WEBVTT 00:00:04.954 --> 00:00:08.914 Hi, I'm Paul Vesure, and together with my colleague Babani Rao, 00:00:09.094 --> 00:00:11.794 we are speaking with Dr. Deepa Narayan. 00:00:13.314 --> 00:00:19.974 For over 25 years, Deepa advised United Nations and various NGOs on issues related 00:00:19.974 --> 00:00:22.514 to poverty, gender, and development. 00:00:23.834 --> 00:00:28.914 She served as Senior Advisor to the Vice President's Office of the Poverty Reduction 00:00:28.914 --> 00:00:32.914 Group at the World Bank, and has extensive experience with local, 00:00:33.054 --> 00:00:36.514 community-driven approaches to improving the quality of life. 00:00:37.434 --> 00:00:41.694 Maybe to start our dialogue and analysis of collaboration, 00:00:42.594 --> 00:00:45.754 maybe you can just describe with your background, your different roles, 00:00:46.574 --> 00:00:53.454 and how you grew into the person you are today with respect to these fundamental 00:00:53.454 --> 00:00:54.894 discussions around collaboration. 00:00:55.894 --> 00:00:57.334 What a simple question. 00:00:58.414 --> 00:01:00.054 Yeah, I will start simple, you know. 00:01:03.174 --> 00:01:06.354 Okay well i'm going to talk about a 00:01:06.354 --> 00:01:09.334 bit about my professional life and then of course the personal 00:01:09.334 --> 00:01:15.834 is important um i've worked on poverty issues for the last 35 years i've lived 00:01:15.834 --> 00:01:21.854 in villages for about 10 years i've worked with women's groups i worked with 00:01:21.854 --> 00:01:29.014 small ngos and then Then I spent almost 20 years with the UN and then with the World Bank. 00:01:29.074 --> 00:01:31.714 And at the World Bank, the last five years, I was senior advisor. 00:01:33.254 --> 00:01:38.294 My interest has always been value-based change. 00:01:38.974 --> 00:01:43.334 And at the time, I couldn't have articulated it like that. 00:01:43.474 --> 00:01:47.074 But that's what I've been interested in. And on a personal basis, 00:01:47.554 --> 00:01:50.714 I come from a family of five kids. 00:01:50.714 --> 00:01:55.374 And when there are five kids fighting for attention and resources, 00:01:55.794 --> 00:01:58.534 you either compete or you collaborate. 00:01:59.934 --> 00:02:07.034 There are only two things. And I think it was mostly passive collaboration and 00:02:07.034 --> 00:02:12.854 sometimes active and intentional collaboration when we would gang up to get 00:02:12.854 --> 00:02:15.014 something out of my parents or out of, 00:02:15.014 --> 00:02:17.574 you know, grandparents or something like that. 00:02:17.574 --> 00:02:25.494 And I've also studied collaboration, particularly in the area of poverty and 00:02:25.494 --> 00:02:32.034 women's groups, as well as what makes large-scale programs and projects work. 00:02:33.374 --> 00:02:37.014 Lastly, in the last two years during COVID, 00:02:37.394 --> 00:02:46.854 I've done a big piece of research interviewing men, highly educated men and boys, 00:02:47.134 --> 00:02:51.954 young boys going to school, as young as seven years old, trying to understand 00:02:51.954 --> 00:02:54.854 what it means to be a man. What does masculinity mean? 00:02:56.174 --> 00:03:00.534 All right. Well, that's a good one to keep for our conclusions, 00:03:00.874 --> 00:03:03.334 I guess. Yes. I think it's central. 00:03:04.314 --> 00:03:07.574 Central. Okay, well, then we will bring it up earlier. 00:03:08.774 --> 00:03:14.214 But now, so before we go into the specifics, right? 00:03:14.294 --> 00:03:17.594 So what is collaboration and what is it good for? 00:03:19.794 --> 00:03:24.174 I mean, there are many definitions, but intuitively, I think what it means is, 00:03:24.834 --> 00:03:31.974 when two or more individuals or groups or communities or countries come together 00:03:31.974 --> 00:03:38.794 to achieve a shared goal with some degree of volunteerism, 00:03:38.854 --> 00:03:41.154 so it's not based on coercion. 00:03:42.974 --> 00:03:49.794 Okay. So what you emphasize is shared goal and volition. 00:03:50.614 --> 00:03:56.674 Volition, yep. But if we talk about defining features of collaboration, 00:03:56.674 --> 00:04:02.494 Would these be the two outstanding defining features for you, or would you see others? 00:04:05.514 --> 00:04:11.194 For me right now, what I would say, particularly based on the work on masculinity 00:04:11.194 --> 00:04:14.554 and then looking back at community-led development, 00:04:14.694 --> 00:04:21.554 where I did an analysis of hundreds of groups that succeeded at the local level, 00:04:21.554 --> 00:04:27.074 I would say that there are two things that are critical for sustained collaboration, 00:04:27.434 --> 00:04:32.694 collaboration over time, and that is power and love. 00:04:34.275 --> 00:04:41.155 And most of development and most of the work and collaboration focuses on power and rules. 00:04:41.675 --> 00:04:46.555 And I think the missing ingredient is love. 00:04:47.235 --> 00:04:50.835 And that's what I've learned from the hundreds of interviews I've done with 00:04:50.835 --> 00:04:52.455 men and before that with women. 00:04:53.655 --> 00:04:57.315 But let's see what that then exactly means, right? 00:04:57.315 --> 00:05:02.375 So if we have goals, intention, 00:05:02.735 --> 00:05:13.195 or volition, or absence of coercion, and love and power, what do these things actually really mean? 00:05:13.275 --> 00:05:18.915 Because you also applied that to individuals, to groups, but also institutions and countries. 00:05:19.235 --> 00:05:25.435 Yeah. Right. So now I have some sort of matrix structure and I want to plug in your definitions. 00:05:25.835 --> 00:05:31.155 Exactly. Absolutely. Absolutely. I knew you would do that. I'm so predictable. 00:05:33.015 --> 00:05:40.615 That's perfect. I think codification is important to achieve large-scale success. 00:05:41.695 --> 00:05:45.535 But I think there's been, in everything that I see, there's been one missing ingredient. 00:05:46.455 --> 00:05:49.655 And the missing ingredients are things that we can't see. 00:05:49.795 --> 00:05:54.775 So I think what's been missing and needs to be spelled out in collaboration 00:05:54.775 --> 00:05:59.495 is the underlying values and human passions. 00:05:59.775 --> 00:06:03.295 And that's kind of hard to put into boxes, right? 00:06:03.675 --> 00:06:09.515 So let me talk about the framework of power and love, which is what I'm going 00:06:09.515 --> 00:06:11.415 to be calling Feminism X, 00:06:12.355 --> 00:06:17.575 resulting from these 250 interviews with men and before that, 00:06:17.655 --> 00:06:20.515 600 interviews with women, educated women. 00:06:21.699 --> 00:06:32.019 So, in terms of when you think about collaboration, it's, you assume it's about shared power, right? 00:06:32.099 --> 00:06:36.119 People that there are two things that come out in terms of power. 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:42.099 One is what kind of power and usually it's been power over people which gets 00:06:42.099 --> 00:06:45.579 into coercion, even though it's not meant to be. 00:06:46.299 --> 00:06:50.739 And the other kinds of power is power with. 00:06:51.699 --> 00:06:55.599 Which is shared power, which comes into what I was talking about, 00:06:55.739 --> 00:07:00.139 which is collaboration in the way I'm talking about it. 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:06.279 And the third kind of power is power within or internal power. 00:07:06.859 --> 00:07:12.979 And I think we don't separate out these different kinds of power. 00:07:13.059 --> 00:07:17.979 And most of what we see, especially in large organizations, but also the community 00:07:17.979 --> 00:07:22.219 and the family level, is the first one, which is power over. 