WEBVTT 00:00:01.159 --> 00:00:05.500 At this time, I want to welcome today's panel 00:00:05.500 --> 00:00:09.859 forward. Miss Africa Davis, Kathleen North, and 00:00:09.859 --> 00:00:12.779 Kelsey is going to come back up and join us for 00:00:12.779 --> 00:00:17.120 today's panel. We are all looking forward to 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:21.179 this very, very, very much. As they're coming 00:00:21.179 --> 00:00:23.120 forward, I'm going to do a little prep work as 00:00:23.120 --> 00:01:01.229 well. So, today is our panel on women. And I'm 00:01:01.229 --> 00:01:03.149 going to read to us a primer that we've been 00:01:03.149 --> 00:01:08.189 using for this series, Imago Dei. It has been 00:01:08.189 --> 00:01:11.530 the thing that has guided our discussion, that 00:01:11.530 --> 00:01:14.269 all people are made in the image of God, but 00:01:14.269 --> 00:01:17.370 there are those who have found themselves, unfortunately, 00:01:17.510 --> 00:01:23.030 marginalized. in many, many, many spaces globally 00:01:23.030 --> 00:01:27.069 and throughout history and society. So we want 00:01:27.069 --> 00:01:32.769 to highlight some areas that we could do better 00:01:32.769 --> 00:01:36.069 with as a church and hopefully even lead the 00:01:36.069 --> 00:01:42.409 way. Today is Mother's Day. It is the day that 00:01:42.409 --> 00:01:44.689 we have done our panel on women, but let us also 00:01:44.689 --> 00:01:48.230 as a church remember. that women exist outside 00:01:48.230 --> 00:01:52.290 of this holiday. And we want to do a good job 00:01:52.290 --> 00:01:56.629 honoring not just the women who have become mothers, 00:01:56.670 --> 00:01:58.629 but women in general. We want to remember them 00:01:58.629 --> 00:02:01.150 at the table. We want to remember them in conversation. 00:02:01.310 --> 00:02:04.049 We want to remember them in all areas of society. 00:02:04.150 --> 00:02:09.590 And so let us as a church lead the way on that. 00:02:10.289 --> 00:02:13.680 Our primer is this. The scriptures tell us that 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:15.639 from the beginning we were created in the image 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:18.680 of God, and so we bear the likeness of our creator, 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:21.919 every single one of us. This is why for many 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:24.180 years now our church website has said we welcome 00:02:24.180 --> 00:02:26.500 all persons and have no leadership limits based 00:02:26.500 --> 00:02:28.960 on race, gender, identity, sexual orientation, 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:32.139 or physical ability for those who confess Jesus 00:02:32.139 --> 00:02:37.340 is Lord. The central standard is Jesus. But because 00:02:37.340 --> 00:02:39.500 of how the Bible has been interpreted over the 00:02:39.500 --> 00:02:42.520 centuries, the church has often implicitly and 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:45.360 explicitly communicated that we do not all bear 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:48.840 the image of God or belong equally. Women have 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:51.020 been left out or excluded from leadership in 00:02:51.020 --> 00:02:53.680 the church historic. Gay, lesbian, trans, and 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:55.560 queer folk have been promised they can belong 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:58.219 so long as they fit in. People with differently 00:02:58.219 --> 00:03:00.900 abled bodies have often been excluded or treated 00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:03.719 less than because of their physical bodies, and 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:05.979 non -white cultures and ethnic groups have often 00:03:05.979 --> 00:03:08.219 been treated like they're only here to help the 00:03:08.219 --> 00:03:11.500 quote -unquote real image bearers. It sounds 00:03:11.500 --> 00:03:14.280 ugly because it is. It doesn't sound like Jesus 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:16.840 because it isn't. And so our panel discussions 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:19.919 during this Imago Dei series are meant to be 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:22.900 a kind of promise, not to perfection or to utopia, 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:26.080 and we aren't expecting full agreement for everyone 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:29.060 in the room about everything, but these conversations 00:03:29.060 --> 00:03:32.340 are a kind of promise that we are working and 00:03:32.340 --> 00:03:35.439 learning to be a community that is safe for people 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:38.699 pushed to the margins, people of color, women, 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:43.819 the disabled, and the LGBTQ plus person. because 00:03:43.819 --> 00:03:45.719 we're all created in the image of God and no 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:48.800 one should be left out. As we discuss what it 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:50.520 means for us to bear the image of God in the 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:52.800 church and in the world, and for the church to 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:54.719 be a safe place for us to grow in the likeness 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:59.240 of Jesus and the fullness of what God has created 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:02.199 us to be, will you please welcome our panel for 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:14.840 today. actually did some work on monday night 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:17.199 talking through some of these questions and the 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:19.920 conversation was so rich and full and then we 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:26.620 realized we've got 30 minutes and so um so we'd 00:04:26.620 --> 00:04:28.899 love to keep having this conversation further 00:04:28.899 --> 00:04:32.060 we all agreed on was this is a starting conversation 00:04:32.060 --> 00:04:36.079 that this is a starting point and from here we 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:39.500 want to continue to just keep the door open on 00:04:39.500 --> 00:04:41.040 those conversations. And I think that is the 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:43.060 case about this series, that this is not just 00:04:43.060 --> 00:04:45.339 a one -off and then we've had the conversation. 