WEBVTT 00:00:05.134 --> 00:00:08.314 Hi, I'm Paul Verchure and together with my colleague Julia Loop, 00:00:08.434 --> 00:00:10.474 we are speaking with Reverend Dr. 00:00:10.654 --> 00:00:14.894 Rafael Malpica on the role of collaboration in social justice movements and 00:00:14.894 --> 00:00:15.934 religious organizations. 00:00:16.634 --> 00:00:20.994 From his early work as a parish minister in Puerto Rico to his role as Bishop 00:00:20.994 --> 00:00:25.794 of the Caribbean Synod and Director of Global Missions, Rafael has worked in 00:00:25.794 --> 00:00:30.894 over 70 countries with different groups of people on programs that address development work, 00:00:31.354 --> 00:00:34.154 advocacy, as well as ethnic and racial programs. 00:00:35.054 --> 00:00:36.234 Rafael, welcome to the podcast. 00:00:37.794 --> 00:00:42.054 Thank you. It's a great pleasure that you're here with us. 00:00:42.174 --> 00:00:48.474 So, Rafael, could you give a short description of your biographical trajectory 00:00:48.474 --> 00:00:52.334 that brought you where you are today, also in our podcast? 00:00:54.314 --> 00:00:59.114 Thank you, Paul and Julia, for this opportunity to be in conversation with you. 00:00:59.994 --> 00:01:06.514 As my name may suggest, I am of a Hispanic or Latino background. 00:01:06.614 --> 00:01:11.074 I was born and raised as a Lutheran in the island of Puerto Rico. 00:01:12.234 --> 00:01:19.434 And I did my undergrad in Puerto Rico and then my theological studies at the 00:01:19.434 --> 00:01:22.154 Lutheran Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. 00:01:22.154 --> 00:01:29.294 I returned to Puerto Rico, where I was ordained and served my first parish. 00:01:29.394 --> 00:01:33.454 And then when the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the EOCA, 00:01:33.694 --> 00:01:37.994 came together as a merger of three church bodies in the United States, 00:01:38.214 --> 00:01:43.754 I was elected the bishop of the Caribbean Synod, that is, Puerto Rico and the U.S. 00:01:43.754 --> 00:01:51.314 Virgin Islands. So I served as bishop in the Caribbean Synod and then came to 00:01:51.314 --> 00:01:57.494 join the churchwide staff as part of the Division for Global Mission as area 00:01:57.494 --> 00:01:59.294 secretary for Latin America, 00:01:59.514 --> 00:02:01.954 then became the executive director 00:02:01.954 --> 00:02:09.134 for the Division for Global Mission for about 16 years or 17 years. 00:02:09.134 --> 00:02:15.394 And now this February, as the EOCA entered into a new redesign, 00:02:15.594 --> 00:02:23.954 I was appointed executive director of a new home area known as Service and Justice, 00:02:24.194 --> 00:02:27.614 bringing together all of our global work in terms of mission, 00:02:27.874 --> 00:02:30.774 development work, advocacy, 00:02:31.114 --> 00:02:34.114 and ethnic and racial ministries. 00:02:35.034 --> 00:02:38.414 Over how many countries is your organization active? 00:02:39.134 --> 00:02:47.274 We are active in about 90 countries with companions primarily from member churches 00:02:47.274 --> 00:02:52.114 of the Lutheran World Federation, but then other organizations and churches as well. 00:02:52.374 --> 00:02:58.474 Okay. So, Rafael, could you give me your definition of collaboration and what it is good for? 00:02:59.724 --> 00:03:07.464 Well, I think that collaboration is coming together to build on each other's 00:03:07.464 --> 00:03:13.964 strength and to provide a space where the skill competencies that we all bring 00:03:13.964 --> 00:03:17.804 come together to address a specific issue. 00:03:17.944 --> 00:03:21.984 As we collaborate, there are three things that are really important. 00:03:22.224 --> 00:03:28.544 First, that we understand the differentiation between the two collaborators, 00:03:28.844 --> 00:03:32.464 whether whether individuals or entities, what each one brings, 00:03:32.724 --> 00:03:36.924 their own idiosyncrasies, their own identities. 00:03:37.204 --> 00:03:43.604 Then what is the complementarity between those two companions, 00:03:44.104 --> 00:03:50.284 what they can work together, what is the intersectionality between those skills and competencies? 00:03:50.524 --> 00:03:56.164 And then the third question, who has the capacity to implement and how can we 00:03:56.164 --> 00:03:58.224 do that either Either individually, 00:03:58.624 --> 00:04:08.024 together, or any other ways that will benefit the goal that we have before us. 00:04:08.724 --> 00:04:14.984 But now, in your view, so this is a very comprehensive definition, 00:04:15.624 --> 00:04:21.624 but is that also predicated on, let's say, the context of a church, 00:04:21.824 --> 00:04:24.224 the religious context in which you operate? 00:04:24.224 --> 00:04:29.184 Or do you see this as a generic model that would work outside and inside the 00:04:29.184 --> 00:04:31.304 context in which you are actually active? 00:04:32.484 --> 00:04:41.364 Well, I think that it came up primarily within the context of a church and my work there. 00:04:41.564 --> 00:04:48.664 But in my experience, it's something that works across sectors. 00:04:48.664 --> 00:04:56.844 It is something that will work outside of a church structure because the basis 00:04:56.844 --> 00:05:02.604 for this understanding of collaboration comes from outside of the church. 00:05:02.604 --> 00:05:10.704 I was very influenced by the work of Paulo Freire, a Brazilian educator. 00:05:11.204 --> 00:05:22.064 And Paulo Freire understands that journey toward collaboration as paying attention to the other world. 00:05:23.112 --> 00:05:27.712 That we meet in that venture of coming together. So I would say that it will 00:05:27.712 --> 00:05:30.272 work outside of a church setting as well. 00:05:30.852 --> 00:05:36.412 But also in your example now, there is a shared sense then of, 00:05:36.552 --> 00:05:39.452 let's say, the humanity, like the coming together, 00:05:39.772 --> 00:05:47.112 also a form of, let's say, an empathy towards the other and a flexibility in 00:05:47.112 --> 00:05:49.592 case there might be collision between objectives. 00:05:50.372 --> 00:05:54.452 Would that be correct to say? Yes, that is central. 00:05:54.672 --> 00:06:01.752 I mean, in addition to, I mean, theological or educational perspective that 00:06:01.752 --> 00:06:04.032 will inform our notion of collaboration, 00:06:04.872 --> 00:06:11.812 I think that there is something more fundamental and basic, and it is what you just shared, Paul. 00:06:11.952 --> 00:06:17.952 How do we understand the other? I say, from my perspective of a church, 00:06:18.112 --> 00:06:23.812 that the biggest missiological question is not the theory behind mission. 00:06:23.992 --> 00:06:28.912 It is very simple. And that missiological question is, how do I engage the other? 00:06:28.912 --> 00:06:33.412 Because if I am not able to see the face of God in the other, 00:06:33.512 --> 00:06:40.212 or to see the relationality between me and the other, then my engagement with 00:06:40.212 --> 00:06:45.332 the other is one in which I made that other the object of my actions. 00:06:45.592 --> 00:06:47.372 And that is not collaboration. 00:06:48.752 --> 00:06:55.792 So otherness, or alterity as Levinas will define it, is key for this understanding 00:06:55.792 --> 00:06:58.932 of collaboration. Very clear. 00:06:59.072 --> 00:07:06.512 But then, now there's an interesting relationship, because you might argue that 00:07:06.512 --> 00:07:11.492 this idea of the other as someone to relate to and to understand, 00:07:11.832 --> 00:07:19.412 as opposed to instrumentalizing or controlling, might exist prior to a religious 00:07:19.412 --> 00:07:22.032 elaboration of the other. 00:07:22.032 --> 00:07:28.332 So would you agree with that would you see that that is actually a more fundamental 00:07:28.332 --> 00:07:34.432 let's say human drive or instinct on which religion also is predicated, 00:07:35.625 --> 00:07:41.265 Sure. It is that basic core of our shared humanity. 00:07:41.565 --> 00:07:47.225 It is our common understanding of ourselves. 00:07:47.845 --> 00:07:53.005 And if, I mean, if we go, you know, philosophically on this. 00:07:53.345 --> 00:07:59.985 There are some people that say that you need that other to gain your self-understanding. 