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:26.959 So let me start with the family or with couples, and then you can apply the 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:28.659 same framework to organizations. 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:37.999 So why is it today that we still have one in three women around the world experiencing 00:07:37.999 --> 00:07:39.799 physical and sexual violence? 00:07:40.299 --> 00:07:44.259 One in three, right? And no country is spared. 00:07:44.499 --> 00:07:48.519 It's in the West, it's in India, it's in Africa, 00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:51.299 it's uh it's in sweden 00:07:51.299 --> 00:07:54.199 so that is 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:57.259 power over and what's been totally lacking 00:07:57.259 --> 00:08:02.859 in feminism and in organization development is the other aspect which is love 00:08:02.859 --> 00:08:11.739 so what do i mean by love love to me is kindness caring compassion and collaboration 00:08:11.739 --> 00:08:17.219 so kindness caring sharing, collaboration, 00:08:17.779 --> 00:08:18.419 compassion. 00:08:18.779 --> 00:08:25.159 And without that, you can achieve collaboration, but when there are difficulties, 00:08:25.719 --> 00:08:29.239 it's going to fall apart or it's going to be sabotaged. 00:08:29.339 --> 00:08:41.039 So that the internal honoring of people and tapping into that is difficult primarily 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:42.939 because we've ignored its power. 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:49.159 So now let me come to communities, right? So we talked about individuals. 00:08:49.559 --> 00:08:53.859 So individuals, what I'm finding, by the way, I'll just say this in terms of 00:08:53.859 --> 00:09:01.779 my discussions with men, is masculinity and power are completely intertwined. 00:09:02.939 --> 00:09:07.339 So when you ask them, what does it mean to be a man? It's all about power, 00:09:07.439 --> 00:09:09.219 being muscular, being strong. 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:14.499 And there's nothing wrong with that. But if that's the only song you can sing, it's rather limited. 00:09:18.599 --> 00:09:21.159 No cisgender man talked about love. 00:09:23.328 --> 00:09:30.668 As a core attribute of masculinity, right? But they were very comfortable talking about power. 00:09:32.168 --> 00:09:38.248 So when I talked to women and asked women, what are the three words that come 00:09:38.248 --> 00:09:41.028 to your mind when you think about being a woman? 00:09:41.168 --> 00:09:47.628 It was many women talked about love, nurturing, kindness, mother. 00:09:48.428 --> 00:09:55.048 And only one woman talked about power. So the problem is that power without 00:09:55.048 --> 00:09:59.528 love is abusive and love without power invites abuse. 00:09:59.888 --> 00:10:05.128 And you can apply this at the organizational level, you know, 00:10:05.148 --> 00:10:11.108 how a large company is organized and manages its workers. 00:10:11.108 --> 00:10:18.808 Or you can think about it in terms of global collaboration or negotiation. 00:10:20.168 --> 00:10:28.608 So the thing about this whole setup is that collaboration happens when rules 00:10:28.608 --> 00:10:30.648 or boundaries are clear. 00:10:31.808 --> 00:10:39.548 And if the focus is only on formal rules and not informal rules based on trust 00:10:39.548 --> 00:10:43.428 and love and dignity, it falls apart. 00:10:43.848 --> 00:10:47.568 So the indicator that it's all 00:10:47.568 --> 00:10:55.008 about power is when there's lots of litigation, like in the U.S. Mm-hmm. 00:10:57.024 --> 00:11:02.644 But you seem to see this dialectic between power and love. 00:11:02.904 --> 00:11:08.684 Yeah. Would that be correct? And then you also match that to the sexes, right? 00:11:09.084 --> 00:11:12.804 And the challenge is how we have, 00:11:12.864 --> 00:11:17.464 I think each individual has both power and love within themselves, 00:11:17.524 --> 00:11:25.244 but that the way society has defined masculinity or has defined male roles and 00:11:25.244 --> 00:11:28.324 female roles has divided it. 00:11:29.084 --> 00:11:32.484 It's outsourced power to men and love to women. 00:11:32.664 --> 00:11:39.244 And the problem is, how can both men and women integrate power and love within 00:11:39.244 --> 00:11:42.024 themselves and be valued for it? 00:11:43.044 --> 00:11:49.004 Okay. On the other hand, I could also argue that love implies power. 00:11:50.104 --> 00:11:54.804 How can you argue that? Well, love is something like... Blame that. 00:11:56.664 --> 00:12:01.144 Love, the love, love can be withheld, right? 00:12:01.244 --> 00:12:12.484 So that means with that, I exert also power as long as the other is in need of that love, right? 00:12:12.524 --> 00:12:19.744 And similarly, the power of a carer over the one that needs care, 00:12:20.004 --> 00:12:25.244 right, in itself is also exerted as an expression of love. 00:12:26.525 --> 00:12:32.385 So I'm not sure whether I can see what you're saying, but if we dig a little 00:12:32.385 --> 00:12:36.205 bit deeper, I think these boundaries are maybe not as clear cut. 00:12:37.925 --> 00:12:40.785 So is that something we should worry about? 00:12:40.965 --> 00:12:47.585 Or you think for your analysis of collaboration, that's more academic discussion and not really? 00:12:47.865 --> 00:12:52.765 No, I think the question you're raising is important. But what I'm saying is 00:12:52.765 --> 00:13:00.345 that if it's only love in the sense of caring, kindness, love does not mean anything goes. 00:13:01.925 --> 00:13:07.865 Right? Love has to be boundaried. So when there's abuse, you have to have a 00:13:07.865 --> 00:13:10.265 boundary and say, no, it's not all right. 00:13:11.005 --> 00:13:16.505 So in that sense, love and power go together in sort of an infinity circle. 00:13:16.505 --> 00:13:24.105 But what I'm arguing has happened is that the two have separated, right? 00:13:25.225 --> 00:13:26.645 And that's the problem. 00:13:28.445 --> 00:13:31.925 And so let me just say one more thing. So if you think about, 00:13:32.125 --> 00:13:37.505 let me draw the parallels between my work at communities where we looked at 00:13:37.505 --> 00:13:44.285 literally hundreds of cases of community action where, whether it was an irrigation or sanitation or, 00:13:44.365 --> 00:13:49.045 you know, child care and in large scale projects, 00:13:49.365 --> 00:13:56.445 what we found is that what distinguished successful ones from not so successful 00:13:56.445 --> 00:14:02.665 ones was the clarity in rules of how to solve conflict. 00:14:04.665 --> 00:14:10.405 And so that comes back again to how do you manage power and love, 00:14:10.505 --> 00:14:18.265 but if it is only based on legal rules without goodwill, 00:14:18.405 --> 00:14:21.465 it still doesn't work. Mm-hmm. 00:14:22.681 --> 00:14:32.381 Okay, I understand, but that seems to hint at an underlying universe of traits 00:14:32.381 --> 00:14:38.601 and issues that go beyond the surface expression of power and love. 00:14:38.761 --> 00:14:44.901 Because, for instance, you mentioned trust, but maybe we also have to think of reciprocity, right? 00:14:44.981 --> 00:14:49.641 It's also about the risk people engage in, if you talk in the case of love, 00:14:49.841 --> 00:14:55.781 right? It's risky, but if that risk is reciprocated, then there is some sort of balance. 00:14:56.081 --> 00:15:02.721 So isn't that underlying force, if you want, not one of reciprocity? 00:15:03.601 --> 00:15:07.861 Yeah, well, love is, I mean, what is love? Love is really about trust, 00:15:08.021 --> 00:15:15.261 trusting that the other person is there for you, has your back. 00:15:15.421 --> 00:15:18.641 That's the expression that kept coming back from these interviews. 00:15:18.641 --> 00:15:21.521 Use. Somebody has my back, right? 