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:47.819 I think, Corey, you said it as well, that this 00:04:47.819 --> 00:04:50.579 is a starting point that we go from to realize 00:04:50.579 --> 00:04:54.209 we can talk about these things. We are a community 00:04:54.209 --> 00:04:56.610 that talks about things, we wrestle with things 00:04:56.610 --> 00:05:00.029 together, we understand, we listen. And so that 00:05:00.029 --> 00:05:03.110 is what we want to see happen from these conversations, 00:05:03.329 --> 00:05:06.230 that these are starting points. And if from these 00:05:06.230 --> 00:05:08.550 starting points you want to start with these 00:05:08.550 --> 00:05:11.329 women, that is okay. And then the conversations 00:05:11.329 --> 00:05:14.250 go out from there. You already know these are 00:05:14.250 --> 00:05:17.209 individuals who are ready and willing to talk 00:05:17.209 --> 00:05:20.769 and answer questions. And if that is a safe place 00:05:20.769 --> 00:05:24.300 to start, Great. And then you can learn how to 00:05:24.300 --> 00:05:26.160 carry these conversations into other places. 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:29.360 Because part of what has happened with marginalizing 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:32.019 various groups of people is we've gotten real 00:05:32.019 --> 00:05:34.639 quiet. We've gotten real quiet about talking 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:38.500 to or with others about these things because 00:05:38.500 --> 00:05:41.120 we don't know. Is it okay? Is it okay? Y 'all, 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:45.850 it's okay. And so... We are happy to continue 00:05:45.850 --> 00:05:49.470 this conversation past today. So I'm going to 00:05:49.470 --> 00:05:51.970 ask the first question, and when I do, I'm going 00:05:51.970 --> 00:05:54.470 to also have you guys introduce yourself personally 00:05:54.470 --> 00:05:58.230 with that. So how did you initially get connected 00:05:58.230 --> 00:06:05.170 to God and the church? My name is Kelsey Campbell. 00:06:05.269 --> 00:06:08.209 I grew up in the church. I grew up going to church 00:06:08.209 --> 00:06:13.420 with my parents and my siblings. My dad was an 00:06:13.420 --> 00:06:16.319 elder at our church, and I remember in high school 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:21.120 thinking, why is just dad an elder? Why isn't 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:23.720 mom? But I didn't have the critical thinking 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:26.620 skills at that point to dig into that. It was 00:06:26.620 --> 00:06:30.019 just I specifically remember having that thought 00:06:30.019 --> 00:06:33.990 when my dad was prayed in as an elder. And so 00:06:33.990 --> 00:06:35.610 grew up going to church, but it wasn't until 00:06:35.610 --> 00:06:38.870 I got to college where I had to make the choice 00:06:38.870 --> 00:06:40.509 to go to church on my own. My parents weren't 00:06:40.509 --> 00:06:42.750 telling me to go every Sunday, and I did make 00:06:42.750 --> 00:06:46.149 that choice. And that is kind of when my relationship 00:06:46.149 --> 00:06:50.189 with the Lord personally began, I would say. 00:06:53.629 --> 00:06:58.589 Hi, I'm Kathleen North, and I grew up going to 00:06:58.589 --> 00:07:04.160 church, similarly to Kelsey. I went to a church 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:07.680 where women were in leadership roles. One of 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:11.779 the pastors that was a big part of my spiritual 00:07:11.779 --> 00:07:14.439 guidance when I was growing up in the church 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:18.819 was a woman, and she was the head pastor. And 00:07:18.819 --> 00:07:22.480 we had elders and deacons who were also women, 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:26.899 and so that is kind of my foundation for church. 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:31.790 But when I went to college, I... I learned that 00:07:31.790 --> 00:07:34.250 people didn't have women in leadership in their 00:07:34.250 --> 00:07:35.750 churches sometimes, and that was a big shock 00:07:35.750 --> 00:07:40.550 for me. But I got involved in a campus ministry 00:07:40.550 --> 00:07:43.589 in college, and that was at a time when I had 00:07:43.589 --> 00:07:46.129 to decide between quite a few different ways. 00:07:46.389 --> 00:07:49.670 So I joined a sorority, and I joined a college 00:07:49.670 --> 00:07:52.129 campus ministry at the same time that believed 00:07:52.129 --> 00:07:54.629 Jesus loved Greeks. And so that was a huge part 00:07:54.629 --> 00:07:59.370 of how I got involved in the church and came 00:07:59.370 --> 00:08:03.579 to know Jesus. through those things. Good morning 00:08:03.579 --> 00:08:06.699 and happy Mother's Day. My name is Africa Melzine 00:08:06.699 --> 00:08:10.079 Davis and I started going to church with my grandmother 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:13.720 when I was a toddler. Shout out to Melzine Davis. 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:17.459 I still love you. I started going to church with 00:08:17.459 --> 00:08:19.720 her because she wanted to introduce me to God 00:08:19.720 --> 00:08:22.100 and not only the word of God, how we're supposed 00:08:22.100 --> 00:08:27.680 to be in the likeness of the Lord. She was just 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:30.360 a saint to me. I grew up writing poems about 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:34.080 how God -fearing she was. She introduced me to 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:38.379 not only church, but family, church family. So 00:08:38.379 --> 00:08:41.899 that's why I value the house to this day because 00:08:41.899 --> 00:08:44.600 this is a family to me and I love you guys very 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:51.419 much. With your experience, the world that we 00:08:51.419 --> 00:08:55.340 live in can be pretty male -driven. Being a woman 00:08:55.340 --> 00:09:00.009 in the world, take some navigation. How have 00:09:00.009 --> 00:09:05.210 you come to, has it been difficult or easy to 00:09:05.210 --> 00:09:08.570 come to terms with womanhood as it relates to 00:09:08.570 --> 00:09:13.750 how you walk through the world? I'll go ahead 00:09:13.750 --> 00:09:16.769 first on this. So I was reflecting on this a 00:09:16.769 --> 00:09:21.269 lot, and I realized that my experience of being 00:09:21.269 --> 00:09:24.820 a woman has been pretty... simple pretty easy 00:09:24.820 --> 00:09:28.779 and that is because of a lot of things i am white 00:09:28.779 --> 00:09:32.399 i am educated i come from finance a financially 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:35.840 stable background there are so many privileges 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:38.740 that i haven't earned and so i think that helps 00:09:38.740 --> 00:09:43.120 me to be to move through the world with fewer 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:51.080 barriers and fewer yeah i just have less to navigate 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:59.169 and So I was remembering that I got to be an 00:09:59.169 --> 00:10:01.509 honorary member of the Boy Scouts when I was 00:10:01.509 --> 00:10:04.830 a child. That was before girls could join, I 00:10:04.830 --> 00:10:08.169 believe. And I got to just join right in with 00:10:08.169 --> 00:10:11.289 the Boy Scouts and do all their activities and 00:10:11.289 --> 00:10:14.389 stuff. And so I felt accepted in that, even though 00:10:14.389 --> 00:10:19.870 I was separate still. And then later in college, 00:10:19.889 --> 00:10:22.659 as I mentioned, I joined a sorority. I just found 00:10:22.659 --> 00:10:24.580 different expressions of how I could be myself. 