WEBVTT 00:00:04.981 --> 00:00:08.701 Welcome to the Convergent Science and Ernst Schumann Forum podcast on collaboration. 00:00:09.681 --> 00:00:14.041 I'm Paul Versteur, together with my colleague Julia Lupp, who speak with Professor 00:00:14.041 --> 00:00:19.381 Giannis Manzotti, composer, mathematician, and research leader of the Interdisciplinary 00:00:19.381 --> 00:00:23.721 Nucleus of Sound Communication at the University of Campinas in Brazil. 00:00:24.621 --> 00:00:29.441 His research is focused on applications of mathematical models of complex systems 00:00:29.441 --> 00:00:33.941 to music composition and interactive systems. As a composer, 00:00:34.061 --> 00:00:37.481 he has created and performed dozens of orchestra pieces and operas. 00:00:38.101 --> 00:00:43.441 Jonathan reflects on collaboration in the performing arts. Welcome to the podcast. 00:00:44.601 --> 00:00:47.461 Really, it's amazing to be with you, Paul. 00:00:48.601 --> 00:00:52.501 For a long time, we don't see each other in presence. 00:00:52.861 --> 00:00:58.681 And also, Julia, it's an immense pleasure. And thank you for inviting me to this talk. 00:00:59.681 --> 00:01:05.141 Great. Well, so, Jonathas, before we start to discuss collaboration, 00:01:05.681 --> 00:01:11.541 could you give a short description of your career path so far that brought you 00:01:11.541 --> 00:01:15.201 to this point of the discussion with us on collaboration? 00:01:16.783 --> 00:01:21.643 Okay, I think my, if I'm going to say something about that, I think the story 00:01:21.643 --> 00:01:26.063 starts when I decided to follow classes in the universe. 00:01:26.303 --> 00:01:31.843 I was doing maths, and also I decided to go to follow musical classes. 00:01:31.963 --> 00:01:34.903 I have done musical classes before and so on. 00:01:35.403 --> 00:01:42.443 And suddenly these things crash in my mind or in my view of the world, 00:01:42.483 --> 00:01:47.983 because on one side I have people trying to say to me that I have to understand things. 00:01:48.683 --> 00:01:54.303 And the other side, I have people try to make me think about emotion. 00:01:55.323 --> 00:02:00.883 About interpretation, and about how interpretation can be a word model. 00:02:00.983 --> 00:02:04.703 And the other side, the mathematicians try to understand. You have to understand. 00:02:05.403 --> 00:02:10.603 And I think from that, I think I became a little bit a slave of this. 00:02:10.783 --> 00:02:18.103 I don't know if my life is for interpretation or if my life is for understanding. 00:02:18.643 --> 00:02:23.823 And I don't know. I think for humankind, is that the biggest problem? 00:02:23.903 --> 00:02:27.503 If you understand things or if you do interpretations of things. 00:02:27.983 --> 00:02:35.563 And after that, when I was doing math and music, I decided to go to a master's degree in math. 00:02:35.703 --> 00:02:39.263 So I decided to understand, in 00:02:39.263 --> 00:02:44.043 that case, is understand how the musical instrument works in an orchestra. 00:02:44.863 --> 00:02:49.903 And it was immense work. And when I came out of that, I didn't make any kind 00:02:49.903 --> 00:02:51.703 of musical composition. 00:02:52.043 --> 00:02:56.203 I was a little bit frustrated because I understood the orchestra and I make 00:02:56.203 --> 00:03:01.143 a very sophisticated mathematical model, but I didn't play with it. 00:03:01.343 --> 00:03:04.923 One main thing, I understand it, but I don't produce art. 00:03:05.043 --> 00:03:10.723 I didn't produce art. So that I decided to move to my PhD in composition, 00:03:11.063 --> 00:03:15.883 so the emphasis should be or would be in creation. 00:03:16.882 --> 00:03:21.402 But also, I started to go and understand this. 00:03:21.522 --> 00:03:27.942 And always in the PhD, I have this discussion about, are you producing music 00:03:27.942 --> 00:03:32.342 with maths or are you producing arts or something like that? 00:03:32.502 --> 00:03:34.762 I think it's my entire life. 00:03:34.922 --> 00:03:39.262 So after that, I understood, and I'm not going to go into details, 00:03:39.402 --> 00:03:46.422 that what I'm doing now and what's my purpose in life is to be a kind of interface, a kind of bridge. 00:03:46.882 --> 00:03:53.022 Between possibilities of understanding and interpretation. 00:03:53.962 --> 00:03:56.922 For me, art is not for understanding anything. 00:03:57.882 --> 00:04:03.502 Art in music is for interpretation, is to produce things that make us to, 00:04:03.542 --> 00:04:06.002 not to understand the world, but to live. 00:04:07.122 --> 00:04:11.942 And for the other side, science is somehow made for understanding. 00:04:13.142 --> 00:04:19.202 But I think both profit from each other Because if you make a question about 00:04:19.202 --> 00:04:25.522 how the universe starts, you understand that you wouldn't know what it means. 00:04:25.782 --> 00:04:30.662 Because life is not only depends on how the universe starts, 00:04:30.762 --> 00:04:32.342 it depends on many, many other things. 00:04:33.082 --> 00:04:39.762 So in that sense, after that, I started to teach at the University of Campinas. 00:04:39.762 --> 00:04:45.702 And from there, I drive my students in this kind of questions. 00:04:45.982 --> 00:04:49.102 And for many years, I was the head of the... 00:04:51.424 --> 00:04:57.124 The Interdisciplinary Nucleus for Sound Studies, and I have their students from 00:04:57.124 --> 00:05:00.024 music, from dance, from engineering. 00:05:00.444 --> 00:05:04.344 And one day in my life, I met Paul in Unicamp. 00:05:04.684 --> 00:05:12.904 We had this conversation how our robots can drive a program or a system that 00:05:12.904 --> 00:05:17.084 was developing with a system that's based on maths. 00:05:17.224 --> 00:05:20.984 So the idea is how this robot talks to the system. 00:05:21.744 --> 00:05:28.164 And from that, we developed many, many, many, let's say, many conversations. 00:05:28.624 --> 00:05:36.004 And coming to today, inside this COVID pandemics, 00:05:36.744 --> 00:05:43.064 I start to think that the best for this kind of research is not only to produce 00:05:43.064 --> 00:05:50.404 artifacts Artifacts that interact with people, but produce artifacts that make good for people. 00:05:51.724 --> 00:05:53.764 It's different, you know? 00:05:56.404 --> 00:05:59.924 Paul, I didn't get it. I don't listen to your... Yeah, I'm sorry. 00:06:00.924 --> 00:06:05.504 But you started in the musical domain as an accomplished pianist, 00:06:05.604 --> 00:06:08.804 right? And then you also became a conductor. 00:06:09.024 --> 00:06:13.064 You moved to interactive music systems. You are also a composer. 00:06:13.744 --> 00:06:16.684 So there's a very broad set of experiences you have there, right? 00:06:17.124 --> 00:06:23.464 And in parallel, you are also a mathematician and you're teaching a number of 00:06:23.464 --> 00:06:25.004 courses in that domain, right? 00:06:25.064 --> 00:06:27.924 So you have always been balancing these two experiences. 00:06:28.724 --> 00:06:35.104 Now, in that context, so given that, how would you define collaboration? 00:06:35.244 --> 00:06:37.704 What is collaboration and what is it good for? 00:06:39.100 --> 00:06:47.940 I think I have two words to define collaboration. Dialogue and good heart. Okay. 00:06:49.020 --> 00:06:54.940 Two, okay. It's three, okay. But good heart is, oh, try to understand the other. 00:06:55.380 --> 00:07:03.220 I think it's about to listen to people. Collaboration is more than trying to make people do things. 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:10.380 Collaboration is about to make people talk. And also it's more about to listen 00:07:10.380 --> 00:07:16.920 to people than, let's say, try to make them develop something. 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:22.260 Can I ask a follow-up question to that first? 00:07:23.260 --> 00:07:27.860 I want to go back just a step before I get to this point right here. 00:07:27.960 --> 00:07:34.540 And that is you describe composing or compositions as being the interpretation of something. 00:07:34.540 --> 00:07:39.560 So if we take an example like the Rite of Spring, Stravinsky would have taken 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:45.900 the creation or the evolution and interpreted it in this musical composition. 00:07:46.200 --> 00:07:47.860 Am I understanding you correctly? 00:07:48.400 --> 00:07:53.940 Exactly. And of course. First, please, Julia, go. 00:07:54.020 --> 00:08:03.260 So as a composer, you try to create a dialogue with the listener in as much 00:08:03.260 --> 00:08:07.260 as you're trying to project a concept, 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:12.600 you're trying to interpret a concept and give it to the listener for that listener 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:17.400 to take it up and understand as he or she would understand the concept. 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:20.100 Is that your goal as a composer? 00:08:21.213 --> 00:08:27.373 I think my goal as a composer is to give them the opportunity to make their own interpretation. 00:08:27.793 --> 00:08:33.733 I don't think my personal interpretation is the main task of a composer. 00:08:33.773 --> 00:08:36.573 It's my opinion, the main task of a composer. 00:08:36.793 --> 00:08:43.073 A composer is, let's say, if he's responsible, he is a person that opens a door 00:08:43.073 --> 00:08:45.173 for other people's interpretation. 