240 even sectors of Christianity will tell us, well, 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:56.000 this is what God really thinks of you. And so 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:58.899 I'm curious if either of you have a place that 00:15:58.899 --> 00:16:01.279 you go that reminds you what God really thinks 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:04.279 of you. I was thinking about this a lot. So when 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:06.159 I was on the panel for disability, I shared that 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:08.899 verse from Ecclesiastes about not being able 00:16:08.899 --> 00:16:11.500 to make straight what God has made crooked. And 00:16:11.500 --> 00:16:14.659 I think that applies here as well. In thinking 00:16:14.659 --> 00:16:18.620 about it, for me, I get more comfort in looking 00:16:18.620 --> 00:16:20.399 at the women in the Bible who weren't married 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:22.759 and had kids and did important things. So I was 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:25.879 thinking on the drive here about Rahab. She gets 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:28.139 a bad rap, but my goodness, was she really pivotal 00:16:28.139 --> 00:16:31.600 to the story in which she appears, right? So 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:34.429 just kind of thinking about... how the value 00:16:34.429 --> 00:16:38.629 of women is not necessarily tied to men in the 00:16:38.629 --> 00:16:40.990 Bible, and we don't necessarily point that out. 00:16:41.490 --> 00:16:43.970 But for me, that was something that was really 00:16:43.970 --> 00:16:47.529 helpful. Let me jump in real quick. Anyone familiar 00:16:47.529 --> 00:16:50.330 with the Dan Brown novel, The Da Vinci Code? 00:16:51.289 --> 00:16:54.690 The conspiracy, and it wasn't real, it was all 00:16:54.690 --> 00:16:57.409 fiction, but a lot of Christianity freaked out 00:16:57.409 --> 00:16:59.330 about this idea that, oh, they're saying that 00:16:59.330 --> 00:17:06.319 Jesus was married. to marry Magdalene. But there's 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:08.519 another side to that, is that it doesn't just 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:11.640 say, oh, well, Jesus was actually married. It 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.180 removes the idea that Mary Magdalene was valuable 00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:17.940 in and of herself without having to marry Jesus. 00:17:18.980 --> 00:17:22.980 That she could just be an important person in 00:17:22.980 --> 00:17:26.759 the story of Jesus without having to be married 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.920 to him. And that matters, but we are also still, 00:17:30.980 --> 00:17:34.220 not to go to last week, but we are such a male 00:17:34.220 --> 00:17:36.480 -driven culture that we're thinking more about 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:38.819 the problem of Jesus being married than we are 00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:40.759 thinking about the idea that it removes part 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:44.140 of Mary's story. So, did you want to say something? 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:49.599 No, you stole all my thunder. No, I mean, I genuinely, 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:53.460 I go to that verse just because I really do believe 00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:59.009 if this all -knowing God, that is supposed to 00:17:59.009 --> 00:18:02.089 be so good and has known me before I've been 00:18:02.089 --> 00:18:04.410 knit in my mother's womb would just create me 00:18:04.410 --> 00:18:07.569 to go to hell. I just don't think that that's 00:18:07.569 --> 00:18:09.609 a good God. So that's why that scripture stands 00:18:09.609 --> 00:18:11.809 out to me so much. So thanks for bringing it 00:18:11.809 --> 00:18:16.430 up. And this next question is also a vulnerable 00:18:16.430 --> 00:18:19.589 question. And it's not framed because on any 00:18:19.589 --> 00:18:21.990 of these panels that we're looking for us to 00:18:21.990 --> 00:18:25.130 share a story that somehow makes other churches 00:18:25.130 --> 00:18:27.980 look bad because Every church has its issues. 00:18:28.059 --> 00:18:29.660 Every church has things that they're working 00:18:29.660 --> 00:18:31.880 through and that they're growing in and learning 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:35.299 how to be healthy about. But it's also important 00:18:35.299 --> 00:18:38.940 for communities to hear about how either the 00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:42.519 church as a whole or even our church has done 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:45.160 something that's been helpful or even if there's 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:46.880 something, this is probably hurtful and it would 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:48.779 be helpful if we didn't say things this way. 00:18:48.900 --> 00:18:50.880 And so in your experience, have you felt more 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.700 othered or affirmed by Christianity or the church 00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:56.309 because of your identity? And is there a story 00:18:56.309 --> 00:18:58.670 you think would be helpful to share that goes 00:18:58.670 --> 00:19:02.950 along with that? I can jump in if that's okay, 00:19:03.049 --> 00:19:06.329 but I think just accepting people for who they 00:19:06.329 --> 00:19:10.369 are. I know that sounds so basic, but, you know, 00:19:10.410 --> 00:19:14.349 I just really think back to a church a while 00:19:14.349 --> 00:19:17.410 back that, you know, my fiancee, who is a female. 