WEBVTT 00:00:05.188 --> 00:00:08.968 Hi, I'm Paul Vacheron, together with my colleague Julia Lupp. 00:00:09.008 --> 00:00:13.628 We're speaking today with Nandita Chaudhary, an expert on child development, 00:00:13.808 --> 00:00:18.408 family studies, and cultural psychology, with specific reference to Indian communities. 00:00:19.428 --> 00:00:22.628 A former professor at Laney Urban College at the University of Delhi, 00:00:22.888 --> 00:00:27.708 Nandita began her academic career as a Fulbright Scholar and is currently a 00:00:27.708 --> 00:00:31.208 Senior Fellow of the Indian Council of Social Science Research. search. 00:00:32.308 --> 00:00:34.628 Nandita, welcome to our podcast. 00:00:37.108 --> 00:00:43.288 So, Nandita, could you maybe first give us a little bit of a sketch of your 00:00:43.288 --> 00:00:50.108 professional trajectory that brought you to where you are today with also your 00:00:50.108 --> 00:00:52.268 specific view on collaboration? 00:00:53.768 --> 00:00:58.928 I graduated from 00:00:58.928 --> 00:01:11.288 University of Delhi in what seems like another lifetime ago in 1978 and did 00:01:11.288 --> 00:01:15.368 a little bit of fieldwork work with rural families after that. 00:01:15.568 --> 00:01:23.048 And after that, I joined my alma mater for teaching and have worked there for 37 years. 00:01:23.768 --> 00:01:31.428 In between, I went for my PhD on a Fulbright scholarship to the US at Clark University, 00:01:31.788 --> 00:01:38.228 which, you know, Fulbright is, I don't, I'm sure you're all familiar with it, 00:01:38.228 --> 00:01:39.888 Julia, you would be familiar with it. 00:01:40.048 --> 00:01:47.308 Fulbright is a wonderful opportunity for people from other countries to get together. 00:01:47.488 --> 00:01:57.468 But the excitement of joining the Fulbright program came with a lot of. 00:01:59.733 --> 00:02:03.673 Undisclosed power dynamics um 00:02:03.673 --> 00:02:06.953 so for uh we we 00:02:06.953 --> 00:02:10.253 went for our what is called a pre uh 00:02:10.253 --> 00:02:13.693 for bright training at wharton in 00:02:13.693 --> 00:02:21.373 pennsylvania and that was when i began to see the side of academic collaborations 00:02:21.373 --> 00:02:27.973 which you know till then i was just this wide-eyed uh young scholar and i thought 00:02:27.973 --> 00:02:30.953 Not everybody would just welcome us with open arms and, 00:02:30.993 --> 00:02:34.293 you know, we could say what we liked and give our reviews. 00:02:34.513 --> 00:02:38.813 So I became aware of very quickly. 00:02:38.953 --> 00:02:47.553 So we've grown up in large families and, you know, very used to watching for cues from other people. 00:02:48.433 --> 00:02:52.933 Either way. So if somebody welcomes you, you're quick to pick it up. 00:02:52.933 --> 00:03:01.453 And if somebody tries to sort of ignore you, I mean, even ignoring is a social cue, right? 00:03:02.253 --> 00:03:09.073 So with that kind of social training as a child and as an adolescent, 00:03:09.593 --> 00:03:16.493 I was far perhaps maybe too sensitive to some of these cues. 00:03:16.633 --> 00:03:21.933 It could have been nicer. I wouldn't have noticed many things. So in that training. 00:03:23.733 --> 00:03:33.593 Orientation training, I realized that actually we were informed that when Fulbright 00:03:33.593 --> 00:03:36.573 scholars travel from the U.S. 00:03:36.573 --> 00:03:39.733 To other countries, they go as experts. 00:03:40.133 --> 00:03:45.673 And when Fulbright scholars come into the U.S., they come to learn. 00:03:45.673 --> 00:03:54.613 So, there is a very fundamental imbalance in the way that the Fulbright Scholarship worked. 00:03:54.833 --> 00:03:58.733 And yet, you still have the same label. 00:04:00.309 --> 00:04:03.549 So there's no difference in the label. 00:04:03.889 --> 00:04:09.969 So you don't realize until you are in it that, you know, it's something. 00:04:10.429 --> 00:04:14.809 Anyway, the Fulbright experience was wonderful. 00:04:15.129 --> 00:04:19.149 I learned so much and I was pretty good at computers. 00:04:19.329 --> 00:04:26.389 I really enjoyed deep based in the old format. And I picked up stuff in Clark University. 00:04:26.529 --> 00:04:29.449 Then it was wonderful. wonderful i decided to 00:04:29.449 --> 00:04:33.829 make the best of it um i had 00:04:33.829 --> 00:04:36.629 two young children and you know decided that i 00:04:36.629 --> 00:04:39.989 couldn't leave them behind for nine months so 00:04:39.989 --> 00:04:48.109 i on a shoestring budget we invested all our savings in in traveling and my 00:04:48.109 --> 00:04:55.509 husband uh did join us and you know waited at tables to earn some extra money 00:04:55.509 --> 00:04:56.949 and still the usual thing, 00:04:57.109 --> 00:05:03.589 wonderful times as we remember them, but when you're going through it, it was hard. 00:05:05.069 --> 00:05:11.409 So that was my first experience of collaboration and from which I learned a 00:05:11.409 --> 00:05:15.549 lot, both academically as well as socially, as well as internationally. 00:05:16.629 --> 00:05:22.629 So I was determined that I wanted to come back because first of all, it's an exchange visa. 00:05:23.529 --> 00:05:26.589 So if you uh in my family 00:05:26.589 --> 00:05:29.709 we have four uh siblings two of 00:05:29.709 --> 00:05:33.589 my siblings are very successfully uh 00:05:33.589 --> 00:05:43.309 integrated into the american community one was an iit engineer he still is and 00:05:43.309 --> 00:05:49.829 a technocrat and my sister was a pediatrician so you know we were i mean we 00:05:49.829 --> 00:05:52.509 were all very successful academically So, 00:05:52.669 --> 00:05:59.729 when I had traveled to the US before that, we had seen a very different America. 00:06:01.804 --> 00:06:06.484 And when I went as a scholar, I don't know if you know Worcester, 00:06:06.684 --> 00:06:10.324 which is close to Boston, where Clark University is. 00:06:10.544 --> 00:06:13.384 It was literally in a dump. 00:06:14.364 --> 00:06:18.464 And I saw the side of America that I hadn't seen. 00:06:18.464 --> 00:06:24.464 So again, you know, in terms of experiences, that side of it, 00:06:24.504 --> 00:06:31.704 it was known as a sort of area where Vietnamese immigrants choose to live. 00:06:32.364 --> 00:06:37.344 Many of them who didn't even speak English. So I was actually in that school, 00:06:37.444 --> 00:06:39.464 I was perhaps the most qualified. 00:06:39.544 --> 00:06:42.544 So they put me on the board of the school, which was good fun. 00:06:43.464 --> 00:06:52.384 So that was my initiation into the taste of international politics, 00:06:52.684 --> 00:06:57.744 the beauty of it, the wonder of collaboration, 00:06:58.124 --> 00:07:02.604 as well as the power struggle of wanting to speak. 00:07:02.604 --> 00:07:14.044 I had a good mentor, and she kind of told me that she didn't really understand my work. 00:07:14.244 --> 00:07:20.864 So it was halfway through my PhD that I went because she doesn't know the language. 00:07:21.704 --> 00:07:28.724 But she was very happy to let me express myself, learn whatever I wanted. 00:07:28.724 --> 00:07:35.064 And I remember I used to write my essays for class. 00:07:35.284 --> 00:07:40.804 She used to call them squibs and everyone else would type them and we didn't 00:07:40.804 --> 00:07:44.184 have a computer until halfway through. 