00:08:45.173 --> 00:08:51.393 Of course, if Stravinsky let's take another model of creation or let's take 00:08:51.393 --> 00:08:59.853 another thing in his worldview, his music is going to be a little bit different. Of course it will be. 00:09:00.033 --> 00:09:06.293 But on the other hand, the way people take Stravinsky music and share, 00:09:06.533 --> 00:09:08.413 let's say, emotionally, 00:09:08.733 --> 00:09:13.553 and also combine the ideas of Stravinsky with their own ideas, 00:09:13.753 --> 00:09:15.433 I think it's a matter of art. 00:09:16.453 --> 00:09:21.013 I think, at least for me, it's a matter of composition. 00:09:21.773 --> 00:09:28.473 So I want to understand something here, right? I want to understand something. I'm not creating. 00:09:28.753 --> 00:09:31.393 Of course and and so what i 00:09:31.393 --> 00:09:35.693 tried to now now we now we're on the track of the composer okay so the composer 00:09:35.693 --> 00:09:42.013 now the composer tries to also orchestrate or define a form of collaboration 00:09:42.013 --> 00:09:49.053 so what is it what are you exactly defining among all these agents that you're trying to now. 00:09:50.253 --> 00:09:55.273 Proactively control how do you structure that what's happening i think it's 00:09:55.273 --> 00:09:57.573 a very complex kind of collaboration. 00:09:57.813 --> 00:10:01.153 Let's take a piece of music. Let's take Stravinsky again. 00:10:01.793 --> 00:10:07.753 Imagine, you have to collaborate with the orchestra. You have to collaborate with the conductor. 00:10:08.333 --> 00:10:10.613 Okay, this is in a technical level. 00:10:11.353 --> 00:10:14.473 And there are composers that maybe they say, okay, it's enough. 00:10:15.677 --> 00:10:21.917 Let's say if the orchestra and the conductor understand my score, my function is done. 00:10:22.857 --> 00:10:27.337 It's not what I think. I think it's partially done. 00:10:27.817 --> 00:10:32.577 Because there's another collaboration that is the collaboration of the meaning 00:10:32.577 --> 00:10:35.097 that I'm sharing with people. 00:10:35.577 --> 00:10:40.817 And this is a spontaneous thing that comes from me, comes from my music, 00:10:40.817 --> 00:10:46.277 comes from my score and goes to people. Okay, but let's first look at the technical part, okay? 00:10:46.937 --> 00:10:51.257 Okay. The technical part, because now you use a notation system. 00:10:51.457 --> 00:10:58.477 You use a notation system to, if you want, program future actions of a bunch 00:10:58.477 --> 00:11:01.277 of agents in the orchestra and the conductor. 00:11:02.557 --> 00:11:08.697 So technically, how do you structure that? What are the key ingredients of that 00:11:08.697 --> 00:11:12.717 algorithm, if you want, to make that composition work? 00:11:13.297 --> 00:11:18.757 You know that I work with algorithmic composition. Yeah, that's why I thought I would... 00:11:19.537 --> 00:11:25.417 But I'm not going to answer you in this way. Look, I'm trying. Of course. 00:11:26.697 --> 00:11:32.877 What I want to tell you is that somehow there are rules, of course. 00:11:33.057 --> 00:11:36.457 There are ways of organization and also we 00:11:36.457 --> 00:11:39.437 know that for many times we 00:11:39.437 --> 00:11:42.977 say music is organized sounds you 00:11:42.977 --> 00:11:49.857 know but the point is the organization can be done in many levels of course 00:11:49.857 --> 00:11:57.157 one level is the level of the way you write music okay you have a symbolic notation 00:11:57.157 --> 00:12:01.877 that many people understand and around this symbolic notation, 00:12:02.237 --> 00:12:08.197 people can produce and make it one of interpretation of music. This is one level. 00:12:08.537 --> 00:12:16.077 The second level is the way the sound is linked to the symbolic score. 00:12:16.777 --> 00:12:23.837 So that means, I go in the way of work, but because this sound is not always 00:12:23.837 --> 00:12:28.657 what is written in the score, People say, why not? Of course it's not. 00:12:29.077 --> 00:12:32.377 Because the instruments, they have different shapes. 00:12:32.737 --> 00:12:37.217 It's very complex. And the people playing one instrument is different from the 00:12:37.217 --> 00:12:40.577 other. So I have this second level, the level of the sound. 00:12:41.197 --> 00:12:45.657 And I have the third level that I would say the emotional level, 00:12:45.697 --> 00:12:51.557 or the level of the relationship between these two with the audience and with 00:12:51.557 --> 00:12:56.037 myself and with the social relationship. 00:12:56.477 --> 00:13:02.237 So my research for many years and now I think. 00:13:03.128 --> 00:13:10.748 Consists of trying to understand the symbolic notation, and for that I work with parameters. 00:13:11.228 --> 00:13:15.308 So I represent the symbolic notation, mathematical parameters, 00:13:15.548 --> 00:13:20.468 and I work with computers to produce some score. This is one level. 00:13:21.268 --> 00:13:24.428 And I had this experience in Ada. 00:13:24.768 --> 00:13:29.928 When you put there the machines producing sounds and people start to react, 00:13:30.188 --> 00:13:33.108 we have these two second levels because Because the sound itself, 00:13:33.448 --> 00:13:37.228 it's not what you write, but it's what people listen to. 00:13:37.648 --> 00:13:40.348 So you have to do research in perception. 00:13:41.148 --> 00:13:46.788 I understand. But before we go there, Jonathan, in structuring your score, right? 00:13:46.848 --> 00:13:49.488 So for instance, recently, I think you finished, you wrote an opera, 00:13:49.668 --> 00:13:50.848 right? Recently, you wrote an opera. 00:13:51.348 --> 00:13:54.668 So in structuring your score, you 00:13:54.668 --> 00:13:58.328 want to make sure that all the future 00:13:58.328 --> 00:14:01.248 orchestra members and the choir and so on 00:14:01.248 --> 00:14:04.428 collaborate together to realize 00:14:04.428 --> 00:14:08.508 what you intend they realize so do 00:14:08.508 --> 00:14:13.208 you that's one level no no that's one level but still just at that level do 00:14:13.208 --> 00:14:17.928 you structure this around a goal for do you give them a goal do you declare 00:14:17.928 --> 00:14:23.268 a goal or is it more microscopic in the way you work with them. 00:14:23.428 --> 00:14:25.368 Okay, I got to your question. 00:14:25.828 --> 00:14:33.048 I think I have, for orchestration, I'm teaching orchestration for many years, 00:14:33.048 --> 00:14:37.328 and I always say to my students that orchestration is architecture. 00:14:38.957 --> 00:14:44.657 So, how you work in orchestration, you think about the building when people 00:14:44.657 --> 00:14:48.157 are going to live, or the building when people are going to listen to music. 00:14:48.317 --> 00:14:54.497 So, you have many layers of the orchestra, the instruments, you have the layer of the notes. 00:14:54.817 --> 00:15:01.397 But how it comes to you, how it comes to you, how do you start to work with that? 00:15:01.397 --> 00:15:10.797 I think the best thing I gave to my students is that you should have a holistic 00:15:10.797 --> 00:15:14.097 idea, a general idea of the concept. 00:15:14.877 --> 00:15:21.197 Because if you don't have this general idea, you go to the details and your 00:15:21.197 --> 00:15:23.757 composition does not survive. 00:15:24.897 --> 00:15:28.657 I understand. How this general idea comes to you? 00:15:29.337 --> 00:15:33.977 Many ways. Anyways, for me, for example, I'm very visual. 00:15:34.197 --> 00:15:37.477 So sometimes I have visual ideas. 00:15:37.737 --> 00:15:43.537 And for me, and I think we should do research on that, I think all persons, 00:15:43.777 --> 00:15:45.317 all people are synesthetic. 00:15:45.997 --> 00:15:51.597 What I mean by that, so when I listen to a sound, it comes to me with images. 00:15:51.997 --> 00:15:56.297 But I don't think it's only to me, it's for everybody. body because I think 00:15:56.297 --> 00:16:02.197 we have a big confusion when we talk about organization of sounds that we talk 00:16:02.197 --> 00:16:05.197 only about the level of the writing. 00:16:05.977 --> 00:16:12.857 Okay but are you saying that then in developing a piece. 00:16:14.381 --> 00:16:18.701 Driven by an image you have, you try to get that image in the head of everyone 00:16:18.701 --> 00:16:20.041 who has to realize that piece. 00:16:20.821 --> 00:16:26.021 Not that image, but that image might drive other people's image. 00:16:26.261 --> 00:16:28.661 The point is that I'm not the composer. 00:16:29.101 --> 00:16:32.761 You know that idea of the romantic composer. 00:16:33.041 --> 00:16:38.381 I don't like this idea that the romantic composer is a superhero that is a genius 00:16:38.381 --> 00:16:44.581 and what is inside his brain or his mind goes to everybody and his has to be 00:16:44.581 --> 00:16:48.381 immortal because this is going to be forever. I don't believe on that. 00:16:48.881 --> 00:16:55.261 Is it correct to say, going back to your original discussion of dialogue, 00:16:55.481 --> 00:17:00.421 social relationship, that as a composer you're trying to create a dialogue and 00:17:00.421 --> 00:17:03.601 this is the collaboration, you're giving ideas to, 00:17:04.221 --> 00:17:07.201 spark an exchange. 00:17:07.921 --> 00:17:13.121 And also people after the concert or the The musicians, when we do the rehearsal, 00:17:13.461 --> 00:17:17.561 and my students, everybody, they give feedback to me. 00:17:17.781 --> 00:17:24.441 I think it's not about to impose an idea, but it's about to drive a pendulum. 00:17:26.201 --> 00:17:31.661 The pendulum, you know, the pendulum comes to me, goes to you, and comes back. 00:17:31.801 --> 00:17:38.721 You have this feedback. And for me, the better way of describing how it's driving 00:17:38.721 --> 00:17:42.181 ideas is somehow like a self-organized system. 