WEBVTT 00:00:04.757 --> 00:00:09.237 Hi, I'm Paul Fusciaro and today I'm speaking with Meg Jones about collaboration 00:00:09.237 --> 00:00:11.237 in large multinational organizations. 00:00:12.837 --> 00:00:15.477 Meg has a background in international studies and economics, 00:00:15.737 --> 00:00:19.477 having studied in Australia, Indonesia, Malaysia, and the Netherlands. 00:00:19.977 --> 00:00:24.277 She's a senior expert in trade and United Nations Sustainable Development Goals 00:00:24.277 --> 00:00:29.137 and has held senior roles in economic empowerment at United Nations for over a decade. 00:00:30.017 --> 00:00:34.037 So what I would like to start with is just to understand a little bit your professional 00:00:34.037 --> 00:00:37.037 trajectory that brought you to where you are today. 00:00:37.337 --> 00:00:40.277 So if you understand a little bit the context in which you have been looking 00:00:40.277 --> 00:00:42.777 and experiencing human collaboration. 00:00:44.017 --> 00:00:46.677 Thank you very much, Paul. It's a delight to be on your show today. 00:00:47.117 --> 00:00:51.877 Listen, collaboration has basically been the backbone of my professional career. 00:00:51.877 --> 00:00:56.477 I started off when I was in high school, very interested in how the Japanese 00:00:56.477 --> 00:01:01.297 had managed to rebuild themselves from the rubble of World War II into the economic 00:01:01.297 --> 00:01:03.637 superpower in what was then the 80s. 00:01:03.677 --> 00:01:08.757 And that was really my first dive into collaboration, going to Japan as an exchange 00:01:08.757 --> 00:01:13.857 student and understanding the Japanese way of thinking from the inside out. 00:01:13.857 --> 00:01:17.777 And then after that, I worked in the latter years for Medicine Frontier, 00:01:17.877 --> 00:01:22.637 Doctors Without Borders, and also with the United Nations for 15 years. 00:01:22.837 --> 00:01:28.417 And I'm currently now with Fair Trade International in their Australian New 00:01:28.417 --> 00:01:30.897 Zealand office, which is, of course, also about collaboration. 00:01:31.397 --> 00:01:37.317 So really, the whole piece has been around looking at how you can actually bring 00:01:37.317 --> 00:01:44.017 people together to take projects to scale or to replicate. But it really is about the scale aspect. 00:01:45.497 --> 00:01:55.677 Okay. But then, so maybe you started now, as you experienced this early on in 00:01:55.677 --> 00:02:00.437 Japan, and ending up where you are now in an NGO. 00:02:01.057 --> 00:02:06.317 But how would you define collaboration? So what is collaboration and... 00:02:08.024 --> 00:02:11.764 What are the underlying features? Yep. Well, I think, you know, 00:02:11.804 --> 00:02:16.464 Paul, there's an African proverb that says, alone I can go fast and together 00:02:16.464 --> 00:02:19.404 we go far. And I really think it's that recognition. 00:02:20.104 --> 00:02:25.524 Collaboration is bringing a group of people or entities together to achieve 00:02:25.524 --> 00:02:28.084 something, whether that's a task or a goal. 00:02:28.244 --> 00:02:34.104 It really is bringing more than one person or entity together to achieve a common task or goal. 00:02:34.224 --> 00:02:37.904 And I think what that really requires is a vision. The people who are going 00:02:37.904 --> 00:02:41.364 to be part of this collaboration need to recognize a common vision. 00:02:41.524 --> 00:02:45.464 They need to see what it is that they can contribute to that and what it is 00:02:45.464 --> 00:02:46.384 they're going to get out of that. 00:02:46.644 --> 00:02:50.104 And they need to agree on leadership as well. I think this is how in some ways 00:02:50.104 --> 00:02:51.264 it differs from cooperation. 00:02:51.584 --> 00:02:56.064 I think you can cooperate without necessarily a strong leadership component 00:02:56.064 --> 00:03:00.164 in place, but collaboration, you really need to have leadership there. 00:03:01.904 --> 00:03:08.784 So what you highlight here, there's goals, objectives, there's incentives. But also leadership. 00:03:10.064 --> 00:03:14.424 So do you see other underlying features that stand out? 00:03:15.937 --> 00:03:19.717 Or these would, for you, be the three pillars, if you want, of human collaboration? 00:03:20.397 --> 00:03:24.477 I think human collaboration is around goals, it is around incentives and leadership, 00:03:24.617 --> 00:03:27.677 but the make or break in the mix, if you like, is trust. 00:03:29.377 --> 00:03:32.957 If there's trust between partners, then you'll be able to continue, 00:03:33.197 --> 00:03:38.437 even when things do become difficult, but without trust, nothing will be achieved, 00:03:38.517 --> 00:03:40.097 essentially, and the thing will fall apart. 00:03:40.097 --> 00:03:44.917 But, I mean, as you know, I worked for the United Nations for 15 years and I 00:03:44.917 --> 00:03:50.337 think the United Nations is the platform for collaboration par excellence. 00:03:50.597 --> 00:03:53.797 I mean, it was established for that out of the rubble of the World War II. 00:03:53.857 --> 00:03:57.897 It was really the purpose was to bring the nations of the world together to 00:03:57.897 --> 00:04:02.757 ensure that the atrocities that had taken place preceding and during the Second 00:04:02.757 --> 00:04:04.257 World War never happened again. 00:04:04.257 --> 00:04:07.037 Game um and so that was 00:04:07.037 --> 00:04:10.137 when it's the forum where um at at 00:04:10.137 --> 00:04:14.497 a you know governmental level the governments of the world actually agree to 00:04:14.497 --> 00:04:19.297 not in any way give up their sovereignty they retain their sovereign rights 00:04:19.297 --> 00:04:25.337 but it is a forum for collaboration um for if you like the greater good whether 00:04:25.337 --> 00:04:28.837 that's human rights and i worked at the office of the united nations um human rights, 00:04:29.397 --> 00:04:32.837 Commission for Human Rights, or if it's in trade, I worked in trade for many years. 00:04:33.717 --> 00:04:39.197 Or as is essential to our response to the COVID pandemic, the World Health Organization. 00:04:39.997 --> 00:04:45.477 Governments coming together there to share the results of their scientific research 00:04:45.477 --> 00:04:51.117 and their experience in innovation in tackling the virus at the national level. 00:04:51.837 --> 00:04:57.197 But now if we take the United Nations as our example of collaboration, 00:04:57.197 --> 00:05:02.157 Certainly, it aspires to be the example of collaboration in the same sense. 00:05:04.137 --> 00:05:07.817 What would be then the objective, when you start with the goal? 00:05:08.297 --> 00:05:16.517 What is the goal? In order for also antagonized countries to just communicate? 00:05:17.937 --> 00:05:22.617 Or is it also to achieve a common objective in a more constructive sense? 00:05:23.417 --> 00:05:26.577 Well, the overarching goal of the United Nations is about peace and security. 00:05:27.197 --> 00:05:31.797 Really, that's central to the UN. And I think what we've seen with globalisation 00:05:31.797 --> 00:05:38.057 and other factors is that peace and security can be impacted by factors even 00:05:38.057 --> 00:05:41.197 beyond the general factors. I mean, for example... 00:05:42.926 --> 00:05:46.126 Ill health like we're experiencing at the moment, the pandemic that we're experiencing 00:05:46.126 --> 00:05:51.366 at the moment, or the race towards the conservation of water resources, 00:05:51.546 --> 00:05:52.706 the ownership of water resources. 00:05:53.166 --> 00:05:58.746 There are many circumstances in which the United Nations acts as the convening 00:05:58.746 --> 00:06:04.006 force for discussions around which collaborations can form and produce from. 00:06:04.006 --> 00:06:12.926 But as such, has it achieved that goal or is it effective in achieving this goal? 00:06:14.226 --> 00:06:17.966 I think yes. In many ways, yes. 00:06:18.146 --> 00:06:23.086 Of course, I can only speak to my own experience in forming collaborations as 00:06:23.086 --> 00:06:27.986 an international civil servant as part of the UN machinery. I can share some experience on that. 00:06:29.066 --> 00:06:34.346 But before I do that, I think it's worth acknowledging that from the time of 00:06:34.346 --> 00:06:37.486 the Millennium Development Goals, which were promulgated under Kofi Annan's 00:06:37.486 --> 00:06:42.826 leadership to now the Sustainable Development Goals, MDGs ran 2000 to 2015, 00:06:43.046 --> 00:06:46.706 and then we've got the Sustainable Development Goals now from 2015 to 2030. 00:06:47.106 --> 00:06:50.786 I mean, this is where the member states of the United Nations have agreed, 00:06:50.926 --> 00:06:52.406 basically, the development agenda. 00:06:52.746 --> 00:06:57.806 And the purpose of that is to focus and concentrate trade resources around the 00:06:57.806 --> 00:07:05.326 17 goals, which include, of course, health and human rights and climate change. 00:07:06.046 --> 00:07:10.146 But in the context of, if I can just go back to answer your specific question 00:07:10.146 --> 00:07:13.466 about where has the UN been successful, one small example. 00:07:13.966 --> 00:07:19.886 I worked as the, I headed up the program for women's economic empowerment at 00:07:19.886 --> 00:07:23.126 the International Trade Centre, which is part of the UN in Geneva. either. 00:07:24.406 --> 00:07:28.226 It's where the World Trade Organization makes the trade rules or the member 00:07:28.226 --> 00:07:31.926 states, it's the WTO, establish the rules that govern international trade. 00:07:32.266 --> 00:07:37.166 And the International Trade Bank is all about putting those rules into practice, 00:07:37.186 --> 00:07:38.646 working with the private sector. 00:07:38.886 --> 00:07:42.306 So the UN is public sector largely and then working with the private sector 00:07:42.306 --> 00:07:44.686 to help small and medium-sized companies export. 