WEBVTT 00:00:05.080 --> 00:00:09.320 Welcome to the Convergent Science and Ernst Tummund Forum podcast on collaboration. 00:00:10.760 --> 00:00:14.200 I'm Paul Verschoor and together with my colleague Julia Loup, 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:16.320 we speak with Dr. Heidi Kelle. 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:21.880 Heidi is the director of NABIT, the Greenhouse of Context-Informed Research 00:00:21.880 --> 00:00:27.260 and Training for Children in Need at the Paul Bauerwald School of Social Work 00:00:27.260 --> 00:00:30.920 and Social Welfare at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. 00:00:32.300 --> 00:00:37.800 Heidi's research explores culturally specific solutions to universal developmental pathways. 00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:43.660 In this conversation, she elucidates how the concept of collaboration varies 00:00:43.660 --> 00:00:48.640 among cultures and which human traits help people with different worldviews work together. 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:52.960 Welcome, Heidi. Welcome, thank you. 00:00:54.300 --> 00:01:00.260 Heidi, the topic of our conversation is collaboration, which is also what we 00:01:00.260 --> 00:01:02.980 try to understand in our upcoming workshop. 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:08.100 But before we really delve into that, could you tell a little bit more about your background? 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:19.480 Yeah, I'm a psychologist by training, but I think over the years I became very close to, 00:01:20.360 --> 00:01:26.760 evolutionary biology on the one hand and cultural anthropology on the other hand. 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:39.460 And I think my concepts with which I'm working are informed by both of these science fields. 00:01:40.420 --> 00:01:49.120 And I have worked for many years doing longitudinal projects with families and 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:52.880 children in many different parts of the world. 00:01:52.880 --> 00:02:00.900 So the anthropologists usually live with the population they study for an extended 00:02:00.900 --> 00:02:04.440 period of time and they learn the language and things like that. 00:02:04.440 --> 00:02:09.660 I wish I would have done that too, but my approach is different. 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:17.060 So I collaborated closely with local people in diverse places, 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:26.060 in different continents and different environments like urban and rural sites 00:02:26.060 --> 00:02:27.560 in different countries. 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:37.100 And we were able to collect quite a substantial amount of families over the years. 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:43.520 As I said, we followed them longitudinally over the first six years of life 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:53.080 mainly and studied how culture feeds into the evolutionary preparedness of children, 00:02:53.720 --> 00:02:57.900 to become competent adults in their respective environments. 00:02:58.180 --> 00:03:02.160 Okay. So you also are trained as a developmental psychologist? 00:03:03.832 --> 00:03:11.152 See, when I was visiting the university, it was quite different from today. 00:03:11.432 --> 00:03:19.232 Actually, I never had a class or a seminar or anything in developmental psychology. 00:03:19.612 --> 00:03:23.372 So I'm a classical scientific autodidact. 00:03:24.332 --> 00:03:33.492 Okay, great. Great. So now, as a start, what is collaboration and what is it good for? 00:03:34.632 --> 00:03:40.672 Yeah, as with many terms we use in psychology and social sciences in general. 00:03:40.792 --> 00:03:48.172 We need to define the context first for which we want to offer definitions. 00:03:48.172 --> 00:03:58.792 So collaboration certainly is a universal concept that describes how people 00:03:58.792 --> 00:04:06.692 get with each other in particular task-oriented behaviors. 00:04:06.692 --> 00:04:09.952 And collaboration from the 00:04:09.952 --> 00:04:15.592 Western middle class perspective to which we all belong is certainly completely 00:04:15.592 --> 00:04:26.392 different than what rural villages in African or Asian or South American countries 00:04:26.392 --> 00:04:29.012 understand as collaboration. 00:04:29.012 --> 00:04:32.012 These are actually very interesting differences. 00:04:32.072 --> 00:04:37.572 There's very far-reaching implications for the whole socialization process and 00:04:37.572 --> 00:04:39.952 for developmental processes in general. 00:04:39.952 --> 00:04:43.932 So we understand 00:04:43.932 --> 00:04:52.372 that collaboration and cooperation is meant to describe a process where two 00:04:52.372 --> 00:05:00.212 individuals jointly contribute in setting the goals. 00:05:00.212 --> 00:05:08.612 So, it's a perspective that is informed by two individual agents. 00:05:08.752 --> 00:05:17.392 And already this dyadic emphasis is very special for the Western middle class context. 00:05:17.392 --> 00:05:24.692 Whereas in rural environments and also to some extent in urban environments 00:05:24.692 --> 00:05:27.452 in non-Western countries, 00:05:27.792 --> 00:05:39.132 collaboration is a process of jointly contributing to goals that are. 00:05:40.261 --> 00:05:44.881 That are there that are defined by the community and not by the individual agents 00:05:44.881 --> 00:05:50.321 but that does not mean that anything is imposed so it's a mutual understand 00:05:50.321 --> 00:05:56.461 understanding that this is an important process for the benefit of the community 00:05:56.461 --> 00:05:59.861 which is uh i mean the top priority, 00:06:00.981 --> 00:06:06.801 so there the distinction would be between either individuals in an interaction 00:06:06.801 --> 00:06:14.841 defining the goal or individuals adhering to a collectively set goal? 00:06:15.261 --> 00:06:24.561 Yes, yeah. Okay, but for you, is it about setting the goal in the diet or the 00:06:24.561 --> 00:06:28.081 diet can just pursue a common goal? 00:06:28.201 --> 00:06:33.021 So is the definition of the goal by the diet, by the agents involved, 00:06:33.501 --> 00:06:37.741 relevant for that process of collaboration? 00:06:39.281 --> 00:06:46.881 I think in the Western middle-class context, it's each individual of the diet, 00:06:47.001 --> 00:06:50.161 which is crucial for setting the goal. 00:06:50.561 --> 00:06:58.241 There is in the rural farm, I mainly was studying farmers, there may be differences 00:06:58.241 --> 00:07:04.121 with hunter gatherers and other communities. although there are also a lot of commonalities. 00:07:04.681 --> 00:07:09.321 The goal is set by the community and it's also, we. 00:07:11.013 --> 00:07:19.213 At least we believe we have an egalitarian system where everybody has the right to contribute equally. 00:07:19.213 --> 00:07:23.633 Whereas in many traditional farming villages, 00:07:24.173 --> 00:07:32.253 there are hierarchical social structures with clear-cut boundaries in terms 00:07:32.253 --> 00:07:40.493 of social responsibilities that the elders or the title holders in traditional 00:07:40.493 --> 00:07:43.413 societies define the goals. 00:07:43.413 --> 00:07:50.053 And there is not so much intergenerational change as is the case in our societies 00:07:50.053 --> 00:07:54.573 where every generation lives in a completely new environment. 00:07:54.673 --> 00:07:59.953 And even over the lifespan, our environments change tremendously. 