WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Paul Vesure and together with my colleague Jana Bettnard,

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we're speaking with Nina Agarwal-Hardin about collaboration in grassroots protest organizations.

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Nina is a political and partnership strategist with the Sunrise Movement and

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Know Your Nine and a freshman at Yale University.

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So welcome, this is Paul Vesure with my colleague Jana Bettnard for the Convergent

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Science Network podcast in collaboration with the Ernst Sturmband Forum,

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and today we're with Nina Agravall-Hardin. Welcome, Nina.

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Thank you. So, Nina,

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how we always start our discussions is just with the person we're speaking to,

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to give a short description about their trajectory that brought them where they

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are now in really the middle of a,

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complex collaborative process called the Sunrise Movement. one.

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And I would be happy to do that. So for anyone who is unfamiliar with Sunrise,

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the U.S.-based and youth-led movement and organization was mandated essentially

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to stop climate change and create millions of good jobs in the process.

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Sunrise is responsible partially for pushing ideas like the Green New Deal into

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the mainstream here in the United States.

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And currently is working on co-governing with the Biden administration as we

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sort of enter this era of climate action in America.

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As for my personal trajectory, my dad's family has a roots in rural northern

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India in Bihar, and my mom's parents have a home in rural Appalachia in East

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Tennessee, nestled in the Great Smoky Mountains.

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And both of these places growing up have been places that have been vulnerable

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to climate disaster and where I've seen challenges like chronic poverty and

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also social inequalities exacerbate the difficulty of recovering after a climate disaster strike.

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So that's sort of the...

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The way the climate crisis showed up for me growing up and when I found Sunrise,

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what excited me about the movement was that it was a collaboration between people

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from, you know, sort of frontline communities and people from, yeah,

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just very different organizing backgrounds as well.

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So people from, you know, fossil fuel, anti-fossil fuel infrastructure fights,

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people from divestment, campus divestment fights,

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people from financial sector divestment fights, people who had been,

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you know, working on lobbying and politics for a long time.

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And so the sort of combination of the regional diversity and the relative racial

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socioeconomic and social diversity as compared to other parts of the climate

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movement and then that diversity of experience is really what drew me to Sunrise.

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So with that, now you described a little bit the Sunrise Movement as a movement

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and how you discovered that movement,

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but you're also active in the Sunrise Movement as a political and partnership strategist, it says.

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So how did you end up in that role?

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Yeah, so I started out organizing locally with the Sunrise Movement in Ann Arbor,

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Michigan, which is where my parents and I are based and where I just graduated high school.

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And gradually, as this 2019 Global Climate Strike Movement, which was an international collaboration,

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got underway, way, I began to represent Sunrise in the National Coalition of

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Youth-Led Organizations that was working on planning and executing that strike

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mobilization at the national level in the United States.

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And I was asked to assume that role in part because I was a high schooler, in part because,

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I have, you know, strong roots both in the United States and internationally, nationally,

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and in part because I had been organizing with Sunrise for some time then and

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had a good sense of the movement's sort of core mission and how to advocate

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for that mission in this coalition space.

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And so I sat on that coalition representing Sunrise with a friend of mine,

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a colleague, for about a year.

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And when it became clear that mass in-person mobilization wasn't going to be

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possible for a while because of COVID-19, I sort of started to do other political

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and partnership work for the movement.

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And so particularly looking at our partnerships with Gen Z and high school-led

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organizations, and also looking at how we make our political communication accessible

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to that age group, that demographic.

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But if you speak of the Sunrise Movement, before we delve into the specifics

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of collaboration, what should we think?

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What's the scale of this organization? How is it really organized?

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Yeah. Sunrise has, I think, now over 500 of what we call hubs across the United States of America.

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And these hubs can range in membership.

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They can have anywhere from, you know, three members to 30 or 63 or even some

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have 300 members engaged. aged.

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So they really vary in terms of their size, but they organize under a common

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set of principles and often they're working together or working on a campaign

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that the national movement leadership.

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Has helped to design.

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So Sunrise, the organization, as we call it, is a set of national staff members

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who work full or part-time on setting up support resources and devising strategic

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campaigns for hubs to use as needed.

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And hubs are also encouraged to create

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their own strategic goals that are applicable in their local context.

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And they kind of can choose, you know, where to put their energies in that way.

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In terms of other work that the national organization does, as of late,

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we've done a lot of work with the Biden administration.

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Our executive director was on President

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Biden's task force for um climate policy

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unity and climate policy but um when when

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he was running in the lead up to the general election

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and really helped to craft some of that policy which was wonderful and so now

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we're sort of working on enacting that clear so okay so so so now how would

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you define also within this the sunrise move how would you define collaboration

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what is it and what is it good for.

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Um, well, you know, I remember I was at a Sunrise training a year and a half

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ago, and there was a module on power.

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And, you know, we had this classic discussion of the distinction between power over and power with.

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And so I think in the context of Sunrise,

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I would define collaboration as an effort to build power with other young people

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towards a common goal, you know, in order to win a common goal.

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And that common goal is Green New Deal legislation and is, you know,

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a mass mobilization to combat the climate crisis in a way that is in line with

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what science and justice demand.

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So that's how I would define it, is young people working to build power with

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each other towards that goal.