00:17:43.881 --> 00:17:48.221 Yeah, but that's a tricky one, right? Because what does it mean? Yes, of course. 00:17:49.021 --> 00:17:52.621 And also still, as a composer, you are writing your score. 00:17:52.901 --> 00:17:57.081 So, for instance, in the piece, in the orchestra, you might want to have the 00:17:57.081 --> 00:18:00.821 strings to sort of interact with the wind instruments in some way. 00:18:00.821 --> 00:18:04.841 So you want them to collaborate so how do you implement that then, 00:18:05.481 --> 00:18:11.161 as your component piece I know I write there the score and ask people to play 00:18:11.161 --> 00:18:16.241 what I wrote but what I try to say in the level of the symbolic score the symbolic 00:18:16.241 --> 00:18:22.441 score is not enough to do it but I'm trying to force, 00:18:23.341 --> 00:18:25.921 you to say in some sense is what's 00:18:25.921 --> 00:18:29.141 really that architecture what's that building what are the structural. 00:18:30.721 --> 00:18:36.641 How the ideas are driven in a piece of music, as I told you previously, 00:18:36.881 --> 00:18:40.761 we have the symbolic notation. This is one layer, okay? 00:18:41.856 --> 00:18:46.196 This and if i work with notation 00:18:46.196 --> 00:18:49.636 in that layer this layer is for 400 years 00:18:49.636 --> 00:18:55.716 uh let's say in the hands of the composers we learn how to use it so in that 00:18:55.716 --> 00:19:02.676 layer i of course i customize my ideas in in details i give to the flute the 00:19:02.676 --> 00:19:07.176 notes the flute has to play i give to the clarinet the the notes, 00:19:07.296 --> 00:19:08.636 I have the articulation, 00:19:09.036 --> 00:19:14.716 I describe also the way they have to do in terms of dynamics, 00:19:14.876 --> 00:19:20.916 and also I give some guides in the rehearsal time to the conductor. 00:19:21.256 --> 00:19:25.816 So this is one level. I call this level of symbolic communication. 00:19:26.356 --> 00:19:33.796 Let's describe symbolic to me is based on a notation. Okay, when the rehearsal 00:19:33.796 --> 00:19:38.236 starts, the orchestra starts, many other things come out. 00:19:38.596 --> 00:19:42.236 One of the things is not only about the score. 00:19:42.976 --> 00:19:48.336 It's about the position where the musician is sitting, the relation with the sound. 00:19:48.576 --> 00:19:56.896 And so this realm of complex relationships also are there in the orchestra. 00:19:56.896 --> 00:19:59.776 Orchestra so in that sense i call the second 00:19:59.776 --> 00:20:02.776 layer the layer of the sound i'll say 00:20:02.776 --> 00:20:05.956 the layer when people because the orchestra has to 00:20:05.956 --> 00:20:08.696 build a sound for my music or for 00:20:08.696 --> 00:20:13.956 any music of anybody so it's one point that people don't know and people that 00:20:13.956 --> 00:20:19.416 has this misunderstand the function of the conductor my god the conductor is 00:20:19.416 --> 00:20:27.896 there really to help the orchestra to build this sound it's very special and he's not sorry. 00:20:28.756 --> 00:20:31.756 Could I ask if I'm interpreting you correctly 00:20:31.756 --> 00:20:34.556 in going back to Paul's question of wanting 00:20:34.556 --> 00:20:41.276 an architecture you're saying that the score your composition is the framework 00:20:41.276 --> 00:20:47.736 for the collaboration among the people involved among the orchestra but also 00:20:47.736 --> 00:20:53.316 probably including the people who are listening to it the score itself sets 00:20:53.596 --> 00:20:56.336 up an interaction, 00:20:56.696 --> 00:20:59.056 first among the musicians, 00:21:00.096 --> 00:21:04.276 and then further out in how it's interpreted by the listeners. 00:21:06.622 --> 00:21:11.182 I think I couldn't describe better the idea of framework. 00:21:11.682 --> 00:21:16.702 Thank you very much. And that, but the point is that, the point is, 00:21:16.722 --> 00:21:18.182 since it's the framework, 00:21:18.882 --> 00:21:24.222 and many times when do collaboration, we understand the framework or is the 00:21:24.222 --> 00:21:27.882 rule where people has to behave very much, 00:21:28.762 --> 00:21:31.762 let's say, in a very strict way. 00:21:32.262 --> 00:21:36.702 And I think, I think, of course, the musicians, they have their freedom to do 00:21:36.702 --> 00:21:39.722 interpretation, even in a big orchestra. 00:21:40.342 --> 00:21:48.582 But, Jonathan, now I might annoy you because I could now say your description, 00:21:48.762 --> 00:21:55.902 in some sense, has still turned all the agents in the system downstream in automata. 00:21:57.002 --> 00:22:01.562 No, not at all. I have not understood. I have not said that. 00:22:01.562 --> 00:22:05.442 How did you orchestrate their collaboration? 00:22:06.022 --> 00:22:09.522 What makes it collaborative, what they do? That's the point. 00:22:09.642 --> 00:22:14.882 I think sometimes there are people that believe that the conductor is a kind 00:22:14.882 --> 00:22:22.422 of king or rector or ship, and people do everything he or she says. 00:22:22.422 --> 00:22:28.302 I think if it happens, the music is going, there's no expression. 00:22:28.622 --> 00:22:33.122 The point in the orchestra is that we're going to stay forever in the orchestra. 00:22:33.222 --> 00:22:35.822 The orchestra, for me, is a good example of collaboration. 00:22:36.302 --> 00:22:43.342 It's because it's a kind of framework where you have to have a kind of tolerance. 00:22:44.322 --> 00:22:51.462 Let's talk between the collaborators, the musicians, the conductor, 00:22:51.642 --> 00:22:55.022 and the collaboration with the composer that maybe is not there. 00:22:55.202 --> 00:23:02.502 But he produced the score, he gave guides for them, and in a way, 00:23:02.602 --> 00:23:08.282 you have to respect the score as much as you respect yourself, 00:23:08.802 --> 00:23:14.542 and it's a good example because how people work together in an orchestra is 00:23:14.542 --> 00:23:20.262 every person, each person has a unique way of performing instruments. 00:23:22.061 --> 00:23:29.261 Even if it is a kind of, let's say, very uniform orchestra where the sound sounds 00:23:29.261 --> 00:23:34.201 beautiful, you know, this big orchestra in Europe, for example. 00:23:34.561 --> 00:23:40.161 So even that, you have this small collaboration of everybody. 00:23:40.161 --> 00:23:43.741 Body so my point is that if they 00:23:43.741 --> 00:23:47.201 all have to collaborate if they are a 00:23:47.201 --> 00:23:50.061 kind of automata there is no 00:23:50.061 --> 00:23:57.801 there wouldn't be any kind of meaning really no meaning because let me finish 00:23:57.801 --> 00:24:00.201 the meaning comes from this small 00:24:00.201 --> 00:24:07.441 variations that each person in his own interpretation give for the sound, 00:24:07.581 --> 00:24:11.201 and give for the framework that the composer proposed. 00:24:12.381 --> 00:24:17.521 And in that sense, it's a very good example of synergy. Okay, 00:24:17.601 --> 00:24:19.561 but then what makes that collaborative, Jonatas? 00:24:21.881 --> 00:24:25.621 Okay, that's another point. Well, that's the one I'm after. 00:24:26.041 --> 00:24:33.261 No, no, no, of course. I described how I believe the system behaves, or the system works. 00:24:33.261 --> 00:24:36.321 What makes them collaborative I think 00:24:36.321 --> 00:24:39.181 there are many ways there are good 00:24:39.181 --> 00:24:42.681 ones and there are bad ones maybe the salary or they 00:24:42.681 --> 00:24:49.501 are there of course but they are also but I think in my view when they are sitting 00:24:49.501 --> 00:24:55.021 and start to play there's a goal of making this piece of music as the better 00:24:55.021 --> 00:25:00.501 as they can they are there engaged for that so that means and. 00:25:01.824 --> 00:25:06.624 If they don't do individual collaboration, that means play what they have to 00:25:06.624 --> 00:25:10.044 play, but play what they have to play with their own interpretation. 00:25:10.464 --> 00:25:15.244 The whole system is not going to give that interpretation. 00:25:15.604 --> 00:25:26.484 As you say, for example, Stravinsky has been played many times. 00:25:26.564 --> 00:25:29.584 If you listen to one interpretation, you have to listen to another. other. 00:25:29.784 --> 00:25:34.824 So it's the same music, the framework is the same, but there are many, many variations. 00:25:35.104 --> 00:25:38.224 Where are these variations? 00:25:38.624 --> 00:25:44.024 Of course in the way the conductor gives cues for the musicians, 00:25:44.204 --> 00:25:46.604 but also in the collaboration of the orchestra. 00:25:47.084 --> 00:25:51.844 And also, and I'm sitting there in the audience and I have a new, 00:25:52.044 --> 00:25:57.024 I listen again Stravinsky again and I say, oh, this is a new interpretation. 00:25:57.544 --> 00:26:02.724 And this new interpretation gives a new meaning to me. So that means it's the end. 00:26:02.824 --> 00:26:08.844 I don't think it's the end, but it's the way that the music conveys meaning 00:26:08.844 --> 00:26:13.864 by sharing the dialogue with the composer. 00:26:14.784 --> 00:26:18.184 With the musician, and with the audience. 00:26:18.884 --> 00:26:25.044 The dialogue and the social interaction among the... Social interaction. 00:26:25.044 --> 00:26:30.624 Technical one, technical one, that there are only people that has the technology, 00:26:30.984 --> 00:26:33.684 but there are many others. 00:26:35.844 --> 00:26:42.684 I'm taking another example a little bit out of the, let's say, the orchestra. 