00:08:00.225 --> 00:08:07.565 So the process is reversed. It is not me making the other an object of my action, 00:08:07.625 --> 00:08:09.645 because at the end of the day, 00:08:09.745 --> 00:08:16.785 it is that engagement with the other that I achieve my self-consciousness. 00:08:16.885 --> 00:08:23.085 So there is this dynamic relationship between the I and the Tao, 00:08:23.265 --> 00:08:25.705 where they both need each other. 00:08:25.825 --> 00:08:30.985 They need that basic humanity. And if we use that as a basic principle, 00:08:31.185 --> 00:08:34.245 then, as you said, we can expand that theologically, 00:08:34.565 --> 00:08:42.665 we can expand that anthropologically, and develop systems that will allow us to achieve the end, 00:08:42.805 --> 00:08:48.365 which is the common good for that other and myself and the community that is 00:08:48.365 --> 00:08:50.225 formed through that engagement. 00:08:50.225 --> 00:08:52.945 I have a quick question. 00:08:53.005 --> 00:08:58.725 I'd like to go back for a second, Raphnail, if we could, to the way that you 00:08:58.725 --> 00:09:01.685 described collaboration in this three-step fashion. 00:09:01.985 --> 00:09:07.905 Understanding the differences of the other, understanding where there's intersection 00:09:07.905 --> 00:09:13.545 or complementary interests, and then a capacity to implement. 00:09:13.545 --> 00:09:19.025 I could imagine that understanding the differences in the people that are involved 00:09:19.025 --> 00:09:22.105 in a collaboration might pose a few problems. 00:09:22.485 --> 00:09:28.425 What binds people together to get you to look then for the intersection or the 00:09:28.425 --> 00:09:32.405 commonalities between not only the differences, but the commonalities? 00:09:32.405 --> 00:09:37.645 What binds you together beyond the belief structure? 00:09:37.885 --> 00:09:42.145 Obviously, the belief structure would do that. But are there other factors or 00:09:42.145 --> 00:09:45.405 methods that you use to get past the differences? 00:09:46.805 --> 00:09:52.325 Well, I think that the first step is to acknowledge the differences, 00:09:52.605 --> 00:09:58.745 not to assume those differences. So when two cultures meet, they never meet on a level plane. 00:09:58.905 --> 00:10:03.225 There is what I will call the asymmetries in the relationship. 00:10:03.485 --> 00:10:07.805 Those are the differences, whether those are historical, social, 00:10:08.005 --> 00:10:09.965 political, economically, economical. 00:10:09.965 --> 00:10:13.865 Economical so once you understand those 00:10:13.865 --> 00:10:19.365 differences that is the differentiation then you can move toward that complementarity 00:10:19.365 --> 00:10:25.825 so you acknowledge the differences but the difference are not used for a the 00:10:25.825 --> 00:10:33.625 domination of one over the other or the exclusion so at the end the basic question when when we meet. 00:10:35.437 --> 00:10:42.377 Another person is whose subjectivity is going to be raised to the level of normativity. 00:10:42.737 --> 00:10:45.917 And that is always a transactional relationship. 00:10:46.277 --> 00:10:53.697 That is the give and take between the differentiation and the complementarity to create then a new. 00:10:53.997 --> 00:10:59.317 So you have your story and my story, but when they meet, it's a new reality. 00:10:59.557 --> 00:11:04.857 It is our story. And then we need to create the conditions for, 00:11:04.977 --> 00:11:08.657 while maintaining our specific differentiation, 00:11:09.397 --> 00:11:16.857 how do we live in that space that brings us together and create a new reality 00:11:16.857 --> 00:11:22.617 that, for me, is basic, is the stepping stone towards something else. 00:11:22.617 --> 00:11:29.397 And that's something else in the engagement of human is how can we build together 00:11:29.397 --> 00:11:33.417 a better world for you and for me? 00:11:33.497 --> 00:11:36.157 I would say that that is the basic goal. 00:11:37.097 --> 00:11:41.577 But now, Rafael, so the way you describe it now in a very objective, 00:11:41.677 --> 00:11:46.797 neutral way, you can see how that would work in a small collective like our 00:11:46.797 --> 00:11:49.817 conversation right now, maybe a family. 00:11:49.817 --> 00:11:52.697 But if I start to scale that 00:11:52.697 --> 00:11:56.877 now to hundreds or thousands of millions how 00:11:56.877 --> 00:12:00.377 do I maintain those principles so 00:12:00.377 --> 00:12:04.977 how do you see that scaling occur also look at your own organization in which 00:12:04.977 --> 00:12:10.977 you're active which entails thousands of people so how do you get that scaling 00:12:10.977 --> 00:12:17.737 step from these very core human values into a complex collaborative system system. 00:12:19.008 --> 00:12:25.928 I would say, I mean, and it may sound reductionist, but it is a basic, 00:12:26.028 --> 00:12:29.588 simple communication and engagement with the other. 00:12:29.688 --> 00:12:38.868 When I meet you, your life is a text, either as an individual, 00:12:39.108 --> 00:12:43.288 as a society, or, you know, as a community. 00:12:43.568 --> 00:12:48.348 My life is a text. So as some philosophers propose. 00:12:48.908 --> 00:12:58.608 The key is how do we enter into conversation so that we could create this intertextuality, 00:12:58.648 --> 00:13:03.128 this meeting of the horizons, yours and mine. 00:13:03.128 --> 00:13:10.188 And you need to really work hard on that because you have to come to the table 00:13:10.188 --> 00:13:14.188 assuming a level playing field, 00:13:14.388 --> 00:13:18.788 that the other has the same value as you have, 00:13:19.048 --> 00:13:26.808 that the other has the capacity to articulate his or her own context so that 00:13:26.808 --> 00:13:33.008 that context will meet mine and then together envision that new reality. 00:13:33.128 --> 00:13:38.308 That will serve as the starting point for our conversations. 00:13:38.728 --> 00:13:43.368 And that's the system that we use when we engage, for example, 00:13:43.388 --> 00:13:48.048 this very small community or the government of South Sudan to address the issue 00:13:48.048 --> 00:13:51.588 of health care in Juva or whatever system. 00:13:51.768 --> 00:13:56.108 It is that basic principle of understanding the differences, 00:13:56.568 --> 00:14:05.208 identifying the complementarity, and then empowering individuals to engage together 00:14:05.208 --> 00:14:08.668 that new horizon that we are creating. 00:14:10.015 --> 00:14:17.735 Raphael, I understand. However, what I was trying to see is whether religious 00:14:17.735 --> 00:14:23.855 frameworks are also not so effective because they're very sophisticated systems 00:14:23.855 --> 00:14:29.635 to actually stabilize and consolidate collaborative processes. 00:14:29.635 --> 00:14:33.295 Because they do give a shared ontology, for instance. 00:14:33.515 --> 00:14:38.835 You say, well, if we are part of the same church, the same religion, 00:14:39.135 --> 00:14:42.255 there are certain things we agree to that we're not going to question. 00:14:42.935 --> 00:14:48.855 There are certain rules of conduct, for instance. There are certain realities that we just accept. 00:14:48.955 --> 00:14:56.615 We're not questioning them. So, would you agree with the point of view that 00:14:56.615 --> 00:15:01.875 religion is a scaling step in collaboration because it takes away a lot of ambiguity 00:15:01.875 --> 00:15:04.535 and potential sources of conflict? 00:15:04.535 --> 00:15:12.095 We believe in a similar reality, and also we believe in the methods to access that reality, 00:15:12.295 --> 00:15:17.455 and we believe in certain value systems that make us conduct in certain ways, 00:15:17.615 --> 00:15:21.535 even when the immediate situation looks very adverse. 00:15:23.275 --> 00:15:30.575 Yes, that's true. I think that in religion, we can find either that tool that 00:15:30.575 --> 00:15:34.115 will allow us for that engagement. 00:15:34.535 --> 00:15:42.155 Some shared values, either in a sophisticated way or in the very basic ways 00:15:42.155 --> 00:15:48.775 that we saw it, for example, in the Latin American context with the Christian-based communities. 00:15:48.955 --> 00:15:55.095 There we saw it come to a very basic understanding. 00:15:55.295 --> 00:16:00.735 But at the same time, and that's the flip side of religion, it has the capacity 00:16:00.735 --> 00:16:07.715 to divide. And rather than bring us together, it creates those divisions. 