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But then if we want to build power with, then of course you have to shape that, right?

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You have to build your organization, you have to engage people and bring them in.

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So what are the real steps you would take there? What's the method then to build

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power with, also in your experience?

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Well, Fenris' theory of change can really be broken down into two pieces.

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One of those pieces, and we, you know, teach this in almost all of our introductory

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trainings, and this is really something we disseminate to as many people as

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we can within the movement's network.

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Work um so the theory changes two pieces first

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is people power um and by

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people power we mean sort of two things the first is mass mobilization but the

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second is and direct action and and you know protest and but the other is actually

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just talking to our communities that's really i think core to what sunrise says

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um and and trying to relate to people who may not already be engaged

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in the movement on a personal level, through our personal stories or through,

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you know, narratives that are anchored in the places that we care about.

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Whether you're in a hub or whether you're on the national staff.

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So that's the first is sort of building people power and absorbing new people

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into the movement and then activating existing members to take action,

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protest or contact government representatives or, or whatever else might make sense at that moment.

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But getting them energized to do that. And then the second is political power.

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And, you know, When Sunrise was founded,

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the basic idea beyond that political power piece was to get fossil fuel money

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out of our elections as much as possible and to vote out leaders who are beholden

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to the interests of fossil fuel executives and instead vote in leaders who are

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aligned with the movement.

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And the theory of change is that with those two pieces combined you can really change the.

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Government agenda the dominant government agenda in the places we call home

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and win the legislation we want to tackle the climate crisis those are the two pieces,

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people power, political power that we talk about but do you see them as independent

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pieces or do you see them as interlinked.

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Very interlinked.

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Sunrise absolutely believes that our political leaders are responsive to mass

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protest and to, you know, popular action and popular ideas.

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And certainly, you know, if you're able to activate young people at the voting

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block, then that's going to be helpful when it comes to building political power.

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And certainly, if your mainstream political leaders are talking about your movement's

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ideas, more people are going to get involved. So they're very connected.

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Because we should bring in the fact that most of your membership is too young to vote. Is that right?

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Because you couldn't do anything at the ballot box.

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Yeah. So you mean, what is it about working with Sunrise that was empowering to me or?

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No, although I'm sure a lot. But so what is it?

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Since you can't yet vote, are you are you trying to reach those who can vote?

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Are you trying to build up some sense of purpose among young people who then

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once they can vote will express that?

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And so it's kind of like a promissory action in the future.

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And through that, it's going to influence politicians.

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Or is it through the protests that you think, you know, for those who can't

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yet vote, is that where their real power is?

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I see uh you know i

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think the answer is sort of yes to all of the above so sunrise

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has done a lot of voter registration work and a lot of work to turn out young

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people at the polls and turn out people who are concerned about the issue of

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climate change um i think absolutely you know peaceful non-violent protest moral

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protest holds a lot of power and sunrise often looks to examples

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of that kind of protest from the past, like the civil rights movement, um, for inspiration.

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And it's particularly inspired actually, but I think by these past examples of collaboration,

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um, personally, I've done a lot of independent study of the ways in which civil

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rights leaders collaborated with each other in order to, um,

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you know, when legislation like the civil rights act of 1964.

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Um, and so I, I think, yes, absolutely. As someone who can't vote,

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being able to show up in that way, um, has been critical.

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And, um, yeah. And I think, you know, also it is about.

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Helping young people develop a political consciousness even before they can

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vote and, you know, combating sort of climate anxiety and, yeah,

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a really pessimistic or even fatalistic view of the future that many,

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many young people are starting to develop because of the climate crisis by saying,

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hey, look, it also presents an opportunity to build something better if we can

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work together well enough to make that happen.

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And so to all of the things you said, I think, yeah, yeah, I've felt power come

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from all three of those sources.

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But now, Nina, so what you emphasize a lot now in your analysis is this very

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central concept of power, right? Power over power with.

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Now, that's not necessarily a straight line, right?

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Because in some sense, by developing power with your membership,

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you do try to develop power over, right? The opponents that you face from the

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fossil fuel industry, for instance, and their associated politician.

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So how do you balance that? Because whether you like it or not,

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and whether you find power with your overarching value,

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through that, you're trying to exert power over. So how do you balance that?

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Such a good question. and one that I remember sort of grappling with that day

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at that training I mentioned where that idea was introduced.

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I think, you know, one of the things about being in a movement setting with

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people who share your values is that you're trusting each other to hold each

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other accountable to the goals of the movement and the values of the movement.

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And I think that's That's what makes it less intimidating to have power over

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anyone, even if those people are, you know, corporate executives and wealthy

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politicians who historically have held a lot of the power in our society.

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Society um and yeah i

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would so i would say for me personally the idea

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that you know the the people who i work with are fundamentally want the same

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things i want for the same or similar reasons that i want them right want a

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society that works for everyone that takes care of everyone that is

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more equitable and that has a sustainable future makes me much more comfortable

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with the idea of power over because it makes me feel like if,

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If we overstep our bounds or if we do something that exists outside of those

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values, then we can correct that because we're working together.

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Yeah, I'm not sure if that entirely answers your question. Feel free to ask a follow up.

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Well, OK, so you feel that the movement is self-correcting, right?