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:21.599 we thought was our new home church and stuff 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.339 because they really seemed welcoming and affirming 00:19:24.339 --> 00:19:27.460 and all that good stuff. And then the pastor 00:19:27.460 --> 00:19:29.299 turned around and said, we need to have a talk. 00:19:30.299 --> 00:19:33.380 We need to have the talk. And the pastor's wife 00:19:33.380 --> 00:19:37.680 said, this isn't a breakup. Well, you know, again, 00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:40.299 how I mentioned time, talent, and treasure, they 00:19:40.299 --> 00:19:43.900 were very easily to take my treasure that I so... 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.799 you know, heartfelt driven because it was to 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:48.859 help a kid go to church camp. And I remember 00:19:48.859 --> 00:19:51.579 that when I was a kid and how pivotal that was 00:19:51.579 --> 00:19:55.180 in my faith. And okay, but we got to make sure 00:19:55.180 --> 00:19:57.539 we're following the doctrine. You know, that's 00:19:57.539 --> 00:20:02.859 what we were told. So I just, I don't know. I 00:20:02.859 --> 00:20:05.380 mean, even if it's not your belief, you know, 00:20:05.380 --> 00:20:09.000 even if you, I don't know, even if you don't 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:13.940 agree with LGBTQ -ness. Just really just taking 00:20:13.940 --> 00:20:16.420 people for who they are is really what it comes 00:20:16.420 --> 00:20:19.220 down to at the end of the day and appreciating 00:20:19.220 --> 00:20:23.980 all of them and not just parts of them. Two things. 00:20:24.059 --> 00:20:27.160 I like that you turned it into a new word, LGBTQ 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:31.599 -ness. So if you hear me say that, it's because 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:34.039 of you. The other thing is maybe we don't all 00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:36.119 understand what you mean by treasure, but usually 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:39.019 what we mean by treasure in some churches is 00:20:39.019 --> 00:20:42.039 that, like, well, you can give money. And for 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:45.920 me, my philosophy is that when you give money 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:47.539 back to God through the local church, that's 00:20:47.539 --> 00:20:50.460 an act of worship. That's literally an act of 00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:54.740 service and trust. And so I've always felt that 00:20:54.740 --> 00:20:58.200 it's wrong for me to say, like, we'll take your 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:03.359 money, but you definitely can't be XYZ. And so 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:05.799 it creates problems. It creates this weird power 00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:07.579 dynamic where, like, oh, yeah, give us all your 00:21:07.579 --> 00:21:10.019 money. but you can't stand at the door and welcome 00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:14.039 people. And so that becomes problematic. So either 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:18.339 of you have a, have you felt more othered or 00:21:18.339 --> 00:21:20.740 affirmed by Christianity? And is there a story 00:21:20.740 --> 00:21:23.519 connected to that? Yeah, I mean, I would say 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:26.079 I felt more othered overall, and not so much 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:28.299 here, but in a lot of churches that I've been 00:21:28.299 --> 00:21:31.960 to. Either you are supposed to be a part of a 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:34.759 post -high school 20 -somethings ministry, which 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:38.690 is... truly a meat market, right? Like, M -E 00:21:38.690 --> 00:21:44.490 -E -T. Yeah. And, like, that was not a priority 00:21:44.490 --> 00:21:47.869 for me. And then, like, you know, I became an 00:21:47.869 --> 00:21:50.410 adult, and I was going to work and doing job 00:21:50.410 --> 00:21:52.750 things, and they were like, oh, you know, join 00:21:52.750 --> 00:21:54.470 the women's ministry. I'm like, okay, I'll hang 00:21:54.470 --> 00:21:57.309 out with women. Sure, why not? But every women's 00:21:57.309 --> 00:22:00.200 ministry event was about being a good wife. about 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:03.460 being a good mother, about how we have the relationship. 00:22:03.579 --> 00:22:06.160 And I'm just like, that's not my reality. I mean, 00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:08.799 I love kids. I'm very proud that I helped raise 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:12.299 my nievelings. But I also, like, I'm glad I get 00:22:12.299 --> 00:22:13.839 to give them back at the end of the day. And 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:18.019 I am happy with that. So, you know, to have every 00:22:18.019 --> 00:22:20.140 event that I'm supposed to go to to be a part 00:22:20.140 --> 00:22:23.400 of this community be related to being married 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:27.799 or being a parent, like, that just made no place 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:30.470 for me. I even went to a church once where the 00:22:30.470 --> 00:22:32.549 very first day I visited, they were like, just 00:22:32.549 --> 00:22:36.329 so you know, there's no one your age here. There 00:22:36.329 --> 00:22:42.930 were four of us. Yeah, so I think some of that... 00:22:42.930 --> 00:22:44.869 Scott, you're taking notes, right? Where's Scott? 