00:16:07.935 --> 00:16:17.515 So that's why we need to always find systems that give us those check and balance 00:16:17.515 --> 00:16:20.955 to avoid those pitfalls. 00:16:21.155 --> 00:16:27.155 Right. But can you elaborate on those pitfalls exactly? Why would a system that 00:16:27.155 --> 00:16:33.595 on the one hand enhances collaboration or stabilizes it also instill division? 00:16:33.975 --> 00:16:36.895 What's the mechanism here exactly? Why does this happen? 00:16:38.475 --> 00:16:43.175 Can you say that, ask the question again? Well, you said yourself earlier that 00:16:43.175 --> 00:16:48.455 religion, even though it might also enhance collaboration, can also lead to 00:16:48.455 --> 00:16:50.595 division and in that way obstruct collaboration. 00:16:51.175 --> 00:16:56.255 So can you explain why that happens? And do you have examples of this kind of breakdown? 00:16:58.312 --> 00:17:02.932 Well, I would say that in my experience, 00:17:03.252 --> 00:17:11.732 when we engage that other, whether it is a religious other or political other, 00:17:11.892 --> 00:17:19.252 again, we are going back to what is that common denominator that will allow 00:17:19.252 --> 00:17:21.312 for the greater engagement. 00:17:21.632 --> 00:17:27.532 And I would say that at the end of that day is our shared humanity. 00:17:27.532 --> 00:17:32.712 Whether you understand that from a religious context or a political context, 00:17:32.872 --> 00:17:42.092 both of us as human beings have needs, have aspirations, have dreams for a better society. 00:17:42.092 --> 00:17:52.572 And those are things that transcend political or religious system that goes to the basic need. 00:17:52.772 --> 00:17:59.872 The mother in a community in Africa wants to provide better health care and 00:17:59.872 --> 00:18:04.592 better food and better housing for their child. 00:18:04.752 --> 00:18:08.152 I find that same mother in the south house of Chicago. 00:18:08.152 --> 00:18:18.812 So my job or my role from this position is then how can I become a broker. 00:18:19.092 --> 00:18:26.072 A midwife, so that those two stories meet together and create that shared space? 00:18:26.072 --> 00:18:34.132 And then the functions of people like me and organizations like either church 00:18:34.132 --> 00:18:42.552 or NGOs or even governments is how do we support that system that has been created, 00:18:42.712 --> 00:18:49.812 that shared space of humanity that brings together the hopes and aspirations. 00:18:49.812 --> 00:18:55.172 But Rachel, that's indeed, this common humanity is like the foundation. 00:18:55.552 --> 00:18:57.492 Right, on which we can build the collaboration. 00:18:57.652 --> 00:19:04.172 You yourself said earlier that if we start to elaborate that also in a religious 00:19:04.172 --> 00:19:09.632 context or in a context of ideas, of knowledge systems, this might also lead 00:19:09.632 --> 00:19:12.112 to collisions, because also religions can collide. 00:19:12.112 --> 00:19:18.852 Because the dogmas might be different, and people might get confused about the 00:19:18.852 --> 00:19:20.752 reality behind the dogma. 00:19:21.572 --> 00:19:25.412 So, what's your experience of this kind of breakdown? 00:19:26.652 --> 00:19:31.252 How can we overcome that? Well, we can overcome it, 00:19:31.332 --> 00:19:40.752 and this is my very personal opinion, And I'm sure that there will be theologians 00:19:40.752 --> 00:19:42.132 that will disagree with me. 00:19:42.192 --> 00:19:49.612 But as you said, the problem with the religious encounter is when that encounter is mediated by faith. 00:19:50.516 --> 00:19:58.916 Dogmatism, by my need to clearly, not only to clearly state what I believe, 00:19:59.316 --> 00:20:03.436 but at the end, to make you believe in my own system. 00:20:03.676 --> 00:20:10.036 However, if we go to a very basic definition of religion using the Latin root, 00:20:10.216 --> 00:20:12.956 that means religare, to reconnect. 00:20:13.236 --> 00:20:23.356 And basically, the common denominator of every religious system is then how that religare, 00:20:23.436 --> 00:20:30.556 that reconnecting happens between an individual and God, however they define their God, 00:20:30.816 --> 00:20:34.096 and then between individuals themselves. 00:20:34.656 --> 00:20:42.576 So if we understand religion as that ability for us to reconnect with one another 00:20:42.576 --> 00:20:46.256 based Based on some shared principles, 00:20:46.636 --> 00:20:57.116 we have a better chance to avoid that pitfall of dogmatism that leads then to 00:20:57.116 --> 00:21:02.056 the imposition of my subjectivity as normative for everyone. 00:21:03.176 --> 00:21:09.816 We go to a specific example because your work and the capacity of this global 00:21:09.816 --> 00:21:14.936 mission, I could imagine that you encounter many different groups of people 00:21:14.936 --> 00:21:17.136 in many different cultural settings. 00:21:17.236 --> 00:21:23.896 And so there certainly cannot be one size fits all to manage the different things 00:21:23.896 --> 00:21:26.156 that go on in these different groups. 00:21:26.616 --> 00:21:34.916 For example, what would happen, say, in Germany, in a church in Germany would 00:21:34.916 --> 00:21:38.476 be perhaps different than in the Sudan or in. 00:21:39.273 --> 00:21:44.873 In wherever in Latin America, I could imagine that the cultural values of these 00:21:44.873 --> 00:21:52.633 different countries would somehow infiltrate the narrative between you as a 00:21:52.633 --> 00:21:56.873 global missions program and the individual groups. 00:21:57.073 --> 00:22:04.113 How do you manage this potential conflict that I see, at least? 00:22:04.113 --> 00:22:07.513 Well, that's why, again, 00:22:07.613 --> 00:22:15.193 going back to Paulo Freire and the hermeneutical or interpretation cycle of 00:22:15.193 --> 00:22:19.573 Latin American, either pedagogy or theology, 00:22:19.893 --> 00:22:22.353 which is always the action-reflection method. 00:22:22.353 --> 00:22:31.373 It is, you always need to be in that conversation between the context and to reflect on that. 00:22:31.513 --> 00:22:37.073 And once you agree on something, you need to do more reflection. 00:22:37.253 --> 00:22:45.453 So it is that constant dynamic between action and reflection that allows you, 00:22:45.593 --> 00:22:51.393 A, to identify the pitfalls and then to build system to go beyond that. 00:22:52.353 --> 00:22:59.193 Because if you don't do it, then you just want to level the playing field using your own tools. 00:22:59.513 --> 00:23:08.973 So, for example, I had a, as I said, I am Latino by birth, 00:23:09.113 --> 00:23:11.893 and the missionaries that came 00:23:11.893 --> 00:23:21.033 to Puerto Rico were from Swedish background people from the United States. 00:23:21.413 --> 00:23:24.893 We Puerto Ricans are fun people. 00:23:25.153 --> 00:23:29.173 We love our music and dancing. And I was doing that during the day. 00:23:29.253 --> 00:23:31.053 But when it came time to worship, 00:23:32.035 --> 00:23:38.435 Then I have to worship like the Swedes. There were elements of my story that 00:23:38.435 --> 00:23:43.635 were not allowed in that relationship between me and the other. 00:23:43.695 --> 00:23:48.035 So as I say, I was Puerto Rican by day and Lutheran by night. 00:23:49.835 --> 00:23:59.315 How is that managed nowadays? And then you have to come to that point that you 00:23:59.315 --> 00:24:02.335 have to deconstruct that system. 00:24:02.335 --> 00:24:05.615 And in deconstructing that system, 00:24:05.795 --> 00:24:12.255 you need to come with your own story, with your own idiosyncrasy and meeting 00:24:12.255 --> 00:24:18.355 that other and then engaging to that conversation of what is the common, 00:24:18.515 --> 00:24:25.115 what is the shared space and how from that shared space we continue to build 00:24:25.115 --> 00:24:29.495 without the imposition of one to the other. 00:24:29.495 --> 00:24:35.875 Because once you enter into that, we are talking about, you know, colonizing. 00:24:35.975 --> 00:24:40.755 You draw a line between your story and my story. 00:24:40.875 --> 00:24:48.655 And usually when you do that, God is on my side and God justifies whatever actions I want to do on you. 00:24:48.795 --> 00:24:51.975 I mean, that is the history of humankind right there. 