00:15:21.701 --> 00:15:26.041 So love is, the foundation of love is trust. 00:15:27.181 --> 00:15:31.521 And without that trust and attachment, nothing is possible. 00:15:31.721 --> 00:15:38.681 It gets into abuse and isolation and violations, et cetera. 00:15:38.861 --> 00:15:42.721 And love is relational, right? 00:15:42.881 --> 00:15:50.921 So the moment it's relational, there has to be reciprocity. And that reciprocity has to be consistent. 00:15:51.321 --> 00:15:59.921 So once you get into power and love imbuing each other, 00:16:00.201 --> 00:16:09.221 then you have other ways of enforcing collaboration or ensuring collaboration 00:16:09.221 --> 00:16:15.241 rather than total dependence on litigation and formal rules, 00:16:15.241 --> 00:16:17.341 agreements that you'd already made. 00:16:17.641 --> 00:16:23.181 Right. But now, can you give examples of also how did you come to that insight? 00:16:23.661 --> 00:16:30.101 So you looked at complex collaborative processes, and at some point in your 00:16:30.101 --> 00:16:31.681 mind that penny must have dropped. 00:16:31.821 --> 00:16:35.721 Like, hey, this is the way, these are the dimensions in which I can analyze 00:16:35.721 --> 00:16:38.481 this. So how did that happen? What was the example? 00:16:39.661 --> 00:16:45.721 That happened very, very recently. Definitely. And because I'm also, 00:16:45.861 --> 00:16:48.141 you know, my background is in policy. 00:16:48.421 --> 00:16:51.381 And in the policy world, you don't talk about love. 00:16:52.121 --> 00:16:58.661 It was a lot to talk about power itself, which is really from political science and sociology. 00:16:58.841 --> 00:17:03.321 And then psychology contributes individuals. Actually, it's a very good question. 00:17:03.381 --> 00:17:07.461 The penny dropped for me when I started looking and re-looking at the patents, 00:17:07.621 --> 00:17:12.141 and this comes back to coding, men's interviews. 00:17:14.264 --> 00:17:21.584 And one of the interviews that was most telling for me is actually two things. 00:17:22.004 --> 00:17:27.964 One is what I already told you I realized at the end of 10 episodes. 00:17:28.184 --> 00:17:32.764 So rather than writing a book, I did a podcast called What's a Man? 00:17:33.964 --> 00:17:42.224 And one of the things when I was doing almost the last podcast cast was at the 00:17:42.224 --> 00:17:48.504 realization that men had been so open about so many issues about their sexual life, 00:17:48.684 --> 00:17:51.324 their work lives, all their problems. 00:17:52.084 --> 00:17:58.384 But love was something that they had great difficulty talking about. 00:17:58.644 --> 00:18:04.344 Even father's love, right? Or love as couples or love for children, etc. 00:18:04.584 --> 00:18:12.104 That was one. The second was this man who spoke about, who's very successful, 00:18:12.304 --> 00:18:17.544 who's a CEO of a large international company, who's very competitive, 00:18:17.864 --> 00:18:28.384 who's very proudly a good negotiator and quite assertive or even aggressive, 00:18:28.524 --> 00:18:31.264 aggressive, I would call as he using his words. 00:18:31.264 --> 00:18:39.344 Guards but in his personal life he said I can't be aggressive and so with my 00:18:39.344 --> 00:18:47.744 wife I have to use a different approach and what he's struggling with is he cannot stop competing. 00:18:51.024 --> 00:18:57.884 And when I talked to him about his friends he said there's never a time when I can drop my guard 00:18:58.144 --> 00:19:01.124 when we as friends get together 00:19:01.124 --> 00:19:04.204 we're still always competing in terms of who 00:19:04.204 --> 00:19:10.444 has more who has a better wife who has more money etc so I asked him is there 00:19:10.444 --> 00:19:17.004 any time that you have within you feel you don't have to be on guard and he 00:19:17.004 --> 00:19:21.244 thought and he said when we're drunk. 00:19:25.284 --> 00:19:28.724 And then he started feeling sad about it, right? 00:19:29.064 --> 00:19:33.404 But that was a deep confession and the penny didn't drop then. 00:19:33.684 --> 00:19:36.924 But then when I started thinking about what is really happening here, 00:19:37.084 --> 00:19:43.284 it was his inability to let go of competition because of the deep insecurity 00:19:43.284 --> 00:19:48.604 that if you're not constantly competing, you're not a man. 00:19:50.291 --> 00:19:54.471 And I think that's the problem in terms of male-female relationships, 00:19:54.591 --> 00:19:58.271 which is all about power and love gets squeezed out. 00:19:58.391 --> 00:20:02.331 So how can you bring back love in here? And that's a struggle if I think of 00:20:02.331 --> 00:20:03.831 it in the power and love framework. 00:20:04.251 --> 00:20:09.531 Right. But now, would that imply that in terms of collaboration, 00:20:09.751 --> 00:20:14.591 we also have to look at two realms of collaboration, one realm based on power 00:20:14.591 --> 00:20:17.131 and competition, another realm based on love? 00:20:17.131 --> 00:20:20.211 And the two are really segregated? 00:20:21.351 --> 00:20:25.911 No. Okay. It's this infinity circle, right, 00:20:26.051 --> 00:20:31.511 that has to go around because I was really inspired by Martin Luther King who 00:20:31.511 --> 00:20:37.411 talks about power without love is abuse. 00:20:37.511 --> 00:20:45.931 I mean, my version of it is power without love is abusive and love without power is anemic. 00:20:47.131 --> 00:20:59.591 And what I see is that power without love is abusive, and love without power invites abuse. 00:21:00.471 --> 00:21:02.211 Yeah, I understand. 00:21:03.331 --> 00:21:09.471 Can you give me an example? Earlier you mentioned, for instance, 00:21:10.131 --> 00:21:14.731 water management as early examples that you looked at. 00:21:14.731 --> 00:21:21.371 So can you reanalyze that example in these terms? 00:21:21.551 --> 00:21:25.731 How does that work along these dimensions of power and love? 00:21:28.651 --> 00:21:37.151 So I worked a lot on both domestic water supplies in villages and urban areas as well as irrigation. 00:21:38.991 --> 00:21:48.071 And if there is, you could have the rules of tailenders and people near the source of water. 00:21:48.471 --> 00:21:52.751 And the conflict is always between those who are close to the water and those 00:21:52.751 --> 00:21:54.031 who are further away, right? 00:21:54.111 --> 00:21:59.531 Because those who are close to the source use up more or can control whether the tap is on or not. 00:22:00.411 --> 00:22:05.031 Now, you can have all the rules about it, right? But if there's ill will, 00:22:05.271 --> 00:22:08.531 if there are no other connections, social connections, 00:22:08.691 --> 00:22:12.191 social capital or trust between 00:22:12.191 --> 00:22:15.051 those groups nothing is going to happen you're just 00:22:15.051 --> 00:22:20.851 going to fight forever so that good will that comes in comes in through mutual 00:22:20.851 --> 00:22:28.731 relations in some other realm that then provides the foundation for reciprocity 00:22:28.731 --> 00:22:33.431 and trust if the only relationship is through the through water. 00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:40.360 It's very difficult to hold when that resource becomes even more scarce. 00:22:41.900 --> 00:22:49.120 Right? So as resources get scarce, the fights get harsher and collaboration 00:22:49.120 --> 00:22:50.540 becomes a distant dream. 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:56.160 And whoever is the strongest, whoever has the most money, whoever is going to 00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:58.060 use the most muscle and power wins. 00:22:58.860 --> 00:23:04.600 It becomes a winner and loser framework and collaboration is a horizontal framework 00:23:04.600 --> 00:23:07.360 or needs to be a horizontal framework for it to last. 