As they're getting comfortable, I'll read through
an intro that we're going to have for each one
of our panels. So I'll read that and then we'll
get started. Like I said, good morning. My name
is Scott. We're in the third week of our Imago
Dei series. As our panelists come up and get
settled in, we have a primer we want to read.
at the top of each of our panel discussions is
a way of setting the stage. The scriptures tell
us that from the beginning, we were created in
the image of God, and so we bear the likeness
of our creator, every single one of us. This
is why for many years now, our church website
has said, we welcome all persons and have no
leadership limits based on race, gender, identity,
sexual orientation, or physical ability. for
those who confess Jesus Christ as Lord. The central
standard is Jesus. But because of how the Bible
has been interpreted over the centuries, the
church has often implicitly and explicitly communicated
that we do not all bear the image of God or belong
equally. Women have been left out or excluded
from leadership in the church historic. Gay,
lesbian, trans, and queer folk have been promised
they can belong so long as they fit in. People
with differently abled bodies have often been
excluded or treated less than because of their
physical bodies. And non -white cultures and
ethnic groups have often been treated like they're
only here to help the quote -unquote real image
bearers. It sounds ugly because it is. It doesn't
sound like Jesus because it isn't. And so our
panel discussions during the Imago Dei series
are meant to be a kind of promise, not to perfection
or utopia. And we aren't expecting full agreement
for everyone in the room about everything. But
these conversations are a kind of promise that
we are working and learning to be a community
that is safe. for people pushed to the margins,
people of color, women, the disabled, and the
LGBTQ plus person, because we are all created
in the image of God, and no one should be left
out. As we all discuss what it means for us to
bear the image of God in the church and in the
world, and for the church to be a safe place
for us to grow in the likeness of Jesus, and
the fullness of what God has created us to be,
will you please welcome our panel for today?
I'm going to start all the way down to the end
with you, Dave, and then Kathy and Liam will
go to you. If each of you would introduce yourselves
and your friends and why you're participating
in this panel, that would be great. So this is
Sweetie Paw, when you guys recognize and know
her. And my name's Dave Hodge. I'm here kind
of just as her dad and to talk about it from
a parent's perspective. And Sweetie will interject
with laughs and probably chomps throughout the
whole entire thing. So do you want to say anything?
I'm Kathy Webb. I am here because I have several
different invisible or non -apparent disabilities.
I'm William. You all probably know me as Liam.
And what did I need to say? I've got some physical
disabilities in my arm. And then like my back
too. So yeah. All right. Thank you. And again,
my name is Scott. I had a spinal cord injury
about 10 years ago. So this year is my anniversary
10 year of being in a chair. And then I also
am the parent of a child with a disability. Our
daughter that we were able to adopt in November,
but have been caring for since birth and will
be three this month has Rett syndrome. which
affects her speech and her physical abilities
as well. How did you initially get connected
to God and church? And this time, Liam, if I
can start with you, you can share, and then we'll
go down and through. I mean, my dad is Pastor
Greg, so I... Yeah, I grew up here pretty much.
I've always known, like God and stuff. So yeah,
that's all. Yeah, so my parents come from two
very different Christian faith traditions. So
they got married and didn't know what to do or
where to go. So they didn't go anywhere. And
then I was invited to a vacation Bible school
when I was six. And we started attending that
church afterwards. Yeah, and I was raised by
both my parents from a very young age going to
church. They always taught our kids clubs and
Sunday school class and was a part of a program
that did verse memorization as a kid, like an
Awanas program. And I remember being seven years
old and just asking my mom what a verse meant
and how to explain it to me and accept your Christ
at that point. And then it has always been a
place of safety in my life and community the
church has just kind of. Moving around a lot
and getting involved in ministry. Also went on
to college and got a degree in ministry. Have
been a part of a lot of nonprofits and stuff.