00:08:00.253 --> 00:08:07.253 And there is a lot more environmental continuity in these villages I'm thinking of. 00:08:07.253 --> 00:08:16.113 Right. But now in the Western urban context, you might have people who are collaborating 00:08:16.113 --> 00:08:20.673 within larger industrial processes, let's say, right? So they have a job. 00:08:20.793 --> 00:08:27.613 And given that job, they are collaborating in a larger process without necessarily 00:08:27.613 --> 00:08:31.413 setting the goal of the company in which they would work. 00:08:32.313 --> 00:08:37.433 So how is that then different from the collaboration that you're now defining, 00:08:37.553 --> 00:08:42.733 where this common goal setting is a key defining feature? future? 00:08:44.573 --> 00:08:51.813 I'm not so familiar with the functioning of companies and so on. 00:08:51.913 --> 00:09:00.073 But what I understand is that it's important also that the teams who eventually 00:09:00.073 --> 00:09:06.653 should collaborate in order to reach common goals, that they develop a common understanding, 00:09:06.973 --> 00:09:12.853 a corporate identity or whatever that allows them to pursue a common goal. 00:09:13.813 --> 00:09:19.353 I think that there are special arrangements where each individual needs to agree 00:09:19.353 --> 00:09:28.413 to beforehand, whereas in other communities, the common understanding is something that is shared, 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:32.040 shared by the whole community and 00:09:32.040 --> 00:09:35.120 and the roles are defined that each individual 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:41.240 is taking that does not mean that individuals are not able to work independently 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:48.000 we differentiate for instance the concept of autonomy which is important everywhere 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:53.120 in the world into what we call called psychological autonomy, 00:09:53.300 --> 00:09:56.500 that is what we claim as important, 00:09:56.760 --> 00:10:04.580 that our intentions can be pursued and that we have at least the illusion of 00:10:04.580 --> 00:10:11.160 the free will and that we can decide what we are doing and what we are not doing, 00:10:11.380 --> 00:10:15.320 including how we want to live our relationships. 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:23.800 Whereas in this rural farming context, we talk about action economy because 00:10:23.800 --> 00:10:26.900 it's important to act independently. 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:31.580 There is also, I mean, independence is not describing the differences. 00:10:32.300 --> 00:10:40.660 Individuals are acting individually and self-responsible in all the different environments. 00:10:40.660 --> 00:10:52.600 But there is a difference with respect also to the proportion of the mental 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.260 activity that is going individually into that process. 00:10:57.500 --> 00:11:01.540 Heidi, could we take a minute and think about a concrete example, 00:11:01.620 --> 00:11:07.420 say, in the Nassau farming communities of, say, Cameroon? Sure. 00:11:07.854 --> 00:11:15.934 And I'm thinking specifically of how a collaborative project would be engineered 00:11:15.934 --> 00:11:19.054 by, say, you know, a group of children, 00:11:19.234 --> 00:11:22.874 specifically young children. 00:11:23.014 --> 00:11:28.394 And maybe you can give us a little setting where how is this family or this 00:11:28.394 --> 00:11:29.374 group of children, you know, 00:11:29.434 --> 00:11:34.894 do they have, Is it like in a Western setting where you have one mother taking 00:11:34.894 --> 00:11:40.354 care of one child or a grandmother taking or how are the children interacting and how, 00:11:40.454 --> 00:11:45.194 if they have to accomplish a particular goal for the family, who sets the goal? 00:11:45.954 --> 00:11:50.134 How do they divide up that work? Can you just sort of put it into a concrete example for us? 00:11:50.594 --> 00:11:55.574 Yes, sure. I mean, the whole living arrangement is completely different. 00:11:55.574 --> 00:12:00.514 In the Cameroonian villages in the northwest of Cameroon, where we were working, 00:12:00.754 --> 00:12:06.814 and in many other rural traditional villages in different continents. 00:12:07.514 --> 00:12:15.574 There are households, the unit, not the individual biologically defined family. 00:12:15.574 --> 00:12:22.434 The household is composed of multi-generations, and it's not that static unit 00:12:22.434 --> 00:12:29.414 that this and that and that person belong to the household, so there is a constant coming and going. 00:12:29.594 --> 00:12:34.954 So for instance, that made life sometimes miserable for us when we were lacking 00:12:34.954 --> 00:12:39.434 to spotting children whom we wanted to follow, and we didn't find them because 00:12:39.434 --> 00:12:42.374 they lived in a different household. By the way, they... 00:12:42.729 --> 00:12:47.989 They can decide themselves from as early as two years on whether they want to 00:12:47.989 --> 00:12:49.469 change households or not. 00:12:49.569 --> 00:12:58.309 But they can also be referred without prior announcement to change the household, etc. 00:12:58.529 --> 00:13:07.709 So there is a fluid organization and life is in the public. 00:13:07.709 --> 00:13:16.729 So there are no rooms and no closed doors usually, but everybody sees what everybody 00:13:16.729 --> 00:13:19.949 else is doing and there is a shared space. 00:13:20.389 --> 00:13:30.529 So children participate in this daily life of this whole household with observing 00:13:30.529 --> 00:13:34.489 and imitating as major channels of learning. 00:13:34.489 --> 00:13:39.749 They see what others are doing, and they want to do the same, 00:13:39.829 --> 00:13:41.429 and they are allowed to do so. 00:13:41.529 --> 00:13:48.209 They are allowed to, one-year-old children, take all by themselves big machetes 00:13:48.209 --> 00:13:53.469 and operate them without any adult interfering. 00:13:53.469 --> 00:13:58.749 And so they see what the others are doing and they take on the responsibility 00:13:58.749 --> 00:14:06.789 for themselves to contribute to the family by participating in what everybody else is doing. 00:14:06.789 --> 00:14:10.989 And there are interesting descriptions, for instance. 00:14:11.189 --> 00:14:14.829 Also from Maya communities in Mexico, 00:14:15.009 --> 00:14:24.709 where adults never instruct children or tell them or evaluate them what they 00:14:24.709 --> 00:14:28.389 are doing or even praise them and do those kinds of things. 00:14:28.389 --> 00:14:32.049 Things where but they make sure 00:14:32.049 --> 00:14:35.309 that the children can observe what they are doing by 00:14:35.309 --> 00:14:42.109 arranging their sitting position or so they make sure that the child can see 00:14:42.109 --> 00:14:46.989 what they are doing and how they are doing it and the children imitate there's 00:14:46.989 --> 00:14:52.789 a great deal also of independence and as we say autonomy. 00:14:53.369 --> 00:14:58.649 In that the children decide themselves what they are doing and how much they 00:14:58.649 --> 00:15:01.729 are doing, but they are eager to contribute. 00:15:02.229 --> 00:15:10.009 And I think here there are these wonderful studies by the Tomasello group. 00:15:10.933 --> 00:15:18.753 The former Tomasello group showing how two-year-old toddlers are eager to help 00:15:18.753 --> 00:15:25.313 adults who obviously need help in order to do some chores or do something, 00:15:25.533 --> 00:15:27.733 pick up something or whatever. 