Well, good morning. I already said my name is
Greg. I'm one of the pastors here. If we've never
met before, I would love the chance to meet you.
There's going to be a QR code at the end of the
service. There's also one on every one of the
tables if you want to put your camera at that
and fill out that connection card and just put
that you'd like to meet with the pastor. We'll
make sure to connect. We are in the fifth and
final week of our series that's called Imago
Dei. And as our panelists come on up, you guys
can come up now and find a seat. I'll just sit
here on the end, but you guys can decide who
wants to sit where in the other three. As our
panelists come up, we have a primer that we have
been reading at the top of each of our panel
discussions as a way of setting the stage. The
scriptures tell us that from the beginning, we
were created in the image of God, and so we bear
the likeness of our creator every single day.
One of us. This is why for many years now our
church website has said we welcome all persons
and have no leadership limitations based on race,
gender, identity, sexual orientation, or physical
ability for those who confess Jesus Christ as
Lord because the central standard is Jesus. But
because of how the Bible has been interpreted
over the centuries, the church has often either
implicitly or explicitly communicated that we
don't all bear the image of God equally. Women
have been left out or excluded from leadership
in the church historic. Gay, lesbian, trans,
and queer folk have been promised they can belong
so long as they fit in. People with differently
abled bodies have often been excluded or treated
less than because of their physicality. And non
-white cultures and ethnic groups have often
been treated like they're only here to help the
quote -unquote real image bearers. It sounds
ugly because it is. It doesn't sound like Jesus
because it isn't. And so our panel discussion
during this series, they're meant to be a kind
of promise, not to perfection or to utopia, and
we aren't expecting full agreement about absolutely...
everything from everyone in the room. But these
conversations are a kind of promise that we are
working and learning to be a community that is
safe for people that have been pushed to the
margins. People of color, women, the disabled,
and the LGBTQ plus person. Because we were all
created in the image of God and no one should
be left out. So as we discuss what it means for
us to bear the image of God in the church and
in the world, and for the church to be a safe
place for us to grow in the likeness of Jesus
and the fullness of what God has created us to
be, will you please welcome our panel for today.
The lights can be a little bright to the uninitiated.
So I'm putting this here. If you guys want anything,
I have another. I'm going to pull out. I realized
that it's nice to have something that us on the
panel can put our drinks on. So I just thought,
you know what? I'll pull these out, and you can
move those around however you like, whatever
makes sense for you. And then I will plop myself
up on this. Do you mind each of you just introducing
yourself to your church family? Hi, y 'all. My
name is Destiny. I'm Bradley. And I'm Kathy.
All right. Let's see. So throughout this series,
we have been using the same questions for each
panel, just changing them slightly so that it
makes sense for the people that we're chatting
with today. And so as you feel comfortable, I
wanted to just ask what... What was your introduction
to God and or church and how did you initially
get connected to God and church? If you don't
mind, we'll just go straight down. So my mom
grew up Catholic and my dad grew up. I forgot
what denomination, honestly, but he was forced
in a church and he said that my. Papaw would
always poke him in the leg with a pencil if he
was falling asleep. So we went to a few services,
but my parents inevitably let me pick my own
adventure with Jesus and stuff. So I started
going to a church back in my hometown from Rochelle,
Illinois, and I started going to Sunday school,
started going in the worship band and all that.
So just really found my own path with Jesus.
I also grew up in the church. My parents were
both very active in the church. I was very active
in my home church growing up. I went to a Christian
undergrad and have pretty much always attended,
though I have changed where I've gone and what
specific denominations and flavors I've gone
to. Yeah, so I had a mom who was Catholic and
a dad who was from the Church of Christ. And
so when they got married, they went, where do
we go? So they didn't go anywhere until my sisters
and I were invited to a vacation Bible school.