00:10:24.940 --> 00:10:30.960 And I have also experienced myself to be the 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:37.100 gender that I was born as with just my anatomy. 00:10:37.340 --> 00:10:40.159 So that would be, you know, I experienced the 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:43.720 world of being a cisgender straight person. So 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:47.480 that has been more natural for me. Again, fewer 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:55.919 barriers, fewer things to navigate. I would say 00:10:55.919 --> 00:11:00.879 my experience in a male -driven environment. 00:11:01.059 --> 00:11:04.799 I grew up in a church where women had most of 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:07.899 the responsibility or all of the responsibility 00:11:07.899 --> 00:11:14.399 with no control. There was always a gap between 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:17.480 the people who were responsible, which were the 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:21.320 women, and the people who made the rules. The 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:23.580 rules were just basically followed through with 00:11:23.580 --> 00:11:27.379 the word of God. But the women in my grandmother's 00:11:27.379 --> 00:11:31.440 church were the ones to make a statement and 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:34.059 make it easy for us to understand the word of 00:11:34.059 --> 00:11:36.940 God, who were there front and center to let us 00:11:36.940 --> 00:11:39.679 know that God loves us and that we have a responsibility 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.100 to follow through with the word and be good people. 00:11:43.259 --> 00:11:47.779 So I never really got a full male experience 00:11:47.779 --> 00:11:53.210 until I was an adult. the church, you know, watching 00:11:53.210 --> 00:11:56.909 Greg and everybody talk about how good God is. 00:11:57.029 --> 00:12:00.529 This is the first time for me. And I enjoy every 00:12:00.529 --> 00:12:03.429 bit of it because being a woman in a male driven 00:12:03.429 --> 00:12:07.269 environment, you can become obsolete. You can 00:12:07.269 --> 00:12:10.529 become very invisible. If they can't see you, 00:12:10.649 --> 00:12:14.049 you start to not know yourself. You start to 00:12:14.049 --> 00:12:16.629 not be able to see yourself and what you have 00:12:16.629 --> 00:12:20.370 to offer in the house of God. So yeah, it's, 00:12:20.370 --> 00:12:23.879 it wasn't, you know, perfect, but it was good 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:28.440 to see women take control of their own and to 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:31.559 be able to run through a male -driven environment, 00:12:31.740 --> 00:12:35.039 even though the odds were against them most of 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:37.679 the times. You know, their names weren't on things, 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:41.200 but our head pastors was, but they did all the 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:44.419 work, and I will always give commitment to them. 00:12:46.820 --> 00:12:49.639 To that point, I have a ton of resources that 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:51.490 I brought because I love... books and reading. 00:12:52.970 --> 00:12:55.950 Africa's point, women were often obsolete or 00:12:55.950 --> 00:12:59.149 invisible, is how you said it on Monday. And 00:12:59.149 --> 00:13:03.450 this book, Invisible Women, is about the lack 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:07.330 of data on women in the world and how that affects 00:13:07.330 --> 00:13:11.309 every area of our society. So I'm going to leave 00:13:11.309 --> 00:13:13.830 that up here, just if you want to take a picture 00:13:13.830 --> 00:13:16.350 of it or browse through it. It's really insightful. 00:13:16.850 --> 00:13:19.960 To your point about... being in a male -dominated 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:24.840 space. I was called to become a pastor when I 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:28.940 was 14, and I grew up in a church that was affirming 00:13:28.940 --> 00:13:31.240 of women in ministry. I was really, really fortunate. 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:35.460 But when I went to college, I was not ready for 00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:40.440 the array of different experiences people were 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:43.220 coming from, and for those of us who were studying 00:13:43.220 --> 00:13:45.340 to be pastors, what that was going to look like. 00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:49.970 And I remember talking to... one of my another 00:13:49.970 --> 00:13:52.029 person who was in the ministry track another 00:13:52.029 --> 00:13:58.289 woman and she stated something so overtly that 00:13:58.289 --> 00:14:03.769 was essentially like how to be like she was trying 00:14:03.769 --> 00:14:09.809 to replicate male pastoring but I said but you're 00:14:09.809 --> 00:14:14.809 a woman you're not a male pastor but I it it 00:14:15.100 --> 00:14:17.039 helped me recognize that that was sort of the 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:20.360 thing that we were experiencing, being surrounded 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:24.220 by all these men, a majority of men, and a majority 00:14:24.220 --> 00:14:27.200 of men in the field, that there were women coming 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.759 up in pastoral leadership courses that were looking 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:34.720 to replicate male leadership in the church. And 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:38.600 there wasn't a whole lot of examples of how to 00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:42.179 be a woman in ministry, and we had to forge our 00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:47.690 own way. Or recorded. Thank you. And that goes 00:14:47.690 --> 00:14:49.649 along with the invisible data. And I would love 00:14:49.649 --> 00:14:51.490 to actually hear you share a little bit more 00:14:51.490 --> 00:14:53.169 about that if you want to. Because I think you 00:14:53.169 --> 00:14:55.149 talked about that more on Monday night. Both 00:14:55.149 --> 00:14:59.669 of you did. But yeah, the recorded stories. I 00:14:59.669 --> 00:15:02.590 didn't know where to look. And it wasn't until 00:15:02.590 --> 00:15:06.990 I got to college that I started having to think 00:15:06.990 --> 00:15:10.629 through what it means to be a woman in a largely 00:15:10.629 --> 00:15:14.139 male -dominated space. Initially, I... And I 00:15:14.139 --> 00:15:16.379 grew up in the town where Susan B. Anthony was 00:15:16.379 --> 00:15:18.879 where she lived. Frederick Douglass lived there. 