00:26:42.884 --> 00:26:46.124 Let's take, for example, the example of Steve Reich. 00:26:46.424 --> 00:26:51.984 When he was there in Africa, tried to study how people do music. 00:26:52.724 --> 00:26:58.684 So he established some relations with his approach for minimal music. 00:26:58.864 --> 00:27:07.744 So suddenly he realized that there are people playing music and they play together 00:27:07.744 --> 00:27:09.524 and there's no conductor, 00:27:09.784 --> 00:27:16.784 there's no composer, but the music sounds very pleasant, very complex and immense interesting. 00:27:19.649 --> 00:27:25.549 What's the difference? Okay, for me, it's that the level of the interaction 00:27:25.549 --> 00:27:32.369 among the religion, the social relationship between them is very high, 00:27:33.509 --> 00:27:40.809 and they produce music because they listen to the other, and they have more 00:27:40.809 --> 00:27:44.229 freedom individually to add something. 00:27:44.389 --> 00:27:47.629 Of course, in the orchestra, let's go back to the orchestra. 00:27:47.629 --> 00:27:55.309 I think in the orchestra, the individuality has less importance, but it's still there. 00:27:55.409 --> 00:28:03.309 But there, in a ritual, when they do music, the individuality has more importance. 00:28:03.509 --> 00:28:07.589 But for me, both models are interesting. 00:28:07.869 --> 00:28:17.289 In one, you have the score that's the framework to give the opportunity to people to perform. 00:28:17.629 --> 00:28:23.309 And the other one, you have a kind of social relationship and kind of ritual 00:28:23.309 --> 00:28:26.989 that puts everybody together and tries to play music. 00:28:28.289 --> 00:28:34.129 Can you explain then, in these two situations you now describe, 00:28:34.629 --> 00:28:38.749 what's the role of something like trust? 00:28:38.809 --> 00:28:42.049 Or is there a role of something like trust in that? 00:28:42.849 --> 00:28:45.629 Many. I think this is a good word. 00:28:46.569 --> 00:28:50.949 Because what I mean by trust, and I don't know what you mean by trust, 00:28:51.029 --> 00:28:53.469 but what I mean by trust is not to believe in you. 00:28:53.969 --> 00:29:01.729 I mean by trust is that I give to you the opportunity to give something to me 00:29:01.729 --> 00:29:04.889 that please me. This is trust to me. 00:29:06.009 --> 00:29:11.509 It's not give you and say, I believe in you and I do to you. 00:29:11.689 --> 00:29:16.769 I believe in God, So I'm going to do everything God tells me. No, I'm not saying that. 00:29:16.869 --> 00:29:20.929 I say, if something comes to me that pleases me, and I trust that comes from 00:29:20.929 --> 00:29:26.969 you, I think trust is this pleasure to, not to serve, but this pleasure of staying 00:29:26.969 --> 00:29:30.209 together and amplify this. 00:29:30.409 --> 00:29:34.689 And trust has to be between the conductor and the musicians. 00:29:34.809 --> 00:29:38.529 And in another situation, Africa, the trust between them. 00:29:38.809 --> 00:29:41.849 They are, and it makes a community. minutes. 00:29:42.269 --> 00:29:48.829 So I don't know. How do you, how do you, if you want to orchestrate that as, 00:29:48.909 --> 00:29:53.049 as a conductor or as a composer or as an instrumentalist? 00:29:55.163 --> 00:29:59.163 But the point is that there are situations when they need to compose. 00:29:59.423 --> 00:30:01.383 There are other situations they don't need. 00:30:01.963 --> 00:30:05.143 So let's take again this Reich example. 00:30:05.423 --> 00:30:12.003 After being there in Africa, he came back to New York and we wrote, 00:30:12.163 --> 00:30:13.183 for example, clapping music. 00:30:13.423 --> 00:30:21.323 So he takes a little bit the structure, what he heard and he thought about the structure of the pulse. 00:30:22.503 --> 00:30:27.823 This post and rewrote it and he composed a piece of music in that sense the 00:30:27.823 --> 00:30:36.623 process the process that people are using there this composer make an abstraction and brought it in 00:30:36.883 --> 00:30:43.523 another framework there in africa the firm works not the score the firm work 00:30:43.523 --> 00:30:47.983 there is the the social relationship, and the word you said, the trust. 00:30:48.843 --> 00:30:53.683 And after that, when clapping music was performed many times, 00:30:53.923 --> 00:30:59.723 there's one layer that I call the symbolic notation, and the other layer is 00:30:59.723 --> 00:31:01.663 the way people play this chord. 00:31:01.983 --> 00:31:05.763 And here, there's one point that I think is important. 00:31:06.303 --> 00:31:12.583 The composer, sometimes, he's the person that brings this abstraction, 00:31:13.443 --> 00:31:20.543 like for this example to the framework, to the score he brings it but I don't 00:31:20.543 --> 00:31:21.883 think the score is enough. 00:31:22.943 --> 00:31:27.443 That's what I indeed wanted to understand because I could imagine that as you 00:31:27.443 --> 00:31:32.543 put a score together you put ingredients in there of for instance transiently 00:31:32.543 --> 00:31:34.763 entraining certain instruments, 00:31:35.803 --> 00:31:40.303 so in that sense you could also try to build up a trust relation because there 00:31:40.303 --> 00:31:43.383 is some reciprocal interaction between them. 00:31:43.583 --> 00:31:49.923 Is that the case? Would you use elements of that kind to construct trust? 00:31:50.843 --> 00:32:01.983 Yes, I think so. I think this way, our talk goes in a very good direction, 00:32:02.083 --> 00:32:05.483 the direction that I believe. Let's say clearly. 00:32:05.763 --> 00:32:10.623 For example, I worked at the Unicamp a symphony orchestra for many years. 00:32:10.743 --> 00:32:15.403 They have made many world premieres of works of mine. 00:32:15.643 --> 00:32:20.563 So let's talk about, for example, this couverture. That was an opera, okay? 00:32:20.783 --> 00:32:27.983 And I go to this kind of, I go to the trust, but I need a minute to explain. 00:32:28.243 --> 00:32:34.243 So in that opera, the idea was to celebrate the 15th anniversary of Unicamp. 00:32:34.243 --> 00:32:41.883 And also, I had the idea to convey with my music that celebration. 00:32:43.028 --> 00:32:48.728 One point that I start to think, it's I describe the history of somebody that's 00:32:48.728 --> 00:32:52.048 found the Unicamp or another big scientist. 00:32:52.308 --> 00:32:58.568 I'm not going to describe Unicamp history, but I'm going to describe somebody's 00:32:58.568 --> 00:33:02.528 history that's important to Unicamp. 00:33:02.528 --> 00:33:10.348 And after many times, I realized that the best to describe creation in Unicamp 00:33:10.348 --> 00:33:16.648 exactly is describe how people work when they are doing creation. 00:33:16.968 --> 00:33:23.128 So in that opera, Descoberta, there's no narrative. There's no character. 00:33:23.668 --> 00:33:27.068 There's only the process of creation 00:33:27.068 --> 00:33:31.708 and how I represent it because it's a metaphor for our discussion. 00:33:31.708 --> 00:33:39.068 I decided that I have a score, of course, but I need to have the collaboration 00:33:39.068 --> 00:33:41.808 of other people. I have dancers. 00:33:42.128 --> 00:33:46.848 Okay. I have a percussionist, a special group of percussion. 00:33:47.128 --> 00:33:53.788 I have the orchestra and I have a team of technicians that are going to build 00:33:53.788 --> 00:34:02.888 up the multimodal system that's going to amplify and describe the movement for the audience. 00:34:03.168 --> 00:34:10.208 So, when I have this big project, I have to combine the different levels of 00:34:10.208 --> 00:34:15.768 understanding between these different disciplines. 00:34:16.248 --> 00:34:25.148 For example, for the dancers, the time to make the choreography is much longer than for the musicians. 00:34:25.148 --> 00:34:35.108 For the production of the whole choreography, they took around six months, almost. 00:34:36.488 --> 00:34:46.928 And for the score for the orchestra, the research rehearsal was around 15 days, half a month. 00:34:47.745 --> 00:34:52.785 And for the percussionists, because there's a kind of special sounds, 00:34:53.145 --> 00:34:55.845 they expand a little around two months. 00:34:56.905 --> 00:35:03.005 So, and my question is, why for the same score, we have this difference between 00:35:03.005 --> 00:35:06.165 this time difference for the interpretation? 00:35:06.705 --> 00:35:13.005 Okay. For example, for the dancers, they have to learn with their bodies and 00:35:13.005 --> 00:35:15.345 make the expression in their bodies. 00:35:15.345 --> 00:35:18.325 There's no instrument and my score does 00:35:18.325 --> 00:35:21.185 not work for them as works for the 00:35:21.185 --> 00:35:24.345 musicians because for musicians they have 00:35:24.345 --> 00:35:27.265 a prescription of notes and the dancers 00:35:27.265 --> 00:35:31.185 they don't have any prescriptions prescription they 00:35:31.185 --> 00:35:38.725 have to build up the choreography uh step by step and and for for the percussionist 00:35:38.725 --> 00:35:43.065 they are they are combined these two levels because they they have the level 00:35:43.065 --> 00:35:48.585 of the body because I think percussion is one of the musical instruments that 00:35:48.585 --> 00:35:50.965 involves too much of the body. 00:35:51.085 --> 00:35:57.165 And also I put the instruments in the opera in many different places, 00:35:57.205 --> 00:36:01.065 in the percussion instrument, in many different places of the stage. 