WEBVTT

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Welcome back to The Rated Change with York Wealth

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Management. As advisors to some of the wealthiest

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families in the country, The Rated Change is

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a podcast designed to help you in the pursuit

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of building long -term wealth through the insights

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of some of the brightest minds in asset management.

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I'm your host, Murdoch Gaddy. And today's rock

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cast, we're welcoming back a fan favorite, Todd

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Warren, partner and head of research at Tribeca

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Investment Partners. Todd. We're Australians.

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Everyone loves resources, mate. So really good

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to have you back on and I'm looking forward to

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this. Yeah, thank you for having me, mate. It's

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always nice to have people actually want to hear

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our story for a change. Absolutely. Resources,

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having the time and the sun. For people that

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are joining us for the first time, do you just

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want to give a bit of your background? Who's

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Todd Warren? What do you do? Yeah, sure. For

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my sins, I'm now... Well, 2026 marks my 30th

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year investing in resources, believe it or not.

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So I've seen the good times and the bad. I've

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seen, you know, what was the China urbanization

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story. I've seen the other side of the manhorn

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after that. And obviously the interesting volatility

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we have today. But yes, I've been working in

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resources markets for a long time now. I've been

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at Tribeca for... six years and before that spent

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20 -odd years at Colonial First State in their

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resources team. So yes, have my sins, spent a

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long time in resources. I started out with an

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Afro and look at me now. Absolutely. So Tribeca,

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just run off again, what funds do you currently

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have? Has there been any new additions? Yeah,

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so we, well, Tribeca started out life 26, 27

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years ago, managing an Australian small caps

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fund. And then in the middle part of last decade,

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we launched a global natural resources product

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that's a go anywhere in the resources spectrum

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product anywhere around the world, anywhere in

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the size spectrum, any commodity, anything that

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we dug, pumped or scraped from the surface of

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the planet is fair game for us. We also run what

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we call the Nuclear Energy Opportunities Fund,

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which was an offshoot from the Resources Strategy,

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and that's, well, by its name, clearly focused

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on the nuclear thematic, everything from uranium

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exploration through to nuclear power generation.

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We launched about, what are we now, four and

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a half years ago, a strategy very much focused

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on electrification and decarbonisation called

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the 2050 Strategy. And then outside of the other

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equity strategies, we've also got a couple of

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strategies that are run at our Singapore office.

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That is an Asian infrastructure fund and an Asian

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credit fund. So we've got both the equities and

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the credit side covered. But the important thing

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is that we don't try and be all things to all

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people. It's a matter of really running specialist

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products we think are fairly difficult to replicate.

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Well, this is going to be fun. It's always fun

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chatting to you, but I'll give you the choice.

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Which one do you want to unpack first? Well,

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let's stick with resources. That's where my passion

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is and it's where there's certainly no lack of

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news items to discuss in that spectrum right

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now, obviously. So with what's currently happening,

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so what we spoke about two years ago, so a lot's

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happened. The uranium story has been very interesting

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in the past years. Why don't we just dig into

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that one? What's happening essentially in that

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portfolio? Yeah, by all means. Well, it's been,

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as you say, an interesting time in uranium. We've

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seen more and more certainly governments around

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the world really get on board with the nuclear

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power thematic, at least from the perspective

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of that realisation that... We desperately need

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nuclear power as a backstop, a baseload power

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support for the increasingly prevalent renewables

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and, of course, the intermittency of renewables

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that have their place but need that consistency

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or backup of nuclear. It's obviously long dated,

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but to that end, we've seen more and more investment

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from governments around the world, albeit not

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necessarily here in Australia. which is somewhat

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the bane of our existence because it's become

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a political football. But in more recent times,

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we've also seen the very reason why it's difficult

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to increase supply, where the uranium commodity

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price has been quite strong, and yet the very

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few, and we don't have that many to be fair,

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very few uranium producers have proven just how

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difficult it is to bring new mines or indeed

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restart old mines. back into production. So,

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you know, we think the thematic is really developing

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a pretty strong head of steam and has, frankly,

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still many years to play out. Importantly, I

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guess the more recent demand side, which has

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really sort of lit another fire under it, has

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been the advent of data centres and AI and the

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reality that the nuclear power can form a very

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big support for the generation piece that...

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that these hyperscalers are being forced to contemplate

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off -grid solutions that might look like a nuclear

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power facility as their backup. Yeah, it's funny

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enough. Like you speak to someone and you just

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start remembering kind of what you spoke about

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two years ago. It's amazing how the brain works.

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I think back then, I think Amazon or someone

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with the equivalent, it was probably Amazon,

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was smart enough to essentially purchase land

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and build a data center next to one of the US

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nuclear power stations. Do you remember that?

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And that's kind of put essentially, you know,

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it's signaled to essentially the world that a

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lot of the energy infrastructure is not able

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to handle it. Meanwhile, everyone's pushing,

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you know, wind, solar, this and the other, but

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the grid just really can't handle it. Do you

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think that is now becoming, it went from the

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outsider and, oh, my God, is that now the game

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for data centers that, you know, if you can access?

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nuclear power to essentially run these large,

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you know, energy consuming data centers. Is that

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the way forward that we're currently seeing?

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And because of that, is there now, has the politics

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kind of changed and shifted? Have people started

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to wake up and realize that, you know, installing

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other nuclear power stations in the Western world

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may now become an option when in some places

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like Australia was just a hard no? It's still

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long dated, don't get me wrong. But yeah, to

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your point around, you know, insert name of hyperscaler

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here, they are recognising that nuclear is a

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fantastic long term solution for them. You know,

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if you look at, you know, Microsoft as a case

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in point, now Microsoft were one of the very

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vocal and leading companies, frankly, with regards

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to their decarbonisation pursuit. It was only

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actually in the last couple of years that we've

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actually started to see their carbon footprint

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go up. And why is it going up? It's because their

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power needs are going up and they're having to

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consume, you know, baseload power. And that baseload

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power is coming in the form of coal -fired power

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or gas -fired power. Now, we need every electron

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we can get our hands on. Don't get me wrong.

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And I'm not for a moment suggesting this is renewables

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versus nuclear. It's not. We need both. We need

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all of them. But coming back to what I was saying

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earlier around the generation piece, to your

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point, grids are not capable of supporting the

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massive increase we're seeing in power demand

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from the existing infrastructure, let alone the

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exponential increase we're going to see in demand

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as these data centres are increasingly installed.

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I mean, you saw it just on the headline literally

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in the last couple of days. that Meta are going

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to install somewhere between 5 and 7 gigawatts

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of power to drive their latest hyper -sized,

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hyper -scaled data centre. So that's just one

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example. To your point, there are so many. So

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the beauty of nuclear is that it is, from a carbon

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perspective, very clean. It can be, you know,

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on a grand scale installed, importantly, also

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off grid. You can actually separate it from the

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grid. So, yes, we've seen old nuclear facilities

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in the US had their lives extended or indeed

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restarted. And we think that thematic will continue,

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frankly, for years to come. So how's Tribeca

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getting asset exposure to uranium? Is there a

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lot domestically or are you looking mainly offshore?

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It's a bit of both. A bit of both. I mean, it

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is a casing point of the resources sector. You

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know, the Australian market is one of the key

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resources markets, one of the key uranium markets.

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Canada, of course, is the other. But there are

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a few US names, particularly from the SMR, small

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modular reactor perspective. There's a few US

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names starting to pop up, at least from a generation

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perspective. In terms of the uranium miners in

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the Aussie marketplace. We were long -term supporters

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of BOSS. They're going through some operational

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challenges at the moment. More recently, we've

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been supporters of Paladin being the relatively

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liquid and larger scale uranium producer listed

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here in Oz. Offshore, Cameco being the Canadian,

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Bellwether is a great go -to name for very liquid,

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large exposure to uranium. well, what is probably

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the best undeveloped uranium asset on the face

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of the planet being NextGen's asset in the Athabasca

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Basin, we think is fantastic. And certainly in

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an environment where they've just essentially

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had the last of the permitting hurdles crossed,

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it does clear the pathway for the development

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of what will be a very large, low -cost uranium

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mine. Yeah, energy is the topic of the world

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these days, isn't it? It's just funny how politics

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kind of gets involved. We went from being the

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largest coal exporter to pretty much them shutting

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it all down. We have the most amount of it. Pocock's

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in the news. Good old Pocock. I'll tell you what,

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he's a funny guy. That meme he's doing around,

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what was it about the beer? It was $2 .5 billion

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worth of taxes, and he worked out that it was

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about $1 .7 billion worth of... Taxes we get

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out of selling natural gas. And isn't there,

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he put it up recently. There's a ticker showing

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essentially that each hour or something they've

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been talking is costing Australia like $300 million

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or something. Have you seen all that? I haven't

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seen that. No, it's, look, yeah, that's the reality,

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right? So, you know, the resources sector is

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a big taxpayer. So you're starting to press a

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bit of a hot button for me personally. But this

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is a sad case that we've got in the resources

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sector where in fossil fuels land, it was seen

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as the demon and biggest carbon contributor.

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And then that sort of broadly parlayed into all

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mining is bad, which is... clearly fairly short

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-sighted um i'm obviously somewhat biased but

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it's a short -sighted view in my view um so we've

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got yes so no i say it makes no sense it's kind

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of like woolworths banning plastic bags mean

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while you're going to woolworths every all the

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fruit and everything and vegetables all wrapped

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in plastic correct correct well correct and and

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you know it's all we're able to talk about is

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turning off our coal -fired power but you've

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got to have a solution you've got to have an

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alternative and There's a reason why the government

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keeps kicking the tin down the road and extending

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the life of our various coal -fired power plants

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because we just don't have the near -term solutions

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just yet. We may as well get into the strata

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humors, Iran, the fuel crisis, but may as well

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start at a different angle. I think there was

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once upon a time 12 refineries in Australia.

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Now there's two. Right? Surely we'd have learned

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our lesson from, you know, from COVID times and

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essentially, you know, with the cars, you know,

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you can't get past essentially create them. Why

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did they shut down refineries? Essentially, we're

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an island. And is there any chatter of, you know,

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opening up refineries again because of the problem

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we're in? Well, I mean, there's... There's a

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few connected arguments here. You know, one of

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them, of course, is fossil fuels, I think, more

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broadly. But, yeah, you would think we'd learned

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our lesson. But sadly, you know, we sit here

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in Australia, as you say, as an island with very

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little in the way of our own refining capacity.

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And yet, you know, as a G20 economy, we've got

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one or if not the lowest level of inventories

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of refined product, which, yeah. beggar's belief,

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frankly, and sadly is not easily solved. What

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it does do, and it's not just refined product,

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this serves, I guess, as a handy reminder of

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a couple of things. Number one, commodities have

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got significant strategic value. And number two,

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it's not easily solved and supply remains a big

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issue. But also that we are... on other geopolitical

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players who don't always have Australia's best

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interests at heart. So when, you know, when the

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shit hits the fan, you know, the problem we've

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got here is that, you know, we've got a pretty

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weak geopolitical hand in some respects, albeit,

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you know, as we're hearing from our government

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at the moment. Maybe we can use our bargaining

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chip being our supply of LNG, for example, to

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some of these other suppliers of our refined

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products. So we're not without bargaining chips,

00:14:53.740 --> 00:14:56.440
but the issue we've got is that they're not easily

00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:59.179
solved either. You know, you can't, when you

00:14:59.179 --> 00:15:01.980
break down these supply chains for crude and

00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:04.240
refined product, the reality is it takes a long

00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:07.539
time for, you know, a very large crude carrier,

00:15:07.539 --> 00:15:11.299
VLCC, to sell from the Gulf to a refinery in

00:15:11.299 --> 00:15:13.570
Asia. to refine the product and then have the

00:15:13.570 --> 00:15:16.190
refined product sold to Australia. So even if

00:15:16.190 --> 00:15:19.490
a tanker leaves the Gulf today, we're not receiving

00:15:19.490 --> 00:15:21.929
those refined products for probably six or eight

00:15:21.929 --> 00:15:25.210
weeks, best case. Yeah, and then I was chatting

00:15:25.210 --> 00:15:29.080
to a mate who... I love this guy. Guy's hilarious.