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But so there are a number of issues that then crop up that I find that are interesting

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follow-ups here, because then I could say, well, but by exerting power over,

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you also set up a dialectic that helps you to build your power with,

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because now you pointed out an enemy. It's us against.

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So it's not us for, it is us against. So in that sense, the power over is almost

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a necessary ingredient to then build your power with.

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And that would then, of course, the power with also make it intrinsically possibly instable.

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Or do you think my interpretation is unnecessarily negative and cynical about that?

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Um no i think it's a really interesting point and i think i mean i would push back slightly on um,

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or i would add i guess to this idea of pointing out an enemy because i think

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sunrise from the very beginning has been very intentional about yes naming a

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few wealthy executives executives,

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as an obstacle to the world we want to build.

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But it's actually always been much more about the world we want to build.

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I think, you know, with, for example, the storytelling and public narrative

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that Sunrise incorporates into its work, it's never really about this person

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or this demographic has wronged me or wronged my community. And now it's time to.

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Take back the power or exact revenge. It's always about, this is what I envision

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my community looking like if we could pass this legislation,

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or if we could begin to think about this in a different way.

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You know, and whether that's about sustainable, locally grown,

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fresh produce accessible to everyone, or clean water coming out of the tap,

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no matter what code you live in, or, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

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But it's very much about this vision for a better world. At least in my eyes,

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it's been much less about antagonizing, you know, corporate executives and instead

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has been about, you know, being candid about what the obstacles are,

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but not dwelling on who's responsible and how we punish them.

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So I guess I would want to make that clear. But I think you're,

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yeah, I think you're right that inherently there is some, you know,

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some component of the work that is about building power over those who have

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historically held power.

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Right. But then we can now switch the objective from going from the power over

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and against to the power for.

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As you were describing some elements what

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you are for and that would defend an end goal that you would see that would

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mean also a world where something like a Green New Deal has been realized so

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what does that world look like that you would then be for as a Sunrise Movement.

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You know I can I didn't...

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Sort of anchor it in the places I'm familiar with, I think, a little bit.

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So, you know, in the state of Michigan,

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for example, where I've grown up, I would want to see Indigenous populations regain control of,

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you know, much of the land and water and natural resources here and resume a

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rightful role as stewards of, you know, this place.

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I would want to see public education funded much more equally across racial

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and socioeconomic divides.

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And I would want to see our public education include case-based education about

00:20:57.040 --> 00:21:02.220
the state and its natural resources environment and how we can properly take care of it.

00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:09.140
I, of course, would want to never see something like the Flint water crisis happen again.

00:21:09.140 --> 00:21:14.560
Again, I would want to see Detroit residents be taken care of and not be bankrupted

00:21:14.560 --> 00:21:18.600
if their homes flood because of, you know, excessive precipitation or other

00:21:18.600 --> 00:21:19.500
climate-related disasters.

00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:24.300
You know, the list goes on and on and on and on, right? I would want to see

00:21:24.300 --> 00:21:26.180
some of the most polluted zip codes seen in depth.

00:21:26.460 --> 00:21:30.980
Similarly, in somewhere like Appalachia, where my mom's parents have a home,

00:21:31.100 --> 00:21:35.700
I, again, would want to see Indigenous people regain a lot of control of the

00:21:35.700 --> 00:21:37.160
land and resources there.

00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:43.940
I would want to see, you know, some alleviation of the chronic poverty there

00:21:43.940 --> 00:21:49.960
and certainly some investment in better infrastructure.

00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:57.060
And yeah, the list goes on, but I think it boils down to a society in which

00:21:57.060 --> 00:22:02.880
we take care of the land and the environment,

00:22:03.040 --> 00:22:07.300
and we are taken care of also by our neighbors and by our government.

00:22:07.860 --> 00:22:11.640
So is that program defined somewhere for the Sunrise Movement?

00:22:11.740 --> 00:22:13.800
There's a statement on that, on that outlook?

00:22:16.353 --> 00:22:20.433
I would say that the Green New Deal resolution lays out a lot of that.

00:22:20.493 --> 00:22:23.213
And then also the organizing principles I mentioned earlier.

00:22:23.993 --> 00:22:31.853
This is fascinating because it's such a complex platform or vision.

00:22:33.353 --> 00:22:38.233
And it was interesting to listen to you, Naina, as you were describing it,

00:22:38.253 --> 00:22:43.353
because you switched and you said, I, I would like to see.

00:22:43.353 --> 00:22:46.553
Um so to what how is

00:22:46.553 --> 00:22:49.673
it within your organization uh and

00:22:49.673 --> 00:22:52.973
and we should also talk about different scales right because the organization

00:22:52.973 --> 00:22:57.773
operates at a local scale you said i think you you referred to the cells as

00:22:57.773 --> 00:23:07.013
hubs is that right um yeah and and at a national scale um so how at either one of those scales,

00:23:07.453 --> 00:23:11.813
how does the organization form a vision, its goals?

00:23:12.233 --> 00:23:14.273
What is that process like?

00:23:16.793 --> 00:23:26.213
Such a wonderful question. So each hub or many hubs have distinct processes

00:23:26.213 --> 00:23:29.753
for, you know, developing things like demands,

00:23:29.933 --> 00:23:36.493
if they're going to, you know, hold a nonviolent action, or if they're going

00:23:36.493 --> 00:23:40.013
into a meeting with a local politician or, you know, whatever the occasion may be.

