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Welcome to the Conversion Science and Earned Student Forum podcast on collaboration.

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I'm Paul Verschure and together with my colleague Babani Rao,

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we speak with Swami Shantam Ritananda

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Puri, a Brahmacari monk at the Mata Amritananda Maya Center in Chicago.

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For his engagement in social education and spiritual activities worldwide,

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Swami Puri shares his perspectives So collaboration, how it differs from collaboration,

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elements and intangibles that are involved, and how it is interwoven in most aspects of it.

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Welcome, Shanta, to our podcast.

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Thank you. Great that you could join us.

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So before we really delve into the substance of around collaboration,

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it would be helpful that maybe you give a little sketch of your life trajectory

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that brought you to where you are today as Swami Shantan Ritannadapuri.

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Yes, okay. Okay. Well, it really started in college because I was focused on

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the humanities and it was more,

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philosophy and religion, but my focus was on Asia, including Japanese.

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But what happened is at the end of those four years, I became very inspired

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by the classical concept of justice as being like the ideal perfection in human relationships.

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So what that did is that took me to apply for officer candidate school in the

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armed forces, because I wanted to protect justice. That was my concept.

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I was accepted, but then I ended up taking an offer to work for the Japanese

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government in a rural fishing village because I spoke the language.

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And there I learned a lot about international collaboration,

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intercultural, interlingual collaboration, which really taught me quite a bit. it.

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And after some time, though, I found myself being pulled towards my deeper roots.

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And I that would be my roots in like philosophy and religion.

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So it was I think I was about 25 when I joined a traditional ashram in South

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India and began a new life in a hut on the Arabian Sea.

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And that that ashram ended up blossoming into a worldwide humanitarian mission.

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And we have people collaborating with us in every country of the world, practically.

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But I ended up, I started off by training as a novice monk.

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And I lived there for 10 years before I was sent somewhere.

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And during those 10 years, I became very involved in a variety of collaborative projects.

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The first one was the construction of a 1,500-bed hospital and a project to

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build 100,000 houses for the underserved people.

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And then I was dispatched to Tokyo for 10 years.

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And that was where I got involved in our projects in Kenya, the disaster relief

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in Japan and in the Philippines, a public health project in Papua New Guinea,

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and a lot of interfaith activities with the Buddhist community.

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And the most recent decade has landed me in Chicago area, where I've been involved

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in a lot of collaborations in the fields of youth activity and the environment,

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online education and scientific research.

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So these have all become my duties as part of that massive humanitarian organization.

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And currently, where are you located? Oh, sorry, my Bluetooth is not working.

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Hang on, I'm going to turn it off. Okay.

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Please say that again. No, so I was just asking where you're located now. Okay.

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Today? At the moment, I'm in India. Okay, good. Okay, but the home base for

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your work is now Chicago?

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Chicago, and that's where a scientific research center is going to start soon.

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Okay, great. So, well, thank you very much for that summary.

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So, to open up, so what is collaboration and what is it good for?

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I was thinking i was asking myself the

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same thing i i was thinking i i'm

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not qualified to offer a definition but but

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it was funny because when you when you when this invitation came along you know

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i asked myself that what what is it you know and uh and because i it it didn't

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approach It didn't initially evoke an immediate image,

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but then I gave it a little thought,

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and it seems to me it's similar to cooperation but feels different.

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It's not quite the same, and I knew that much.

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But what I can say is what cooperation feels like and what collaboration looks like to me.

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So for me, cooperation is like if there's one guy doing a task,

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and if you give him three more people, then the task can be done in one quarter of the time.

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That's what cooperation seems to feel like to me.

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Whereas collaboration feels really different.

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It's like through that collaboration, we become stronger and we're well-rounded.

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We have more talents. talents, we have more resources, human or otherwise,

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and so we become more adaptable to the circumstances.

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Resources that are brought in by the the participants

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um i feel that they yield more

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intangible benefits that wouldn't

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have been achieved otherwise and uh that's basically my uninitiated sense of

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the concept but but when i looked at the concept of collaboration even more

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you know i came to the conclusion that basically my whole adult life has been

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a conglomeration of various collaborations.

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And if we include these intangible goals and rewards.

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We could even say that everybody's life is kind of compromised by variegated

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and overlapping collaborations.

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And the whole world, from a holistic perspective, I felt like it was very difficult

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to come up with an example that it doesn't qualify as a collaboration of some kind.

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But now, what are these intangibles? The intangibles that I'm thinking of are,

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one would be intangible in the sense of you cannot detect it with your five senses.

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So it would be like personal growth.

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It would be trust. it would be a deeper understanding about other cultures and

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yourself and a lot of other such uh.

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Experiences, but you can't quantify

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them so easily, not like revenue or promotions or something like that.

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But now, so you've been involved in a number of really big projects that have

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collaborative aspects, but could you maybe take one or two examples where you say, look,

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it's by virtue of these following features that these projects,

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as large-scale collaboration, succeeded?

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Right. Yeah. So, I mean, I've been fortunate in a lot of ways that most of the

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people that I collaborate with have shared some similar values, I guess you could say.

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And they, in general, we all have all felt that these intangible results and goals were important.

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And we gave them, we tend to give, or I do at least, give as much importance

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to those intangibles than compared with the physical or concrete results.

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So I'll give you a few examples.

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That 100,000 house building project,

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I found that I learned how to be sensitive to the subtle cues that people are

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giving when they don't feel happy with their experience.

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And then we can adapt

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that project and what we're doing every day

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to take that into consideration initially i

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didn't quite get it i i wasn't sensitive enough to

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people's exhaustion or their cultural reactions and the culture shock but over

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time i learned a lot more about that and how to understand people's emotional

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state based on some external cues.

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And also I learned the importance of having a big heart.

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And the more people we have that have the big hearts, the better the project does.

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But can you make it a bit more tangible for us who weren't there in your project? Sure.

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Yeah, so what I would say is when these intangibles are very striking,

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then we get more people to participate the following year.

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You know, like, for example, we listen to them, and we listen to them,

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and we don't judge them, we don't...

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They're really here for. Some people come with the intention of just trying

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to get a job and have put it on their resume.

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So when they go back to Japan or wherever it is, they have a better CV or a bio.

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But my goal is to have them have a really profound experience when they join

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that, for example, the housing project.

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And so that they can learn more, not just about other cultures, but about themselves.

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And then so when they go back, yeah it looks

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good on the on the bio but also it changes

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their life and they will tell other people and other people

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will come and we will have more participation more transformation so these to

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me are it's hard to quantify that because you know the reason why increases

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is not due to like advertising or um we invested more money it's because somebody

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was inspired by participating

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and they influenced other people but no

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i have a yeah i have a question

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so you think that this kind of transformation could not

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have happened without collaboration and because you said i mean if what if they

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would uh what if there was no collaboration maybe there was an individual that

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were actually going into the field and not a bunch of people so i'm just wondering

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how do you these these things about being sensitive to whether somebody is happy or not

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being the intangibles that you had mentioned?

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Is it, can you not pick them up without collaboration?

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You can. Of course you can.

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I mean, that would be more of, but depends on how sensitive that person is and

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how sincere they are about how much focus they have on those in the first place.

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But I think a lot of people learn about it through the collaboration because

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it stimulates different parts of their individuality when they interact with

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people who are different from them and who have different values.

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But there's always a coalescence of some of those values.

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And so once you realize this person is also just as sincere as you are,

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then you can say, well, I'm wondering why he or she values such and so so much.

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I want to understand that better. So I feel that that collaborative effort really

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opens our eyes to deeper levels of our own self, too.

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Shant, I'm confused about this still. I'm sorry.

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No problem. What is really interesting now, collaboration, as you described

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it also earlier, means that you have a bunch of individuals who also coalesce around the common goal.

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But now what you're describing is the trajectory of a single individual to be

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pulled into that process because there's self-interest to be pulled in,

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like my CV will look better.

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And in some sense, I could even argue that the coordinator of the collaborative

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process has their own interest of opening their mind to a broader perspective on reality.

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But we're still not talking about collaboration now, because this is how tens

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or hundreds or thousands of people together in space and time in some way achieve that common goal.

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And I have not understood yet how you then manage that part of the project to

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actually build your thousands of houses. Thank you.

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Right so um could you just be

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you're talking about the logistics of it

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or the strategy behind it or yeah well in the end

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look you have i don't know tens hundreds of

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people working together at any point yes i'm in a project right

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okay how do you how do you keep them working together in that to achieve that

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common goal of building these houses and of course then meta level you can of

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course say yeah but building the houses is more like a metaphorical act to come

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to a deeper end But I would like to unpack that better.

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Sure, sure. Well, I mean, that is a little more of the,

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we could call it the sort of the logistics of it and how we put together the

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teams and actually do that.

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Is that an example of what you're looking for?

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Well, yeah, I would like to understand how you have these hundreds of people

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working together. Yeah, okay, okay.

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Yeah. Well, one thing is definitely trust is a big factor because I don't have,

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I'm not involved in all the dozens of countries that the people are coming from.

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So we're assuming that we have guidelines to bring the people over.

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So that part I don't really get involved in, but we trust that there's somebody

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who is coordinating it on that side.

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But before all the people come, someone like myself or another person will go

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there and make sure everything is um prepared and that it's going to be um and say,

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not a a swami i think maybe he's looking for more uh in the direction like once

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the children once the students from uh japan are actually there on the ground

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how do you actually get them involved in working on the on the project with

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the others like with the indians how does.