00:24:53.255 --> 00:24:59.955 So we need to deconstruct that system. And the only way for us to deconstruct 00:24:59.955 --> 00:25:06.095 that system is to engage in otherness and embracing. 00:25:08.837 --> 00:25:12.477 Differences right now i get 00:25:12.477 --> 00:25:15.637 that and and i i agree with you however 00:25:15.637 --> 00:25:18.277 this is not easy right so it 00:25:18.277 --> 00:25:23.837 means what you're describing the route you're describing is also a route of 00:25:23.837 --> 00:25:29.297 of reflection and meditation and intellectual effort so do you believe are you 00:25:29.297 --> 00:25:36.877 assuming or how do you communicate that or how do you educate people to follow that route especially 00:25:37.157 --> 00:25:40.917 in the face of very fundamental existential threats. 00:25:41.417 --> 00:25:45.937 So how do you approach that from the perspective of your church? 00:25:47.897 --> 00:25:54.977 Well, as you said, we need to do it really by educating people. 00:25:54.977 --> 00:26:11.197 We need to present what we understand is the core of our beliefs and how that shows up. 00:26:11.277 --> 00:26:20.277 I usually say to people, and this may sound simple, at times it may sound offensive. 00:26:20.277 --> 00:26:25.437 And I am speaking of the American context now in the United States. 00:26:25.917 --> 00:26:36.797 I say to people, if I offend you, I must apologize. 00:26:38.717 --> 00:26:48.157 As I try to seek together that better place for all of us here in the United States context. it. 00:26:49.017 --> 00:26:55.177 But if the gospel offends you, then you have to pick it up with someone else. 00:26:56.677 --> 00:26:59.357 Jimmy Carter, our former president, 00:26:59.557 --> 00:27:05.057 has said, how could you describe yourself as a Christian nation? 00:27:07.315 --> 00:27:14.255 And right now we have an impasse in our Congress where a sector of the political 00:27:14.255 --> 00:27:22.235 spectrum don't want to invest $3.5 trillion to provide health care, child care. 00:27:23.175 --> 00:27:29.315 Tax credit for children, building the human infrastructure. structure. 00:27:30.075 --> 00:27:35.635 So I criticize that from a religious perspective. 00:27:35.835 --> 00:27:44.535 And the basic common denominator between the one that I shared with you earlier is what Jesus said. 00:27:44.655 --> 00:27:50.935 Jesus came to give life abundantly for us. That is my bottom line. 00:27:51.235 --> 00:27:57.475 That's what I engage. So my job from the perspective of global mission or service 00:27:57.475 --> 00:28:00.715 and justice is how can I engage any other, 00:28:00.855 --> 00:28:06.355 whether it is a political other, a religious other, so that together we can 00:28:06.355 --> 00:28:10.475 build a society where there is sufficient, 00:28:10.795 --> 00:28:16.675 sustainable livelihood for all, because that's what Jesus came to do. 00:28:16.955 --> 00:28:22.775 Now, within my own church, I have people that will label me as a political animal 00:28:22.775 --> 00:28:27.075 because they operate not from the perspective of the way of Jesus, 00:28:27.235 --> 00:28:29.975 but from the perspective of American civil religion. 00:28:30.355 --> 00:28:35.895 And that is different. So that process of education, as Paulo Freire said, 00:28:36.375 --> 00:28:40.815 is very interesting because from the perspective of the oppressed, 00:28:41.135 --> 00:28:44.955 the educational process will lead to your own liberation. 00:28:44.955 --> 00:28:52.755 But then there is an onus on you, and that is, how do you free your own oppressor? Mm-hmm. 00:28:53.812 --> 00:29:00.152 And that is really the challenge. But I would like to go back in time a bit because your career, 00:29:00.492 --> 00:29:09.532 a large part of it, also developed in parallel to a lot of turmoil in Latin America. Right? 00:29:09.632 --> 00:29:14.832 Revolutions, dictatorships, attempts to build democratic societies, 00:29:15.352 --> 00:29:23.312 in which I would imagine you also as becoming more active and increasingly more 00:29:23.312 --> 00:29:31.112 active and more important in your church was trying to have an influence, was trying to mediate. 00:29:31.112 --> 00:29:39.892 So can you describe that process and what the impact has been of that on your 00:29:39.892 --> 00:29:44.332 own thinking and on the countries in point? 00:29:46.592 --> 00:29:56.752 The hardest part of that for any individual or for a church is that you need 00:29:56.752 --> 00:30:03.732 to have clarity about what is about to happen to you. 00:30:03.952 --> 00:30:09.992 You cannot do it from a non-committed perspective. 00:30:09.992 --> 00:30:17.072 There were many that engage the Latin America reality or the reality of life 00:30:17.072 --> 00:30:26.532 under apartheid in South Africa from what I will call that intellectual perspective. 00:30:26.532 --> 00:30:34.572 Let's understand this to see how we can work with it. 00:30:35.872 --> 00:30:46.692 The process that I envision is harder because the first step is for you to be 00:30:46.692 --> 00:30:54.372 immersed in the reality that you seek to understand or to address. 00:30:54.372 --> 00:30:56.612 So you have to be committed. 00:30:57.412 --> 00:31:03.732 You have to put, as we say here in the United States, some skin in the game. 00:31:05.290 --> 00:31:13.630 And then that will determine the level of engagement for you as an individual 00:31:13.630 --> 00:31:17.390 or as a church as you accompany those process. 00:31:17.730 --> 00:31:25.410 I firmly believe in one of Karl Marx's critique of Feuerbach, 00:31:25.610 --> 00:31:27.410 a philosophical system. 00:31:27.410 --> 00:31:32.770 And Karl Marx, in his Thesis 11, says, the purpose of the philosopher, 00:31:33.070 --> 00:31:37.670 and I will translate it, the purpose of the theologian is not to understand 00:31:37.670 --> 00:31:39.610 the world, but to change it. 00:31:40.610 --> 00:31:47.990 Now, in order for you to create that space where change could happen, 00:31:48.150 --> 00:31:50.050 you need to put some skin. 00:31:50.190 --> 00:31:56.970 You cannot pretend to engage it from a noncommittal space. 00:31:57.410 --> 00:32:03.290 Right now in the United States, my church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in 00:32:03.290 --> 00:32:08.590 America, is one of the whitest denominations in this country. 00:32:09.390 --> 00:32:11.250 96% white. 00:32:12.330 --> 00:32:15.790 So now we want to be new, younger, and diverse. 00:32:16.190 --> 00:32:19.730 We want to invite people from other ethnic communities. 00:32:19.730 --> 00:32:26.450 My own conversation or my conversation with my own church, thinking about that 00:32:26.450 --> 00:32:30.690 change is just to raise a simple question. 00:32:30.690 --> 00:32:37.730 What will give you the idea that because we are saying now that we want to be more diverse, 00:32:38.370 --> 00:32:44.730 Latinx people, African-American people will be coming to our church when we 00:32:44.730 --> 00:32:50.310 historically, as a church, have not been present in their struggles? goals. 00:32:52.010 --> 00:32:57.450 And that is the key for us. 00:32:57.510 --> 00:33:02.950 And I would say the church or any organization that engages communities, 00:33:03.270 --> 00:33:08.450 for you to really be successful, you need to be part of that struggle. 00:33:08.670 --> 00:33:16.170 That's what the church rediscovered after Second Vatican Council in the Latin American context. 00:33:16.430 --> 00:33:20.790 And that's why you You had two churches, you have the hierarchy and you have 00:33:20.790 --> 00:33:23.810 the church of the poor, you have the Christian-based communities. 00:33:24.610 --> 00:33:32.270 But are you saying with that, that during the time of the dictatorships in Latin America, 00:33:32.430 --> 00:33:38.790 so we're speaking the 70s, 80s, that also your church did not have sufficient 00:33:38.790 --> 00:33:41.690 skin in that game to be of any influence? 00:33:42.902 --> 00:33:50.222 Well, in that particular case, not that much. 00:33:50.282 --> 00:33:57.642 We had missionaries that were serving there, and it was during that time of 00:33:57.642 --> 00:34:04.002 the Pinochet dictatorship that an organization to serve with marginalized, 00:34:04.602 --> 00:34:09.022 economically marginalized societies came together. 00:34:09.022 --> 00:34:16.942 Together, EPES is a popular education health care entity. 00:34:17.342 --> 00:34:25.062 So there was some skin, but in terms, and that transformation happened in communities. 