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:12.720 So you're saying in order to build collaboration, 00:23:13.120 --> 00:23:17.860 you first have to define, let's say, a neutral playground where there are no 00:23:17.860 --> 00:23:24.640 resources at stake to build trust from which you can then again return to the 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:26.480 situation where there is something at stake. 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:29.140 Exactly, exactly, exactly. 00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:34.440 And the easiest way to think about this is to look at a family or a couple, right? 00:23:34.520 --> 00:23:39.440 Every family goes through ups and downs. And what is it that helps you survive? 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:47.480 It's that reciprocity and trust and respect that can help you through. 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:50.440 Without that it's not possible to solve 00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:53.240 problems as they arise and problems are going 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:57.600 to be going to consistently arise but now 00:23:57.600 --> 00:24:00.460 in case of the water management that that 00:24:00.460 --> 00:24:04.000 that you mentioned earlier did you also 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:08.800 look at certain interventions and how well they would work in building trust 00:24:08.800 --> 00:24:14.060 or did you analyze this from an outside perspective and did you see examples 00:24:14.060 --> 00:24:17.980 where it worked because Because people build troughs in this neutral ground 00:24:17.980 --> 00:24:23.240 and other examples where that didn't happen. I mean, how did you come to that insight? 00:24:23.540 --> 00:24:26.980 I mean, there are different examples. One, there's a vast literature on irrigation. 00:24:27.380 --> 00:24:31.640 There's a lot of published literature. There are four villages that I worked 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:36.680 in very deeply, actually in Timor. And... 00:24:38.472 --> 00:24:44.092 Which was very dry and drinking water, clean drinking water was a huge problem. 00:24:44.192 --> 00:24:49.212 And I spent about three years visiting these communities with the research team 00:24:49.212 --> 00:24:52.212 and there were interventions, et cetera. 00:24:53.052 --> 00:25:01.232 Where did it work the best? It worked the best where men started supporting 00:25:01.232 --> 00:25:04.692 the women because drinking water or carrying water, 00:25:04.792 --> 00:25:08.952 fetching water is primarily a women's job all around the world, right? 00:25:09.252 --> 00:25:18.392 So where the male leaders and the spouses wanted to support this effort. 00:25:20.472 --> 00:25:30.572 There it worked. But if the men were not supportive of this effort, it did not work. 00:25:30.912 --> 00:25:34.292 We went through the same motions, the same processes, 00:25:34.292 --> 00:25:37.672 the same meetings they created men's 00:25:37.672 --> 00:25:40.772 groups women's groups and talked to the village leader and there 00:25:40.772 --> 00:25:47.792 would be a facilitator who would go out etc etc it did not last but then was 00:25:47.792 --> 00:25:54.812 that because of individuals who would be disruptive of the process or of a social 00:25:54.812 --> 00:25:58.612 factor of how the group overall was organized? 00:25:59.292 --> 00:26:03.212 No, I think the group organizations were very similar, right? 00:26:03.292 --> 00:26:05.872 Because after a while, you learn what's needed. 00:26:06.092 --> 00:26:08.292 It was this underlying idea. 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:20.720 Animosity or lethargy that led to systems not working? 00:26:21.940 --> 00:26:27.200 It's neglect, right? Because again, you have limited time, attention, and money. 00:26:27.320 --> 00:26:33.280 If they don't go into solving the water problem that women are facing, 00:26:33.560 --> 00:26:34.660 it's not going to happen. 00:26:35.280 --> 00:26:41.500 So it's, does it become a priority problem? because men also see it as a problem 00:26:41.500 --> 00:26:45.880 and are willing to put their resources and work with women to support it. 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:47.360 That's what made a difference. 00:26:48.600 --> 00:26:55.000 Okay. But now, also Bhavani observed this in the chat. 00:26:55.240 --> 00:27:01.500 So now we understand a little bit the sort of personal level of collaboration 00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:04.460 and these dimensions of power and love. 00:27:04.460 --> 00:27:11.160 But earlier you also said that you see this cut through different levels of 00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:14.280 organization, also the institutions of even two countries. 00:27:14.840 --> 00:27:20.660 So how should I imagine power we can imagine also at the level of countries, 00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:25.580 but how would love in that sense generalize? 00:27:25.900 --> 00:27:32.200 Let me talk a minute about power, because I think power also is not a unitary 00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:34.780 phenomenon. It has many different forms and shapes. 00:27:35.860 --> 00:27:37.580 And the one that we're most familiar 00:27:37.580 --> 00:27:42.260 with is power over, even though it's supposed to be collaborative. 00:27:44.840 --> 00:27:48.220 Organizations have unequal, countries have unequal power. 00:27:48.460 --> 00:27:56.540 Whether you look at the UN, there is a body that can veto, has veto power, right? 00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:04.260 So it's not completely flat. So it's power, it's whether the power is equally 00:28:04.260 --> 00:28:06.240 distributed or not, that's one. 00:28:06.560 --> 00:28:13.500 And then within that body, if there is the love, peace comes in, 00:28:13.600 --> 00:28:20.020 if there is, it's based on values of mutuality, respect, 00:28:20.320 --> 00:28:22.700 dignity, and kindness, caring. 00:28:22.700 --> 00:28:27.380 And what I see is that when that's not present. 00:28:30.667 --> 00:28:39.487 At the first sign of trouble, when conflicts arise, it takes a long time to solve it. 00:28:41.727 --> 00:28:46.487 Or people get squashed within and are not treated with respect. 00:28:46.487 --> 00:28:51.747 So, again, taking the most obvious recent examples, 00:28:52.487 --> 00:29:00.927 most companies have wonderful slogans about mutuality, respect, 00:29:01.327 --> 00:29:05.207 worth, human potential, etc. Right. 00:29:05.427 --> 00:29:12.047 And yet the Me Too movement emerged out of these companies and more and more 00:29:12.047 --> 00:29:16.547 is emerging, including from sports organizations where girls were abused, 00:29:16.707 --> 00:29:17.867 little girls were abused. 00:29:18.767 --> 00:29:23.187 That's not mutuality or love or reciprocity. 00:29:23.187 --> 00:29:26.327 So we think it's 00:29:26.327 --> 00:29:30.627 power with it's a collaborative process but 00:29:30.627 --> 00:29:34.167 usually it's power over and where 00:29:34.167 --> 00:29:43.847 there is power over there is very little scope for kindness dignity respect 00:29:43.847 --> 00:29:53.707 and caring compassion which is together is the package of love but which country in the world, 00:29:53.887 --> 00:30:00.887 do you believe right now gets the closest to that ideal at this point in time? 00:30:02.107 --> 00:30:07.667 I think that's very difficult. I think if you think in terms of human satisfaction, 00:30:08.047 --> 00:30:11.387 happiness, etc., you know the answer. 