00:36:03.325 --> 00:36:09.945 But when I was developing this whole project, I had to trust Cinthia, 00:36:09.985 --> 00:36:13.965 that was the conductor, I have to trust Daniel, I have to trust Fernando, 00:36:14.185 --> 00:36:18.225 and also the technicians, but we are involved. 00:36:18.485 --> 00:36:25.745 And I think the most important factor that's make this project being a success, 00:36:26.425 --> 00:36:28.505 was for me, from my point of view, 00:36:29.489 --> 00:36:38.329 to understand the different time that people have to work and to collaborate between languages. 00:36:38.689 --> 00:36:47.829 For example, the musicians, with their protocol, they act a little bit fast, okay? 00:36:47.929 --> 00:36:51.949 But the dancers, they have to build up the protocol. 00:36:52.169 --> 00:36:54.609 And the percussionists, They are between them. 00:36:55.469 --> 00:37:00.989 And the score of this opera, it's there with the notes, okay? 00:37:01.769 --> 00:37:03.629 But it's not the choreography. 00:37:04.669 --> 00:37:08.029 And, of course, you have to talk about it. 00:37:08.249 --> 00:37:14.009 My question was, Jonathas, whether you then include in the composition elements 00:37:14.009 --> 00:37:18.029 to instill trust and instill the collaboration. 00:37:18.249 --> 00:37:22.969 For instance, by building dialogues inside the piece. 00:37:23.649 --> 00:37:30.889 That's a good question. I decided to put some spice, let's call this spice. 00:37:31.289 --> 00:37:39.549 That's our moments of, let's say, I wouldn't say cues, because cues is too little. 00:37:39.549 --> 00:37:46.849 But there is a small space in the score that represents space for, 00:37:46.909 --> 00:37:51.369 I would say, kind of bifurcation. I'll give you an example. 00:37:53.089 --> 00:37:59.669 For example, when the orchestra is performing a piece of music, 00:37:59.869 --> 00:38:02.849 everybody is sitting there in the stage. 00:38:03.709 --> 00:38:09.669 And the public is sitting here and listening to that. We call this Italian theater 00:38:09.669 --> 00:38:17.629 for this opera, because I was describing I was interested in describing the creation process. 00:38:17.889 --> 00:38:20.589 I put some cues in this space. 00:38:21.909 --> 00:38:26.289 It's not only the position of the conductor, but the position of the dancers 00:38:26.289 --> 00:38:30.349 in this space that you give cues for interpretation. 00:38:31.409 --> 00:38:34.489 So this was prescribed on the score. 00:38:34.869 --> 00:38:40.929 There's a chance of that happening. But of course, the time when it happened 00:38:40.929 --> 00:38:45.449 and why it happens depends very much on the choreographer. 00:38:46.249 --> 00:38:50.749 And it's a little bit different from the musical score, because the musical 00:38:50.749 --> 00:38:54.409 score, the time when something is going to happen is there. 00:38:54.549 --> 00:39:01.789 You have the bar number, one number there, 20, 21, doesn't matter. 00:39:02.549 --> 00:39:06.489 But even there, when you have the time to produce something, 00:39:06.789 --> 00:39:17.769 you have a small chance of modulating for the dance when you add the space in their body, 00:39:17.909 --> 00:39:23.709 the tolerance of the score has to be larger. That's to be great. 00:39:23.989 --> 00:39:27.949 But Jonathan, I don't know if I'm answering your question. 00:39:28.069 --> 00:39:32.969 I think I make a lot of confusion, but let's try to combine this. 00:39:33.229 --> 00:39:37.809 It's because I'm working not only with musicians, I'm working with dancers, 00:39:37.969 --> 00:39:39.109 and I'm working with engineering, 00:39:39.609 --> 00:39:45.789 I try to tell you that the trust not only depends on the score and the frameworks, 00:39:45.969 --> 00:39:56.189 depends also the level of response each element of the system has to the stimulus. 00:39:57.289 --> 00:40:03.109 And depends the way their work mind. 00:40:06.462 --> 00:40:09.902 And the way they take the project. 00:40:10.742 --> 00:40:14.742 In engineering, in the opera, it takes the project in one way, 00:40:14.802 --> 00:40:17.462 the dancer in another way, and the musician in another way. 00:40:17.982 --> 00:40:23.802 So that means to make it possible to do this collaboration, we have to respect 00:40:23.802 --> 00:40:29.682 that level of acquisition of knowledge and also in producing results. 00:40:30.322 --> 00:40:34.742 If you have a group with many different kinds, not only people, 00:40:34.962 --> 00:40:37.022 but with different kinds of approach. 00:40:37.302 --> 00:40:41.262 You have to respect these as well. I understand, I think. 00:40:41.502 --> 00:40:48.722 But now you gave this one example, right, for this complex piece you put together. 00:40:49.602 --> 00:40:54.642 But can you give an example of other experiments you've done, 00:40:55.482 --> 00:41:00.062 also composing a piece, conducting a piece, where it just didn't work, 00:41:00.262 --> 00:41:06.982 where it really failed, where this creative collaboration does really not come off the ground? 00:41:07.482 --> 00:41:09.302 What's failure in that case? 00:41:10.342 --> 00:41:13.502 I love this too much. I don't know what to think about. 00:41:13.882 --> 00:41:19.982 Let me think about it. Maybe I'll give an example. I remember. 00:41:20.522 --> 00:41:31.022 So I wrote a piece of music for percussion and string quartet, okay? And. 00:41:32.901 --> 00:41:37.801 My mistake was to think that the sound, 00:41:38.141 --> 00:41:44.401 the way I was going to prescribe the sound on the score, the string for the 00:41:44.401 --> 00:41:49.521 performer, it would sound like, for example, the sounds of the percussion. 00:41:49.521 --> 00:41:59.641 My mental goal was to make the string orchestra become a kind of percussion 00:41:59.641 --> 00:42:03.461 orchestra and the percussion instrument become a string. 00:42:03.781 --> 00:42:07.421 I tried to invert the function. 00:42:08.321 --> 00:42:11.121 And what happened? I was there with the conductor. 00:42:11.341 --> 00:42:17.081 I explained to them the idea, but they don't get it. Not get it. 00:42:17.161 --> 00:42:29.441 Maybe they don't like it. And they said, no, the strings are not rough like you want that we play, 00:42:29.601 --> 00:42:33.281 because I want them to make very close to rock. 00:42:34.301 --> 00:42:40.101 And I pushed them to say, you have to take the taché, not, you have to do this 00:42:40.101 --> 00:42:45.461 very rough, and change the way you do the interpretation of the string instrument. 00:42:45.461 --> 00:42:49.861 And I asked the percussionist, when you play the... 00:42:50.741 --> 00:42:56.321 I asked them to play a vibraphone, play this... And he's going to play the vibraphone 00:42:56.321 --> 00:43:02.141 with the bow as one string instrument. Play, this is very soft. 00:43:02.601 --> 00:43:07.461 It sounds like a string. 00:43:08.101 --> 00:43:10.541 So the point is, I think... 00:43:11.301 --> 00:43:17.241 I like my project, But when I came in front of the orchestra and described to them my proposal, 00:43:17.541 --> 00:43:23.241 they said, no, it's impossible because you change too much the function of the 00:43:23.241 --> 00:43:27.761 instrumentation in the traditional way. 00:43:27.861 --> 00:43:32.141 You want to make us to do what we don't think, we don't believe, 00:43:32.261 --> 00:43:34.181 we don't trust in that idea. 00:43:34.681 --> 00:43:37.501 But then, how I say, but this is the answer. 00:43:38.105 --> 00:43:43.005 It's very interesting because when you're in the audience, 00:43:43.505 --> 00:43:48.825 you often at any performance, whether it's a classical music concert or a vanguard 00:43:48.825 --> 00:43:54.565 dance company, you have the sensation or the understanding that everything is 00:43:54.565 --> 00:43:55.725 hierarchically structured. 00:43:55.725 --> 00:44:01.625 But what you have just portrayed is this dialogue between conductor and the 00:44:01.625 --> 00:44:03.765 various people who are involved in it. 00:44:04.685 --> 00:44:10.745 When it breaks down, you have a problem. When the dialogue is good and there's 00:44:10.745 --> 00:44:18.125 an understanding or a cooperation between an understanding of what the framework is supposed to project, 00:44:18.285 --> 00:44:23.665 then you get the individuals collaborating with each other to meet the goal of the music. 00:44:23.705 --> 00:44:26.185 Is that correct in my interpretation? Yes, that's correct. 00:44:26.365 --> 00:44:31.145 But I think it's more frequently, and it's because I work more frequently in 00:44:31.145 --> 00:44:32.565 new music. I'm a composer. 00:44:33.425 --> 00:44:39.685 I'm making new proposals. That means if you take an interpretation of Mozart, 00:44:39.905 --> 00:44:43.905 maybe the framework is more stable. 00:44:44.245 --> 00:44:46.025 People, they have some reference. 00:44:46.405 --> 00:44:51.245 Even they play Mozart for many years and they have many ideas. 00:44:51.245 --> 00:44:55.905 And the conductors say, how about bar number 55? 00:44:56.905 --> 00:45:03.305 You do a small conlang or whatever. And they know that because they played their entire life this music. 00:45:03.625 --> 00:45:11.025 When you come to orchestra with new music, OK, you have the framework. 00:45:11.925 --> 00:45:16.185 You have the people's life, the way they believe music is. 00:45:16.405 --> 00:45:19.445 You have your belief. And it's really matter. 00:45:19.445 --> 00:45:23.325 It's really important that the score tells 00:45:23.325 --> 00:45:30.405 them something but the score it's not able to tell everything because it's new 00:45:30.405 --> 00:45:37.305 music there are things there in the score that was not prescribed but now Jonathan 00:45:37.305 --> 00:45:40.785 you have to work together and that, 00:45:41.605 --> 00:45:48.365 sort of bit that is not described then is moved forward on the basis of trust. 