00:07:45.843 --> 00:07:49.963 And within that context, I was responsible for women's economic empowerment, 00:07:50.123 --> 00:07:52.823 currently a sustainable development goal number five. 00:07:53.803 --> 00:07:59.743 And I think in terms of that whole, what we did was we put together a collaboration 00:07:59.743 --> 00:08:05.943 because the thing about the UN is that it is vast, 00:08:06.223 --> 00:08:10.243 it is under-resourced, whether you're talking about human or financial resources, 00:08:10.323 --> 00:08:13.803 the UN is under-resourced and that's why it needs to leverage its collaborating, 00:08:14.143 --> 00:08:19.443 its convening power to form collaborations between private public sector, 00:08:19.583 --> 00:08:22.383 academics, NGOs, to achieve those goals. 00:08:22.683 --> 00:08:26.443 And that's what we did under Women's Economic Empowerment when we established 00:08:26.443 --> 00:08:30.863 what was then called the Global Platform for Action for Sourcing from Women 00:08:30.863 --> 00:08:33.943 Vendors, which is now called SheTrades. 00:08:34.643 --> 00:08:41.543 But then, so for the United Nations, there are two different collaborative processes 00:08:41.543 --> 00:08:46.583 that we could analyze. On the one hand, it is a body where countries try to collaborate. 00:08:46.883 --> 00:08:52.383 On the other hand, it's a body formed by humans who internally always have to 00:08:52.383 --> 00:08:57.323 collaborate to serve, in some sense, the collaboration between nations. 00:08:58.903 --> 00:09:04.243 So if we take your pillars of collaboration of goals, incentives, 00:09:04.463 --> 00:09:09.423 and leadership, how would that translate to these two different processes? 00:09:11.283 --> 00:09:17.243 Because in some sense, you also face, of course, a massive heterogeneity in 00:09:17.243 --> 00:09:19.883 terms of the players at both these levels. 00:09:20.943 --> 00:09:25.323 Yes, yes, you do. And again, that's where I think collaboration comes from, 00:09:25.423 --> 00:09:28.503 cooperation and cooperation you get between homogenous entities. 00:09:28.743 --> 00:09:32.763 And when you talk about collaboration, it really is heavy lifting because there 00:09:32.763 --> 00:09:37.383 is a lot more heterogeneity amongst the players there when you're talking about collaboration. 00:09:38.083 --> 00:09:44.143 So I think you're right, and the UN is probably one of the most diverse institutions 00:09:44.143 --> 00:09:46.363 on the face of the planet, by definition. 00:09:46.523 --> 00:09:50.343 It's got 100 member states that are coming together to try to agree goals, 00:09:50.543 --> 00:09:54.703 which is why if there's any outcome such as sustainable development goals, 00:09:54.883 --> 00:09:58.623 I mean, what could you do on sustainable development? 00:09:58.923 --> 00:10:03.343 There are thousands of things you could do on that front. So for the member 00:10:03.343 --> 00:10:06.683 states of the United Nations to come together to narrow that down to just 17 00:10:06.683 --> 00:10:08.243 is in and of itself difficult. 00:10:09.807 --> 00:10:12.907 An achievement yeah because also behind 00:10:12.907 --> 00:10:15.687 that i think this is the other thing that the um that the 00:10:15.687 --> 00:10:18.667 un is very good at um it's good at iteration 00:10:18.667 --> 00:10:22.447 it's good at iteration the iteration is very slow but it's good at iteration 00:10:22.447 --> 00:10:26.527 because it has a long institutional memory stemming stemming back to the second 00:10:26.527 --> 00:10:30.687 world the end of the second world war so for example and and learnings are taken 00:10:30.687 --> 00:10:34.407 on board so for example whereas the millennium development goals that first 00:10:34.407 --> 00:10:36.947 set of eight goals which was promulgated in 2000, 00:10:37.327 --> 00:10:42.427 was really the reporting on achievements was done by developing and least developed 00:10:42.427 --> 00:10:45.487 countries to the United Nations reporting in. 00:10:45.847 --> 00:10:50.147 What we see in the Sustainable Development Goals, this set of 17 goals, 00:10:50.307 --> 00:10:55.027 it's actually an agenda that's owned by developing least developed and developed 00:10:55.027 --> 00:11:00.027 countries, its public sector and its private sector. 00:11:00.467 --> 00:11:05.627 Corporations have also taken up or recognised responsibilities under the Sustainable 00:11:05.627 --> 00:11:09.607 Development Goals and are reporting on those as well, and I think that's a major step forward. 00:11:10.367 --> 00:11:13.327 Academia is also playing a role in that as well. Lots of research going around 00:11:13.327 --> 00:11:15.787 how to better achieve those goals and achieve the outcomes. 00:11:16.067 --> 00:11:20.547 And of course, NGOs have always been central to the achievement of development 00:11:20.547 --> 00:11:22.587 goals, including in this instance. 00:11:23.428 --> 00:11:28.128 But then you could, of course, so first we have to establish these goals and 00:11:28.128 --> 00:11:31.188 indeed the Sustainable Development Goals are a very good example of that. 00:11:31.668 --> 00:11:36.348 Yes. But now you could also then argue, well, maybe that's just the lowest common 00:11:36.348 --> 00:11:43.968 denominator around which we could actually group all these heterogeneity in objectives, 00:11:44.248 --> 00:11:49.108 in interests, and so on, which means that the sustainable development goals 00:11:49.108 --> 00:11:56.708 in the end are so broad and ill-defined that they will give you little traction in the real world. 00:11:56.708 --> 00:12:00.048 So isn't that the continuous problem, the problem of compromise, 00:12:00.448 --> 00:12:07.508 because you have a lot of hidden conflicting forces that you have to act against? 00:12:08.528 --> 00:12:13.168 You could look at it like that. And yet I would say there's nothing wrong with 00:12:13.168 --> 00:12:16.288 sharing of experience on the lowest common denominator. 00:12:16.748 --> 00:12:19.648 Because once you've got a good baseline, then you can keep building on that. 00:12:19.648 --> 00:12:22.828 But unless people have, unless countries share in that common denominator, 00:12:23.328 --> 00:12:28.508 you will never be, there will always be these large gaps in development status. 00:12:28.868 --> 00:12:32.628 And I think you could use the current pandemic as a casing point there. 00:12:32.628 --> 00:12:35.688 If you're looking at, if you're pushing, 00:12:35.888 --> 00:12:40.968 if you juxtapose vaccine nationalism with vaccine equity, for example, 00:12:41.008 --> 00:12:45.688 which is the difference between Australia wanting all Australians to be vaccinated 00:12:45.688 --> 00:12:49.748 versus making that vaccine available in the Pacific, our nearest neighbours, 00:12:50.388 --> 00:12:54.728 that kind of juxtaposition, I think that's important to look at. 00:12:54.728 --> 00:12:58.848 And also in terms when you're fighting something new like COVID, 00:12:59.228 --> 00:13:05.608 using the WTO as that platform for the sharing of scientific breakthroughs, 00:13:05.608 --> 00:13:09.648 if you like, for sharing of experience on what works at the national level in 00:13:09.648 --> 00:13:12.468 the different countries and what could work by definition, 00:13:12.688 --> 00:13:15.648 or one would hope, in different regions as well because, of course, 00:13:15.728 --> 00:13:19.348 COVID as a virus is going to spread rapidly. 00:13:20.682 --> 00:13:26.702 More quickly in a given region even as it does globally but now you what you 00:13:26.702 --> 00:13:31.902 also mentioned that maybe these things go together you said look united nations 00:13:31.902 --> 00:13:35.842 very good iterating a process yes and this is how you would build up from the 00:13:35.842 --> 00:13:39.822 baseline so to develop the collaboration over time, 00:13:40.522 --> 00:13:45.762 by stretching out the time in some sense the participating players are changing 00:13:45.762 --> 00:13:50.382 continuously because the process runs over a longer period of time than the 00:13:50.382 --> 00:13:51.862 presence of the individual players. 00:13:52.142 --> 00:13:58.462 Is that a reaction to overcoming this challenge of the lowest common denominator, you say? 00:13:59.622 --> 00:14:03.742 Yes, well, I think it is. I mean, because countries also, even if you look at 00:14:03.742 --> 00:14:05.822 the, if we move now to the human rights context, 00:14:07.082 --> 00:14:12.002 countries have a reporting requirement every four years to report on the discharging 00:14:12.002 --> 00:14:15.702 of their obligations under international treaties at the national level, 00:14:15.702 --> 00:14:18.182 or how they've changed legislation, regulation, 00:14:18.722 --> 00:14:21.022 administrative instructions to bring 00:14:21.022 --> 00:14:24.342 themselves into alignment with their international treaty obligations. 00:14:24.722 --> 00:14:27.982 And that must be done every four years, irrespective of changes in government. 00:14:28.202 --> 00:14:32.182 And I think that's important to remember as well. I mean, that's what countries 00:14:32.182 --> 00:14:34.702 are held to. It doesn't matter who's in power today. 00:14:35.762 --> 00:14:39.382 Left, right, centre, makes no difference. The country can have the reporting 00:14:39.382 --> 00:14:42.462 requirement. And, of course, there has to be what's called a... 00:14:46.510 --> 00:14:51.050 A progressive, there we go, I'm looking for the word, progressive realisation 00:14:51.050 --> 00:14:53.050 of rights. So there has to be progression. 00:14:54.290 --> 00:15:00.270 So that's the operative word there. And again, when countries go to report on 00:15:00.270 --> 00:15:03.750 the realisation of human rights obligations at the national level, 00:15:04.090 --> 00:15:08.890 the committees under the treaties share, they make observations and they share 00:15:08.890 --> 00:15:13.850 how other countries have actually overcome the obstacles that that country may 00:15:13.850 --> 00:15:17.010 identify as being being an impediment to their realisation of rights. 