And then we started attending that very conservative
church. We stayed there until we were asked to
leave. And then we attended a different conservative
church. And so I've moved around from place to
place. over time, but have chosen different kinds
of churches since I have been old enough to make
that decision myself. So if you feel comfortable
sharing, because it's not always obvious to everyone
that we know or that meets us, how do you personally
identify, and with that in mind, have you found
it difficult or natural to accept who you are
or how you were made? Start anywhere. I self
-identify as gay, homosexual, whatever. It was
certainly not easy to affirm who I was, to accept
that within the church. Like I said, I had always
grown up in the church, and I grew up specifically
in very conservative churches until my adulthood,
mid -20s. And so it took a long time for me to
sort of combine the two aspects. in my life,
and that actually happened while I was in undergrad
at a conservative Christian school, but in sort
of a more progressive bubble that allowed me
to go on that journey for myself and find my
personal relationship with God and my personal
relationship with the balance between my orientation
and attractions and my faith. Now it seems so
silly. That was such a hard journey for so long.
But yeah, it was a long journey. I would say
I probably knew that something was different,
though I didn't necessarily have the language.
From the time I was very little, I probably was
able to put a label on it when I was in high
school. wouldn't even let myself think about
it or explore that until I was in college. But
yeah. Sure. So I am a cisgender woman who is
asexual. About 1 .7 % of the population is asexual.
So we are people who do not experience desire
for physical intimacy, we'll say, since it's
a mixed -age room. So for me, it was an interesting
experience growing up because there was no option
but straight, heterosexual. And I didn't even
learn that asexuality was a thing until I was
in my 30s. So it's my newest identity. So I'm
still working some things out there. But it was
really hard growing up because, especially in
the teenage years where everyone's thinking about
other people, I was like... why are we spending
so much time talking about this? This doesn't
make any sense to me. So we'd have weeks where
we would do purity stuff, and you'd sign the
cards, and I'd be like, is everybody really having
a problem with this? I don't understand why we
spend so much time talking about this. There
are so many other interesting things we could
be talking about. And so it lends itself to a
lot of interesting relationship dynamics, but
the expectation for me was always... that I would
get married and have kids, and that I was going
to be the first of my sisters to do that. My
mom got married the day after she turned 20.
That was supposed to be what happened for me,
and I am now in my 40s and unmarried, the only
one of my sisters who has never been married,
and the only one of my sisters who has never
had kids. And that was not what was supposed
to happen, and that's not what I was supposed
to be. I grew up in a church where... women grow
up they get married they have babies and they
raise them and so i have done none of those things
and that has made life very interesting in terms
of my church attendance and then i identify as
non -binary so they them pronouns and pansexual
um so i Had a really hard time accepting myself
because we grow up in a community where you want
to check a box right you want to label what you
are and I was just talking to Jake about this
earlier and saying how I Couldn't find the words
to figure out when I had fallen for my first
female and you know then that that really complicated
things in my mind too because oh my gosh, does
this mean God's not going to love me anymore?
You know, does this make me unholy? Does this
make me not belong? So it was really, really
hard. But the more that I've grown with my faith,
I feel like I finally have found a church home
that affirms who I am and is graciously still
wanting to take the fruits of my labor, right?
Like other churches, I know I've been a part
of boards that it's time, talent, and treasure.
And other churches are great to take your talent
sometimes if you fit the box. They're always
willing to take your treasure, that's for sure.
But here, it's totally the opposite, and we can
really be who we are. First of all, thank you
for being so vulnerable. I think that this is
something that, for at least one person on the
panel, I said, hey, I'm willing to not stream
this. If you would prefer that. Because it's
an extremely vulnerable thing that they're doing.
And so just thank you very much for being so
vulnerable about this. And so I just wanted to
ask what we've asked everyone else. What do you
think God feels about you? And has that changed
over time? I'll go first. I think God loves me.