00:15:29.379 --> 00:15:33.440
But he essentially broke his ships for a living,

00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:35.399
like the large shipping containers where you

00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:38.080
sit the cargo ships on and all the gas carriers

00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:40.620
and the oil carriers. And what was very interesting

00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:43.980
and inside on the contracts is when they sell

00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:46.000
them, essentially all the fuel is on the buyer.

00:15:46.259 --> 00:15:49.500
But if a scenario like this happens and they

00:15:49.500 --> 00:15:51.740
can't access fuel, then essentially the liability

00:15:51.740 --> 00:15:55.100
shifts to them and their backup plan is purchasing.

00:15:55.820 --> 00:15:59.340
uh texas western crude right but the delay the

00:15:59.340 --> 00:16:02.580
delay on the time is like you know another potentially

00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:04.539
you know another couple of weeks so it all just

00:16:04.539 --> 00:16:08.279
kind of costs and costs and costs um yeah where

00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:10.639
do you think this is you might as well get into

00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:14.120
it uh love an opinion um where do you think this

00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:18.820
iran conflict's going um i see it more not necessarily

00:16:18.820 --> 00:16:22.500
you know on the On the complete politics, but

00:16:22.500 --> 00:16:25.259
where do you think it's going from a resources

00:16:25.259 --> 00:16:28.440
standpoint? Because to my understanding right

00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:30.799
now with Australia, there's a little island which

00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:34.100
says if you go through the main gap, then essentially

00:16:34.100 --> 00:16:36.179
we'll blow you up. But if you essentially go

00:16:36.179 --> 00:16:38.759
through a little toll booth, we'll let you through

00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:41.580
for a $2 million ticket per ship, which is just

00:16:41.580 --> 00:16:47.159
insane. So how much damage is this doing to essentially

00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:53.149
the sector? Oh, well, it's massive. It's massive.

00:16:53.169 --> 00:16:56.169
And this is an extraordinary choke point. And

00:16:56.169 --> 00:16:58.450
the Iranians are doing a wonderful job of parlaying

00:16:58.450 --> 00:17:01.409
a palace situation into an economic advantage.

00:17:02.690 --> 00:17:06.589
You know, the reality is, and your listeners

00:17:06.589 --> 00:17:08.490
will know this, it's been well reported that

00:17:08.490 --> 00:17:11.450
between 15 and 20 % of the world's oil and LNG

00:17:11.450 --> 00:17:15.490
sails through that very small elbow of water.

00:17:16.190 --> 00:17:19.490
So, you know, when you can very easily... ships

00:17:19.490 --> 00:17:21.490
from sailing through. It's obviously a massive

00:17:21.490 --> 00:17:25.069
impact on the global oil or energy markets more

00:17:25.069 --> 00:17:29.470
broadly. With regards to their ability to constrain

00:17:29.470 --> 00:17:33.529
it, the reality is they don't need to stop every

00:17:33.529 --> 00:17:36.109
boat. They don't need to take a pot shot at one.

00:17:36.230 --> 00:17:39.470
And obviously all of them are seemingly at risk.

00:17:39.569 --> 00:17:43.690
So that's where the challenge lies. Yes, you're

00:17:43.690 --> 00:17:47.990
right. The main shipping channel does not sail.

00:17:48.410 --> 00:17:52.069
between two Iranian islands. But in terms of

00:17:52.069 --> 00:17:54.269
the Iranians letting boats through, you know,

00:17:54.269 --> 00:17:57.309
they're essentially saying, yeah, you can come

00:17:57.309 --> 00:18:00.809
up, you know, if you're a friendly buyer, i .e.,

00:18:00.809 --> 00:18:02.750
you know, a Chinese or an Indian, for example,

00:18:02.930 --> 00:18:06.349
crude buyer or a fine product buyer, you can

00:18:06.349 --> 00:18:08.289
sail your boat through, bring it up past this

00:18:08.289 --> 00:18:09.769
island, we'll check that it's the right boat.

00:18:11.170 --> 00:18:14.990
And, yes, you can wire us two million greenbacks

00:18:14.990 --> 00:18:17.970
and we'll let you through. So, yes, that is,

00:18:18.069 --> 00:18:20.569
well, that's the story. I mean, it's unconfirmed,

00:18:20.569 --> 00:18:22.170
but, you know, the Iranians overnight came out

00:18:22.170 --> 00:18:26.190
with a policy essentially trying to firm up their

00:18:26.190 --> 00:18:28.569
control of the Strait of Hormuz. And you would

00:18:28.569 --> 00:18:31.950
have seen the US put 15 conditions on the table

00:18:31.950 --> 00:18:33.769
with their negotiations. The Iranians came back

00:18:33.769 --> 00:18:37.009
with five, of which one of them was we control

00:18:37.009 --> 00:18:39.569
the Strait of Hormuz. I believe they used the

00:18:39.569 --> 00:18:42.210
word sovereignty. They wanted to actually claim

00:18:42.210 --> 00:18:46.099
it. Yeah. I mean, yeah, clearly a non -starter.

00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:50.079
Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, sovereignty on essentially

00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:52.619
Australia, which controls 20 % of all the supply,

00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:54.099
and you're seeing essentially the choke points

00:18:54.099 --> 00:18:57.140
happening right now. Surely they can't let that

00:18:57.140 --> 00:18:59.680
stand. It's kind of like the equivalent of, you

00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:04.339
know, the Suez Canal when that went down. Well,

00:19:04.420 --> 00:19:06.480
you're correct. So you're correct. That is a

00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:11.490
choke point. I mean, the... You cannot have,

00:19:11.569 --> 00:19:13.529
as you say, a sovereign controlling this amount

00:19:13.529 --> 00:19:16.269
of the world's crude, despite the fact they don't

00:19:16.269 --> 00:19:20.670
produce that much. There's no way the other Gulf

00:19:20.670 --> 00:19:27.250
countries would approve that. But I guess when

00:19:27.250 --> 00:19:32.089
you've got a cornered, dare I say it, irrational

00:19:32.089 --> 00:19:35.509
party, don't ask, don't get. So there'll be a

00:19:35.509 --> 00:19:39.420
deal done that I expect. No, you cannot have

00:19:39.420 --> 00:19:40.839
them having sovereign control over that straight

00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:43.839
of waters. Why don't we discuss helium? I haven't

00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:45.859
discussed helium with you before, but it kind

00:19:45.859 --> 00:19:47.900
of all ties in. I've got a good mate at another

00:19:47.900 --> 00:19:50.339
shop, you know, who loves essentially the helium

00:19:50.339 --> 00:19:53.779
story, and there's a good one in Australia. RAS,

00:19:53.819 --> 00:19:56.099
am I saying this correctly? RAS Lafarn Industrial

00:19:56.099 --> 00:20:00.400
Center, Qatar. I'm absolutely reading this. Normally

00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.619
accounts for roughly one -third or 33 % of global

00:20:03.619 --> 00:20:07.890
helium production. Yeah, all of Qatar's helium

00:20:07.890 --> 00:20:10.910
is extracted there as a byproduct of gas and

00:20:10.910 --> 00:20:15.589
LNG. Processing is dedicated to helium 1, 2,

00:20:15.630 --> 00:20:20.730
and 3 plants. Is that right? 63 million cubic

00:20:20.730 --> 00:20:25.490
meters. World total is 190 million. So 33 % is

00:20:25.490 --> 00:20:29.069
coming primarily from Qatar. Does Tribeca have

00:20:29.069 --> 00:20:33.890
any exposure, you know, to those assets? No,

00:20:33.890 --> 00:20:35.829
it's a short answer. No, is the short answer.

00:20:36.730 --> 00:20:39.069
Do you have any exposures to the assets that

00:20:39.069 --> 00:20:41.170
are outside of there that will benefit from the

00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:43.869
shortage? We don't at the moment. We have had

00:20:43.869 --> 00:20:47.230
in the past. Helium as a commodity, as a pure

00:20:47.230 --> 00:20:50.869
play, is very difficult because to your data

00:20:50.869 --> 00:20:54.329
you've just laid out there, the lion's share

00:20:54.329 --> 00:20:56.210
of the world's helium comes as a byproduct of

00:20:56.210 --> 00:21:01.230
liquefying natural gas because it's the helium

00:21:01.230 --> 00:21:03.210
that comes as part of the production stream of

00:21:03.210 --> 00:21:09.079
the gas. So there are a few earlier stage helium

00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:12.039
explorers listed on the Australian Stock Exchange,

00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:15.799
which are obviously hopeful of tapping into this

00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:21.339
thematic. But it's your early stage. They're

00:21:21.339 --> 00:21:24.619
not in production, hoping to be obviously at

00:21:24.619 --> 00:21:26.859
some point, but obviously hoping to play that

00:21:26.859 --> 00:21:29.119
longer term thematic. But yeah, look, clearly

00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.990
helium is one of the potential. I suppose, from

00:21:33.990 --> 00:21:36.690
a longer -term outage at these LNG plants, for

00:21:36.690 --> 00:21:39.049
sure, and it's one that's not often talked about.

00:21:41.250 --> 00:21:45.009
It's an interesting space, the gas, just all

00:21:45.009 --> 00:21:46.970
the energy space. But whilst we're just on the

00:21:46.970 --> 00:21:50.369
topic of the politics, and I mentioned POCOC,

00:21:50.470 --> 00:21:53.190
obviously, you know, politicians make noise,

00:21:53.289 --> 00:21:55.509
things don't happen, people come to a compromise.

00:21:55.829 --> 00:21:57.630
What would be the impact? This is just for me

00:21:57.630 --> 00:21:59.829
personally. What would be the impact if, say,

00:21:59.829 --> 00:22:04.130
hypothetically, they got through? a 25 % tax

00:22:04.130 --> 00:22:07.789
on, you know, exports of, you know, oil, gas,

00:22:08.150 --> 00:22:11.630
you know, that type of thing. What would be the

00:22:11.630 --> 00:22:16.250
impact on the share prices of essentially like

00:22:16.250 --> 00:22:21.369
Australian gas companies and oil companies? Well,

00:22:21.369 --> 00:22:26.390
I guess if you instantaneously impose a tax on

00:22:26.390 --> 00:22:30.910
a product, if it's in the source of supply, you're

00:22:30.910 --> 00:22:33.329
automatically increasing the cost curve, right?

00:22:33.410 --> 00:22:35.630
So you're structurally raising the cost curve,

00:22:35.750 --> 00:22:42.589
which in theory either makes less supply economic,

00:22:42.789 --> 00:22:45.690
so it takes supply out, or it forces the price

00:22:45.690 --> 00:22:48.849
to go up in order for the product to be produced.

00:22:49.529 --> 00:22:54.930
So, and you're assuming demand remains inelastic,

00:22:54.970 --> 00:22:58.680
which... given the uses of helium. It's not just

00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:00.460
in balloons that go into your five -year -old's

00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:03.339
party balloons on a weekend. Most of it, you

00:23:03.339 --> 00:23:07.599
know, it's either into, you know, aerospace or

00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:12.380
medical applications. The elasticity of demand

00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:16.740
is light. I mean, it's inelastic. So, you know...

00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:18.019
Theoretically, it should be good for the price.

00:23:18.259 --> 00:23:21.059
Well, wouldn't you think that potentially a better

00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:23.519
way to do it would just technically be like an

00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:25.839
Australian royalty on the profits instead of

00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:28.400
like, you know, whacking on essentially a cost

00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:35.160
item? Yeah, well, I mean, you need to engage

00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:38.240
many of the producers here for this and ask the...