And then Sweetie came into our care and has been
with us for going on six years almost now. So
yeah, so she's just kind of been a part of our
lives since then. Awesome. And for me, similar
to Liam, I'm a pastor's kid. So I was at church
every Sunday for as long as I can remember. whether
I wanted to be there or not, and it stuck. I
like being there, so I'm still there and still
a part. I'll start with you again, Liam. Have
you found it difficult or natural to accept how
you were made or your current physicality? I
feel like since... I mean, like, yeah, I guess
I've been this way for the majority of my life.
So if it is natural, it's just because it's,
like, most of what I've known, I guess. So, yeah,
I guess I would say, like, I've come natural
to it. So you've gotten comfortable with, you
know, the body that you have. Yeah, I make do
with it. Both. There are some parts of me that
are easier than others. So I think, like, I have
a chronic pain disability, amongst some other
things, and that one tends to be weirdly easier
to deal with with other people, but not as easy
with myself. So it just depends on the circumstances
and with whom I'm speaking as to whether or not
certain parts of me are easier or more difficult.
Yeah, and so for Sweetie, she's nonverbal. has
some developmental delay, has white matter changes.
And so, you know, asking her questions, sweetie,
do you love being sweetie? She's very happy all
the time. This is her demeanor, who she is. From
our parents' perspective, I mean, we have been
all in with her from the very beginning in life.
We've learned a lot and grown a lot, especially
around the ideas of faith. Just processing her
and who she is through faith. And so I think
we're at a very accepting place in our lives
with her and who she is. And we're always learning.
I mean, she's new every day. Yeah, thank you.
For me, it really depends on the day and situation.
There's days that I wake up and think, you know,
hey, this is the situation I'm in. It's okay.
I'm so grateful for the things I'm able to do
and the supports that I have. And then there's
mornings I wake up and feel like this is just
too much work. This is too frustrating and feel
very frustrated. So it can go back and forth
for me, definitely. What do you think God feels
about you? And has that changed over time? I
felt some acceptance. from the beginning of my
disability because it happened very suddenly
and it just became you know at the time I was
28 so I had some maturity and age and so it just
happened and you know I just came to the conclusion
pretty quickly of I had a relationship with God
this has happened I'll continue to have relationship
with God and so accepting that He understood
and accepted me, came pretty naturally. And I'll
remind our panelists, and just so you know, that
all of them know that if there's a question that
they don't really have anything to say about
or don't want to speak to, then they're welcome
to just go ahead and say that. So not everybody
will have something to add to every question.
Liam, do you have anything you'd like to share
on this one? I just think he cares about me just
as much as everybody else. So yeah, that's all.
Ditto. Well, I'll talk a little bit about this.
Is that okay? I'm sorry. So yeah, so with Sweetie,
this has been a huge change for me personally
and my thoughts of understanding religion and
Christianity and faith and all those type of
things. With her being nonverbal, I think a lot
of people... First of all, I'll say this. I think
a lot of people... I mean, Sweden's very complex.
And from the first view of her, I think the judgments
of, well, you know, even her schools would say
that when she was first tested that she ranks
around three or four years old. But she also
speaks another language. She came here speaking
another language. English was not her first language.
So the fact that she has... and understands English,
and as we talk to her and can communicate in
some phrases and respond to those things with
her feelings and match up those feelings with
her words when she does talk, simply saying I
love you or I eat or whatever she says, shows
to me that she has far more capabilities of understanding
than what she is given. And so when it comes
to faith and understanding, though, she also
is not able to respond. in the typical ways that
we have laid out through evangelical Christianity,
of that we expect a person to respond, to accept
Jesus as their personal Savior, and say the prayer,
and spend their life with devotion and prayer,
and reading the Bible and Scripture, and all
those type of things. And so that has to then
begin to shape, for me, differently. Like, how
does God view her? Perfectly. And so for me,
that is the beginning point for me of understanding
faith and understanding when it comes to her
that God looks at her perfectly. God's not expecting
anything from her more. He just gets to enjoy
her every single day. And I believe that deeply,
just as much as we get to live and enjoy her
every single day. And I have no expectations
for her as a parent, as a father. I think it
shaped a lot for me. It's changed a lot for me.