In my journey, I think... It doesn't matter who
I've loved, who I'm going to love in my future,
whether that's romantic, friendship, platonic,
you know. I just know that God is a good God
and I wouldn't be made to be just condemned to
hell. So I think God loves me for who I am. Yeah,
I think very similarly. I think, not to like
jump questions or weave questions together, but
I'm... And I know that this passage has been
brought up other times in this panel, but I think
so much about the Psalm 139, 13, and 14. I'm
sorry. I'm sorry. I know it's been brought up
literally every week. So I'm sure you all have
heard it in the last month. But for you created
my inmost being, you knit me together in my mother's
womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and
wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful. I
know that full well. And I think we obviously
all identified with that because I think it's
like the most succinct thing about the like being
image bearers, right? And so I like think back
to how different I felt Always. And I didn't
know what that meant. I remember being attracted
to friends, but I didn't know that I was attracted
to friends, even when I was very little, and
then in high school, and then later. And I didn't
have the vocabulary for that, but I can trace
those things back to literally being six and
seven and that sort of thing. And I don't believe
that God makes mistakes. And then there's also
so little in the Bible, about queerness anyways
and those like those things that are that those
passages that do talk about it so rarely are
talking about love and connection and relationship
they're talking about non -consensual acts they're
talking about immorality they're talking about
um other things and adultery like they're those
clobber passages if you're familiar with that
term um which what an awful But, like, they're
not talking about the relationship and the identity
that we're talking about or that we identify
as. And so I think when something is mentioned
so little and also when it is mentioned isn't
actually what we're talking about, like, I think
it's hard to ignore us as part of that fearfully
and wonderfully made that God says we all are.
I think for me, it's been a little bit different
just because I guess my queerness is the more
church acceptable kind, right? Like people just
assume that you're choosing to be celibate. That's
a different thing. Like that's, this is not a
choice I have made. My high school years would
have been a lot easier if this were a choice.
But like, I think because of that, it's been
a lot less about how God thinks of me and how
I understand what my place is in the church.
like I've never doubted that God loved me I've
never thought that I'm going to hell because
of who I am but I have like growing up in that
place where you were supposed to get married
and have kids and raise them in the faith like
that was your whole purpose for being that's
the part that has had to change for me and I've
had to like grow and think of differently so
Riley kind of stole her thunder a little bit.
But I know that Kathy, you had a verse last time,
so I'm curious if you have one. And then I want
to give you the chance to share if you have insight
about that particular that you want to say. But
is there a place that you find yourself going
in the Scriptures that reminds you of what God
really thinks of you? And the reason we've asked
everyone this question is because all of us probably
need a place in the Scriptures to go to remind
us what God really thinks of us. Right? The world
is going to tell us what God thinks of us, and
even sectors of Christianity will tell us, well,
this is what God really thinks of you. And so
I'm curious if either of you have a place that
you go that reminds you what God really thinks
of you. I was thinking about this a lot. So when
I was on the panel for disability, I shared that
verse from Ecclesiastes about not being able
to make straight what God has made crooked. And
I think that applies here as well. In thinking
about it, for me, I get more comfort in looking
at the women in the Bible who weren't married
and had kids and did important things. So I was
thinking on the drive here about Rahab. She gets
a bad rap, but my goodness, was she really pivotal
to the story in which she appears, right? So
just kind of thinking about... how the value
of women is not necessarily tied to men in the
Bible, and we don't necessarily point that out.
But for me, that was something that was really
helpful. Let me jump in real quick. Anyone familiar
with the Dan Brown novel, The Da Vinci Code?
The conspiracy, and it wasn't real, it was all
fiction, but a lot of Christianity freaked out
about this idea that, oh, they're saying that
Jesus was married. to marry Magdalene. But there's
another side to that, is that it doesn't just
say, oh, well, Jesus was actually married. It
removes the idea that Mary Magdalene was valuable
in and of herself without having to marry Jesus.
That she could just be an important person in
the story of Jesus without having to be married
to him. And that matters, but we are also still,
not to go to last week, but we are such a male
-driven culture that we're thinking more about
the problem of Jesus being married than we are
thinking about the idea that it removes part
of Mary's story. So, did you want to say something?