00:23:38.660 --> 00:23:41.819
Ask the Queensland coal producers. No one wants

00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:44.119
to give up what they own, mate. Look, personally,

00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:46.359
I've got a lot of money in this space as you

00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:47.920
guys as well. So that's what I was trying to

00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:50.240
understand, right? On one hand, it's good for

00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:52.460
the country. On the other hand, you take your

00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:54.819
money out of investors' pockets. So I'm just

00:23:54.819 --> 00:23:57.660
trying to gauge essentially what's – because

00:23:57.660 --> 00:23:59.180
everyone's seen this stuff in the news. Well,

00:23:59.180 --> 00:24:03.799
to be speaking, some sort of profit royalty is

00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:07.720
– It might be scalable based on the level of

00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:11.880
profit received is more tenable than just raising

00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.759
your cost base. So it really depends. The way

00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:19.539
the royalties were structured in Queensland essentially

00:24:19.539 --> 00:24:22.900
has made much of the coal industry, well, certainly

00:24:22.900 --> 00:24:24.420
not going to invest in any further growth and

00:24:24.420 --> 00:24:26.759
making their cost bases structurally higher because

00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:28.539
it's a revenue royalty rather than a profit royalty.

00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:32.579
What's Tribeca currently doing in the oil and

00:24:32.579 --> 00:24:35.960
gas space? assets you're currently holding why

00:24:35.960 --> 00:24:37.799
don't we start with what domestic assets you're

00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:42.019
currently holding yeah sure so um we've really

00:24:42.019 --> 00:24:44.539
i guess over over time you know we are a fundamental

00:24:44.539 --> 00:24:47.160
investor so we've focused on where we think they

00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:51.619
are the best well, gas assets initially, where

00:24:51.619 --> 00:24:54.059
we think there's a long -term play on resource

00:24:54.059 --> 00:24:57.720
quality. And for us in Australia, that's, you

00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:00.140
know, we've been shareholders in Tamborin for

00:25:00.140 --> 00:25:03.160
a long time with the Betaloo Basin assets that

00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:05.039
they have. There's a fair bit starting to happen

00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:08.900
there. And the other play in Australia at the

00:25:08.900 --> 00:25:11.720
junior end of the spectrum is Omega, Omega Oil

00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:15.859
and Gas. They've got... pretty attractive asset

00:25:15.859 --> 00:25:19.380
suite in the Taroom Trough in Queensland. Now,

00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:21.420
both of those are not in production as we speak,

00:25:21.539 --> 00:25:25.180
but have, as I say, an excellent resource base

00:25:25.180 --> 00:25:30.640
that we think is going to grow, but also is attractive

00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:33.420
from a scale perspective and sort of a bit like

00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:37.259
coal seam gas was, you know, last decade in Queensland,

00:25:37.380 --> 00:25:40.019
where the big players ultimately end up taking

00:25:40.019 --> 00:25:44.259
over there. I've heard some people say similarities

00:25:44.259 --> 00:25:48.279
to Amiga and the Beetlejuice Basin to like the

00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:51.680
early days of Woodside. Is that inaccurate? And

00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:54.119
what they mean by that is it takes that a great

00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:57.759
asset took forever. The capital expense is insane.

00:25:58.220 --> 00:26:01.720
It takes a long time, but then eventually when

00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:04.559
it gets up and running and the money comes, it's

00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:08.619
a good asset and then it takes time to eventually

00:26:08.619 --> 00:26:11.049
get there. It's a decent analogy because you

00:26:11.049 --> 00:26:13.849
think about, you know, for Woody's, well, you

00:26:13.849 --> 00:26:16.990
know, whether it was Bass Strait, which is, you

00:26:16.990 --> 00:26:18.690
know, deep water, difficult to develop, you know,

00:26:18.690 --> 00:26:21.630
many, many decades ago, or it's Northwest Shelf,

00:26:21.710 --> 00:26:22.950
you know, which ultimately became one of the

00:26:22.950 --> 00:26:26.430
company makers for Woodside. Now, the reality

00:26:26.430 --> 00:26:29.210
is Northwest Shelf is near precisely nothing.

00:26:29.970 --> 00:26:32.890
So, you know, you have to spend, as you say,

00:26:33.009 --> 00:26:35.710
a huge amount of money. not just drilling the

00:26:35.710 --> 00:26:38.730
wells, but then, you know, putting in a huge

00:26:38.730 --> 00:26:42.049
LNG facility on shore to liquefy the gas and

00:26:42.049 --> 00:26:45.910
send it off to market. So, yes, big, expensive,

00:26:46.089 --> 00:26:49.529
not for the faint of heart. Now, the Beetaloo

00:26:49.529 --> 00:26:52.490
Basin is, you know, has one of those similar

00:26:52.490 --> 00:26:56.509
qualities. It's precisely close to nowhere. And

00:26:56.509 --> 00:26:59.349
so, you know, the similar challenge that we've

00:26:59.349 --> 00:27:02.430
faced and the bears have said. the Beedaloo Basin

00:27:02.430 --> 00:27:04.470
will never be developed because it is close to

00:27:04.470 --> 00:27:08.349
nowhere. But what we are seeing increasingly

00:27:08.349 --> 00:27:10.269
and what's really, I guess, lit a bit of a fire

00:27:10.269 --> 00:27:12.470
here, I mean, this has been around a long time,

00:27:12.549 --> 00:27:14.750
don't get me wrong. Beedaloo Basin has been seen

00:27:14.750 --> 00:27:18.849
as a prospective gas play for many years. But

00:27:18.849 --> 00:27:21.789
what seems to have lit a fire here is the interest

00:27:21.789 --> 00:27:25.630
of US players who have come in and are applying

00:27:25.630 --> 00:27:30.349
US technology, US equipment, big rigs, big frack

00:27:30.349 --> 00:27:34.140
spreads. to drill out what they think looks geologically

00:27:34.140 --> 00:27:38.140
the same as the Marcellus Shale in the US, which

00:27:38.140 --> 00:27:41.500
has become a multi -BCF, billion cubic feet a

00:27:41.500 --> 00:27:44.059
day gas field, biggest gas producer in the US,

00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:49.000
and made gas a cheap and prevalent commodity

00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:53.339
for US consumers. And it's them who brought their

00:27:53.339 --> 00:27:55.980
capital and expertise into Australia, which is

00:27:55.980 --> 00:28:00.049
really, I think... the next move for the Beedaloo

00:28:00.049 --> 00:28:04.430
players. Now, the Teroom trough, Omega, it's

00:28:04.430 --> 00:28:09.349
not as geographically isolated. It's southwestern

00:28:09.349 --> 00:28:12.329
Queensland. It's actually not that far from some

00:28:12.329 --> 00:28:16.710
of the infrastructure that went into place to

00:28:16.710 --> 00:28:21.430
build out the coal seam gas plays in the liquefaction

00:28:21.430 --> 00:28:26.470
trains in Gladstone. Should it be developed,

00:28:26.690 --> 00:28:29.970
you'll see the gas from the Taroom trough most

00:28:29.970 --> 00:28:32.190
likely feed into either the domestic market or

00:28:32.190 --> 00:28:34.930
into the LNG plays in Gladstone. Or if they're

00:28:34.930 --> 00:28:37.690
liquids, well, hell, there seems to be a bit

00:28:37.690 --> 00:28:38.970
of a shortage of oil around at the moment, so

00:28:38.970 --> 00:28:40.289
I'm sure there's plenty of buyers domestically

00:28:40.289 --> 00:28:46.809
for that. I love this space, as you know. May

00:28:46.809 --> 00:28:48.809
as well dig into Tamborin a bit more because

00:28:48.809 --> 00:28:51.250
there's a lot actually happening. It's been many

00:28:51.250 --> 00:28:55.839
years, many, many years, hasn't it? Yes, some

00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:59.259
long years, you might say. Some long years, you

00:28:59.259 --> 00:29:01.160
know, in the cocoon and it looks like it's about

00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:05.440
to emerge. So what's happening there? I've heard,

00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:09.279
you know, Inpex, Dally Waters, you know, Sheffield's

00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:12.500
done a thing, you know, potential association,

00:29:12.500 --> 00:29:17.670
you know, with the old empire right now. So that's

00:29:17.670 --> 00:29:21.190
happening. Do what's really funny about, it's

00:29:21.190 --> 00:29:25.329
almost like tribalism. The Republicans are Democrats.

00:29:26.130 --> 00:29:29.690
The early days of Tamborin versus Empire Energy,

00:29:29.829 --> 00:29:34.349
which is now Beetaloo. But I kind of like the

00:29:34.349 --> 00:29:36.250
analogy I heard the other day. It's, you know,

00:29:36.269 --> 00:29:38.529
the Beetaloo kind of needs to work together because

00:29:38.529 --> 00:29:40.769
there's so much infrastructure and everything

00:29:40.769 --> 00:29:42.789
required. And if you all kind of pull in and

00:29:42.789 --> 00:29:46.089
off we go. And I kind of. think that's – isn't

00:29:46.089 --> 00:29:47.410
that what's kind of happening now? It's like

00:29:47.410 --> 00:29:49.630
Inpex kind of getting involved and, you know,

00:29:49.630 --> 00:29:52.849
it's all kind of the entire region. As you mentioned,

00:29:52.910 --> 00:29:55.769
there's nothing there. There's now many different

00:29:55.769 --> 00:29:59.130
interests are now making this possible. Well,

00:29:59.150 --> 00:30:01.509
you're right. I mean, yeah, it's been a long

00:30:01.509 --> 00:30:05.190
road, as you say, and for a few different reasons.

00:30:05.289 --> 00:30:07.230
I mean, there was – you know, you've also got

00:30:07.230 --> 00:30:09.170
Santos up there in the eastern side of the basin

00:30:09.170 --> 00:30:13.619
and – They were actually drilling wells with

00:30:13.619 --> 00:30:17.220
Tamborin as a joint venture partner and they

00:30:17.220 --> 00:30:19.880
had some not inconsiderable land access issues.

00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:26.480
So that slowed them down. You've had previous

00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:28.640
landowners on the western side of the basin struggle

00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:32.160
either because of land access issues or lack

00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:36.000
of capital. And that lack of capital thing is...

00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:39.019
can sometimes be a difficult one to navigate.

00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:42.319
And as I touched on, you know, what's happened

00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:44.319
more recently has been the entry of the US players.

00:30:44.420 --> 00:30:47.019
And you touched on the impacts. Like that's,

00:30:47.019 --> 00:30:50.259
this is where you really start to get moving

00:30:50.259 --> 00:30:52.319
because it's the big guys with the deep pockets

00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:55.700
who are desperately chasing molecules, right?

00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:58.180
So again, coming back to the point around what's

00:30:58.180 --> 00:31:01.019
going on in the Middle East, you know, and at

00:31:01.019 --> 00:31:02.839
Woodside, for example, building out LNG trains

00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:05.859
in Louisiana in the US. We're trying to get away

00:31:05.859 --> 00:31:08.400
from geopolitically unstable places. So if you

00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:12.220
are Impex, where do you want to source your LNG

00:31:12.220 --> 00:31:14.319
molecules from? Do you want to source it from

00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:16.319
Qatar or do you want to source it from the US

00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:19.700
and Australia? I'm going to back Australia in

00:31:19.700 --> 00:31:24.759
that horse race and the US as well. So aside

00:31:24.759 --> 00:31:28.680
from the... the proximity. I mean, Australia

00:31:28.680 --> 00:31:31.319
is obviously the closest of all those three suppliers.

00:31:31.559 --> 00:31:35.299
So Inpex knows where they desperately need more

00:31:35.299 --> 00:31:39.119
gas. And they already have, as it happens, an

00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:41.559
LNG facility that they put in place with the

00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:46.079
ICTHUS LNG project up in the Northern Territory.

00:31:46.099 --> 00:31:48.700
So they could add an extra train there. You know,

00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:51.930
you've got... them now investing in the Beetaloo

00:31:51.930 --> 00:31:55.609
Basin via the Daily Waters farm in. Look, this

00:31:55.609 --> 00:31:58.809
is big, big, deep pockets that play the long

00:31:58.809 --> 00:32:01.710
game and recognise, you know, the scale of this

00:32:01.710 --> 00:32:03.869
asset that just needs capital applied to it.