00:30:11.487 --> 00:30:15.487 It's always the Nordic. It's the Nordic block that emerges at the top. 00:30:16.027 --> 00:30:18.907 But in terms of. 00:30:20.621 --> 00:30:27.481 Violence against women, I was very surprised to see that if you just look at 00:30:27.481 --> 00:30:29.461 that indicator, even the Nordic 00:30:29.461 --> 00:30:34.521 countries don't do well in the human development, in the social norms. 00:30:34.661 --> 00:30:43.481 I was shocked to see that the level of violence in India and Sweden was almost the same against women. 00:30:44.281 --> 00:30:48.841 Right. Yeah, those statistics are not encouraging. You're absolutely right. Right. 00:30:49.341 --> 00:30:54.121 But now, on the other hand, decisions at the level of countries are again made 00:30:54.121 --> 00:30:57.041 by individuals. These individuals act in groups. 00:30:57.621 --> 00:31:02.541 These groups are not necessarily that large, but these are groups of power. 00:31:03.481 --> 00:31:07.021 Right. So in that sense, would that be the difference? 00:31:07.081 --> 00:31:10.301 Because now we can look at the situation you described earlier for the water 00:31:10.301 --> 00:31:13.401 management, where you said, well, in the social structure, what's the saying? 00:31:14.001 --> 00:31:16.521 So maybe this can be individual disruptors. 00:31:17.361 --> 00:31:21.221 So also, do you believe at the level of countries interacting and collaborating, 00:31:21.581 --> 00:31:28.661 it will depend on individuals in these groups that exert the power and it will make the difference? 00:31:30.041 --> 00:31:33.381 I think it depends. It always depends on individuals eventually. 00:31:33.801 --> 00:31:43.501 But it also depends on the individual and the country motivations. 00:31:43.501 --> 00:31:53.121 I think you're going to see a sea of change as we change the conversation away from... 00:31:57.882 --> 00:32:01.022 How do I call it, one-manship, right? 00:32:01.142 --> 00:32:06.762 And the reality is that the world is dominated by male leaders, right? 00:32:06.902 --> 00:32:13.242 And the COVID example shows that a lot of the countries led by female leaders 00:32:13.242 --> 00:32:17.022 actually did a lot better than those by male leaders. 00:32:17.902 --> 00:32:22.882 That doesn't mean that men can't change or male leadership cannot change. 00:32:23.062 --> 00:32:28.702 I think it can, but it needs to change again in terms of integrating these values 00:32:28.702 --> 00:32:35.422 of respect and dignity for all rather than the goal of achieving my goal, 00:32:36.182 --> 00:32:39.662 being obsessed by achieving my goal at all costs. 00:32:39.862 --> 00:32:45.062 I think that's the problem, which is why some of these, 00:32:45.802 --> 00:32:52.262 whether it's the World Trade Association or large organizations get paralyzed 00:32:52.262 --> 00:33:01.522 because it's hard to come to a decision to collaborate when interests and sizes are so different. 00:33:03.222 --> 00:33:11.222 Right. But so this is then in some sense also a tragedy of this gender or sex-related 00:33:11.222 --> 00:33:13.722 dimensions of power and love, 00:33:13.902 --> 00:33:15.982 because I understand, of course, 00:33:15.982 --> 00:33:21.382 that you're saying, look, ideally they're linked in your infinity cycle. 00:33:22.262 --> 00:33:30.522 But maybe it is not really feasible. Maybe they are by necessity incompatible. 00:33:31.242 --> 00:33:35.602 Because take the example of the man you just mentioned who discovered that actually 00:33:35.602 --> 00:33:36.862 he was always competing. 00:33:38.082 --> 00:33:43.342 But in some sense, for that person to survive in the competitive environment, 00:33:43.742 --> 00:33:51.042 he will have been completely conditioned for his whole career to hide his internal state. 00:33:52.291 --> 00:33:57.531 To not reveal anything, because otherwise you will never, never succeed, right? 00:33:57.611 --> 00:34:02.051 So that in some sense, you have to deny a part of yourself in order to survive 00:34:02.051 --> 00:34:10.271 in that specific environment, which will preclude you ever returning to the other side of love. 00:34:10.871 --> 00:34:14.791 And the same might hold if you start at the end of love, right? 00:34:14.871 --> 00:34:19.951 So do you see it's possible to bring these together in some balanced form? 00:34:19.951 --> 00:34:24.051 Or would you say, and therefore men and women have to actually work together 00:34:24.051 --> 00:34:27.511 because they bring these different perspectives to the table? 00:34:28.771 --> 00:34:35.491 I think unless we bring as societies and as a world community power and love 00:34:35.491 --> 00:34:37.951 together, we're going to become extinct. 00:34:40.511 --> 00:34:47.551 We already see that in the excesses of climate change. We see that in the excesses 00:34:47.551 --> 00:34:53.171 of billionaires when there is mass poverty around the world, including in the US. 00:34:53.651 --> 00:34:58.211 So I don't think we can survive without power and love coming together. 00:34:58.571 --> 00:35:02.931 I think the second thing is the operative word that you used is this is just 00:35:02.931 --> 00:35:09.511 conditioning, right? No child, no baby is born grabbing for power. 00:35:10.891 --> 00:35:13.151 It's total conditioning, and 00:35:13.151 --> 00:35:18.551 that's why I interviewed 7-year-old boys and 8-year-old boys and girls. 00:35:19.051 --> 00:35:24.651 If this gender training starts very, very early, and so as long as boys are 00:35:24.651 --> 00:35:30.071 being taught not to be emotional, we're going to get unidimensional men. 00:35:31.731 --> 00:35:37.691 And as men don't change, women are leaving men and choosing to live on their own. 00:35:38.491 --> 00:35:44.151 I don't think these are recipes for a happy or fulfilling or thriving world 00:35:44.151 --> 00:35:48.951 in which the environment is cared for and in which we care for each other. 00:35:49.051 --> 00:35:50.511 So I don't think it's a choice. 00:35:50.711 --> 00:35:54.651 I think it's an absolute necessity for survival. 00:35:55.191 --> 00:35:58.831 Okay. We as human beings have to change. Mm-hmm. 00:36:00.976 --> 00:36:04.896 And sorry, the last thing, may I just add one other thing, Paul? 00:36:05.076 --> 00:36:10.476 And I don't think it's not, I think it's absolutely the case that men and women 00:36:10.476 --> 00:36:15.896 have to, women have to be given more opportunity and space to come together 00:36:15.896 --> 00:36:17.796 with men in decision making. 00:36:18.276 --> 00:36:25.516 And both men and women, but particularly men, have to both be given the space 00:36:25.516 --> 00:36:28.396 and integrate love and power. 00:36:28.396 --> 00:36:32.656 Because love and power is basically the masculine and feminine archetypes in 00:36:32.656 --> 00:36:42.356 which every human being has that, whether you're trans or whether you're gender fluid or LGBTQ or A+. 00:36:42.356 --> 00:36:44.456 We all have it. 00:36:44.476 --> 00:36:49.476 And it's socialization and cultural conditioning and expectations that have 00:36:49.476 --> 00:36:52.856 created this bifurcation that is harming both women and men. 00:36:53.736 --> 00:37:00.416 Right. Now, as a challenge, you could also argue that there's a trade-off here, 00:37:00.496 --> 00:37:07.076 that if we want to live our full identity and our full potential, 00:37:07.436 --> 00:37:12.816 it would preclude any form of large-scale collaboration because collaboration 00:37:12.816 --> 00:37:15.236 also always implies a compromise. 00:37:15.236 --> 00:37:17.556 It always implies a trade-off. 00:37:17.676 --> 00:37:24.176 Like, I cannot pursue all my immediate hedonistic drives and instincts because 00:37:24.176 --> 00:37:27.016 there's not a time constant at play. 00:37:27.296 --> 00:37:31.656 There are other drives at play from others, and I have to compromise. 