00:22:45.109 --> 00:22:47.970 We need to add that one. When people walk through 00:22:47.970 --> 00:22:49.650 the door, make sure you tell them how many people 00:22:49.650 --> 00:22:52.230 the same age as them there are. Yeah, you know, 00:22:52.269 --> 00:22:55.869 it's a thing. So just not finding a place for 00:22:55.869 --> 00:22:59.460 people who don't... fit your standard, regardless 00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:02.720 of what that is, makes it really hard to be a 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:09.119 part of a church. Yeah, I mean, I have a story 00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:12.039 very similar to Destiny's, where I had been attending 00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:15.420 this church all through undergrad, and then I 00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:18.160 moved back to the area where my parents and my 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:23.119 school were after COVID happened. And so I started 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:25.440 attending there again and wanted to get more 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:29.859 involved. And I've been a part of worship ministries 00:23:29.859 --> 00:23:32.140 and music ministries pretty much since high school 00:23:32.140 --> 00:23:34.460 and at different churches that I had been a part 00:23:34.460 --> 00:23:36.619 of. And I was like, hey, I'm trying to get involved 00:23:36.619 --> 00:23:38.559 in this church, would love to get involved in 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:41.079 this way. I had had a great relationship with 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:46.039 both pastors, but specifically the music ministry 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:49.519 leader pastor. um that church throughout the 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:51.480 four or five years that i've been attending and 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:54.420 um said hey i'm here more long term right now 00:23:54.420 --> 00:23:57.480 would love to get involved and we had the talk 00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:01.380 you know um which was like if you don't agree 00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:04.339 with this doctrine you can't serve in a public 00:24:04.339 --> 00:24:06.759 facing way but you know you can run sound if 00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:09.559 you want you can you know those sort of things 00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:12.619 you can help out in other ways but we can't have 00:24:12.619 --> 00:24:17.819 you in a public facing position um because of 00:24:17.819 --> 00:24:21.019 how you identify. If you were saying, this is 00:24:21.019 --> 00:24:23.539 something I struggle with, I'm on a journey, 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:27.000 that would be a different story for them. But 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:30.059 that ended up, or that resulted in me leaving 00:24:30.059 --> 00:24:35.319 that church ultimately and starting looking for 00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:39.059 other churches. But yeah, then I found this one 00:24:39.059 --> 00:24:43.910 literally the first day that I moved here. felt 00:24:43.910 --> 00:24:46.470 very differently about, you know, obviously I 00:24:46.470 --> 00:24:49.069 sing today and have been for three years, but 00:24:49.069 --> 00:24:54.630 yeah, so yeah, very similar story, but yeah. 00:24:54.849 --> 00:24:58.069 So to piggyback off of that, like what does it, 00:24:58.170 --> 00:25:00.670 and maybe not even just for you, but for people 00:25:00.670 --> 00:25:03.829 that you feel like are part of the LGBTQ -ness 00:25:03.829 --> 00:25:08.750 community, what does it or would it mean for 00:25:08.750 --> 00:25:14.240 you for a church to be the safest place? For 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:19.920 those people. And for you. I mean, I think it 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:22.839 really just comes down to putting us in those 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:27.779 spots of public facing. You know, I really, really 00:25:27.779 --> 00:25:32.980 cherish that, you know, I'm able to help with 00:25:32.980 --> 00:25:35.900 the kids. I know I've been really busy lately, 00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:38.279 so this year's been really bad at that example. 00:25:38.380 --> 00:25:43.180 But, you know, I mean. Here I'm fully accepted. 00:25:43.299 --> 00:25:46.819 Like, it was no question to, you know, when I 00:25:46.819 --> 00:25:49.759 proposed to Robin, hey, I'd really love to help 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:51.880 with the kids. What do I have to do? Okay, here's 00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:55.059 some papers to fill out. Cool. You know, like, 00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:58.480 this is truly the first place that I feel like 00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:01.000 I can be myself. You know, when I'm here with 00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:03.339 my fiancé, I can say, this is my fiancé, Beth. 00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:07.599 She is great, you know, and people don't shy 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:09.980 away from it. Y 'all don't treat us any differently. 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:13.960 because we're in a same -sex, what's going to 00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:19.039 be a marriage later this year? Shameless plug. 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:27.039 I mean, I think it means, like, so much to be 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:32.259 in a place that allows that and welcomes our 00:26:32.259 --> 00:26:35.380 queerness in whatever capacity we're trying to 00:26:35.380 --> 00:26:42.799 be involved and serve. And that, like... For 00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:47.680 a long time, I felt like I'm supposed to help 00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:51.759 teach whatever people in some capacity. And for 00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:54.319 a long time, I thought that meant ministry. I 00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:56.559 thought that meant whatever. And then when my 00:26:56.559 --> 00:26:58.559 career started becoming sort of at the forefront 00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:00.819 of the thought and studying that I was doing, 00:27:00.980 --> 00:27:05.500 it was like, well, maybe I'm in an industry where 00:27:05.500 --> 00:27:08.880 there's such a high