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That's where a lot of language issues come in

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because especially japanese people they don't speak even english

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so we have i mean i translate other

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people translate and we divide them up

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into crews of about 10 depending

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on the site and we and depending on

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how many tools we have and then we we there's no usually there's no transportation

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so they have to walk and i walk to like five to ten work sites and then i'm

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constantly running around checking in on them Did the mason arrive when he said he did?

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Because if he doesn't arrive, they're just sitting there and doing nothing because

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they've got the tools and everything, but they don't know how to lay bricks.

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So you have to go and you have sometimes the person who is in the house,

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you know, they want to communicate something to the people.

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And if they can do that, it will make the participants overjoyed and it'll give

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them a great experience.

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And then they resume the work. So there's always something we have to be constantly

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visiting every work site so that we make sure that people are able to do the

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work that they came to do,

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the tangible work, and also have a good experience so that they can communicate

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with those people and feel the impact that they're making and learning why these.

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And for the people on the recipient side, for the beneficiaries,

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they also want to understand why these college students came from all the way

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from Japan with their hard-earned money that they worked a part-time job.

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And so why have they done that? And there has to be both the...

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Physical part of providing them with the tools and help they need to build something

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as well as the i guess you could say the tools to have a good experience but

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now how so in a sort of minimal interpretation you could say well look we take

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a bunch of people with good intentions,

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right and we just put them together and then by virtue

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of the good intentions things will sort of work out

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because you give them the tools and the bricks and something will

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happen yeah but i would assume that

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that there's an additional coordination on top of

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that yes not not i don't necessarily mean like top down direction but there

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must be additional especially in to to deal with intangibles of the process

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right there must be let's say communication information yes playing a structuring

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role. Could you explain that?

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Sure. Sure. So one thing you said made me want to fill in a little blank that

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I left there is that structurally we have people making sure that these houses

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are not going to fall over tomorrow.

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They make sure that the roof is done properly with the concrete and all that.

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There are people who are watching that.

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But in terms of,

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The rest of it, basically, someone like myself is making sure that all those things take place.

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Does this always work out, or does it sometimes also fail, this process? It fails sometimes.

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I have a few examples.

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Okay. See, it's often due to lack of communication between two coordinators

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on our side or their side.

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The people who are coming from foreign countries.

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And one case, we were doing it

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on an island that had no vehicles on it anywhere, and it was very remote.

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And the only way to get the raw materials there was by boat,

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like those Venetian boats which you punt with a long end for miles and miles.

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And it was really tiresome. And the Japanese college students that year,

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they had just unloaded a bunch of boats and they were totally exhausted.

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But this one other coordinator from the project who was a little senior to me,

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he insisted that they wake up in the middle of the night and go and do it again.

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And then I knew at that point that it was not going to work.

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These guys are just going to say, I'm not going to like it at all.

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But then I said, if anybody wants to come, they're welcome to come.

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And I said, I'm going to go. I'm going to load the boat and unload it.

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And if anybody wants to join me, they can.

00:20:47.564 --> 00:20:52.944
And a few people came, but it left a very sour taste in their mind, in their mouth.

00:20:53.344 --> 00:20:55.524
And they didn't come the next year, actually.

00:20:56.904 --> 00:20:59.624
So it took a year for them to recuperate from that.

00:21:00.804 --> 00:21:08.384
But so intangibles in the end have to be constructed, right? So we have to our mind,

00:21:09.556 --> 00:21:12.256
assign a label or a construct or a

00:21:12.256 --> 00:21:15.156
process to or a value right a

00:21:15.156 --> 00:21:18.416
rule to an intangible so and

00:21:18.416 --> 00:21:21.276
you mentioned trust so how do you

00:21:21.276 --> 00:21:24.496
manage trust then in in this situation like

00:21:24.496 --> 00:21:27.936
in the case also of these students who might feel in some

00:21:27.936 --> 00:21:31.736
sense abused right so how is trust sure they

00:21:31.736 --> 00:21:34.876
probably felt a little bit um vulnerable and

00:21:34.876 --> 00:21:37.716
not you know i probably i

00:21:37.716 --> 00:21:40.436
should have protected them a little bit more because that's because

00:21:40.436 --> 00:21:46.996
i'm for them i'm the protector from outside influences and and but but really

00:21:46.996 --> 00:21:53.836
um they've over the next few years of our collaboration with them and and this

00:21:53.836 --> 00:21:59.436
is not just the housing project other projects as well we we build up that trust through our own.

00:22:01.016 --> 00:22:05.976
Actions that's the that's what i feel is most important we see that people are

00:22:05.976 --> 00:22:12.136
ready to to to make some kind of sacrifice of their own to further this noble

00:22:12.136 --> 00:22:14.036
project, whatever it may be.

00:22:14.436 --> 00:22:21.256
And then we share that same value and also showing some humility,

00:22:21.876 --> 00:22:25.036
showing some flexibility, some maturity.

00:22:25.136 --> 00:22:30.436
All of these qualities go towards us really trusting the character of that person

00:22:30.436 --> 00:22:32.836
and then say, look, I trust you fully.

00:22:32.916 --> 00:22:36.296
At one point, we can just say, whatever you say, we're going to go with that.

00:22:36.296 --> 00:22:40.516
And then they say, okay, on your side, you take care of all that. We trust you.

00:22:41.296 --> 00:22:47.476
Now, do you see a trade-off here between trust, which is in some sense also given, right?

00:22:47.796 --> 00:22:50.256
And the need to explain objectives?

00:22:51.056 --> 00:22:54.116
Because you could say the more trust you lose in the situation,

00:22:54.356 --> 00:22:59.756
the more in some you have to cudgel your participants by explaining why this

00:22:59.756 --> 00:23:02.576
is all very relevant and important. Do you see a trade-off there?

00:23:04.276 --> 00:23:10.556
Could you say a little bit one more time? I'm trying to understand what the trust and goals, right?

00:23:10.596 --> 00:23:15.656
So for instance, if someone loses trust in leadership, then leadership could

00:23:15.656 --> 00:23:19.996
respond by saying, oh, I will explain in more detail why this is super important

00:23:19.996 --> 00:23:22.856
for the whole world and everybody and you included. Therefore,

00:23:22.976 --> 00:23:24.236
you should follow my lead.

00:23:24.576 --> 00:23:30.436
If I trust the leader or the a coordinator blindly you don't need to tell me

00:23:30.436 --> 00:23:35.256
anything about planning on doing because I'll just follow you right so do you

00:23:35.256 --> 00:23:41.176
see also a trade off between goals explanation and trust yeah also yeah,

00:23:42.379 --> 00:23:52.559
Yes, I, as a leader of sorts, I will, I mean, I've learned to ask a lot of questions

00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:55.279
before I ask them to follow me.

00:23:55.539 --> 00:24:01.519
You know, I need to know what their limitations are, what their goals are and

00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:04.059
all that, make sure that I can help them achieve those.

00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:11.859
And they ask me a lot of questions also. So I think clarifying those goals ahead

00:24:11.859 --> 00:24:13.839
of time is really, really important.

00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:18.019
And then after that, once we're in the thick of it, it's a lot of just,

00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:19.739
you could call it blind trust.

00:24:20.019 --> 00:24:23.439
But there's also every night, another thing I should point out,

00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:29.359
every night we have meetings about how the day's work went.

00:24:29.739 --> 00:24:34.379
And then even the students, everybody participates in groups.

00:24:34.499 --> 00:24:37.819
And then we talk about how it went. Was it successful?

00:24:37.819 --> 00:24:40.559
What didn't work and then if it didn't work then

00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:43.299
the next day we don't do it we don't wait for the whole project to

00:24:43.299 --> 00:24:47.039
end okay so so

00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:49.759
that also means there's a collective if you want

00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:53.819
interpretation and meaning generation stage yes

00:24:53.819 --> 00:24:59.759
yes would that be a good way to describe it yeah i mean they the meaning what

00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:05.799
they learned from that day they they we tend to look at it sooner than later

00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:10.999
so So we understand what did we learn and then we can leverage that for the next day.

00:25:11.499 --> 00:25:16.619
And, um, and also funny stories. And it's, it's a time to kind of relax and,

00:25:16.639 --> 00:25:21.319
and get out of your head and get out of, you know, that exertion and then just

00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:24.499
sit and reflect without, uh, any judgment.

00:25:24.659 --> 00:25:29.279
And so I find it's very helpful for us, any collaboration.

00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:34.979
Right. But then how many, so how many people have gone through this process?

00:25:36.939 --> 00:25:45.299
Thousands uh-huh just just the um the housing project alone i mean there's somehow we i i got,

00:25:45.959 --> 00:25:51.319
engrossed in that topic but there's a lot of other you know examples right and

00:25:51.319 --> 00:26:00.039
how many but how many different cultures uh for that for the uh housing project or,

00:26:01.159 --> 00:26:06.919
let's start with housing and then in general okay so the the first few um.

00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:11.279
Projects alone in the housing were about

00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:15.279
each time about 10 to 15 countries and um

00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:22.639
we got up to about 20 20 countries and i think our biggest group was about 200

00:26:22.639 --> 00:26:29.339
people at once and that was this was another challenging one they landed in

00:26:29.339 --> 00:26:32.679
Ahmedabad the day that the Godhra incident took place.

00:26:33.647 --> 00:26:39.047
Are you familiar with that? Yeah, the Ghotra incident, do you know about that, Paul? Please explain.

00:26:39.907 --> 00:26:44.067
This was when, it is a very controversial thing, this is when a train got burnt

00:26:44.067 --> 00:26:46.747
out that was having Hindu pilgrims.

00:26:47.487 --> 00:26:51.827
Supported by the Muslims, and then the Hindus attacked the Muslims in the state

00:26:51.827 --> 00:26:55.287
of Gujarat, and thousands were killed in civil unrest.