00:15:27.733 --> 00:15:39.853 But our kind of socialization strategies kind of bring these tendencies to disappear. 00:15:40.093 --> 00:15:49.033 In the end, children have to, I mean, in endless arguments, mothers and fathers 00:15:49.033 --> 00:15:54.533 try to convince children to do this or that, and the children just don't want it. 00:15:54.533 --> 00:15:59.613 And the no of the child is also accepted to some degree. 00:16:00.653 --> 00:16:06.153 Whereas in other communities, children are eager to participate and they take 00:16:06.153 --> 00:16:11.293 brooms and also they operate with the artifact that also adults use. 00:16:11.473 --> 00:16:22.153 So it's not that there are replica made particularly for children as toys and things like that. 00:16:22.153 --> 00:16:34.593 So the child is acquiring a sense of self and also satisfaction and identity 00:16:34.593 --> 00:16:40.033 through being able to participate in the household chores. 00:16:40.353 --> 00:16:46.273 And there is no praise, obviously also not necessary, in order to keep them going. 00:16:46.433 --> 00:16:49.613 They just want to and they are allowed to do so. 00:16:49.613 --> 00:16:54.553 So it's interesting because in our families. 00:16:54.873 --> 00:17:08.253 There is a psychological sameness in the sense that everybody has the same rights. 00:17:08.253 --> 00:17:14.933 Also, children have the same right to discuss things or to say no or to participate 00:17:14.933 --> 00:17:21.913 or not participate, whereas the space is separated. 00:17:21.913 --> 00:17:28.653 So children have their own rooms, their own artifacts that do not share the 00:17:28.653 --> 00:17:32.713 lives of their parents and of adult family members. 00:17:32.713 --> 00:17:36.373 Whereas in these farming villages. 00:17:36.893 --> 00:17:44.153 Everybody shares the same space, but there are the social limits that are also 00:17:44.153 --> 00:17:51.793 not transmitted by instruction, but by observation and by belonging. 00:17:51.793 --> 00:17:58.973 And since you were addressing the peer groups, the peer groups play very important 00:17:58.973 --> 00:18:01.493 roles in many cultural environments. 00:18:03.425 --> 00:18:11.745 And children obviously spend a large part of the day with other children and 00:18:11.745 --> 00:18:16.165 children socialize each other and children learn from each other. 00:18:16.225 --> 00:18:21.585 I have often observed in the kindergarten setting here in Germany that children 00:18:21.585 --> 00:18:28.065 really follow with their eyes and their head movements what other children are doing. 00:18:28.065 --> 00:18:36.985 But they do not get in touch with each other in the sense that they do something 00:18:36.985 --> 00:18:43.665 independent of an adult teacher monitoring the activity or anything. 00:18:44.045 --> 00:18:51.085 Although we claim to have an egalitarian structure, it's very hierarchical. 00:18:51.545 --> 00:18:59.705 But Heidi, we covered a lot of territory now, right? So what is really interesting, 00:18:59.765 --> 00:19:01.985 there are many elements now popping up. 00:19:02.345 --> 00:19:04.485 Like we look at collaboration. 00:19:06.285 --> 00:19:13.105 Then we talk about, let's say, social units or basic organizational units as a household. 00:19:13.505 --> 00:19:18.285 We talk about self and agency. And we talk also about observational learning. 00:19:18.585 --> 00:19:21.985 So these are quite some things that are not necessarily the same. 00:19:21.985 --> 00:19:31.105 Because if you now go to a Cameroonian village, there are a lot of social behaviors going on. 00:19:31.225 --> 00:19:34.745 Not all of this are expressions of collaboration. 00:19:35.925 --> 00:19:43.265 So in that context, what are then the different patterns of social behaviors we should distinguish? 00:19:45.245 --> 00:19:53.345 I think that the different dimensions that you extracted from what we discussed 00:19:53.345 --> 00:19:57.365 before, they all belong in a way together. 00:19:57.565 --> 00:20:03.725 And we can say they are built in the end, a sense of self. 00:20:03.905 --> 00:20:07.585 So they help to define a particular cultural identity. 00:20:07.585 --> 00:20:19.665 And therefore, collaboration in the Cameroonian village is a major dimension 00:20:19.665 --> 00:20:23.325 of social life, but it's also, 00:20:24.356 --> 00:20:34.816 For instance, and this relates to it, of course, experiencing oneself as part of the social unit. 00:20:35.436 --> 00:20:42.596 For instance, infants are carried on the body of other people almost all the time. 00:20:42.756 --> 00:20:50.476 So they experience a sense of community through movements, through rhythmical 00:20:50.476 --> 00:20:57.456 stimulation and things like that. And there, the opposite is happening. 00:20:57.576 --> 00:21:03.396 What is happening here? Here, when I say here, I mean the Western middle-class environment. 00:21:04.356 --> 00:21:10.556 We want children as early as possible to develop an independent self. 00:21:11.376 --> 00:21:17.836 That means we do everything that they can perceive themselves as separate from others. 00:21:17.836 --> 00:21:22.996 We have particular interaction and mechanism that we can describe, 00:21:23.256 --> 00:21:29.196 like contingent reactiveness to visual information, 00:21:29.716 --> 00:21:35.596 to visual cues in the face-to-face context, etc., where the child is able to 00:21:35.596 --> 00:21:41.716 perceive him or herself as the cause of others' behavior. But it's separated. 00:21:41.996 --> 00:21:49.096 For instance, when a German middle-class mother or a Los Angeles middle-class 00:21:49.096 --> 00:21:54.316 mother, when they talk to their children, 00:21:54.696 --> 00:22:02.176 they pick up the sounds and facial stimuli that the children are expressing. 00:22:02.176 --> 00:22:06.956 But they wait until the child has finished the signal. 00:22:07.196 --> 00:22:13.096 And then they respond within a very short time window that the baby can perceive 00:22:13.096 --> 00:22:18.856 the two events as belonging, two separate events as belonging to each other. 00:22:18.976 --> 00:22:22.736 So the child develops a feeling of causality. 00:22:22.896 --> 00:22:26.496 I can cause others to behave. 00:22:27.156 --> 00:22:32.836 Whereas in many parts of the world, But we did those kind of studies in Cameroon 00:22:32.836 --> 00:22:37.076 and Maya Gratier, a French colleague, did it in India also. 00:22:37.841 --> 00:22:45.361 And Indian communities where vocalizations, for instance, are overlapping. 00:22:45.621 --> 00:22:51.641 So the one actor does not wait until the other has finished, 00:22:51.701 --> 00:22:55.241 but starts acting while the other is finishing. 00:22:55.501 --> 00:23:00.801 So also there, the ego boundaries are blurred, as we can say. 00:23:00.921 --> 00:23:10.661 It's not the emphasis to develop these ego boundaries and the separate self as early as possible, 00:23:10.821 --> 00:23:21.281 but to perceive oneself as a part of a joint action of a communal system. 00:23:21.981 --> 00:23:26.061 And you also are inviting me now to interrupt you whenever I please. 00:23:27.621 --> 00:23:31.001 Please do. I do not stop talking. 00:23:32.321 --> 00:23:40.121 So, I think what you're pushing towards is to say, well, there is, 00:23:40.321 --> 00:23:42.781 in these non-Western environments you described, 00:23:43.061 --> 00:23:49.881 a much more intrinsic sense of community as in the Western environment. 00:23:50.001 --> 00:23:54.981 And as a result of that, we have to think differently about this notion of collaboration, 00:23:55.041 --> 00:23:59.881 this context, because in this non-Western context, it's almost intrinsically there. 