00:37:31.816 --> 00:37:33.856 So there might be a trade-off here. 00:37:34.096 --> 00:37:36.256 While you seem to say it adds. 00:37:38.476 --> 00:37:42.236 But how can you be sure about that? Why is there no trade-off here? 00:37:42.236 --> 00:37:48.916 I don't think there's a trade-off in terms of human happiness and survival, 00:37:49.116 --> 00:37:51.136 because I think we will make different choices. 00:37:51.656 --> 00:37:58.036 And I think what's really being called for is both for men and women, 00:37:58.236 --> 00:38:03.916 a more feminine leadership, a more caring leadership, a more caring person for which, 00:38:05.048 --> 00:38:10.528 You don't get hurt and others don't get hurt. I think it's a different lens to look at. 00:38:10.648 --> 00:38:16.968 And that as long as we look at a lens of more, more, more, we're going to be 00:38:16.968 --> 00:38:21.128 back to the same manipulation without changing outcomes. 00:38:22.508 --> 00:38:26.788 Okay. But now, it's okay. We have to come together. 00:38:27.948 --> 00:38:32.708 Humans are facing massive challenges, right? This we don't need to discuss. us. 00:38:33.348 --> 00:38:37.788 So now we have to act. And you are also proposing we have to bring love and 00:38:37.788 --> 00:38:43.448 power together by also more parity in how power and love is distributed. 00:38:43.908 --> 00:38:47.888 So from an operational perspective, that would then suggest, 00:38:48.128 --> 00:38:50.408 okay, we have to redesign the United Nations. 00:38:50.468 --> 00:38:55.888 We need, let's say, a body, an international body that in this more even-handed 00:38:55.888 --> 00:39:02.328 way structures collaboration on a global level based on these values of love 00:39:02.328 --> 00:39:04.988 and power. Is that what you would be advocating? 00:39:05.368 --> 00:39:14.388 Or having worked at the World Bank and seen the cost of reorganizations. 00:39:15.728 --> 00:39:25.068 Constant reorganizations, I would say, yes, it's important to have large organizations 00:39:25.068 --> 00:39:30.388 reflecting these values, which they currently don't. 00:39:30.388 --> 00:39:34.488 And I think that's not the only way to bring about change. 00:39:34.768 --> 00:39:37.488 I think we need new organizations that may 00:39:37.488 --> 00:39:49.248 be more networks that provide the pressure to change from the bottom up so that 00:39:49.248 --> 00:39:57.108 the top doesn't function disconnected from the populations. And you're beginning to see it. 00:39:57.188 --> 00:40:01.648 But I think that's what needs to happen is that I think a lot of change can 00:40:01.648 --> 00:40:04.908 happen within organizations and where it's not possible. 00:40:05.148 --> 00:40:10.868 I think you need counter forces to make that happen, to push for that. 00:40:10.868 --> 00:40:13.568 I mean, the Black Lives Matter movement in the U.S. 00:40:13.588 --> 00:40:19.248 Is a wonderful example of that, of how change is happening, not because the 00:40:19.248 --> 00:40:25.408 government thought of it or some large organization thought about it, but endless change. 00:40:26.384 --> 00:40:33.624 Organization, endless networking and coordinated action, collaboration across 00:40:33.624 --> 00:40:38.224 time and place in the US, but not with clear leadership. 00:40:38.424 --> 00:40:42.764 The leadership is diffuse, right? So which is a completely different way of 00:40:42.764 --> 00:40:48.944 thinking of a hierarchical organization, which one usually man at the top. 00:40:49.264 --> 00:40:55.844 Mm-hmm. But now this is a bottom-up movement, right? 00:40:57.464 --> 00:41:03.844 Grassroots, which will require also a lot of communication and also education, if you want. 00:41:04.204 --> 00:41:11.424 Because now, indeed, you want to respect the volition and the agency of every 00:41:11.424 --> 00:41:16.284 individual in that movement in order to create this groundswell for change. 00:41:16.424 --> 00:41:20.064 This is a little bit what I hear you say. Is that correct? I think that's one 00:41:20.064 --> 00:41:25.784 way and one effective way because the existing organizations, 00:41:26.024 --> 00:41:33.804 including governments, are just not listening and are actually excluding these 00:41:33.804 --> 00:41:37.064 voices because of historical reasons. 00:41:37.344 --> 00:41:42.024 So that needs to be redesigned so that individuals don't have to fight their 00:41:42.024 --> 00:41:48.344 lives, fight for basic rights, basic access to education or employment or housing. Thank you. 00:41:48.763 --> 00:41:52.603 Right. So then, do we have enough time for that? 00:41:52.723 --> 00:41:57.683 If we look at the crises that we're facing, and we would follow a bottom-up 00:41:57.683 --> 00:42:01.023 approach, so this would be challenge number one. 00:42:01.123 --> 00:42:05.483 Do we have enough time? Well, it's not either or, right? 00:42:05.583 --> 00:42:10.323 You have to have these people sit in the movements, but the large organizations 00:42:10.323 --> 00:42:15.123 that are sitting on the power and money have to respond and have to change. 00:42:15.443 --> 00:42:20.523 And I think the most important way of bringing about change is one, 00:42:20.583 --> 00:42:27.823 these structural changes, but, and combining that with changing people's hearts and minds. 00:42:29.043 --> 00:42:34.103 So I've been watching some of the environmental movements in Canada and the 00:42:34.103 --> 00:42:37.563 U.S., and that's what a lot of the activists have also come to, 00:42:37.683 --> 00:42:43.923 is that you can fight for years, but some of these, you need the demonstrations to create pressure, 00:42:44.143 --> 00:42:50.163 but at the end of the day, you have to deal with the heads, the CEOs of organizations 00:42:50.163 --> 00:42:52.223 that are also human beings. 00:42:52.223 --> 00:42:59.323 And if you can come to it with mutual respect while holding firm to outcomes, miracles happen. 00:43:00.143 --> 00:43:05.903 And I don't think it's going to happen on a large scale because the resources 00:43:05.903 --> 00:43:13.943 are, what's the word, sit in large organizations. 00:43:14.223 --> 00:43:18.803 Unless these large organizations change, it's going to be an endless fight. 00:43:18.803 --> 00:43:25.183 But then, isn't there now an elephant in the room again, which is called power? 00:43:25.483 --> 00:43:31.843 Because in some sense, the bottom-up organization tries to exert power over 00:43:31.843 --> 00:43:36.103 the big organizations in order to get them to the table. 00:43:37.063 --> 00:43:42.763 Yep. Right? Is that not the dynamic here? Absolutely. Absolutely. 00:43:43.443 --> 00:43:48.243 So, it's a fight for shared power, right? That's what basically we're saying. 00:43:48.803 --> 00:43:53.923 So it comes back to power and love. Love without power invites abuse. 00:43:54.883 --> 00:43:58.463 So you've got to have power, otherwise you're not heard. 00:43:58.723 --> 00:44:02.843 That's the way the world is structured as a hierarchy, with the people at the 00:44:02.843 --> 00:44:04.203 bottom not having power. 00:44:04.443 --> 00:44:10.523 And so we're asserting power through the power of numbers. Yeah, exactly. 00:44:11.423 --> 00:44:15.223 That's the only thing. It's voice and it's the power of numbers, 00:44:15.223 --> 00:44:18.263 which is why from time immemorial, 00:44:18.283 --> 00:44:26.523 it's people's movements that have thrown over governments and kings and changed the world. 00:44:26.563 --> 00:44:29.183 And that's how it's going to be. But does it have to be that way? 00:44:29.603 --> 00:44:34.003 If the large organizations, if governments really are for people, 00:44:34.083 --> 00:44:35.783 which they're supposed to be. 00:44:37.088 --> 00:44:44.068 Then they would be more reflective and give easier access to voices that are 00:44:44.068 --> 00:44:47.968 different from the direction that they're going. Okay. 00:44:48.668 --> 00:44:54.188 But these are values, right? Absolutely. These values have to drive a movement. 