00:26:55.547 --> 00:27:00.967
I mean, they were lynched, and it was like, really, it was a bloodbath,

00:27:01.647 --> 00:27:06.667
and it was a communal fight between the Hindus and the Muslims in the state of Gujarat.

00:27:07.047 --> 00:27:10.427
Very, very, very, very, very difficult.

00:27:10.787 --> 00:27:15.507
And that took place as the Japanese students and other people from around the

00:27:15.507 --> 00:27:19.327
world were on the airplanes to land right in ground zero.

00:27:19.767 --> 00:27:25.967
So we hid for three days in the city and then we drove to that place where we

00:27:25.967 --> 00:27:26.727
were building the houses.

00:27:26.987 --> 00:27:29.887
And it was scary in the beginning, but what happened,

00:27:29.887 --> 00:27:33.267
these everybody wanted to come they they

00:27:33.267 --> 00:27:36.147
said even if you had told me before we got on the airplane we still wanted

00:27:36.147 --> 00:27:39.047
to come right and then very hard work but

00:27:39.047 --> 00:27:42.067
they they bonded with the local people

00:27:42.067 --> 00:27:47.027
and they learned a traditional dance and then actually when the when the governor

00:27:47.027 --> 00:27:52.187
of the state came who was now the prime minister they before him and amma was

00:27:52.187 --> 00:27:57.147
our inspiration he um they about 150 students were doing a traditional dance

00:27:57.147 --> 00:28:01.547
in the traditional dress and that was the the thing that made them so happy.

00:28:02.267 --> 00:28:09.307
Right. Because what I want to get to is individual difference and cultural difference.

00:28:10.587 --> 00:28:15.367
That's why I want to look a little bit at the number. In this whole process that you now describe.

00:28:18.827 --> 00:28:23.727
How many individual failures are there that people just drop out of the process,

00:28:23.987 --> 00:28:26.107
they cannot keep up, they cannot adhere?

00:28:27.567 --> 00:28:31.367
What's your dropout? Yeah, I'm not so high.

00:28:31.447 --> 00:28:37.027
Actually, there was one woman who came after the tsunami in 2004.

00:28:37.487 --> 00:28:46.027
She came for rebuilding houses in the southeast of India where the tidal wave hit, the tsunami hit.

00:28:46.307 --> 00:28:49.467
And she came to this site once.

00:28:49.767 --> 00:28:52.987
And then she just never came again. And it was too hot for her.

00:28:52.987 --> 00:29:03.367
And I didn't know, but she had a psychological problem that she didn't notify us about.

00:29:03.747 --> 00:29:05.907
And she wasn't taking her medicine.

00:29:08.167 --> 00:29:09.607
That might not help.

00:29:13.347 --> 00:29:18.267
Yeah, yeah. And there are some problems like that.

00:29:18.267 --> 00:29:23.087
But usually, oh, another problem, I'll tell you, sharing a failure,

00:29:23.187 --> 00:29:31.747
is that in Kune one year, I didn't pay enough attention to the kitchen conditions.

00:29:32.765 --> 00:29:38.585
And dozens of people got food poisoning. And every day we were taking three

00:29:38.585 --> 00:29:41.145
or four people to the hospital for IV.

00:29:41.485 --> 00:29:44.445
But some of those same people came again.

00:29:44.885 --> 00:29:48.885
They really like it. Right. Not food poisoning.

00:29:49.205 --> 00:29:50.825
But that's interesting, right?

00:29:50.865 --> 00:29:55.065
Because it shows that there's a generic process here that seems to work.

00:29:55.305 --> 00:29:59.205
But now do you see any cultural differences there? Because you have people from

00:29:59.205 --> 00:30:03.045
dozens of different countries. Oh, yeah. Does that affect the process?

00:30:04.745 --> 00:30:07.685
It makes it more complex, for sure.

00:30:08.425 --> 00:30:16.405
And I and the others who are helping make it go forward, either from the foreign

00:30:16.405 --> 00:30:17.725
side or from the local side.

00:30:18.405 --> 00:30:26.585
We all understand that we have to make some adjustments of our own without burdening other people.

00:30:26.585 --> 00:30:31.605
And we have to sometimes talk

00:30:31.605 --> 00:30:35.705
individually with people who are having a problem sometimes having a big group

00:30:35.705 --> 00:30:42.525
discussion about certain factors that need to be addressed whether it's a foreign

00:30:42.525 --> 00:30:51.145
issue or a domestic issue and so there's sacrifice I would say is involved to make things.

00:30:51.985 --> 00:30:54.785
Right because it means you have to spend more

00:30:54.785 --> 00:30:57.785
energy more time you know and sometimes you

00:30:57.785 --> 00:31:01.345
know it's really hard to be one of the leaders because you don't get a lot of

00:31:01.345 --> 00:31:05.285
sleep you know you sometimes don't get food and you're walking long distances

00:31:05.285 --> 00:31:12.745
it's over 30 degrees celsius right so yeah it's without without wanting to tempt

00:31:12.745 --> 00:31:17.025
you to to let's say make racial stereotypes or cultural stereotypes,

00:31:17.821 --> 00:31:21.141
What are the main dimensions on which you see this variability?

00:31:21.601 --> 00:31:26.501
You could, for instance, imagine that people from certain cultures have not

00:31:26.501 --> 00:31:30.901
really been trained in speaking up, while in other cultures they speak up too much.

00:31:31.221 --> 00:31:35.601
So what are the main dimensions you see there in these cultural differences

00:31:35.601 --> 00:31:37.201
in the context of collaboration?

00:31:38.001 --> 00:31:41.181
Collaboration um i it depends on

00:31:41.181 --> 00:31:44.061
where i am because i've done

00:31:44.061 --> 00:31:47.361
it in so many countries that i i basically

00:31:47.361 --> 00:31:50.861
go by the culture of that country because it

00:31:50.861 --> 00:31:56.161
it's the safest way i find because look we're doing it here in australia or

00:31:56.161 --> 00:32:01.281
fiji or papua new guinea this is their country let's all try to adapt to their

00:32:01.281 --> 00:32:07.821
culture and then it's easier to get people to collaborate in that because they realize that,

00:32:07.861 --> 00:32:10.261
well, no, this is not US, this is not France,

00:32:10.381 --> 00:32:15.061
it's not UK or something like that. So it makes more sense.

00:32:15.281 --> 00:32:20.141
And that then also requires that I have to understand that culture,

00:32:20.161 --> 00:32:22.141
or whoever else is coordinating.

00:32:22.601 --> 00:32:31.441
Like in Papua New Guinea, I had the country director for or the CHI,

00:32:31.521 --> 00:32:34.041
Clinton Health Access Initiative.

00:32:35.061 --> 00:32:40.361
And then he was very helpful in bridging that gap. So I was a newcomer to that country.

00:32:41.481 --> 00:32:44.421
So you give me the solution, right?

00:32:44.461 --> 00:32:47.961
Because in some sense you're saying, well, we built in a reference,

00:32:48.101 --> 00:32:51.661
a cultural reference, and that's where we are. That's the host culture.

00:32:51.841 --> 00:32:57.721
Yeah. But the first question is, what is the variability across the different

00:32:57.721 --> 00:33:00.261
cultures that you have identified?

00:33:02.608 --> 00:33:04.128
Because apparently, you need

00:33:04.128 --> 00:33:07.508
to ground it, right? You need to put a reference in order to overcome it.

00:33:08.588 --> 00:33:17.068
Yeah. I find that it's somewhat due to the nation of origin of that person,

00:33:17.148 --> 00:33:20.488
but I find it's kind of more personality, really.

00:33:20.788 --> 00:33:29.888
There are very fastidious Indians, and there are some careless Japanese people,

00:33:29.888 --> 00:33:35.148
but not not as many as there are I would say like careless Americans because I'm from America.

00:33:36.128 --> 00:33:38.888
I have a question that kind of rides

00:33:38.888 --> 00:33:41.708
off on that question because I was gonna if I can

00:33:41.708 --> 00:33:44.548
just interrupt so I know a lot of the talk has been

00:33:44.548 --> 00:33:47.828
about goals right common goals and things like that but I

00:33:47.828 --> 00:33:50.788
was just wondering and it's kind of related to what Paul just

00:33:50.788 --> 00:33:53.568
asked you people you have one

00:33:53.568 --> 00:33:56.888
common goal like say building a house is a goal and but

00:33:56.888 --> 00:33:59.788
I find that even something as tangible as building a house the

00:33:59.788 --> 00:34:02.988
way that people understand the goal can be very different and

00:34:02.988 --> 00:34:06.228
so i was wondering if that that has a cultural element to

00:34:06.228 --> 00:34:08.848
it or not just like what paul is asking right what is

00:34:08.848 --> 00:34:11.528
the variable thing is how and you were saying it's more of an

00:34:11.528 --> 00:34:14.208
individual thing and not necessarily a cultural thing but

00:34:14.208 --> 00:34:17.708
even in terms of understanding the goal is it do do

00:34:17.708 --> 00:34:20.288
all people of one culture understand the goal in a

00:34:20.288 --> 00:34:22.968
certain way from a different cult group is there

00:34:22.968 --> 00:34:27.548
a cultural aspect to understanding the goal i definitely

00:34:27.548 --> 00:34:30.428
i i'm but i'm not

00:34:30.428 --> 00:34:33.488
so sure i i think the

00:34:33.488 --> 00:34:40.388
personal perspective is what actually determines the final experience of the

00:34:40.388 --> 00:34:47.248
person but my my experience is also that people come in with some preconceived

00:34:47.248 --> 00:34:50.868
notions about what's going to happen through this collaboration.