00:24:01.501 --> 00:24:06.521 It's a continuous part of the fabric of life, right? You can never step out of it. 00:24:06.681 --> 00:24:10.301 While in the Western world, we're like, oh, now we have to structure our collaboration 00:24:10.301 --> 00:24:13.641 because now we have all these egos together in the same space. 00:24:13.861 --> 00:24:18.881 I think that's a fair interpretation of what you're saying. 00:24:19.081 --> 00:24:25.301 Yeah, definitely, yes. And now, so this is very relevant, but now what comes 00:24:25.301 --> 00:24:29.921 with that is your earlier emphasis on observational learning. 00:24:29.921 --> 00:24:34.381 Now, in the observational learning phase in these non-Western environments, 00:24:34.901 --> 00:24:42.561 are there also aspects in observational learning that then fuel this intrinsic 00:24:42.561 --> 00:24:44.841 form, this implicit form of collaboration? 00:24:45.861 --> 00:24:49.181 Like what you described for instance being carried 00:24:49.181 --> 00:24:53.201 around continuously as part of a collective makes you part of that collective 00:24:53.201 --> 00:25:00.141 but are there other more explicit forms of observational learning that build 00:25:00.141 --> 00:25:03.021 if you want an architecture or 00:25:03.021 --> 00:25:08.281 behavioral patterns that allow the collaboration to continue in that form. 00:25:09.781 --> 00:25:12.541 Yeah the, 00:25:13.932 --> 00:25:24.312 There are interesting studies also with Maya children and with children in other 00:25:24.312 --> 00:25:33.012 non-Western environments showing that during processes of problem solving, 00:25:33.332 --> 00:25:39.292 children observe each other and that there is a lot of non-verbal regulation. 00:25:40.032 --> 00:25:45.492 Barbara Rogoff talks about fluid assemblies. 00:25:45.752 --> 00:25:56.652 So if you have three or four children and you ask them to solve a problem jointly, 00:25:57.132 --> 00:26:08.492 they will do so and they will regulate their behavior in a way that there is 00:26:08.492 --> 00:26:10.452 not much verbal instruction, 00:26:10.772 --> 00:26:14.772 you do this or I do this, and then we do this. 00:26:15.452 --> 00:26:21.512 But there is nonverbal mutual observation and regulation, 00:26:21.912 --> 00:26:26.932 whereas we did those kind of studies with German middle-class children, 00:26:27.072 --> 00:26:33.392 three children were asked to collaborate jointly blindly in solving a small 00:26:33.392 --> 00:26:38.252 problem like copying a tangram. 00:26:38.392 --> 00:26:41.532 And each child had a particular set of pieces. 00:26:41.732 --> 00:26:46.512 So not one single child was able to do it by him or herself. 00:26:46.932 --> 00:26:50.792 So they had to collaborate. They had to find a strategy together. 00:26:50.952 --> 00:26:56.712 And they weren't able to do so. They didn't know what to do as a group of three. 00:26:56.712 --> 00:27:04.192 Because our social life is structured as being the center, the child being the 00:27:04.192 --> 00:27:07.392 center of the adult attention, or... 00:27:08.054 --> 00:27:11.474 We organize our social life in diets. 00:27:11.574 --> 00:27:16.394 Even if we are in bigger groups, we always communicate in diets. 00:27:16.914 --> 00:27:22.514 And if we stop talking to one person, we may address a different person who 00:27:22.514 --> 00:27:25.074 is a bystander in this situation. 00:27:25.454 --> 00:27:32.274 But in other cultural environments, there is a lot of communication going on, 00:27:32.294 --> 00:27:35.254 both verbally and non-verbally, at the same time. 00:27:35.254 --> 00:27:42.974 And children participate and observe in the same time in communicative processes. 00:27:43.534 --> 00:27:50.594 And that's a completely different understanding also of problem solving, for instance. 00:27:50.814 --> 00:27:54.354 But you have done the 10-gram study also in Cameroon? 00:27:54.674 --> 00:27:59.214 No, that did not work because the children were not used to this material. 00:27:59.214 --> 00:28:09.214 We tried to, but a Palestinian master student of mine in Jerusalem did it with 00:28:09.214 --> 00:28:13.194 East Jerusalem Palestinian children. 00:28:13.494 --> 00:28:16.814 And there we had the same pattern than the Maya children. 00:28:17.154 --> 00:28:20.034 So they were fluidly regulating. 00:28:20.394 --> 00:28:26.154 They were never addressing the adult experiment, whereas the German children 00:28:26.154 --> 00:28:30.514 always addressed stressed the adult and they said, I can do it on my own. 00:28:30.694 --> 00:28:34.434 Or they did something silly and said, I'm finished. 00:28:34.694 --> 00:28:41.514 I mean, there was just no idea how to collaborate in a group of three. 00:28:41.574 --> 00:28:48.554 They may be able as two children to somehow get along with the problem. 00:28:48.674 --> 00:28:56.254 But as a group of three, it's already over. Heidi, the fluid synchrony in collaboration 00:28:56.254 --> 00:29:00.274 or the fluid collaboration that Barbara Rogoff talks about. Yeah. 00:29:00.854 --> 00:29:04.054 Now let's take a different example. Okay. 00:29:04.754 --> 00:29:07.074 In the Nassau, for example, in the children community. 00:29:07.703 --> 00:29:11.283 You've described the way that they engage in their daily activities. 00:29:11.743 --> 00:29:19.263 Is it incorrect to, or is it correct to assume that this autonomous community-related 00:29:19.263 --> 00:29:25.723 identity gives them, makes or enables this fluid synchrony in collaboration, 00:29:26.123 --> 00:29:30.083 regardless whether it's under a test situation or in everyday life? 00:29:30.223 --> 00:29:39.103 Have you looked at that specifically in the Nassau? We did a couple of studies with older children, 00:29:39.283 --> 00:29:45.383 with three to six-year-old children, with respect to those issues. 00:29:45.683 --> 00:29:57.243 And I think one of the differences is that the children have learned by this age to be unique. 00:29:57.243 --> 00:30:06.283 So they get mirrored even with their silliest contribution that this is extraordinary 00:30:06.283 --> 00:30:11.863 and this is fantastic and they are the biggest. 00:30:11.863 --> 00:30:19.443 Is for instance we we did a comparative study many years back with chinese mother 00:30:19.443 --> 00:30:26.283 infant diets children were three months of age and with german middle class 00:30:26.283 --> 00:30:28.083 berlin children beijing and berlin. 00:30:28.743 --> 00:30:36.003 And all middle class families by the way and so the um the german mothers always 00:30:36.003 --> 00:30:40.303 say you are the the biggest look at and Los Angeles mothers, 00:30:40.403 --> 00:30:43.223 we also had look at this strong legs, 00:30:43.543 --> 00:30:50.163 and you are the most wonderful boy in the world and things like that. 00:30:50.243 --> 00:30:54.843 And the Chinese mothers were look at these tiny little feet. 00:30:55.103 --> 00:31:01.363 And they were talking, addressing other people, but other people were doing 00:31:01.363 --> 00:31:04.743 and they were not centering the. 00:31:05.812 --> 00:31:09.112 Child in center stage all the time and 00:31:09.112 --> 00:31:12.232 I think that that makes really a 00:31:12.232 --> 00:31:15.472 difference this feeling of uniqueness 00:31:15.472 --> 00:31:25.292 or feeling as being a part of it so I think the title of one of the papers language 00:31:25.292 --> 00:31:34.592 behavior that we did was fitting in or sticking out so that captured this difference And children, 00:31:34.752 --> 00:31:40.892 I mean, very often I had the impression in German kindergartens that children 00:31:40.892 --> 00:31:45.932 love to do the same thing than other children, but they're not allowed to do so. 00:31:45.932 --> 00:31:52.132 So they have to do their own thing and to their individual interest. 