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:20.980 These are spaces where I was like, yes, we've 00:15:20.980 --> 00:15:25.519 made headway. And then I get to the church and 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:28.500 it's like, thank you, but no, you've got to figure 00:15:28.500 --> 00:15:32.100 out how to be a woman again. So it started as 00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:34.120 a natural place and then I had to figure it out 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:38.159 like in my 20s. I think even just the language 00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:41.389 that you used too, you said. your pastor courses 00:15:41.389 --> 00:15:45.409 and then you distinguish between female pastor 00:15:45.409 --> 00:15:48.149 like that language that is used is that it's 00:15:48.149 --> 00:15:50.549 assumed that a pastor is a male and you had to 00:15:50.549 --> 00:15:54.450 identify you had to put the word female in front 00:15:54.450 --> 00:15:58.269 of that and how often does that happen where 00:15:58.269 --> 00:16:01.549 you have it's called the default male that you 00:16:01.549 --> 00:16:04.490 have the statement and then you have to add female 00:16:04.490 --> 00:16:07.610 to it to designate that this is a woman doing 00:16:07.610 --> 00:16:16.120 it Stay alert of that. I've always loved being 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:20.820 a woman. I've never questioned that. I love femininity 00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:26.539 and living in dresses. I was telling Jen, I think 00:16:26.539 --> 00:16:29.240 it was actually just last Sunday. Something I've 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:30.679 really wrestled with, though, since becoming 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:34.779 a mom is I love being home with my kids. And 00:16:34.779 --> 00:16:37.159 I feel like that is where I'm called to be. I 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:39.659 love nurturing them and raising them and loving 00:16:39.659 --> 00:16:43.539 them. And I really wrestled with, like, am I 00:16:43.539 --> 00:16:45.759 no longer a feminist because I've become the 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:49.220 stay -at -home mom and I love it? And kind of 00:16:49.220 --> 00:16:51.940 really just had to realize the power for me was 00:16:51.940 --> 00:16:55.299 that that was my choice. Like, that was a choice 00:16:55.299 --> 00:16:56.840 that was made for me. That was not something 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:00.200 that... Alex said, you have to stay home with 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:05.400 our kids now. It was my choice. And for me, that's 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:09.960 where I find empowerment. And that is the choice 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:13.220 that I made. And I have friends who also have 00:17:13.220 --> 00:17:15.019 kids, and they are working. And that is the choice 00:17:15.019 --> 00:17:18.279 that they made. And I feel so thankful that I 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:20.519 was able to make that choice, that we have the 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:23.339 financial means of being able to do that, because 00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:28.329 I do know that that's a privilege as well. And 00:17:28.329 --> 00:17:31.750 largely, women walking through the world often 00:17:31.750 --> 00:17:35.470 have to define themselves or are asked to define 00:17:35.470 --> 00:17:39.829 themselves by a male standard, how they relate 00:17:39.829 --> 00:17:42.990 in the world to a standard that has already been 00:17:42.990 --> 00:17:47.869 set in maleness. But that is not God's design. 00:17:48.329 --> 00:17:51.910 God has designed us separately and differently 00:17:51.910 --> 00:17:56.049 and uniquely. we've had to navigate what that's 00:17:56.049 --> 00:17:58.450 like living in a male -driven world, or in some 00:17:58.450 --> 00:18:01.869 male -driven spaces, but how do you experience 00:18:01.869 --> 00:18:08.910 God and your affirmation of who you are with 00:18:08.910 --> 00:18:12.049 God? How do you think God feels about you as 00:18:12.049 --> 00:18:15.170 a woman? Has that changed over time? And is there 00:18:15.170 --> 00:18:17.109 a place that you specifically go in the scriptures 00:18:17.109 --> 00:18:19.210 to remind yourself of what God really thinks 00:18:19.210 --> 00:18:33.109 of you? Okay. I feel as though God has not only 00:18:33.109 --> 00:18:39.589 allowed women to be the sunshine to a man's moon. 00:18:40.150 --> 00:18:45.329 We are partners. We are loved by him unconditionally. 00:18:45.549 --> 00:18:49.329 And that's crazy because we as humans, we have 00:18:49.329 --> 00:18:51.690 conditions to be loved. I was actually having 00:18:51.690 --> 00:18:54.190 this conversation earlier, and I was saying my 00:18:54.190 --> 00:18:56.210 love is not unconditional unless it's towards 00:18:56.210 --> 00:19:01.670 God. I require respect, and that is definitely 00:19:01.670 --> 00:19:04.809 something that in a male -driven environment 00:19:04.809 --> 00:19:08.910 has to be the forefront. It has to be something 00:19:08.910 --> 00:19:14.029 we have to come to as this is what I want from 00:19:14.029 --> 00:19:16.069 this environment, and this is what I deserve. 00:19:16.349 --> 00:19:19.730 But it's often shut down because we can be called 00:19:19.730 --> 00:19:24.380 aggressive. Or we can be ignored because, you 00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:28.700 know, conflict in the church when I was growing 00:19:28.700 --> 00:19:34.119 up was just non -existent as recorded. But it 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:38.400 definitely existed. A place that I go through 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:41.759 in scriptures, I was telling Jen and everybody 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.380 else that I wanted to go to Ruth so bad. Because, 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:48.420 you know, she stood her ground. She got her man 00:19:48.420 --> 00:19:51.460 and she kept it pushing, baby. She said, this 00:19:51.460 --> 00:19:54.339 is mine and I got it now. But I instantly went 00:19:54.339 --> 00:20:01.319 back to Sarah and Hagar. Because I feel in these 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:05.660 times that this is what we go through. A tug 00:20:05.660 --> 00:20:08.960 of war between men and women and women and men. 