It's continuing to change a lot for me and how
I understand how God sees her and then how I'm
able to relate that even to myself and to others
about how really truly God sees us and understands
us. And what are those steps that we have to
take? And what does that look like? And I am
still learning. I'm still growing. I don't sit
here to say I'm an expert in this field. But
I will say the experience of having Sweden in
my life. has definitely began to shift in my
mind and my heart and my understanding of how
I see scripture and how I read scripture when
it pertains to God's love for us, God's grace
for us, what Jesus has done on the cross for
us. Because if we truly believe it does not come
from us earning those things or whatever that
may look like. then I have to believe that for
God and Jesus for her also. And so I believe
Jesus deeply loves her, cares with her, interacts
with her on a daily basis, lives with her, walks
with her, laughs with her, speaks to her, shows
up to her in dreams and ways that I don't understand
because she is constantly filled with joy and
laughter. And I wish, you know, more of my life
reflected that of what Sweetie lives out every
day. And with that, our next question is, is
there a certain place you go in the scriptures
that reminds you of that or causes you to think
of that? Yeah, so like for me, like the beginning
of the Sermon on the Mount, right, is like Jesus's
first ministry. Understanding the idea that when
Jesus goes, begins to speak, he has a plethora
of crowds, like thousands of people are following
him. before he ever opens his mouth. And those
are people who are demon -possessed, who are
sick, who have infirmities, who are coming to
Jesus to be healed. And so they're all coming
to Jesus, so Jesus heals them, and Jesus heals
them, casts out demons, and does all of this,
and then he sits down, and he begins to speak
to his disciples and the crowd, and the first
words that come out of his mouth is what we call
the Beatitudes. which can be looked at a thousand
different ways, but if you realize the first
words out of his mouth is blessed. Blessed are
those who are poor. Blessed are those who are
persecuted. Blessed are those who are sick. Because,
then he goes on to say, because they would see
the kingdom of God, they would do all these things.
Understanding that passage for me, knowing that
the concept of that all these people who are
coming to Jesus to be healed are people who have
been told their whole entire lives and in that
culture that they are cursed by God. In the biblical
times, if you had any type of ailment, sickness,
disability, injury, it's because you ticked off
God, and God was punishing you, and then you
were removed from your home. So you had to live
outside of the city walls. You were cast out.
You were seen as less. You were seen as unclean.
So to have all these people who believe because
of their infirmities, because of their disability,
or whatever they had going on, by culture, by
religion, that they were cursed, they come to
Jesus and they get the complete opposite. A,
they are freed of it. And then B, they're told
they are blessed. That you were never cursed.
That you have always been loved. That in God's
eyes, you have always mattered. You have always
been seen. So that for me is huge understanding
to begin this journey of looking at. you know,
and understanding sweetie through a life and
eyes of her disabilities and needs. And then
there's all kinds of stuff, right? Christ came
to die on the cross, and he says, I came to give
you life and life to the full. It's not an afterlife
to the full. It's a life currently to the full.
And so I believe that Christ died for my life
to be full. I believe that sweetie also gets
to have a full life because of that. Numerous
passages. I mean, I could go on all day. with
this, and I'll stop and pass it on. But I think
our ideas of heaven, of getting to heaven, and
we think the beauty that is heaven is there,
and we want to get there, but that becomes like
that escapism of, well, life is hard here, and
so there it's going to be perfect. But then Jesus,
again, like in his prayer, says, right, that
we pray that his kingdom come, his will be done
on earth, now, presently, just as it is in heaven.
And so that we get to live in God's presence
fully now on earth, just as we will one day in
heaven. Like that again, to me, plays into the
role of Sweetie's life, that she's living the
fullness of Christ now in her earthly body as
she will one day in heaven. So, so many things,
I think, for me fall into that. Yeah, thank you.
And to answer that question for myself and also
connect with a couple of the things you said.
My daughter is also nonverbal and has the most
beautiful smile and the most beautiful laugh.