00:31:52.432 --> 00:32:01.192 And children love singing the same song all together or drumming the same beat 00:32:01.192 --> 00:32:04.732 all together on drums or doing things like that. 00:32:04.772 --> 00:32:12.352 Children love this. But we do not give them the space to follow those activities, 00:32:12.552 --> 00:32:18.492 which would lead to more kind of experiences also of togetherness. 00:32:18.572 --> 00:32:21.832 And as humans and as cultures, we need both. 00:32:22.572 --> 00:32:34.632 I mean, we have all the problems with social behavior and with feelings of loneliness and things like that. 00:32:34.632 --> 00:32:39.652 I mean, social belonging is very important everywhere. 00:32:40.172 --> 00:32:44.412 Heidi, if you look at the Maya case or the Cameroonian case, 00:32:44.992 --> 00:32:47.972 are there control processes still at work? 00:32:48.112 --> 00:32:51.492 Are there gatekeepers of the collaboration that put boundaries? 00:32:51.712 --> 00:32:55.632 Is there any constraint on the process? Because now you describe it very much 00:32:55.632 --> 00:33:04.552 bottom-up, self-organizing, no constraints, no external coercion on anything. Is that really the case? 00:33:04.752 --> 00:33:07.612 There are no gatekeepers, there are no constraints on the process? 00:33:08.132 --> 00:33:10.972 Yeah, but it's more monitoring. 00:33:12.032 --> 00:33:22.592 Monitoring whether the child has the possibility to do the activities in question. For instance. 00:33:24.932 --> 00:33:35.132 The children are allowed to contribute even if they make a mess in cleaning 00:33:35.132 --> 00:33:36.252 the house, for instance. 00:33:36.472 --> 00:33:41.332 Children are allowed to clean even if they are not able to do it. 00:33:41.452 --> 00:33:50.912 And the mothers or older siblings or whoever is in the end cleaning the whole thing. 00:33:50.912 --> 00:33:58.232 But the child has developed or has experienced that he or she can contribute, 00:33:58.532 --> 00:34:00.792 whereas we give instructions. 00:34:01.932 --> 00:34:05.092 So in these environments, the children are never punished for anything? 00:34:06.362 --> 00:34:13.002 I would not say never. I mean, but usually not, no. 00:34:13.282 --> 00:34:17.782 Okay. And this contribution, this mode of contribution and identity, 00:34:17.982 --> 00:34:21.882 certainly you've looked at these communities on a longitudinal basis. 00:34:21.882 --> 00:34:28.482 Is the stability of the community dependent or reliant on this contribution, 00:34:28.862 --> 00:34:36.462 this culture of contribution that is cultivated from child rearing up, child development up? 00:34:37.622 --> 00:34:45.822 Yeah, certainly. Certainly. I think culture is, from my understanding, 00:34:46.082 --> 00:34:50.182 is a reflection of contextual decisions. 00:34:50.842 --> 00:34:58.942 And the contextual decisions is, for instance, we have analyzed cultural milieus 00:34:58.942 --> 00:35:02.382 in terms of degree of formal schooling, 00:35:02.802 --> 00:35:08.202 of age at first birth, number of children in the household, household composition, 00:35:09.142 --> 00:35:12.762 and things like that. 00:35:13.002 --> 00:35:20.802 And in these milieus, different styles, also different social styles emerge, 00:35:21.362 --> 00:35:26.542 that maintain to the continuity of these styles. 00:35:26.782 --> 00:35:35.082 But if these dimensions change, like, for instance, formal schooling becomes more. 00:35:35.082 --> 00:35:43.082 We have observed this also in Germany, then also the interaction styles change over time. 00:35:43.202 --> 00:35:48.362 So it's becoming more distant, less corporal, less proximal, 00:35:48.362 --> 00:35:56.002 as we say, less touching, less body contact and more face-to-face contact and more verbalization. 00:36:00.889 --> 00:36:08.329 And I think what's important to me is that we don't understand one context that 00:36:08.329 --> 00:36:13.569 has less formal schooling, not as deficit, so that we need to supplement things there. 00:36:13.629 --> 00:36:15.929 It's a different cultural context. 00:36:16.329 --> 00:36:25.549 And poverty, as is often equated with poor parenting, that's a completely unethical 00:36:25.549 --> 00:36:30.209 conclusion, as some colleagues and I consider. 00:36:30.889 --> 00:36:35.909 Continue arguing. So that's not the case. But of course, it makes a difference 00:36:35.909 --> 00:36:45.369 if the family or the household needs to cooperate in order to secure the economic base of the household, 00:36:45.529 --> 00:36:54.589 or whether there is an affluent environment where also adults can afford to 00:36:54.589 --> 00:36:59.289 spend a whole year or three years attending children. 00:37:00.209 --> 00:37:09.289 Heidi, in some sense, it sounds like the non-Western examples you list are more humane in some sense. 00:37:09.469 --> 00:37:14.809 They're less forcing us into a certain mode of operation, but that might not 00:37:14.809 --> 00:37:17.969 imply that it has no limitations. 00:37:18.709 --> 00:37:22.909 Because maybe in this very open way of building collaborative systems, 00:37:23.249 --> 00:37:30.689 you have limitations in the scaling So could your Cameroonian collaborative 00:37:30.689 --> 00:37:32.829 system, or the Maya example, 00:37:33.249 --> 00:37:36.269 give rise to an Apollo project? 00:37:39.049 --> 00:37:42.489 No, but they also wouldn't want to. No, no. 00:37:43.329 --> 00:37:47.749 They have other ideas about eternity or space. 00:37:48.109 --> 00:37:53.129 But you see the challenge, right? So there might be a limitation because what 00:37:53.129 --> 00:37:57.729 you're describing, I think, is also a collaborative system where the individual 00:37:57.729 --> 00:38:00.209 participants are almost exchangeable. 00:38:01.049 --> 00:38:05.849 So there's less specialization and it's more a collective. 00:38:06.189 --> 00:38:12.889 But that also means that the collective in terms of its functional impact might be, I'm saying, right? 00:38:12.969 --> 00:38:18.109 I'm just trying to test this on you, might be more restricted in what it can achieve. 00:38:20.349 --> 00:38:23.409 Um yeah that's a 00:38:23.409 --> 00:38:27.109 very delicate issue um one 00:38:27.109 --> 00:38:30.409 thing i wouldn't say it's more humane because that 00:38:30.409 --> 00:38:38.249 sounds like romanticizing uh this natural living conditions and and i'm strictly 00:38:38.249 --> 00:38:44.489 opposed uh to romanticizing that there are lots of problems in in every context 00:38:44.489 --> 00:38:47.109 But on the other hand, it's... 00:38:48.862 --> 00:38:57.382 I mean, all these cultural practices are important to adapt to and to live and 00:38:57.382 --> 00:38:59.742 become competent in particular contexts. 00:39:00.222 --> 00:39:05.382 And of course, in our kind of Western middle class context, 00:39:05.702 --> 00:39:12.742 there is a kind of intelligence that has been developed that is highly analytical 00:39:12.742 --> 00:39:18.402 and that wants to extend the boundaries of knowledge. 00:39:18.862 --> 00:39:26.002 And find out more about the environment and ourselves and everything. 00:39:26.442 --> 00:39:34.282 In other cultures' environments, thinking is more holistically oriented and 00:39:34.282 --> 00:39:40.862 it's not so much directed into the future or the past. 00:39:41.062 --> 00:39:47.882 It's more the here and now, which is important, which is adapted to that kind of living. 