00:23:40.273 --> 00:23:45.513
And so, you know, some of those processes involve the entire hub membership

00:23:45.513 --> 00:23:51.653
getting together virtually or in person and going through some kind of process

00:23:51.653 --> 00:23:56.293
where everyone talks about what's important to them to get out of the meeting,

00:23:56.353 --> 00:23:59.793
get out of the action or have accomplished a year from that point.

00:23:59.793 --> 00:24:02.673
And then, you know,

00:24:02.713 --> 00:24:10.673
they sort of work together over time to develop a list of demands or a broader

00:24:10.673 --> 00:24:15.933
vision for how they want to transform the place where they're anchored.

00:24:15.953 --> 00:24:18.873
Does the hub need to do this with the national office? Yes.

00:24:19.801 --> 00:24:23.621
Absolutely not, as long as it exists within the organizing principles,

00:24:23.841 --> 00:24:28.081
which I would be happy to share later on.

00:24:28.181 --> 00:24:34.581
But essentially, they say we are nonviolent in word and deed and talk a bit

00:24:34.581 --> 00:24:39.761
about being inclusive in the movement of all kinds of different backgrounds. Yeah.

00:24:40.981 --> 00:24:45.261
Then they're fine. They can they can do and they should do whatever makes sense.

00:24:45.341 --> 00:24:48.661
The national organization, at least in a in a perfect world,

00:24:48.781 --> 00:24:55.481
does not presume to know, you know, more about a local context than the people who live there.

00:24:56.641 --> 00:25:00.801
So hubs do not have to get permission from from from national.

00:25:01.421 --> 00:25:05.221
So, again, some processes at the local level have everyone involved.

00:25:05.221 --> 00:25:09.721
Some processes are spearheaded by what we call a hub coordinator,

00:25:09.981 --> 00:25:12.821
who's sort of responsible for overseeing the function of the hub.

00:25:13.281 --> 00:25:16.501
Others are spearheaded by maybe a hub political director.

00:25:17.361 --> 00:25:20.981
Each hub sort of structures itself differently, and that's fine.

00:25:21.161 --> 00:25:26.581
Many hubs, you know, are connected online via Slack workspace or some other

00:25:26.581 --> 00:25:28.641
way, you know, social media often.

00:25:29.481 --> 00:25:35.221
And we'll share documents or insights or get on the phone, two leaders will

00:25:35.221 --> 00:25:37.581
get on the phone with each other and say, you know, this is what worked for

00:25:37.581 --> 00:25:40.321
us when we were developing our vision or our demands.

00:25:40.561 --> 00:25:45.621
This is the process we used. You're a similarly sized hub. You have a similar,

00:25:45.661 --> 00:25:47.501
you know, local context.

00:25:47.581 --> 00:25:52.781
Maybe we both organize in very conservative areas, or maybe we're both in big

00:25:52.781 --> 00:25:54.941
cities, whatever the through line may be.

00:25:55.081 --> 00:25:59.481
And we'll sort of share their wisdom and share expertise when possible,

00:25:59.621 --> 00:26:00.681
which, which is really cool.

00:26:02.581 --> 00:26:07.081
So yeah, they're, they're sort of on the local level. And then at the national level, yeah,

00:26:08.242 --> 00:26:13.222
Obviously, again, people are bound together by this shared theory of change

00:26:13.222 --> 00:26:19.842
I mentioned earlier and by this set of principles that we organize under.

00:26:20.802 --> 00:26:23.842
At the national level, I think, you know,

00:26:23.842 --> 00:26:29.682
one of the difficult and one of the great things about Sunrise is that decision

00:26:29.682 --> 00:26:37.282
making and visioning processes change pretty regularly based on what, you know,

00:26:37.302 --> 00:26:42.602
the staff of the organization has identified as strengths and weaknesses in our approach.

00:26:43.342 --> 00:26:47.522
But it is almost always collaborative and whether that collaboration looks like,

00:26:47.522 --> 00:26:50.662
you know, one or two people drafting a document and then many people giving

00:26:50.662 --> 00:26:53.482
feedback and revising and honing,

00:26:53.522 --> 00:26:58.042
whether it looks like, you know, a series of six meetings where people are getting

00:26:58.042 --> 00:27:00.042
together to share thoughts, feelings, emotions,

00:27:00.242 --> 00:27:05.222
hopes, fears about what comes next for the movement or what comes next for the

00:27:05.222 --> 00:27:08.542
country, and then putting that into a shared action plan.

00:27:09.262 --> 00:27:12.682
Really, the list goes on and on and on of ways that that process can unfold.

00:27:12.902 --> 00:27:17.222
But it is both locally and nationally, I think, almost always a collaborative one.

00:27:17.782 --> 00:27:22.042
But Nina, what I find interesting is that you're saying almost always collaborative.

00:27:22.942 --> 00:27:27.782
So when is it then not collaborative and why not?

00:27:30.802 --> 00:27:35.962
I think there are probably instances where, because of group dynamics,

00:27:35.962 --> 00:27:40.062
academics, often at the local level, I would say nationally,

00:27:40.082 --> 00:27:43.302
because people are employed, there's a little bit more structure to the collaboration.