00:32:04.190 --> 00:32:09.250
How much more capital do you reckon? Is it just

00:32:09.250 --> 00:32:12.809
indefinite? Or at some point, do you reckon –

00:32:12.809 --> 00:32:15.369
I want to go around this. Is it just an indefinite

00:32:15.369 --> 00:32:17.670
requirement of capital or is it like the story

00:32:17.670 --> 00:32:20.910
with CSCL? It gets to a point and then 10 % of

00:32:20.910 --> 00:32:23.650
all revenue essentially goes to the R &D and

00:32:23.650 --> 00:32:26.569
it kind of builds up itself. Yeah, okay. It's

00:32:26.569 --> 00:32:28.990
like the Sulrat Basin with Santos, like similar

00:32:28.990 --> 00:32:34.869
thing. Yeah, yeah. So these wells are far, far,

00:32:34.869 --> 00:32:38.509
far, far more productive than a CSG well, far

00:32:38.509 --> 00:32:42.759
more. These are big wells. As I say, if you look

00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:46.200
up the Marcellus Basin in the US, we're talking

00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:52.420
multi -BCF per well potential here. Now, it costs

00:32:52.420 --> 00:32:55.920
you an awful lot more to drill than a CSG well.

00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:01.660
So there are swings and roundabouts. But again,

00:33:01.819 --> 00:33:03.059
so if you think about what's happening in the

00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:05.549
Marcellus Basin where... For a long time there,

00:33:05.670 --> 00:33:07.789
that was remote and didn't get developed because

00:33:07.789 --> 00:33:09.769
it was costing so much. But ultimately, the infrastructure

00:33:09.769 --> 00:33:12.990
gets built out. But if you can bring down your

00:33:12.990 --> 00:33:16.269
cost of drilling a well from, let's call it $30

00:33:16.269 --> 00:33:18.569
million a well today because you don't have the

00:33:18.569 --> 00:33:22.009
right kit, to let's call it $10 to $15 million

00:33:22.009 --> 00:33:26.269
a well, and you're producing, as I say, literally

00:33:26.269 --> 00:33:30.390
tens of millions of cubic feet a day, multi -BCF

00:33:30.390 --> 00:33:34.369
per well, this makes CSG look like, you know,

00:33:34.670 --> 00:33:37.990
kiddies play. These are big, big wells. Now,

00:33:38.069 --> 00:33:40.750
you don't need to drill as many wells to then

00:33:40.750 --> 00:33:43.970
feed your LNG train in the Northern Territory.

00:33:44.049 --> 00:33:46.009
Now, the LNG trains are the big capital programs.

00:33:46.250 --> 00:33:49.450
To your point, what is the capital here? LNG

00:33:49.450 --> 00:33:52.349
facilities are very capital intensive and it

00:33:52.349 --> 00:33:53.869
goes back again to the point about Northwest

00:33:53.869 --> 00:33:57.230
Shelf. Once the capital is injected and built

00:33:57.230 --> 00:33:59.369
and these liquefaction trains are in production,

00:33:59.829 --> 00:34:04.710
the capital cost is just the the cost of drilling

00:34:04.710 --> 00:34:06.410
those wells that comes down significantly as

00:34:06.410 --> 00:34:11.230
your scale goes up so um it's not it's not infinite

00:34:11.230 --> 00:34:13.530
it is a big number it's going to cost billions

00:34:13.530 --> 00:34:16.730
of dollars don't get me wrong um but this is

00:34:16.730 --> 00:34:18.849
the whole point around if you're a if you're

00:34:18.849 --> 00:34:21.389
a little junior emp company you can't you don't

00:34:21.389 --> 00:34:23.710
have access to billions of dollars but if you

00:34:23.710 --> 00:34:26.190
can prove that the assets there that the geology

00:34:26.190 --> 00:34:31.030
works that's when big company with a big checkbook

00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:33.780
comes in and says, fine, we'll develop that for

00:34:33.780 --> 00:34:39.559
you. And the small EMP guy gets soaked up. I

00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:41.440
suppose the questions everyone's asking is essentially

00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:45.280
there's three main options. It's either, what's

00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:47.840
the whole reason why? It's either pre -raise

00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:51.239
using someone else's checkbook, but that means

00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:55.409
technically, you know, a buyout. Or essentially

00:34:55.409 --> 00:34:57.769
maybe a takeover down the line and it gets swallowed

00:34:57.769 --> 00:35:00.269
up by one of the majors. You know, people may

00:35:00.269 --> 00:35:02.809
or may not want that. Or, you know, do they do

00:35:02.809 --> 00:35:04.989
it slow and have the means? And then the question

00:35:04.989 --> 00:35:07.190
becomes, they keep saying, you know, quarter

00:35:07.190 --> 00:35:09.050
three is when they're going to flow gas. And

00:35:09.050 --> 00:35:11.530
if they flow gas, does that mean there's enough

00:35:11.530 --> 00:35:14.110
revenue coming from that to essentially, you

00:35:14.110 --> 00:35:16.929
know, the $70 million required to essentially

00:35:16.929 --> 00:35:19.349
pump a couple of wells every year? So I'm just

00:35:19.349 --> 00:35:22.260
wondering. You know, if you've modelled this

00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:23.960
out of having conversations, you know, what do

00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:27.219
you think potentially might happen? Well, I mean,

00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:29.119
this is the challenge you're facing, any junior

00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:32.079
mining or energy company for that matter. You

00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:35.920
know, do you trade today, you know, bird in the

00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:43.099
hand or is it two in the bush? Clearly, if you

00:35:43.099 --> 00:35:46.460
decide to go the latter and build it yourself,

00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:49.400
Spend the money yourself. You've got more control

00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:51.380
and you've notionally got a higher percentage

00:35:51.380 --> 00:35:53.820
of a pie, but you've also got a lot more risk

00:35:53.820 --> 00:35:55.139
on your hands. As we talked about, you know,

00:35:55.139 --> 00:35:57.639
these things are not without risk and it takes

00:35:57.639 --> 00:36:00.400
a long time. So, you know, what's your cost of

00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:03.099
capital? How long can you wait? So sometimes

00:36:03.099 --> 00:36:06.579
it can be better to trade today and take those

00:36:06.579 --> 00:36:09.980
dollars or you do, you know, as obviously Tambor

00:36:09.980 --> 00:36:14.820
and or, you know, Beetaloo are trying to do and

00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:19.820
that's... you attract capital, you get someone

00:36:19.820 --> 00:36:22.480
else to pay for the cost of drilling a well to

00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.920
establish an interest in the asset. And so you

00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:29.719
as a Tamburan, you maintain an interest in the

00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:32.719
rocks, in the asset, in the ground, and you get

00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:35.400
someone else to pay their way, they cover the

00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:39.239
entire cost of the well to build up their stake

00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:43.079
in the well. So that's the path that Tamburan

00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:46.710
are on at the moment. and trying to get others

00:36:46.710 --> 00:36:50.530
to essentially play their way forward. Ultimately,

00:36:50.849 --> 00:36:53.969
you know, the long -term game here is I don't

00:36:53.969 --> 00:36:56.650
think Tambourine remains in existence. I think

00:36:56.650 --> 00:36:58.650
they will get taken out. The question is when.

00:36:58.889 --> 00:37:00.489
When the right number is put on the table is

00:37:00.489 --> 00:37:04.010
the answer to that. But, you know, there's probably

00:37:04.010 --> 00:37:07.050
a bit more gas to flow just yet. Then the bigger

00:37:07.050 --> 00:37:09.690
question is will there be an option to or will

00:37:09.690 --> 00:37:12.150
we be forced to take cash or will we get the

00:37:12.150 --> 00:37:13.949
ability to roll into the parent? That's going

00:37:13.949 --> 00:37:16.389
to be the bigger question. Oh, 100%. Now, what's

00:37:16.389 --> 00:37:18.070
the parent? Is the parent a US entity where you

00:37:18.070 --> 00:37:20.349
don't want to hold the US stock? That's a question

00:37:20.349 --> 00:37:22.130
for retail investors here, which can be a difficult

00:37:22.130 --> 00:37:24.530
one to answer. Unless they do what they do with

00:37:24.530 --> 00:37:26.789
Tamborin and essentially, oh, well, one listing

00:37:26.789 --> 00:37:28.369
and then you have the ability to have it in Aussie

00:37:28.369 --> 00:37:30.409
dollars. But then the other thing as well, from

00:37:30.409 --> 00:37:33.849
a resources standpoint, the US dollar. Let's

00:37:33.849 --> 00:37:36.210
discuss this. It's a great pivot into the currency.

00:37:37.769 --> 00:37:41.369
It's just gone from 60 cents to nearly 72 back

00:37:41.369 --> 00:37:47.309
into the high 60s. So what's that doing for the

00:37:47.309 --> 00:37:52.369
industry? Well, in Australia, you're obviously

00:37:52.369 --> 00:37:54.750
earning Aussie dollars so it's not such a big

00:37:54.750 --> 00:37:58.070
deal and your costs are all largely Aussie dollar

00:37:58.070 --> 00:38:04.230
based. It's a challenge if your revenue streams

00:38:04.230 --> 00:38:08.440
in US dollars. or your costs are in US dollars.

00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:09.920
It depends where you are located in the world.

00:38:10.260 --> 00:38:12.900
For the Aussie guys, it's not an issue. You know,

00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:17.820
I think if you're producing a commodity, and

00:38:17.820 --> 00:38:19.980
I'm stepping away from Aussie gas for the moment,

00:38:20.099 --> 00:38:21.980
if you're producing a commodity that's priced

00:38:21.980 --> 00:38:26.460
in US dollars, then, you know, you actually want

00:38:26.460 --> 00:38:31.449
a stronger US dollar, right? So it's a bit of

00:38:31.449 --> 00:38:33.690
a swings and roundabout thing. So it can be a

00:38:33.690 --> 00:38:37.150
bit of a natural hedge. You know, I think – People

00:38:37.150 --> 00:38:38.750
are not familiar with a natural hedge. I used

00:38:38.750 --> 00:38:40.449
to be in foreign currency, but this is a big

00:38:40.449 --> 00:38:42.369
one. So what is a natural hedge? Like as a fund

00:38:42.369 --> 00:38:44.210
manager, what is a natural hedge for people not

00:38:44.210 --> 00:38:48.929
familiar with it? So for us in resources, typically

00:38:48.929 --> 00:38:52.929
speaking, you know, you've got – your revenue

00:38:52.929 --> 00:38:55.690
stream is priced in US dollars. So commodities

00:38:55.690 --> 00:38:59.389
– outside of Australian gas, commodities are

00:38:59.389 --> 00:39:02.170
typically priced in US dollars. So you hear about

00:39:02.170 --> 00:39:06.389
the gold price, for example. The gold price is

00:39:06.389 --> 00:39:10.050
quoted on the evening news in US dollar terms.

00:39:10.510 --> 00:39:13.610
Now, if you're an Aussie producer, you actually

00:39:13.610 --> 00:39:17.809
receive Aussie dollars for that. But if the US

00:39:17.809 --> 00:39:20.690
dollar price is going up and the Aussie dollar

00:39:20.690 --> 00:39:24.210
is weak, those US dollars convert into a bigger...

00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:27.480
Aussie dollar revenue line. So you actually want

00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:30.139
a weak Aussie dollar. It actually works to your

00:39:30.139 --> 00:39:32.000
favor because it drives up your revenue line.

00:39:32.539 --> 00:39:36.500
Now, the natural hedge is your costs are based

00:39:36.500 --> 00:39:39.139
in Aussie dollars. So it sort of works against

00:39:39.139 --> 00:39:43.340
that flow. So you're hedging away your revenues

00:39:43.340 --> 00:39:47.159
and your costs without having to actively do

00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:48.880
anything yourself is what I mean by a natural

00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:54.489
hedge. The other thing to think about in resources

00:39:54.489 --> 00:39:58.849
more typically is that the US dollar tends to

00:39:58.849 --> 00:40:01.309
be strong at a time when commodities are weak

00:40:01.309 --> 00:40:07.750
and vice versa. So if you're a commodity producer

00:40:07.750 --> 00:40:10.550
or a commodity investor, investing in commodity

00:40:10.550 --> 00:40:14.269
companies, a weak US dollar typically means a

00:40:14.269 --> 00:40:17.030
stronger commodity price and a stronger environment

00:40:17.030 --> 00:40:20.510
for you as a mining investor or an energy investor.