00:07:45.544 --> 00:07:51.564 And I remember her saying that I miss your handwriting because your essays always 00:07:51.564 --> 00:07:54.364 add something different to offer. 00:07:54.624 --> 00:08:00.004 So little things like this where your disadvantage advantage seemed to be like 00:08:00.004 --> 00:08:04.644 an advantage, but wasn't really an advantage. So, uh. 00:08:07.385 --> 00:08:14.765 I returned to India to my job. I was on leave again in the university and very happy to come back. 00:08:14.925 --> 00:08:20.165 The label of the Fulbright did a lot for my future. 00:08:20.345 --> 00:08:24.625 So, you became like someone who has returned from a U.S. university. 00:08:25.145 --> 00:08:34.265 And I got the taste of what it is to publish more and to speak in ways 00:08:34.665 --> 00:08:41.425 where you could present your work to someone who doesn't know the background. 00:08:42.945 --> 00:08:46.605 So little things I would say about, let's say, multiple mothering, 00:08:46.605 --> 00:08:48.625 people would be astonished. 00:08:48.765 --> 00:08:53.405 I mean, students in class, scholars at conferences, many went. 00:08:53.485 --> 00:08:58.225 So that taste of that, you know, people enjoying what you say, 00:08:58.385 --> 00:09:01.545 even though they don't know the context, how much to explain, 00:09:01.905 --> 00:09:10.325 and the balance between not wanting to romanticize India, because I think all 00:09:10.325 --> 00:09:16.165 cultures have their problems as well as their beauty. 00:09:16.725 --> 00:09:22.345 I always wanted to make sure that I didn't want to land up, and that was actually 00:09:22.345 --> 00:09:27.125 my kids and my husband were always, look, don't make it sound like it's the 00:09:27.125 --> 00:09:29.125 best place on earth, because it isn't. 00:09:29.685 --> 00:09:37.785 So, that balancing and grounding has always come from my family, actually. 00:09:38.045 --> 00:09:43.525 Which department did you return to when you went back to your university? 00:09:44.105 --> 00:09:50.885 I was in the Department of Human Development and Childhood Studies in the university. 00:09:51.845 --> 00:09:54.465 It comes under the umbrella of home economics. 00:09:57.717 --> 00:10:03.837 And, you know, but when I, for my first ride, I went to the Department of Psychology. 00:10:04.537 --> 00:10:09.297 Okay. So it was, it could be called the discipline of child psychology is where 00:10:09.297 --> 00:10:11.237 I was. Child psychology and family studies. 00:10:11.757 --> 00:10:17.737 Right. But then from there and from your role as an academic in India, 00:10:17.937 --> 00:10:23.457 you also became active in many different organizations and bodies, 00:10:23.717 --> 00:10:26.037 right? So you didn't stay inside academia. 00:10:26.717 --> 00:10:35.537 No. No, because when I returned, the institution in which I work has a very 00:10:35.537 --> 00:10:38.017 high commitment to community development. 00:10:38.617 --> 00:10:46.017 So it was always told to us that in a poor country, you cannot afford just to write academic papers. 00:10:46.097 --> 00:10:50.857 You need to be involved with society, with decision making, with administration. 00:10:50.857 --> 00:10:56.417 So don't just do that part of it, do your work for development, 00:10:56.637 --> 00:10:58.317 share your knowledge with others. 00:10:58.637 --> 00:11:04.537 So that, you know, parent meetings, teacher training programs, 00:11:05.117 --> 00:11:08.337 high court, child custody issues. 00:11:08.337 --> 00:11:11.957 So these were the other things in which I became involved, 00:11:12.177 --> 00:11:20.857 along with which the label and the successful completion of Hopeful Bright gave 00:11:20.857 --> 00:11:25.237 me the entry into international conferences, 00:11:25.557 --> 00:11:28.137 how you write papers, how you present yourself. 00:11:28.877 --> 00:11:31.717 How you prepare presentations. 00:11:31.717 --> 00:11:34.857 Presentations so i was able to 00:11:34.857 --> 00:11:38.477 keep these different sides 00:11:38.477 --> 00:11:45.137 of the only thing i never really enjoyed was administration so i'll be honest 00:11:45.137 --> 00:11:51.737 when i had to do it uh it was a headache and i had to do it twice over so it's 00:11:51.737 --> 00:11:55.977 the six years of headship of my department and i wasn't happy doing that. 00:11:56.077 --> 00:11:58.757 It took away time from doing the things I love. 00:11:59.297 --> 00:12:05.617 And Nandita, currently, what are your main activities in that trajectory? 00:12:05.977 --> 00:12:07.737 Where do you spend most of your time on? 00:12:08.457 --> 00:12:15.297 Okay, so I chose to quit my work in 2016. 00:12:15.377 --> 00:12:21.857 I would have been on the faculty till 2022, but. 00:12:22.771 --> 00:12:27.611 For personal reasons, my husband was posted in Bombay and I hadn't had enough. 00:12:27.731 --> 00:12:33.291 My kids had left and they were studying and they got married and left the country. 00:12:33.731 --> 00:12:36.651 And I decided I just didn't want to stay alone. 00:12:37.011 --> 00:12:42.291 And I wanted to do, I just quit actually. 00:12:42.471 --> 00:12:45.871 In retrospect, I can attribute reasons. 00:12:46.771 --> 00:12:52.411 But that time, people said, why don't you take leave? I said, no, I want a clean break. 00:12:52.771 --> 00:12:57.231 From academics, from teaching, not from academics. 00:12:57.771 --> 00:13:03.951 Now, Nandita, if we focus a minute on the work that you have done over the years 00:13:03.951 --> 00:13:09.711 in terms of looking at patterns of child care in families, 00:13:10.531 --> 00:13:15.211 perhaps now that you have a little bit of distance, you can also look at it 00:13:15.211 --> 00:13:19.651 reflecting back in a slightly different manner. 00:13:19.791 --> 00:13:23.311 And I think it would be interesting to spend a moment thinking 00:13:23.311 --> 00:13:26.291 about these patterns of child care 00:13:26.291 --> 00:13:29.191 because in a way a family is 00:13:29.191 --> 00:13:34.891 nothing but a big collaborative effort to raise children and could you perhaps 00:13:34.891 --> 00:13:44.051 um do you see different patterns in different areas rural versus urban um say 00:13:44.051 --> 00:13:47.731 let's focus on india first so uh. 00:13:49.391 --> 00:13:51.971 A lot of what, 00:13:53.331 --> 00:13:59.351 so I could never quit thinking about the family and about childhood, right? 00:13:59.451 --> 00:14:05.211 So my mind is always alert to what's going on on the street, 00:14:05.291 --> 00:14:09.671 in the neighborhood, if I'm traveling in a train or a bus or a plane. 00:14:09.751 --> 00:14:15.831 So if I see a father holding a baby, so I do a lot of posts on Facebook. 00:14:15.831 --> 00:14:18.771 Book and then I started my blog which was really 00:14:18.771 --> 00:14:25.551 to express myself which really filled in the space that teaching had left it 00:14:25.551 --> 00:14:31.931 was like an extended classroom for me so I began to sort of consolidate some 00:14:31.931 --> 00:14:36.891 of the work that I was doing and writing for the lay public, 00:14:38.091 --> 00:14:44.331 was something that although mostly I think it was just the students who were 00:14:44.331 --> 00:14:46.871 loyal to me who who were reading my blog, honestly. 