00:27:43.382 --> 00:27:50.002
But locally, I think it's possible that, for example, a small hub of,

00:27:50.042 --> 00:27:54.162
say, five people, four of them start to get burnt out, and then one of them

00:27:54.162 --> 00:27:56.942
is sort of calling shots and organizing on their own.

00:27:57.622 --> 00:28:03.202
Or similarly, you know, sometimes maybe one person has a lot more experience

00:28:03.202 --> 00:28:07.442
or a lot more confidence than everyone else in the group and until the group

00:28:07.442 --> 00:28:09.702
dynamic can sort of accommodate that and the,

00:28:10.202 --> 00:28:13.742
other four however many there are can um

00:28:13.742 --> 00:28:19.342
yeah sort of see that their contributions are also valued that one person is

00:28:19.342 --> 00:28:25.602
still sort of you know collaborating in name but um not in in practice um and

00:28:25.602 --> 00:28:31.342
i think that's pretty rare like i think generally things work as they're supposed

00:28:31.342 --> 00:28:33.222
to but But it's always a possibility.

00:28:33.482 --> 00:28:37.382
And I think it does happen. What you're pointing to, Nina, here,

00:28:37.602 --> 00:28:44.542
which is always very difficult to regulate, is how do you resolve conflict? So you have your nodes.

00:28:44.882 --> 00:28:48.142
You have a dynamic inside nodes. You have a dynamic within nodes.

00:28:48.262 --> 00:28:51.082
And then in some hierarchical relation to a central node.

00:28:51.842 --> 00:28:55.442
So how do you deal with conflict in the end?

00:28:55.542 --> 00:28:58.942
Is that formalized in some way? Do you have a process for that,

00:28:59.042 --> 00:29:00.362
even to identify conflict?

00:29:03.850 --> 00:29:13.670
Well, at the local level, I have seen hubs share wisdom and knowledge on this topic as well.

00:29:16.190 --> 00:29:24.670
So, you know, if a hub is having conflict over whether it makes sense in their

00:29:24.670 --> 00:29:29.130
local context to engage in mutual aid or whether they should stick to legislative work,

00:29:29.130 --> 00:29:34.030
Or they might reach out to another hub who's had that same debate and say,

00:29:34.130 --> 00:29:35.410
you know, how did you guide your discussion?

00:29:35.770 --> 00:29:38.230
How did you, you know, which is interesting, right? Like when collaboration

00:29:38.230 --> 00:29:46.050
is difficult within the hub, collaboration with another hub can come in and

00:29:46.050 --> 00:29:49.570
sort of help resolve that, which is fascinating to me.

00:29:51.090 --> 00:29:58.350
Um and i think um you know if there's a an interpersonal conflict like you know

00:29:58.350 --> 00:30:04.830
someone has committed harm against another hub member sunrise national does have human resources um,

00:30:05.510 --> 00:30:11.410
and and you know hired personnel who can help with that and and the local members

00:30:11.410 --> 00:30:15.510
have access to those people should they want that that kind of help um or that

00:30:15.510 --> 00:30:18.970
kind of intervention um so it sort of depends if the conflict is like about

00:30:18.970 --> 00:30:23.270
members clashing or injustice that has happened,

00:30:23.450 --> 00:30:27.130
or if it's about, you know, the ideas themselves or the mission itself.

00:30:27.470 --> 00:30:34.070
Um, at the national level, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I would say that the process

00:30:34.070 --> 00:30:38.610
for dealing with conflict has evolved and changed many times over the years as well.

00:30:38.690 --> 00:30:43.570
And in general, we've, um, you know, worked and are continuing to work towards

00:30:43.570 --> 00:30:50.190
a culture that's not conflict avoidant, but rather can respond to conflict in

00:30:50.190 --> 00:30:52.830
a way that's productive for everyone involved.

00:30:52.950 --> 00:30:56.190
And that's, you know, that's easier said than done, but it's definitely a goal

00:30:56.190 --> 00:30:58.430
I've seen people talk about very openly.

00:30:59.630 --> 00:31:06.570
And again, you know, we have, it is an organization that is a 501c3 with a 501c4 arm.

00:31:06.630 --> 00:31:12.110
So, you know, we have human resources and we have staff members whose job it

00:31:12.110 --> 00:31:14.750
is to help resolve conflict within the movement.

00:31:14.810 --> 00:31:22.190
And we also have many, many, many task forces, committees, and sort of teams

00:31:22.190 --> 00:31:23.770
who are addressing these.

00:31:25.248 --> 00:31:28.248
Big conflicts that are not interpersonal but are about where

00:31:28.248 --> 00:31:31.748
is the future of the movement going how do we ensure that black people

00:31:31.748 --> 00:31:34.488
for example are at the forefront of where our

00:31:34.488 --> 00:31:40.148
movement is headed um and are are listened to and respected um where our movement

00:31:40.148 --> 00:31:43.568
is right now for example like that's been a big thing we've worked on over the

00:31:43.568 --> 00:31:49.188
past um year and a half two years and uh there have been many teams that have

00:31:49.188 --> 00:31:53.348
arisen internally to collaborate towards answering some of those questions.

00:31:53.788 --> 00:31:57.608
But again, I wish I could give like a, you know, this is the process and the

00:31:57.608 --> 00:32:01.648
truth is that it changes all the time based on feedback.