And as I've met Sweetie and others, I have never
doubted for a second whether Sweetie was loved
by God fully. It is just so clear. But we often
struggle with that for ourselves and others.
Yeah. It can be a challenge for some of us that
are, it's always tough to find words, but able
-bodied or of normal mind. We can question decisions,
different things. But we never question that
for some of the more profoundly disabled. And
I think one of the reasons that's significant
is that doesn't come naturally. Throughout history,
that hasn't been the case, that we look at people
with more profound disabilities and say, wow,
that person is really a sign of God's love and
God's grace. And even those who don't recognize
Jesus as God's son or scripture are still influenced
in our culture by that belief. And everywhere
I would go in the world, people wouldn't necessarily
jump up and open a door for me or ask me if I
needed help. There are lots of places that that
might not be normal. For us, in our culture,
it's pretty normal. But I very strongly believe
that's because of the influence of, even when
we don't realize it, of Christianity, meaning
Jesus, and those teachings that you mentioned.
And I'll pause there. That's a tough one to pause
on. Liam, do you have anything to add about a
certain place that you see in scriptures? I was
thinking about it last night. And I went, I think
it was Romans 8. And Paul was writing about,
like, that we aren't from, like, this realm.
It's our, like, spirits that matter. And he was
just saying that, like, it doesn't matter, like,
what you're capable of doing with your body.
And it's like you need to just lead with your
spirit. Awesome. Thank you. I'm going to take
us to the Old Testament. So I love Ecclesiastes.
I'm one of those weirdos. And Ecclesiastes 7
.13 says, who can make straight what God has
made crooked? And I just love that verse for
several reasons. But, you know, God explicitly
says that he is the one who creates disability.
He told Moses this. He said, who makes man deaf?
Who makes man blind? Moses was complaining because
he didn't want to do what God told him to because
he had a communication disability and he didn't
know how he would go about doing that. And so
God is like, I made you this way. But because
you're uncomfortable with this, I will send your
brother Aaron as an accommodation for you. Right.
And so like there's this beautiful history throughout
the Old Testament where God is like, I did this.
And people are like, well, OK, then I guess I
have to deal with it. And I think for me, like
just recognizing the fact that like I'm not a
mistake, like God didn't have an error in the
pattern that he was using when he made people
like that's just so powerful to me to think like.
God did this for a reason, and I am this way
for a reason, and I live my life different than
a lot of other people, but that's by design.
That does different things. It teaches different
things. It allows me to learn different things
than it would if I just, like, you know, fit
them old people. Thank you. I'm going to move
on to, have you ever felt othered by Christianity
or the church? Because of your body and abilities.
And I would just start with the really simple
one of seating. I've been in churches where there
wasn't anything available for persons that use
a chair. And that can be tricky because it's
like, wow, nobody thought of this. You know,
nobody thought of the possibility of someone
in a chair coming in. This is where sometimes
people overcompensate. So they start removing
a whole row of chairs. And I'm like, I just need
a spot. I don't need you to rearrange the sanctuary.
So that's just a little example of sometimes
in church, and not just in church, but included
in there where people might wrestle or church
structures might wrestle to how to figure out
how to handle disability. Kathy, do you have
anything to mention that? And then I'll go Liam
and then Dave and Sweetie. Sure. So constantly,
not as much in some spaces as in others, but
it's little things, right? Like, so sometimes
my pain doesn't want me to stand up, but I am
young. And so people are like, why aren't you
standing up? Right. And then also sometimes when
you sit and you can't see the screen, so you
can't sing along. You literally can't see through
the tall people standing in front of you. But
also just little things like sometimes the songs
that are chosen have lyrics in them that are
just really hurtful. And there's just so many
places where there could be more thought put
into how we're thinking about and talking about
disability. I have had occasions where I've had
to go talk to a pastor after service and be like,
we need to talk about what you believe about
me and let's learn some things because I am incredibly
hurt right now. So it's definitely something
that is a constant thing on my mind because I
have had to battle it enough. I don't really
think there's much. I'm not really, I don't really
need many accommodations, so I haven't really
noticed this issue much. I also think that it's
cool that we're in a church that Pastor Greg
really has the perspective of having a family
member where that's something he's really conscious
of. And when he notices a need or something,
he'll ask myself or someone else with a disability,
hey, how does this affect you? So I think it's
really cool that you've gotten to be in a church
where that environment or that situation is something
that was thought of. Yeah, I think, you know,
there's all kinds of things, right? I mean, like
every individual is different. Every individual
has different needs. You know, I mean, for us,
like coming to church, you know, we can navigate
space and all of that kind of stuff. But there's
other needs of like, I mean, bathroom care is
a big thing. You know, I mean, like it's really
hard to change a sweetie in a restroom, just
being honest. She's a big kid. She's not an infant.