00:39:47.882 --> 00:39:56.962 And also, there are systems of thought that are not rational. 00:39:57.602 --> 00:40:01.022 But wait, I feel, Heidi, that you're stepping over the challenge now, 00:40:01.182 --> 00:40:08.062 and you try to explain the difference without yet agreeing on what that difference could be, right? 00:40:08.062 --> 00:40:13.542 Because my first challenge was, wouldn't these non-Western collaborative systems 00:40:13.542 --> 00:40:17.802 not be more restricted in their functional application? 00:40:18.242 --> 00:40:22.182 So irrespective of the ontology behind it. 00:40:22.942 --> 00:40:31.522 If we would take a collective of this Cameroonian village and we would confront 00:40:31.522 --> 00:40:33.802 them with a very deep challenge, 00:40:33.982 --> 00:40:37.962 let's say ecological collapse, Perhaps would they come up with a better solution 00:40:37.962 --> 00:40:40.722 than a Western collaborative team? 00:40:42.579 --> 00:40:47.199 So it's about the functional scalability of that collaborative system. 00:40:47.699 --> 00:40:52.399 Yes, I see. But let me say one thing first. 00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:58.879 I don't think that it is more restricted because children actually learn more 00:40:58.879 --> 00:41:01.159 than one communicative script. 00:41:02.099 --> 00:41:09.199 They learn a script to apply within children's groups and they learn a different 00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:15.319 script to apply interacting with adults. whereas our children only learn one script. 00:41:15.619 --> 00:41:21.099 So they are more restricted in the range of everyday behavior. 00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:33.799 And I'm sure we can observe this also, that people coming as refugees or as migrants. 00:41:35.179 --> 00:41:39.619 Despite all the difficulties that Western states impose on them, 00:41:39.619 --> 00:41:50.359 are able to adapt and acquire the new culture here and function in it and become quite successful, 00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:52.299 many of them. 00:41:52.479 --> 00:42:01.579 Whereas I know these novels from anthropologists. 00:42:02.339 --> 00:42:09.579 Nigel Barley, I think, was one British anthropologist who tried to survive in 00:42:09.579 --> 00:42:14.179 Cameroon, and he almost died, and he wasn't able. 00:42:14.359 --> 00:42:19.979 So I think as far as on the scale of the individual. 00:42:22.359 --> 00:42:25.819 Our system is not the most flexible one. 00:42:26.619 --> 00:42:33.619 But of course, we have, I don't know whether a better water irrigation system system, 00:42:33.619 --> 00:42:40.039 a better water irrigation system would be developed by communion farmers or 00:42:40.039 --> 00:42:42.159 by German entrepreneurs. 00:42:42.899 --> 00:42:47.439 That is my question, yeah. Yes, I know. I can't answer this question. 00:42:47.439 --> 00:42:56.659 Or probably the entrepreneur would be more successful, but on the shorthand, 00:42:56.779 --> 00:43:09.399 because Because they would maybe not have the destiny of the landscape in mind. 00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:13.359 So, yes, destroying our environment to a large extent. 00:43:13.999 --> 00:43:21.979 But now, Heidi, so if we now see this difference in the collaboration styles. 00:43:23.279 --> 00:43:30.739 So what I'm after is this idea that also from an evolutionary psychology perspective, 00:43:30.979 --> 00:43:38.679 do you see invariance in these non-Western examples that you also see back in 00:43:38.679 --> 00:43:41.739 other primates, for instance? Do you see... 00:43:42.345 --> 00:43:47.625 Parallels there. Observational learning, right? Capuchin monkeys are great in 00:43:47.625 --> 00:43:50.065 observational learning, as an example. 00:43:50.445 --> 00:43:52.165 Bonobos are great in collaboration. 00:43:52.845 --> 00:43:57.785 So, have you identified common principles there? Or are there any? 00:43:58.145 --> 00:44:06.165 Yes, we have a wonderful new paper coming out with Kim Bart being the leading 00:44:06.165 --> 00:44:08.945 author and actually it's her 00:44:08.945 --> 00:44:14.885 research and we were all very proud to contribute to it, a group of us, 00:44:16.145 --> 00:44:28.165 where we are comparing a group of non-human primates and children from a hunter-gatherer, 00:44:28.245 --> 00:44:33.185 from a farming community and from British middle class families. 00:44:33.185 --> 00:44:35.985 With respect to joint attention. 00:44:37.305 --> 00:44:44.925 There is this big discussion whether joint attention is a unique human capacity, etc. 00:44:45.365 --> 00:44:51.705 And in this SRCD monograph, which is about to come out, 00:44:51.905 --> 00:45:00.825 we clearly demonstrate that if you adapt the definition of joint attention away 00:45:00.825 --> 00:45:03.885 from the Western middle class perspective, 00:45:04.265 --> 00:45:09.785 then you find all forms of joint attention in all species. 00:45:10.525 --> 00:45:16.265 And this is, I think, from my point of view, that will be… But now, 00:45:16.265 --> 00:45:18.465 before reading your paper…, 00:45:18.958 --> 00:45:22.618 How did you redefine joint attention then in this case? 00:45:23.058 --> 00:45:28.698 So we did not say there must an object be included, for instance. 00:45:28.918 --> 00:45:40.718 But the attentional target needs to be directed towards something out of the particular diet. 00:45:40.998 --> 00:45:45.678 And we included different behaviors. 00:45:45.678 --> 00:45:57.398 So, we had an inclusive definition of joint attentional processes without having 00:45:57.398 --> 00:46:05.518 the triadic object-person design in mind. 00:46:05.518 --> 00:46:13.478 And also this design may be as an experimental artifact, but beaver observing 00:46:13.478 --> 00:46:19.438 children in natural situations and not in particular experimental setups. 00:46:19.798 --> 00:46:28.138 And there also this classical form of joint attention in the British children was less than 10%. 00:46:28.138 --> 00:46:35.938 So it's not a very popular behavior anyway. So the British hunter-gatherers didn't do that? 00:46:37.238 --> 00:46:40.738 Right. Okay. But Heidi, 00:46:40.858 --> 00:46:46.878 this is now creating an interesting scenario because now I could suggest that 00:46:46.878 --> 00:46:52.618 the Western cultures have invented something, 00:46:53.118 --> 00:46:53.598 right? 00:46:53.678 --> 00:46:59.638 Some cultural add-on to these collaborative processes that pulled them away 00:46:59.638 --> 00:47:06.418 from this more, let's say, biologically grounded set of collaborative principles. 00:47:07.818 --> 00:47:12.258 So what would that be? What pulled them away from this more, 00:47:12.258 --> 00:47:18.758 let's say, intrinsic, prior, collaborative principle? 00:47:21.721 --> 00:47:27.761 It's about collaborative principles, after all, in every case. 00:47:28.121 --> 00:47:31.741 And I think what is added, and 00:47:31.741 --> 00:47:37.801 that's a phenomenon that is related to the experience of formal schooling, 00:47:38.061 --> 00:47:46.741 is that the reflective mode is increasing so that the mentalizing becomes prominent. 00:47:46.741 --> 00:47:50.481 So the ideational probing 00:47:50.481 --> 00:47:53.941 with all kinds of negative 00:47:53.941 --> 00:48:01.641 effects also that making people very insecure about the decisions they have 00:48:01.641 --> 00:48:07.561 taken and that we have the opportunity cost where we can spend days and hours 00:48:07.561 --> 00:48:10.541 reflecting whether we took the right decision. 