00:32:02.808 --> 00:32:08.748
So you're talking a lot about structure and we're getting a clear sense that

00:32:08.748 --> 00:32:13.868
this is a very decentralized organization where,

00:32:14.708 --> 00:32:19.788
so much is happening within the hubs that have a lot of autonomy, right?

00:32:20.048 --> 00:32:26.268
And you've talked about how the movement has used that decentralization as a

00:32:26.268 --> 00:32:33.908
strength, that it's been able to define goals locally because, as you said,

00:32:34.088 --> 00:32:40.348
the national organization says, no, you at the local level, you know the ground

00:32:40.348 --> 00:32:42.448
game much better than we do.

00:32:43.568 --> 00:32:49.108
That's fantastic. And then also the sharing of information from one hub to another.

00:32:49.228 --> 00:32:54.108
What are the downsides of this radical decentralization of the movement?

00:32:57.408 --> 00:33:05.688
Well, you know, for one, there is, of course, tension sometimes between our

00:33:05.688 --> 00:33:08.748
local hubs and our national organizations.

00:33:09.008 --> 00:33:12.808
I myself have, you know, been a local organizer are at moments where there's

00:33:12.808 --> 00:33:18.488
a lot of work, a lot of motion sort of happening in the national organization,

00:33:18.528 --> 00:33:22.828
and it can get overwhelming, hard to stay caught up to date if the communication.

00:33:24.488 --> 00:33:26.248
Isn't, you know, crystal clear.

00:33:26.448 --> 00:33:29.608
And these are humans at the end of the day, right? Like, who are staffing the

00:33:29.608 --> 00:33:31.888
national organization and trying, you know, doing their best.

00:33:31.988 --> 00:33:36.828
But of course, sometimes it doesn't, it falls short of where it needs to be.

00:33:38.068 --> 00:33:42.748
So, yeah, it can get overwhelming, it can get confusing, or it can feel too

00:33:42.748 --> 00:33:46.768
directive at times, or it can feel not supportive enough at times, right?

00:33:46.848 --> 00:33:51.348
Like, for example, I think, you know, some of our, some of our national leaders

00:33:51.348 --> 00:33:55.128
are frequently meeting with, at this point, with,

00:33:55.268 --> 00:34:00.848
you know, people from the Biden administration, and how do you maintain security

00:34:00.848 --> 00:34:03.568
and privacy and discretion,

00:34:03.808 --> 00:34:09.148
but also communicate candidly about complex policy dilemmas to a network of

00:34:09.148 --> 00:34:13.488
500 plus local hubs and without also seeming, you know,

00:34:14.228 --> 00:34:20.088
like you, you, you at the, at the, at the top of the national organization, um.

00:34:21.720 --> 00:34:26.080
Yeah, are somehow better or more important than a local organizer, right?

00:34:26.160 --> 00:34:32.460
Like, that's a really hard question, you know, and the back to this idea of

00:34:32.460 --> 00:34:36.260
power, like, how is our, how is some of our proximity to power,

00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:40.420
how does that translate to all of us building more power instead of fighting with each other?

00:34:40.780 --> 00:34:43.420
I think Sunrise does a good job of that, but it's, of course, a

00:34:43.420 --> 00:34:47.980
challenge to overcome um and so

00:34:47.980 --> 00:34:51.500
i yeah i would say a drawback or

00:34:51.500 --> 00:34:54.500
or a challenge um is that

00:34:54.500 --> 00:34:58.080
the tension between that can arise between local grassroots

00:34:58.080 --> 00:35:03.300
organizers and national staff when there's a disconnect in communication um

00:35:03.300 --> 00:35:07.560
or a you know an imbalance of it either being too directive or not directive

00:35:07.560 --> 00:35:13.080
enough from the national the national org for sure what about Because you have

00:35:13.080 --> 00:35:14.880
some principles, some guiding principles,

00:35:15.140 --> 00:35:17.100
and probably,

00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:20.060
even though it's a very complex vision,

00:35:20.500 --> 00:35:26.940
for sure, when the national organization is consulting with the Biden administration,

00:35:27.460 --> 00:35:33.360
there is a clearer platform and a vision that they're proposing.

00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:41.000
To what extent do you think that the decentralization is a hindrance to making

00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:46.020
progress toward some bigger goals?

00:35:50.311 --> 00:35:53.771
Well, I would say on balance, it's much more of an asset.

00:35:53.991 --> 00:35:59.971
Like, I think that the fact of having this huge decentralized movement who,

00:36:00.151 --> 00:36:03.831
by and large, care about the same thing, backing,

00:36:04.211 --> 00:36:08.531
you know, various movement leaders as they go into these meetings in the halls

00:36:08.531 --> 00:36:14.991
of power is much more of an asset than anything else.

00:36:15.131 --> 00:36:20.771
But I would say, you know, we have to be really intentional about how we create strategy.

00:36:20.871 --> 00:36:24.911
And there have been times in the movement's history where local and grassroots

00:36:24.911 --> 00:36:26.171
organizers have stood up and

00:36:26.171 --> 00:36:32.371
said, we had no hand or we did not have an adequate hand in creating this,

00:36:32.451 --> 00:36:35.831
you know, strategy that our movement is now posting about on its social media

00:36:35.831 --> 00:36:39.071
and is now organizing national mobilizations around, and that's not okay.