She doesn't fit on infant tables. You know what
I'm saying? And so those kind of spaces, of course,
I mean, that's everywhere, though. It's not just
the church. But I think for me, just growing
up in a church and spending time in a church,
there's obviously some truth there because there's
a lack of representation in the church. And the
more that I have been involved with other parents
of children with disabilities and having those
conversations, like, they don't feel welcome
in church. It's very hard for them to experience
church. There is a large population in our community
of people with disabilities, and very few of
them are represented in churches all across the
Quad Cities. And so there's obviously something
happening there that is not connecting, whether
that's how we view our children's spaces or even
our adult spaces or what that looks like. But
when you can go to an event where people with
disabilities gather, Like there's a local event
called Night to Shine that happens once a year
for people with disabilities. And you can have
so much registration that you have to fill two
spaces across two states to make that happen.
But yet when you walk into churches across the
Quad Cities, there's no representation of people
with disabilities, or very few. That should be
concerning for us as Christians all across, and
not just in the Quad Cities, but I think across
the United States and the world, it's probably
very much true. So I think there's a lot of growth
in things that can happen and conversations that
can be had with those type of situations when
it comes to church and people with disabilities.
Thank you. And I want to take a moment to acknowledge
this panel is doing an awesome job. Can we just
go ahead and thank them right here in the middle?
They're making asking questions a little tricky
because they're they're covering them so well
and doing such a good job that they're they're
covering a lot of stuff, which I appreciate.
What does it or would it mean to you for a church
to be the safest place for you? I'll start with
that and then Kathy will go to you and then Liam
and then Dave and sweetie. I think for me. People
being aware of having things being thought of
ahead of time. Or, hey, if we have someone with
a chair, we can let them know. What's the bathroom
situation? What is the chair situation? Would
you like help with the drink? Just being aware
of and thinking of those things for people that
come in with disabilities. It's always tricky
because it can be scary to ask someone a question,
and you might get a response of, I don't need
help with that. And you can feel behind it, I
don't like that you asked me that. And sometimes
I feel that. But at the end of the day, would
I rather leave somewhere feeling someone wanted
to help me even though I didn't need it, No one
was willing to have the courage to ask me if
I needed help or willing to make a space for
me. And so I think having the courage to make
mistakes and understanding that even if you do
have an awkward moment, that's okay. And it's
going to take that sometimes for people to feel
connected and have a space. I think for me, I've
seen and experienced so much discrimination that
I am constantly not able to be myself in spaces.
That is 100 % the thing that makes spaces not
safe for me is that I can't, I promise I'm not
crying, the lights are getting me. I can't lean
into who I am fully and trust that people are
gonna be okay with that. When people don't know
things about you, they say things. about you
that they don't know that they're saying about
you um and then you learn that you can't trust
them so you just kind of come to a place where
you're like this isn't a safe space for me i
can't be who i am and i'm not great at peopling
like just plain and simple like people are not
my gift um so it doesn't make it easy to make
those connections and to feel safe with people
and so um it would be a huge shift for me to
feel like I'm in a space where I could fully
be myself and not need to be hiding aspects of
myself. Wow, thank you. Do you have anything
that you'd like to add to that, Dave? Yeah, I
think just overall, you guys have said amazing
things. If we take Sweetie into a space... I'm
going to make sure that it's safe for her. I
think for other people, you know what I mean,
like coming into a space to feel safe, it comes
to the community mindset, right? Like are we
here to care for each other as a community or
do we walk in the doors for our own experience?