percentage of... queer people, 00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:12.740 people who have felt othered by the church in 00:27:12.740 --> 00:27:16.099 other capacities. So I was like, maybe it's to 00:27:16.099 --> 00:27:21.759 show them there is a way out of gayness in the 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:26.000 early times. But that same idea has remained 00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:32.720 the same, just flipped. Maybe I'm all of these 00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:34.700 things, and I'm in these industries, and I'm 00:27:34.700 --> 00:27:39.269 in this church, and I'm in... I am gay because 00:27:39.269 --> 00:27:44.230 I'm supposed to show people that you are not 00:27:44.230 --> 00:27:47.269 othered by God. You are welcome. You've been 00:27:47.269 --> 00:27:51.009 othered by the capital C church, not God, not 00:27:51.009 --> 00:27:56.210 individual church communities. And so it's such 00:27:56.210 --> 00:28:00.109 a blessing that I get to do that and that I get 00:28:00.109 --> 00:28:02.869 to be a public -facing Christian in an industry 00:28:02.869 --> 00:28:06.769 and in circles where that has like... the opposite 00:28:06.769 --> 00:28:09.829 connotation of what it does in the larger community 00:28:09.829 --> 00:28:13.029 and also get to be like a public facing queer 00:28:13.029 --> 00:28:18.789 Christian in a capital C church where that's 00:28:18.789 --> 00:28:22.329 not generally looked at greatly but I think it's 00:28:22.329 --> 00:28:25.529 so intentional on God's part you know that fearfully 00:28:25.529 --> 00:28:28.630 and wonderfully made and knitted together with 00:28:28.630 --> 00:28:32.390 all of these things that are so important for 00:28:32.390 --> 00:28:36.920 the like progression of this faith that has always 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:40.799 been a part of my life. I guess I'll just add 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.180 that many of us have strained relationships with 00:28:44.180 --> 00:28:50.859 our families. My parents don't know. It's not 00:28:50.859 --> 00:28:53.839 an uncommon thing for us to really struggle to 00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:57.880 be fully ourselves in the home spaces. So having 00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:00.680 a church family that will accept you as you are. 00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:05.359 and be there for you is really important. So 00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:06.839 I want to preface this next question because 00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:11.299 I think that the different experiences that we 00:29:11.299 --> 00:29:14.160 have open our eyes to what else is happening 00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:19.440 in the world. For me, I really started learning 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:24.000 how to be anti -racist because my son was in 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.940 the hospital and our tech was a black male and 00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:28.359 I was talking to him about what had happened 00:29:28.359 --> 00:29:31.130 to Michael Brown in Ferguson. And things that 00:29:31.130 --> 00:29:34.470 he was saying was causing me to see, like, we 00:29:34.470 --> 00:29:37.289 were experiencing an affliction. And I was talking 00:29:37.289 --> 00:29:39.029 to him about an affliction that was happening 00:29:39.029 --> 00:29:41.890 to his community and people that looked like 00:29:41.890 --> 00:29:45.250 him. And just having an affliction that I was 00:29:45.250 --> 00:29:48.029 experiencing had opened my, I need to pay attention 00:29:48.029 --> 00:29:51.210 to these other things, too. And what can happen 00:29:51.210 --> 00:29:53.190 is that when you experience something personally, 00:29:53.410 --> 00:29:56.390 sometimes it gives you, for lack of a better 00:29:56.390 --> 00:29:57.809 word, it gives you a little bit of a superpower 00:29:57.809 --> 00:30:00.869 to know how to care for people. especially in 00:30:00.869 --> 00:30:03.130 that arena. And so the reason that every single 00:30:03.130 --> 00:30:05.509 week we've asked these different groups of people 00:30:05.509 --> 00:30:08.890 about how does the biblical teaching that all 00:30:08.890 --> 00:30:10.369 people are created in the image of God shape 00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:12.109 your understanding of your identity and inclusion 00:30:12.109 --> 00:30:16.250 with the church is because they have carried 00:30:16.250 --> 00:30:18.809 this their whole lives. Even if they've discovered 00:30:18.809 --> 00:30:20.930 it and understood it in different ways in different 00:30:20.930 --> 00:30:23.970 times, they have carried around the desire to 00:30:23.970 --> 00:30:26.089 be loved and accepted by the people around them. 00:30:26.190 --> 00:30:29.900 So that shapes. how they go, this is how you 00:30:29.900 --> 00:30:34.740 could do that. And so I'm curious, as we hear 00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:36.779 at the end of this series about the Imago Dei, 00:30:36.859 --> 00:30:39.819 the image of God being in you from the very moment 00:30:39.819 --> 00:30:41.519 that you were created and from the beginning 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.799 of time, all of us being created in the image 00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:47.079 of God, how does that shape your understanding 00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:50.980 of identity and inclusion within the church for 00:30:50.980 --> 00:31:05.819 people in general? That's a big one. I mean, 00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:10.279 I guess I've mentioned it a little bit before, 00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:12.960 but I've always felt close to God. I've always 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:19.160 felt like I was supposed to be a practicing Christian. 