No, you stole all my thunder. No, I mean, I genuinely,
I go to that verse just because I really do believe
if this all -knowing God, that is supposed to
be so good and has known me before I've been
knit in my mother's womb would just create me
to go to hell. I just don't think that that's
a good God. So that's why that scripture stands
out to me so much. So thanks for bringing it
up. And this next question is also a vulnerable
question. And it's not framed because on any
of these panels that we're looking for us to
share a story that somehow makes other churches
look bad because Every church has its issues.
Every church has things that they're working
through and that they're growing in and learning
how to be healthy about. But it's also important
for communities to hear about how either the
church as a whole or even our church has done
something that's been helpful or even if there's
something, this is probably hurtful and it would
be helpful if we didn't say things this way.
And so in your experience, have you felt more
othered or affirmed by Christianity or the church
because of your identity? And is there a story
you think would be helpful to share that goes
along with that? I can jump in if that's okay,
but I think just accepting people for who they
are. I know that sounds so basic, but, you know,
I just really think back to a church a while
back that, you know, my fiancee, who is a female.
we thought was our new home church and stuff
because they really seemed welcoming and affirming
and all that good stuff. And then the pastor
turned around and said, we need to have a talk.
We need to have the talk. And the pastor's wife
said, this isn't a breakup. Well, you know, again,
how I mentioned time, talent, and treasure, they
were very easily to take my treasure that I so...
you know, heartfelt driven because it was to
help a kid go to church camp. And I remember
that when I was a kid and how pivotal that was
in my faith. And okay, but we got to make sure
we're following the doctrine. You know, that's
what we were told. So I just, I don't know. I
mean, even if it's not your belief, you know,
even if you, I don't know, even if you don't
agree with LGBTQ -ness. Just really just taking
people for who they are is really what it comes
down to at the end of the day and appreciating
all of them and not just parts of them. Two things.
I like that you turned it into a new word, LGBTQ
-ness. So if you hear me say that, it's because
of you. The other thing is maybe we don't all
understand what you mean by treasure, but usually
what we mean by treasure in some churches is
that, like, well, you can give money. And for
me, my philosophy is that when you give money
back to God through the local church, that's
an act of worship. That's literally an act of
service and trust. And so I've always felt that
it's wrong for me to say, like, we'll take your
money, but you definitely can't be XYZ. And so
it creates problems. It creates this weird power
dynamic where, like, oh, yeah, give us all your
money. but you can't stand at the door and welcome
people. And so that becomes problematic. So either
of you have a, have you felt more othered or
affirmed by Christianity? And is there a story
connected to that? Yeah, I mean, I would say
I felt more othered overall, and not so much
here, but in a lot of churches that I've been
to. Either you are supposed to be a part of a
post -high school 20 -somethings ministry, which
is... truly a meat market, right? Like, M -E
-E -T. Yeah. And, like, that was not a priority
for me. And then, like, you know, I became an
adult, and I was going to work and doing job
things, and they were like, oh, you know, join
the women's ministry. I'm like, okay, I'll hang
out with women. Sure, why not? But every women's
ministry event was about being a good wife. about
being a good mother, about how we have the relationship.
And I'm just like, that's not my reality. I mean,
I love kids. I'm very proud that I helped raise
my nievelings. But I also, like, I'm glad I get
to give them back at the end of the day. And
I am happy with that. So, you know, to have every
event that I'm supposed to go to to be a part
of this community be related to being married
or being a parent, like, that just made no place
for me. I even went to a church once where the
very first day I visited, they were like, just
so you know, there's no one your age here. There
were four of us. Yeah, so I think some of that...
Scott, you're taking notes, right? Where's Scott?