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:13.779 Especially in 2025. There's a border between 00:20:13.779 --> 00:20:19.140 us. And I feel that a woman like Sarah, who looked 00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:22.740 at Hagar as an extension to a person that she 00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:26.819 loved and deemed responsible for her happiness, 00:20:26.900 --> 00:20:31.220 had an extension like Hagar to have a child by, 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:37.170 open up the world to God's grace. That there 00:20:37.170 --> 00:20:39.930 are people out here that can bear children and 00:20:39.930 --> 00:20:43.450 love each other all at once. But I feel that 00:20:43.450 --> 00:20:47.809 Sarah was more of a person who wanted it to be 00:20:47.809 --> 00:20:51.049 her and only her. And a lot of the times I feel 00:20:51.049 --> 00:20:53.529 like that's what's happening today. We can't 00:20:53.529 --> 00:20:57.029 share God's grace. And I'm saying women versus 00:20:57.029 --> 00:20:59.829 women right now. There shouldn't be that. There's 00:20:59.829 --> 00:21:02.809 already a male -dominated environment throughout 00:21:02.809 --> 00:21:05.470 the world that, not saying all males. Oh, you 00:21:05.470 --> 00:21:09.069 guys are beautiful. I love you guys. But other 00:21:09.069 --> 00:21:12.670 people feel that, like I said, women are obsolete. 00:21:12.690 --> 00:21:16.490 And that type of drama between women versus women 00:21:16.490 --> 00:21:20.109 doesn't make anything better for us. So I feel 00:21:20.109 --> 00:21:23.819 like that has changed. Maybe just a little bit. 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:26.339 We're getting better, but the more we speak on 00:21:26.339 --> 00:21:33.579 this topic, it shall continue to grow. I'll jump 00:21:33.579 --> 00:21:41.119 in here. Since I came to recognize that Jesus 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:44.539 loved me, I was 14 when that was the case, and 00:21:44.539 --> 00:21:50.559 that was never an issue for me to recognize that 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:55.119 God loved me. When it talks about how it changed 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:58.960 over time, it grew. My confidence, how I saw 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:01.720 myself, because I saw myself as quite low, small, 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:10.500 unvaluable. The transformation in my life about 00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:13.539 how I see myself because of how God saw me and 00:22:13.539 --> 00:22:17.000 how I was able to move in the world is huge. 00:22:17.220 --> 00:22:23.029 It's such a testimony. When I talk about where 00:22:23.029 --> 00:22:25.369 I go in the scriptures to remind myself of what 00:22:25.369 --> 00:22:28.650 God really thinks about me, I am so encouraged 00:22:28.650 --> 00:22:32.890 by the women in the New Testament that were the 00:22:32.890 --> 00:22:37.789 early church leaders. And there is no word about 00:22:37.789 --> 00:22:40.869 any of their attachments. We don't know if Phoebe 00:22:40.869 --> 00:22:44.269 was married. We don't know if Junia was married. 00:22:44.329 --> 00:22:46.529 We don't know about Lydia because it didn't matter. 00:22:46.849 --> 00:22:50.880 Their attachments didn't matter. i'm encouraged 00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:53.900 by that because we have defined women so much 00:22:53.900 --> 00:22:56.720 about who they're attached to um and who they're 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:01.440 connected to and i'm i'm just not like i'm not 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:03.819 um i'm not a married woman i'm not going to be 00:23:03.819 --> 00:23:09.579 a mom in the traditional sense um and so seeing 00:23:09.579 --> 00:23:12.880 these women in scripture that were identified 00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:16.420 as leaders not because of who they were attached 00:23:16.420 --> 00:23:21.970 to but because they had their own Their own fullness 00:23:21.970 --> 00:23:26.410 of identity was huge for me. So those are women 00:23:26.410 --> 00:23:29.150 in particular that stand out to me in scripture. 00:23:29.269 --> 00:23:31.410 It doesn't necessarily mean that we have to choose 00:23:31.410 --> 00:23:34.230 these women, but how do we see ourselves represented 00:23:34.230 --> 00:23:41.730 in scripture? This is how I see it for me. I'll 00:23:41.730 --> 00:23:45.490 share a little bit more about myself. So the 00:23:45.490 --> 00:23:47.950 question, what do you think God feels about you 00:23:47.950 --> 00:23:53.539 as a woman? Up until recently, I feel like I 00:23:53.539 --> 00:23:56.359 didn't fully understand that I was a woman. That 00:23:56.359 --> 00:23:59.779 sounds very strange to say, but I had such a 00:23:59.779 --> 00:24:04.480 confident childhood upbringing and I could flow 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:08.799 between different groups just fine. It wasn't 00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:13.279 until I experienced fertility adventures, we'll 00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:18.039 call it, that I really understood that I was 00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:22.440 a woman. And not all women have biological parts 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:24.960 that can create children. But my husband and 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:27.660 I had hoped that we would have a third child. 00:24:27.900 --> 00:24:34.700 And it wasn't until I had a very traumatic emergency 00:24:34.700 --> 00:24:36.980 department stay for over 10 hours waiting for 00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:40.900 care. And then we learned that I had a pregnancy 00:24:40.900 --> 00:24:42.920 growing outside of the uterus that had to be 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:47.819 surgically removed in an emergent way. It's a 00:24:47.819 --> 00:24:49.720 long story and I'll tell you about it sometime 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:52.299 if you want to know more about it but the main 00:24:52.299 --> 00:24:57.000 part of that was that I hadn't fully understood 00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:01.480 that I was holding on to some of my worth as 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:04.119 it was attached to being a mother and performing 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:08.079 womanhood that way and there were consequences 00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:11.460 of that event that over the months played out 00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:16.529 and really broke that down for me. So that was 00:25:16.529 --> 00:25:20.970 with the help of a physician and nurses and my 00:25:20.970 --> 00:25:26.289 family who saw me made in God's image and worked 00:25:26.289 --> 00:25:29.789 really hard to help me to see who God was. And 00:25:29.789 --> 00:25:35.049 that in addition to my worth not being tied to 00:25:35.049 --> 00:25:40.349 being able to have children, I also fully for 00:25:40.349 --> 00:25:41.809 the first time realized that I didn't have to 00:25:41.809 --> 00:25:45.660 do anything. I could just be me. So I've been 00:25:45.660 --> 00:25:48.059 really enjoying having that experience for the 00:25:48.059 --> 00:25:52.579 last couple of years now. And yeah, so in the 00:25:52.579 --> 00:25:58.420 scriptures, I don't look to, like I love the 00:25:58.420 --> 00:26:00.599 leaders, the women leaders in scripture, but 