00:14:47.671 --> 00:14:52.111 But I imagined a larger audience. 00:14:52.911 --> 00:14:58.871 And it also, very strangely, these ideas would come to me. 00:15:00.985 --> 00:15:05.625 A single encounter could initiate a whole article. 00:15:06.165 --> 00:15:15.385 So as I said, you see physical punishment, as you may know, is a very difficult issue. 00:15:16.385 --> 00:15:22.585 Or you hear a father saying something or you hear a grandparent doing something. 00:15:23.325 --> 00:15:30.165 It lets off, you know, like, for instance, there was just this idea when I went 00:15:30.165 --> 00:15:33.405 to Denmark, for a conference, we saw this pacifier trees. 00:15:33.685 --> 00:15:40.665 So in Denmark, I don't know if you know, they hang the, they call it dummies, 00:15:40.665 --> 00:15:44.905 or they hang them on trees so that the child has a sort of, you, 00:15:45.025 --> 00:15:47.425 okay, here, you give up your pacifiers now. 00:15:47.905 --> 00:15:53.185 So there are like Christmas decorations. I was stunned by that. 00:15:53.305 --> 00:15:56.725 And then the question came up in my head. 00:15:57.865 --> 00:16:04.385 I don't see pacifiers in India. What is behind it? So I came back and I initiated a conversation. 00:16:04.605 --> 00:16:10.245 Now, none of this is part of any formal research study, but I had students who 00:16:10.245 --> 00:16:16.285 were, I would just write to them and say, look, can you ask 10 people about 00:16:16.285 --> 00:16:18.985 this or do it as a class assignment? 00:16:19.825 --> 00:16:25.205 And we came up with, you know, sort of anecdotal responses Responses to why 00:16:25.205 --> 00:16:31.405 pacifiers are just not something that are used in India. 00:16:31.505 --> 00:16:35.585 And at the end of the day, you may give a thousand philosophical explanations, 00:16:35.685 --> 00:16:38.785 but it's a tropical country and you can get infected. 00:16:39.645 --> 00:16:48.305 Right. So, Nandita, to a very straightforward question, how do you define collaboration? 00:16:48.465 --> 00:16:51.085 What is collaboration and what is it good for? 00:16:55.242 --> 00:17:06.322 In order, I think that for academics, isolated, let me put it the other way. 00:17:06.742 --> 00:17:11.182 Academic ventures without collaboration are meaningless for me. 00:17:11.282 --> 00:17:16.782 Because unless you bounce your ideas, unless they are mirrored of someone else, 00:17:16.782 --> 00:17:25.082 Like, for instance, had I not traveled, had I not seen those pacifier trees, 00:17:25.422 --> 00:17:34.562 I would not have looked back at our families and realized, hey, this is missing. 00:17:34.822 --> 00:17:38.202 Why is it missing? when you talk 00:17:38.202 --> 00:17:41.802 about sleeping who sleeps by whom um 00:17:41.802 --> 00:17:45.042 you know i remember so clearly 00:17:45.042 --> 00:17:49.702 that uh you know students still 00:17:49.702 --> 00:17:52.542 very warmly used to 00:17:52.542 --> 00:17:55.602 talk about sleeping with their mothers when their dads were 00:17:55.602 --> 00:17:58.562 away so when it is 00:17:58.562 --> 00:18:03.622 when you see difference that 00:18:03.622 --> 00:18:08.842 you can look back at yourself so i think that collaboration is necessary not 00:18:08.842 --> 00:18:13.442 only to understand the other but also to understand the self but but now if 00:18:13.442 --> 00:18:21.282 we look at the family dynamics as you described it just earlier what makes that 00:18:21.362 --> 00:18:28.722 collaborative under what what features make interactions in a family collaborative. 00:18:30.262 --> 00:18:36.802 Um within a family or between but let's start within the family yes commonality 00:18:36.802 --> 00:18:43.042 of purpose um ideology um um consideration 00:18:43.042 --> 00:18:49.262 for each other love affection i would say so that can carry on, 00:18:49.842 --> 00:18:52.602 um i would not i have done 00:18:52.602 --> 00:18:55.522 some collaborations with people i didn't like they were 00:18:55.522 --> 00:18:59.342 never successful so for me that underlying thread 00:18:59.342 --> 00:19:06.162 of affection is very important even within the family uh you know if if i lose 00:19:06.162 --> 00:19:11.522 respect for someone so respect for the other person and his or her scholarship 00:19:11.522 --> 00:19:17.362 i have to look up to something in the other person in order to collaborate, 00:19:17.922 --> 00:19:20.822 even if it's somebody much younger than I. 00:19:20.982 --> 00:19:27.022 Sure, but can you unpack affection and love? What does that mean in that context, actually? 00:19:31.742 --> 00:19:35.562 Like conversations with the person? So the person listens to you, 00:19:35.602 --> 00:19:37.622 you listen to that person, I would say. 00:19:42.036 --> 00:19:44.976 You know the person makes you want to 00:19:44.976 --> 00:19:48.036 smile i mean it's it's it's uh if you 00:19:48.036 --> 00:19:51.016 are struggling to present yourself and 00:19:51.016 --> 00:19:54.476 also the person accepts you for who you are not 00:19:54.476 --> 00:20:00.236 what they want me to be so for example i collaborated with a project which was 00:20:00.236 --> 00:20:04.776 like 36 countries okay I was just 00:20:04.776 --> 00:20:13.376 like this passive bit of India that they wanted data from and that's it. 00:20:13.476 --> 00:20:16.816 After that, we had nothing to say, nothing to do. 00:20:16.956 --> 00:20:25.796 So unless I could speak up, I never went back to that because I realized that I had been sucked upon. 00:20:26.856 --> 00:20:30.196 Something had been sucked out of me, taken 00:20:30.196 --> 00:20:33.136 away and used in my name 00:20:33.136 --> 00:20:38.036 is there on the publications i don't you know it doesn't it's meaningless for 00:20:38.036 --> 00:20:43.716 me honestly but would you still consider that a collaboration or would that 00:20:43.716 --> 00:20:50.336 be something else is it more coercion no abuse or it's it's uh it's not a collaboration it's. 00:20:51.282 --> 00:20:59.422 Perhaps, I think it's unethical. I mean, that kind of collaboration is not acceptable to me. 00:20:59.562 --> 00:21:07.102 So, you know, at the slightest hint of it, I became better at realizing who 00:21:07.102 --> 00:21:13.202 to avoid as I went on in my, you know. 00:21:13.262 --> 00:21:20.482 And somehow, I've never been attracted by large funds. Money has never been 00:21:20.482 --> 00:21:22.902 something that I have run after. 00:21:23.042 --> 00:21:29.262 So, you know, it gives you so free to say, no, I'm not interested. 00:21:29.662 --> 00:21:35.942 So commonality of purpose is not enough in this case in academic collaboration. 00:21:36.882 --> 00:21:44.682 What about, say, a collaborative view of the family where commonality of purpose 00:21:44.682 --> 00:21:47.002 obviously is to raise children? 00:21:47.002 --> 00:21:55.542 Children, what other elements are important in the family unit to ensure successful child rearing? 00:21:56.022 --> 00:22:01.142 I think I will admit, even though I'm not good at administration myself, 00:22:01.522 --> 00:22:08.302 I will admit that you need well-defined rules and, you know, an acceptance. 