00:15:17.630 --> 00:15:22.390 So I think it's a really good forum for as countries feel the pressure, 00:15:22.550 --> 00:15:27.230 they report, they draw down new information on how they can improve and then 00:15:27.230 --> 00:15:29.650 they apply that over the next three, four years and they report again. 00:15:29.930 --> 00:15:38.330 So there is that progressive, iterative movement through the achievement of 00:15:38.330 --> 00:15:42.350 goals, whether it's sustainable development goals or human rights goals there as well. 00:15:42.350 --> 00:15:49.030 And what the UN also does to further accelerate the realisation of those goals 00:15:49.030 --> 00:15:51.950 is to, it hosts regional meetings. 00:15:52.330 --> 00:15:57.790 And this is useful from the perspective of, because you talked about heterogeneity 00:15:57.790 --> 00:16:03.070 before, any cultural, linguistic differences as well. 00:16:03.130 --> 00:16:06.730 Because sometimes there is that feeling that's expressed that, 00:16:06.730 --> 00:16:11.730 oh, you can't compare region A with region B. We're so different in terms of 00:16:11.730 --> 00:16:14.910 religion or language or many other factors. 00:16:15.190 --> 00:16:20.610 And so the UN is, again, the convening power in the different regions for regional 00:16:20.610 --> 00:16:22.110 meetings as well to share knowledge. 00:16:22.810 --> 00:16:29.390 But how did that then translate to the actual day-to-day work you were doing 00:16:29.390 --> 00:16:33.330 when you were working on all these issues of female, of women empowerment? 00:16:34.530 --> 00:16:40.670 So how did it now translate? late, right? So, and how you reach out. 00:16:41.631 --> 00:16:46.111 Yeah, well, I think you raised a very good point before about the people because 00:16:46.111 --> 00:16:52.671 I tell you one thing, collaboration really only works with the right mix of people. 00:16:54.091 --> 00:16:59.191 There can be this view that if you line up institution A, B, 00:16:59.291 --> 00:17:04.291 C, D, this natural progression will lead you to outcomes E and F or something like that. 00:17:04.371 --> 00:17:08.111 But I'm telling you from long experience and working across a range of collaborations, 00:17:08.531 --> 00:17:10.831 it's the people at the table. 00:17:11.631 --> 00:17:15.031 That we'll make that collaboration work or not. 00:17:16.031 --> 00:17:18.731 Yeah, so it's not just about the organisations or institutions. 00:17:19.031 --> 00:17:24.311 It's about the people who are sent, if you like, or opt in to represent those organisations. 00:17:25.791 --> 00:17:30.811 And the most successful collaborations I've worked in have been the people you 00:17:30.811 --> 00:17:35.491 know will get out of bed at 3am and fall across broken glass because this has to be done now. 00:17:36.531 --> 00:17:40.131 This is the critical operation. And that gets back down to what I was talking 00:17:40.131 --> 00:17:41.171 about before about trust. 00:17:41.631 --> 00:17:45.791 You know, good leadership, good leadership and trust. 00:17:46.211 --> 00:17:50.491 Trust that the vision that we've set for ourselves or the task before us can 00:17:50.491 --> 00:17:53.611 be achieved no matter how ominous it may appear. 00:17:54.531 --> 00:17:59.671 And trust in each other that collectively, once again, to that point about alone 00:17:59.671 --> 00:18:02.171 I can go fast, but together we go far. 00:18:03.111 --> 00:18:06.951 But collectively, we can actually achieve solid runs on the board. 00:18:06.951 --> 00:18:09.931 And that is where the collaboration is. 00:18:10.011 --> 00:18:14.411 If you've got five people, it's no longer a collaboration between five people. 00:18:14.491 --> 00:18:19.171 It really is five organizations or five institutions, say five organizations. 00:18:19.451 --> 00:18:23.471 And when you've got five organizations at the table, then you get that longevity, 00:18:23.851 --> 00:18:27.451 that temporal aspect, the longevity aspect as well, which I think is really important. 00:18:27.571 --> 00:18:31.291 It goes beyond the people. I think good collaboration starts with the people, 00:18:31.391 --> 00:18:36.751 the right people, the right entities, and then you can get those results. 00:18:36.951 --> 00:18:42.091 Every time with that it's the what are then the the traits of of. 00:18:43.197 --> 00:18:47.557 The perfect collaborator, you talk about people, what are they? 00:18:47.577 --> 00:18:51.937 I think it comes down to... I'll give you an example of how it worked around 00:18:51.937 --> 00:18:54.257 this notion of the people involved. 00:18:55.337 --> 00:18:59.677 Sure. I think it comes down to you have to correctly identify what you're solving 00:18:59.677 --> 00:19:02.637 for. What is the problem? 00:19:03.137 --> 00:19:06.697 Because if you get a good problem definition, then you can actually come up with a solution. 00:19:06.937 --> 00:19:11.817 So in terms of economic empowerment of women, again, there's 100 ways you could approach that. 00:19:12.777 --> 00:19:16.957 Working for the United Nations for a Trade Institute, we had to achieve that through trade, right? 00:19:17.077 --> 00:19:24.317 So then one of the problems we realized was actually ascertaining where do women 00:19:24.317 --> 00:19:27.597 business owners, in which sectors are they concentrated? 00:19:28.037 --> 00:19:30.497 Now, sitting at my desk in Geneva, how am I going to find out that? 00:19:30.717 --> 00:19:35.197 Because there was no research in the topic or very little research that, 00:19:35.277 --> 00:19:39.417 you know, they're in textiles and clothing kind of, but what else are they in? 00:19:39.457 --> 00:19:44.037 It's a bit It's a bit anecdotal, you know. So then we worked. 00:19:44.157 --> 00:19:46.357 So then we've got to figure out which organizations to work with. 00:19:46.437 --> 00:19:50.997 So we chose to work with, reach out to the International Federation of Business 00:19:50.997 --> 00:19:54.797 and Professional Women because it was the largest organization of business women 00:19:54.797 --> 00:19:57.377 on the business and professional women on the planet. 00:19:57.457 --> 00:20:00.197 They're active in over 90 countries, 30,000 members. 00:20:00.617 --> 00:20:03.577 And the first step, so they were the first people I reached out to, 00:20:04.257 --> 00:20:06.357 was the International Federation of Business and Professional Women. 00:20:06.357 --> 00:20:09.957 And with an agreement to survey their members. 00:20:10.744 --> 00:20:13.364 Because I had so many members to find out what those sectors were. 00:20:14.184 --> 00:20:17.464 Also at that time, collaborating very closely with a group called We Connect 00:20:17.464 --> 00:20:21.904 because they're all about connecting women business owners with corporations 00:20:21.904 --> 00:20:23.544 and they had the corporate networks. 00:20:24.264 --> 00:20:29.264 We Connect is a membership-based organization of corporations that want to increase 00:20:29.264 --> 00:20:31.544 sourcing goods and services from companies owned by women. 00:20:31.644 --> 00:20:36.444 So we had the private sector there. As the UN, we knew the supply side. 00:20:36.664 --> 00:20:40.804 We have deep connections into women business owners as in developing and least developed countries. 00:20:40.984 --> 00:20:45.044 So we had the supply side sorted out. We needed guidance on the sectors, 00:20:45.104 --> 00:20:48.064 which we got through the feedback from the survey from the International Federation 00:20:48.064 --> 00:20:52.784 of Business and Professional Women, and then working with WeConnect on the demand 00:20:52.784 --> 00:20:54.904 side with the corporations to bring that together. 00:20:55.684 --> 00:20:59.284 So we had our first meeting, and it was only 27 people. 00:20:59.784 --> 00:21:05.624 But again, they were representatives of about 14 different organisations to 00:21:05.624 --> 00:21:08.604 determine how we'd move forward. And we decided to focus on procurement, 00:21:08.844 --> 00:21:11.944 came up with some ideas around that, started running annual meetings. 00:21:12.244 --> 00:21:18.504 And to date, SheTrades, there's been $80 million of worth of sales from goods 00:21:18.504 --> 00:21:21.924 and services from companies owned by women in developing and least developed countries. 00:21:22.704 --> 00:21:27.024 That's pretty good, Paul. It's $8 million that otherwise wouldn't have gone 00:21:27.024 --> 00:21:29.044 into the pockets of women in the developing world. 00:21:29.604 --> 00:21:35.924 Right. No, no, I know. I understand. But you said earlier that what really matters 00:21:35.924 --> 00:21:41.064 to make a successful collaboration is the people around that table, 00:21:41.204 --> 00:21:42.564 right? Yes, that's right. 00:21:43.664 --> 00:21:48.964 What was special about the people around that table to lead to this success? 00:21:50.102 --> 00:21:54.482 What did they bring to that table to make that happen? Was it in the trust, for instance? 00:21:54.682 --> 00:21:58.522 Was that the main thing? Or was it also a sense of taking initiative, 00:21:58.722 --> 00:22:00.502 accepting risk? I don't know. I'm guessing. 00:22:02.102 --> 00:22:05.282 Well, I think, I don't know. I'm guessing it's a really good place to start 00:22:05.282 --> 00:22:11.282 because if you're looking to bring people around the table to collaborate on something, 00:22:11.422 --> 00:22:16.482 a good place to start is by recognizing we have a problem and saying, 00:22:16.622 --> 00:22:18.802 I don't know, I'm guessing that this could be a way forward, 00:22:18.802 --> 00:22:22.722 but I really need the input of the people around this table to figure out what 00:22:22.722 --> 00:22:26.362 is the best chances of working going forward. 00:22:26.842 --> 00:22:31.242 You know, I think in terms of the qualities in the people, humility goes a long way, I think. 00:22:31.622 --> 00:22:34.782 Humility, experience, and then the trust is built over time. 00:22:35.122 --> 00:22:40.042 But firstly, it has to be trust in the vision to get people together to be part 00:22:40.042 --> 00:22:42.962 of identifying, okay, the problem, but what are the solutions to the problem? 