00:34:25.182 --> 00:34:31.682 So people's lives were touched and resiliency was built on those communities. 00:34:31.682 --> 00:34:41.302 But for our engagement in the political scene, we didn't have that much skin. 00:34:41.422 --> 00:34:46.362 There was a German missionary, Helmut Frenz, who was, you know, 00:34:46.382 --> 00:34:50.982 he was really that voice from the religious church that really, 00:34:51.062 --> 00:34:53.822 really confronted Pinochet. 00:34:53.822 --> 00:35:02.122 So I think that the church has to be part of those process for liberation. 00:35:02.982 --> 00:35:09.222 When marginalized peoples raise their voices, look at what happened in Namibia, for example. 00:35:10.422 --> 00:35:17.922 Ninety-some percent of the membership of that population at that time were Lutherans. Why? 00:35:18.042 --> 00:35:23.202 Because the church was thriving. The church was part, not necessarily because 00:35:23.202 --> 00:35:25.382 the church saw itself as a protagonist, 00:35:25.742 --> 00:35:31.882 but the church was one more among many that were working together to really 00:35:31.882 --> 00:35:36.182 work toward the liberation and transformation of those societies. 00:35:36.182 --> 00:35:42.822 And transformation is not just cosmetic changes that we bring to any system. 00:35:43.342 --> 00:35:47.062 Transformation, because all systems will allow for transformation. 00:35:47.222 --> 00:35:52.242 And that's how they keep minority people happy, because we think that we are 00:35:52.242 --> 00:35:54.002 making progress, but we are not. 00:35:54.803 --> 00:35:59.823 Because at the end, the system leads to homeostasis, to that balance, 00:35:59.963 --> 00:36:04.863 and that's how they keep their hegemonity from a system perspective. 00:36:06.043 --> 00:36:12.303 Transformation needs displacement, and that is displacement to the margins. 00:36:12.443 --> 00:36:16.943 That was the experience of the Latin American churches. That was the experience 00:36:16.943 --> 00:36:20.543 of the church in Namibia, of the church in South Africa. 00:36:20.543 --> 00:36:28.523 And I believe that that is where God is calling the church in the context of the United States. 00:36:28.603 --> 00:36:36.243 When you have, you know, the rise of nativism and populism from the right, 00:36:36.263 --> 00:36:38.443 or some people will say fascism. 00:36:39.263 --> 00:36:46.783 So where is the church going? And I believe that God is calling Jesus' church 00:36:46.783 --> 00:36:52.563 to a new exodus, an exodus to the margin. 00:36:53.303 --> 00:36:57.023 And it is there in the margins that we will find those others. 00:36:57.663 --> 00:37:02.343 And those others will become not the object of our actions. 00:37:02.663 --> 00:37:06.603 They become our liberators. 00:37:06.603 --> 00:37:16.563 They will become the disruptors for hegemonic systems that do engage from the 00:37:16.563 --> 00:37:19.403 perspective of doing something for others, 00:37:19.643 --> 00:37:26.283 not doing things with and among, so that not only the life of the other is transformed, 00:37:26.563 --> 00:37:28.983 but also my life is transformed. 00:37:29.883 --> 00:37:35.063 So transformation needs to happen on both sides. Raphael, but in terms of displacement, 00:37:35.543 --> 00:37:41.343 you could also argue that that becomes now a rearguard battle almost, right? 00:37:41.383 --> 00:37:46.183 Because the bigger struggle, the ones you mentioned, nationalism, 00:37:46.563 --> 00:37:52.963 nativism, the fascism that's on the rise, the neoliberal forces that are on 00:37:52.963 --> 00:37:59.883 the rise, in some sense, you are evading a direct confrontation with those. 00:37:59.883 --> 00:38:05.483 And you say, well, let's then focus on the ones that have been displaced by 00:38:05.483 --> 00:38:09.243 these main forces that now seem to structure our society. 00:38:09.683 --> 00:38:14.143 So is that not becoming, are you now not marginalizing society? 00:38:15.194 --> 00:38:22.014 The potential of your religion and your church to bring about a more larger 00:38:22.014 --> 00:38:25.034 change in society, or do I not understand the process? 00:38:25.454 --> 00:38:30.554 No, because it is not an either-or type of process, it's both-and. 00:38:30.694 --> 00:38:35.554 At the same time that we journey toward the margin to find, 00:38:36.314 --> 00:38:41.594 those oppressed and work together in their liberation, at the same time that 00:38:41.594 --> 00:38:46.974 we do that, that we need to also address the system. 00:38:47.894 --> 00:38:51.754 So we have a social statement, the social teaching of this church. 00:38:53.754 --> 00:39:00.754 Adopted in 1993 in Peace for God's World, described the church in three unique ways. 00:39:00.994 --> 00:39:05.514 And most ELCA members will agree with two wholeheartedly. 00:39:05.714 --> 00:39:10.954 We say first that the church is to be a healing presence in the world. 00:39:10.954 --> 00:39:13.714 That is when we go to the margins, etc. 00:39:14.334 --> 00:39:20.494 Second one says that the church is to be a reconciling presence in the world. 00:39:20.534 --> 00:39:25.074 And no one questions that because at the end of the day, we try to do that, 00:39:25.134 --> 00:39:27.754 to become bridges between individuals. 00:39:28.114 --> 00:39:32.554 And here come the third one that gave us pause. 00:39:32.774 --> 00:39:38.614 The church is to be a disturbing presence in the world. 00:39:38.614 --> 00:39:41.954 And it is precisely that disturbing 00:39:41.954 --> 00:39:45.014 presence through our advocacy efforts 00:39:45.014 --> 00:39:48.394 on Capitol Hill at the United Nations 00:39:48.394 --> 00:39:57.194 a state public a state legislature it is that disrupting presence that addresses 00:39:57.194 --> 00:39:59.734 the larger question so it's not either 00:39:59.734 --> 00:40:06.434 or it is both and I find this very interesting because if you are not. 00:40:07.614 --> 00:40:10.674 Intimately involved with a group like this it's 00:40:10.674 --> 00:40:13.854 very easy to to equate global missions 00:40:13.854 --> 00:40:16.634 as as you said earlier as the swede who 00:40:16.634 --> 00:40:19.474 comes into puerto rico and and brings in 00:40:19.474 --> 00:40:22.394 their top down system of whatever 00:40:22.394 --> 00:40:26.414 and you're describing a completely different situation and 00:40:26.414 --> 00:40:30.554 i find that a really positive change um it 00:40:30.554 --> 00:40:34.014 and in your position as as global in 00:40:34.014 --> 00:40:36.734 global missions i assume you have quite a 00:40:36.734 --> 00:40:40.414 lot of influence in the ecla how do 00:40:40.414 --> 00:40:43.894 you practically um is 00:40:43.894 --> 00:40:49.694 this is this localized is this organized on a local level like the the um going 00:40:49.694 --> 00:40:56.894 to the state legislatures or drives to food drives or uh is it at a local level 00:40:56.894 --> 00:41:01.354 how does it scale up from the local level to a more effective national level, 00:41:01.454 --> 00:41:04.414 say in the United States? Yes. 00:41:06.214 --> 00:41:22.134 We try to use the learning from our global engagement to understand and to work in the local context. 00:41:22.414 --> 00:41:28.494 Why do we do that? Well, because Because before, we needed to go outside of 00:41:28.494 --> 00:41:30.734 the United States to find the world. 00:41:30.894 --> 00:41:37.054 Well, the reality is that the whole world is living next door to us. 00:41:37.234 --> 00:41:44.374 So from that perspective, we are using a word that was coined by a Roman Catholic 00:41:44.374 --> 00:41:50.174 theologian here in Chicago, the word gloco, global and local. 00:41:50.434 --> 00:41:58.214 So it is a glocal reality. And in that global reality, we start from that base 00:41:58.214 --> 00:42:04.434 of, you know, transformation in India, in the local communities. 00:42:04.434 --> 00:42:11.394 How do we organize to provide better food or to address health care needs? 00:42:11.394 --> 00:42:20.934 Needs or in these days, the impact of COVID on Black communities in the United States, 00:42:21.134 --> 00:42:31.434 the issue of refugees from Haiti or from Latin America, and how that starts 00:42:31.434 --> 00:42:34.994 as providing services to those communities. 00:42:35.314 --> 00:42:37.914 Engaging them, reconciling them. 00:42:38.094 --> 00:42:42.274 So that's the healing and the reconciling. But we cannot stop there. 