00:22:08.302 --> 00:22:11.282 Acceptance and uh i have 00:22:11.282 --> 00:22:18.802 been very fortunate in the fact that not only do my husband and i share an affection 00:22:18.802 --> 00:22:23.722 and whenever i've seen that in families i can pick it up immediately but he 00:22:23.722 --> 00:22:31.162 has great regard for me as a mother so in front of the children so i see that as a very important 00:22:31.482 --> 00:22:37.222 element of uh collaboration and commonality of purpose i mean there are families 00:22:37.222 --> 00:22:41.742 in which it doesn't happen where you know there are different individuals who 00:22:41.742 --> 00:22:47.862 are living together i don't see that as a collaborative relationship so um you 00:22:47.862 --> 00:22:50.982 know this triangulation so in in. 00:22:52.731 --> 00:23:01.111 For the researchers, now, if we are talking about the researchers who are actually 00:23:01.111 --> 00:23:02.651 going out into the field, 00:23:02.951 --> 00:23:08.051 you can collaborate with them or you can give them instructions. 00:23:08.311 --> 00:23:11.071 I don't see just giving instructions as collaboration. 00:23:12.091 --> 00:23:17.731 That's right. Unless they are at the desk and there is a mutuality of discussion 00:23:17.731 --> 00:23:22.691 and they have the authority to speak up and say, no, this is wrong. 00:23:22.851 --> 00:23:24.191 You're interpreting this. 00:23:25.411 --> 00:23:34.671 I was there. I know what it's like. So I see democratic structures as a very, 00:23:34.851 --> 00:23:40.531 I don't mean democratic in the sense that my kids could do what they like. 00:23:40.531 --> 00:23:44.171 No, we were paying the bills, so we could decide, look, you can't buy this. 00:23:45.611 --> 00:23:55.371 However, for speaking up about in a research collaboration or in a family collaboration. 00:23:58.331 --> 00:24:03.931 Especially once the kids are old enough or the researcher is an expert enough, 00:24:03.991 --> 00:24:06.251 I'm using the same metaphor here. 00:24:08.831 --> 00:24:13.071 Participation in the uh in the 00:24:13.071 --> 00:24:16.191 process and the outcome and looking 00:24:16.191 --> 00:24:19.491 back at it i mean i how many times 00:24:19.491 --> 00:24:22.691 with with the kids i've sat down and you know how 00:24:22.691 --> 00:24:26.011 am i as a mother i mean so we sort of sit and 00:24:26.011 --> 00:24:28.971 evaluate and i know it wasn't always 00:24:28.971 --> 00:24:31.771 fun for them because can you please stop you know 00:24:31.771 --> 00:24:34.771 you're you're fine we are we'll be okay 00:24:34.771 --> 00:24:40.291 but uh this making the 00:24:40.291 --> 00:24:45.511 other person feel um significant 00:24:45.511 --> 00:24:55.371 for what you're collaborating towards so it's nandita you're also working Working 00:24:55.371 --> 00:25:01.131 with the Delhi High Court Mediation Center for Child Custody Cases, right, as an expert. 00:25:01.491 --> 00:25:08.671 And in some sense, those are the examples where this kind of family collaboration is breaking down. 00:25:09.771 --> 00:25:14.151 So what makes the difference in those cases? Is there a pattern to that where you say, 00:25:14.411 --> 00:25:20.811 well, across the board, across all these cases I looked at, it always breaks 00:25:20.811 --> 00:25:24.811 down along predictable patterns. Is there such a pattern to that? 00:25:28.411 --> 00:25:37.031 One of the things that I've noticed is that there is something like unhealthy 00:25:37.031 --> 00:25:43.251 love for your child or for your idea or your project. 00:25:48.186 --> 00:25:54.026 If you love, I mean, at least in the high court cases, I always said that it 00:25:54.026 --> 00:25:58.926 was not that the child is not loved, but you love the child so much that you want to own it. 00:25:59.186 --> 00:26:03.966 And if you're not getting along with someone, you're not able to get along with that other person. 00:26:04.926 --> 00:26:15.906 So in most cases of child custody, where mostly women would completely undermine the role of the father. 00:26:18.186 --> 00:26:23.986 To the child as well as to the court in order to claim ownership of the child. 00:26:24.106 --> 00:26:29.006 So running down the father was a very important, or father or his family. 00:26:29.806 --> 00:26:35.946 And I have seen grandparents. So in India, we have kin terminology that distinguishes 00:26:35.946 --> 00:26:38.606 between the maternal and the paternal grandparents. 00:26:39.026 --> 00:26:44.686 So it's very easy. In one word, you can make out which side of the family you're talking about. 00:26:45.566 --> 00:26:48.946 I've seen it even more seriously in grandparents. 00:26:50.166 --> 00:26:55.486 So they become so overpowering. The love for the daughter and for the grandchild 00:26:55.486 --> 00:26:59.306 is so much that this other person is seen as outside. 00:26:59.506 --> 00:27:04.046 And trying to even tell them that, look, the child has a right to the father. 00:27:04.746 --> 00:27:08.266 The father has a right to the child. But Nandita, 00:27:08.466 --> 00:27:17.386 is that always love with a big L or is it also instrumentalization of that child 00:27:17.386 --> 00:27:21.826 because that child is also contributing to your own future? 00:27:22.546 --> 00:27:25.346 I'm using the terminology of the client. 00:27:26.166 --> 00:27:30.946 They say it is their love for the child. I can see it differently. 00:27:30.946 --> 00:27:37.886 But who am I to put words into their mouth and to evaluate what their love is? 00:27:37.946 --> 00:27:41.846 Because ultimately, at the end of the day, I don't know the full story. 00:27:41.966 --> 00:27:45.046 I can never know the full story as the other. 00:27:45.246 --> 00:27:48.566 It is only what is presented. Some of it will be exaggerated. 00:27:48.846 --> 00:27:56.386 Some of it will be silenced. So it's, I don't know, when I'm not inside the 00:27:56.386 --> 00:28:00.626 high court, I would always be overcome with worry. 00:28:01.886 --> 00:28:07.226 About will I be able to see and do justice for the children. 00:28:07.226 --> 00:28:10.126 Because the High Court is relying on you as an expert. 00:28:10.266 --> 00:28:17.146 So in some sense, the High Court wants you to translate that love to them. So let me finish. 00:28:18.766 --> 00:28:21.186 However, when I was in the room, 00:28:22.628 --> 00:28:26.488 I never had any, I didn't have doubts. 00:28:28.828 --> 00:28:33.508 Somehow I could see and I would just write out if I did have, 00:28:34.528 --> 00:28:37.008 so I was never asked to appear. 00:28:37.128 --> 00:28:39.828 I would be asked to give a written report. 00:28:40.808 --> 00:28:47.868 So if there were areas, I would write out exactly what I thought. 00:28:50.348 --> 00:28:54.048 Was happening there. right and 00:28:54.048 --> 00:29:01.608 what the recommendation would be so i would always insist that you know i don't 00:29:01.608 --> 00:29:10.668 know i mean we have so much uh you know media coverage of uh, 00:29:12.088 --> 00:29:20.368 women's issues in my experience i have found that in cases of family dynamics 00:29:20.368 --> 00:29:26.568 it is really the a father who suffers far more, in my experience. 00:29:26.668 --> 00:29:28.968 Maybe I'm wrong. 00:29:29.868 --> 00:29:34.608 But the claim that the mother has and the ease with which fathers are dismissed, 00:29:35.588 --> 00:29:38.268 I cannot speak of other countries. 