00:34:51.888 --> 00:34:56.868
And that's definitely a cultural thing that they're coming, you know,

00:34:56.928 --> 00:35:02.468
like, I don't know, like a US, somebody who's a, actually, I'll give you an

00:35:02.468 --> 00:35:03.788
example of a guy from Australia.

00:35:03.968 --> 00:35:08.508
He was working in the road transportation department in Australia,

00:35:09.288 --> 00:35:12.428
in Adelaide, and he has built so many roads.

00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:17.159
So he's got it in, he's an engineer and he's just looking at it from that perspective.

00:35:17.279 --> 00:35:19.059
All right, we're going to make a road and everything.

00:35:19.259 --> 00:35:22.879
No, but, uh, but when he got there, he realized that, you know,

00:35:22.879 --> 00:35:27.599
a lot of it is just digging holes, you know, with your own two hands and that

00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:33.879
the rock is in Gujarat after the earthquake and the ground is so hard that you only get blisters.

00:35:33.939 --> 00:35:36.179
You don't get, you can't dig hardly at all.

00:35:36.539 --> 00:35:40.659
And, and another guy from France, he broke his pinky finger on the first day

00:35:40.659 --> 00:35:44.059
and, and And he had to decide whether he was going to keep lifting,

00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:48.679
you know, these hollow blocks or just take it easy.

00:35:48.799 --> 00:35:51.159
And he kept doing it. There's a guy named Tejas.

00:35:51.599 --> 00:36:00.079
So they kind of continued their participation while leaving their expectations aside. side.

00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:07.559
And then one thing I've noticed about people is that conclusion of that two

00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:12.439
weeks or three weeks, however long it is, that is the most important part for them, the closure.

00:36:12.919 --> 00:36:17.179
And that determines a lot of their experience. They come with certain expectations

00:36:17.179 --> 00:36:21.499
and ideas and fantasies about how it's going to go.

00:36:21.799 --> 00:36:26.059
But then at the end, just seeing that

00:36:26.059 --> 00:36:29.419
family occupy that house for the the first time and

00:36:29.419 --> 00:36:32.479
everybody crying or the children's looking so

00:36:32.479 --> 00:36:35.059
happy with their new rooms when they were living in a

00:36:35.059 --> 00:36:40.119
shack until then you know that's that then they forget about all those ideas

00:36:40.119 --> 00:36:45.599
and they just feel so satisfied that they could even come so and that part is

00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:51.179
not such a cultural thing it's just your humanity that makes you realize that

00:36:51.179 --> 00:36:53.339
that's what i feel right Right.

00:36:53.639 --> 00:36:59.239
So how do you deal with dissent in that process then?

00:36:59.399 --> 00:37:03.679
So for instance, if you break your pinky finger, you might also at some point

00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:07.299
say, or at the moment this happens, you're in pain, like, look, sorry, that's it.

00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:14.039
I'm going home. But so dissent is of course, because people will be exhausted and tired.

00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:16.779
How is dissent now managed?

00:37:18.137 --> 00:37:24.077
We don't push anybody. If they want to leave, we do everything we can to help them.

00:37:24.177 --> 00:37:28.277
It is challenging, some of these things, being in a disaster area.

00:37:28.797 --> 00:37:41.297
In fact, I was sort of recalled from the ground zero in 2011 in the Japanese triple disaster.

00:37:41.297 --> 00:37:47.257
Disaster um i i went there with the idea that i i wanted to stay there a long

00:37:47.257 --> 00:37:53.217
time and and help but i was the only person that had to go back because i had had a surgery earlier,

00:37:53.877 --> 00:37:58.837
and the board of directors said there's too much radiation so you have to come

00:37:58.837 --> 00:38:03.097
back i was a little sad about that but i felt they have my best interest in

00:38:03.097 --> 00:38:07.377
mind so a little bit of dissent in my mind but all these things whether you're

00:38:07.377 --> 00:38:11.157
the one had that is forced to go home or you're the The one who wants to go home,

00:38:11.357 --> 00:38:15.397
we have to be practical and rational.

00:38:15.717 --> 00:38:22.117
Right. So, Shanta, we looked now at your experience with also very concrete

00:38:22.117 --> 00:38:23.417
projects. We have examples.

00:38:23.897 --> 00:38:30.017
Yeah. In your own career, you also went to offers a training school,

00:38:30.017 --> 00:38:38.077
you said earlier, where they will train you in a very specific way to manage human collaboration.

00:38:38.077 --> 00:38:42.557
Operation, which might be actually rather different in how you have been doing it.

00:38:43.037 --> 00:38:45.357
So could you maybe highlight a little bit?

00:38:46.315 --> 00:38:49.575
The difference yeah i i think i i didn't

00:38:49.575 --> 00:38:55.415
uh explain it properly perhaps but i was accepted but i ended up taking that

00:38:55.415 --> 00:39:00.255
job in japan and okay so you didn't really participate in that you know i've

00:39:00.255 --> 00:39:07.015
trained myself for it but i ended up getting going to boot camp in an ashram okay exactly,

00:39:07.635 --> 00:39:10.395
all right so but actually that was a really

00:39:10.395 --> 00:39:13.555
good lesson too by the way okay why was

00:39:13.555 --> 00:39:17.435
that a good lesson um because actually there

00:39:17.435 --> 00:39:22.715
was a lot of work i mean those days we didn't hire any any uh workers to do

00:39:22.715 --> 00:39:27.675
the work so we were the ones doing the concrete and carrying everything and

00:39:27.675 --> 00:39:29.115
the girls would also do it too

00:39:29.115 --> 00:39:35.175
you know so so girls here means adult women you know not not child labor,

00:39:35.995 --> 00:39:43.015
i don't understand right so so and and the idea is that you know we have to be flexible

00:39:43.215 --> 00:39:47.135
because the work is very strenuous and

00:39:47.135 --> 00:39:49.935
you if somebody needs to take a break

00:39:49.935 --> 00:39:52.935
you just let them because that's the that's the

00:39:52.935 --> 00:39:57.395
way it is and also sometimes the work changes we'll take a big pile of wood

00:39:57.395 --> 00:40:00.955
and move it somewhere and then you realize that no it's not supposed to be there

00:40:00.955 --> 00:40:05.815
where it's supposed to be somewhere else and and really it's um it's all about

00:40:05.815 --> 00:40:10.015
flexibility here because things change in a setting like this. Right.

00:40:10.995 --> 00:40:17.215
So to make it now a transition, so you did convert, right?

00:40:17.295 --> 00:40:20.315
And you joined an ashram and you follow Amma.

00:40:20.715 --> 00:40:28.235
And in some sense, you could look at this dedication now to also a religious

00:40:28.235 --> 00:40:33.095
framework as also a way to structure human collaboration, right?

00:40:33.095 --> 00:40:39.375
But if you want, there are principles also in this religious commitment that

00:40:39.375 --> 00:40:42.415
structure the way in which people can collaborate.

00:40:43.326 --> 00:40:47.386
So could you elaborate on that a bit? Very good point.

00:40:47.566 --> 00:40:52.966
Very good point. Yeah, I mean, if it were not for that background,

00:40:53.186 --> 00:40:56.086
that foundation that we are working upon,

00:40:56.506 --> 00:41:05.006
a lot of other things could be going on that would not necessarily be condemned in another setting.

00:41:05.846 --> 00:41:11.246
So, I mean, it is foregone conclusion that we have to value certain things.

00:41:11.246 --> 00:41:15.586
And and if if someone just um completely

00:41:15.586 --> 00:41:21.286
ignores some of those values then it's pretty much you know clear that he's

00:41:21.286 --> 00:41:25.466
in the wrong and then we can call him on it um so it would be things like patience

00:41:25.466 --> 00:41:32.246
humility forgiveness i mean typical uh spiritual qualities that all the faiths would

00:41:32.326 --> 00:41:36.326
probably would respect and and

00:41:36.326 --> 00:41:40.506
then also compassion and you

00:41:40.506 --> 00:41:43.506
know I think these qualities and many

00:41:43.506 --> 00:41:47.666
others also are willing to to adjust to

00:41:47.666 --> 00:41:51.486
other people when they when needed this is like

00:41:51.486 --> 00:41:55.046
the I guess you would call the lubrication for

00:41:55.046 --> 00:42:02.046
that machine of collaboration in in this setting And I find that really the

00:42:02.046 --> 00:42:10.246
concrete results are a tangible edifice that is built on the foundation of all

00:42:10.246 --> 00:42:12.506
these values, the intangibles.

00:42:13.666 --> 00:42:19.226
And without that foundation of the intangibles, I don't see how I could have

00:42:19.226 --> 00:42:20.846
done any of these things. Mm-hmm.

00:42:22.090 --> 00:42:27.790
I mean, I didn't do it. Everybody else did it. But could we elaborate this a

00:42:27.790 --> 00:42:29.310
little bit? Because now we have the intangibles.

00:42:29.630 --> 00:42:34.730
The intangibles are values that are also grounded in a religious framework.

00:42:35.350 --> 00:42:41.090
Is there some structure to that? Because you listed a few, like generosity, humility, and so on.

00:42:41.430 --> 00:42:46.910
But is there some structure to that? Is there, let's say, an absolute ground

00:42:46.910 --> 00:42:51.630
zero value that it has to start with, and you build the others on top of that,

00:42:51.750 --> 00:42:53.790
for instance. Do you see some structure to that?

00:42:54.190 --> 00:42:57.930
Yeah, it would have to be selflessness, I would say.