00:36:39.251 --> 00:36:43.411
And then the processes have had to be refined. And so, you know,

00:36:43.431 --> 00:36:48.511
sometimes national staff members will hold a role that's entirely about scheduling,

00:36:48.771 --> 00:36:54.011
facilitating, and documenting calls with grassroots leaders that are open to

00:36:54.011 --> 00:37:00.371
anyone where, you know, questions are asked or feedback is given on an upcoming campaign proposal.

00:37:01.771 --> 00:37:06.431
Or just, you know, where sort of there's an exchange of ideas in the early stages

00:37:06.431 --> 00:37:09.591
of crafting the next phase of strategy.

00:37:10.651 --> 00:37:14.391
So, and that has helped, but again, you know,

00:37:14.391 --> 00:37:17.311
we have to just we have to engage in

00:37:17.311 --> 00:37:20.071
that before we ideally we do engage in that

00:37:20.071 --> 00:37:23.231
before we um you know move on on

00:37:23.231 --> 00:37:28.771
the on the scale of federal policy making or co-governance um and so i actually

00:37:28.771 --> 00:37:33.771
i don't think that's a drawback either i think um it's probably also a value

00:37:33.771 --> 00:37:39.131
um but it but it takes time and it takes a lot of energy and it and it doesn't

00:37:39.131 --> 00:37:42.251
always go the way you want it to the first time, and that can be hard.

00:37:44.011 --> 00:37:50.651
And I also think, you know, and I actually haven't seen so many instances of

00:37:50.651 --> 00:37:57.411
problems like this, but in my, during my time at Sunrise, but I can imagine scenarios in which,

00:37:57.571 --> 00:38:00.811
you know, and I'm sure there have been scenarios in

00:38:00.891 --> 00:38:09.411
which someone on our national political team is having a complex and sort of

00:38:09.411 --> 00:38:13.471
precarious conversation with a congressperson,

00:38:13.511 --> 00:38:19.411
and then that hub targets that congressperson or one of their close allies,

00:38:19.631 --> 00:38:23.811
and then that interferes with that national negotiation, right?

00:38:23.931 --> 00:38:28.291
And so there's always that possibility because hubs have so much autonomy.

00:38:28.431 --> 00:38:33.611
How do you respond? How's the organization respond when you have this kind of problem like that?

00:38:37.123 --> 00:38:42.963
I mean, honestly, like you would probably have to ask a political staff person

00:38:42.963 --> 00:38:47.063
for an example, like from their actual work, because it's never happened to me.

00:38:48.063 --> 00:38:52.743
But I will say, I think a lot of times we lean on relationships.

00:38:53.363 --> 00:38:59.143
So, you know, ideally our, you know, quote unquote, highest level or highest

00:38:59.143 --> 00:39:03.023
rank, which I am like loathe to even use those terms.

00:39:03.023 --> 00:39:06.583
But ideally, those staff people of

00:39:06.583 --> 00:39:12.163
the national organization have significant relationships with members of our

00:39:12.163 --> 00:39:17.443
strongest hubs or hubs in regions that are of personal importance to them and

00:39:17.443 --> 00:39:23.703
can sort of lean on those relationships in moments of crisis or miscommunication and lean on built trust.

00:39:23.703 --> 00:39:29.343
And so I think that's the ideal like if a situation like that did arise I think the ideal,

00:39:30.063 --> 00:39:35.203
path forward would be for you know whoever was engaging in the national negotiations,

00:39:35.863 --> 00:39:39.443
to talk to someone they have a relationship with in the hub and say look we

00:39:39.443 --> 00:39:43.583
know each other we trust each other I have to say I'm doing this thing is there

00:39:43.583 --> 00:39:45.243
any way you could back off and maybe the hub says,

00:39:45.703 --> 00:39:49.263
no like we know what we're doing we've been engaging in this campaign for longer

00:39:49.263 --> 00:39:52.643
than you've been in your negotiation can you please back off and that's you

00:39:52.643 --> 00:39:56.903
know something that they would have to figure out using that relationship and trust.

00:39:57.023 --> 00:39:59.883
So I think that's usually the best way, of course.

00:40:00.343 --> 00:40:05.883
But again, you'd probably have to ask someone who's had that specific thing happen.

00:40:06.363 --> 00:40:10.303
So Nina, we looked a little bit at where things can go wrong.

00:40:11.063 --> 00:40:14.503
But can you give us some examples where it really went right,

00:40:14.663 --> 00:40:19.523
where you would say, look, by virtue of the way we work, we really achieved

00:40:19.523 --> 00:40:23.483
a success that no one else managed to achieve previously.

00:40:23.703 --> 00:40:28.503
So can you give us sort of some of these outstanding examples of impact?

00:40:32.583 --> 00:40:42.203
Yeah, I can use an example from Ann Arbor, Michigan, actually, to start us off. So.

00:40:43.857 --> 00:40:55.497
About two years ago, the Ann Arbor Hub of Sunrise launched a campaign to persuade

00:40:55.497 --> 00:40:56.917
Congresswoman Debbie Dingell,

00:40:57.017 --> 00:40:59.677
who represents our district in House of Representatives,

00:40:59.957 --> 00:41:02.297
to co-sponsor the Green New Deal resolution. revolution.