And so if we come into church in our own experience,
which is the individual mindset, which a lot
of us are stuck in in our culture, and that's
just how it is. But if you come in for individual
mindset, we're going to come in here, we're going
to have our experience and what we thought of
the service, what we thought of the music for
that day, if we could find parking or not, if
we could find a seat or not, and then we're going
to walk out the door with our frustrations, our
thoughts of what happened in that service. And
so as we begin to shift to think about how do
we want a community to experience church together,
how we want others to come into the space and
feel welcome and loved by each other as a body,
as a family of Christ, that then begins for us
to put ourselves aside and to make space welcome
for all people. And that will begin to change
as we begin to view things that way, and I think
it will begin to change as a community in the
church and the body as a church as we begin to
think that way. And I think that this is a great
space. I see that already happening. The fact
that we're having these discussions is the reason
that Greg's heart and the church's heart is that
we begin to become more of a community -minded
space of what we think of others first and not
just ourselves when we come to a church, and
that's the way it should be. And so yeah I think
there's always things right for others to come
in and feel space and there's things that we
have to think about whether that is facilities
or layout or extra volunteers you know because
sometimes people disabilities need help and support.
And so if we're going to have children coming
in with more disabilities it's going to take
more volunteers to help out in spaces to help
navigate that especially if their children and
their parents have you know are able bodied.
It allows them to have normal experience too
and allows them to have a little bit of peace
knowing that their child can be taken care of
and they don't have to be the caretaker of their
child at church also. And so, you know, there's
all kinds of things I think that can be done
and being mindful. And I see a beauty in this
church already. I mean, I see mothers coming
in with infants and I see other people who go
over to them and take their infant from them
so that they can have a little bit of space,
you know, and a little bit of peace and be able
to participate and support. I think as those
things kind of keep in mind, people feel more
welcome involved. as we're thinking of others
first instead of ourselves when we come into
spaces. Thank you. And sometimes when my wife
and I leave on our way home, and some of you
may have noticed this as well, that for the size
of our congregation, there's a lot of really
young infants and young kids, people of different
backgrounds represented, and people with disabilities
represented. And I think that's really cool,
and I think that says a lot about the community
that we have and the choices that our leadership
has made. And sometimes I could be in a much
larger group of people and be the only person
represented as a person with a clear physical
disability. But that's not the case here, and
I love that. I'm going to ask another question.
There's definitely some overlap here. So please
don't hesitate if you don't have something additional
to add. Just so I didn't say that. But the next
one I have for you is, what does it mean to you
to see people from diverse backgrounds, including
those with disabilities, included and given space
to be who God made them to be among Christians
and Christian community? That one's a little
longer, so I'm going to read it again. What does
it mean to you? To see people from diverse backgrounds
included and given space to be who God made them
to be among Christians and Christian community.
I'll start. Liam, do you have anything you'd
like to add to that one? I don't really have
any deep insight, but it does mean a lot to like
me as a person. Yeah, that's all. Thank you.
So I don't know many of you, but I teach it.
So I have a lot of facts in my head right now.
And one of them is the fact that like the CDC
says 28 % of non institutionalized adults have
a disability. Like that's a large number of people.
So if congregations are trying to be representative
of the communities that they're in, we should
expect about a quarter of the people. whether
or not you're able to see it so i think that
like framing it that way helps us to think a
little bit differently about who's in our space
right like that's a lot of people i don't have
a count for this room but it's a significant
number of people right and so if we're thinking
about that across multiple demographics like
if we want to be the the community, we need to
have people represented from those spaces, and
then that helps us to feel seen and be present
in spaces differently when we know we're not,
like, potentially the only one, right? Yeah,
I think for me, you know, I've said a lot already,
you know, but I think even for me just as a parent
with Sweetie, of some of the things that we went
through, like, it was easy for me to cross some...
boundaries but i had like fear right so like
um and this may sound weird to some people but
like even like the first time i remember like
we we participated in communion with sweetie
like walking her forward to give her communion
where in some spaces in church culture like that
they may not i don't know how people view that
you know like i don't understand how people Like,
my thought was, like, I don't know if I'm going
to get, like, conversations with this ass word.