00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:23.159
thanks for that since we're still on the on the

00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:25.300
politics side and then there's so many more so

00:40:25.300 --> 00:40:27.099
many more commodities to cover but i think this

00:40:27.099 --> 00:40:31.199
is a good way to get into it is uh the u .s uh

00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:34.619
announced a change to essentially what strategic

00:40:34.619 --> 00:40:38.400
reserves or you know strategic commodities uh

00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:42.260
what was and like as an example it directly impacted

00:40:42.260 --> 00:40:46.280
uh silver and that was wild to watch right so

00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:52.269
can you explain give a are now considered strategic

00:40:52.269 --> 00:40:55.110
resources and how is that affecting those commodities?

00:40:55.510 --> 00:40:59.289
Yeah, for sure. This is a big one. It's essentially

00:40:59.289 --> 00:41:02.590
like rewritten the map. This is huge. And this

00:41:02.590 --> 00:41:04.369
is something that's not understood or appreciated

00:41:04.369 --> 00:41:07.690
in my view. And that is that commodities have

00:41:07.690 --> 00:41:13.190
a strategic value. You know, we in, and we, I

00:41:13.190 --> 00:41:17.579
mean, we in the developed world, have happily

00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:22.519
outsourced the supply of our commodities, broadly

00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:28.679
speaking, to China. Now, China play a very long

00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:34.280
game and they have monopolized the supply of

00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:36.019
many commodities, not all commodities, to be

00:41:36.019 --> 00:41:39.219
fair, but many commodities because they recognize

00:41:39.219 --> 00:41:42.179
the strategic shortage of them or indeed the

00:41:42.179 --> 00:41:44.539
importance of these commodities for the future

00:41:44.539 --> 00:41:49.260
world. Now, there are many commodities that they

00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:51.880
process and they are the best part of 100 % or

00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:53.880
at least more than 90 % of the world's supply.

00:41:54.300 --> 00:41:57.599
Now, I'm talking about processed copper, lithium,

00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:02.579
graphite, rare earths, insert name of commodity

00:42:02.579 --> 00:42:09.239
here. There is a big problem in that China. controls

00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:12.619
the supply of these commodities. Now, we have,

00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:14.800
as I say, been asleep at the wheel, or at least

00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:16.780
happily outsourcing that supply for many, many

00:42:16.780 --> 00:42:20.840
years. And it was really, I mean, we started

00:42:20.840 --> 00:42:22.920
to recognise this as the world started to cotton

00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:24.199
on to the fact that we're going to need a whole

00:42:24.199 --> 00:42:28.059
lot more commodities for electrification. But

00:42:28.059 --> 00:42:32.059
it was actually seemingly only in the last sort

00:42:32.059 --> 00:42:35.800
of 12 months when the Trump administration, and

00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:38.000
we just Park your views on Donald Trump for a

00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:42.940
moment. The Trump administration very early on

00:42:42.940 --> 00:42:45.920
in this current administration came to the realisation

00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:48.440
that they are in an untenable situation where

00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:54.340
their biggest political adversary, potentially,

00:42:54.619 --> 00:43:01.219
biggest economic adversary, is also controlling

00:43:01.219 --> 00:43:04.440
almost 100 % of many of their critical commodities.

00:43:04.989 --> 00:43:08.230
It's an untenable situation, right? Wars have

00:43:08.230 --> 00:43:11.570
been fought unless. 100%. Exactly right. So,

00:43:11.570 --> 00:43:14.909
I mean, we saw in July last year. Well, that's

00:43:14.909 --> 00:43:16.170
the whole reason why they went into Venezuela.

00:43:17.299 --> 00:43:20.679
So this is, I mean, we're over the can of worms

00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:23.059
here. I'll back off the Venezuela one for now.

00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:24.820
But, okay, just since I over the can of worms

00:43:24.820 --> 00:43:26.960
to anyone listening, right, you know, so it says

00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:28.739
the Trump government, again, park your views

00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:30.719
on Trump for a second. What do they do? It's

00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:32.639
like a siege, right? So you get all the food

00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:34.760
you need in. So they cut deals in NVIDIA, put

00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:36.679
the tariffs up, you know, shore up the ship.

00:43:37.070 --> 00:43:38.809
decrease the debt so they're strong, look after

00:43:38.809 --> 00:43:40.769
the middle class. And then you go, right, now

00:43:40.769 --> 00:43:42.389
I need to take out my enemies or get ourselves

00:43:42.389 --> 00:43:45.030
in a better position. So China, to your point,

00:43:45.050 --> 00:43:48.070
has every single resource known to man, but what

00:43:48.070 --> 00:43:51.070
don't they have? Access to cheap fuel, oil and

00:43:51.070 --> 00:43:53.570
gas. So what do they do? They cut off, they went

00:43:53.570 --> 00:43:55.389
to us and essentially cut off the people that

00:43:55.389 --> 00:43:57.789
were dealing to them, Venezuela, Iran, Russia.

00:43:58.309 --> 00:44:01.730
Exactly right. Yeah. Now that is spot on and

00:44:01.730 --> 00:44:06.880
there's, you know, certainly, we're not a lone

00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:11.039
voice in having a view that what's going on in

00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:15.079
Iran is not obviously just about Iran. Venezuela

00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:17.800
was the entree. Iran is the main course. And

00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:20.119
there is a much bigger game at play here between

00:44:20.119 --> 00:44:23.179
the US and China. You know, the US is obviously

00:44:23.179 --> 00:44:26.579
desperately trying to assert some degree of power

00:44:26.579 --> 00:44:32.059
where they can. And it is part of a bigger game,

00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:38.800
bigger geopolitical game of chess that will play

00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:42.760
out obviously over a long time. Because at the

00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:45.340
end of the day, to your point, China obviously

00:44:45.340 --> 00:44:48.199
sources, they don't have an infinite supply of

00:44:48.199 --> 00:44:51.699
domestic oil and gas. They do source it from

00:44:51.699 --> 00:44:56.980
other places, including Russia. But they do control

00:44:56.980 --> 00:44:59.480
many other commodities. So how does the US exercise

00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:05.320
that power or try to rebalance that power? So

00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:09.920
what commodities are now considered a strategic

00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:12.219
resource that weren't before and how has that

00:45:12.219 --> 00:45:15.739
impacted those commodities? Well, it varies by

00:45:15.739 --> 00:45:18.019
country, to be fair. You know, each country has

00:45:18.019 --> 00:45:20.219
its own designated list of critical commodities.

00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:25.000
But in more recent times, you know, major commodities,

00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:27.159
not the esoteric one, but major commodities like

00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:30.179
copper. Copper has only recently been added to

00:45:30.179 --> 00:45:34.090
the US list of critical. commodities. You know,

00:45:34.090 --> 00:45:37.949
the others which you'd not surprisingly hear,

00:45:38.010 --> 00:45:40.829
you know, stuff like lithium or rare earths or

00:45:40.829 --> 00:45:45.010
the like are obviously important. In more recent

00:45:45.010 --> 00:45:46.929
times, you know, there's the recognition that,

00:45:46.929 --> 00:45:49.269
you know, defence applications are actually what

00:45:49.269 --> 00:45:53.539
sort of... really drawn a spotlight to this rather

00:45:53.539 --> 00:45:56.900
than electrification. So it's gallium, it's germanium,

00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:59.960
it's rare earths for smart weapons, it's tungsten,

00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:03.599
it's all these various commodities, which again,

00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:07.519
guess what? China dominates significantly the

00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:11.119
supply of. So that's why we love the concept

00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:15.699
of investing in producers. these commodities

00:46:15.699 --> 00:46:18.800
or developers of these commodities in locations

00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:23.300
other than China. And, you know, we're going

00:46:23.300 --> 00:46:26.780
to increasingly see a premium paid for non -Chinese

00:46:26.780 --> 00:46:29.920
assets or at least, you know, commodities that

00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:31.880
are being supplied by non -Chinese companies.

00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:35.539
You know, the reason why the US offered MP Materials,

00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:39.940
the US company MP Materials, approximately double

00:46:39.940 --> 00:46:42.679
the spot price for their rare earths, I mean,

00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:45.340
US -based rare earth mine. They offered to put

00:46:45.340 --> 00:46:48.139
a floor in the rare earth price of $110 a kilo

00:46:48.139 --> 00:46:53.139
when spot was 60. Now, that's the first. It's

00:46:53.139 --> 00:46:57.219
wild. It's good, though. It has to occur. It

00:46:57.219 --> 00:46:58.860
has to occur. Otherwise, you're just going to

00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:01.260
give it away. That's right. Or more importantly,

00:47:01.460 --> 00:47:03.900
like, you know, love the JP Morgan guys, they

00:47:03.900 --> 00:47:06.000
can just, you know, have a crack at the silver

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:07.880
price, whatever they want, short it all the way

00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:10.849
down, then bring it back up again. 100%. That

00:47:10.849 --> 00:47:13.150
huge short squeeze in the silver price happened

00:47:13.150 --> 00:47:15.530
intentionally because everyone realised we can

00:47:15.530 --> 00:47:17.829
no longer play this game anymore. If there is

00:47:17.829 --> 00:47:20.230
essentially a flaw in the silver price and we're

00:47:20.230 --> 00:47:22.869
not out by that town, we're stuck. Yep, yep,

00:47:22.889 --> 00:47:25.210
that's right. And that's right. So the Chinese

00:47:25.210 --> 00:47:27.730
put export controls on silver. Why do they put

00:47:27.730 --> 00:47:29.469
export controls on silver? Because silver is

00:47:29.469 --> 00:47:32.489
not just a speculator's dream. It's actually

00:47:32.489 --> 00:47:35.289
a really important commodity for... You name

00:47:35.289 --> 00:47:38.150
it with regards to soldering or circuitry or

00:47:38.150 --> 00:47:40.829
solar panels. On the demand front, is it accurate?

00:47:41.989 --> 00:47:44.989
I'm a jack -of -all -trades or whatever it is,

00:47:45.030 --> 00:47:46.750
wear too many hats, read too much information.

00:47:46.789 --> 00:47:50.070
Is it true that with all the requirements of

00:47:50.070 --> 00:47:52.010
silver for the electrification of the world and

00:47:52.010 --> 00:47:55.889
all the tech, is it true that if they wouldn't

00:47:55.889 --> 00:47:57.969
have made all the products right now, that's

00:47:57.969 --> 00:48:00.869
literally like all the silver that gets mined

00:48:00.869 --> 00:48:05.780
for the year would just be gone? in the silver?

00:48:07.099 --> 00:48:11.519
Yes and no. I mean, the majority of the world's

00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:13.760
silver is mined as a byproduct of gold mining.

00:48:14.460 --> 00:48:17.659
It's actually not primary silver mines. So there's

00:48:17.659 --> 00:48:22.699
a weird geologic quirk that there's actually

00:48:22.699 --> 00:48:27.159
very few primary silver mines. They are in Central

00:48:27.159 --> 00:48:31.420
America and North America, so up in Mexico and

00:48:31.420 --> 00:48:34.500
a little bit into the US. Other than that, most

00:48:34.500 --> 00:48:36.099
of the world's silver comes from gold mining.

00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:40.320
So actually, the challenge you face is trying

00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:42.360
to determine what the supply will be because

00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:43.980
it will actually be a function of the gold price.

00:48:46.500 --> 00:48:48.719
That's interesting. I learned something. Actually,

00:48:48.760 --> 00:48:50.079
I probably did know that. I always thought it

00:48:50.079 --> 00:48:52.679
was actually the main thing. When you go after

00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:54.480
gold, you're going after copper, as the saying

00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:55.900
goes. But I forgot about the silver. Well, that's

00:48:55.900 --> 00:48:58.400
true. Copper can be a byproduct as well. Or actually,

00:48:58.460 --> 00:49:00.960
often copper mines have… Gold is a byproduct.