00:42:58.290 --> 00:43:03.730
And that comes from a deeper quality or state, which would be love,

00:43:03.870 --> 00:43:09.810
unconditional love, which everybody wants, but typically they don't want to give it to people.

00:43:10.470 --> 00:43:19.410
So it's a challenge to evoke that emotion or that flow within ourselves so that we can be selfless.

00:43:19.410 --> 00:43:22.170
It doesn't come selflessness doesn't just come by

00:43:22.170 --> 00:43:29.950
chance right so that is probably the core principle in my mind and so the core

00:43:29.950 --> 00:43:36.990
principle is love and from love comes selflessness yeah right but now these

00:43:36.990 --> 00:43:42.130
other values um like you mentioned generosity humility how do you related,

00:43:42.650 --> 00:43:45.710
to that very good question

00:43:45.710 --> 00:43:50.210
okay so um the to

00:43:50.210 --> 00:43:54.050
back up a little bit in the indian philosophy the

00:43:54.050 --> 00:43:58.490
the core principle is really um non-duality so

00:43:58.490 --> 00:44:01.450
it means that there's only one in this

00:44:01.450 --> 00:44:08.150
it sounds kind of you know um pokey you know but the idea is that if there is

00:44:08.150 --> 00:44:12.790
a divine power somewhere That means it's everywhere and it's we are that also

00:44:12.790 --> 00:44:17.970
that's the concept So so that means that if you if there's no duality then that

00:44:17.970 --> 00:44:21.310
that means you just like you Value your own life.

00:44:21.410 --> 00:44:25.110
You should value everybody else's life exactly the same way because of that

00:44:25.110 --> 00:44:30.670
oneness So from that is where that that real love comes because it's not a dualistic

00:44:30.670 --> 00:44:37.110
love It's it's a monistic one and and from that the idea is that compassion arises.

00:44:38.096 --> 00:44:41.976
Because just like you, if you cut your finger, you're going to treat that,

00:44:42.056 --> 00:44:44.336
whether it's the left hand or the right hand.

00:44:44.476 --> 00:44:48.256
So like that, whether it's your pain or somebody else's pain,

00:44:48.356 --> 00:44:50.736
you treat it the same way. That would be the compassion.

00:44:51.136 --> 00:44:55.876
And so from compassion, you find this selflessness.

00:44:56.556 --> 00:45:00.876
Because like the mother has compassion for the baby, the baby needs a lot of

00:45:00.876 --> 00:45:03.736
attention or has to stay up all night. The mother will stay up all night.

00:45:04.356 --> 00:45:07.456
That's how the selflessness comes from compassion.

00:45:08.096 --> 00:45:12.036
And then from selflessness really comes all the other qualities,

00:45:12.216 --> 00:45:15.736
I would say. Right. You know, humility, patience, and so on.

00:45:16.256 --> 00:45:21.216
Now, but so that raises an interesting question for the discussion on collaboration, right?

00:45:21.276 --> 00:45:24.916
Because now in collaboration, we have to set goals.

00:45:25.936 --> 00:45:34.016
Sure. Now ego comes in because you could argue that goals are on many occasions

00:45:34.016 --> 00:45:35.756
articulated through ego.

00:45:35.756 --> 00:45:38.396
Ego because some ego is going

00:45:38.396 --> 00:45:41.756
to say this has to happen yeah yeah so

00:45:41.756 --> 00:45:44.916
so if you dial down ego and we

00:45:44.916 --> 00:45:48.496
go to love and and selflessness we might

00:45:48.496 --> 00:45:54.036
rise in the goals that collaboration can achieve so how do you see that that

00:45:54.036 --> 00:46:01.736
potential contradiction it's uh where is the contradiction again please I was

00:46:01.736 --> 00:46:05.736
thinking you really hit the nail on the head,

00:46:05.856 --> 00:46:08.636
but then I didn't get the... But that's why I said potential.

00:46:09.516 --> 00:46:17.136
Potential. The point is the ego might shape goals.

00:46:18.176 --> 00:46:21.516
It's ego that says we need a village here and not there.

00:46:21.856 --> 00:46:25.556
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? But then to actually make that happen,

00:46:25.576 --> 00:46:27.836
we need collaboration. Now we've got to dial down ego.

00:46:28.536 --> 00:46:31.596
Right. I, well, I think.

00:46:32.749 --> 00:46:35.549
One of the ways is to not participate in it.

00:46:35.769 --> 00:46:40.089
You know, if someone else is having that problem, then, you know,

00:46:40.129 --> 00:46:45.969
Amma has given an example like we can flow like water instead of trying to,

00:46:46.009 --> 00:46:47.389
you know, if there's an obstacle,

00:46:47.609 --> 00:46:51.309
you don't have to try to break it and destroy it. You just flow around it.

00:46:51.489 --> 00:46:57.909
I'll give you an example. Again, I have so many stories from the housing project.

00:46:57.909 --> 00:47:01.129
We were unloading bricks from a truck,

00:47:01.289 --> 00:47:06.049
a lorry, and Kerala is the state where we've done a lot of it,

00:47:06.089 --> 00:47:15.209
and Kerala is a mostly communistic government,

00:47:15.329 --> 00:47:17.689
and the Communist Party,

00:47:17.829 --> 00:47:20.609
I mean, I don't know a whole lot about communism.

00:47:20.849 --> 00:47:23.569
But it doesn't seem to be like the original.

00:47:23.569 --> 00:47:26.929
It's just a lot of striking and and you

00:47:26.929 --> 00:47:30.529
know they they will try to uh stop traffic

00:47:30.529 --> 00:47:34.149
and all that so what they did the local union

00:47:34.149 --> 00:47:36.969
came and told us that we have to pay

00:47:36.969 --> 00:47:40.229
them even though we're unloading the

00:47:40.229 --> 00:47:43.289
the bricks ourselves they said you're taking our

00:47:43.289 --> 00:47:47.269
money so you have to pay us for it and uh

00:47:47.269 --> 00:47:50.009
and and then we just didn't listen to them

00:47:50.009 --> 00:47:52.849
we just kept unloading and but we didn't fight with them either

00:47:52.849 --> 00:47:55.809
and we just they they had their goals

00:47:55.809 --> 00:47:58.809
we had our goals and uh we didn't

00:47:58.809 --> 00:48:01.929
ask them to help us or anything but we kind of

00:48:01.929 --> 00:48:07.249
flowed around that issue so that we didn't have any conflict it's not within

00:48:07.249 --> 00:48:12.329
the same collaboration but if there are people who are having a temper tantrum

00:48:12.329 --> 00:48:16.709
or something during a project there's always a way to flow around that and not

00:48:16.709 --> 00:48:21.509
try to um scold them or control them,

00:48:21.689 --> 00:48:25.789
or criticize them.

00:48:25.909 --> 00:48:28.509
Just let them calm down on their own.

00:48:29.049 --> 00:48:32.329
Go ahead. Sorry, I interrupted you.

00:48:32.649 --> 00:48:37.269
No, I was saying we try not to react to that. It's a dead end.

00:48:37.449 --> 00:48:40.069
The ego level is a dead end for all of us.

00:48:41.549 --> 00:48:49.049
What I'm looking for here is what are the costs to the approach you take.

00:48:49.049 --> 00:48:54.389
Because in some sense, also the examples you give, in some sense,

00:48:54.389 --> 00:48:57.089
the collaborative process is a reactive one.

00:48:57.369 --> 00:49:01.009
There's a disaster somewhere. There's someone who doesn't have a house.

00:49:01.209 --> 00:49:05.889
So the world is dictating the goals to you.

00:49:06.509 --> 00:49:11.509
And now you respond based on love and compassion. Yeah.

00:49:12.089 --> 00:49:17.789
But I could say, but as humans, as humankind, we also need to set proactive

00:49:17.789 --> 00:49:23.149
goals that are purely future-oriented, where we say, look, we're going to have ecological collapse.

00:49:23.629 --> 00:49:27.629
And if we don't take measures now, even though that's also a reactive one,

00:49:28.269 --> 00:49:32.389
but the more we project ourselves in the future, the more we have to become proactive.

00:49:33.249 --> 00:49:37.829
And then maybe to flow around the problems is limiting.

00:49:38.829 --> 00:49:41.909
I think that maybe it's a slight clarification we can do here.

00:49:42.029 --> 00:49:45.749
I think the goal doesn't necessarily come from, which is I kind of typed out

00:49:45.749 --> 00:49:48.509
in the chat, the goal probably doesn't necessarily come from ego,

00:49:48.609 --> 00:49:52.789
but the drive to achieve a goal probably comes,

00:49:52.929 --> 00:49:56.949
you have to have some ego to actually to work towards a goal.

00:49:57.069 --> 00:49:58.509
A goal can come from compassion.

00:49:59.189 --> 00:50:02.929
Somebody is homeless, they need a home. So then the goal is to build a home for a person.

00:50:02.989 --> 00:50:05.929
There's no ego necessarily in the goal. but for example

00:50:05.929 --> 00:50:08.889
for you to be involved in that probably does have

00:50:08.889 --> 00:50:11.549
some levels of ego i mean this is what

00:50:11.549 --> 00:50:16.009
i would think i don't know i know but the funny the point is i'm looking for

00:50:16.009 --> 00:50:22.169
the limitations of the definitions that we have on the table right and and one

00:50:22.169 --> 00:50:27.249
potential limitation i see here is that goals are in some sense given to you

00:50:27.249 --> 00:50:29.209
by how the world is is evolving.

00:50:30.369 --> 00:50:36.209
So then the question would be, is there really no role for ego in this whole process?