00:22:43.062 --> 00:22:48.702 What are the options we have before us? and then out of that comes almost like 00:22:48.702 --> 00:22:53.442 the rules and regulations around how you make decisions as well because that's 00:22:53.442 --> 00:22:55.202 an important part in a collaboration as well. 00:22:55.522 --> 00:23:03.282 You know, there has to be a way to make decisions and under a collaboration that has to happen. 00:23:03.782 --> 00:23:08.262 I wouldn't necessarily say quickly, but it has to happen decisively so you can 00:23:08.262 --> 00:23:11.922 keep moving forward, you know, and therefore there has to be trust in the leadership. 00:23:11.922 --> 00:23:18.602 So, and that's, I think, also valuable because there is trust in the leadership there. 00:23:19.162 --> 00:23:22.902 But now, could you also give an example where it just didn't work out? 00:23:25.202 --> 00:23:27.562 Because these features were absent. 00:23:28.857 --> 00:23:34.757 Yeah, I think they just naturally fall apart, Paul. I've been involved in some 00:23:34.757 --> 00:23:42.897 non-status where there's an indication that we must do something. 00:23:42.917 --> 00:23:44.217 We always must do something. 00:23:44.677 --> 00:23:48.977 But then certain parties just don't come to the table. They just don't come to the meetings. 00:23:49.297 --> 00:23:53.157 And the less people turn up, then you're just not going to be able to achieve. 00:23:53.577 --> 00:23:59.317 Well, you starve the process through your absence. Yes, you start the process 00:23:59.317 --> 00:24:00.537 through your actions, which is a tactic. 00:24:00.697 --> 00:24:07.957 It's a tactic used also by some players in different international games because 00:24:07.957 --> 00:24:09.477 there's the substance of the process. 00:24:10.377 --> 00:24:15.597 Yes. But now, in the example you gave us, we speak about women empowerment. 00:24:17.597 --> 00:24:20.157 The success of that story is also 00:24:20.157 --> 00:24:24.457 how you summarized it, is to bring more money to the pockets of women. 00:24:25.017 --> 00:24:31.757 Absolutely. But do you also see that as, let's say, a struggle against another 00:24:31.757 --> 00:24:39.277 form of, let's say, power and control that is maybe more dominated by males? 00:24:40.097 --> 00:24:44.437 And do you see that converge or do you see that diverge? 00:24:44.457 --> 00:24:49.197 Because that would suggest that there are two realms of collaboration, 00:24:49.377 --> 00:24:53.537 possibly, that will never meet. Right. 00:24:54.253 --> 00:24:58.353 And then we have to indeed support one real more because the other one is really 00:24:58.353 --> 00:25:02.793 dominant, the top-down, power-based one. So how do you look at that? 00:25:04.373 --> 00:25:08.493 I did a lot of work with governments, and I think, firstly, in many instances, 00:25:08.613 --> 00:25:13.433 you need to get different ministries to collaborate, to agree to collaborate 00:25:13.433 --> 00:25:15.153 with you to achieve the common goal. 00:25:15.233 --> 00:25:18.493 And that might sound like that should be automatic, but it isn't. 00:25:19.573 --> 00:25:23.673 Typically, the UN deals with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. that's 00:25:23.673 --> 00:25:26.473 un level um my interlocutors with 00:25:26.473 --> 00:25:29.913 the ministry of trade i did a lot of work in agriculture so 00:25:29.913 --> 00:25:32.633 then there's a ministry of agriculture and somewhere in there there's 00:25:32.633 --> 00:25:37.113 usually a ministry of women's affairs so it's four different ministries and 00:25:37.113 --> 00:25:41.393 with four different briefs and rarely do those four different ministers come 00:25:41.393 --> 00:25:46.553 into the same room around a topic like economic empowerment and then you need 00:25:46.553 --> 00:25:50.013 to convince them as to why that's important so So if I go back to the example, 00:25:50.313 --> 00:25:57.153 one of the areas that came out of the survey in which women were concentrated was coffee. 00:25:58.973 --> 00:26:02.153 So, okay, fine. So then you have to look for an organisation, 00:26:02.513 --> 00:26:05.713 bring them in. So we worked with the International Women's Coffee Alliance. 00:26:06.773 --> 00:26:11.553 Then I did some work in Uganda, Burundi, East Africa. 00:26:12.513 --> 00:26:16.393 And a lot of that was with, firstly, the doorways was the Ministry of Foreign 00:26:16.393 --> 00:26:18.313 Affairs and the Ministry of Women's Affairs. 00:26:18.833 --> 00:26:23.213 Bringing the Ministry of Trade, talking to these ministers about how important 00:26:23.213 --> 00:26:26.373 it was for them to support this process of women's economic empowerment in the company, 00:26:26.533 --> 00:26:30.873 for them to recognise the role of women in the copy value chain, 00:26:30.993 --> 00:26:34.453 that women do most of the work and they're down at the very poorly paid end of that. 00:26:35.933 --> 00:26:41.073 And to ask ministers questions, I won't name the country, but one of the countries 00:26:41.073 --> 00:26:46.193 in East Africa decided to issue export certificates, sorry, export licences, 00:26:46.193 --> 00:26:48.713 very lucrative, their actual licence to export coffee. 00:26:49.053 --> 00:26:52.713 They issued 10 of them and they all went to men. So I asked the Minister of 00:26:52.713 --> 00:26:53.713 Trade, was that intentional? 00:26:54.213 --> 00:26:57.833 And he said, oh, but we went through the, we made that information available 00:26:57.833 --> 00:26:59.853 through the Chamber of Commerce. 00:27:01.573 --> 00:27:05.293 And then how many women are part of the Chambers of Commerce? 00:27:05.293 --> 00:27:08.693 And if you're growing coffee in remote and, by definition, high-altitude areas, 00:27:08.873 --> 00:27:12.773 typically miles from capital, how are you going to even know about that because 00:27:12.773 --> 00:27:15.193 you're not plugged into that kind of a network? 00:27:15.473 --> 00:27:20.533 So it was really talking about if you want to actually achieve outcomes across 00:27:20.533 --> 00:27:24.233 the value chain, they're equitable, really looking at the role of men and women 00:27:24.233 --> 00:27:27.073 there and ensuring that the information goes out to women. 00:27:27.213 --> 00:27:29.993 And so to your question on collaboration, how do you do that? 00:27:29.993 --> 00:27:35.633 But again, I think our role was bringing around the table the people who played 00:27:35.633 --> 00:27:42.293 key roles in coffee and getting them to recognize themselves how important it 00:27:42.293 --> 00:27:43.573 was to have the women at the table. 00:27:44.053 --> 00:27:48.513 When we had these meetings, for example, invariably the women would say, 00:27:48.593 --> 00:27:54.493 we work so hard on improving on good agricultural practices to improve the quality 00:27:54.493 --> 00:27:56.773 and quantity of coffee. We get the stuff. 00:27:57.314 --> 00:28:02.874 Ready, you know, we grow the stuff, it goes into bags. And then the time it 00:28:02.874 --> 00:28:07.074 goes to market is typically a time when it rains heavily and the roads are washed out, you know. 00:28:07.454 --> 00:28:12.254 And so having the Ministry of Public Works at the table too to also recognise 00:28:12.254 --> 00:28:15.454 their role in women's economic empowerment through the export of coffee, 00:28:15.614 --> 00:28:19.834 you know, to show that this is a hugely collaborative effort that hugely needs 00:28:19.834 --> 00:28:23.854 the support of the government for that to happen in a very practical sense. 00:28:24.114 --> 00:28:27.534 You raise questions about men and women's power dynamics, And you see these 00:28:27.534 --> 00:28:31.274 play out in these meetings. These women are not used to speaking to men in power. 00:28:31.974 --> 00:28:36.514 So part of our role was in generating confidence and the women to be able to 00:28:36.514 --> 00:28:39.814 speak up to help them articulate what their concerns were. 00:28:40.054 --> 00:28:43.234 But honestly, Paul, this is the thing about the United Nations. 00:28:43.374 --> 00:28:45.534 Once you've built those relationships, you've built the confidence, 00:28:45.634 --> 00:28:50.194 you've built the trust, and you've actually shone light into a dark area, 00:28:50.274 --> 00:28:52.914 like, for example, how important the Ministry of Public Works is to women's 00:28:52.914 --> 00:28:55.814 economic empowerment. on rebuilding the feeder roads, you know, 00:28:55.854 --> 00:28:57.714 back up the hill so the coffee can come down. 00:28:58.014 --> 00:29:04.654 Then people realised the value of having tables to be able to share that information. 00:29:05.114 --> 00:29:08.694 They also realised the value in some of the research that we did on the importance 00:29:08.694 --> 00:29:12.914 of women's economic empowerment in terms of breaking into generational poverty 00:29:12.914 --> 00:29:16.974 as well, women spending on their health, the education of children, very important areas. 00:29:17.174 --> 00:29:19.974 So it's a big picture. And I think that's the thing about collaboration. 00:29:20.234 --> 00:29:23.834 Once you get those parties together, once they start to listen And once they 00:29:23.834 --> 00:29:25.154 build relationships in and of 00:29:25.154 --> 00:29:29.374 themselves, this is the role of the land to bring those people together. 00:29:29.634 --> 00:29:34.074 And then when they're there, this is when they stick in this blue because export 00:29:34.074 --> 00:29:35.894 is so important in this country. 00:29:36.074 --> 00:29:38.034 It's a top foreign exchange earner. 00:29:38.794 --> 00:29:42.314 And clearly, the education and health of children is very important as well. 00:29:43.234 --> 00:29:47.234 So these collaborations tend to stick and play out for the best of the time. 00:29:48.874 --> 00:29:54.894 So this is very clear, right? And it also seems like almost that you have a 00:29:54.894 --> 00:30:00.974 recipe to make, at least to make progress in this. Yes. Like progress. 