00:29:38.328 --> 00:29:42.248 I don't know the legal dynamics there. there but um 00:29:42.248 --> 00:29:45.348 i see that 00:29:45.348 --> 00:29:53.268 as a very uh critical loss for the children who are growing up in how do you 00:29:53.268 --> 00:30:02.988 explain that is that the bias in the system or um um i think we over dramatize uh. 00:30:04.668 --> 00:30:07.308 Motherhood yes I would say that there is a 00:30:07.308 --> 00:30:10.768 lot of romanticism about being mother and 00:30:10.768 --> 00:30:16.748 you know with Bollywood and you have things of okay if you've had your mother's 00:30:16.748 --> 00:30:22.028 milk uh then you are you know it binds you forever and you know all that kind 00:30:22.028 --> 00:30:30.008 of uh I I don't really buy into that I could see how much of that is just hyperbolic but. 00:30:32.054 --> 00:30:36.114 I don't see that much in terms of fatherhood. 00:30:36.734 --> 00:30:43.114 It hasn't kept pace with so and we have very, 00:30:44.654 --> 00:30:54.254 serious feminist movements which all they do I mean they do protect women against 00:30:54.254 --> 00:30:57.554 abuse and And I'm not saying that that's not an important issue, 00:30:57.654 --> 00:31:07.574 but to ensure that we don't lose sight of the place of every member in the family, 00:31:07.674 --> 00:31:08.554 including grandparents. 00:31:09.054 --> 00:31:12.494 I mean, in Indian families, grandparents play a key role. 00:31:12.494 --> 00:31:24.694 So the politics of the family is something that is very hard to describe, but often easy to sense. 00:31:28.534 --> 00:31:32.534 But now, do you apply certain models to that? 00:31:32.674 --> 00:31:38.654 Do you have, let's say, an X number of models of family dynamic and say, 00:31:38.754 --> 00:31:41.474 oh, this is model one and this is model two? 00:31:41.474 --> 00:31:44.514 No i don't no i 00:31:44.514 --> 00:31:51.234 do it just really from the seat of my chair because i'm not trained as a counselor 00:31:51.234 --> 00:31:58.454 and uh they kept calling me back i kept saying look i'm not trained in counseling 00:31:58.454 --> 00:32:04.014 but one thing did happen which is the reason why i um. 00:32:06.470 --> 00:32:18.190 Eased off is that I didn't know how to stand back and just return to my life. 00:32:18.330 --> 00:32:23.970 So I would, you know, I would ruminate over these cases and I would talk to 00:32:23.970 --> 00:32:29.410 my children and I would come home and I'd talk to my husband and like, how can people do this? 00:32:29.450 --> 00:32:31.790 So that was taking a toll on me. 00:32:32.510 --> 00:32:35.310 So when i uh quit work and i moved 00:32:35.310 --> 00:32:39.270 to bombay i was quite relieved and 00:32:39.270 --> 00:32:42.190 i haven't actually told them that i've come back to delhi 00:32:42.190 --> 00:32:49.650 so you can see that somewhere it was taking um too much of my i it would just 00:32:49.650 --> 00:32:57.670 break my heart to um and i didn't know i wasn't trained to uh protect myself 00:32:57.670 --> 00:33:00.470 from In these cases, Nandita, 00:33:00.630 --> 00:33:05.490 is there a pattern in terms of the base family dynamics? 00:33:05.490 --> 00:33:12.630 For example, I recall some of the descriptions you made earlier in the context 00:33:12.630 --> 00:33:18.090 of the attachment and bonding form about families where the father took a primary 00:33:18.090 --> 00:33:23.930 role in caregiving because the women were going to the market working outside. 00:33:23.930 --> 00:33:30.130 And so I'm asking, do you see patterns of behavior where there's this major breakdown? 00:33:30.630 --> 00:33:33.790 You speak of where the fathers suffer. 00:33:34.210 --> 00:33:42.870 Is it in families where the fathers are playing a primary care role or a secondary? No, the secondary. 00:33:43.290 --> 00:33:47.770 It is one thing I noticed very clearly. 00:33:47.870 --> 00:34:00.150 When the maternal grandparents are too close to the mother and participate in 00:34:00.150 --> 00:34:04.410 every single decision that she takes. 00:34:05.650 --> 00:34:08.330 That is the situation that i have 00:34:08.330 --> 00:34:12.010 seen very often and that isolates the farm so 00:34:12.010 --> 00:34:18.050 in fact uh my problem although it's a patriarchal unit and you know indian families 00:34:18.050 --> 00:34:25.590 by and large not all are patriarchal by and large uh you live with and closer 00:34:25.590 --> 00:34:29.990 to your paternal grandparents i see the 00:34:30.090 --> 00:34:33.850 mother and mother's mother. 00:34:34.130 --> 00:34:37.170 When this bond is too strong, 00:34:39.550 --> 00:34:46.910 at least four or five of the cases were such that my precious girl, 00:34:48.230 --> 00:34:50.890 how could this happen to her? 00:34:53.370 --> 00:34:58.090 In fact, I'm realizing this as I'm speaking with you uh. 00:35:01.393 --> 00:35:04.173 I see that as, and not so much. 00:35:04.313 --> 00:35:11.853 Of course, this also would play out far more in relationships where the couple 00:35:11.853 --> 00:35:15.033 were not terribly close to each other or didn't get along. 00:35:15.313 --> 00:35:20.853 So it exacerbated that. But the mother is too close to her mother, 00:35:20.953 --> 00:35:22.553 hasn't been able to disengage. 00:35:22.953 --> 00:35:29.453 Nandita, doesn't it also play a role that the parents of the wife, 00:35:29.453 --> 00:35:38.673 of the mother in some sense also often have committed a dowry into the wedding does that not, 00:35:39.333 --> 00:35:44.833 strengthen or amplify their concerns like oh we have actually put our life savings 00:35:44.833 --> 00:35:51.973 into this and now it's that we stand to lose it all that's information i would not have access to, 00:35:53.233 --> 00:35:56.233 I have not heard I have not heard anyone 00:35:56.233 --> 00:36:05.633 say that it's mostly that you know the people who come into the high court for 00:36:05.633 --> 00:36:13.533 mediation were mostly middle and upper middle class not all were highly educated so in which. 00:36:16.353 --> 00:36:23.553 Which, the case of dowry did come up when one couple was trying to divide property. 00:36:24.993 --> 00:36:29.333 But not as I invested in my daughter. 00:36:30.233 --> 00:36:36.053 Maybe it's there at the back of the mind, but it never surfaced during in my experience at all. 00:36:36.673 --> 00:36:39.653 But now also, you mentioned this power imbalance. 00:36:39.653 --> 00:36:47.653 Do you see that as a major underlying factor that, for instance, 00:36:48.093 --> 00:36:56.673 the wife-mother with her parents have developed so much of a dominance in the 00:36:56.673 --> 00:36:58.393 discussion, in the discourse, 00:36:58.773 --> 00:37:06.133 that the man-husband without, let's say, family support is sort of a minority 00:37:06.133 --> 00:37:08.333 and cannot push back against that? 00:37:08.333 --> 00:37:14.233 So are these power relationships important here? 00:37:15.653 --> 00:37:18.413 Absolutely i would say that they're 00:37:18.413 --> 00:37:21.453 critical here and um in in the case 00:37:21.453 --> 00:37:25.093 of one uh grandparent of the 00:37:25.093 --> 00:37:28.273 uh the paternal grandparent also 00:37:28.273 --> 00:37:30.973 it's it's crazy but in 00:37:30.973 --> 00:37:34.393 all of these cases there has been the role 00:37:34.393 --> 00:37:37.313 of the grandparents has been critical but then you 00:37:37.313 --> 00:37:40.293 know knowing the indian family that's not coming as a surprise 00:37:40.293 --> 00:37:43.393 so i don't know how often it 00:37:43.393 --> 00:37:46.493 is that it's just two people 00:37:46.493 --> 00:37:52.193 who are falling out of love with each other i don't remember a single case like 00:37:52.193 --> 00:37:58.733 that right but that raises the next question right but what what defines the 00:37:58.733 --> 00:38:05.993 force behind the power is it also the husband having fear of losing face? 00:38:07.013 --> 00:38:17.593 Is it fear of being, let's say, confronted with emotion or to lose love of the 00:38:17.593 --> 00:38:20.013 wife and her family or lose the children? 