00:50:36.429 --> 00:50:39.629
And if there is a role for ego, how is that managed?

00:50:40.528 --> 00:50:47.368
So I'm not excluding the possibility that goals can be set in different ways

00:50:47.368 --> 00:50:49.528
or that actually has no role.

00:50:49.768 --> 00:50:55.008
But I want to really try to be as precise about it as we can be.

00:50:55.328 --> 00:51:01.768
Like if we talk about proactive goal setting, can the collective do that purely

00:51:01.768 --> 00:51:03.808
driven by selflessness?

00:51:03.808 --> 00:51:10.908
Yes, I can say, if it's okay, were you going to say something more, Dr. Bhavani?

00:51:11.368 --> 00:51:20.928
No? Okay. So I can give you a brief failure story and an up and coming project.

00:51:20.928 --> 00:51:24.348
Project so uh just before corona

00:51:24.348 --> 00:51:28.208
or uh covid struck i was

00:51:28.208 --> 00:51:31.548
trying to rally up a lot of support for us

00:51:31.548 --> 00:51:35.548
to grow our own vegetables in chicago ashram

00:51:35.548 --> 00:51:40.628
ashram or the center there and uh because we have a lot of land and and and

00:51:40.628 --> 00:51:45.648
ama has told us to grow our own food we have to be self-sufficient so i i was

00:51:45.648 --> 00:51:50.088
getting everybody out there and i was putting on my boots and you know work

00:51:50.088 --> 00:51:52.888
clothes and going out there and trying to set an example.

00:51:53.568 --> 00:51:58.008
In retrospect, I think there was some ego of the leader role,

00:51:58.208 --> 00:52:01.148
you know, the white knight who comes in and saves the day, you know,

00:52:01.228 --> 00:52:07.008
which that's the, I don't like that attitude, but sometimes it may creep in every once in a while.

00:52:07.568 --> 00:52:10.288
And at that time, we were all fired up.

00:52:10.348 --> 00:52:15.448
But the problem was, you know, at that time, I could have given a little more

00:52:15.448 --> 00:52:19.108
consideration, I would say, to the age of all the people and myself.

00:52:19.108 --> 00:52:26.628
And I actually hurt my knee because I overexerted in the process of trying to

00:52:26.628 --> 00:52:29.148
get everybody motivated.

00:52:30.768 --> 00:52:35.028
And it was a little too much heavy on the leadership side.

00:52:35.148 --> 00:52:41.908
Could have been not so bold and pushy. So that one we lost.

00:52:44.984 --> 00:52:48.484
Couldn't harvest everything that we had put in the ground it's very challenging,

00:52:49.464 --> 00:52:56.344
but the next project that we have coming up now is extremely full of a lot of foresight which is,

00:52:57.064 --> 00:53:01.124
a project uh about um

00:53:01.124 --> 00:53:10.404
research scientific research about the efficacy of a lot of um herbs which we've

00:53:10.404 --> 00:53:17.964
been growing there different Western Indian Chinese etc and use those,

00:53:18.784 --> 00:53:25.124
scientific findings to improve those and we're going to grow them all there

00:53:25.124 --> 00:53:31.084
and then they're going to be made into two medicines and then they will also be

00:53:31.264 --> 00:53:35.764
applied to wellness on site and

00:53:35.764 --> 00:53:45.024
also getting those approved by the FDA in America or something like that.

00:53:45.204 --> 00:53:50.864
So this is a very farsighted vision that has come up in recent days.

00:53:51.084 --> 00:53:57.864
And we're very happy that we are on that path because it is not like a reactive

00:53:57.864 --> 00:54:05.344
one so much. It's an example of a rather novel and a forward-looking collaboration.

00:54:06.064 --> 00:54:06.884
Right.

00:54:08.264 --> 00:54:09.384
Okay, so...

00:54:10.685 --> 00:54:18.185
If you now look at the domain of collaboration and the way you shape it within

00:54:18.185 --> 00:54:22.985
the context of the processes where you're active, what do you see as the most

00:54:22.985 --> 00:54:24.905
critical challenges right now?

00:54:26.605 --> 00:54:34.465
Yeah, I was thinking about that earlier because the challenges tend to be,

00:54:34.605 --> 00:54:39.965
one would be like a myopic approach.

00:54:40.765 --> 00:54:46.745
You know, looking at things from a short-term standpoint,

00:54:47.165 --> 00:54:56.485
not really looking like you're saying for the future and just running the collaboration

00:54:56.485 --> 00:54:59.865
in a way that produces some short-term success.

00:54:59.965 --> 00:55:07.305
But in the long term, it's going to affect the collaborators and the growth

00:55:07.305 --> 00:55:12.825
of that whole process. So that was an example of it.

00:55:12.845 --> 00:55:16.605
Then in that year when we had to take the Japanese students out in the middle

00:55:16.605 --> 00:55:19.125
of the night, that was definitely a myopic approach.

00:55:19.505 --> 00:55:28.005
That's one example. Another thing is, with youth, an example from youth activities,

00:55:28.245 --> 00:55:36.545
in one place, I was with the coordinators for the youth summit that year.

00:55:36.905 --> 00:55:42.125
And it was a bunch of, I mean, I'm middle-aged now, so I'm not criticizing that,

00:55:42.185 --> 00:55:47.005
but it was a bunch of middle-aged leaders imposing their wisdom on the youth.

00:55:48.285 --> 00:55:51.885
And there was no empowerment going on there.

00:55:52.565 --> 00:55:59.785
I feel that disempowerment is a big challenge because if you're top-heavy on

00:55:59.785 --> 00:56:05.925
the leadership, that can really discourage the motivation of the people.

00:56:07.125 --> 00:56:12.185
Other things are, like I said, the white knight approach can be very destructive

00:56:12.185 --> 00:56:14.345
sometimes. It doesn't get people working together.

00:56:15.405 --> 00:56:20.905
The lone wolf approach also, I think, is dangerous too. and.

00:56:23.550 --> 00:56:28.450
Yeah, like holistic approach, I feel is really critical for all these things.

00:56:29.150 --> 00:56:35.770
I'm looking at it for multiple layers of benefit, like kind of like biomimicry,

00:56:35.770 --> 00:56:41.350
you know, approaches, so where we can get multiple results from one action.

00:56:41.350 --> 00:56:49.590
Uh so they so the opposite would be the atomistic approach the non-holistic approach um so,

00:56:50.430 --> 00:56:53.310
yeah i i we had a failure like that

00:56:53.310 --> 00:56:56.130
in japan once a few years ago when i was

00:56:56.130 --> 00:56:59.450
still living there we we wanted to have everybody

00:56:59.450 --> 00:57:03.490
grow a very potent um indian

00:57:03.490 --> 00:57:09.650
sacred herb called tulasi or tulsi and we we got everybody excited about it

00:57:09.650 --> 00:57:13.510
but we didn't really take into account the climate there the climatological

00:57:13.510 --> 00:57:18.090
challenges there and what happened was people who tried to grow them were sad

00:57:18.090 --> 00:57:22.810
when they died in the winter and so it was it was not a very holistic approach,

00:57:23.970 --> 00:57:29.890
right yeah and another one other point that comes to my mind is that you know

00:57:29.890 --> 00:57:33.050
um some people are When they look at the collaborations,

00:57:33.370 --> 00:57:40.750
they analyze micro points too much, and they lose track of the macro vision.

00:57:41.950 --> 00:57:48.770
So the macrocosm is what gives meaning to the microcosm, really, in a way.

00:57:49.190 --> 00:57:55.110
Because if you're forgetting what the macro vision is, then there's no point

00:57:55.110 --> 00:57:57.870
in talking about all the details because you're not going to achieve it.

00:57:57.870 --> 00:58:00.930
Sometimes that happens i find and then some

00:58:00.930 --> 00:58:03.990
people are really nitpicky about little things and they lose track

00:58:03.990 --> 00:58:07.050
of the macro vision right finger

00:58:07.050 --> 00:58:12.010
pointing is another problem that happened at the at the hospital uh site everybody

00:58:12.010 --> 00:58:16.930
was pointing saying it was his fault her fault why everything is delayed instead

00:58:16.930 --> 00:58:24.750
of trying to put together the you know uh what microsoft project the software,

00:58:25.710 --> 00:58:28.490
yeah so i was trying to fill

00:58:28.490 --> 00:58:31.890
in 1500 tasks in that in that

00:58:31.890 --> 00:58:35.370
uh but there's a 1500 bed 1500 tasks

00:58:35.370 --> 00:58:38.330
there and all i got initially was just

00:58:38.330 --> 00:58:41.350
finger pointing and there's there's no of

00:58:41.350 --> 00:58:44.570
these predecessor relationships coming out nobody

00:58:44.570 --> 00:58:47.830
wants to talk about what the option you know the real

00:58:47.830 --> 00:58:54.330
issues are and so that took a long time to you know hack my way through the

00:58:54.330 --> 00:58:59.330
jungle all of that right so these are a few examples in my experience right

00:58:59.330 --> 00:59:05.010
well that that that's a really um good list but with the finger pointing how

00:59:05.010 --> 00:59:06.370
do you overcome finger pointing.