00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:03.000
But, yeah, silver is most commonly a byproduct

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:05.300
of gold. Sorry for the tangent, but let's get

00:49:05.300 --> 00:49:07.400
back to the rare earths because this one is really

00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:10.820
interesting. So it's $100 essentially as a floor

00:49:10.820 --> 00:49:14.539
price. And what's been the impact of that? It's

00:49:14.539 --> 00:49:16.380
driven the spot price to something approximating

00:49:16.380 --> 00:49:20.260
$110 a kilo. Wow. It's a surprise. So, yeah.

00:49:20.780 --> 00:49:24.719
So I guess, you know, one of the ultimate ironies,

00:49:24.860 --> 00:49:29.360
rare earths are not very rare. you know the the

00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:33.659
processing of rare earths so rare earth ore can

00:49:33.659 --> 00:49:36.000
be found in many places around the world but

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:39.480
the processing of those rare earths into the

00:49:39.480 --> 00:49:43.420
the oxides that are required for you know permanent

00:49:43.420 --> 00:49:47.139
magnets and the like is largely or uniquely done

00:49:47.139 --> 00:49:50.280
in china because it's a dirty process it's also

00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:52.900
done in some parts of southeast asia but it's

00:49:52.900 --> 00:49:58.389
a dirty process um so uh What have you bought

00:49:58.389 --> 00:50:01.289
after this came out or if you thought this was

00:50:01.289 --> 00:50:03.969
coming out? What wasn't in the portfolio that

00:50:03.969 --> 00:50:06.289
you've now acquired in order to benefit from

00:50:06.289 --> 00:50:10.690
this? Yeah, look, we own, so we bought into Linus

00:50:10.690 --> 00:50:14.809
being the obvious, the very obvious analogue.

00:50:14.809 --> 00:50:18.699
So outside of China. MP Materials and Linus are

00:50:18.699 --> 00:50:21.179
essentially the only rare earth producers, rare

00:50:21.179 --> 00:50:23.920
earth miners outside of China. So you've got,

00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:27.039
as I say, the Mountain Pass mine in the US and

00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:29.519
Mount World, which is the Linus mine in Western

00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:34.519
Australia. They are in production today. So there's

00:50:34.519 --> 00:50:36.519
actually very few ways of getting exposure to

00:50:36.519 --> 00:50:39.820
rare earth mining today. What's the other one?

00:50:39.860 --> 00:50:43.059
Is it Brazilian rare earths? Is that the one?

00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:46.039
Yeah. So outside of those, there's a bunch of

00:50:46.039 --> 00:50:49.349
Australian – development hopefuls. And there

00:50:49.349 --> 00:50:51.309
is an area in Brazil called the Caldeira where

00:50:51.309 --> 00:50:52.650
you've got Brazilian rare earths, you've got

00:50:52.650 --> 00:50:56.210
meteoric, you've got viridis. So there's a few

00:50:56.210 --> 00:50:58.269
of these junior developers who are hoping to

00:50:58.269 --> 00:51:04.550
build new rare earth mines. And those Brazilian

00:51:04.550 --> 00:51:07.110
projects are in what's called ionic clays and

00:51:07.110 --> 00:51:11.730
they are reasonably high grade. And in our view,

00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:16.579
the most likely to be the next cabs off the development

00:51:16.579 --> 00:51:21.579
rank. Interesting. You made a comment before

00:51:21.579 --> 00:51:23.440
that rare earths aren't necessarily something

00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:24.780
you dig out of the ground. It's something you

00:51:24.780 --> 00:51:27.420
get and then you have to manufacture the process

00:51:27.420 --> 00:51:30.960
and then convert it to something that's usable.

00:51:31.639 --> 00:51:35.179
We haven't discussed titanium. Have you got any

00:51:35.179 --> 00:51:39.159
exposure to titanium? And I think from memory...

00:51:40.139 --> 00:51:42.800
The only one really currently available that's

00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:46.360
changed the process has been, I think it's IperionX,

00:51:46.519 --> 00:51:50.619
IPX? Yeah. Have you got any exposure to IperionX?

00:51:50.920 --> 00:51:54.039
Not IperionX. We own a company called 6K Additives.

00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:59.980
So similar theme. So these are metal powder companies.

00:52:00.139 --> 00:52:03.119
So IperionX is producing. How does it work? Is

00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:06.380
hydrogen that converts the – are they grounded

00:52:06.380 --> 00:52:09.000
up in a powder and they do something to it where

00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:11.880
they can change the scrap? Because to my understanding,

00:52:12.019 --> 00:52:14.840
making original titanium from scratch, you're

00:52:14.840 --> 00:52:17.039
potentially losing like 80 % of the commodity

00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:21.760
in the process. Yeah, so that's right. So casting

00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:26.360
was your traditional – casting and pressing was

00:52:26.360 --> 00:52:32.599
your traditional source of titanium parts. That,

00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:34.699
to your point, if you imagine you've got a block

00:52:34.699 --> 00:52:39.480
and you cut a piece out of it to get your titanium

00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:42.239
part, there's a lot of wastage. And that's what

00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:47.019
Iperion X talk to. What we are going, and the

00:52:47.019 --> 00:52:50.960
next step in terms of trying to improve that

00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:55.219
yield of each unit of titanium is 3D printing.

00:52:55.559 --> 00:53:00.309
So it's additive manufacturing. So what you do

00:53:00.309 --> 00:53:04.090
is you take… So you can 3D print titanium now?

00:53:04.349 --> 00:53:08.750
Yeah. Yeah, so titanium parts using titanium

00:53:08.750 --> 00:53:12.710
powders you put into a, well, pretty specialised

00:53:12.710 --> 00:53:17.920
3D printer to print parts. That's right. Wow,

00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:19.659
could you imagine a tank? Some of these tanks

00:53:19.659 --> 00:53:22.260
are like, you know, it's a collapse of bridge.

00:53:22.460 --> 00:53:24.019
But if you've added a tank, that would be lighter

00:53:24.019 --> 00:53:27.500
and stronger. So what was the name of the company?

00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:33.440
Yeah, 6K Additives. It's listed on the ASX under

00:53:33.440 --> 00:53:36.760
the ticker 6KA. It only relatively recently IPO'd,

00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:40.280
but it's a US -based entity. I'm writing that

00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:45.590
down. Please do. So like Hyperion X, Hyperion

00:53:45.590 --> 00:53:50.590
X has their own technology to undertake this

00:53:50.590 --> 00:53:52.849
process. 6K Additive has their own technology.

00:53:53.489 --> 00:53:57.210
And what they do is you're essentially taking

00:53:57.210 --> 00:53:59.849
– yeah, you can take waste. So coming back to

00:53:59.849 --> 00:54:02.329
your point around how much wastage there is in

00:54:02.329 --> 00:54:04.829
your standard casting of titanium parts, they

00:54:04.829 --> 00:54:07.570
can take that waste, convert it into a powder,

00:54:07.670 --> 00:54:13.409
and then sell that powder. to your additive manufacturing.

00:54:13.730 --> 00:54:18.070
You know, Apple using titanium, you know, titanium

00:54:18.070 --> 00:54:20.570
goes into your Apple Watch and your phones and

00:54:20.570 --> 00:54:24.309
whatnot. You know, if you get your yield, you

00:54:24.309 --> 00:54:26.429
know, a multiple of what you get from casting,

00:54:26.630 --> 00:54:29.550
clearly there's a massive benefit of that. So,

00:54:29.610 --> 00:54:34.409
yeah, so 6K can do titanium and then a raft of

00:54:34.409 --> 00:54:37.570
other metals as well that they can extract from

00:54:37.570 --> 00:54:42.539
their technology. I'm trying to put you in the

00:54:42.539 --> 00:54:47.699
hot seat, but 6K and IPEX sound similar. Since

00:54:47.699 --> 00:54:49.300
this is a manufacturing process, isn't there

00:54:49.300 --> 00:54:52.239
intellectual property involved? So are they completely

00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:56.599
different in their processes or? Yeah, the technologies

00:54:56.599 --> 00:55:00.820
are different in how they undertake that process

00:55:00.820 --> 00:55:03.199
of creating the powders. So it's creating the

00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:07.320
powders is the key here. And there is a yield.

00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:10.139
um component to the powder as well because the

00:55:10.139 --> 00:55:15.280
3d printer requires a very um uniform uh powder

00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:18.780
so not not just in terms of the size of the the

00:55:18.780 --> 00:55:22.900
sphere the powder sphere but also this um the

00:55:22.900 --> 00:55:27.639
the uniformity of the shape of that sphere so

00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:33.300
uh if you have a um much more uniform sphere

00:55:33.300 --> 00:55:35.710
that comes out of the bottom of your your powder

00:55:35.710 --> 00:55:37.969
manufacturing process, you get a higher yield.

00:55:38.130 --> 00:55:41.650
So, yes, there's an angle there too. I have to

00:55:41.650 --> 00:55:46.469
disclose, I personally own Hyperion X. I'm just

00:55:46.469 --> 00:55:49.269
curious. Now I'm just curious. Yeah, absolutely.

00:55:49.429 --> 00:55:51.510
Talking my own book, you know, we're human beings.

00:55:51.670 --> 00:55:54.389
But I'm just curious as why did you choose, say,

00:55:54.409 --> 00:55:59.179
6K over, say, Hyperion X? which, as you mentioned,

00:55:59.739 --> 00:56:03.159
6KA is just IPO'd. HyperionX has been around

00:56:03.159 --> 00:56:06.159
for a while now. What made you essentially choose

00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:08.039
that player over the other or instead of just

00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:11.059
buying both? Well, I guess for the time being,

00:56:11.159 --> 00:56:13.619
we think there's a bigger value proposition in

00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:19.780
6K. So it's a whole lot cheaper than HyperionX.

00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:22.840
Now, HyperionX, you could argue, are further

00:56:22.840 --> 00:56:28.389
advanced at this stage, but post -IPO, It would

00:56:28.389 --> 00:56:31.250
appear that 6K additives now have the funding

00:56:31.250 --> 00:56:33.170
to essentially grow to produce a very similar

00:56:33.170 --> 00:56:37.489
amount of titanium powders as Hyperion X, but

00:56:37.489 --> 00:56:40.250
trading at a fraction of the market cap. On the

00:56:40.250 --> 00:56:42.889
other positive, I suppose, instead, like Australia,

00:56:43.030 --> 00:56:45.010
if this works, and it's in Australia, is the

00:56:45.010 --> 00:56:47.070
manufacturing in Australia? No, it's in the US.

00:56:47.309 --> 00:56:50.769
So it's US with US, an interesting amount of

00:56:50.769 --> 00:56:54.659
US government funding as well. Well, that's a

00:56:54.659 --> 00:56:57.380
shame. I was kind of – I like the angle of essentially

00:56:57.380 --> 00:56:59.920
Australian -made. So, you know, war kicks off

00:56:59.920 --> 00:57:01.000
already. Well, they can bring their technology

00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:04.420
here. They can bring their technology here. But

00:57:04.420 --> 00:57:10.820
for now, they are a US -based entity listed on

00:57:10.820 --> 00:57:14.719
the ASX. But, yeah, US -based manufacturing and

00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:17.179
obviously tapping into what is clearly a pretty

00:57:17.179 --> 00:57:19.599
big market. It's a pretty massive market. You

00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:21.159
think about everything that's made out of aluminium

00:57:21.159 --> 00:57:22.639
that you could potentially make with titanium.

00:57:23.699 --> 00:57:28.239
Correct. It's fascinating. All right, well, what

00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:30.159
haven't we covered? All right, what's your opinion

00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:32.199
on gold? Come on, for the gold bugs out there.