00:48:10.541 --> 00:48:14.501 I've made a prediction, and as usual, my predictions are wrong, 00:48:14.661 --> 00:48:19.981 because I thought you were going to say it is the ego, it's the autonomy of 00:48:19.981 --> 00:48:22.841 the self, because that's what you mentioned earlier. 00:48:23.861 --> 00:48:28.401 So is that an invention that Western culture has added to this? 00:48:28.921 --> 00:48:33.921 It's a particular kind of autonomy. As I said, it's a psychological autonomy, 00:48:34.061 --> 00:48:36.881 and that is related to this mentalizing. 00:48:36.881 --> 00:48:45.001 And yeah, in a way, you can define it as added to this. 00:48:45.181 --> 00:48:53.141 But if we want to see it in a developmental course as adding something. 00:48:54.201 --> 00:48:57.541 Then we also have to take into account the side effects. 00:48:57.881 --> 00:49:01.801 And it has a lot of side effects that we usually ignore. 00:49:01.801 --> 00:49:10.581 And we have a lot of ethical problems in comparing or in taking this kind of 00:49:10.581 --> 00:49:20.781 definition as the norm that everybody has to get to and to devaluating all the other... 00:49:21.401 --> 00:49:25.641 Now, is there an idea or do you have an idea where in our cultural evolution... 00:49:26.889 --> 00:49:30.669 This transition happened? Is it like an enlightenment invention? 00:49:32.569 --> 00:49:36.009 I'm not so firm with historical epochs, 00:49:36.169 --> 00:49:43.209 but I think Bob Levine and Sarah Levine in their 2016 books, 00:49:43.349 --> 00:49:51.229 they have analyzed these things and they said some turning point was with food 00:49:51.229 --> 00:49:53.849 accumulation, when food accumulation started, 00:49:54.129 --> 00:50:02.769 and some other turning point was when life became more urban in urban centers 00:50:02.769 --> 00:50:11.089 with the consequence of more anonymous encounters of people and not these face-to-face societies. 00:50:11.589 --> 00:50:19.229 And I think if you are a better historian than I am, then you may be able to 00:50:19.229 --> 00:50:21.409 identify those turning points. 00:50:21.409 --> 00:50:27.949 But you would agree that there is a cultural invention that makes the difference 00:50:27.949 --> 00:50:33.549 between the middle-class Western forms of collaboration and what you have observed 00:50:33.549 --> 00:50:35.809 in these Mayan and Cameroonian villages. 00:50:35.989 --> 00:50:41.309 Yes, there is a cultural invention, but I would not evaluate it as better. 00:50:41.809 --> 00:50:46.589 No, no, I wasn't suggesting that. No, no, I wanted just to stress this again 00:50:46.589 --> 00:50:51.709 because it's important, I think. No, you convinced me that you don't believe 00:50:51.709 --> 00:50:53.609 it is necessarily better. 00:50:54.329 --> 00:50:57.629 Is it also contingent on the size of the community? 00:50:58.509 --> 00:51:02.789 For example, the size of the farming community in Cameroon versus somewhere 00:51:02.789 --> 00:51:05.429 in Guatemala versus Philadelphia? Yeah. 00:51:06.175 --> 00:51:16.615 I think the size plays a role because the size is defining, to some extent, 00:51:16.955 --> 00:51:22.575 whom we know personally or at least have seen or not seen. 00:51:22.655 --> 00:51:28.075 Where are the limits? I think, yes, this size plays a role, and there are all 00:51:28.075 --> 00:51:36.215 these consequences described for the life in the big urban centers, 00:51:36.335 --> 00:51:41.275 but also in many urban centers, there are these village-like structures, 00:51:41.355 --> 00:51:48.575 not only in New York City, but also in other parts of big cities where people 00:51:48.575 --> 00:51:56.855 try to kind of reinvent some rural structures within larger communities. 00:51:57.135 --> 00:52:02.015 And by the way, also with appropriation of space. 00:52:02.095 --> 00:52:06.995 And for instance, in many cities in Germany, probably in other cities as well. 00:52:09.715 --> 00:52:21.435 Where people kind of invent little gardens in front of the side box and things like that. 00:52:21.775 --> 00:52:26.855 And I think this is something where common space is also created, 00:52:27.075 --> 00:52:34.795 that people can share all these urban gardening initiatives and things like that. 00:52:34.795 --> 00:52:40.435 So I think there is, although we love to live, 00:52:40.595 --> 00:52:44.255 and maybe also it's something that changes over the lifespan, 00:52:44.415 --> 00:52:50.335 that at some points we prefer the more anonymous way of life in big cities. 00:52:50.355 --> 00:52:57.615 And at other points in our biography, we love more the face-to-face community 00:52:57.615 --> 00:53:04.455 of a village or also the landscape versus the architectural environment. 00:53:04.795 --> 00:53:08.995 I mean, but this is mere speculation now on my side. 00:53:09.175 --> 00:53:15.055 So Heidi, if we look at these forms of collaboration in, for instance, 00:53:15.135 --> 00:53:19.255 the Cameroonian example, what would be the disruptors there? 00:53:19.375 --> 00:53:21.355 Under what conditions would it break down? 00:53:22.829 --> 00:53:27.129 This may sound paradoxical, 00:53:27.189 --> 00:53:36.849 but formal schooling often is interrupting these processes because I'm not against 00:53:36.849 --> 00:53:38.089 formal schooling everywhere, 00:53:38.309 --> 00:53:40.409 to make this clear. 00:53:40.409 --> 00:53:52.129 But if formal schooling is an offer with no consequences on changing the life reality of the people, 00:53:52.289 --> 00:54:01.029 not offering paid labor or other forms of existence or subsistence, 00:54:01.029 --> 00:54:03.569 if you want, then the formal schooling, 00:54:03.789 --> 00:54:09.249 in fact, is disrupting the life of the children. 00:54:09.249 --> 00:54:14.369 And there are examples, there are studies that are showing that children in 00:54:14.369 --> 00:54:19.409 the end are worse off than unschooled children in the villages. 00:54:19.849 --> 00:54:27.229 What do you mean by worse off? I mean, there are fractions in the family relationships 00:54:27.229 --> 00:54:31.849 because, for instance, there was this example. 00:54:32.069 --> 00:54:38.509 A Cameroonian colleague once told me that a child who had received some formal 00:54:38.509 --> 00:54:42.729 education has built a wall within the house. 00:54:42.729 --> 00:54:51.409 So in order to make clear that he is now something special or it's interrupting the generational. 00:54:53.500 --> 00:54:59.000 The generational relationships, because the older generation usually is the 00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:03.800 wiser one, and now the younger ones are able to do it. 00:55:03.820 --> 00:55:07.580 It's not that easy as I'm now describing it. 00:55:07.700 --> 00:55:13.000 And we have this in migrant families also with children, being able to speak 00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:21.020 the language and serving as cultural brokers for the family with positive effects. 00:55:21.020 --> 00:55:29.260 So it often may sound as it is this or that when I'm talking about these things. 00:55:29.380 --> 00:55:37.060 Of course, everything is very complex and every kind of phenotype is a lot of variability included. 00:55:37.060 --> 00:55:48.140 But it certainly also has these effects that it can disrupt the well-being and 00:55:48.140 --> 00:55:51.120 the family cohesion. Right. 00:55:52.120 --> 00:55:59.360 But if I listen to you correctly, in some sense you're also saying humans, 00:55:59.560 --> 00:56:05.520 as other primates, also are thrown in the world with an intrinsic drive to collaborate. 00:56:05.520 --> 00:56:08.020 Collaborate, equipped to collaborate. 