00:44:54.588 --> 00:44:59.988 But then I could imagine that the onslaught of disinformation, 00:45:01.008 --> 00:45:07.288 Disinformation is a massive threat to building trust among all these individual 00:45:07.288 --> 00:45:09.848 agents to build up a movement. 00:45:10.228 --> 00:45:15.048 So do you see this also as a liability, as a risk for this approach, 00:45:15.288 --> 00:45:17.588 or do you think that that's not really a relevant factor? 00:45:18.168 --> 00:45:23.868 I don't understand what you mean by this flood of information. Disinformation. 00:45:25.008 --> 00:45:30.848 Disinformation. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The disinformation is acting against love. 00:45:31.448 --> 00:45:35.208 Absolutely. Acts in favor of fragmented power. 00:45:35.668 --> 00:45:42.008 Exactly. So this, to me, would appear one of your biggest threats right now. 00:45:42.308 --> 00:45:49.208 Exactly. Disinformation is an instrument of control and power, 00:45:49.368 --> 00:45:52.608 of asymmetrical power. Yeah. 00:45:53.308 --> 00:45:57.388 How are you dealing with it? Yeah, absolutely. How do you deal with it? Yeah. 00:45:59.268 --> 00:46:07.608 The only way to deal with it is, I mean, through every source of power that you have, through laws, 00:46:08.368 --> 00:46:16.768 through the courts, through coming together and having alternative sources of information. 00:46:16.768 --> 00:46:21.368 I mean, this is what we're seeing in the world right now is the attempts to 00:46:21.368 --> 00:46:31.668 retain, contain, and deny people power by these huge information and disinformation battles. 00:46:31.868 --> 00:46:36.608 And that's, yeah, that's exactly what's going on right now. And in fact, there's love. 00:46:37.828 --> 00:46:44.648 It's all about power, power, power, power over, right? So in that cacophony 00:46:44.648 --> 00:46:47.948 of voices, who is your ambassador right now? 00:46:49.188 --> 00:46:50.868 Old Facebook, old Twitter. 00:46:52.828 --> 00:46:57.508 Who's my ambassador? Again, I don't... For this philosophy, for this proposal, right? 00:46:59.414 --> 00:47:05.734 Well, I think it's all the people who believe in a better world and action to 00:47:05.734 --> 00:47:10.054 make it a more equitable, fairer world in which the planet survives. 00:47:11.374 --> 00:47:20.134 Right. Okay. So now, we have discussed a little bit the framework that you're 00:47:20.134 --> 00:47:24.934 proposing and also how it is grounded in examples. 00:47:26.234 --> 00:47:33.834 But now we also went through a unique and devastating experience and also many 00:47:33.834 --> 00:47:37.934 countries are still going through this COVID-19 crisis, in particular also India. 00:47:38.794 --> 00:47:44.214 Has this taught us anything fundamental, anything new about collaboration, 00:47:44.734 --> 00:47:50.194 how humans collaborate or how humans fail to collaborate? Is there a new insight? 00:47:50.814 --> 00:48:01.614 I think the new insight is very clear. that desire for total control destroys. 00:48:03.834 --> 00:48:09.934 Unaccountable governments, governments and leaders that are bullies, 00:48:10.974 --> 00:48:17.174 that are the furthest from anything that could be called feminine leadership, 00:48:18.294 --> 00:48:21.734 are the most dangerous creatures in the world right now. 00:48:21.734 --> 00:48:32.074 And so unadulterated grab for power against citizens is deadly. 00:48:34.154 --> 00:48:45.094 Deadly in a very literal sense, which uses all the fascist techniques of disinformation, 00:48:45.094 --> 00:48:52.094 turning people against each other lying controlling the media, 00:48:54.014 --> 00:49:03.994 jailing people or threatening threatening to jail people or misuse of laws we've 00:49:03.994 --> 00:49:06.334 seen this play around the world, 00:49:07.694 --> 00:49:15.734 so then given that are you still hopeful that humanity will be able to realize 00:49:15.734 --> 00:49:17.914 sustainable large-scale collaboration? 00:49:19.654 --> 00:49:26.914 I think it will happen when we see ourselves on the edge of extinction, 00:49:28.054 --> 00:49:35.654 which is including flooding, whether it's in Germany or mudslides or hurricanes 00:49:35.654 --> 00:49:40.194 or 120 degrees and 40 degrees temperatures in the U.S. 00:49:40.194 --> 00:49:47.334 And the West. Seattle has had the highest temperature that it's had over a century um and. 00:49:49.008 --> 00:49:59.188 And, and keep, it has to hit us. It's a tragedy, but it has to hit us close to home to wake up. 00:49:59.208 --> 00:50:01.648 But even then we may not wake up. 00:50:01.968 --> 00:50:10.948 Because if leaders continue to lie and deny that human actions and human greed 00:50:10.948 --> 00:50:14.908 is creating these, this turmoil in the world, 00:50:14.928 --> 00:50:17.328 and melting of the ice, etc. 00:50:17.328 --> 00:50:22.048 I think the planet as we know it may go extinct. 00:50:23.368 --> 00:50:28.668 Right. But then with the approach that you're advocating, 00:50:29.688 --> 00:50:35.548 there's a certain amount of time required to build the counter-movement and 00:50:35.548 --> 00:50:39.408 to try to recover what can still be recovered. 00:50:39.408 --> 00:50:47.648 So how much time do you think you will need minimally to regain a sense of stability 00:50:47.648 --> 00:50:50.488 in this world, to counter the current threats? 00:50:50.608 --> 00:50:53.188 You're asking me about how to save the planet? 00:50:53.608 --> 00:50:57.028 Yeah, in your program, how much time do you need? 00:50:57.068 --> 00:51:00.048 Because the point is, if you're going to tell me we're going to need 100 years 00:51:00.048 --> 00:51:04.988 to mobilize enough people, okay, then this is not going to be operational and 00:51:04.988 --> 00:51:08.448 we have to look at compromises. If you tell me I need 10 years, 00:51:08.588 --> 00:51:10.468 we can say, okay, where do we start? 00:51:11.568 --> 00:51:15.808 So in that sense, it is not pure academic. It's a relevant operational question. 00:51:17.088 --> 00:51:22.288 I think there are lots of pockets of resistance and hope. 00:51:22.888 --> 00:51:29.948 I think it will take billions of dollars to connect and amplify these voices. 00:51:31.308 --> 00:51:35.728 I think the fact that people are waking up to the climate, I mean, 00:51:35.788 --> 00:51:41.368 the twin crisis, there's a pandemic going on, there's a racial inequity crisis, 00:51:41.488 --> 00:51:43.628 and there's a climate crisis. 00:51:43.908 --> 00:51:47.908 There is a gender, racial, basically an inequity income crisis, 00:51:47.948 --> 00:51:53.648 and there's a climate crisis. And the underlying factors of how we deal with 00:51:53.648 --> 00:51:57.648 it is very similar, right? 00:51:57.728 --> 00:52:07.368 It's human excess, human overconsumption, and governments that try and hide 00:52:07.368 --> 00:52:08.808 the truth from its citizens. 00:52:09.688 --> 00:52:14.408 Whether it's in china whether it's in the u.s whether it's in india whether 00:52:14.408 --> 00:52:21.568 it's in turkey or brazil or anywhere else this is what needs to change and if 00:52:21.568 --> 00:52:27.048 if the if we continue in terms of um. 00:52:29.860 --> 00:52:42.480 This imbalanced power, I think money resources play a huge role in shifting 00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:49.180 that power balance and shifting the voices while this grassroots movement continues to thrive. 00:52:49.180 --> 00:52:54.660 I think it will take another 20 years before we see a big shift. 00:52:54.840 --> 00:53:03.900 And the shift can be facilitated by providing resources to amplify the voices 00:53:03.900 --> 00:53:08.760 of research, of science, of community building, 00:53:09.100 --> 00:53:12.480 of reaching across differences, 00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:16.640 whether it's gender or race or political ideology. 