00:45:49.565 --> 00:45:52.825 For sure okay for sure but now you also 00:45:52.825 --> 00:45:58.685 said that in your experiment to do the the string percussion inversion that 00:45:58.685 --> 00:46:04.585 didn't work out because you were too far beyond people's expectations right 00:46:04.585 --> 00:46:12.485 so would this mean that also within a piece and within the way an orchestra might perform a peace, 00:46:12.505 --> 00:46:19.025 if there are events that are too far out of this proximal zone of expectation, 00:46:19.625 --> 00:46:22.965 the peace collapses. Does that happen? 00:46:24.188 --> 00:46:30.448 Yes, but that's the big, big, big challenge of in writing contemporary music. 00:46:31.368 --> 00:46:35.228 So, and could collapse. I'm going to give an example. 00:46:35.648 --> 00:46:39.728 I don't know if it's for you, that's it. There's a Brazilian composer I'm not 00:46:39.728 --> 00:46:42.288 going to mention because... Jonatas Manzoli. 00:46:42.928 --> 00:46:47.948 No, okay, let's say Jonatas Manzoli, no problem. And he went to a very important 00:46:47.948 --> 00:46:53.308 festival in Brazil, and he came with a score that was a ball, 00:46:53.588 --> 00:46:56.908 a crystal ball, like it have notes there inside. 00:46:57.828 --> 00:47:05.828 And he asked people to make an interpretation of that ball, that it would be the score, okay? 00:47:06.888 --> 00:47:12.288 But before he start to perform the music, because the orchestra was not so keen 00:47:12.288 --> 00:47:15.808 about that, they make an agreement. 00:47:15.808 --> 00:47:24.808 Agreement, we are going to play only B flat because they are free to play what they see in the ball. 00:47:24.988 --> 00:47:30.968 And they came to the concert and when that part where they have freedom, they play the same note. 00:47:31.148 --> 00:47:38.228 That's completely not what the composer wants, but they make this why they made it. 00:47:38.228 --> 00:47:47.008 Because they don't want to collaborate because the freedom that the composer gave to them, 00:47:47.168 --> 00:47:53.968 giving a score like a ball, and they have to see there's some notation and make their interpretation, 00:47:54.568 --> 00:48:00.188 they don't take it as for good because they don't trust that kind of freedom 00:48:00.188 --> 00:48:01.648 that the composer gave to them. 00:48:03.028 --> 00:48:10.268 I don't know if it's a good example. It reminds me of an example that I give to my students in class. 00:48:11.188 --> 00:48:18.348 And there came another point here. How they score is very important. 00:48:18.488 --> 00:48:22.848 How they score is good for giving cues. 00:48:26.143 --> 00:48:30.963 I said, it looks like I do everything I don't care. I care very much. 00:48:31.083 --> 00:48:33.323 And how the score is good to give cues. 00:48:33.543 --> 00:48:40.583 For example, if some student come to me and say, Professor, I want to make a graphic score. 00:48:40.923 --> 00:48:45.323 I want to make a little ball. I always talk to them. 00:48:45.603 --> 00:48:53.723 I say, first question I ask them, what you intend and which sound do you want to produce? 00:48:54.663 --> 00:49:00.223 So, since you have this model, how the sound has to sound like, 00:49:00.443 --> 00:49:03.343 now we have to find a better way 00:49:03.343 --> 00:49:08.563 to communicate it to the orchestra and to communicate it to the musicians. 00:49:09.023 --> 00:49:13.063 And there's a second question that has to be asked. 00:49:13.643 --> 00:49:18.623 This piece is a solo piece, this piece is an orchestral piece, 00:49:18.783 --> 00:49:23.363 or this piece is a chamber music piece. It's very different. 00:49:23.523 --> 00:49:30.383 For example, if it's a soloist piece, you might invent something and you have 00:49:30.383 --> 00:49:36.883 an incredible soloist that he plays the violin here or in the back. 00:49:37.523 --> 00:49:41.123 It's a unique piece and you can put everything there. 00:49:42.303 --> 00:49:48.143 So you have many freedoms. If you go to chamber music, you have also freedom, 00:49:48.263 --> 00:49:53.423 but you have to deal with four, five, six, eight people. 00:49:53.643 --> 00:50:00.743 So the social relationship and the way they use to interpret the score take 00:50:00.743 --> 00:50:05.663 them a little bit more, let's say, freedom than, for example, 00:50:05.683 --> 00:50:06.763 when you go to orchestra. 00:50:07.583 --> 00:50:14.323 So, and when I shouldn't come to me and say, I'm going to write a piece for orchestral piece, 00:50:14.543 --> 00:50:20.023 or I'm going to write a chamber music, we discuss about, I would say, 00:50:20.043 --> 00:50:23.723 the tolerance of your writing. 00:50:23.723 --> 00:50:27.263 Let's explain it. 00:50:27.363 --> 00:50:34.823 How good are the symbols and the way you write to convey your ideas? 00:50:35.123 --> 00:50:41.883 If it's chamber music, you can put extended techniques, you can explore many 00:50:41.883 --> 00:50:46.183 possibilities of the instrument, you can change the sound of the instruments. 00:50:46.183 --> 00:50:52.723 For example, if my piece for percussion and string instrument, 00:50:53.003 --> 00:50:58.483 and was what I did later, was for a string quartet and for a percussion, 00:50:59.103 --> 00:51:01.143 it didn't have a problem. 00:51:01.723 --> 00:51:07.783 Because a small group of four musicians, and I go there even close to them, 00:51:07.923 --> 00:51:13.523 I tell them, play in this way, and he's going to listen and realize that. 00:51:13.523 --> 00:51:19.543 But when I propose this for the whole orchestra, it's different. 00:51:19.883 --> 00:51:22.863 So that means the way you... 00:51:24.486 --> 00:51:30.766 You write, you communicate this score for a different kind of ensemble, 00:51:31.146 --> 00:51:32.866 it's also very important. 00:51:33.346 --> 00:51:40.946 And the same idea, same musical idea being performed by an orchestra, 00:51:41.306 --> 00:51:47.186 being performed by a chamber, chamber group, an ensemble, and being performed as a solo, 00:51:47.566 --> 00:51:53.286 it has to be, it has a a completely different representation in the score. 00:51:53.706 --> 00:52:04.366 So that means as I told you, even that, how do you, let's say, how do you drive it? 00:52:04.426 --> 00:52:08.426 How do you drive the response of the interpretation? 00:52:10.066 --> 00:52:14.766 So I think for soloists, it's very much in new music, talk to them. 00:52:15.326 --> 00:52:18.246 Really, talk to them. The composer has to talk to them. 00:52:18.246 --> 00:52:25.946 And also there are times when I'm writing new techniques that I call that person how about it, 00:52:27.406 --> 00:52:30.146 and we dialogue he said no it 00:52:30.146 --> 00:52:33.566 doesn't work if you go to a chamber so 00:52:33.566 --> 00:52:38.206 maybe you describe a little bit more people you talk to them but you don't have 00:52:38.206 --> 00:52:44.946 this really good relationship to follow up on this so now in some sense you 00:52:44.946 --> 00:52:50.846 are in this more or less comfortable zone where you as a human conductor or 00:52:50.846 --> 00:52:53.146 composer are interacting with other humans. 00:52:53.866 --> 00:52:57.846 But actually, you are also one of the pioneers of interactive music systems, 00:52:57.926 --> 00:53:01.646 with which you started in the early 90s or maybe even earlier, 00:53:01.846 --> 00:53:09.546 which in some sense forces you to formalize a lot of these ideas about musical 00:53:09.546 --> 00:53:15.946 collaboration now into an algorithm that actually is executed by a computer 00:53:15.946 --> 00:53:21.366 and maybe an interaction with other computers or other humans creates a piece of music, right? 00:53:21.486 --> 00:53:26.986 So how is that translation step then done from that perspective of collaboration? 00:53:29.546 --> 00:53:32.526 Wow, okay, thank you for that question. 00:53:32.786 --> 00:53:41.366 So when I started to work with algorithmic composition many years ago, before I started my PhD. 00:53:43.266 --> 00:53:53.526 Long ago. Yeah, my goal was to make a kind of automatic generative composition that using computer, 00:53:53.786 --> 00:54:00.806 it's going to represent completely my musical ideas with an algorithm with mathematical laws. 00:54:02.295 --> 00:54:05.695 Okay, I started to work on that was the start of my PhD. 00:54:05.975 --> 00:54:11.535 My goal was to use a nonlinear system in this whole complex. 00:54:12.215 --> 00:54:18.615 When I was doing the PhD in that moment, one question that came to me and that's 00:54:18.615 --> 00:54:23.275 making me change instead of working on algorithmic composition, 00:54:23.755 --> 00:54:27.295 I'm working interactive algorithmic composition. 00:54:27.975 --> 00:54:34.035 What's the difference? So when I start to work on that, and when I receive the 00:54:34.035 --> 00:54:36.195 response of the machine, 00:54:36.455 --> 00:54:44.755 of the parameters that was imposed to the computer, sometimes I'll say, okay, I am happy. 00:54:44.755 --> 00:54:48.295 But I said, but I'm not completely happy. 00:54:48.395 --> 00:54:52.755 Why am I not completely happy? Because I started to understand that that music 00:54:52.755 --> 00:55:00.335 that the computer is performing is an instantiation of many other music or many 00:55:00.335 --> 00:55:06.135 other ideas that it's conveying in my proposal. 