00:38:20.173 --> 00:38:22.233 So what are the underlying forces? 00:38:22.853 --> 00:38:25.033 Mostly the loss of face. 00:38:25.813 --> 00:38:29.133 And I would say the loss of face for the daughter 00:38:29.133 --> 00:38:31.953 and the daughter's family would in the 00:38:31.953 --> 00:38:35.093 traditional system be far 00:38:35.093 --> 00:38:38.093 more serious than for the man this is something 00:38:38.093 --> 00:38:42.893 you hear all the time in India that it's much easier for men I don't know about 00:38:42.893 --> 00:38:49.733 the west I don't know about you know Germany for instance but here we keep saying 00:38:49.733 --> 00:38:54.833 that it's it's very easy for a man to get remarried much harder for a woman 00:38:54.833 --> 00:38:57.593 to get remarried especially if there are children. 00:39:00.213 --> 00:39:06.153 I think the loss of pace issue is there for all it's not but it something has 00:39:06.153 --> 00:39:08.133 changed in the last 10 years and, 00:39:10.503 --> 00:39:19.503 It's far more common in the families, at least now that I'm not practicing for 00:39:19.503 --> 00:39:24.763 the last so many years, among our acquaintances to break off. 00:39:25.583 --> 00:39:29.343 Now people say, now we're not going to stay together like our parents. 00:39:29.423 --> 00:39:33.403 It's not something that I'm going to tolerate. 00:39:33.723 --> 00:39:41.143 So a lot of women are standing up and walking out. and some people in the older 00:39:41.143 --> 00:39:45.583 generation you hear them saying that women are becoming too intolerant. 00:39:46.883 --> 00:39:51.203 And you know families are 00:39:51.203 --> 00:39:54.623 breaking so the change is very significant 00:39:54.623 --> 00:39:57.383 in all social classes I would say 00:39:57.383 --> 00:40:00.363 my the person who works in my house her daughter 00:40:00.363 --> 00:40:03.143 has married this is her 00:40:03.143 --> 00:40:07.223 she was engaged aged it broke off she got married she broke it off because she 00:40:07.223 --> 00:40:11.763 didn't like the guy she's now married to a third person has a child but doesn't 00:40:11.763 --> 00:40:16.123 like to live in the village and she's living with the next to next door to her 00:40:16.123 --> 00:40:20.443 mother and raising her child so it's becoming far more acceptable, 00:40:21.223 --> 00:40:25.043 in cities and towns to 00:40:25.043 --> 00:40:28.003 break off villages i would 00:40:28.003 --> 00:40:30.923 say it's still harder so okay but there is 00:40:30.923 --> 00:40:33.863 a a paradox in that right because earlier 00:40:33.863 --> 00:40:39.863 you said that often it's the man who has the short end of the stick in your 00:40:39.863 --> 00:40:47.123 experience while another it also is the case that the man apparently has much 00:40:47.123 --> 00:40:51.543 more opportunity to just leave and break off the whole the whole marriage and go. 00:40:52.409 --> 00:40:56.249 Well, I don't, that's what people say. I'm not sure. 00:40:56.369 --> 00:40:59.889 In my experience, I think men have the short end of the stick. 00:41:00.009 --> 00:41:06.089 Like even with my helper's daughter, who's now gone through a second marriage, 00:41:06.289 --> 00:41:11.769 I feel bad for the guy because she just told him, I don't like living in the village. 00:41:11.869 --> 00:41:14.929 And, you know, either you come and live here or we are done. 00:41:14.929 --> 00:41:34.689 So, patriarchy perhaps is based on the fragility of men. 00:41:34.829 --> 00:41:38.629 I don't know. I mean, I'm just speculating. 00:41:39.169 --> 00:41:44.569 So, there are different ramifications of this, right? So we looked at family 00:41:44.569 --> 00:41:50.069 structure, also in your experience, especially in the Indian context. 00:41:50.629 --> 00:41:58.349 And this raises, of course, the question whether the family is sort of the proto-collaborative unit. 00:41:58.929 --> 00:42:04.569 So you could also say from an evolutionary perspective, that's how collaboration 00:42:04.569 --> 00:42:08.849 emerged. It started with family units or larger family units, 00:42:08.989 --> 00:42:13.229 and from there, it developed and became more structured. 00:42:13.349 --> 00:42:19.889 Is that how you would see it? Do you really see the family unit as the proto-form of collaboration? 00:42:22.329 --> 00:42:28.069 Even autobiographically, I would say that my family, I learned so much, 00:42:28.149 --> 00:42:33.549 and I was so sensitive to what I didn't learn from my family as well. 00:42:33.549 --> 00:42:37.509 So it's not just what you learn, but what you realize, oh my God, 00:42:37.709 --> 00:42:42.729 I never knew this, or my mother never pointed this out to me. 00:42:44.029 --> 00:42:47.769 So in my judgment. 00:42:50.717 --> 00:42:57.897 Family screws you for life, sorry for what, you know, all of us have been impacted 00:42:57.897 --> 00:43:00.397 by the families in which we've grown up. 00:43:01.557 --> 00:43:06.777 You can either be very sensitive to the issue or you react to it, 00:43:06.797 --> 00:43:09.397 but you can never be indifferent to what you experience. 00:43:09.397 --> 00:43:16.697 So, for instance, if there is an alcoholic father, let's just take a severe 00:43:16.697 --> 00:43:22.817 example, you would either become like that yourself, and I'm not saying family is destiny. 00:43:22.817 --> 00:43:29.657 I mean, it's not that you cannot get out of it, but or you will become so sensitive. 00:43:29.797 --> 00:43:39.217 You will never remain indifferent to the serious aspects of what you have experienced. 00:43:40.037 --> 00:43:43.177 I don't really know if this is what you wanted to talk about. 00:43:43.177 --> 00:43:48.577 The other aspect is, and that's also what Julia mentioned at the beginning, 00:43:48.797 --> 00:43:54.277 one of the issues that you also insist on is cultural difference. 00:43:54.617 --> 00:43:58.797 To say, look, there's no universality here. And that's also your example of 00:43:58.797 --> 00:44:04.217 your Fulbright experience, the asymmetry in the perception of that. 00:44:04.217 --> 00:44:07.937 So now we can look again at this family model of collaboration, 00:44:08.297 --> 00:44:15.297 and then what are the cultural differences that you see there, if any? 00:44:17.117 --> 00:44:19.857 Well, I think that, you know…. 00:44:24.151 --> 00:44:31.251 The power that the older generation exerts on the younger, 00:44:32.511 --> 00:44:39.391 places certain limits that I see being crossed in other cultures. 00:44:41.371 --> 00:44:49.911 Where obligatory actions are not seen as something, I'm not going to just appear 00:44:49.911 --> 00:44:54.691 for this ceremony because the family is getting together because I'm obliged to you. 00:44:55.131 --> 00:45:01.631 Whereas here, a lot of time is spent in that, you know, a peace. 