00:30:01.536 --> 00:30:04.636 In some sense, start simple, bring all the stakeholders together, 00:30:04.796 --> 00:30:06.196 have to communicate and so on. 00:30:06.316 --> 00:30:11.356 But in some sense, after 15 years of doing that, you stepped out of it. 00:30:11.616 --> 00:30:15.916 Even though these are hugely important challenges for humanity when you were 00:30:15.916 --> 00:30:17.656 really playing a very relevant role. 00:30:17.896 --> 00:30:23.236 So did you step out because you thought, okay, it's all solved now and someone 00:30:23.236 --> 00:30:25.196 else can do it because the recipe is clear? 00:30:25.956 --> 00:30:31.216 Or did you also step out because actually it's also a very challenging and draining activity? 00:30:32.316 --> 00:30:38.156 That you only can sustain for a certain amount of time. So why did you step out of it? 00:30:41.076 --> 00:30:45.956 First, when I started in the year 2000 on what was then what I call gender and 00:30:45.956 --> 00:30:48.136 trade, there was so little known about that. 00:30:48.216 --> 00:30:51.176 It was just a gut feeling that I had that this was so important and there was 00:30:51.176 --> 00:30:58.456 so little research and nothing being done at the World Trade Organization at all at that time. 00:30:58.456 --> 00:31:03.536 And I really felt the need to fight in this very important area. I knew it was important. 00:31:04.656 --> 00:31:07.776 It's just that we hadn't devised things yet. 00:31:07.876 --> 00:31:12.756 Like one of the first projects I worked on with the ITC was to come up with 00:31:12.756 --> 00:31:16.856 a methodology for a gender-sensitive value chain analysis, not just a value 00:31:16.856 --> 00:31:18.916 chain looking at coffee but where are women along the value chain. 00:31:19.176 --> 00:31:24.096 So, you know, I spent 15 years working with governments and people to put these 00:31:24.096 --> 00:31:29.916 tools together to build the structure that is now our SheTrades that continues today. 00:31:30.016 --> 00:31:33.656 There's a meeting to buy in October, another buyer-sellers meeting in October, 00:31:33.776 --> 00:31:37.376 and it's a few years along the track now. So these things are in place. 00:31:37.716 --> 00:31:42.556 I get very passionate about building things, about collaborations to tackle new problems. 00:31:43.276 --> 00:31:49.096 When structures are in place, I'm happy and super happy to pass these things 00:31:49.096 --> 00:31:52.176 over and have them keep working. 00:31:52.636 --> 00:31:58.636 I'm very happy to build collaborations. I think that's perhaps one, it is a skill that I have. 00:31:58.676 --> 00:32:02.096 It's playing out now in Australia. I work now in COVID in Australia as well. 00:32:02.676 --> 00:32:06.436 In addition to my work with Fairtrade, I work as a community engagement worker 00:32:06.436 --> 00:32:08.856 on COVID and I work in the vaccination clinics here. 00:32:08.956 --> 00:32:12.016 And Paul, the reason I do that is because our government has worked very hard 00:32:12.016 --> 00:32:18.876 with the medical fraternity here and the scientific community to do what they can to tackle the virus. 00:32:19.556 --> 00:32:22.636 But Paul, my whole life has been about collaboration. It brings in the people. 00:32:22.636 --> 00:32:26.316 So, I work as a community engagement worker in public housing. 00:32:26.496 --> 00:32:31.216 I work on the trust element. I work with the people. We have very strict rules 00:32:31.216 --> 00:32:33.736 here about who can and cannot get vaccinated. 00:32:33.996 --> 00:32:38.216 You can only get vaccinated in Australia if you're 40 years and above. 00:32:39.094 --> 00:32:45.654 But as a community engagement worker, my role, for example, was to speak when it's cleaning, 00:32:45.794 --> 00:32:50.774 the guy who is the supervisor for the cleaning crews that go into our public 00:32:50.774 --> 00:32:57.934 housing to do the deep cleaning and to sterilise all the touch points. 00:32:58.414 --> 00:33:03.174 He asked me, could his staff be vaccinated? Most of them are under 40 and mostly under 30. 00:33:03.694 --> 00:33:07.414 The technical answer is no, but it's my role there to go back app and speak 00:33:07.414 --> 00:33:12.174 to the decision makers and make the case as to why it's really important for 00:33:12.174 --> 00:33:16.454 those that are cleaning public housing towers to actually be vaccinated. 00:33:16.854 --> 00:33:20.494 Otherwise, they're going to be vectors for disaster. So, this is the thing again. 00:33:20.934 --> 00:33:23.694 It's great to have a collaboration. The thing about collaboration too, 00:33:23.774 --> 00:33:27.514 I think there always needs to be room to move for improvement as well. 00:33:28.074 --> 00:33:31.894 And so, it can't be clicky. A collaboration can't be clicky. 00:33:31.934 --> 00:33:34.614 There has to be room in there and there always has to be 00:33:34.614 --> 00:33:37.874 room to recognize the human factor so every collaboration i've 00:33:37.874 --> 00:33:40.734 worked on it's always been around the people like when 00:33:40.734 --> 00:33:43.914 we looked at coffee it wasn't coffee as a commodity to say there's a lot of 00:33:43.914 --> 00:33:47.614 money going into good agricultural practices and this and that um but really 00:33:47.614 --> 00:33:51.554 looking at the people uh what it is that the most vulnerable most disadvantaged 00:33:51.554 --> 00:33:56.734 groups in in that in that value chain what it is they lack um and again to go 00:33:56.734 --> 00:34:00.414 back to collaboration One of the pieces we built into that, because ITC doesn't do finance, 00:34:00.574 --> 00:34:06.914 we brokered the first ever sale of a million dollars worth of coffee from an 00:34:06.914 --> 00:34:13.394 association of women coffee growers in Burundi that we helped set up to plug 00:34:13.394 --> 00:34:16.954 them into banking and finance options as well because. 00:34:18.272 --> 00:34:22.032 There aren't many banks in remote rural areas where coffee is grown, 00:34:22.212 --> 00:34:25.532 and women typically don't have bank accounts in many of those places. 00:34:25.712 --> 00:34:29.052 And so you can talk about economic empowerment, but then you can expose people 00:34:29.052 --> 00:34:33.972 to vulnerability, to attack, actually, quite literally, if you're giving them 00:34:33.972 --> 00:34:38.492 – if they then have money and they don't have a place to store it. 00:34:38.492 --> 00:34:43.152 But now you put your finger on what you do now and that you're, 00:34:43.152 --> 00:34:48.412 as focusing on the community, you see yourself as building trust, 00:34:48.552 --> 00:34:51.492 trying to build trust. Yes. Trust in what? 00:34:52.852 --> 00:34:56.912 What do you want people to trust? I think this is the thing about collaboration. 00:34:57.292 --> 00:35:01.412 Each member of a collaboration, when you're looking at something, 00:35:01.512 --> 00:35:03.632 they either opt in or they opt out. 00:35:03.732 --> 00:35:06.392 And opting in requires sharing in a common vision. 00:35:07.552 --> 00:35:10.272 So you can share in the vision but then you have to 00:35:10.272 --> 00:35:12.932 you have to also have to share in believe in the 00:35:12.932 --> 00:35:15.832 leadership the group that's leading that the group or the person 00:35:15.832 --> 00:35:20.432 typically the entity that's leading that yeah so you need to trust in the vision 00:35:20.432 --> 00:35:24.272 as it's been articulated and typically one would hope you've had some role in 00:35:24.272 --> 00:35:29.332 in in discussing that with the other members of the of the collaboration um 00:35:29.332 --> 00:35:32.972 and the leadership yeah so i think it's that trust in the vision and trust in leadership. 00:35:33.692 --> 00:35:37.872 But there's sort of an ethical issue in that as well, because in some sense, 00:35:37.912 --> 00:35:45.252 you are also a mediator between a larger system, which is in the end your government, 00:35:45.492 --> 00:35:50.072 who imposes certain measures in response to this emergency, 00:35:50.412 --> 00:35:55.112 which you might not necessarily always agree with, right? 00:35:55.232 --> 00:35:57.032 Yes, exactly. Or that you might find limiting. 00:35:58.161 --> 00:36:02.581 But on the other hand, you also know people do have to support this. 00:36:02.681 --> 00:36:07.221 There has to be some compromise in order for us all to get through this with minimal damage. 00:36:07.561 --> 00:36:11.201 So where does the ethics then come in in that decision making? 00:36:11.521 --> 00:36:16.321 I see the bidirectionality, right? You speak to the people, to the community, 00:36:16.561 --> 00:36:21.661 but you also speak with representatives of the system when that system is actually 00:36:21.661 --> 00:36:24.401 not working in a way that you think is proper. 00:36:24.841 --> 00:36:26.641 But where would you draw that line? 00:36:28.161 --> 00:36:32.801 Well, I mean, I suppose that's again a typical role that I've played in most of these things. 00:36:32.861 --> 00:36:37.561 It's been finding, it's been arguing the case for the exceptions to the rules, 00:36:37.701 --> 00:36:40.281 and each case is different. 00:36:40.861 --> 00:36:47.761 So, yes, in terms of our government says you can only be vaccinated 40 and above 00:36:47.761 --> 00:36:51.501 unless there are certain circumstances like health issues, 00:36:51.581 --> 00:36:57.201 this kind of thing, but to be that voice for the cleaners because I understand the system. 00:36:57.201 --> 00:37:00.141 So this is the thing, where there is a collaboration as there is around COVID, 00:37:00.341 --> 00:37:03.761 there needs to be entry points for that. 00:37:03.901 --> 00:37:07.121 And so, if you like, that is the role that I play. In terms of ethics, 00:37:07.401 --> 00:37:15.061 then it comes down to, because I'm part of the COVID vaccination world, 00:37:15.161 --> 00:37:16.381 if you like, decision-making world, 00:37:16.701 --> 00:37:21.201 then it comes down to knowing the players and how far they will go. 00:37:21.201 --> 00:37:30.061 And then it's a call on your own ethics, I suspect, as to how hard and when you want to push. 00:37:31.781 --> 00:37:37.561 Because there will be aspects also of Australian politics and governance that 00:37:37.561 --> 00:37:38.681 you might not agree with. 00:37:39.261 --> 00:37:44.881 Yes. And just to communicate to community members, well, let's trust the system. 