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:26.019 That's why when I started thinking about queerness 00:31:26.019 --> 00:31:31.480 within my faith, it started as a how to heal. 00:31:31.619 --> 00:31:34.319 Because I was like, I know that my faith is... 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:41.720 So how do I get past this obstacle? And then 00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:45.440 once I realized and started learning that this 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.880 wasn't an obstacle in way of my faith, but rather 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.200 in the way of community and my understanding 00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:54.500 of my faith and the world around me. I feel like 00:31:54.500 --> 00:31:56.299 that's really important because so many people, 00:31:56.359 --> 00:31:58.079 I feel like, about any number of things are told 00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:01.420 it's either or. Yeah. You either are this or 00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:04.099 you have faith. Right. And these days you'll 00:32:04.099 --> 00:32:06.019 hear the word deconstruction quite a bit. You'll 00:32:06.019 --> 00:32:09.420 be like, oh, they deconstructed. Well, if they 00:32:09.420 --> 00:32:11.240 know that God is going to love them and walk 00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:13.660 with them and be with them no matter what, it 00:32:13.660 --> 00:32:15.420 helps you go, okay, well, then my faith isn't 00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:18.019 something I have to lose. Right. Yeah. And so, 00:32:18.059 --> 00:32:20.799 like I mentioned, I went to a Christian school, 00:32:20.980 --> 00:32:25.200 but I was studying theater. And so I was in a 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:27.500 relatively progressive bubble within my conservative 00:32:27.500 --> 00:32:32.019 school. was the only, like, out person in my 00:32:32.019 --> 00:32:34.579 circle, one of maybe two or three out people 00:32:34.579 --> 00:32:37.099 by the time, like, I was a junior or senior in 00:32:37.099 --> 00:32:40.279 the, like, larger school campus. And within, 00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:44.480 like, six months of graduating, most of my friends 00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:50.039 came out and started deconstruction, you know, 00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:53.759 and very few of them are still engaged with faith. 00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:56.160 And we, like, started at the same place. We came 00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:59.579 from very similar backgrounds. And, but that, 00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:03.140 like, was never even a thought in my mind. And 00:33:03.140 --> 00:33:08.799 so, so I think it, like, you know, also it's 00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:11.140 been mentioned, like, how do we fit into the 00:33:11.140 --> 00:33:15.619 larger church community within groups? I, like, 00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:19.599 have always wanted to be married, to have kids. 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:23.140 And, like, so the, like, celibacy idea was never, 00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:29.130 never made sense for me. desires to have a family, 00:33:29.210 --> 00:33:32.130 to whatever, to not be single, to be a dad, but 00:33:32.130 --> 00:33:35.190 also this attraction to other men. You know, 00:33:35.210 --> 00:33:38.109 like, why would these two things be true if we're 00:33:38.109 --> 00:33:42.509 perfectly created? And so, yeah, I don't know. 00:33:43.730 --> 00:33:50.250 End, I guess. However that wraps up. A Star Wars 00:33:50.250 --> 00:33:56.670 just wipe. You just like, from one. Would either 00:33:56.670 --> 00:33:59.009 of the other two of you like to share how that 00:33:59.009 --> 00:34:01.349 biblical concept shapes your understanding of 00:34:01.349 --> 00:34:03.910 your identity and inclusion of not just you but 00:34:03.910 --> 00:34:08.170 others inside the church? Yeah, I guess I'll 00:34:08.170 --> 00:34:10.050 share a little bit. I've been thinking about 00:34:10.050 --> 00:34:14.789 this now for a while in kind of different pieces 00:34:14.789 --> 00:34:17.210 and related to myself and related to others. 00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:21.079 It's been my disabled queer friends who have 00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:23.739 kind of helped me the most in kind of thinking 00:34:23.739 --> 00:34:25.539 through what this means for me and what this 00:34:25.539 --> 00:34:28.519 looks like. And we've been talking a lot about 00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:33.880 God and the plurality of God, right? God is not 00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:39.119 one thing. God is three in one. Father, Son, 00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:44.760 Holy Spirit. Right. And, like, Son, like, Jesus 00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:49.010 was born a man. But we have assumed God identifies 00:34:49.010 --> 00:34:53.329 as a male, and we assume that the spirit is some 00:34:53.329 --> 00:34:57.010 male -related thing, right? Because that's what 00:34:57.010 --> 00:34:59.130 we have been taught traditionally. But, like, 00:34:59.170 --> 00:35:03.269 there is nothing that indicates that God is, 00:35:03.309 --> 00:35:09.130 like, I'm a he, right? God the Father doesn't 00:35:09.130 --> 00:35:13.650 have a body. And so we kind of project this image 00:35:13.650 --> 00:35:17.099 of, well, God has a body. God is a male. God 00:35:17.099 --> 00:35:20.719 has everything that a male has. And it does shape 00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:23.139 the way that we think about a lot of things. 00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:27.239 As much as that is a cultural thing that needed 00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:29.360 to be written in the scriptures to help people 00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:32.239 understand what it was that was being presented 00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:35.260 to them. Right. So, I mean, I guess for me, like, 00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:40.539 if God created me in their image, like, maybe. 