00:59:07.706 --> 00:59:15.606
Um i what i did i mean it was my first time trying to do something like that i said you know,

00:59:16.486 --> 00:59:19.806
that's fine all right he may be completely the

00:59:19.806 --> 00:59:22.826
worst person in the whole world whatever it is you please

00:59:22.826 --> 00:59:26.426
just tell me what you're trying to do if it

00:59:26.426 --> 00:59:29.166
were if it were a perfect world what would you want

00:59:29.166 --> 00:59:31.806
to do and then they start telling me you know because they

00:59:31.806 --> 00:59:34.786
get excited they they kind of regain their vision you

00:59:34.786 --> 00:59:37.826
know when they're focused on somebody else being the

00:59:37.826 --> 00:59:41.286
bad guy they lose track of what their goal is their you

00:59:41.286 --> 00:59:44.126
know their end game so to speak and then they start

00:59:44.126 --> 00:59:48.486
when they can talk about their professional specialty and and share what they

00:59:48.486 --> 00:59:52.426
really want to do then i can note that down and i say how long will that take

00:59:52.426 --> 00:59:56.566
you what has to happen before that and what has to happen before that and then

00:59:56.566 --> 01:00:01.166
i finally got everybody's information and then they thought I thought it was

01:00:01.166 --> 01:00:03.726
going to be ready at the end of the year,

01:00:03.866 --> 01:00:08.646
and I told them, what you're telling me, all the data you gave me is told it's

01:00:08.646 --> 01:00:10.806
going to be not ready until next spring.

01:00:11.226 --> 01:00:14.486
And it wasn't ready until the spring. Right.

01:00:14.906 --> 01:00:20.666
But we calculated it properly because they cooperated or collaborated.

01:00:21.306 --> 01:00:29.866
Yeah. Okay. So now, did we learn anything from the COVID period we're in now?

01:00:30.946 --> 01:00:39.406
Like that collaboration yeah yeah a lot of it um a lot of mistakes of course you know,

01:00:40.466 --> 01:00:43.526
um it's it seems to be arrogance for

01:00:43.526 --> 01:00:46.866
us to understand the mode the modus operandi

01:00:46.866 --> 01:00:50.326
of covid you know it's we

01:00:50.326 --> 01:00:53.066
thought we knew what we were doing and all that was a

01:00:53.066 --> 01:00:56.826
good lesson about human ego and the

01:00:56.826 --> 01:01:00.306
fact that I mean what I learned is some

01:01:00.306 --> 01:01:03.686
of it is metaphysical I guess you could say is that I believe

01:01:03.686 --> 01:01:10.066
it's the total mass of all the coronavirus on the planet is like one gram or

01:01:10.066 --> 01:01:15.866
something supposedly and and it's basically controlling everybody on the planet

01:01:15.866 --> 01:01:23.266
that little one gram of something and it shows how powerful subtle things are you know you could

01:01:23.346 --> 01:01:26.446
take a huge bomb,

01:01:26.566 --> 01:01:28.506
and you still wouldn't stop the whole world.

01:01:28.926 --> 01:01:35.886
But something very subtle can be very powerful. That's one thing about life in general.

01:01:42.644 --> 01:01:43.444
Did we lose him?

01:01:45.644 --> 01:01:49.264
Hopefully he will come back. Yeah.

01:01:49.544 --> 01:01:54.184
But why don't you ask him about this definition of ego from Amo?

01:01:54.624 --> 01:01:58.584
Yeah, no, it actually goes well with his Tulasi story also.

01:01:59.724 --> 01:02:04.084
Yeah, I could. I also didn't know how much time we have.

01:02:05.344 --> 01:02:12.584
Yeah, that's up to Shanta, right? But it looks like he's frozen in time now. So we have forever.

01:02:17.864 --> 01:02:23.784
It's interesting what he was talking about in terms of, let me text him on WhatsApp.

01:02:24.004 --> 01:02:27.464
What he was talking about in terms of the thing about putting that,

01:02:27.504 --> 01:02:31.784
it's like reorientation towards your goal that help people come back.

01:02:31.924 --> 01:02:35.304
So this keeps on coming up. Yeah.

01:02:35.844 --> 01:02:38.764
Does collaboration never happen without a goal?

01:02:39.964 --> 01:02:45.064
Paul? I think it's absolutely at the heart of it. There must be a common goal.

01:02:45.984 --> 01:02:48.584
Right. It cannot happen without it, right? I'm just wondering,

01:02:48.644 --> 01:02:50.144
have you ever come across even one?

01:02:52.724 --> 01:02:57.664
He just texted me. One example that it happens without a goal?

01:02:58.324 --> 01:03:00.904
No, I don't think we would speak of collaboration in that case.

01:03:01.484 --> 01:03:02.544
Then it can be cooperative.

01:03:04.564 --> 01:03:07.284
He's trying to join Mac again. Maybe you have to let him in?

01:03:08.184 --> 01:03:12.064
Yeah, but I don't see him yet. I'm ready to click the button,

01:03:12.184 --> 01:03:13.504
but he has to appear first.

01:03:19.964 --> 01:03:24.644
I'm asking to restart soon. No problem.

01:03:31.164 --> 01:03:40.624
How much of collaboration also depends on respect and just making small changes

01:03:40.624 --> 01:03:46.124
to what your worldview is and somebody else's worldview.

01:03:46.464 --> 01:03:50.964
If you are trying to accomplish something as opposed to somebody else that you're

01:03:50.964 --> 01:03:51.924
trying to bring on board.

01:03:52.984 --> 01:03:58.624
I think that's a very essential aspect of actually converging, right? Oh, sorry.

01:03:59.524 --> 01:04:01.464
Yeah, Shanta, I'm sorry.

01:04:02.564 --> 01:04:05.524
My fault, I think. but but i understand

01:04:05.524 --> 01:04:08.304
you you try to give us a signal like okay this has

01:04:08.304 --> 01:04:12.164
been enough so no no i can

01:04:12.164 --> 01:04:16.904
talk about this all night don't worry okay great so now look we we will not

01:04:16.904 --> 01:04:26.984
we will not hold you up uh much longer but um so then a more sort of open question

01:04:26.984 --> 01:04:29.884
here is also do you believe humans,

01:04:30.344 --> 01:04:35.984
humanity on this planet will ever be able to establish sustainable collaboration.

01:04:37.200 --> 01:04:44.080
Music.

01:04:45.984 --> 01:04:50.904
I'm a bit of an oddball on that, I think. If I speak my mind freely,

01:04:51.144 --> 01:05:03.124
I feel that if we want nature to collaborate with us, we have to collaborate with her.

01:05:03.724 --> 01:05:11.584
And and and basically it seems to me that what's happening now in the world is uh a.

01:05:13.184 --> 01:05:16.564
Sort of a reaction from nature teaching us how

01:05:16.564 --> 01:05:21.404
to to rectify our course to you know because we're kind of we're not on a wonderful

01:05:21.404 --> 01:05:26.104
course at this point doesn't seem like a fold over we can do it we could be

01:05:26.104 --> 01:05:31.284
doing a lot better um and so mother nature seems to be leading us in that way

01:05:31.284 --> 01:05:33.964
so if If we don't figure it out ourselves,

01:05:34.364 --> 01:05:41.264
I have confidence that Mother Nature, being our mother, will guide us the right

01:05:41.264 --> 01:05:46.524
way and show us where we really should be focusing.

01:05:46.524 --> 01:05:49.424
Like how people felt early on

01:05:49.424 --> 01:05:52.644
in the in the now if everybody's kind of tired but

01:05:52.644 --> 01:05:56.144
where they learned a lot early on like how how you

01:05:56.144 --> 01:05:59.464
can have a good life and a and a fulfilled life

01:05:59.464 --> 01:06:02.344
and a and you can have contentment even amidst this

01:06:02.344 --> 01:06:05.844
if you just change your perception so so

01:06:05.844 --> 01:06:09.184
i think we're going to be if we don't

01:06:09.184 --> 01:06:13.144
create sustainable or

01:06:13.144 --> 01:06:21.624
we if we don't achieve sustainable collaboration now we can expect more lessons

01:06:21.624 --> 01:06:29.384
life lessons from from mother nature and and as the results of our own doings

01:06:29.384 --> 01:06:32.864
as well so when we start learning from those experiences,

01:06:33.244 --> 01:06:37.144
I think we'll be on the way to a sustainable collaboration.

01:06:38.224 --> 01:06:42.184
But are you optimistic that we will be able to learn from those lessons?

01:06:43.563 --> 01:06:48.683
Yes, because I mean, I see nature as my mother.

01:06:48.943 --> 01:06:54.883
So I think the mother knows what the child needs and the mother will keep giving

01:06:54.883 --> 01:06:57.823
those lessons until the child really gets it.

01:06:58.903 --> 01:07:06.523
She's very patient also. But in your answer, a lot of suffering also is implied then.

01:07:07.363 --> 01:07:12.483
It could be. It's up to us how much suffering has to be experienced.

01:07:13.563 --> 01:07:14.683
Mm-hmm, yeah.

01:07:16.583 --> 01:07:20.583
So, Bhavani, do you have another question or observation to share?

01:07:20.683 --> 01:07:22.563
Because then I will move to our last question.

01:07:23.123 --> 01:07:25.203
No, it's okay. Go ahead. Are you sure?

01:07:26.443 --> 01:07:32.703
Yeah, it's okay. Okay. So, Shantan, but if you could change one thing in humans,

01:07:33.803 --> 01:07:39.723
to make them better collaborators and also, in some sense, save their own existence

01:07:39.723 --> 01:07:41.683
on this planet and save the planet,

01:07:43.003 --> 01:07:45.003
what's the one thing you would change um.

01:07:55.302 --> 01:08:02.322
In one of the scriptures of India, there is a saying that by nature,

01:08:02.382 --> 01:08:07.802
the mind is facing outwards.

01:08:08.602 --> 01:08:15.202
I mean, you could probably call it extrovert. Is that what we say in English?