00:42:42.494 --> 00:42:47.274 We need to advocate in state legislature, for example, in Texas, 00:42:47.434 --> 00:42:49.754 that have passed these laws. 00:42:50.816 --> 00:42:55.796 From my perspective, horrific law about abortion. 00:42:56.116 --> 00:43:01.596 How can we engage in supporting women's reproductive rights? 00:43:01.736 --> 00:43:05.416 But at the same time that we do that with the Texas legislature, 00:43:05.636 --> 00:43:07.376 how do we work with the U.S. 00:43:07.416 --> 00:43:10.336 Congress through our office in the United States? 00:43:10.656 --> 00:43:13.796 Right now, we have the situation with COVID. How 00:43:13.796 --> 00:43:19.756 do we engage through the United Nations to address addressed the issue of intellectual 00:43:19.756 --> 00:43:26.876 property so that we can produce and challenge the big pharma to allow for the 00:43:26.876 --> 00:43:32.936 generic production of vaccines so that people in Africa, 00:43:33.036 --> 00:43:37.696 where we only have 1% of the population vaccinated, can have access to that. 00:43:37.836 --> 00:43:40.696 I can love them. I can feed them. 00:43:40.736 --> 00:43:47.276 I can do all that but if i don't work with the system that will allow us that transformation. 00:43:49.656 --> 00:43:54.956 Then nothing will happen we will get stuck so it has to be it has to be really 00:43:54.956 --> 00:44:02.976 comprehensive but rafael well the consequence of what you're saying is that in order to disrupt, 00:44:03.756 --> 00:44:08.936 you have to set your targets to disrupt and that in some sense now becomes a 00:44:08.936 --> 00:44:14.936 discussion that is not only within the confines of a religious organization. 00:44:15.276 --> 00:44:20.956 Now you are a social organization that has political objectives by necessity, 00:44:21.156 --> 00:44:23.076 as you also just summarized them, right? 00:44:23.096 --> 00:44:28.276 When you say, look, we have to defend female reproductive rights, and rightly so. 00:44:28.576 --> 00:44:32.216 But that in itself is now also a political commitment. 00:44:32.356 --> 00:44:37.236 So that means, how do you shape that? How do you shape then the political agenda 00:44:37.236 --> 00:44:43.696 that tells you where to disrupt and where to be, let's say, compliant and empathic. 00:44:44.578 --> 00:44:50.978 Yeah, we do that through various ways. So, for example, as we have been talking, 00:44:51.118 --> 00:44:53.638 the educational component is really important. 00:44:53.878 --> 00:44:59.218 We need to educate our people and we have networks throughout the church that 00:44:59.218 --> 00:45:03.158 do provide for that engagement. 00:45:03.538 --> 00:45:08.498 We need to provide the tools for individuals to really engage the issue, 00:45:08.598 --> 00:45:14.358 to understand it. We have a strong social teaching policy basis. 00:45:14.498 --> 00:45:19.418 And then we have what I will call the system to deliver that. 00:45:19.558 --> 00:45:27.098 So we have a very strong advocacy network as, you know, state legislatures where 00:45:27.098 --> 00:45:31.218 we have offices throughout the United States and then in Congress. 00:45:31.218 --> 00:45:37.578 And we have the way to activate those networks. That is important. 00:45:37.838 --> 00:45:44.718 But here comes the issue. And that is the issue that is affecting the Evangelical 00:45:44.718 --> 00:45:46.538 Lutheran Church in America today. 00:45:47.758 --> 00:45:55.078 And that is that that particular engagement in this blue and red reality of 00:45:55.078 --> 00:45:58.118 the United States is seen as partisan. 00:45:58.118 --> 00:46:07.198 So many people that sit in the pews of our congregation think that us from the 00:46:07.198 --> 00:46:11.378 national offices, we are too liberal. We are too liberal. 00:46:12.258 --> 00:46:20.698 This is what I say. This is what I say, and I don't apologize for it. 00:46:20.698 --> 00:46:29.498 I cannot allow any political ideology to claim for itself what belongs to the gospel. 00:46:30.818 --> 00:46:37.718 So when I engage, and when I engage to advocate for women's reproductive rights, 00:46:37.798 --> 00:46:41.178 I am not supporting Joe Biden's agenda. 00:46:42.358 --> 00:46:49.778 I am not against Donald Trump's agenda. I am following the way of Jesus. 00:46:51.378 --> 00:46:58.218 And I have to explain that. And that is the hardest thing for people to understand. 00:46:59.158 --> 00:47:05.798 There is a cartoonist here called the Naked Pastor, and he has a cartoon that you have a church. 00:47:05.798 --> 00:47:11.918 And then you see these people inside the church leaning against the door and 00:47:11.918 --> 00:47:14.278 Jesus is outside the door. 00:47:15.483 --> 00:47:21.983 And the caption reads, they are saying, don't let him in. He will change everything. 00:47:22.823 --> 00:47:26.823 Right. We need to change the mindset of Jesus. 00:47:27.403 --> 00:47:32.903 As one of my friends and former bosses says, Jesus did not come to die. 00:47:33.483 --> 00:47:37.543 We need to do away with those atonement theories, sir. 00:47:37.983 --> 00:47:45.563 Jesus came to live. It was his mission, his radical mission that placed him on the cross. 00:47:46.383 --> 00:47:54.963 And if we are a group of people that bear that name, we must be open to assume that consequence. 00:47:56.243 --> 00:48:00.803 So that is at the heart of everything we do. 00:48:00.923 --> 00:48:06.803 It is to follow the way of Jesus, which was a way not only for those that follow 00:48:06.803 --> 00:48:09.323 him, it was the way for everyone. 00:48:10.123 --> 00:48:12.703 Whether they were in or out. 00:48:14.743 --> 00:48:22.583 Okay, I understand. So your commitment, if you want, to the teachings of Jesus, 00:48:23.763 --> 00:48:29.783 define then implicitly already where your political commitments will lie. 00:48:30.183 --> 00:48:33.383 But still within that, you will prioritize, right? 00:48:33.423 --> 00:48:37.303 So for instance, we on the one hand can look at ecological collapse. 00:48:37.303 --> 00:48:45.243 We can look at the rights of female reproduction and a whole slew of political 00:48:45.243 --> 00:48:50.003 challenges where you still will have to prioritize where you're going to put your emphasis. 00:48:50.703 --> 00:48:53.083 So then how do you do this prioritization? 00:48:54.553 --> 00:48:59.013 Well, we do that in conversation with the people. 00:48:59.113 --> 00:49:06.793 I cannot prioritize from my office at the building in Chicago or from my home. 00:49:07.133 --> 00:49:11.893 The priority will come from my engagement with the communities. 00:49:13.773 --> 00:49:19.973 One staff member asked me the other day, Rafael, I like when you speak about 00:49:19.973 --> 00:49:21.793 liberation as the outcome. come? 00:49:21.873 --> 00:49:24.973 How can we shape that liberation? 00:49:25.273 --> 00:49:27.513 He said, we never shape someone else's liberation. 00:49:27.853 --> 00:49:32.733 We need to engage with those communities in conversation, and they will define 00:49:32.733 --> 00:49:34.773 how liberation will look like. 00:49:34.853 --> 00:49:38.433 Then I need to decide whether or not I will join that cause, 00:49:38.653 --> 00:49:40.653 whether or not I will join that struggle. 00:49:40.833 --> 00:49:44.653 Well, the church produces, as I said, social statement. 00:49:45.293 --> 00:49:52.813 I have budget priorities. I have a programmatic emphasis. All of that is secondary. 00:49:53.133 --> 00:49:56.433 That helps me make decisions. 00:49:57.393 --> 00:50:04.553 What is key and where the priority comes is when I enter into conversation with that other. 00:50:04.713 --> 00:50:11.633 And in that conversation, they define how they understand their context and 00:50:11.633 --> 00:50:14.013 how liberation will look like. 00:50:14.013 --> 00:50:20.133 And then the question comes to me, are you willing to walk with them? 00:50:20.233 --> 00:50:27.573 And then I align the resources according to those programmatic priorities, but they set the agenda. 00:50:27.993 --> 00:50:33.713 So you're not talking about top-down, but rather this concept of being immersed 00:50:33.713 --> 00:50:40.273 within the group and accompanying the needs or responding to the needs of the 00:50:40.273 --> 00:50:42.273 people that you walk with. 00:50:43.253 --> 00:50:47.093 Yeah. All politics, as someone said, is local. 