00:55:07.215 --> 00:55:12.415 Let's be clear. When you work with a piece of art, you can paint, okay? 00:55:12.655 --> 00:55:21.415 But you have this concept, the general concept of that piece of art that you're going to make. 00:55:21.815 --> 00:55:26.715 So in algorithmic composition, from my perspective, when you finish and the 00:55:26.715 --> 00:55:32.675 computer generates that kind of music automatically, The machine is, 00:55:32.775 --> 00:55:42.675 let's say, is performed one small part of this whole concept that you parametrize, parametrize it. 00:55:42.835 --> 00:55:49.895 That means the math serves you to represent the idea in terms of parameters, 00:55:50.175 --> 00:55:54.455 but the math doesn't give you the whole interpretation. 00:55:55.575 --> 00:56:02.055 Because to make the algorithm, you have to reduce the complexity of your idea, 00:56:02.735 --> 00:56:09.415 because the numbers are not enough and your solo is not enough to represent everything. 00:56:10.155 --> 00:56:13.395 Yeah. And I was very frustrated. I said, oh my God. 00:56:13.675 --> 00:56:20.215 And I said, I'm not going to finish this PhD because I want, 00:56:20.495 --> 00:56:23.615 I'll go back to write music by hand, I said. 00:56:24.639 --> 00:56:31.439 And in that sense, I'm very thankful to my supervisor at the time, 00:56:31.499 --> 00:56:36.299 Jim Fulkerson, that was a composer that has worked with John Cage for many years. 00:56:36.659 --> 00:56:44.419 So he came to me and said, the problem is that you don't want to have an automatic, 00:56:44.959 --> 00:56:46.159 finished piece of music. 00:56:46.319 --> 00:56:49.539 You want to give space for interpretation. 00:56:50.059 --> 00:56:53.919 And the computer has to become part of the game. 00:56:54.059 --> 00:57:01.439 But the computer is not the guy that is going to perform exactly what you prescribe. 00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:07.999 And that makes the whole difference in my entire life. And we are talking here because of that. 00:57:08.199 --> 00:57:13.259 So when I realized that, I started to understand that sometimes, 00:57:14.039 --> 00:57:22.119 you can use the math and the algorithm to give boundaries of tolerance where 00:57:22.119 --> 00:57:26.939 some behaviors are allowed and other behaviors are not allowed. 00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:30.339 But you're not describing the behavior. 00:57:31.859 --> 00:57:35.979 And you give space for interaction. 00:57:36.579 --> 00:57:41.779 And after that, I started to work with me any kind of interaction. 00:57:42.019 --> 00:57:50.279 So in my PhD, for example, a long time ago, I developed a glove because also 00:57:50.279 --> 00:57:52.319 I was a conductor for many years. 00:57:52.439 --> 00:57:58.679 So I decided that the movement of my hands are going to give the variations 00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:04.579 inside that space of sounds. 00:58:05.299 --> 00:58:12.699 So that means the maths give me that space and I move my hands inside the space. 00:58:12.819 --> 00:58:13.999 Of course, I don't have numbers. 00:58:14.479 --> 00:58:19.719 I have only sounds. And that's another point that I would like to say, 00:58:19.799 --> 00:58:27.959 after having the representation in the algorithm, the task is not to put numbers again. 00:58:28.139 --> 00:58:34.219 The task is to make the sound as close as possible to your interpretation. 00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:40.019 So that means you come back to the level of instrumentation or performance. 00:58:42.019 --> 00:58:50.879 So this is now, you move towards interactive music system, but now you talk 00:58:50.879 --> 00:58:52.539 about interaction there, right? 00:58:52.579 --> 00:58:57.939 So what would distinguish interaction with an artificial music generating system 00:58:57.939 --> 00:59:00.699 and collaboration with that system? 00:59:02.233 --> 00:59:10.633 I think artificial system, I think I would say a machine or synthetic machine 00:59:10.633 --> 00:59:14.393 developed system, I would say that this is one thing. 00:59:16.133 --> 00:59:24.533 Many. I do synthetic system to make music, okay, but the point is there where 00:59:24.533 --> 00:59:27.513 you put the interest of your design. 00:59:28.213 --> 00:59:33.293 So I have to come to Ada, you know, to Robozer. 00:59:33.473 --> 00:59:37.193 So let's go to Robozer because it's the work we did together. 00:59:37.393 --> 00:59:45.113 So when we matched in the Robozer, I had this concept, I describe it now. 00:59:47.553 --> 00:59:52.173 Let's say in a system that I called Curvação in Portuguese. 00:59:52.373 --> 00:59:59.553 That means a curve that makes sound. That means I was looking for ways of drawing 00:59:59.553 --> 01:00:02.773 in this space of tolerance, 01:00:03.073 --> 01:00:11.573 of possible instantiations of music, exploration of that space, creative exploration. 01:00:12.233 --> 01:00:18.913 When I saw Kepera, the small robot, walking in the arena, 01:00:19.153 --> 01:00:26.133 and we are there discussing about if the robot is attracted or not for the lights and so on, 01:00:26.133 --> 01:00:34.313 What came to my mind is this path of exploration in the arena might be equivalent 01:00:34.313 --> 01:00:43.593 to the path that a composer who works in an interactive system might develop. 01:00:44.813 --> 01:00:53.313 So that means the small robot was not there to really perform the music in that 01:00:53.313 --> 01:00:54.793 sense of performing notes. 01:00:54.793 --> 01:01:01.073 The robot is there to collaborate with a behavior, 01:01:01.713 --> 01:01:09.313 a dynamic behavior, that will take out some change in some principles that was 01:01:09.313 --> 01:01:12.313 available in the system. 01:01:13.193 --> 01:01:18.033 So that means… It's a variability, right? 01:01:18.153 --> 01:01:25.153 Exactly. But what I was wondering about, if you would now look at the next step 01:01:25.153 --> 01:01:27.573 of such a music system, and it has to be collaborative, 01:01:28.153 --> 01:01:35.853 what features would you have to add to Roboser to make Roboser collaborative and not interactive? 01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:48.019 Yeah, I think the problem there at Roboz was that Roboz does not listen to the music it plays. 01:01:50.099 --> 01:01:57.479 And we have been working a lot about it. But what I mean by listen, that's a point, okay? 01:01:58.279 --> 01:02:02.199 In music, we talk about a lot of scuta, listen. 01:02:03.239 --> 01:02:09.639 And there are many layers of listening to things. Okay, listen to words, listen to music. 01:02:09.739 --> 01:02:14.719 But I think it's very special when you listen to music, because music is a very 01:02:14.719 --> 01:02:21.039 plastic material that penetrates our brain in many different layers. 01:02:22.059 --> 01:02:27.479 So that means if you define listen to music only in the acoustic level, it's one thing. 01:02:27.799 --> 01:02:34.159 And of course, listen to music can go in the acoustic level, 01:02:34.159 --> 01:02:39.739 and maybe it goes in the social level, go in, let's say, in psychological level. 01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:46.059 So, but going back to robozer, I think I would say that if you have built a 01:02:46.059 --> 01:02:52.819 feedback system that let the robozer to listen the sounds that is performed in the environment, 01:02:52.939 --> 01:02:55.939 it will improve the system. 01:02:56.099 --> 01:03:01.779 I think, of course, next week we try to do that in ADA. 01:03:01.779 --> 01:03:08.319 But also Ada, Ada performed music and we have many people interact with Ada, 01:03:08.479 --> 01:03:13.459 but Ada also, Ada was not listening to herself. 01:03:15.059 --> 01:03:19.959 Ada was trying to understand the behavior of people inside the room. 01:03:19.959 --> 01:03:28.559 But and also in the end that means why Ada or Roboza has to listen to the music 01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:35.019 they are performing because they need to have a pleasure also so if they have 01:03:35.019 --> 01:03:36.979 a pleasure to listen what they are. 01:03:38.269 --> 01:03:42.629 Performing, they would make change in the algorithm. 01:03:42.949 --> 01:03:48.489 Because the algorithm, not in the algorithm, they would make change in the possibilities 01:03:48.489 --> 01:03:52.369 the machine is exploring in this space. 01:03:52.449 --> 01:03:55.969 But then that would be your optimization objective, you're saying? 01:03:56.849 --> 01:04:01.589 I would say that today is what I'm working on. 01:04:01.929 --> 01:04:08.149 And so because of it, I'm working too much with dancers in this moment, 01:04:08.289 --> 01:04:13.489 because I think not because they listen to music better than musicians, 01:04:13.709 --> 01:04:14.729 it's not because of that. 01:04:14.989 --> 01:04:22.409 I think because also in modern dance, it's not ballet-like. 01:04:22.629 --> 01:04:31.769 So that means they have this possibility of adjusting, adjusting the sound, adjusting their body. 01:04:31.769 --> 01:04:38.789 And I think it's a good paradigm to that relationship between mind and body. 01:04:38.869 --> 01:04:44.869 And it's a good representation of embodiment or embodied cognition. 01:04:45.369 --> 01:04:49.769 But now, if we now step outside of this domain of music, right? 01:04:50.729 --> 01:04:57.189 So it's very advanced. You have a very deep understanding of how to structure 01:04:57.189 --> 01:05:02.329 collaboration there and how to produce beauty with that if you want. 01:05:03.229 --> 01:05:07.989 But let's now generalize that just the domain of human collaboration in general. 01:05:08.209 --> 01:05:12.409 So let's say you want to manage a big organization, right? 