00:35:40.989 --> 00:35:43.769 god's image isn't what we expected it to be right 00:35:43.769 --> 00:35:46.869 like just kind of thinking about that differently 00:35:46.869 --> 00:35:51.030 in the first place like we have you know art 00:35:51.030 --> 00:35:55.769 that shows us what god might look like but um 00:35:55.769 --> 00:36:08.780 no one's seen him and come back me like as i'm 00:36:08.780 --> 00:36:10.940 imagining myself in the image of god i'm imagining 00:36:10.940 --> 00:36:15.039 myself more widely i guess than i was before 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:17.199 because i'm thinking of god more expansively 00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:20.480 yeah that's i'm gonna go ahead and jump to the 00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.099 last one what do you think are some barriers 00:36:23.099 --> 00:36:26.380 and when i say this i'm talking about us like 00:36:26.380 --> 00:36:28.619 i don't just mean like the big church because 00:36:28.619 --> 00:36:31.159 while some of us are going to end up moving or 00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:34.199 or going going away to college or for whatever 00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:35.719 reason some of us are going to end up not at 00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:37.500 this church anymore and you're going to maybe 00:36:37.500 --> 00:36:41.099 end up at other churches. And so while it has 00:36:41.099 --> 00:36:43.219 applications that are broad no matter where we 00:36:43.219 --> 00:36:46.699 end up in our lives, I'm more thinking about 00:36:46.699 --> 00:36:50.019 us, for us as a family to hear from you what 00:36:50.019 --> 00:36:52.480 you think. What do you think are some barriers 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.420 that prevent churches from being fully inclusive 00:36:55.420 --> 00:36:58.539 of LGBTQ plus persons and their leadership abilities? 00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:01.059 What do you think are practical steps that individuals 00:37:01.059 --> 00:37:04.260 in our community can take to ensure that they 00:37:04.260 --> 00:37:07.369 know that they are valued, heard? and embraced 00:37:07.369 --> 00:37:13.869 i just keep thinking about you know just full 00:37:13.869 --> 00:37:17.409 fully accepting and just loving us meeting us 00:37:17.409 --> 00:37:20.250 where we're at too because there are so many 00:37:20.250 --> 00:37:23.849 layers you know just like kathy had said with 00:37:23.849 --> 00:37:27.170 having a strange ties to family relationships 00:37:27.170 --> 00:37:30.449 and you know even some friendships and stuff 00:37:30.449 --> 00:37:33.960 like that and i just i truly think like Okay, 00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:36.800 maybe you might not agree with our lifestyle, 00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:39.320 quote unquote, like people like to say, but, 00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:42.280 you know, just accepting us for the goodness 00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:44.920 that we want to bring. I mean, that's what we're 00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:48.559 here for. We're all here to serve God. And maybe 00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:52.019 we don't fit this cookie cutter, cisgendered, 00:37:52.019 --> 00:37:55.340 you know, image of, you know, getting married 00:37:55.340 --> 00:37:58.519 and having kids by a certain age and falling 00:37:58.519 --> 00:38:00.920 in love with the opposite sex or whatever that 00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:03.860 may be. Just we're here to serve God. right and 00:38:03.860 --> 00:38:05.219 that's what we're here for at the end of the 00:38:05.219 --> 00:38:12.179 day all of us should be um i guess i'll say do 00:38:12.179 --> 00:38:15.519 your research that's the professor in me um but 00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:17.880 i think like for me it was really helpful to 00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:20.039 take some of those passages that i had grown 00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:22.119 up with saying this is what's right and this 00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:24.519 is what's wrong and look at them more fully in 00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:29.289 context So when I was doing my exploration, I 00:38:29.289 --> 00:38:30.929 asked a queer friend of mine, I was like, I keep 00:38:30.929 --> 00:38:32.789 looking for things and all I keep getting are 00:38:32.789 --> 00:38:36.130 the things I know I'm not supposed to read. Right? 00:38:36.230 --> 00:38:37.849 Like when you do that search, like there's plenty 00:38:37.849 --> 00:38:39.690 of stuff written about why you can't be queer. 00:38:40.230 --> 00:38:42.730 And sometimes wading through that is really hard. 00:38:42.909 --> 00:38:46.059 So I read God and the Gay Christian. And that 00:38:46.059 --> 00:38:48.139 one was a really helpful one for me in terms 00:38:48.139 --> 00:38:51.019 of like looking at those passages actually in 00:38:51.019 --> 00:38:53.659 the context in which they were written and thinking 00:38:53.659 --> 00:38:56.159 through some of those clobber passages that Bradley 00:38:56.159 --> 00:39:00.199 talked about earlier. And I think just like if 00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:02.860 you know you have that bias or you were raised 00:39:02.860 --> 00:39:08.780 to believe that we're not okay, like spend the 00:39:08.780 --> 00:39:13.019 time doing the work to see like. why that might 00:39:13.019 --> 00:39:15.380 not be what everyone believes. Whether or not 00:39:15.380 --> 00:39:17.420 you agree with it in the end is, you know, you. 00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:20.699 But I think doing the work to kind of explore 00:39:20.699 --> 00:39:23.460 that a bit more is a big one for many of us to 00:39:23.460 --> 00:39:26.659 be able to feel more comfortable. And before, 00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:27.880 I don't know if Bradley's going to share, but 00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:31.579 I'll say, I have books, just, I just, not as 00:39:31.579 --> 00:39:34.559 organized as Jen in the women's panel, like, 00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:37.280 just bring out an entire library of books to 00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:40.000 put about, but I have books that I can suggest. 