00:50:47.353 --> 00:50:53.033 All engagement is local. I cannot come from the outside and say, this is what you need. 00:50:53.193 --> 00:50:58.833 I need to listen to you and carefully listen to what that other is saying. 00:50:58.833 --> 00:51:04.473 And then I need to make the decision whether or not I will join in that walk. 00:51:04.593 --> 00:51:11.813 And when I commit, I need to understand that when I go into that walk is not 00:51:11.813 --> 00:51:14.393 to redirect so that my outcome. 00:51:17.169 --> 00:51:26.889 Will be the goal. I have to commit so that their outcome becomes a reality. 00:51:27.209 --> 00:51:32.729 And that's always hard, especially for Americans that always like to be on the driver's seat. 00:51:33.329 --> 00:51:38.569 We need to be in the passenger seat and really listening to those communities. 00:51:38.669 --> 00:51:42.949 And that happens outside of the United States, but this also happens here as 00:51:42.949 --> 00:51:45.189 we listen to those vulnerable communities. 00:51:45.969 --> 00:51:52.349 But now still in that collective process, there might be disagreement or even stalemate. 00:51:52.809 --> 00:51:57.409 So how do you break these deadlocks then in such a process? 00:51:58.589 --> 00:52:02.909 That is the hard question. That is hard. 00:52:03.149 --> 00:52:07.149 And there is not a magic wand for us to do that. 00:52:07.249 --> 00:52:14.309 It's all, I would say, it's all about sitting down and listening to the other. 00:52:14.309 --> 00:52:21.409 It is about that give and take it is, uh, uh, for us to never lose the elasticity. 00:52:21.729 --> 00:52:28.969 Uh, just imagine a, a, a rubber band when things go bad is when the rubber band loses it elasticity. 00:52:29.229 --> 00:52:33.929 So you, you know, go to one side or the other in any engagement. 00:52:34.089 --> 00:52:39.489 I always need to, to, to work on the, on that possibility of yes, 00:52:39.529 --> 00:52:42.289 expanding, but then coming to that center. 00:52:42.289 --> 00:52:47.349 And the key is for us to identify what is that common center, 00:52:47.589 --> 00:52:54.209 what is that shared space that will provide for the stretching and the coming back together. 00:52:54.469 --> 00:52:58.229 And we have talked about many possible ones. 00:52:58.369 --> 00:53:04.849 Our shared humanity, the shared space for engagement and how we define it. And then... 00:53:05.923 --> 00:53:13.643 For some of us, in certain contexts, the way of Jesus, that basic way of Jesus of life, 00:53:14.023 --> 00:53:21.563 full life for all of God's children, whether those children are Christians or 00:53:21.563 --> 00:53:27.883 Muslims or atheists or no faith, because we are building in a better world. 00:53:27.883 --> 00:53:34.383 I believe that God's dream for the world was for the world to be a reflection 00:53:34.383 --> 00:53:41.263 of that extreme relationality that we find in our understanding of God. 00:53:41.463 --> 00:53:45.883 And at the end, I think that we can work together with people of all faiths 00:53:45.883 --> 00:53:50.383 and even with civil society to create that kind of world. 00:53:50.383 --> 00:53:57.803 The question for us is, how are we going to address the isms that are rising 00:53:57.803 --> 00:54:01.323 up that gets in the way of that? 00:54:01.423 --> 00:54:04.043 That is really the hard political question. 00:54:04.563 --> 00:54:08.743 But then, Rafael, to propagate that within your own organization. 00:54:08.743 --> 00:54:11.443 So, before we look at how it relates to outside organizations, 00:54:11.843 --> 00:54:18.983 I assume you also rely on a hierarchical structure in which these considerations 00:54:18.983 --> 00:54:21.063 are being made and communicated, 00:54:21.403 --> 00:54:25.003 because otherwise it will be not handleable, right? 00:54:25.163 --> 00:54:29.983 Yeah. So, how does hierarchy then work within that context? 00:54:32.383 --> 00:54:41.823 I would say it is an instrument. It is an instrument for achieving that goal, 00:54:41.963 --> 00:54:42.923 for achieving that goal. 00:54:44.120 --> 00:54:49.820 I have never believed in trickle-down anything, trickle-down economics or anything else. 00:54:49.900 --> 00:54:55.100 So the dangers of understanding hierarchy in that sense is problematic. 00:54:55.520 --> 00:55:04.260 But yes, for example, we have this space for, you know, we call it ideation, coming together. 00:55:04.520 --> 00:55:07.520 So we bring some members of the Conference of Bishops. 00:55:07.700 --> 00:55:13.880 We bring people from the congregations. We bring community organizers and we 00:55:13.880 --> 00:55:19.060 create this space where we can bounce the idea from, 00:55:19.200 --> 00:55:27.740 you know, each other and then and then agree on on on those three things that are critical. 00:55:27.740 --> 00:55:33.220 A, to identify the strengths of each member around the table. 00:55:33.880 --> 00:55:37.520 Two, or second, what's the complementarity? 00:55:37.740 --> 00:55:42.220 And the third one, who has the capacity to do what? 00:55:43.140 --> 00:55:49.300 And the structure facilitates that conversation. 00:55:50.640 --> 00:55:53.860 Right. But now if we look outside of the organization, 00:55:54.260 --> 00:55:59.460 there you will also encounter or sometimes maybe even compete or collaborate 00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:07.520 with other religious organizations who maybe make very different assumptions about the world. 00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:14.580 So how do you structure collaboration between different religious organizations? 00:56:14.580 --> 00:56:20.060 You mentioned Muslims earlier, it might be indeed Islam, it might be Hinduism, 00:56:20.120 --> 00:56:26.160 Buddhism, or the different variations we see on Christianity or the Judeo-Christian tradition. 00:56:26.460 --> 00:56:32.540 So how do you allow this to collaborate in a constructive way? 00:56:32.540 --> 00:56:39.560 Well, as I have been saying, you need to come together and create the space 00:56:39.560 --> 00:56:44.000 for that conversation and for the identification of that person. 00:56:46.749 --> 00:56:51.129 Common denominator that will allow for that collaboration. That is key. 00:56:51.549 --> 00:56:58.109 But if you find yourself in a situation that after that process of consultation, 00:56:58.249 --> 00:57:05.149 because of either that dogmatism or those strong differences that you cannot 00:57:05.149 --> 00:57:10.269 identify a possible complementarity, 00:57:10.489 --> 00:57:13.449 what I do do is I move on. 00:57:13.629 --> 00:57:22.389 There is a management theory developed by a French woman and a Japanese fellow, 00:57:22.689 --> 00:57:25.189 the Blue Ocean Strategy. 00:57:25.729 --> 00:57:29.369 And in the Blue Ocean Strategy, the principle 00:57:29.369 --> 00:57:32.609 of that theory is that you never engage your competition 00:57:32.609 --> 00:57:36.129 because you will create the red ocean where 00:57:36.129 --> 00:57:38.849 they are feeding on each other so you try 00:57:38.849 --> 00:57:41.989 to create move on and create your 00:57:41.989 --> 00:57:45.189 blue ocean so if i cannot find 00:57:45.189 --> 00:57:51.689 a common space for collaboration i do not engage the resistance because that 00:57:51.689 --> 00:57:58.529 that that i will use time and energy and efforts there i just move on to create 00:57:58.529 --> 00:58:02.709 that blue ocean And for that, I need to find, 00:58:02.869 --> 00:58:13.349 you know, the meeting of the minds, people that are willing to build not on 00:58:13.349 --> 00:58:17.009 their specificity, but on their commonality. 00:58:18.329 --> 00:58:24.549 So it is hard work. It is hard work. You have to be very selective about who 00:58:24.549 --> 00:58:28.669 are who are who will be your strategic allies. 00:58:28.769 --> 00:58:35.369 But also in that conversation, you need to have very clear in your mind what 00:58:35.369 --> 00:58:37.589 are your non-negotiable. 00:58:38.009 --> 00:58:44.749 I am willing to negotiate, but you need to understand what are your non-negotiables, 00:58:44.749 --> 00:58:48.669 because I cannot cross that line. 00:58:48.809 --> 00:58:51.689 And to identify that is very important. 