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:04.140 what comes to mind for me is the woman who bled 00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:11.039 for 12 years. And here's my emotional support 00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:17.119 papers. So in Matthew 9, 22, Jesus turned and 00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:19.339 saw her. Take heart, daughter, he said. Your 00:26:19.339 --> 00:26:21.200 faith has healed you. And the woman was healed 00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:24.859 at that moment. And I think that's beautiful 00:26:24.859 --> 00:26:29.619 because Jesus was fully God, fully human, knew 00:26:29.619 --> 00:26:34.920 that there are parts in people's bodies that 00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:37.319 bleed, and he didn't shy away from that, and 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:42.940 he... said that her faith healed her. And yeah, 00:26:43.019 --> 00:26:45.519 so Jesus acknowledged it, but I feel like we 00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:48.619 have a long way to come in just general women's 00:26:48.619 --> 00:26:54.819 health. And, you know, with the NIH ending contracts 00:26:54.819 --> 00:26:58.160 recently for one of the largest studies for women's 00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:04.039 health, that happened recently. Yeah, so Jesus 00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:06.859 was on it, but maybe we are not so much right 00:27:06.859 --> 00:27:10.009 now. I'm going to insert some statistics here. 00:27:10.630 --> 00:27:13.609 So there's a significant research gap in women's 00:27:13.609 --> 00:27:15.869 health with less funding and research dedicated 00:27:15.869 --> 00:27:18.190 to conditions primarily affecting women compared 00:27:18.190 --> 00:27:21.430 to those affecting men. Black women in the U 00:27:21.430 --> 00:27:24.490 .S. experience a significantly higher maternal 00:27:24.490 --> 00:27:28.250 mortality rate compared to white women with the 00:27:28.250 --> 00:27:32.529 rate being about 2 .6 times higher. And in 2023, 00:27:32.750 --> 00:27:34.990 the maternal mortality rate for black women was... 00:27:35.230 --> 00:27:38.529 50 .3 deaths per 100 ,000 live births, while 00:27:38.529 --> 00:27:43.910 the rate for white women was 14 .5. White female 00:27:43.910 --> 00:27:46.470 patients are twice as likely as male patients 00:27:46.470 --> 00:27:49.089 to die within one year of a heart attack. They 00:27:49.089 --> 00:27:51.210 are also less likely to be prescribed preventative 00:27:51.210 --> 00:27:54.109 treatment because when they go to the doctor, 00:27:54.230 --> 00:27:59.289 what are they told, women? Who's ever been told 00:27:59.289 --> 00:28:03.559 that? That's the... But men in the same condition 00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:05.519 are not told to lose weight and their pain is 00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:09.160 taken seriously. Whereas women have to often 00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:12.440 go through months to years to get doctors to 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:17.099 hear their cries for help when it comes to pain. 00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:20.599 It takes an average of seven to ten years for 00:28:20.599 --> 00:28:23.259 a patient with endometriosis to receive an accurate 00:28:23.259 --> 00:28:25.779 diagnosis, but the frequent dismissal and belittling 00:28:25.779 --> 00:28:27.740 of pain is present in all women's health care. 00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:30.920 Women are less likely to be given painkillers 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:36.630 than men. And you brought up the statistic last 00:28:36.630 --> 00:28:39.549 time we talked that women's health had not been 00:28:39.549 --> 00:28:44.250 studied overall and in earnest until the 1980s 00:28:44.250 --> 00:28:47.410 and 90s. That's when major studies started beginning 00:28:47.410 --> 00:28:52.650 for women's health. And so to that, when we recognize 00:28:52.650 --> 00:28:57.509 that Jesus saw women for their full bodies, that's 00:28:57.509 --> 00:29:06.460 an important point to take. In your experience, 00:29:06.539 --> 00:29:09.599 have you felt more othered or affirmed? So othered 00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:12.359 or affirmed by Christianity or the church because 00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:14.519 of your gender? And is there a story you'd feel 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:25.259 comfortable sharing? I can share. So because 00:29:25.259 --> 00:29:30.259 I am a woman, I feel like I have had roles, gender 00:29:30.259 --> 00:29:35.630 roles placed on me. And so one such story is 00:29:35.630 --> 00:29:38.269 I used to work for a nonprofit before I had kids. 00:29:38.390 --> 00:29:40.730 It's a Christian organization, and so I had a 00:29:40.730 --> 00:29:45.250 Christian volunteer. And we were just chatting 00:29:45.250 --> 00:29:48.289 before a program, and I had made the comment 00:29:48.289 --> 00:29:51.849 about, you know, going home that night to eat 00:29:51.849 --> 00:29:53.789 dinner with Alex and how he would have dinner 00:29:53.789 --> 00:29:56.829 ready to go at 8, 830 whenever I got home because 00:29:56.829 --> 00:30:00.759 it was a second shift job. And she was surprised 00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:03.460 by that and kind of, she's like, you don't cook 00:30:03.460 --> 00:30:06.960 dinner? And I said, I don't get home until 8 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:09.779 or 8 .30. No, like, no, it's hot and ready to 00:30:09.779 --> 00:30:12.680 go when I get home. And she was like, oh, well, 00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:15.160 do you get up and make him his breakfast or pack 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:19.700 his lunch for work? And I was like, no, he does 00:30:19.700 --> 00:30:24.170 that. And so she offered to send me recipes for 00:30:24.170 --> 00:30:28.329 easy dinners that I could make for my husband. 00:30:29.089 --> 00:30:32.269 And I was like, you know, I don't like cooking. 