We need to add that one. When people walk through
the door, make sure you tell them how many people
the same age as them there are. Yeah, you know,
it's a thing. So just not finding a place for
people who don't... fit your standard, regardless
of what that is, makes it really hard to be a
part of a church. Yeah, I mean, I have a story
very similar to Destiny's, where I had been attending
this church all through undergrad, and then I
moved back to the area where my parents and my
school were after COVID happened. And so I started
attending there again and wanted to get more
involved. And I've been a part of worship ministries
and music ministries pretty much since high school
and at different churches that I had been a part
of. And I was like, hey, I'm trying to get involved
in this church, would love to get involved in
this way. I had had a great relationship with
both pastors, but specifically the music ministry
leader pastor. um that church throughout the
four or five years that i've been attending and
um said hey i'm here more long term right now
would love to get involved and we had the talk
you know um which was like if you don't agree
with this doctrine you can't serve in a public
facing way but you know you can run sound if
you want you can you know those sort of things
you can help out in other ways but we can't have
you in a public facing position um because of
how you identify. If you were saying, this is
something I struggle with, I'm on a journey,
that would be a different story for them. But
that ended up, or that resulted in me leaving
that church ultimately and starting looking for
other churches. But yeah, then I found this one
literally the first day that I moved here. felt
very differently about, you know, obviously I
sing today and have been for three years, but
yeah, so yeah, very similar story, but yeah.
So to piggyback off of that, like what does it,
and maybe not even just for you, but for people
that you feel like are part of the LGBTQ -ness
community, what does it or would it mean for
you for a church to be the safest place? For
those people. And for you. I mean, I think it
really just comes down to putting us in those
spots of public facing. You know, I really, really
cherish that, you know, I'm able to help with
the kids. I know I've been really busy lately,
so this year's been really bad at that example.
But, you know, I mean. Here I'm fully accepted.
Like, it was no question to, you know, when I
proposed to Robin, hey, I'd really love to help
with the kids. What do I have to do? Okay, here's
some papers to fill out. Cool. You know, like,
this is truly the first place that I feel like
I can be myself. You know, when I'm here with
my fiancé, I can say, this is my fiancé, Beth.
She is great, you know, and people don't shy
away from it. Y 'all don't treat us any differently.
because we're in a same -sex, what's going to
be a marriage later this year? Shameless plug.
I mean, I think it means, like, so much to be
in a place that allows that and welcomes our
queerness in whatever capacity we're trying to
be involved and serve. And that, like... For
a long time, I felt like I'm supposed to help
teach whatever people in some capacity. And for
a long time, I thought that meant ministry. I
thought that meant whatever. And then when my
career started becoming sort of at the forefront
of the thought and studying that I was doing,
it was like, well, maybe I'm in an industry where
there's such a high percentage of... queer people,
people who have felt othered by the church in
other capacities. So I was like, maybe it's to
show them there is a way out of gayness in the
early times. But that same idea has remained
the same, just flipped. Maybe I'm all of these
things, and I'm in these industries, and I'm
in this church, and I'm in... I am gay because
I'm supposed to show people that you are not
othered by God. You are welcome. You've been
othered by the capital C church, not God, not
individual church communities. And so it's such
a blessing that I get to do that and that I get
to be a public -facing Christian in an industry
and in circles where that has like... the opposite
connotation of what it does in the larger community
and also get to be like a public facing queer
Christian in a capital C church where that's
not generally looked at greatly but I think it's
so intentional on God's part you know that fearfully
and wonderfully made and knitted together with
all of these things that are so important for
the like progression of this faith that has always
been a part of my life. I guess I'll just add
that many of us have strained relationships with
our families. My parents don't know. It's not
an uncommon thing for us to really struggle to
be fully ourselves in the home spaces. So having
a church family that will accept you as you are.