Like, you know, like, saying, hey, well, is she
really a Christian? Like, has she said a prayer
yet? You know, I've kind of mentioned those things.
But I remember that first time of just giving
her communion and saying, no, like, I'm all in
with her being a part of the body of Christ.
You know, baptizing her. We baptized her on Mother's
Day two years ago here. You know, I mean, sweetie's
probably never given a procession of, like, a
personal, you know, profession of faith out loud.
But we're walking in that steps of faith of believing
that, hey, but God has like God's blessed her
and who she is and being OK with that. So for
me, like there was some things there where I
definitely struggled with feeling comfortable
with things in the church. and having to worry
about some of those things. But it's also what's
pushed me to dive in more to learning and to
researching and to, like, you know, reading the
Bible and having other discussions with people
about faith and what that looks like with people
with disabilities, especially where there's nonverbal,
you know, involved where they can't kind of vocalize
their thoughts. So yeah, and I think a lot of
misconceptions come through appearance, but there's
also, like you said, so much that's not seen.
But I also think with the church, I'll reiterate
again, we have to do better because there's a
huge community that's not represented and not
going to church. And that to me is where we could
grow as a church, is how do we reach out more
in our outreach to those areas and creating space
where people feel welcomed. Thank you. There
have been some great answers to this question
already, but this is the last question that I'll
ask, and you can choose if you have anything
you'd like to add. What do you think are practical
steps that individuals in our community can take
to ensure that disabled persons and their families
know they are valued, heard, and embraced? I
think for me... uh a little disability thing
is being willing to ask people if they need assistance
with something if you can see some type of challenge
they're having but being willing to accept their
answer sometimes if i say that i'm trying to
move it if someone sees me trying to move a chair
and they say hey can i help you uh the answer
might be yes the answer might be i have it And
then sometimes it's so hard to watch people struggle
to do something, but that doesn't mean that they
don't want to do it themselves. If I'm grabbing
a cup or something like that, and someone asks
if I want help, again, it's so appreciated. But
sometimes I might be perfectly fine struggling
with something for 30 seconds that might take
you two seconds to do. And I even noticed that
when Liam dropped his phone, There's an offer
to pick it up, but you chose to pick it up yourself.
And I've noticed just in observing Liam from
a distance, I'm going to go out on a limb and
say that you and I have in common that we stubbornly
would prefer to do things ourselves than accept
help. Is that fair? Yeah. Yeah, I'll step out
on a limb and say that. And so that determination
is there. Being willing to ask and then being
willing to accept the answer that's in response
and recognize that even if someone struggles
with something They might kind of enjoy the fight
a little bit So that would be that would be my
my answer Do you have anything you'd like to
add Liam? I feel similar. Okay. Thank you Yeah,
I mean I guess for me there's two big things
one of the biggest struggles for many of us with
disabilities in place is people's attitudes because
people just don't understand disability well
we haven't done a good job about talking about
it and so these you know unknown biases against
disability sometimes overwhelm people and make
it really hard for us and I'll throw research
at you again we know that the best way to become
comfortable with people who are different from
you is to spend time with them I know, revolutionary.
But thinking about how am I spending time with
people and am I getting to know people who are
different than me to help you work through some
of those things that you might not know that
you don't know. But then the other big thing
for me is just inviting. I might tell you no
100 times, but if you keep inviting me, that's
really meaningful. I have lost friends because
I said no too many times. Sometimes I say yes,
and then the day comes and I need to change my
mind and say no right but that invite and being
Intentionally included in things is really really
important especially I think for people with
disabilities because you might have Every intention
of going and then your body or your mind might
be like not today So having somebody who's still
willing to invite you even if you don't show
up regularly is really really meaningful Yeah,
I think, you know, the same thing, too, is just,
like, and I understand, like, I've had to learn
how to change my thoughts and processes and my
interaction when it comes to, especially people
with disabilities. So it's a learning curve,
but it's also the first step of just, like, reaching
out. You know, I mean, like, I know a lot of
people will approach her and may not know how
to even interact with her because they don't
know her disabilities just even by looking at
her. And you can come up and be like, hey, sweetie.