00:30:32.490 --> 00:30:35.869 Alex is gifted in that way. He's a very good 00:30:35.869 --> 00:30:40.579 cook, and I don't want to. But it was something 00:30:40.579 --> 00:30:43.279 I really wrestled with, and Alex actually reminded 00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:44.759 me that it was something I wrestled with for 00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:46.619 a long time. Like now, because it's been so many 00:30:46.619 --> 00:30:49.119 years removed, and I feel very confident in my 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.940 non -cooking skills, that it's easy to kind of 00:30:52.940 --> 00:30:55.319 brush off. But it definitely made me question, 00:30:55.539 --> 00:30:58.519 you know, am I being a good wife? I'm not cooking 00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:02.160 my husband his food? And I was like, that was 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:04.920 such a silly thing. Like, that's a gender role 00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:08.000 that has been placed, that was placed on me. 00:31:09.940 --> 00:31:14.960 That is not true. That's a worldly thing, and 00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:16.720 that has nothing to do with me being a woman 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:19.299 and my lack of cooking skills. And in terms of 00:31:19.299 --> 00:31:22.220 a partnership, a household takes on the various 00:31:22.220 --> 00:31:25.920 roles that it takes on. You don't want to assign 00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:28.039 them just because this is what is traditional 00:31:28.039 --> 00:31:31.200 when it doesn't actually work as a system for 00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:36.319 the house. Anyone else? Okay. I'm actually gonna 00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:38.880 jump ahead to our last question because I think 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:44.299 that there's some significant value to, because 00:31:44.299 --> 00:31:46.940 it's very solutions oriented and forward thinking. 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:49.980 So what do you think are some barriers that prevent 00:31:49.980 --> 00:31:52.440 churches from being fully inclusive of women 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:55.160 and their leadership abilities? And what do you 00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:57.220 think are the practical steps that individuals 00:31:57.220 --> 00:31:59.980 and our community can take to ensure that women 00:31:59.980 --> 00:32:07.190 know they are valued, heard, and embraced? I'll 00:32:07.190 --> 00:32:11.029 start off with the practical steps is keep the 00:32:11.029 --> 00:32:17.390 conversation open and affirm that women are here. 00:32:17.910 --> 00:32:20.829 We are in the church, too. We hold roles and 00:32:20.829 --> 00:32:23.150 responsibilities just like everybody else. But 00:32:23.150 --> 00:32:29.950 to be affirmed of that, you've done this. Like, 00:32:29.970 --> 00:32:32.829 Jen, you've done a wonderful job leading this 00:32:32.829 --> 00:32:36.220 church. And you may not be a physical mother, 00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:39.119 but you have mothered my son into submission. 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:46.700 So thank you for helping me raise my child. But 00:32:46.700 --> 00:32:50.200 the barriers that exist are just that. They still 00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:54.779 exist. So I would just say keep talking. Keep 00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:56.839 letting it be known that we are here and we're 00:32:56.839 --> 00:32:58.720 not just cave women being pulled by our nappy 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:03.180 ponytail. Like, we are. good people and so are 00:33:03.180 --> 00:33:05.980 the men around us so if we all just come together 00:33:05.980 --> 00:33:11.079 and keep keep um keep ourselves open to the possibility 00:33:11.079 --> 00:33:14.440 that there is growth there then women have a 00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:16.839 chance to prosper within the church yes well 00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:19.819 and you had said i mean your statement earlier 00:33:19.819 --> 00:33:24.880 about women had um a lot of this they spoke up 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:26.440 they had a lot of voice but they had no power 00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:29.000 because they weren't invited to be at the table 00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.119 where decisions were being made and where conversations 00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:35.839 were being had, big and little, because even 00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:38.160 what is considered little affects the big things 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:41.720 in many places. It gave servitude. That's what 00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:44.359 it gave. It gave servitude. And I don't know 00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:46.039 about everybody else, but I'm not walking around 00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:50.539 with a platter unless God's name is on it. So, 00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:53.140 you know, my grandmother did what she had to 00:33:53.140 --> 00:33:56.000 do. I'm not going to shun her for anything. You 00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:58.740 know, she stood there and she took what she could 00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:01.880 to, give the word of the Lord to especially us 00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:05.200 as children. So I will never diminish the work 00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:07.220 that these women have done, but they deserved 00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:14.079 better. They did. I would say knowing our history, 00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:17.800 whether that's women's history in general or 00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:22.579 specifically women in the Bible. And I think 00:34:22.579 --> 00:34:25.159 Kathleen brought a book, which is really good, 00:34:25.219 --> 00:34:28.559 The Making of Biblical Womanhood. Highly recommend. 00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:35.079 It talks about the early leaders of the church, 00:34:35.219 --> 00:34:37.340 and there were female leaders of the church, 00:34:37.500 --> 00:34:43.019 but were not taught about them, or they are just 00:34:43.019 --> 00:34:49.340 brushed aside as, oh, Phoebe wasn't a deacon 00:34:49.340 --> 00:34:52.559 in the terms like the men were. She was just 00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:56.670 a leader. But it was the same word. used to describe 00:34:56.670 --> 00:35:00.469 the male deacons as she was given. I was actually, 00:35:00.590 --> 00:35:03.429 last night when I was reading in preparation 00:35:03.429 --> 00:35:08.929 for this, in Romans 16, the NLT version has switched 00:35:08.929 --> 00:35:12.469 Junia's name to Junius. That's still 2025, and 00:35:12.469 --> 00:35:15.809 this is a female, but we have made her name a 00:35:15.809 --> 00:35:18.449 male's name because it couldn't possibly be a 00:35:18.449 --> 00:35:21.829 woman that Paul is writing about. She's named 00:35:21.829 --> 00:35:27.159 an apostle. historically churches have said apostles 00:35:27.159 --> 00:35:30.400 are men. And so they have literally in translations 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:33.780 taken the step to say this couldn't have possibly 00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:36.579 be a woman because it was an apostle. So there 00:35:36.579 --> 00:35:39.860 must be a typo. It must be Junius instead of 00:35:39.860 --> 00:35:42.519 just saying Junia was an apostle. And that's 