and be there for you is really important. So
I want to preface this next question because
I think that the different experiences that we
have open our eyes to what else is happening
in the world. For me, I really started learning
how to be anti -racist because my son was in
the hospital and our tech was a black male and
I was talking to him about what had happened
to Michael Brown in Ferguson. And things that
he was saying was causing me to see, like, we
were experiencing an affliction. And I was talking
to him about an affliction that was happening
to his community and people that looked like
him. And just having an affliction that I was
experiencing had opened my, I need to pay attention
to these other things, too. And what can happen
is that when you experience something personally,
sometimes it gives you, for lack of a better
word, it gives you a little bit of a superpower
to know how to care for people. especially in
that arena. And so the reason that every single
week we've asked these different groups of people
about how does the biblical teaching that all
people are created in the image of God shape
your understanding of your identity and inclusion
with the church is because they have carried
this their whole lives. Even if they've discovered
it and understood it in different ways in different
times, they have carried around the desire to
be loved and accepted by the people around them.
So that shapes. how they go, this is how you
could do that. And so I'm curious, as we hear
at the end of this series about the Imago Dei,
the image of God being in you from the very moment
that you were created and from the beginning
of time, all of us being created in the image
of God, how does that shape your understanding
of identity and inclusion within the church for
people in general? That's a big one. I mean,
I guess I've mentioned it a little bit before,
but I've always felt close to God. I've always
felt like I was supposed to be a practicing Christian.
That's why when I started thinking about queerness
within my faith, it started as a how to heal.
Because I was like, I know that my faith is...
So how do I get past this obstacle? And then
once I realized and started learning that this
wasn't an obstacle in way of my faith, but rather
in the way of community and my understanding
of my faith and the world around me. I feel like
that's really important because so many people,
I feel like, about any number of things are told
it's either or. Yeah. You either are this or
you have faith. Right. And these days you'll
hear the word deconstruction quite a bit. You'll
be like, oh, they deconstructed. Well, if they
know that God is going to love them and walk
with them and be with them no matter what, it
helps you go, okay, well, then my faith isn't
something I have to lose. Right. Yeah. And so,
like I mentioned, I went to a Christian school,
but I was studying theater. And so I was in a
relatively progressive bubble within my conservative
school. was the only, like, out person in my
circle, one of maybe two or three out people
by the time, like, I was a junior or senior in
the, like, larger school campus. And within,
like, six months of graduating, most of my friends
came out and started deconstruction, you know,
and very few of them are still engaged with faith.
And we, like, started at the same place. We came
from very similar backgrounds. And, but that,
like, was never even a thought in my mind. And
so, so I think it, like, you know, also it's
been mentioned, like, how do we fit into the
larger church community within groups? I, like,
have always wanted to be married, to have kids.
And, like, so the, like, celibacy idea was never,
never made sense for me. desires to have a family,
to whatever, to not be single, to be a dad, but
also this attraction to other men. You know,
like, why would these two things be true if we're
perfectly created? And so, yeah, I don't know.
End, I guess. However that wraps up. A Star Wars
just wipe. You just like, from one. Would either
of the other two of you like to share how that
biblical concept shapes your understanding of
your identity and inclusion of not just you but
others inside the church? Yeah, I guess I'll
share a little bit. I've been thinking about
this now for a while in kind of different pieces
and related to myself and related to others.
It's been my disabled queer friends who have
kind of helped me the most in kind of thinking
through what this means for me and what this
looks like. And we've been talking a lot about
God and the plurality of God, right? God is not
one thing. God is three in one. Father, Son,
Holy Spirit. Right. And, like, Son, like, Jesus
was born a man. But we have assumed God identifies
as a male, and we assume that the spirit is some
male -related thing, right? Because that's what
we have been taught traditionally. But, like,
there is nothing that indicates that God is,
like, I'm a he, right? God the Father doesn't
have a body. And so we kind of project this image
of, well, God has a body. God is a male. God
has everything that a male has. And it does shape
the way that we think about a lot of things.