00:45:01.851 --> 00:45:08.511 I don't know if it's appeasement would be too much, but you also get back in 00:45:08.511 --> 00:45:10.871 these asymmetrical relationships. 00:45:11.151 --> 00:45:14.791 And believe me, by asymmetrical, I don't mean undemocratic. 00:45:16.331 --> 00:45:24.811 It may be, you know, paradoxical what I'm trying to say Because I think asymmetry 00:45:24.811 --> 00:45:31.091 is a key fact of human relationships, 00:45:31.351 --> 00:45:38.411 but that doesn't imply absolute power over others, because that would be unacceptable. 00:45:39.571 --> 00:45:44.691 You know, it would be an unhealthy relationship to live in. 00:45:44.691 --> 00:45:56.751 But as often as that I have seen enmeshed relationships in the name of what love be as hurtful, 00:45:58.011 --> 00:46:03.511 towards others because when you have that much affection for one person it's 00:46:03.511 --> 00:46:11.891 always at the expense of others so if you have two children you have to have a certain sense of, 00:46:12.951 --> 00:46:13.811 you know. 00:46:15.825 --> 00:46:19.285 Equity between the two relationships. 00:46:19.885 --> 00:46:25.805 So, in spite of the hierarchical structures, 00:46:26.225 --> 00:46:34.885 there has to be a sense of justice in order for there to be genuine and happy collaboration, 00:46:35.345 --> 00:46:37.605 whether it's families or professions. 00:46:38.125 --> 00:46:42.845 An important aspect in collaboration is also a notion of trust. 00:46:43.265 --> 00:46:51.185 Is trust in some sense encapsulated in this sense of love that you spoke about earlier? 00:46:51.365 --> 00:46:54.485 Is that also trust or is that something else? 00:46:57.005 --> 00:47:06.125 I'll give you an example of a collaboration that I did where I came to realize 00:47:06.125 --> 00:47:08.205 how critical trust was for me. 00:47:08.205 --> 00:47:11.625 Um perhaps because i 00:47:11.625 --> 00:47:15.165 have had a very trusting um 00:47:15.165 --> 00:47:18.645 very trusting parents 00:47:18.645 --> 00:47:26.705 and grandparents with many other faults but they trusted us uh and and we trusted 00:47:26.705 --> 00:47:32.725 that our love for them and the fact that they would provide for us there was 00:47:32.725 --> 00:47:35.525 a collaboration that we did in which um. 00:47:36.998 --> 00:47:42.738 For the first time, rather than doing observations of children in the home. 00:47:43.978 --> 00:47:48.678 We decided, the person decided that he wanted to do a lab study. 00:47:49.478 --> 00:47:53.798 Okay, so please set up a lab because we want a structured setting. 00:47:54.278 --> 00:47:58.858 So we set up a lab. We tried getting parents to come. 00:47:59.158 --> 00:48:03.018 And parents, these are parents of 12 to 18-month-old children. 00:48:03.018 --> 00:48:06.578 So we had somebody would relatives have 00:48:06.578 --> 00:48:09.658 come or somebody would fall sick you didn't get 00:48:09.658 --> 00:48:13.058 transport then we said okay so at 00:48:13.058 --> 00:48:19.038 every point we tried to communicate with the person who had given the grant 00:48:19.038 --> 00:48:24.618 and who was the project director to say look okay let's try making satellite 00:48:24.618 --> 00:48:31.718 labs so let's find Find an institution closer to the residential areas, 00:48:31.858 --> 00:48:34.478 get a group of kids together, and let them come. 00:48:35.058 --> 00:48:43.158 It was so hard to find safe places that would fulfill the requirement and pay rent for these. 00:48:44.178 --> 00:48:49.858 In the end, we were able to get only one-fourth of the target sample, 00:48:50.138 --> 00:48:56.458 whereas we had never had a problem in home-based studies because parents are very welcoming. 00:48:56.458 --> 00:48:59.238 Oh, you've landed up? Okay, let's accommodate you. 00:48:59.338 --> 00:49:04.458 But to take the initiative to come out to a lab, even though, 00:49:04.558 --> 00:49:12.018 so he was a German professor, so he said, but they gave you an appointment. 00:49:12.318 --> 00:49:16.238 I said, look, they may have, but they haven't landed up. 00:49:17.338 --> 00:49:20.118 It was so hard for me to communicate. decade 00:49:20.118 --> 00:49:23.158 so at that point that person wrote an 00:49:23.158 --> 00:49:26.298 email to me saying that your research 00:49:26.298 --> 00:49:29.718 staff that you know something about i 00:49:29.718 --> 00:49:33.198 trusted you with this and i just lost 00:49:33.198 --> 00:49:38.698 that is one direct um 00:49:38.698 --> 00:49:41.358 you know email exchange that i have 00:49:41.358 --> 00:49:44.318 had with this person and of course he's and we 00:49:44.318 --> 00:49:47.538 had a long-standing in collaboration and he's we 00:49:47.538 --> 00:49:50.578 have a mutual friend whom I hold in very 00:49:50.578 --> 00:49:53.898 high regard and I tried but after 00:49:53.898 --> 00:49:56.658 that I just decided I said you know 00:49:56.658 --> 00:50:00.258 when that you haven't understood the setting 00:50:00.258 --> 00:50:06.398 in which we were and he's not it's not that he wasn't familiar with the he's 00:50:06.398 --> 00:50:11.118 traveled to India he's lived with us and you know lived in my home I've never 00:50:11.118 --> 00:50:15.358 had problems with extending understanding hospitality because i know how hard 00:50:15.358 --> 00:50:17.918 it is to do field work in india, 00:50:18.818 --> 00:50:23.698 and at the end of the day to say that you didn't finish what was your commitment 00:50:23.698 --> 00:50:32.158 and i trusted you to do that that was for me uh you know a closed issue i just 00:50:32.158 --> 00:50:36.038 would not want to collaborate with something like this because Because... 00:50:37.917 --> 00:50:44.157 I don't know why but I expect people to trust me 100% and I do the same with 00:50:44.157 --> 00:50:50.997 someone else when often in personal relationships if I'm disappointed then I'm 00:50:50.997 --> 00:50:52.437 really badly disappointed. 00:50:52.997 --> 00:51:07.177 So you're absolutely right, being trusted for me is perhaps even more important than trusting. 00:51:07.357 --> 00:51:10.857 Because Indians are known as shifty-eyed or whatever. 00:51:11.177 --> 00:51:17.157 I mean, they're poor, so they will misappropriate funds. 00:51:17.277 --> 00:51:22.377 I'm very sensitive to those, even if they are hinted at. 00:51:22.957 --> 00:51:28.337 But now in the context of the family dynamic that you also studied, 00:51:28.517 --> 00:51:32.517 there are different trust-based relations, right? 00:51:32.517 --> 00:51:40.397 Also, the children trust their parents, they trust their family almost as a given. 00:51:41.857 --> 00:51:47.697 So what's the dynamics of trust there? How does it get built up and how does it get destroyed? 00:51:54.457 --> 00:51:59.177 How it would get destroyed is very hard for me to say. 00:51:59.177 --> 00:52:05.857 How it is built up is that it's tied so closely to the issue of affection and 00:52:05.857 --> 00:52:08.077 love that I was talking about, 00:52:08.297 --> 00:52:18.677 because I cannot imagine love without trust and trust without love. 00:52:19.577 --> 00:52:23.177 This is really interesting, right? Because if we now start to generalize, 00:52:23.737 --> 00:52:27.537 let's now look at collaboration, the big picture type collaboration, 00:52:27.537 --> 00:52:30.437 like your project with 30 partners. 