And she's just going to give you that look of
like, na, na, na, na. And she's going to reach
her slobber finger out towards you. And that's
what she's going to do because that's how she
shows she loves you. Because you can tell by
looking at me and wherever we go, we have wet
spots. I mean, so that's just life. But as you
hang out and spend time with her, you realize
the first thing is that she appreciates every
single interaction. Like, she soaks it in like
a sponge. And so I think for us, like, just going
out of our comfort zones and interacting and
talking and treating people like people, right?
I mean, that's just the overall rule that we
can always do better at no matter where we're
coming from or who the person is. But, you know...
It's just one of those funny things, like even
with Cameron, I blew Cameron's mind this morning
because he was like, well, why doesn't Sweetie
come to Treehouse? And I'm like, because she's
18. She's an adult. But you wouldn't know that
maybe by first looking at her. And so there's
a lot of things like that where it's just understanding
as people that we have to treat people as people
no matter what we want to label them or put them
in categories. You know, and that's just loving
them as they are, giving them the respect they
deserve, talking to them, interacting with them,
giving them the time of day because we all deserve
that, you know, and just being aware of that.
And it may be hard and difficult, but I think
it's just taking the first steps just to break
through those barriers yourself, not expect them
to come to you and be like, hey, this is what
you need to do. Like, break through the barriers.
Like, be the person that takes the first step.
Find spaces where it needs to happen, where you
can. And that goes with all things. Man, put
yourself in spaces other than what you live in.
Get outside of your circles. That's really how
change happens. That's really how we learn, right?
Like if you never went to school, you'd be like,
you probably know a lot less than what you know.
Because you had to get up every morning and you
had to go somewhere to learn well That's still
the model we live in every single day like you
we have to go out of our comfort zone And we
have to go to spaces we have to be around people
we have to interact and the more we interact
We realize how human we all are and then we can
begin to change and grow from those perspectives
Thank you, you can each take a deep breath unless
you have something you'd like to add we're Just
a kiss from sweetie. Thank you, sweetie. You
guys okay if that's our stopping point? Okay.
A couple quick comments. Thank you all so much.
Your answers have really resonated with me emotionally,
and I know I feel listening to you heard and
seen in really special ways. And so thank you
for that. I'd also like to do something. I'd
like to have Pastor Jen and Pastor Greg come
up, and I'm going to say a prayer for them. And
as they come up, I want us to think about the
work that they do to, if you'll come up on this
side of me, to have our community be the special
place it is. And when I think of these panels,
I know they're different from what we're used
to. But they're also discipleship. Isn't following
Jesus learning more about how to be like Jesus
and what he thinks and feels? And aren't we better
able to be Christ followers as we hear and see
these things? I think so. So I'd like to pray
for Pastor Jan and Pastor Greg. I want to thank
God. For the insight that he's given them and
the heart that he's given them. And also that
you would continue to lead them as they make
these efforts to make our church a more welcome
place. So I'm going to go ahead and pray for
that right now. Father, I thank you so much for
Pastor Jen and for Pastor Greg. And I thank you
for the heart that you've given them to love
people in unique and creative ways. and to go
beyond the all are welcome that we see on so
many church signs and that so many people think
that they mean, but don't understand what that
entails. Thank you for towards people of all
the things we're talking about on these panels,
especially today with disability, the heart that
you've given them to ask questions and to read
deeper into your scriptures. And I pray that
you'd continue to guide them as they go on that
journey to have increased insight and wisdom.
And we ask this in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Can
we thank everybody up here one more time? All
right, panelists, you're dismissed.