As much as that is a cultural thing that needed
to be written in the scriptures to help people
understand what it was that was being presented
to them. Right. So, I mean, I guess for me, like,
if God created me in their image, like, maybe.
god's image isn't what we expected it to be right
like just kind of thinking about that differently
in the first place like we have you know art
that shows us what god might look like but um
no one's seen him and come back me like as i'm
imagining myself in the image of god i'm imagining
myself more widely i guess than i was before
because i'm thinking of god more expansively
yeah that's i'm gonna go ahead and jump to the
last one what do you think are some barriers
and when i say this i'm talking about us like
i don't just mean like the big church because
while some of us are going to end up moving or
or going going away to college or for whatever
reason some of us are going to end up not at
this church anymore and you're going to maybe
end up at other churches. And so while it has
applications that are broad no matter where we
end up in our lives, I'm more thinking about
us, for us as a family to hear from you what
you think. What do you think are some barriers
that prevent churches from being fully inclusive
of LGBTQ plus persons and their leadership abilities?
What do you think are practical steps that individuals
in our community can take to ensure that they
know that they are valued, heard? and embraced
i just keep thinking about you know just full
fully accepting and just loving us meeting us
where we're at too because there are so many
layers you know just like kathy had said with
having a strange ties to family relationships
and you know even some friendships and stuff
like that and i just i truly think like Okay,
maybe you might not agree with our lifestyle,
quote unquote, like people like to say, but,
you know, just accepting us for the goodness
that we want to bring. I mean, that's what we're
here for. We're all here to serve God. And maybe
we don't fit this cookie cutter, cisgendered,
you know, image of, you know, getting married
and having kids by a certain age and falling
in love with the opposite sex or whatever that
may be. Just we're here to serve God. right and
that's what we're here for at the end of the
day all of us should be um i guess i'll say do
your research that's the professor in me um but
i think like for me it was really helpful to
take some of those passages that i had grown
up with saying this is what's right and this
is what's wrong and look at them more fully in
context So when I was doing my exploration, I
asked a queer friend of mine, I was like, I keep
looking for things and all I keep getting are
the things I know I'm not supposed to read. Right?
Like when you do that search, like there's plenty
of stuff written about why you can't be queer.
And sometimes wading through that is really hard.
So I read God and the Gay Christian. And that
one was a really helpful one for me in terms
of like looking at those passages actually in
the context in which they were written and thinking
through some of those clobber passages that Bradley
talked about earlier. And I think just like if
you know you have that bias or you were raised
to believe that we're not okay, like spend the
time doing the work to see like. why that might
not be what everyone believes. Whether or not
you agree with it in the end is, you know, you.
But I think doing the work to kind of explore
that a bit more is a big one for many of us to
be able to feel more comfortable. And before,
I don't know if Bradley's going to share, but
I'll say, I have books, just, I just, not as
organized as Jen in the women's panel, like,
just bring out an entire library of books to
put about, but I have books that I can suggest.
And I'm also happy to have coffee with you and
explain my entire path of how I got to believing
what I believe. Because I was brought up very
conservative as well. And so there's a really
long path of how I got to the place that I am
in my understanding. Bradley, you have anything?
I mean, yeah. Would you like me to repeat the
question? I was literally just talking to Jen
before. I was like, I'm nervous. Yeah, I like
wrote essays, you know, so that I wouldn't just
stutter up here. But yeah, so I mean, you asked
about barriers. What barriers are there? And
I think like the... just the collective history
of anti -queerness in the church is a barrier,
even in, like, relatively affirming spaces. You
know, like, it is, like, counter what the, like,
larger church, what we have all, or not all,
I guess, but what most of us have been taught
within the church. It's, like, counterintuitive
of that to be affirming. And so there's also,
like, so many, like... regressions happening
socially right now socially and politically and
that sort of thing which affects the church you
know like the church and the state are so interwoven
right now in the country in which we live and
so like it's so hard when like the larger community
of our nation and hand in hand the like capital
C church are like speaking so so boldly against
queerness and talking about removing rights that
have been here and taking steps backwards. The
things that we can do as Christians, whether
you're queer or not, are to interact with the
queer people in your life in a real way. Support
queer programming, especially since they're being
attacked right now. talk to people about your
beliefs. We talk about so many other things that
we believe, talking with your other Christian
friends, talking with your queer friends about
what you believe about queerness within the church.