01:05:12.669 --> 01:05:15.689 So what lessons would you extract 01:05:15.689 --> 01:05:22.869 from that domain of music to structure collaboration in a big business? 01:05:25.249 --> 01:05:34.269 I think I would say that the rules are not for being perceived as a command. 01:05:34.589 --> 01:05:39.589 The rules are going to be perceived as a possibility of interpretation. 01:05:40.989 --> 01:05:44.269 So you are not there to receive commands. 01:05:44.569 --> 01:05:49.829 You are there to make an interpretation. So, secondly, if you are in charge 01:05:49.829 --> 01:05:55.349 of the whole community, you are not there to write the rules. 01:05:55.549 --> 01:06:05.289 You are there to collaborate in the structure of the rules, in the prescription of the rules. 01:06:05.629 --> 01:06:15.649 And second, I would try to make people believe that all kind of work is a kind of creative process. 01:06:16.729 --> 01:06:21.569 No matter, no matter what you do, no matter, it's a creative, 01:06:21.729 --> 01:06:23.569 you're doing a creation. 01:06:23.669 --> 01:06:30.009 So if somebody there in the chain of action doesn't feel good and doesn't feel 01:06:30.009 --> 01:06:33.669 creative in that work, I think something is wrong. 01:06:33.929 --> 01:06:36.149 So that means, I don't know. 01:06:37.963 --> 01:06:43.043 I'm not running any company, of course. I don't know how it is going to be implemented. 01:06:43.203 --> 01:06:45.343 But this is my perspective. 01:06:45.943 --> 01:06:52.623 And also because I understand interpretation of giving meaning to something. 01:06:53.063 --> 01:06:58.003 It's an act of, it's a creative act. 01:06:58.843 --> 01:07:06.163 So that means if you don't give space to create creativity in the chain of the 01:07:06.163 --> 01:07:11.843 actors, I think maybe your work is going to be done in some ways, 01:07:11.983 --> 01:07:15.163 but it's not going to be well done, in my opinion. 01:07:15.363 --> 01:07:21.423 Because it's not only to make an execution of that, but it's make it good, 01:07:21.563 --> 01:07:24.183 make people feel good. Right. 01:07:24.863 --> 01:07:31.683 So now we are again almost back in a confinement period because of COVID-19. 01:07:34.043 --> 01:07:39.743 So, what did we learn about human collaboration in this period? 01:07:42.483 --> 01:07:50.743 I might tell you my experience because the first thing I think we have to learn 01:07:50.743 --> 01:07:55.923 from this period is that collaboration is the base of survival. 01:07:57.409 --> 01:08:00.529 So that means, let's take this problem of vaccine. 01:08:01.109 --> 01:08:06.529 Okay, I might believe that vaccine is not good for me for many reasons because 01:08:06.529 --> 01:08:07.969 I don't trust science or whatever. 01:08:09.349 --> 01:08:12.529 I don't say, personally, I think that. 01:08:13.089 --> 01:08:20.229 But if I don't believe that vaccination is about the collectiveness that I'm 01:08:20.229 --> 01:08:26.569 making good for everybody, so I'm not, I didn't learn anything. 01:08:27.709 --> 01:08:33.129 And this is one big, I think this is one consequence of that. 01:08:33.849 --> 01:08:38.109 People start to think too much about their own. They are isolated, 01:08:38.309 --> 01:08:41.729 but they forget about the whole. 01:08:42.009 --> 01:08:47.509 And we have now this problem. We are seeing how it's going to happen the next. 01:08:47.969 --> 01:08:56.589 Second thing that I learned to myself, I think in the, I call this the statics of compression. 01:08:57.749 --> 01:09:01.489 What's the static of compression when you 01:09:01.489 --> 01:09:04.689 have to express yourself in small space 01:09:04.689 --> 01:09:10.409 and with repetition of patterns you know so many other things happen continuously 01:09:10.409 --> 01:09:20.149 you put yourself inside that cave so you you have to take things from your values 01:09:20.149 --> 01:09:22.789 if you don't have values if you 01:09:22.809 --> 01:09:26.189 not think about your values you have to build up them because 01:09:26.189 --> 01:09:30.009 if you don't do that you're going to become crazy and 01:09:30.009 --> 01:09:33.369 for sure and what what i did personally 01:09:33.369 --> 01:09:37.129 was at the beginning of of uh pandemics 01:09:37.129 --> 01:09:42.369 i was a little bit stressed and crazy so i decided i'm going to write letters 01:09:42.369 --> 01:09:48.769 musical letter and i write many musical letters to friends of mine musical letters 01:09:48.769 --> 01:09:53.809 are a small score that take five minutes or six minutes to play them. 01:09:54.569 --> 01:09:59.769 But in doing that, I start to talk to people and people start to come back. 01:09:59.949 --> 01:10:05.369 And the largest experience of collaboration, I think I showed you, Paul, 01:10:06.029 --> 01:10:15.909 I wrote a poetry, a small poetry describing that behavior of being reconnected. 01:10:15.909 --> 01:10:22.249 And I sent this to to 15 dancers, and they bring them back with movement. 01:10:22.789 --> 01:10:27.629 There's no music. There's no music. They bring them back with movement and ask 01:10:27.629 --> 01:10:30.589 them to read, to read the poetry. 01:10:31.409 --> 01:10:36.669 Let's say in that sense, there's no music. What I did is when I received their 01:10:36.669 --> 01:10:43.149 movement and their voice, in that sense, I use algorithmic composition, but not. 01:10:44.202 --> 01:10:52.742 To produce notes, to produce a kind of expression that mixed up their movement with their voice. 01:10:53.262 --> 01:10:56.062 And now I call this result as music. 01:10:57.702 --> 01:11:00.842 That is very beautiful. There's no note. 01:11:00.942 --> 01:11:05.302 There's even one note there. But why I call this as music? 01:11:05.362 --> 01:11:10.962 Because it serves me as a composer to express a kind of will. 01:11:10.962 --> 01:11:17.722 But also, it's in the sound domain, it's organized, it makes a kind of melody, 01:11:18.002 --> 01:11:24.342 it makes a kind of harmony, but it's not necessary using pitch material. 01:11:24.902 --> 01:11:29.522 And also, of course, there are rhythms. So I don't know if I answered your question. 01:11:29.982 --> 01:11:34.302 Yeah, you did. But, Jonathas, another question is, do you believe, 01:11:34.542 --> 01:11:42.242 as you say now, right? So in this COVID period, you saw people also withdrawing more onto themselves. 01:11:43.222 --> 01:11:47.022 And in that sense, also, that's a risk for collaboration. 01:11:47.442 --> 01:11:52.522 But do you believe that humanity as such, let's say we look at massive challenges, right? 01:11:53.222 --> 01:11:58.542 Ecological collapse, look at Brazil, deforestation, the problems are massive. 01:11:58.542 --> 01:12:03.222 Do you believe, if you look at your own background and what you achieved, 01:12:03.322 --> 01:12:10.402 that humanity at large will be able to develop sustainable, long-term collaboration? 01:12:10.562 --> 01:12:12.202 Are we really able to do it? 01:12:14.862 --> 01:12:18.442 I think we need. That was not the question. 01:12:19.462 --> 01:12:27.482 Let me say, a difficult question. But I tend to be that when people need things, they go for it. 01:12:28.302 --> 01:12:32.762 For example, if I'm starving, I go. So I believe that this new generation, 01:12:33.342 --> 01:12:40.002 these students of mine, my son, they are going to make it for the good. We have to survive. 01:12:40.202 --> 01:12:44.302 I think that situation we are living now is a big alarm. 01:12:44.722 --> 01:12:52.002 And also, I think it's very important we take care of culture and art in that future society. 01:12:52.402 --> 01:12:56.042 Because many of the problems we have to solve. 01:12:57.202 --> 01:13:04.122 Are not only in the hands of science. And I'm talking about not only about environmental problems. 01:13:04.322 --> 01:13:08.922 I'm talking because environmental problems, they take many layers, 01:13:08.982 --> 01:13:11.342 layers of, you say, the forest. 01:13:11.922 --> 01:13:19.202 Other story that the, but also we have this level of relationship. 01:13:20.302 --> 01:13:29.202 So you see how people tend to be very, let's say, intolerant today. 01:13:29.502 --> 01:13:35.862 I think one of the things that collaboration arts and cultures might lead us 01:13:35.862 --> 01:13:40.922 is to survive and build up a society of more homogeneity. 01:13:41.802 --> 01:13:44.982 Not so with spikes. 01:13:45.402 --> 01:13:51.802 I mean, we have a society all in spikes and knives and forks. 01:13:51.822 --> 01:13:53.742 Give me, I'm going to eat it. 01:13:53.782 --> 01:13:56.802 I'm going to eat. So that's the problem. 01:13:57.202 --> 01:14:03.122 But I think in the future, we have to give space for art, science, 01:14:03.362 --> 01:14:05.402 and culture if you want to succeed. 01:14:05.862 --> 01:14:10.322 Not only science. Of course, science has its role. 01:14:10.822 --> 01:14:15.262 But Jonas, last question. If you could change one thing in humans, 01:14:15.602 --> 01:14:18.562 right? You can change one thing by magic, anything. 01:14:19.222 --> 01:14:22.982 What's the one thing you would change to make them better collaborators? 01:14:25.762 --> 01:14:31.522 I would change their capacity of believing in other people. 01:14:32.242 --> 01:14:34.842 I would change their ability of being tolerant. 01:14:36.502 --> 01:14:39.422 Dominus Manzoni, thank you very much for this conversation. 01:14:41.942 --> 01:14:47.162 Hi, you listened to one of our podcasts in the series on collaboration produced 01:14:47.162 --> 01:14:50.082 by the Ernst Trumund Forum and the Convergent Science Network. 01:14:50.762 --> 01:14:53.722 You can find more episodes on our website.