00:58:51.949 --> 00:58:56.089 So what are the non-negotiables for ELCA? 00:59:00.149 --> 00:59:10.309 I don't know if at this moment I can identify those, but if I use the social teachings, 00:59:10.789 --> 00:59:21.429 one non-negotiable is our understanding of economic life, which is sufficient, 00:59:21.749 --> 00:59:25.969 sustainable livelihood for all. That is a non-negotiable. 00:59:27.609 --> 00:59:33.909 Justice, equity is a non-negotiable. 00:59:34.829 --> 00:59:43.729 Dismantling, patriarchal, dehumanizing system is a non-negotiable for us. 00:59:43.729 --> 00:59:50.389 And I will say, at the end of the day, is the way of Jesus. 00:59:50.949 --> 01:00:01.309 There is a philosopher, a theologian here in the United States by the name of John Caputo, 01:00:01.409 --> 01:00:06.869 and he wrote a book playing on WWJD, 01:00:07.009 --> 01:00:10.229 What Will Jesus Do? That was the old one. 01:00:10.309 --> 01:00:16.329 Well, his new WWJD is What Will Jesus Deconstruct? 01:00:17.209 --> 01:00:24.769 And in his theory, he says that Jesus is the main deconstructionist for the church. 01:00:25.629 --> 01:00:29.409 And the challenge for the church is that irreducible gap. 01:00:30.049 --> 01:00:35.409 He uses the word irreducible gap between Jesus and itself. 01:00:35.409 --> 01:00:41.129 I don't want to say it is irreducible because what I'm trying to do is precisely 01:00:41.129 --> 01:00:49.489 to reduce that gap between Jesus that is called deconstructionist and the church as it exists today. 01:00:49.489 --> 01:00:54.849 And I believe that that will be my non-negotiable, which is the way of Jesus, 01:00:55.089 --> 01:01:02.669 the gospel of Jesus, which is that which stands to deconstruct all these isms 01:01:02.669 --> 01:01:08.689 and this self-centeredness of either individual, of nations. 01:01:08.689 --> 01:01:16.829 It is Jesus that stands against American exceptionalism, against individualism, 01:01:16.989 --> 01:01:20.909 against nativism, and that will be my non-negotiable. 01:01:21.009 --> 01:01:29.029 I cannot reduce Jesus to an ATM that gives blessing to people. 01:01:29.749 --> 01:01:32.769 No, Jesus is that deconstructionist that comes. 01:01:34.011 --> 01:01:40.971 Do you see the social media companies like the big tech companies, 01:01:41.311 --> 01:01:47.311 Google, Facebook, Twitter, and so on, also then as being at loggerheads with 01:01:47.311 --> 01:01:48.991 these non-negotiables? 01:01:49.711 --> 01:01:55.971 Well, look at what happened. Look at what happened yesterday here in the United States with Facebook. 01:01:56.111 --> 01:02:05.791 And that is the conversation that we had early on in all political analysis programs. 01:02:06.131 --> 01:02:10.511 So we are debating that. What is the role of these companies in, 01:02:10.611 --> 01:02:15.431 for example, benefiting from hate, from misinformation? 01:02:15.431 --> 01:02:18.371 Information uh so then the 01:02:18.371 --> 01:02:21.191 question is from a 01:02:21.191 --> 01:02:24.511 church perspective is i mean what 01:02:24.511 --> 01:02:27.351 what will jesus say in that 01:02:27.351 --> 01:02:34.351 context how can you bring jesus into into that into that conversation and and 01:02:34.351 --> 01:02:42.391 and that is always the the difficult thing because you know in my experience 01:02:42.391 --> 01:02:47.211 many christians don't want to bring Jesus into it, they bring Christ, 01:02:47.411 --> 01:02:51.211 and Christ is a human construction. 01:02:52.851 --> 01:02:59.571 So we build Christ with our sociopolitical ideologies. 01:03:00.411 --> 01:03:02.731 But Jesus of Nazareth, that is clear. 01:03:03.591 --> 01:03:07.031 Well, clearer, some theologians will say. 01:03:07.351 --> 01:03:12.511 So that's the question. How can we bring the disruption? 01:03:14.951 --> 01:03:23.551 That Jesus brings to those lives of isms that are so prevalent in our context. 01:03:23.831 --> 01:03:29.331 Right. So to follow up from that, do you believe also now, if we look at these 01:03:29.331 --> 01:03:31.891 challenges we face, also the last one here with social media, 01:03:32.091 --> 01:03:38.091 do you believe humanity will be able to create, 01:03:38.371 --> 01:03:43.151 manage, and sustain collaborative, constructive collaboration ever? 01:03:43.151 --> 01:03:44.591 Ever, or are we just incapable? 01:03:49.162 --> 01:03:54.862 Paul, if I answer that question for you, I can sell a lot of books. 01:03:55.042 --> 01:04:02.602 But that is really a very important question. I don't know. 01:04:02.782 --> 01:04:07.862 I don't know. At times I feel that I am trapped between Luther and Karl Marx 01:04:07.862 --> 01:04:13.022 because Luther had a very negative anthropology. 01:04:13.102 --> 01:04:18.342 He described human beings as a bag full of worms. On the other hand, 01:04:18.982 --> 01:04:25.242 Marx had a very positive anthropology, and that's why his system failed. 01:04:25.402 --> 01:04:31.462 He wasn't able to factor in that small world, word, sin. 01:04:31.702 --> 01:04:37.322 So how do you live between those two? I think that at the end of the day, 01:04:37.442 --> 01:04:44.782 I need to believe in the potential of humanity. 01:04:46.742 --> 01:04:52.262 But there are certain things that we need to do. 01:04:53.882 --> 01:05:01.502 We will not solve this problem with just nice cliches or ideas. 01:05:01.502 --> 01:05:09.202 We really need to get to work on the basis and really, really hold. 01:05:10.502 --> 01:05:15.622 We the people, as the U.S. Constitution says, so we the people need to rise up. 01:05:15.722 --> 01:05:23.022 We the people need to hold our governments accountable and say enough is enough. 01:05:24.022 --> 01:05:31.082 Enough is enough. There are enough resources in this world for all of us to 01:05:31.082 --> 01:05:35.262 have and enjoy that life full and abundant than Jesus promised. 01:05:35.582 --> 01:05:39.742 So how do we get at it? Not by making everyone Christian, 01:05:39.902 --> 01:05:47.502 but working from our basic humanity that we have the capacity to build resilient 01:05:47.502 --> 01:05:53.162 communities where people will enjoy life and happiness. 01:05:53.682 --> 01:05:59.242 But we'd have to get to work to that. But every individual human has to be able 01:05:59.242 --> 01:06:00.422 to get that message, right? 01:06:00.502 --> 01:06:06.962 So if I would give you magic powers and you could change one feature of humans 01:06:06.962 --> 01:06:11.022 so that they would be able to actually establish collaboration, 01:06:11.282 --> 01:06:13.522 what is the one feature you would change? 01:06:16.835 --> 01:06:24.595 I will either, I don't know if I will call it a change of feature or appropriate one. 01:06:24.775 --> 01:06:31.015 And here I will be, you know, of course, I will come at this from my religious 01:06:31.015 --> 01:06:35.575 perspective that is deeply rooted in social transformation. 01:06:35.575 --> 01:06:46.435 And that is what we Lutherans understand in what happens to us through justification. 01:06:47.195 --> 01:06:49.955 Justification is a big theological word. 01:06:50.835 --> 01:07:00.155 But Luther said that God comes to us to free ourselves from us so that we can 01:07:00.155 --> 01:07:01.655 concentrate on the other. 01:07:01.655 --> 01:07:05.335 So if every human being can 01:07:05.335 --> 01:07:15.355 receive that gift to displace our eyesight from our own belly button and engage 01:07:15.355 --> 01:07:22.315 the other and concentrate on serving the neighbor in need, 01:07:22.515 --> 01:07:25.775 neighbor love, that's what I will give to everyone. 01:07:25.775 --> 01:07:31.495 One, my magic one, will give every human being neighbor love. 01:07:32.475 --> 01:07:37.735 And if we do that, then I think that we can go back and dream the dream that 01:07:37.735 --> 01:07:45.735 God dreamt when God decided to create and we have messed it up, 01:07:45.815 --> 01:07:50.255 but neighbor love can get us there to that original intent. 01:07:51.595 --> 01:07:55.215 Great. Rafael Malpica Padilla, thank you very much for this conversation. 01:07:55.775 --> 01:07:59.755 Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Thank you, Paul and Julia, 01:07:59.955 --> 01:08:02.655 for the opportunity. A pleasure to be in conversation. 01:08:03.535 --> 01:08:08.595 Hi, you listened to one of our podcasts in the series on collaboration produced 01:08:08.595 --> 01:08:11.495 by the Ernst Trumund Forum and the Conversion Science Network. 01:08:12.255 --> 01:08:15.155 You can find more episodes on our website.