Discussion is important, allyship is important,
as with any sort of social movement. It takes
both the people who are in that experience and
the people who are outside of that experience,
but standing with them for for progress to happen
and for tradition to be broken and that sort
of thing. So this is a series that every once
in a while someone will ask me, like, how do
you come up with what you guys are going to talk
about? I have a document, it's a note on my Apple
devices, and when I have an idea for a series,
I write it down, or I'll ask Jen for an idea,
things like that, and we'll just write it down
and we'll figure out when it might fit. This
is a series... that I started talking about the
idea for this series three years ago. And part
of the reason was because our church is diverse
in more than just black and white. Our church
is diverse in a multitude of different ways.
And I knew that over the years, there's certain
things that get talked about a lot. And so I
knew that it was... It was going to be coming
time where we needed to talk about this subject
more directly. And two years ago, I put it on
the calendar, and then there was something else
that was going on, and I was like, we need to
talk about that instead as a church. And then
last year, it was going to be in January, and
I was like, we need to start this year talking
about this other thing. And if you look at the
graphic, I told you there's some secrets in that
graphic. Imago Dei happens to be spelled D -E
-I. And you have unknowingly been bamboozled
into a series about diversity, equity, and inclusion.
But that had nothing to do with what was happening
in the world. Because you can ask Jen, you can
ask Scott, like the people that are on the regular
teaching team. I said, hey, I think it's going
to be time for us to do this series like last
fall. I was like, it's going to be time for us
to do that series. And then it was like, all
right, I was going to start the Sunday after
Easter. And I was like, you know what, let's
actually use Easter as the primer. And part of
this is because we're going to have the most
people here to hear it. And see, like, this is,
we are all, we all bear the image of God. And
behind the word Imago Dei is the Father and Adam
reaching out their hands to each other. And the
word safe, safer and safest. And then the color
scheme is the trans flag. Like, the church needs
to learn how to communicate in so many different
ways that you can be safe here. And no matter
who you are, we want this church to be a place
that is safe for you. There's going to be people
that don't understand you. There's going to be
people that don't get why you feel the way you
feel. And that's why we always say that Jesus
is the central thing. I talked to another friend,
this was probably a year and a half ago now,
where a gay man had started coming to the church.
And I was talking to someone else about that
experience for that person. And they said to
me, I didn't know that it was possible for a
church to do this. And I said, well, what do
you mean? And they said, to be as affirming as
we are is to still be about Jesus. And that's
really what we're trying to do. to be open to
everybody, but for this still to be about Jesus.
We still value the scriptures. We still believe
in God. And we want to point people to God with
every moment that we have together. But holding
things loosely with our hands open, understanding
that there might be things that have been interpreted
because of culture. There might be things that
we don't understand. And there might be things
that... God has space for us to go, you know
what? We're going to walk into this believing
that we can do this by faith. So if you have
questions about any of the things that we've
talked about over the last four and five weeks,
feel free to email me. I'm not afraid of your
emails. Feel free to connection card me. Whatever
it is, I'm happy to talk to you about any of
these things as the lead pastor of this church.
I'm willing to discuss any of these things. But
let's make sure that we are moving forward as
a church with kindness. You may not think it's
okay for a woman to preach. You may have grown
up in an environment where interracial couples
were wrong. You may have grown up believing that
if someone is disabled in any way, it's because
they didn't have enough faith. And you may have
grown up being taught... that there is no room
whatsoever for a man to love a man, for a woman
to love a woman, or for someone to have no desire
for physical affection in that way at all. And
we are going to make space for it, for everybody.
That's the promise that we're making. Not that
we will never get anything wrong internally with
each other, or even from this pulpit, but that
we're going to try. Amen? Amen. Will you please
thank our panel for joining us today? Thank you.