00:56:08.320 --> 00:56:10.160 In the beginning, yes. Exactly. 00:56:10.900 --> 00:56:17.080 And then culture can mess it up in some sense or shape that in some form. 00:56:17.300 --> 00:56:21.360 So I really appreciate that point. 00:56:21.660 --> 00:56:25.380 But now, if you look at the field at large, you said it earlier already, 00:56:25.560 --> 00:56:29.200 it might appear that you have these binary distinctions, but actually there's 00:56:29.200 --> 00:56:35.600 a lot of complexity in between. What do you see as the most fundamental question the field must answer? 00:56:36.580 --> 00:56:38.960 Your field, the most fundamental question, only one. 00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:47.460 The ethical question, actually. Yeah. If I may add a sentence? 00:56:49.400 --> 00:56:56.520 Sure. Because all the big stakeholders like UNICEF, World Health Organization, 00:56:56.520 --> 00:56:58.760 organization are the NGOs and foundations, 00:56:59.060 --> 00:57:04.980 they take the Western middle class 5%. 00:57:07.571 --> 00:57:10.871 Portion of the world population and their 00:57:10.871 --> 00:57:14.591 psychology as the norm and 00:57:14.591 --> 00:57:17.971 without proving it intervene and 00:57:17.971 --> 00:57:23.391 cultural systems all over the world count the number of heads and the number 00:57:23.391 --> 00:57:32.671 of countries they have reached and want to impose our western they call it the 00:57:32.671 --> 00:57:36.491 nurturing framework play and the nurturing framework. 00:57:36.951 --> 00:57:45.751 And I mean, there is an enormous amount of money is just thrown out of the window, 00:57:45.831 --> 00:57:53.971 but there is also a deep disrespect concerning other cultures and other human beings. 00:57:54.131 --> 00:57:59.611 And I think that's a major task that some colleagues and I really take serious 00:57:59.611 --> 00:58:03.971 to work on that question more deeply. 00:58:04.311 --> 00:58:09.351 Right. But what's the shape of the answer that you envision to that question? 00:58:11.811 --> 00:58:20.011 I think we have, and this has implications also for how we deal with migrants 00:58:20.011 --> 00:58:26.211 and what we're doing to migrant families and children in the Western culture. 00:58:26.211 --> 00:58:35.711 There is so much misery, which is caused by maybe even well intentions. 00:58:36.991 --> 00:58:47.691 But I think respecting other cultures as having the same right to exist than 00:58:47.691 --> 00:58:50.231 we think of our own cultural system. 00:58:50.231 --> 00:58:56.611 System and to find out the strengths and the weaknesses of every cultural system 00:58:56.611 --> 00:59:07.831 without comparing across cultures the good things to the bad things and to kind of allow for, 00:59:08.787 --> 00:59:15.827 flexibility and variability. I think variability, humans wouldn't have survived 00:59:15.827 --> 00:59:18.007 if there wouldn't be genetic variability. 00:59:18.607 --> 00:59:22.327 And also psychological variability is crucial to survival. 00:59:22.627 --> 00:59:26.347 And we need to understand that this is the 00:59:26.347 --> 00:59:41.227 only way humankind can exist so that every individual finds at least circumstances 00:59:41.227 --> 00:59:46.107 that allow a sense of well-being. 00:59:46.367 --> 00:59:52.147 Right. Now, do you think this whole period of COVID has taught us anything relevant 00:59:52.147 --> 00:59:53.447 about human collaboration? 00:59:55.267 --> 01:00:00.927 It's interesting. There are some studies comparing how different countries in 01:00:00.927 --> 01:00:03.887 that case coped with COVID. 01:00:04.267 --> 01:00:12.267 I think Germany and also the Netherlands, by the way, did not do very well compared 01:00:12.267 --> 01:00:13.827 to Denmark, for instance. 01:00:14.107 --> 01:00:16.827 Denmark did much better at some 01:00:16.827 --> 01:00:22.027 point, but it's also through the new developments that come all the time. 01:00:23.187 --> 01:00:24.967 It's changing also. 01:00:26.367 --> 01:00:36.267 I don't know. If I look into this German discussion and the German politics, 01:00:36.607 --> 01:00:41.167 I can't see much that has been learned. 01:00:41.447 --> 01:00:48.127 But it would have been a tremendous field of learning and tremendous field of 01:00:48.127 --> 01:00:51.867 opportunities for learning if people would take it seriously. 01:00:51.867 --> 01:00:57.947 But you can see in Germany, we have these enemies of vaccination, 01:00:58.047 --> 01:01:03.547 and they only think of their individual rights. 01:01:03.767 --> 01:01:08.527 They never think of other people or of the community or anything. 01:01:08.707 --> 01:01:13.467 So in a sense, it's very disappointing what is going on there. 01:01:13.667 --> 01:01:18.407 It's also the breakdown of collaboration in that sense, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 01:01:18.647 --> 01:01:24.427 So, but now, my last two questions, it's also in the light of this last remark, 01:01:25.467 --> 01:01:29.147 do you believe, if you now project to the future, will humans, 01:01:29.267 --> 01:01:36.127 will humanity on this global scale ever be able to really build sustainable collaboration? 01:01:39.127 --> 01:01:44.867 Honestly, no. I don't think so, because... 01:01:47.827 --> 01:01:48.167 Yeah. 01:01:50.269 --> 01:02:00.689 I mean, it's a very difficult question, as you know, and I certainly only can intuitively answer. 01:02:00.849 --> 01:02:10.949 But I think economic interests are the reigning principles in the end. 01:02:11.089 --> 01:02:17.649 And economic interests rarely take the well-being of people in the first place. 01:02:17.649 --> 01:02:22.129 And it's also in the villages I'm talking about. 01:02:22.229 --> 01:02:25.809 They are not representing their respective states. 01:02:26.369 --> 01:02:31.909 There is also everywhere is a lot of corruption and lots of things and people 01:02:31.909 --> 01:02:34.849 are working against each other. 01:02:35.009 --> 01:02:43.569 So, no, I'm an optimistic person, but I see this rather pessimistic. Right. 01:02:44.789 --> 01:02:49.049 So my last question then would be, but if you could change one thing in humans, 01:02:49.249 --> 01:02:55.229 just one thing, one feature of humans, what feature would you change so that 01:02:55.229 --> 01:02:57.489 they would be able to collaborate better? 01:03:00.489 --> 01:03:08.209 The two related features. Do not take yourself as the center of the world and 01:03:08.209 --> 01:03:10.309 develop interest for others. 01:03:10.309 --> 01:03:17.249 To really be interested about others' life and why they are believing what they 01:03:17.249 --> 01:03:20.689 believe and how do they see what we are doing. 01:03:21.069 --> 01:03:31.009 So it's very often if you interview migrant families here in Germany, as we did, 01:03:31.849 --> 01:03:38.769 they are so surprised that somebody is interested how they raise their children 01:03:38.769 --> 01:03:41.129 and why they are doing what they are doing. 01:03:41.229 --> 01:03:46.509 They say, I'm living here for 30 years and nobody has ever asked me a question like that. 01:03:46.669 --> 01:03:53.289 So I think we are not interested in other people to a sufficient extent. 01:03:54.669 --> 01:03:58.709 Heidi Keller, thank you very much for this collaborative effort. 01:03:59.349 --> 01:04:01.389 Thank you. Thank you, Heidi. 01:04:02.429 --> 01:04:07.589 Hi, you listened to one of our podcasts in the series on collaboration produced 01:04:07.589 --> 01:04:10.489 by the Ernst Trommel Forum and the Convergent Science Network. 01:04:11.229 --> 01:04:14.189 You can find more episodes on our website.