00:39:40.619 --> 00:39:42.420 And I'm also happy to have coffee with you and 00:39:42.420 --> 00:39:45.820 explain my entire path of how I got to believing 00:39:45.820 --> 00:39:48.239 what I believe. Because I was brought up very 00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:51.260 conservative as well. And so there's a really 00:39:51.260 --> 00:39:54.579 long path of how I got to the place that I am 00:39:54.579 --> 00:39:56.300 in my understanding. Bradley, you have anything? 00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:06.820 I mean, yeah. Would you like me to repeat the 00:40:06.820 --> 00:40:17.829 question? I was literally just talking to Jen 00:40:17.829 --> 00:40:24.570 before. I was like, I'm nervous. Yeah, I like 00:40:24.570 --> 00:40:29.429 wrote essays, you know, so that I wouldn't just 00:40:29.429 --> 00:40:34.329 stutter up here. But yeah, so I mean, you asked 00:40:34.329 --> 00:40:36.010 about barriers. What barriers are there? And 00:40:36.010 --> 00:40:38.969 I think like the... just the collective history 00:40:38.969 --> 00:40:41.789 of anti -queerness in the church is a barrier, 00:40:41.869 --> 00:40:44.869 even in, like, relatively affirming spaces. You 00:40:44.869 --> 00:40:48.329 know, like, it is, like, counter what the, like, 00:40:48.329 --> 00:40:51.010 larger church, what we have all, or not all, 00:40:51.030 --> 00:40:53.250 I guess, but what most of us have been taught 00:40:53.250 --> 00:40:56.010 within the church. It's, like, counterintuitive 00:40:56.010 --> 00:41:01.389 of that to be affirming. And so there's also, 00:41:01.449 --> 00:41:05.000 like, so many, like... regressions happening 00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:08.360 socially right now socially and politically and 00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:10.699 that sort of thing which affects the church you 00:41:10.699 --> 00:41:14.019 know like the church and the state are so interwoven 00:41:14.019 --> 00:41:16.900 right now in the country in which we live and 00:41:16.900 --> 00:41:21.739 so like it's so hard when like the larger community 00:41:21.739 --> 00:41:27.320 of our nation and hand in hand the like capital 00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:33.619 C church are like speaking so so boldly against 00:41:33.619 --> 00:41:36.880 queerness and talking about removing rights that 00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:40.559 have been here and taking steps backwards. The 00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:44.539 things that we can do as Christians, whether 00:41:44.539 --> 00:41:47.460 you're queer or not, are to interact with the 00:41:47.460 --> 00:41:53.300 queer people in your life in a real way. Support 00:41:53.300 --> 00:41:57.039 queer programming, especially since they're being 00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:04.630 attacked right now. talk to people about your 00:42:04.630 --> 00:42:09.369 beliefs. We talk about so many other things that 00:42:09.369 --> 00:42:12.050 we believe, talking with your other Christian 00:42:12.050 --> 00:42:13.949 friends, talking with your queer friends about 00:42:13.949 --> 00:42:16.510 what you believe about queerness within the church. 00:42:17.630 --> 00:42:20.369 Discussion is important, allyship is important, 00:42:20.590 --> 00:42:25.150 as with any sort of social movement. It takes 00:42:25.150 --> 00:42:27.670 both the people who are in that experience and 00:42:27.670 --> 00:42:29.190 the people who are outside of that experience, 00:42:29.349 --> 00:42:34.300 but standing with them for for progress to happen 00:42:34.300 --> 00:42:38.360 and for tradition to be broken and that sort 00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:43.159 of thing. So this is a series that every once 00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:44.559 in a while someone will ask me, like, how do 00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:46.059 you come up with what you guys are going to talk 00:42:46.059 --> 00:42:48.480 about? I have a document, it's a note on my Apple 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:51.079 devices, and when I have an idea for a series, 00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:54.079 I write it down, or I'll ask Jen for an idea, 00:42:54.139 --> 00:42:55.579 things like that, and we'll just write it down 00:42:55.579 --> 00:42:58.739 and we'll figure out when it might fit. This 00:42:58.739 --> 00:43:02.059 is a series... that I started talking about the 00:43:02.059 --> 00:43:11.280 idea for this series three years ago. And part 00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:14.199 of the reason was because our church is diverse 00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:17.880 in more than just black and white. Our church 00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:20.900 is diverse in a multitude of different ways. 00:43:21.639 --> 00:43:25.760 And I knew that over the years, there's certain 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:28.500 things that get talked about a lot. And so I 00:43:28.500 --> 00:43:30.909 knew that it was... It was going to be coming 00:43:30.909 --> 00:43:33.630 time where we needed to talk about this subject 00:43:33.630 --> 00:43:39.789 more directly. And two years ago, I put it on 00:43:39.789 --> 00:43:41.349 the calendar, and then there was something else 00:43:41.349 --> 00:43:44.170 that was going on, and I was like, we need to 00:43:44.170 --> 00:43:46.050 talk about that instead as a church. And then 00:43:46.050 --> 00:43:48.949 last year, it was going to be in January, and 00:43:48.949 --> 00:43:50.829 I was like, we need to start this year talking 00:43:50.829 --> 00:43:54.989 about this other thing. And if you look at the 00:43:54.989 --> 00:43:56.590 graphic, I told you there's some secrets in that 00:43:56.590 --> 00:44:02.989 graphic. Imago Dei happens to be spelled D -E 00:44:02.989 --> 00:44:09.929 -I. And you have unknowingly been bamboozled 00:44:09.929 --> 00:44:12.789 into a series about diversity, equity, and inclusion. 