00:57:32.900 --> 00:57:35.920
Mate, you're going to hate me. I was actually

00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:37.500
– I had this conversation with a client just

00:57:37.500 --> 00:57:40.639
about two hours ago. They said, what's your view

00:57:40.639 --> 00:57:42.699
on gold? I said, well, it's kind of ironic that

00:57:42.699 --> 00:57:44.159
the commodities guy in the room is going to tell

00:57:44.159 --> 00:57:47.199
you he doesn't have a view on gold. The point

00:57:47.199 --> 00:57:48.920
being that, I mean, I can build a supply -demand

00:57:48.920 --> 00:57:51.320
model for any commodity, right, other than probably

00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:56.699
gold. Because let's be honest, the biggest demand

00:57:56.699 --> 00:58:01.280
driver for gold is not an industrial use, it's

00:58:01.280 --> 00:58:05.420
central banks. Speculative, yeah. Now, I'm not

00:58:05.420 --> 00:58:07.739
saying that central banks are going to be selling

00:58:07.739 --> 00:58:09.380
the gold that they've bought more recently. In

00:58:09.380 --> 00:58:14.460
fact, I think that de -dollarisation trade, that's

00:58:14.460 --> 00:58:19.769
moving away from US Treasuries to... or some

00:58:19.769 --> 00:58:23.190
form of non -fiat currency is real and it's happening,

00:58:23.250 --> 00:58:24.710
the trains left the station is not coming back.

00:58:25.230 --> 00:58:28.269
So that will continue. I just can't tell you

00:58:28.269 --> 00:58:31.070
whether I think gold should be $4 ,500 or $5

00:58:31.070 --> 00:58:34.590
,500 or $4 ,000 or $6 ,000 or whatever the number

00:58:34.590 --> 00:58:38.269
is in between. Now, I own gold producers, I own

00:58:38.269 --> 00:58:42.750
gold explorers, but I own those for reasons external

00:58:42.750 --> 00:58:44.530
to whether I think the gold price is going up

00:58:44.530 --> 00:58:49.159
or not. That makes a lot of sense. One thing

00:58:49.159 --> 00:58:52.659
I wouldn't mind discussing is royalties. Just

00:58:52.659 --> 00:58:57.400
try Becker. I love royalties, but there was a

00:58:57.400 --> 00:58:59.699
particular case that came out in Australia that's

00:58:59.699 --> 00:59:02.980
going to get challenged in the high court. What's

00:59:02.980 --> 00:59:04.920
it called? I'll find it. But it's essentially

00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:08.400
going to challenge whether or not a royalty is

00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:10.559
considered intellectual property or essentially

00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:14.989
a contract. When a miner dies now, that's just

00:59:14.989 --> 00:59:20.329
happened. While I find that, does Tribeca have

00:59:20.329 --> 00:59:24.929
any access to mining royalties? We don't own

00:59:24.929 --> 00:59:29.389
any royalties to date. We don't currently invest

00:59:29.389 --> 00:59:31.909
in any royalty companies, not to say that we

00:59:31.909 --> 00:59:35.670
haven't in the past or won't in the future. To

00:59:35.670 --> 00:59:38.769
your point around royalties, yeah, they can be

00:59:38.769 --> 00:59:42.079
a magnificent investment. from the perspective

00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:46.800
of long -dated, don't leave you exposed to capital

00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:51.500
overruns and operational missteps and theoretically

00:59:51.500 --> 00:59:54.699
give you complete upside to exploration success

00:59:54.699 --> 00:59:56.900
later in an asset's life or asset life extension.

00:59:58.239 --> 01:00:01.539
I'm pitching you what you already know. What

01:00:01.539 --> 01:00:03.860
has been more challenging in recent times has

01:00:03.860 --> 01:00:07.489
been just the valuation proposition. and just

01:00:07.489 --> 01:00:10.409
saying cheap evaluation propositions in explorers

01:00:10.409 --> 01:00:12.349
or developers or producers rather than the royalty

01:00:12.349 --> 01:00:14.889
companies. But that's not a fundamental view

01:00:14.889 --> 01:00:17.530
that we don't like royalties. When you buy into

01:00:17.530 --> 01:00:20.590
some of these companies, do sometimes the availability

01:00:20.590 --> 01:00:28.230
to purchase into royalties appear? So I guess

01:00:28.230 --> 01:00:30.989
two aspects to that. Number one, when you buy

01:00:30.989 --> 01:00:34.369
into a producer who has a royalty held by someone

01:00:34.369 --> 01:00:38.920
else, that can be a detractor. So that's one

01:00:38.920 --> 01:00:43.340
way of answering your question. With regards

01:00:43.340 --> 01:00:48.480
to companies owning royalties, it's kind of unusual

01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:51.639
to – you see companies – Sorry, I didn't mean

01:00:51.639 --> 01:00:53.340
buying into a company that owns their own royalties.

01:00:53.500 --> 01:00:55.739
I mean, is there any chances like on any of the

01:00:55.739 --> 01:00:57.820
juniors which you pick up? and then they require

01:00:57.820 --> 01:00:59.980
a source of funding and then potentially – Oh,

01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:02.119
look, that can be a source of funding. Yeah,

01:01:02.519 --> 01:01:04.480
look, it can be a source of funding. Yeah, absolutely.

01:01:05.219 --> 01:01:09.380
And, well, crikey, we've just seen BHP sell one

01:01:09.380 --> 01:01:14.280
to Wheaton Precious, right? And in that instance,

01:01:14.440 --> 01:01:19.019
to be fair to BHP, that is 100 % an oh, wow.

01:01:19.079 --> 01:01:24.070
That is several billion dollars of – newly daylighted

01:01:24.070 --> 01:01:26.210
value. It certainly wasn't reflected in their

01:01:26.210 --> 01:01:30.769
share price and is now in their hip pocket. So

01:01:30.769 --> 01:01:35.329
it's extraordinary that they were able to do

01:01:35.329 --> 01:01:41.309
that. But it sort of goes back to the cost of

01:01:41.309 --> 01:01:43.690
capital argument as to why you'd also might contemplate

01:01:43.690 --> 01:01:47.110
buying a Woodside here today for the infrastructure

01:01:47.110 --> 01:01:49.909
value. I mean, it's a cost of capital argument,

01:01:49.929 --> 01:01:54.199
right? So Woodside has a cost of capital of X

01:01:54.199 --> 01:01:56.920
and an infrastructure player has a cost of capital

01:01:56.920 --> 01:02:01.400
of, you know, half X. So they can afford to pay

01:02:01.400 --> 01:02:03.139
more for assets that just have a very steady

01:02:03.139 --> 01:02:07.619
income stream and they can therefore come in

01:02:07.619 --> 01:02:10.000
and either buy infrastructure assets from Woodside

01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:12.139
or at least invest alongside them to produce

01:02:12.139 --> 01:02:16.659
them. For a Wheaton Precious who has a, you know,

01:02:16.699 --> 01:02:20.000
that implied IRR of that stream was... maybe

01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:23.360
2 % at best. But when your cost of capital is

01:02:23.360 --> 01:02:28.079
1%, it's a good deal. But it's certainly BHP's

01:02:28.079 --> 01:02:30.139
cost of capital is more than 2%. So it makes

01:02:30.139 --> 01:02:34.920
sense from a financial alchemy perspective. So

01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:38.199
look, I don't necessarily have an issue with

01:02:38.199 --> 01:02:41.079
it from a junior company utilizing a revenue

01:02:41.079 --> 01:02:45.880
stream that might be non -core. And we talked

01:02:45.880 --> 01:02:48.219
about it before with regards to byproducts. If

01:02:48.219 --> 01:02:51.599
you are building a, let's say it's a copper mine

01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:55.480
and you've got a gold by -product, certainly

01:02:55.480 --> 01:02:58.119
having some partial streaming of your gold to

01:02:58.119 --> 01:03:00.980
a royalty company might enable you to get that

01:03:00.980 --> 01:03:03.639
production into existence that you might not

01:03:03.639 --> 01:03:07.840
otherwise have the ability to fund. Yeah, royalties

01:03:07.840 --> 01:03:09.940
are interesting. I suppose another way to think

01:03:09.940 --> 01:03:11.539
about it is, well, what are you looking for?

01:03:11.579 --> 01:03:13.539
Are you looking for capital growth to participate

01:03:13.539 --> 01:03:17.860
as the mine grows or are you happy? with potentially

01:03:17.860 --> 01:03:22.280
less, but income compounding every, you know,

01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:24.059
every single time you get a check and it just,

01:03:24.119 --> 01:03:26.940
you know, compounding income and you get the

01:03:26.940 --> 01:03:29.119
same amount every single time. Well, sorry, a

01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:31.559
percentage of the sales every single time. Yeah,

01:03:32.039 --> 01:03:36.400
yeah. It depends. Well, it does. And so, well,

01:03:36.539 --> 01:03:39.300
those royalties vary in shape as well, right?

01:03:39.739 --> 01:03:42.639
Well, it did well for the Reinharts. It did very

01:03:42.639 --> 01:03:43.800
well for the Reinhardts. It did very well for

01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:46.099
the Reinhardts. Exactly right. Exactly right.

01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:51.500
So, you know, therein lies an example of future

01:03:51.500 --> 01:03:55.019
value unknown at the time. And now whether you're

01:03:55.019 --> 01:03:59.139
getting a flat dollar amount per tonne, pound,

01:03:59.239 --> 01:04:00.940
ounce, or whether you're getting a percentage

01:04:00.940 --> 01:04:05.480
of revenue, two very different things. Very different

01:04:05.480 --> 01:04:07.199
things. I'll take the percentage. Thank you very

01:04:07.199 --> 01:04:12.670
much. 100%. Every day of the week. Yes, so a

01:04:12.670 --> 01:04:17.070
client sent me this through. So it was the Kirker

01:04:17.070 --> 01:04:19.590
Locker Gold decision, extinguishing royalties

01:04:19.590 --> 01:04:25.690
in insolvency. SCL Australia Limited. So what

01:04:25.690 --> 01:04:27.289
it said is the consequence, because they were

01:04:27.289 --> 01:04:29.690
ruled to be contractual, the court found they

01:04:29.690 --> 01:04:32.050
could be extinguished underneath a deed of company

01:04:32.050 --> 01:04:35.429
arrangement. during a company's insolvency restructuring.

01:04:35.530 --> 01:04:37.869
That's in Australia. That just happened in December.

01:04:38.769 --> 01:04:41.230
We think potentially that it may only impact

01:04:41.230 --> 01:04:43.610
the small miners, but my understanding is a lot

01:04:43.610 --> 01:04:45.489
of the royalty players in the market have all

01:04:45.489 --> 01:04:49.130
got contingency hold to the parent, like say

01:04:49.130 --> 01:04:51.710
Santos or something like that. And it's not impacting

01:04:51.710 --> 01:04:54.869
Canada and America, but it may be upheld. Find

01:04:54.869 --> 01:04:56.690
out. It's a big one for anybody. It is a big

01:04:56.690 --> 01:05:00.369
one. It's a very, very, very, very big precedent.

01:05:02.349 --> 01:05:07.650
Yes, be careful. Be careful out there. Any other

01:05:07.650 --> 01:05:10.469
thoughts on what's happening in the world today

01:05:10.469 --> 01:05:16.309
and any other views? We've touched on the strategic

01:05:16.309 --> 01:05:19.570
value of commodities. I think what's happening

01:05:19.570 --> 01:05:20.710
in the world today, Crikey, there's a lot going

01:05:20.710 --> 01:05:23.110
on in the world today, but I think what's for

01:05:23.110 --> 01:05:31.340
us, the demand side is being focused on. from

01:05:31.340 --> 01:05:33.920
a risk perspective, what's happening in the Middle

01:05:33.920 --> 01:05:36.280
East and how that might impact demand and high

01:05:36.280 --> 01:05:39.219
oil prices and blah, blah, blah. What's, I think,

01:05:39.260 --> 01:05:42.280
being forgotten is the supply impact. You talked

01:05:42.280 --> 01:05:45.920
about second -order effects and something like

01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:50.179
helium. I'm sure you know it. Your listeners

01:05:50.179 --> 01:05:53.900
may not be aware that more than 50 % of the world's

01:05:53.900 --> 01:05:57.300
sulphur goes through the Strait of Hormuz. Guess

01:05:57.300 --> 01:05:58.579
what? You need a whole lot of sulfur to make

01:05:58.579 --> 01:06:00.280
sulfuric acid and you need sulfuric acid to make

01:06:00.280 --> 01:06:04.300
copper. So, you know, if you're looking down

01:06:04.300 --> 01:06:08.139
the barrel of a significant delay of ships transiting

01:06:08.139 --> 01:06:10.719
the Strait of Hormuz carrying a significant component

01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:12.960
of the world's seaborne sulfur, we are looking

01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:14.860
at a significant supply interruption for copper.