00:37:44.981 --> 00:37:46.961 Let's assume that they mean well. 00:37:47.141 --> 00:37:49.961 Let's assume they have also our best interests at heart. 00:37:51.201 --> 00:37:54.241 And then you're back to science, Paul. Then you're back to science because it's 00:37:54.241 --> 00:37:56.861 like with the AstraZeneca vaccine, for example, 00:37:57.401 --> 00:38:07.581 it can cause blood clots in very rare cases and it isn't around typical clotting 00:38:07.581 --> 00:38:11.901 modalities like deep vein thrombosis and illnesses like that. 00:38:11.961 --> 00:38:17.161 It has to do with platelets in the blood, which is very different to deep vein thrombosis. 00:38:17.781 --> 00:38:21.221 So, then it's taking the science and talking to the community. 00:38:21.281 --> 00:38:24.441 It's trusting the governments, trusting in the science, and taking that to the 00:38:24.441 --> 00:38:28.101 community and saying, listen, if you don't, AstraZeneca presents some risks, 00:38:28.281 --> 00:38:31.721 but if you get COVID, you're 10 times more likely to get blood clots. 00:38:31.861 --> 00:38:35.381 That kind of relaying of information back into the community as well. 00:38:36.041 --> 00:38:41.681 Okay. So, but that means you also build, let's say, a ground truth that has 00:38:41.681 --> 00:38:47.301 to be the scientific evidence in some way that you communicate to community members. 00:38:47.601 --> 00:38:54.641 So then, of course, you have this onslaught right now of disinformation in that domain. 00:38:54.861 --> 00:38:57.341 So then how do you deal with this? 00:38:58.968 --> 00:39:02.548 Well, I think, and this is what I've said too, I've pitched this to our management 00:39:02.548 --> 00:39:08.188 as well, then you need to bring in the community leaders from a range of diverse backgrounds. 00:39:08.448 --> 00:39:13.908 There needs to be engagement, even with those who hold what one might consider 00:39:13.908 --> 00:39:16.688 to be the views which are furthest from your own. 00:39:17.128 --> 00:39:20.868 It is to actually engage because if you don't engage, you then ostracise and 00:39:20.868 --> 00:39:23.908 that can lead to its own set of problems. ones. 00:39:24.368 --> 00:39:29.908 And typically, I found over the years that people, they just want to be heard. 00:39:30.088 --> 00:39:32.868 And sometimes once they've been heard, that's all they really needed. 00:39:33.068 --> 00:39:37.728 It's a strange kind of like set of circumstances, but it does seem to be that 00:39:37.728 --> 00:39:39.408 people need to be heard no matter what their views are. 00:39:39.588 --> 00:39:42.688 And once they've been heard, the mere telling of whatever it is their truth 00:39:42.688 --> 00:39:44.488 is seems to, in some ways, diffuse them. 00:39:44.988 --> 00:39:48.468 That doesn't mean you have to take it, you don't have to integrate that into 00:39:48.468 --> 00:39:52.708 your own templates for where to from here in terms of what it is you're going to deliver, 00:39:52.708 --> 00:39:57.748 But you will need to build out a bubble over here that talks about how to also 00:39:57.748 --> 00:40:02.488 engage that group of people as well in the discussion as you move forward, 00:40:02.588 --> 00:40:05.208 even if it's in the opposite direction to what they want. 00:40:06.288 --> 00:40:13.648 Okay. But in some sense, what you seem to express is to also respect if you 00:40:13.648 --> 00:40:17.008 want the agency of every individual in that process. 00:40:17.008 --> 00:40:24.068 Process, but to be heard also means I am acknowledged and I'm affirmed as a 00:40:24.068 --> 00:40:25.568 human being with my opinion. 00:40:25.728 --> 00:40:30.168 So does it really come down to something relatively straightforward like that, 00:40:30.208 --> 00:40:32.308 that we don't listen to what you say? 00:40:33.423 --> 00:40:39.623 No, it does. I think the problem with collaboration comes with the digital age 00:40:39.623 --> 00:40:43.363 in many ways because whereas before you could get people in a room, 00:40:43.483 --> 00:40:45.383 you know yourself well because you've been to many conferences. 00:40:45.863 --> 00:40:49.003 You go to conferences because you're asked to speak. 00:40:49.423 --> 00:40:55.303 But the real joy of going to conferences is the discussions on the margins because 00:40:55.303 --> 00:40:58.463 that's where the frontiers are. 00:40:58.503 --> 00:41:01.183 The frontiers are discussed on the margins because these are ideas which haven't 00:41:01.183 --> 00:41:04.683 yet fully formed. You know, nobody's actually giving a paper on this yet because 00:41:04.683 --> 00:41:07.923 it hasn't actually, it hasn't, it's coming together and you can feel it coming 00:41:07.923 --> 00:41:09.243 together, but it hasn't quite stuck yet. 00:41:09.323 --> 00:41:13.743 So I think those in-person meetings are so rich in what you learn, 00:41:13.843 --> 00:41:16.503 obviously, in the main plenaries and in the workshops and whatnot. 00:41:16.863 --> 00:41:21.523 But certainly in the discussions on the margins, when you really get the electricity 00:41:21.523 --> 00:41:25.963 of thought, you know, and I really miss that because at the moment with the 00:41:25.963 --> 00:41:29.103 COVID lockdown, because what, because unfortunately, 00:41:29.283 --> 00:41:34.223 the flip side of that, and it's been brought out obviously with some of the 00:41:34.223 --> 00:41:38.123 antics of Cambridge Analytica and the persuadables. 00:41:39.423 --> 00:41:43.903 I think the antithesis of that electricity of thought and its exploration of 00:41:43.903 --> 00:41:49.863 frontier knowledge and what could crystallise is the phenomena of the persuadables 00:41:49.863 --> 00:41:54.503 being persuaded by a campaign launched out of somewhere over social media. 00:41:55.023 --> 00:41:59.303 And then you get an ever-expanding understanding of 00:41:59.303 --> 00:42:04.003 something which is just fundamentally false and depending 00:42:04.003 --> 00:42:06.843 on your education system you've either been trained or not 00:42:06.843 --> 00:42:12.863 in analytical thinking or critical thinking and if you haven't and if you surround 00:42:12.863 --> 00:42:18.123 yourself with like-minded people whether that's virtually or literally or physically 00:42:18.123 --> 00:42:22.143 even it's more virtually than not then where where are the counterpoints you 00:42:22.143 --> 00:42:25.603 know where is the where the people to present as other yeah and I think. 00:42:27.363 --> 00:42:32.763 Now we're still in the tail end, hopefully, of this COVID crisis. 00:42:33.303 --> 00:42:36.363 You also engaged then with the new NGO. 00:42:37.574 --> 00:42:42.514 Yes. What are the lessons? So do you have a rule book for yourself now? 00:42:42.594 --> 00:42:46.914 You say, okay, well, given my experience, we did the UN, we did COVID, 00:42:48.314 --> 00:42:50.154 we've seen also how things don't work. 00:42:50.694 --> 00:42:55.234 So now I have a new rule book and there are certain things I should change in 00:42:55.234 --> 00:42:57.034 how I approach building collaboration. 00:42:57.254 --> 00:43:00.234 Do you have such a rule book right now or new rules in the rule book? 00:43:01.414 --> 00:43:04.654 I think I just have experience in the rule book, Paul. um one 00:43:04.654 --> 00:43:07.454 of them is around because coming i mean 00:43:07.454 --> 00:43:10.494 i work for the united nations so that by definition is 00:43:10.494 --> 00:43:13.214 um a whole range of difference you want to talk 00:43:13.214 --> 00:43:16.234 about difference it's all there you know it's by nationality by religion 00:43:16.234 --> 00:43:19.494 by language by anything you know coming back 00:43:19.494 --> 00:43:22.234 to australia now it's it's now i'm you 00:43:22.234 --> 00:43:25.114 know australia i'm an australian in australia this is a different 00:43:25.114 --> 00:43:27.974 thing um yet what i see 00:43:27.974 --> 00:43:31.034 is is that same thing here that the people tend 00:43:31.034 --> 00:43:33.754 towards people who look like 00:43:33.754 --> 00:43:36.734 themselves or speak like themselves but this there's still this grouping thing 00:43:36.734 --> 00:43:41.474 so i think that um to form collaborations that are really going to affect change 00:43:41.474 --> 00:43:47.914 over time um those bonds these these seeming bonds if you like need to be broken 00:43:47.914 --> 00:43:51.914 and people need to be brought in or at least offer the opportunity to participate 00:43:51.914 --> 00:43:55.294 in collaborations to achieve a common objective. 00:43:55.694 --> 00:44:01.654 You can't have one group of people calling the shots. Not in this country. We're very diverse. 00:44:02.034 --> 00:44:09.834 You really need to have all sorts of difference represented in our decision-making 00:44:09.834 --> 00:44:11.054 processes in this country. 00:44:11.174 --> 00:44:15.154 And that's what I'm trying to do today in my role as well. Right. 00:44:15.794 --> 00:44:21.814 But that also then talks about this balance between running fast on your own 00:44:21.814 --> 00:44:24.754 or running further in collaboration. 00:44:25.594 --> 00:44:31.434 And there might be collisions sometimes, right? So maybe you can see very clearly 00:44:31.434 --> 00:44:33.234 how things might go off the rails. 