00:53:16.640 --> 00:53:19.240 I think we can see a sea change. 00:53:20.200 --> 00:53:26.240 But now if it's 20 years, then in that time frame, we also have to deploy a 00:53:26.240 --> 00:53:28.640 massive educational effort, 00:53:29.320 --> 00:53:36.360 because these dictators, the power mongers of the world, 00:53:37.060 --> 00:53:42.320 also manage to grab power because people are influenced by simple messages, 00:53:42.600 --> 00:53:49.020 by simple conspiracy theories, because the uncertainty of reality and the uncertainty 00:53:49.020 --> 00:53:52.340 of the future is too complex and too threatening to comprehend. 00:53:52.640 --> 00:53:55.160 In order to manage that, we need education. 00:53:55.780 --> 00:54:03.580 So how are we going to educate these future generations in your philosophy of 00:54:03.580 --> 00:54:08.400 power and love to enable collaboration? Yeah. 00:54:08.520 --> 00:54:13.900 I think education, a massive shift in education policies and content, 00:54:14.200 --> 00:54:22.680 because right now, for example, in the US, there's a fight going on on race theory, right? 00:54:22.740 --> 00:54:25.740 Critical race theory is being banned. Right. 00:54:26.763 --> 00:54:34.783 And why is it banned? Because in most places, the lies have been bought by so 00:54:34.783 --> 00:54:38.723 many people who then comes back to feeling threatened, etc. 00:54:39.283 --> 00:54:46.003 So I think everywhere, and we looked into education, I mean, 00:54:46.043 --> 00:54:52.203 in this in particular case, in terms of gender and how boys learn how to be men in schools. 00:54:52.203 --> 00:54:58.323 Schools, and schools are deepening the stereotypes of what it means to be a 00:54:58.323 --> 00:55:00.723 boy and a girl. So I think you're absolutely right. 00:55:00.883 --> 00:55:09.843 It needs a massive re-education of people everywhere in the world so that we 00:55:09.843 --> 00:55:12.083 will make different choices and think differently. 00:55:12.643 --> 00:55:17.283 And I think there's actually quite a bit of research showing that when children 00:55:17.283 --> 00:55:20.103 get different messages in schools, 00:55:20.603 --> 00:55:28.123 they often, their interests and their approaches impact the decision their parents make. 00:55:29.403 --> 00:55:33.083 Because it comes from love, they care about the kids. 00:55:33.203 --> 00:55:39.463 It's very interesting, men won't listen to their wives, but they listen to their daughters and sons. 00:55:39.903 --> 00:55:47.923 Right. I think you've got to use every channel to change minds and to change hearts. 00:55:48.963 --> 00:55:55.563 But you could also argue that this ability to operate in a collaborative fashion 00:55:55.563 --> 00:55:59.523 along the lines of love and power is maybe something also innate, 00:55:59.903 --> 00:56:05.523 something that also biology just equips us with, but it's culture and education 00:56:05.523 --> 00:56:09.323 that sort of distorts that. about it. Is that how you look at it? 00:56:09.623 --> 00:56:17.403 I agree completely because I think the evidence from evolutionary biology, 00:56:17.683 --> 00:56:22.063 etc., is also coming out more and more that we're actually wired to collaborate, 00:56:22.623 --> 00:56:26.783 and we are wired to be altruistic and not just to compete. 00:56:27.823 --> 00:56:30.883 Yes, so there's been massive miseducation, 00:56:31.895 --> 00:56:38.655 Right. So maybe the education effort should focus on less education in some sense. 00:56:39.475 --> 00:56:44.615 Yeah, the underlying premises of education are pretty messed up. Right. 00:56:44.815 --> 00:56:49.735 Because education was a form of, the most important role of formal education 00:56:49.735 --> 00:56:56.415 is to perpetuate the culture of a society, to reproduce society. 00:56:56.415 --> 00:57:01.695 So each generation, there are some changes in the external world, 00:57:01.775 --> 00:57:09.995 of course, but it's re-perpetuating these false notions of who we are as human beings. 00:57:10.355 --> 00:57:16.675 Well, don't forget that the basic model of the classroom goes back to Ferdinand 00:57:16.675 --> 00:57:20.475 the Great, and it is actually one of an authority, right? 00:57:20.535 --> 00:57:23.955 There's the authority of the teacher who controls the class. 00:57:23.955 --> 00:57:30.555 It's an upfront definition of an asymmetric power relationship in which education is defined. 00:57:30.815 --> 00:57:33.855 It already starts there. And there will be an easy one to change. 00:57:34.115 --> 00:57:39.735 But now, in some sense, what you're proposing as an ideological agenda. 00:57:40.135 --> 00:57:47.395 A few decades ago, might have been captured within a religious context or within 00:57:47.395 --> 00:57:49.475 a political ideological context. 00:57:49.475 --> 00:57:55.255 But now, in our increasingly more secular society, there are voids. 00:57:55.395 --> 00:57:59.795 So do you see that what you're proposing is filling such a void that maybe 50 00:57:59.795 --> 00:58:04.875 years ago would have been filled by people's religious commitment? 00:58:05.055 --> 00:58:09.255 But since these are gone, you have to again refill that space. 00:58:09.975 --> 00:58:14.455 I hadn't thought about it in that way, because I think there's a big difference 00:58:14.455 --> 00:58:19.095 in the Western world and in Asia, for example, in Africa. 00:58:19.475 --> 00:58:26.875 If you look at the numbers from surveys on religiosity in India, it's about 85 percent. 00:58:27.075 --> 00:58:30.055 So is the U.S. So I think it varies a lot. 00:58:30.195 --> 00:58:35.995 But in Europe, for sure, that I think there is a decline in church attendance, 00:58:36.255 --> 00:58:37.875 huge decline in church attendance. 00:58:39.115 --> 00:58:41.275 And so, yes, it is this... 00:58:43.256 --> 00:58:51.036 You know, how do you fill the void? Exactly. And that void is this huge human 00:58:51.036 --> 00:58:53.336 longing for connection. 00:58:53.576 --> 00:58:57.716 We are wired for connection with other human beings. 00:58:57.996 --> 00:59:04.976 And the human longing is to be appreciated and to matter and to be, 00:59:04.976 --> 00:59:07.196 again, to be valued as a human being. 00:59:07.196 --> 00:59:11.576 And then when that's violated, that's what creates problems for children, 00:59:11.716 --> 00:59:13.516 for adults, for men, for women. 00:59:13.736 --> 00:59:21.136 So it comes back to very simple human longing to belong, to be appreciated, to matter. 00:59:23.016 --> 00:59:26.836 So that's where it's the virtuous life that also the classics, 00:59:27.036 --> 00:59:31.096 the philosophers, and the classic religions really were all about. 00:59:31.216 --> 00:59:34.196 What is the good life, right? And this is what you're reformulating. 00:59:34.196 --> 00:59:35.976 But then that's my last question. 00:59:36.096 --> 00:59:44.716 If you, by magical means, could change one thing in humans in order to help 00:59:44.716 --> 00:59:49.056 us achieve sustainable collaboration, what would this one thing be? 00:59:49.056 --> 00:59:54.436 I would fill every human being with love. 00:59:54.956 --> 01:00:00.416 Love for themselves so they feel loved and they feel they have supported by 01:00:00.416 --> 01:00:06.596 a hundred people and then let them go and do their thing in the world. 01:00:06.816 --> 01:00:13.516 It's this lack of love, lack of feeling appreciated and valued that destroys 01:00:13.516 --> 01:00:15.856 us as individuals and as a society. 01:00:17.056 --> 01:00:21.656 Very good Deepa Narayan thank you very much for this conversation my pleasure 01:00:21.656 --> 01:00:25.996 thank you hi you listened to one of our podcasts in the series on collaboration, 01:00:26.976 --> 01:00:31.776 produced by the Ernst Trumman Forum and the Conversion Science Network you can 01:00:31.776 --> 01:00:34.076 find more episodes on our website.