01:06:15.679 --> 01:06:18.039
Now, that's not being talked about, right? Not

01:06:18.039 --> 01:06:22.599
much. Yeah, I was just thinking about all the

01:06:22.599 --> 01:06:24.780
impact because, you know, property booming right

01:06:24.780 --> 01:06:26.179
now in Queensland is doing well. You've got the

01:06:26.179 --> 01:06:28.119
Olympics coming through, but that's going to

01:06:28.119 --> 01:06:30.619
require a whole bunch of… A whole bunch of copper,

01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:33.940
a whole bunch of all sorts of things. Well, at

01:06:33.940 --> 01:06:37.619
the end of the day, the entire electrification

01:06:37.619 --> 01:06:41.880
journey, we talked about grids earlier. The world's

01:06:41.880 --> 01:06:44.940
grids remain massively underinvested, right?

01:06:45.019 --> 01:06:50.630
So the US power grid… the EU power grid. I mean,

01:06:50.650 --> 01:06:55.210
these are both 40 plus year old pieces of infrastructure

01:06:55.210 --> 01:06:58.969
that are designed to last for 30 years. They

01:06:58.969 --> 01:07:02.150
are creaking massively. Now, how do you address

01:07:02.150 --> 01:07:03.349
that? Well, you've got to go and put a whole

01:07:03.349 --> 01:07:04.949
bunch more transmission lines and distribution

01:07:04.949 --> 01:07:08.190
lines. And they are obviously aluminium rich,

01:07:08.289 --> 01:07:12.610
they're copper rich. And every piece of circuitry,

01:07:12.610 --> 01:07:16.989
every new device you've got, it's all requiring

01:07:16.989 --> 01:07:21.250
a huge amount of copper. So there's a reason

01:07:21.250 --> 01:07:24.989
why just about every big mining company on the

01:07:24.989 --> 01:07:27.710
face of the planet desperately wants more copper.

01:07:28.090 --> 01:07:30.309
But guess what? They're going to buy it because

01:07:30.309 --> 01:07:33.349
it's cheaper to buy than build. So that's why

01:07:33.349 --> 01:07:35.130
you want to be exposed and why we're increasingly

01:07:35.130 --> 01:07:38.650
exposed to the developers and explorers out there

01:07:38.650 --> 01:07:40.110
because they're the ones that are going to get

01:07:40.110 --> 01:07:43.420
bought because it's... For the guys like BHP,

01:07:43.519 --> 01:07:46.500
they want more exposure to copper. It's actually

01:07:46.500 --> 01:07:50.000
their portfolio of organic opportunities is pretty

01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:52.679
thin right now. So they will be coming shopping

01:07:52.679 --> 01:07:54.840
for it. They're going to buy it and we want to

01:07:54.840 --> 01:07:56.420
be invested in those names they're going to buy.

01:07:57.699 --> 01:08:00.639
It makes so much sense. They're essentially selling

01:08:00.639 --> 01:08:02.559
it off to someone that wants to take the financial

01:08:02.559 --> 01:08:04.539
risk and have a crack at it. And then just like

01:08:04.539 --> 01:08:06.820
Tamborin, if it gets to the point and now it's

01:08:06.820 --> 01:08:10.000
proof of concept, it's starting to flow, fatten

01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:12.989
up the land for slaughter. Yeah, yeah. So, I

01:08:12.989 --> 01:08:16.069
mean, the copper price must go up from here,

01:08:16.130 --> 01:08:19.109
talking about the strategic value of commodities.

01:08:19.550 --> 01:08:22.090
In our view, it has to go up to incentivise more

01:08:22.090 --> 01:08:26.649
supply. The demand side is being focused upon,

01:08:26.829 --> 01:08:29.229
but the supply interruptions are not. I talked

01:08:29.229 --> 01:08:32.569
about the Strait of Hormuz. The three largest

01:08:32.569 --> 01:08:34.569
underground copper mines in the world all had

01:08:34.569 --> 01:08:36.350
significant interruptions last year. They were

01:08:36.350 --> 01:08:37.810
out of action. Some of them are still out of

01:08:37.810 --> 01:08:39.800
action. You know, there's a reason why copper

01:08:39.800 --> 01:08:43.779
went to $6 a pound because it wasn't just the

01:08:43.779 --> 01:08:45.539
demand side. In fact, demand actually wasn't

01:08:45.539 --> 01:08:48.020
tremendous. It's the supply interruptions. So

01:08:48.020 --> 01:08:51.119
supply is a massive challenge. It's a huge challenge.

01:08:51.159 --> 01:08:55.300
And, you know, the average timeframe today to

01:08:55.300 --> 01:08:57.840
go from first successful exploration drill hole

01:08:57.840 --> 01:09:01.119
to first production of a copper mine is now 16

01:09:01.119 --> 01:09:07.270
years. 16? One six. 16 years. I thought gas in

01:09:07.270 --> 01:09:10.729
Beedaloo was long. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, this

01:09:10.729 --> 01:09:13.390
takes it to a whole new level. That's a whole

01:09:13.390 --> 01:09:17.970
new level, 16 years. 16 years, 16 years. So it's

01:09:17.970 --> 01:09:20.229
hard. It's hard. Now, it's hard because it takes

01:09:20.229 --> 01:09:22.710
a long time to, you know, drill it out and prove

01:09:22.710 --> 01:09:24.210
that it exists and it's hard because it takes

01:09:24.210 --> 01:09:25.510
time to permit and it's hard because it takes

01:09:25.510 --> 01:09:28.609
time to fund. But at the end of the day, mining

01:09:28.609 --> 01:09:32.970
company management teams and boards have been

01:09:32.970 --> 01:09:38.199
told for… 15 years now since the GFC, post -GFC

01:09:38.199 --> 01:09:40.979
rollover, that they're terrible allocators of

01:09:40.979 --> 01:09:43.239
capital. They've been told, whatever you do,

01:09:43.460 --> 01:09:46.699
we want you to pay a dividend, buy back your

01:09:46.699 --> 01:09:52.239
stock, pay back your debt. Whatever you do, do

01:09:52.239 --> 01:09:56.199
not put it in the ground because you are a terrible

01:09:56.199 --> 01:09:58.140
allocator of capital. So guess what? All their

01:09:58.140 --> 01:10:01.340
incentive schemes have changed. And now you've

01:10:01.340 --> 01:10:02.819
got a situation where they're being paid for

01:10:02.819 --> 01:10:06.390
a return. of capital rather than a return on

01:10:06.390 --> 01:10:09.130
capital. And it's why we've got a situation today

01:10:09.130 --> 01:10:12.970
where BHP, as I say, is desperate looking for

01:10:12.970 --> 01:10:14.470
stuff to buy because they haven't been putting

01:10:14.470 --> 01:10:17.859
their money in the ground. So it's... It's extraordinary,

01:10:18.020 --> 01:10:21.739
right? That sounds like the good old story of

01:10:21.739 --> 01:10:23.960
like the entrepreneur builds it and then the

01:10:23.960 --> 01:10:26.500
entrepreneur dies and then essentially the banker

01:10:26.500 --> 01:10:29.659
takes over with unfortunately not as much creative

01:10:29.659 --> 01:10:31.960
genius and then they don't want to lose anything

01:10:31.960 --> 01:10:34.500
so they don't do anything and then keep it all

01:10:34.500 --> 01:10:37.039
safe. But then it goes the way of a BlackBerry

01:10:37.039 --> 01:10:40.180
because they just don't know how to innovate

01:10:40.180 --> 01:10:42.439
and actually, you know, and Steve Jobs comes

01:10:42.439 --> 01:10:46.060
in and reinvents a brand new wheel and then they're

01:10:46.060 --> 01:10:49.239
cooked. And they created the problem which they

01:10:49.239 --> 01:10:51.420
were trying to avoid. That's right. That's right.

01:10:51.539 --> 01:10:53.300
So we've got the incentive structures are all

01:10:53.300 --> 01:10:55.979
wrong. And that potentially will change. But

01:10:55.979 --> 01:10:58.380
it comes back to my point around time it takes

01:10:58.380 --> 01:11:00.640
to build a new mine. It takes so long to address

01:11:00.640 --> 01:11:03.359
this issue. So anyone who's got the perception

01:11:03.359 --> 01:11:06.020
out there that they think $6 copper is enough

01:11:06.020 --> 01:11:10.880
to incentivize masses of new supply, I don't

01:11:10.880 --> 01:11:14.430
think it's the case. The market will do what

01:11:14.430 --> 01:11:16.590
the market does. But what was the expression?

01:11:16.750 --> 01:11:19.430
Show me how someone's remunerated and I'll show

01:11:19.430 --> 01:11:22.949
you how they behave. Spot on. That's it. Well,

01:11:23.029 --> 01:11:25.930
on that note, it's bloody awesome and always

01:11:25.930 --> 01:11:28.689
great having you on. I love speaking to you,

01:11:28.689 --> 01:11:32.850
Todd. If anyone wants to learn more about Tribeca

01:11:32.850 --> 01:11:36.989
or reach out to you, how can they find you? So

01:11:36.989 --> 01:11:40.989
tribecaip .com .au is our website. We've got

01:11:40.989 --> 01:11:44.170
some information on there on our products. You

01:11:44.170 --> 01:11:45.930
can find out about all of our resources funds

01:11:45.930 --> 01:11:49.609
and our uranium products and our 2050 strategy,

01:11:49.829 --> 01:11:52.210
et cetera. Or you can reach out to our investor

01:11:52.210 --> 01:11:54.470
relations team and they'll put you in touch with

01:11:54.470 --> 01:11:58.250
me. Nice. And also for Retail Investors, it's

01:11:58.250 --> 01:12:00.930
listed as well. 100%. Good point. I should have

01:12:00.930 --> 01:12:02.529
possibly said that. Good thing you're on the

01:12:02.529 --> 01:12:05.550
roll. So, yeah, Tribeca Global Natural Resources

01:12:05.550 --> 01:12:08.850
Limited is a listed investment company listed

01:12:08.850 --> 01:12:13.229
under the ticker TGF on the ASX. Daily liquidity.

01:12:13.909 --> 01:12:18.550
Trading at a discount. All right, Todd. Well,

01:12:18.609 --> 01:12:20.029
thank you very much for coming on The Rate of

01:12:20.029 --> 01:12:22.010
Change and I'll catch up with you soon for sure.

01:12:22.350 --> 01:12:35.760
Pleasure. Thanks, Murdoch. The Rate of Change

01:12:35.760 --> 01:12:38.180
podcast is presented by its speakers. The views

01:12:38.180 --> 01:12:40.140
and opinions expressed in this podcast are those

01:12:40.140 --> 01:12:42.079
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01:12:42.079 --> 01:12:43.720
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01:12:43.720 --> 01:12:46.760
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01:12:59.199 --> 01:13:01.260
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01:13:01.260 --> 01:13:03.869
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01:13:10.229 --> 01:13:12.390
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01:13:14.449 --> 01:13:19.050
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01:13:19.050 --> 01:13:20.850
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01:13:20.850 --> 01:13:23.670
by Murdoch Venture Capital Pty Ltd. Any client

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relationship or referral that arises through

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the Rate of Change in connection with services

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outside the scope of financial services requiring

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an Australian financial services license, including...

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Without limitation, private credit, property

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development or other non -AFSL activities shall

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remain the sole property of the rate of change.

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Where listeners wish to obtain advice in relation

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to their investments or other matters that fall

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within the scope of financial services requiring

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an AFSL, the rate of change may refer them to

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York Wealth Management Pty Ltd. York Wealth Management

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is referenced in this podcast solely in its capacity

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as sponsor. References in the introduction to

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the rate of change with York Wealth Management.

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are sponsorship acknowledgements only and do

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not imply ownership or control of this podcast

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by York Wealth Management. To learn more about

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York Wealth Management as a sponsor, please visit