00:44:33.914 --> 00:44:38.954 But then, of course, you could run fast on your own to try to mitigate that. 00:44:39.969 --> 00:44:43.809 But on the other hand, they say, look, but we still have to fuel this collaborative 00:44:43.809 --> 00:44:47.489 process to maybe make these mistakes, but come out better at the end. 00:44:47.589 --> 00:44:49.109 So how do you balance that? 00:44:49.949 --> 00:44:55.569 Well, I think each member of the collaboration has their own terms of reference, 00:44:55.669 --> 00:44:58.089 if you like. And that, to me, is what a collaboration is. 00:44:58.269 --> 00:45:02.269 I mean, in that first example that I gave about the International Trade Center, 00:45:02.409 --> 00:45:07.029 we were the platform, but we had the International Women's Coffee Alliance working on coffee. 00:45:07.729 --> 00:45:13.269 We had We Connect working with the large corporations, you know, these kinds of things. 00:45:13.389 --> 00:45:19.429 And I think this is the thing. It's not my role to tell the different entities how to do their job. 00:45:19.569 --> 00:45:24.209 And I think this is, with the age benefit, I don't know, Asian experience potentially, 00:45:24.529 --> 00:45:28.889 it's not so much a slowing down. 00:45:29.009 --> 00:45:35.049 It's an ability to re-articulate or remind people of our common objective, 00:45:35.049 --> 00:45:41.069 why it's important and to celebrate the wins, you know. And I think that's the 00:45:41.069 --> 00:45:41.969 other thing about a collaboration. 00:45:42.289 --> 00:45:47.329 You have to celebrate the wins, and that has to be interpreted in the language 00:45:47.329 --> 00:45:48.409 of the different entities. 00:45:48.629 --> 00:45:54.409 Like for coffee, for IWCA, it was really important that that contract for a 00:45:54.409 --> 00:45:58.489 million dollars worth of coffee out of Burundi reverberated through their membership, 00:45:58.649 --> 00:46:00.549 you know, that they all got to hear that. 00:46:01.589 --> 00:46:05.429 And when the corporates bought, were able to secure those contracts too, 00:46:05.529 --> 00:46:07.549 that that was celebrated in their community as well. 00:46:07.649 --> 00:46:11.709 So I think it's about celebrating collectively, but also as individual entities 00:46:11.709 --> 00:46:13.209 as well and further spreading. 00:46:14.549 --> 00:46:17.549 Right. But now in some sense, there's a 00:46:17.549 --> 00:46:21.189 trade-off in this balancing of 00:46:21.189 --> 00:46:24.229 running fast on your own or in a small group or 00:46:24.229 --> 00:46:27.809 or good and getting further uh but 00:46:27.809 --> 00:46:30.569 the issues of course the some of 00:46:30.569 --> 00:46:34.029 the crises we face including covid these 00:46:34.029 --> 00:46:38.389 are really emergencies and also if we look at the climate crisis we're facing 00:46:38.389 --> 00:46:43.689 right now globally these are emergence where we might not have that much time 00:46:43.689 --> 00:46:49.529 so does that mean that at some points we have to say okay sorry collaboration 00:46:49.529 --> 00:46:50.569 is important important, 00:46:50.569 --> 00:46:53.749 but we just don't have the time to make it happen, 00:46:53.849 --> 00:46:56.249 so we have to go top down and impose. 00:46:57.009 --> 00:47:01.109 Is that something that you see in the future, or do you think that we have enough 00:47:01.109 --> 00:47:06.429 time to actually in a collaborative fashion address these fundamental challenges? 00:47:09.568 --> 00:47:15.028 There are going to be different groups acting on climate change. 00:47:15.188 --> 00:47:18.128 It's a matter of how they all come together, whether it's the COP or some other 00:47:18.128 --> 00:47:20.508 entity, where decisions can be made. 00:47:20.568 --> 00:47:23.608 But decisions must be made, and that's what I was saying before about one of 00:47:23.608 --> 00:47:29.868 the features of collaboration being leadership and people's trust in that leadership, 00:47:30.048 --> 00:47:33.108 that a decision has to be made and that it is followed through on. 00:47:33.348 --> 00:47:36.168 And there have been times when, as a leader, I have had different people, 00:47:36.588 --> 00:47:40.328 members of the collaboration, come up with an emergency that needs to be solved 00:47:40.328 --> 00:47:42.768 right now, and I have made decisions and called the shots. 00:47:43.288 --> 00:47:51.408 And there have been different feedback on that, that they were not consulted 00:47:51.408 --> 00:47:53.328 or this or that, you know, this kind of thing. 00:47:54.008 --> 00:47:56.888 But then again, I think this is one of the qualities of leadership. 00:47:58.968 --> 00:48:02.508 Leaders have to be able to, should be people who can lead. I mean, 00:48:02.528 --> 00:48:06.848 it sounds ridiculous, but that's what I'm saying. I think leaders should be able to lead. 00:48:07.648 --> 00:48:12.368 We do need to collaborate we need to consult that's hugely important and I think 00:48:12.368 --> 00:48:16.688 also one of the highlights of a good leader is to ensure that the right people 00:48:16.688 --> 00:48:19.868 in the room or that all of the people who need to be in the room are in the room, 00:48:20.548 --> 00:48:23.828 and then you can further break them down into working groups on A, 00:48:23.928 --> 00:48:26.908 B, C, D there's too many people and just break them into different working groups 00:48:26.908 --> 00:48:31.528 and give them their to-do and let themselves identify which part of collaboration, 00:48:32.128 --> 00:48:36.208 they want to pick up and work on great and then just manage that you know coordinate 00:48:36.208 --> 00:48:41.108 that But yeah, I think actually calling it, like making a call when you have 00:48:41.108 --> 00:48:42.308 to, is extremely important. 00:48:42.528 --> 00:48:45.348 And I think that's what we're facing with climate change also, Bob. 00:48:46.028 --> 00:48:49.648 Really, I think even from Germany to Belgium recently, the rains and floods, 00:48:49.968 --> 00:48:53.428 to other countries which have been experiencing the brunt of this. 00:48:53.488 --> 00:48:56.928 I mean, ideally bringing it close to the Pacific now, countries are going underwater. 00:48:58.088 --> 00:49:06.908 Yeah. In your experience, who stands out as leaders who did it right? 00:49:07.028 --> 00:49:08.548 And what made them stand out? 00:49:11.207 --> 00:49:15.327 The New Zealand Prime Minister. Look at that woman. My God. Yeah. 00:49:15.627 --> 00:49:18.887 You know? I mean, she's a woman and a half, that one. 00:49:19.087 --> 00:49:28.787 When that Australian guy shot the massacred people worshipping in the mosque, 00:49:28.927 --> 00:49:34.247 you know, and she donned a hijab and spoke of sorrow and she refused to say his name. 00:49:34.887 --> 00:49:40.087 Wow. You know, that kind of leadership. She was the first person, 00:49:40.147 --> 00:49:46.067 I think, to, if I recall correctly, to shut down a city, let alone a country, in response to COVID. 00:49:46.707 --> 00:49:51.287 You know, she called that very early and she put people, because when small 00:49:51.287 --> 00:49:56.587 business is closed, they bleed, you know, and the ramifications are vast. 00:49:56.707 --> 00:50:02.327 I mean, I lead the development of the cut flower category at Fairtrade. 00:50:03.007 --> 00:50:06.367 We're setting up Fairtrade certified cut roses into Australia now. 00:50:06.367 --> 00:50:08.587 Now, it's a new category here on top of coffee, tea, chocolate, 00:50:08.587 --> 00:50:09.787 and all the rest of it that Fairtrade does. 00:50:10.127 --> 00:50:13.787 And our florists are closed. We're in lockdown. It's our fifth lockdown in Victoria. 00:50:14.127 --> 00:50:21.787 The florists are closed. So that causes enormous hardship to the florists in Victoria. 00:50:22.427 --> 00:50:28.307 But also, for example, at the farm level, we import roses from East Africa. 00:50:28.527 --> 00:50:34.087 I've got a project funded by the Enhanced Integrated Framework, which is part of the WTO. 00:50:34.087 --> 00:50:39.407 I'm in Ethiopia you know where Ethiopia is right now it's in dire straits Tigray 00:50:39.407 --> 00:50:44.747 province yeah so we locked down in Melbourne and you have the echo's. 00:50:46.100 --> 00:50:50.220 In east africa but so anyway but leadership just 00:50:50.220 --> 00:50:53.120 in turn okay prime minister okay yes in 00:50:53.120 --> 00:50:58.500 our during this is is number one on the list do you have other examples um or 00:50:58.500 --> 00:51:08.140 is she so exemplary and far above the rest no i think um in india yes the hugging 00:51:08.140 --> 00:51:11.840 tonight yeah um what why do i think that But she's, 00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:14.300 of the many reasons, I think she's amazing. 00:51:16.280 --> 00:51:20.220 You know, she has that amazing university down in Cruella there, 00:51:21.160 --> 00:51:26.400 and she has a hospital, she's built a hospital and a university and she integrated 00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:32.760 the neuroscience part of the university into the hospital. It's actually not 00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:34.040 on the university grounds at all. 00:51:34.120 --> 00:51:37.140 It's in the hospital because what she wanted to see, as you know, 00:51:37.180 --> 00:51:42.680 Paul, she wanted to see the academics working very closely with the problems 00:51:42.680 --> 00:51:43.820 and solving real problems. 00:51:44.080 --> 00:51:48.100 And I think that's, and with astonishing outcomes, they have a little probe 00:51:48.100 --> 00:51:54.440 that they can test whether or not the lips have been, they have the skin cancers 00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:56.300 on the lips from chewing the pan and whatnot. 00:51:56.600 --> 00:52:02.040 And so I think that's, I think the way she conceives, she conceptualises not 00:52:02.040 --> 00:52:06.600 only problems but solving problems and her amazing ability to mobilise millions 00:52:06.600 --> 00:52:09.460 in that regard is astonishing as well. 00:52:09.740 --> 00:52:12.660 So, Paul, I think that speaks to something else. 00:52:12.780 --> 00:52:16.140 I mean, we've been largely talking about governmental responses and we've completely 00:52:16.140 --> 00:52:22.820 ignored the power of religion to convene as well. And clearly there's a lot in that as well. 00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:28.100 Yeah, but in some sense, globally, and certainly in the Western world, 00:52:28.160 --> 00:52:30.200 religion is losing ground, right? 