00:52:30.917 --> 00:52:35.137 And their standard view is, well, you need shared goals and you need trust. 00:52:36.217 --> 00:52:40.117 But now, does it actually imply that what we're really talking about is also 00:52:40.117 --> 00:52:46.297 love for that conglomerate, love for those goals? 00:52:46.537 --> 00:52:51.957 Would you find that a plausible generalization? Or is that notion of trust actually 00:52:51.957 --> 00:52:54.257 something else than the trust inside the family? 00:52:54.257 --> 00:52:59.497 I would say that the minute it becomes, 00:52:59.817 --> 00:53:11.137 when an idea becomes an industry, when it becomes, I do believe that a small group is far more, 00:53:11.397 --> 00:53:18.277 you know, it's far more possible to be trustworthy and to be trusting in a smaller group. 00:53:18.277 --> 00:53:25.957 When there are these 30 countries and 30 or let's say 60 different collaborations 00:53:25.957 --> 00:53:28.557 with satellite members, 00:53:28.977 --> 00:53:34.897 I have experienced that there is…. 00:53:36.207 --> 00:53:41.127 A lack of trust. Okay, so how did you get this? Or what did you mean by this? Why is this missing? 00:53:42.067 --> 00:53:49.287 The way in which the questions go and perhaps because the template of the family 00:53:49.287 --> 00:53:56.287 is so strong in my heart that I tend to want to work with people whom I like 00:53:56.287 --> 00:54:00.107 to spend time with and that's just not possible in a large group. 00:54:00.327 --> 00:54:03.527 So perhaps that's why I quit work at a certain point 00:54:03.527 --> 00:54:07.727 and you know reduce the but 00:54:07.727 --> 00:54:10.807 now if we could engineer it right if 00:54:10.807 --> 00:54:14.127 we could engineer trust also in those environments 00:54:14.127 --> 00:54:17.407 how would you change the process 00:54:17.407 --> 00:54:23.187 or change the participants imagine you would have a magic power to change the 00:54:23.187 --> 00:54:29.227 participants and the process what would you change to see i i would look for 00:54:29.227 --> 00:54:36.347 someone who was a mentor-like person at every nodal point. 00:54:36.727 --> 00:54:47.767 There needs to be someone who would be someone who is easy to trust, 00:54:48.147 --> 00:54:51.547 easy to like, a likable person. 00:54:51.747 --> 00:54:55.847 I mean, all the things that we perhaps don't look for when we are hiring people. 00:54:56.387 --> 00:54:58.967 You're looking for communication skills. 00:54:59.567 --> 00:55:06.007 I remember a story from when my children were young. 00:55:08.107 --> 00:55:14.487 And it was the first time my kids were going to daycare. 00:55:14.547 --> 00:55:18.447 The daycare was at the ground floor of the department. 00:55:18.447 --> 00:55:28.147 The department and we had an elderly maternal sort of person who was the creche 00:55:28.147 --> 00:55:33.527 in charge and she had helped us to do a lot of the physical work and at some 00:55:33.527 --> 00:55:36.387 point somebody complained that she is not. 00:55:37.611 --> 00:55:41.151 Stimulating the children enough so 00:55:41.151 --> 00:55:44.751 our um director of 00:55:44.751 --> 00:55:47.691 the institution uh just sat us down and 00:55:47.691 --> 00:55:50.491 we were i mean i was younger at that time 00:55:50.491 --> 00:55:53.351 and we had this whole idea that kids should be 00:55:53.351 --> 00:55:56.091 kept actively engaged and they should 00:55:56.091 --> 00:55:58.991 have lots of activities and stuff 00:55:58.991 --> 00:56:01.911 she said simple thing do the 00:56:01.911 --> 00:56:05.251 children go to her or not tell me 00:56:05.251 --> 00:56:08.851 that and my son when 00:56:08.851 --> 00:56:11.791 he moved from that from the creche 00:56:11.791 --> 00:56:18.491 to the daycare to the nursery school he didn't cry for me he cried for so she 00:56:18.491 --> 00:56:24.291 just said she just looked at whether the children want to go to her so i see 00:56:24.291 --> 00:56:31.331 that you know When you are able to invite and welcome people to you, 00:56:31.371 --> 00:56:37.451 that's the kind of quality in a leader that I would say you need good. 00:56:39.277 --> 00:56:49.857 Considerate, empathic leaders at every point in order for collaborations to thrive. 00:56:52.317 --> 00:56:57.417 If it's just contractual, sorry for the interruption, if it's just contractual, 00:56:58.477 --> 00:57:01.797 maybe it'll work but you see what happens in Amazon. 00:57:02.157 --> 00:57:08.857 I mean the bigger it gets, the the messier it gets, the more exploitative it gets. 00:57:09.677 --> 00:57:14.917 But now… One… Sorry. No, no. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, no. 00:57:15.417 --> 00:57:21.657 It's just Amazon and Google that get… Okay. But now, so what I'm wondering about 00:57:21.657 --> 00:57:26.837 is that if you look at India, you look at the world, we have massive challenges in front of us. 00:57:27.157 --> 00:57:32.457 To deal with these challenges effectively, collaboration is an essential requirement. 00:57:32.657 --> 00:57:36.297 It's not optional. We have to, at a massive scale. 00:57:36.737 --> 00:57:47.657 Do you believe, in your experience, that humans are even capable of approximating that for 10% or 20%? 00:57:47.737 --> 00:57:52.937 Do you think we're capable as humans to achieve that level of clarity? Of course. Okay. 00:57:53.237 --> 00:57:56.997 In that sense, I'm a diehard optimist. Okay. 00:57:57.177 --> 00:58:01.717 I mean, yes, we're capable of that. 00:58:01.717 --> 00:58:04.457 And I think we I mean look at what 00:58:04.457 --> 00:58:07.617 we've done with the vaccine and fine 00:58:07.617 --> 00:58:10.477 China is not giving us data and we cannot 00:58:10.477 --> 00:58:13.557 trust the information that comes out of China forget it 00:58:13.557 --> 00:58:16.697 it's over that part is done look at 00:58:16.697 --> 00:58:20.677 the collaborations that have happened so in order 00:58:20.677 --> 00:58:29.197 to stay afloat I find things to be joyful about every single day even if it's 00:58:29.197 --> 00:58:34.977 the smallest of things and when that happens I share that with everyone in my 00:58:34.977 --> 00:58:38.097 circle and I don't just mean my kids so I'm. 00:58:39.475 --> 00:58:42.615 That that sense of 00:58:42.615 --> 00:58:45.575 joy i see that also as 00:58:45.575 --> 00:58:51.435 collaboration i see my posts on facebook as collaboration even though it you 00:58:51.435 --> 00:58:57.755 know i don't even know if anybody is receiving it so the idea is to keep the 00:58:57.755 --> 00:59:05.075 joy and the affection towards others and i i do believe that humanity is, 00:59:05.815 --> 00:59:11.955 very, very capable of realizing a better world. 00:59:12.035 --> 00:59:15.495 We are a better world than we were so many years. 00:59:16.515 --> 00:59:19.095 Great. So, Nandita Sundari. 00:59:21.595 --> 00:59:26.615 Power and politics, yeah. Notwithstanding. Thank you very much for this conversation. 00:59:27.635 --> 00:59:32.235 Hi, you listened to one of our podcasts in the series on collaboration produced 00:59:32.235 --> 00:59:35.215 by the Ernst Trommel Forum and the Convergent Science Network. 00:59:35.935 --> 00:59:38.915 You can find more episodes on our website.