00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:46.019 not just like a, oh, like there's historical 00:35:46.019 --> 00:35:48.820 evidence that she was a female. And so knowing 00:35:48.820 --> 00:35:53.480 our church's history with a woman who... We've 00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:55.800 always been here. Women have always been a part 00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:57.400 of the church and leading in the church. We maybe 00:35:57.400 --> 00:35:59.500 just don't know their stories because they haven't 00:35:59.500 --> 00:36:03.019 been recorded. And another just a small thing 00:36:03.019 --> 00:36:06.420 that I've consciously kind of tried to do is 00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:09.699 our kids call adults Miss or Mister, but they 00:36:09.699 --> 00:36:12.780 know it is Pastor Greg and it is Pastor Jen. 00:36:13.059 --> 00:36:17.219 And my hope for them is that they are just used 00:36:17.219 --> 00:36:22.119 to hearing Pastor Jen. Like it's not... They 00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:24.500 don't ever question if a woman could be a pastor 00:36:24.500 --> 00:36:28.639 because they grow up seeing Pastor Greg and Pastor 00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:31.039 Jen. And it's not Miss Jen, it's Pastor Jen. 00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:36.079 I want to add just one quick thing on to what 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:38.219 Kelsey was saying about learning our history. 00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:42.079 One of my favorite parts of the Making a Biblical 00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:43.860 Womanhood book, I have it bookmarked up here 00:36:43.860 --> 00:36:47.860 if you want to come read the actual page. I learned 00:36:47.860 --> 00:36:50.440 about the different translations of the Bible 00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.500 and how they were written and in what context 00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:56.300 they were written in and how the King James Version 00:36:56.300 --> 00:36:59.199 made it really accessible for a lot of people 00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:01.480 to read the Bible, but it also changed the language 00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:05.920 to more man -men focused, son instead of daughters. 00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:13.019 And then later, the NIV was made to be more inclusive. 00:37:13.789 --> 00:37:16.090 but it was just going back to what the original 00:37:16.090 --> 00:37:20.250 language was, more inclusive of humankind, people, 00:37:20.570 --> 00:37:23.590 they. And so I think that it's really important 00:37:23.590 --> 00:37:28.809 to understand the history of where did our Bible 00:37:28.809 --> 00:37:32.349 translation come from, in what context was it 00:37:32.349 --> 00:37:35.389 written, and how can we understand that now, 00:37:35.449 --> 00:37:40.130 today? When the NIV translation did move to a 00:37:40.130 --> 00:37:45.019 more inclusive and true to... manuscript translation 00:37:45.019 --> 00:37:52.719 the the church was crazy there was so much if 00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:54.519 you were around it was like the late 90s early 00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:57.900 2000s I think that some that language went back 00:37:57.900 --> 00:38:02.880 to being the original when it said man mankind 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:07.280 or humankind or men and women people were in 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:11.449 uproar if they came from a a very conservative 00:38:11.449 --> 00:38:14.110 background, not realizing that the history is, 00:38:14.269 --> 00:38:17.570 that's actually the truer version of the language. 00:38:18.070 --> 00:38:21.190 And so we have to ask questions of translations. 00:38:21.469 --> 00:38:25.369 We have to ask questions of history and of interpretation. 00:38:26.250 --> 00:38:31.769 Because we do look to the scriptures as the story 00:38:31.769 --> 00:38:34.840 of God that we lean into to tell us. how God 00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:37.400 sees us, and how he loves us, and the stories 00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:40.199 there are true, but we have to ask questions 00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:42.960 of the translations. We have to ask questions 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:45.639 of the history. Don't just assume that what you 00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:50.079 have is this direct from Paul and Jesus' mouth. 00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:54.940 Ask questions. That is okay to do. We are going 00:38:54.940 --> 00:38:58.260 to wrap this up here, but again, this conversation... 00:38:58.489 --> 00:39:01.110 does continue. We had more questions. We have 00:39:01.110 --> 00:39:03.269 more things that we'd love to discuss. I'm going 00:39:03.269 --> 00:39:05.869 to put books out on the table. Kathleen's book 00:39:05.869 --> 00:39:07.489 is going to be up here too with her highlights. 00:39:07.670 --> 00:39:10.610 We are both conversationalists with our books. 00:39:11.090 --> 00:39:15.769 I know Kelsey is as well. And so, yeah, please 00:39:15.769 --> 00:39:17.670 come take a look at these things. We are going 00:39:17.670 --> 00:39:21.969 to move to communion now. Oh, baptism is before 00:39:21.969 --> 00:39:25.050 communion. But I am going to pray for us as we 00:39:25.050 --> 00:39:28.829 transition to that. So, Lord, we are grateful 00:39:28.829 --> 00:39:35.250 that you see all of us completely, that you see 00:39:35.250 --> 00:39:39.230 us all fully, and that there is nothing that 00:39:39.230 --> 00:39:44.769 separates us from you. And in you, even though 00:39:44.769 --> 00:39:51.510 you have designed us fully in every way, we are 00:39:51.510 --> 00:39:54.190 so grateful that there is no hierarchy. There 00:39:54.190 --> 00:39:59.210 is no... Yeah, the fight that has been created 00:39:59.210 --> 00:40:04.469 in history about where people belong is not one 00:40:04.469 --> 00:40:07.050 we want to perpetuate. It's not an idea we want 00:40:07.050 --> 00:40:09.050 to perpetuate. And we want to be a place that 00:40:09.050 --> 00:40:13.690 is safe for all people. As we reflect on today's 00:40:13.690 --> 00:40:15.690 discussion, we want to be a place that's safe 00:40:15.690 --> 00:40:18.530 for women. The church has not always been that. 00:40:18.769 --> 00:40:23.980 So guide us in all truth, God. We are asking 00:40:23.980 --> 00:40:26.559 for your leadership and guidance in these things 00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:29.539 and that we would be brave with the conversations 00:40:29.539 --> 00:40:33.739 and brave with our own critical thinking and 00:40:33.739 --> 00:40:36.639 open to your spirit as you lead us forward into 00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:39.440 a better way. We pray this in your name. Amen. 00:40:39.500 --> 00:40:40.440 Let's thank our panel.