00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:34.560 And then the question is, what are the alternative frameworks works that we 00:52:34.560 --> 00:52:39.640 can then deploy to again, re-stabilize large scale collaboration. 00:52:41.149 --> 00:52:47.549 You think that, and yet here in Australia, it is Anglicare, for example, the Anglican Church, 00:52:47.869 --> 00:52:52.609 the Catholic Church, which have provided strong responses, which are big players 00:52:52.609 --> 00:52:57.569 in aged care here, and collaborating with the government about the situations 00:52:57.569 --> 00:53:01.709 of management of COVID in care facilities here. 00:53:01.709 --> 00:53:05.049 You um the church at least in australia retains 00:53:05.049 --> 00:53:08.569 uh quite a lot of its um if 00:53:08.569 --> 00:53:11.249 you like influence i was gonna say power but i think 00:53:11.249 --> 00:53:14.009 it's more influence these days um and is 00:53:14.009 --> 00:53:20.049 still very active in areas such as homelessness and so um it's on the decline 00:53:20.049 --> 00:53:25.469 but i think it's only it's it's a function of individualism in many ways people 00:53:25.469 --> 00:53:29.889 coming up don't desire religions it's a people People are picking and choosing 00:53:29.889 --> 00:53:33.109 spirituality over religion, whatever that may mean to them. 00:53:33.569 --> 00:53:37.489 But I don't think that that's going to last long, to tell you the truth. 00:53:37.609 --> 00:53:41.029 I think whether it's Confucianism, Islam, Christianity. 00:53:41.789 --> 00:53:46.389 Or any one of a number of faiths with long history, 00:53:46.609 --> 00:53:52.589 I think that there will be, if you like, a renaissance of traditional religions 00:53:52.589 --> 00:53:57.569 in the not-too-distant future as people get frustrated with the outcomes outcomes 00:53:57.569 --> 00:54:02.709 of selecting or picking and choosing and what they think is going to work for them. 00:54:03.349 --> 00:54:10.189 Right. So to go to the conclusions or the finish line in that sense, 00:54:10.309 --> 00:54:15.769 do you believe humans will ever be able to really collaborate in a sustainable 00:54:15.769 --> 00:54:18.449 way on a global scale? Is it even possible? 00:54:20.759 --> 00:54:26.239 We collaborate. I think the sustainability is a concept which is now taking 00:54:26.239 --> 00:54:28.499 root in the minds of just about everybody around the planet. 00:54:28.939 --> 00:54:32.299 When we look at microplastics in fish and so on and so forth, 00:54:32.339 --> 00:54:33.399 the awareness is growing there. 00:54:33.639 --> 00:54:38.319 And as we live through the impact of the changing weather patterns and so on, 00:54:38.339 --> 00:54:41.299 I think we're starting to realise that sustainability, 00:54:42.139 --> 00:54:46.599 needs to be integrated into probably all aspects of decision-making, 00:54:46.759 --> 00:54:50.319 particularly decision-making done by groups who are collaborating to achieve an outcome. 00:54:50.759 --> 00:54:54.219 I think whatever the outcome was that we were looking for before the goal, 00:54:54.399 --> 00:54:59.359 whatever goal with the collaborations were coming together just to achieve before, 00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:04.359 in terms of the process of realising that goal, there's going to need to be 00:55:04.359 --> 00:55:09.379 a stronger look, a stronger understanding of an integration of the sustainability there. 00:55:10.139 --> 00:55:13.979 I think it's really important, the works that you're doing, Convergent Science 00:55:13.979 --> 00:55:18.239 Network, because I think that in particular, as you know, there's very little 00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:22.339 work that's been actually done on the science, such as there may be one, of collaboration. 00:55:23.299 --> 00:55:27.379 And I think it's really timely, Paul, that you're looking at this. 00:55:27.879 --> 00:55:31.139 What is it? What are the basic pillars of collaboration? 00:55:31.479 --> 00:55:37.979 Because I think if sustainability has not yet been integrated into collaborations, 00:55:38.319 --> 00:55:42.539 then it needs to be a factor which is urgently considered, 00:55:42.939 --> 00:55:48.479 whether that's looking looking at how to dispose of the millions and billions 00:55:48.479 --> 00:55:50.239 of masks that are being discarded. 00:55:51.639 --> 00:55:55.179 Yeah, different ways of dealing with the virus. 00:55:56.660 --> 00:56:03.480 Biohazard waste. In Australia, it costs $400 to dispose of a 35-litre garbage 00:56:03.480 --> 00:56:07.040 bag of biohazard waste, which is basically what we use. 00:56:07.460 --> 00:56:13.140 When we change masks and the gloves and so on, that's $400 a go. 00:56:13.320 --> 00:56:14.260 That's really expensive. 00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:18.600 So I think the science is really important. What you're looking at now is really important. 00:56:18.860 --> 00:56:22.240 And if you can weave in sustainability, I think that would be a big win for the planet. 00:56:22.460 --> 00:56:25.440 But do you believe humans will be able to do it 00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:28.740 to collaborate on a 00:56:28.740 --> 00:56:31.600 large we do paul i don't know how much political science you've done 00:56:31.600 --> 00:56:34.260 but if you go back way back to social contract theory that's what we 00:56:34.260 --> 00:56:38.900 do you know we give up some of our rights to be governed um by a by a sovereign 00:56:38.900 --> 00:56:43.220 and it's always been about the it's always been about property um the protection 00:56:43.220 --> 00:56:48.180 of property whether it's your physical property or or you yourself as you know 00:56:48.180 --> 00:56:51.720 property in terms of enslavement i mean this is basic social contract theory, 00:56:52.060 --> 00:56:57.000 we've always collaborated with each other to defend against the other as well, 00:56:57.120 --> 00:57:00.300 against the attacker, you know. 00:57:01.340 --> 00:57:05.520 That one's political science 101, and I think that's a really big part of collaboration as well. 00:57:05.900 --> 00:57:08.400 I mean, you need to watch something like Mars Attacks or something, 00:57:08.480 --> 00:57:12.460 one of those movies, you know, where there's some existential threat coming 00:57:12.460 --> 00:57:15.840 from afar, and then all of a sudden we're pushed to collaborate. 00:57:16.160 --> 00:57:19.420 And actually, you don't have to watch Mars Attacks. You can just use COVID as 00:57:19.420 --> 00:57:20.340 a casing point, you know. 00:57:20.340 --> 00:57:24.600 You know, I think, and again, and I really, I believe in the United Nations 00:57:24.600 --> 00:57:28.740 as the platform for collaboration, because no matter what it is, 00:57:28.760 --> 00:57:31.700 whether it's a threat to peace and security, or whether it's a threat to health, 00:57:31.900 --> 00:57:34.840 the UN, we have been successful and humanity has been successful. 00:57:34.840 --> 00:57:35.860 But that's interesting, right? 00:57:35.900 --> 00:57:39.060 Because you say, we can do it as long as we're on the threat. 00:57:39.980 --> 00:57:43.780 Yes. As long as there's a threat, we can do it. But then, so, 00:57:43.880 --> 00:57:48.000 but if you could change one thing in humans to make them more effective in collaborating, 00:57:48.300 --> 00:57:49.760 what is the one thing you would change? 00:57:53.311 --> 00:57:59.631 Listen is the first thing that comes to mind. Have people be a little bit more patient and listen? 00:58:01.071 --> 00:58:06.011 No, I would, no, no, no, no. I'd say compassion. I would, if I could turn up 00:58:06.011 --> 00:58:07.711 the volume on anything, it would be compassion. 00:58:08.431 --> 00:58:10.631 Because I think if people were more compassionate, they would, 00:58:10.691 --> 00:58:12.051 by definition, they would listen more. 00:58:12.211 --> 00:58:15.291 But if people were more compassionate, if I looked at you, Paul, 00:58:15.331 --> 00:58:21.511 and if I didn't see a Caucasian male, if I saw, if I weren't blocked by what 00:58:21.511 --> 00:58:22.691 I see, do you know what I mean? 00:58:22.691 --> 00:58:27.611 Or if I weren't reacting either positively or negatively against what I see, 00:58:27.731 --> 00:58:31.391 if I looked at you as somebody who might catch COVID, you know what I mean? 00:58:31.631 --> 00:58:33.891 If I looked at you and didn't speak white, black, and brown, 00:58:33.911 --> 00:58:37.171 if I thought, oh, there's someone, an entity that could catch COVID, 00:58:37.271 --> 00:58:40.651 and if everybody in front of me I saw as somebody who could catch COVID, 00:58:40.711 --> 00:58:42.871 I think that would amp up the compassion. 00:58:43.931 --> 00:58:50.671 So I think compassion can be something which can overcome become the visual, 00:58:50.951 --> 00:58:55.551 oral in terms of linguistic and different accents and so on, 00:58:55.651 --> 00:59:01.471 or reactions against different, I'm sure wearing a cross or a hijab or something. I think compassion. 00:59:02.471 --> 00:59:05.691 If you're looking at a collaboration, if you're looking to achieve a goal, 00:59:06.031 --> 00:59:10.911 if humans could be more compassionate, I think we would collaborate more easily. 00:59:11.071 --> 00:59:14.191 We could perhaps also have compassion for our planet and work more effectively 00:59:14.191 --> 00:59:19.551 on sustainable outcomes as well. So, Mick Jones, thank you very much for this conversation. 00:59:20.571 --> 00:59:25.971 Thank you very much. Hi, you listened to one of our podcasts in the series on 00:59:25.971 --> 00:59:30.811 collaboration produced by the Ernst Trumund Forum and the Conversion Science Network. 00:59:31.571 --> 00:59:34.491 You can find more episodes on our website.