01:08:15.202 --> 01:08:18.282
Um i i don't

01:08:18.282 --> 01:08:21.202
propose to rewrite the whole you know

01:08:21.202 --> 01:08:25.382
story about man but and humans but

01:08:25.382 --> 01:08:28.302
um i think it would

01:08:28.302 --> 01:08:36.242
be if we want to have a sustainable collaboration and if we want to have a better

01:08:36.242 --> 01:08:41.622
world then a little more self-reflection built into the human being would go

01:08:41.622 --> 01:08:48.042
a long ways Because I think a lot of our failures come from the lack of self-reflection. Right.

01:08:48.642 --> 01:08:53.782
Swami Shantan Nandanda Puri, thank you very much for this conversation.

01:08:54.242 --> 01:08:58.322
Thank you so much for being patient with me with all my wild ideas.

01:08:59.382 --> 01:09:07.722
No, but what's really interesting and puzzles me tremendously is this juxtaposition

01:09:07.722 --> 01:09:09.962
of the tangibles and the intangibles, right?

01:09:09.962 --> 01:09:12.962
Because it also means, in some sense, in your model of collaboration,

01:09:13.382 --> 01:09:18.902
you really critically built on the ability of the mind, this extrovert mind,

01:09:19.182 --> 01:09:23.462
to impose an interpretation on reality.

01:09:24.322 --> 01:09:29.782
To give meaning and value to the tangibles. That building a house actually stands

01:09:29.782 --> 01:09:31.782
for something much more profound.

01:09:33.062 --> 01:09:39.662
So where does that ability come from? Is that learned or is that just given?

01:09:39.962 --> 01:09:43.742
Also the idea of the one, right? To identify with the one, which goes through

01:09:43.742 --> 01:09:49.002
the history of ideas from the old traditions till now. Yeah.

01:09:49.182 --> 01:09:50.342
Where is this coming from?

01:09:51.819 --> 01:09:57.779
I think it is innate. I mean, you know, that's my field of life.

01:09:57.939 --> 01:10:00.979
I'm in that already, so it's not fair to say that.

01:10:01.159 --> 01:10:06.259
But my experience also confirms it in many ways.

01:10:06.639 --> 01:10:11.019
I mean, it's really, I don't know how to explain it.

01:10:11.079 --> 01:10:14.299
It's beyond words when you're finished with

01:10:14.299 --> 01:10:17.339
a project like that and you've got the person

01:10:17.339 --> 01:10:20.359
who flew thousands of miles just to

01:10:20.359 --> 01:10:23.539
do something that was very difficult to help somebody and then

01:10:23.539 --> 01:10:26.679
you know when they're saying farewell it the

01:10:26.679 --> 01:10:30.479
the tears are so profound and i

01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:36.559
i can just remember one example that what i couldn't stop crying myself there

01:10:36.559 --> 01:10:40.799
were there was the recipient of the house and there was a japanese girl who

01:10:40.799 --> 01:10:46.839
was uh the the leader of one of the groups and she was representing her group saying

01:10:46.919 --> 01:10:49.879
farewell they sang a japanese song to the

01:10:49.879 --> 01:10:53.099
to that people like a very sort of sad song

01:10:53.099 --> 01:10:55.899
like saying goodbye um it's a traditional japanese

01:10:55.899 --> 01:10:58.999
song and and then just hearing the

01:10:58.999 --> 01:11:03.899
the the tune and the lyrics even though they couldn't understand what they meant

01:11:03.899 --> 01:11:09.099
the woman started crying something touched her and the japanese woman who was

01:11:09.099 --> 01:11:13.799
standing in front of her she took um that woman's They both had like a towel

01:11:13.799 --> 01:11:16.719
around their neck, like you do in hot places when you're working.

01:11:17.139 --> 01:11:21.279
And she took that woman's towel and she started wiping her eyes.

01:11:21.839 --> 01:11:23.599
They're wiping the tears from her eyes.

01:11:24.407 --> 01:11:30.027
And when she started doing that, the woman who was wiping her tears started crying.

01:11:30.687 --> 01:11:34.007
And then the woman who was crying took her towel and wiped her tears.

01:11:34.747 --> 01:11:37.627
And then I started crying, but nobody wiped my tears.

01:11:39.487 --> 01:11:45.687
But I mean, I'll never forget that. Every time I remember it, I just get that emotion.

01:11:46.107 --> 01:11:50.107
And there's no reason why I should. It's just part of our humanity.

01:11:50.987 --> 01:11:58.607
And the feeling of and there was another guy on that same uh year he was a karate master.

01:11:59.607 --> 01:12:02.527
Really the tough real tough guy you know and he

01:12:02.527 --> 01:12:06.267
was kind of showing off his strength and everything and i would i was looking

01:12:06.267 --> 01:12:10.347
at him every day when i would go to his site and i was like when is this guy

01:12:10.347 --> 01:12:16.327
going to just kind of be a real human being you know and it was the last day

01:12:16.327 --> 01:12:21.987
his house was uh it was a widow named Lakshmi.

01:12:22.127 --> 01:12:24.867
She was maybe almost 70.

01:12:25.287 --> 01:12:28.927
And her house, if you could call it that, if you just were to tap it,

01:12:28.967 --> 01:12:32.367
it would fall over. I can show you a photo. It's really sad.

01:12:32.847 --> 01:12:38.467
And then somehow he got so attached to this woman because every time they would

01:12:38.467 --> 01:12:41.447
come in the morning, she didn't have anything to offer them,

01:12:41.487 --> 01:12:45.047
but she would run around, well, as much as a 70-year-old lady can.

01:12:45.267 --> 01:12:51.787
She was scurrying around the neighborhood to gather water, a little bit of coffee

01:12:51.787 --> 01:12:56.407
grounds and sugar so she could serve them some, what we call,

01:12:56.587 --> 01:12:59.667
well, in English would be black coffee.

01:13:00.327 --> 01:13:04.947
She would make that for them and give it to them. And they knew that she didn't

01:13:04.947 --> 01:13:08.287
have anything, but she was going around and getting it from everybody every day.

01:13:08.807 --> 01:13:13.027
And so he got so attached to her when we were saying goodbye,

01:13:13.187 --> 01:13:15.807
he just completely collapsed.

01:13:16.587 --> 01:13:20.527
And he was whimpering like a dog, you know, like a little baby.

01:13:21.661 --> 01:13:27.061
And his friends had to pick him up. He was so emotional.

01:13:28.421 --> 01:13:35.541
And so if someone like that can experience those feelings of the heart, I think anybody can.

01:13:37.061 --> 01:13:46.961
Yeah, but these are really meaningful examples because it means that the wish of humans, the drive,

01:13:47.221 --> 01:13:50.761
the unconscious drive to bond with other humans, yeah

01:13:50.761 --> 01:13:53.701
it's also yes love this love dimension you meant

01:13:53.701 --> 01:13:56.561
you you mentioned earlier is really then

01:13:56.561 --> 01:14:00.541
the foundation that we also collaborate and

01:14:00.541 --> 01:14:04.301
accept each other's idiosyncrasies yeah

01:14:04.301 --> 01:14:10.221
there's no other way i mean the best example that that we can really get is

01:14:10.221 --> 01:14:16.101
that of a mother and a child because the baby is inside of her you know it is

01:14:16.101 --> 01:14:21.221
oneness really um but then Then somehow duality takes place.

01:14:21.241 --> 01:14:24.681
The baby comes out and then it's duality. But still for the mother,

01:14:24.761 --> 01:14:26.161
it's still part of her emotionally.

01:14:26.821 --> 01:14:33.121
So if we could all feel that way about everybody, think how different the world would be.

01:14:33.921 --> 01:14:39.001
But are you implying that if you want cultural development and economic development

01:14:39.001 --> 01:14:40.641
is sort of pulling us away from.

01:14:41.746 --> 01:14:48.986
From this intrinsic, more open-minded, love-oriented, selfless, collaborative state?

01:14:49.346 --> 01:14:52.126
I don't think it necessarily has to be that way.

01:14:52.226 --> 01:14:56.786
I don't propose to be a historian,

01:14:57.106 --> 01:15:07.826
but there are traditions and there are all these historical accounts of better times in old days.

01:15:07.826 --> 01:15:13.626
I like to feel that human beings are a little more humane in the old ancient

01:15:13.626 --> 01:15:17.466
times, not like 500 years, like thousands of years ago.

01:15:17.806 --> 01:15:24.906
And I think every country has their version of that sort of the golden years of that country.

01:15:25.166 --> 01:15:34.646
And I think that in those days, even though the technology was not the same

01:15:34.646 --> 01:15:37.586
that we had, they had their own version of that.

01:15:37.826 --> 01:15:41.746
And they were growing, and they were prospering, and they weren't hurting other people.

01:15:42.326 --> 01:15:45.906
Of course, it changed at one point, and it became darker at times.

01:15:46.306 --> 01:15:49.986
But I still believe that that is possible.

01:15:50.126 --> 01:15:56.126
It is possible to advance as a country, as a society, and as a people without

01:15:56.126 --> 01:15:58.146
the negative side effects.

01:15:58.466 --> 01:16:04.506
And the key to that is going to be, from an administrative standpoint,

01:16:04.806 --> 01:16:11.226
it would be holism. holism, which is a holistic perspective and then philosophically as well.

01:16:12.846 --> 01:16:16.386
Well, thank you very much. That was extremely insightful.

01:16:17.806 --> 01:16:22.926
Hi, you listened to one of our podcasts in the series on collaboration produced

01:16:22.926 --> 01:16:25.826
by the Ernst Trommel Forum and the Conversion Science Network.

01:16:26.566 --> 01:16:29.506
You can find more episodes on our website.