00:44:14.789 --> 00:44:18.269 But that had nothing to do with what was happening 00:44:18.269 --> 00:44:21.510 in the world. Because you can ask Jen, you can 00:44:21.510 --> 00:44:23.510 ask Scott, like the people that are on the regular 00:44:23.510 --> 00:44:26.730 teaching team. I said, hey, I think it's going 00:44:26.730 --> 00:44:28.389 to be time for us to do this series like last 00:44:28.389 --> 00:44:31.610 fall. I was like, it's going to be time for us 00:44:31.610 --> 00:44:34.449 to do that series. And then it was like, all 00:44:34.449 --> 00:44:36.329 right, I was going to start the Sunday after 00:44:36.329 --> 00:44:37.630 Easter. And I was like, you know what, let's 00:44:37.630 --> 00:44:41.429 actually use Easter as the primer. And part of 00:44:41.429 --> 00:44:42.150 this is because we're going to have the most 00:44:42.150 --> 00:44:45.050 people here to hear it. And see, like, this is, 00:44:45.090 --> 00:44:49.150 we are all, we all bear the image of God. And 00:44:49.150 --> 00:44:54.889 behind the word Imago Dei is the Father and Adam 00:44:54.889 --> 00:44:59.340 reaching out their hands to each other. And the 00:44:59.340 --> 00:45:02.860 word safe, safer and safest. And then the color 00:45:02.860 --> 00:45:09.719 scheme is the trans flag. Like, the church needs 00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:11.820 to learn how to communicate in so many different 00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:15.619 ways that you can be safe here. And no matter 00:45:15.619 --> 00:45:17.800 who you are, we want this church to be a place 00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:20.340 that is safe for you. There's going to be people 00:45:20.340 --> 00:45:22.739 that don't understand you. There's going to be 00:45:22.739 --> 00:45:25.260 people that don't get why you feel the way you 00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:28.210 feel. And that's why we always say that Jesus 00:45:28.210 --> 00:45:31.789 is the central thing. I talked to another friend, 00:45:31.909 --> 00:45:34.570 this was probably a year and a half ago now, 00:45:34.690 --> 00:45:37.210 where a gay man had started coming to the church. 00:45:37.949 --> 00:45:41.230 And I was talking to someone else about that 00:45:41.230 --> 00:45:44.349 experience for that person. And they said to 00:45:44.349 --> 00:45:46.489 me, I didn't know that it was possible for a 00:45:46.489 --> 00:45:47.909 church to do this. And I said, well, what do 00:45:47.909 --> 00:45:49.989 you mean? And they said, to be as affirming as 00:45:49.989 --> 00:45:54.489 we are is to still be about Jesus. And that's 00:45:54.489 --> 00:45:57.250 really what we're trying to do. to be open to 00:45:57.250 --> 00:45:59.889 everybody, but for this still to be about Jesus. 00:46:00.849 --> 00:46:03.849 We still value the scriptures. We still believe 00:46:03.849 --> 00:46:08.309 in God. And we want to point people to God with 00:46:08.309 --> 00:46:12.329 every moment that we have together. But holding 00:46:12.329 --> 00:46:14.590 things loosely with our hands open, understanding 00:46:14.590 --> 00:46:17.550 that there might be things that have been interpreted 00:46:17.550 --> 00:46:20.269 because of culture. There might be things that 00:46:20.269 --> 00:46:22.550 we don't understand. And there might be things 00:46:22.550 --> 00:46:25.639 that... God has space for us to go, you know 00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:28.039 what? We're going to walk into this believing 00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:32.840 that we can do this by faith. So if you have 00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:34.400 questions about any of the things that we've 00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:36.699 talked about over the last four and five weeks, 00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:39.199 feel free to email me. I'm not afraid of your 00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:42.840 emails. Feel free to connection card me. Whatever 00:46:42.840 --> 00:46:45.119 it is, I'm happy to talk to you about any of 00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:47.440 these things as the lead pastor of this church. 00:46:49.739 --> 00:46:53.389 I'm willing to discuss any of these things. But 00:46:53.389 --> 00:46:55.969 let's make sure that we are moving forward as 00:46:55.969 --> 00:46:58.989 a church with kindness. You may not think it's 00:46:58.989 --> 00:47:02.730 okay for a woman to preach. You may have grown 00:47:02.730 --> 00:47:04.710 up in an environment where interracial couples 00:47:04.710 --> 00:47:08.750 were wrong. You may have grown up believing that 00:47:08.750 --> 00:47:10.650 if someone is disabled in any way, it's because 00:47:10.650 --> 00:47:13.489 they didn't have enough faith. And you may have 00:47:13.489 --> 00:47:16.559 grown up being taught... that there is no room 00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:19.440 whatsoever for a man to love a man, for a woman 00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:22.179 to love a woman, or for someone to have no desire 00:47:22.179 --> 00:47:25.880 for physical affection in that way at all. And 00:47:25.880 --> 00:47:28.699 we are going to make space for it, for everybody. 00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:32.300 That's the promise that we're making. Not that 00:47:32.300 --> 00:47:34.280 we will never get anything wrong internally with 00:47:34.280 --> 00:47:36.820 each other, or even from this pulpit, but that 00:47:36.820 --> 00:47:40.300 we're going to try. Amen? Amen. Will you please 00:47:40.300 --> 00:47:43.619 thank our panel for joining us today? Thank you.