00:41:02.757 --> 00:41:07.377
And, you know, the campaign started off with, you know, meetings with the congresswoman,

00:41:08.237 --> 00:41:13.077
sort of informational discussions about what the Green New Deal was.

00:41:13.377 --> 00:41:21.117
But as time progressed, it escalated towards, you know, nonviolent direct action at her office.

00:41:22.097 --> 00:41:28.097
And I think even a couple hub members were arrested in the fall of 2019.

00:41:28.857 --> 00:41:32.817
And, you know, it was a very tense

00:41:32.817 --> 00:41:36.897
relationship that the hub held with the congressman for quite some time.

00:41:38.357 --> 00:41:43.757
Eventually, we had a meeting which defused some of the tensions and,

00:41:43.797 --> 00:41:47.837
you know, sort of behind closed doors and credit to the congressman for being

00:41:47.837 --> 00:41:49.697
willing to engage with us in that setting.

00:41:50.857 --> 00:41:58.317
And, you know, one actual challenge that we had was that, you know,

00:41:58.317 --> 00:42:00.897
I think it was hard for the congresswoman,

00:42:01.357 --> 00:42:05.917
and this is totally understandable, but I think it was hard to grasp who was

00:42:05.917 --> 00:42:11.017
the key negotiator, whether it was, you know, legislative and policy at the national level,

00:42:11.057 --> 00:42:16.897
or whether it was the people who were planning the mobilizations that the hub was engaging in.

00:42:17.397 --> 00:42:22.097
And, of course, in that And in that setting, it would have been the hub leaders

00:42:22.097 --> 00:42:25.517
because the national leaders had nothing to do with the creation of this campaign

00:42:25.517 --> 00:42:29.377
arc that was manifesting in protests at her office.

00:42:30.377 --> 00:42:34.497
But, you know, that that made communication hard because.

00:42:35.962 --> 00:42:42.842
You know, how was she to know who to talk to in this complicated network of

00:42:42.842 --> 00:42:44.122
movement, Sunrise Women Leaders?

00:42:45.762 --> 00:42:53.922
But once that was clarified, you know, I think one of the results of the campaign

00:42:53.922 --> 00:42:56.662
that we launched was that the congresswoman became,

00:42:56.982 --> 00:43:04.162
and I, you know, I really want to say this in a way that is appreciative of her.

00:43:04.162 --> 00:43:11.622
But she became much more receptive to hearings from young constituents who were

00:43:11.622 --> 00:43:13.822
previously angry and, you know, even said,

00:43:13.862 --> 00:43:19.402
perhaps we should set up a, you know, quarterly meeting with the hub and myself

00:43:19.402 --> 00:43:24.702
to talk about what it is that I'm doing on environment that's working and what's

00:43:24.702 --> 00:43:26.482
not and what ideas you guys have.

00:43:26.482 --> 00:43:32.042
And she also became someone that the national movement was really able to work

00:43:32.042 --> 00:43:32.942
with in productive ways.

00:43:33.082 --> 00:43:38.642
She has wonderful and unique relationships to the auto industry and to many

00:43:38.642 --> 00:43:41.642
labor unions that are really critical to our national work.

00:43:41.642 --> 00:43:44.662
And, you know, sort of in response,

00:43:44.982 --> 00:43:49.182
in part in response to the protest that the hub launched at her,

00:43:49.202 --> 00:43:54.122
at her doors for several months intermittently,

00:43:54.242 --> 00:44:01.422
she really, I think, became even more invested in working with the national

00:44:01.422 --> 00:44:03.462
organization on things like town hall events,

00:44:03.642 --> 00:44:07.382
things like the Thrive Agenda, which was a legislative package we felt was in

00:44:07.382 --> 00:44:12.242
line with the Green New Deal, which we worked with many members of Congress on. through the Q&A.

00:44:13.502 --> 00:44:17.722
Also helped you know work behind the scenes to really think through these questions of how

00:44:18.082 --> 00:44:21.182
labor how the auto industry can sort of come together

00:44:21.182 --> 00:44:26.642
under something like a green new deal vision um and so i i hope that's a clear

00:44:26.642 --> 00:44:31.042
explanation i don't want to go on and on about it but um yeah it was hard in

00:44:31.042 --> 00:44:34.362
the beginning and now she's a really key ally to the movement in part because

00:44:34.362 --> 00:44:40.402
this local hub launched this campaign that then um but nina what's interesting about your example,

00:44:40.662 --> 00:44:46.362
is that you say, look, we found the supporter of the movement, right?

00:44:46.482 --> 00:44:51.662
But my real question was, what was the impact outside of the movement and actually

00:44:51.662 --> 00:44:56.402
moving towards the realization of these objectives of the Green Deal?

00:44:59.282 --> 00:45:04.442
Yeah, and I would say, you know, to have Congresswoman Dingell convening conversations

00:45:04.442 --> 00:45:12.202
with labor unions and auto workers and leaders in those sectors is moving us

00:45:12.202 --> 00:45:15.662
toward where we need to be because it's expanding the circle of collaboration

00:45:15.662 --> 00:45:18.122
in really critical directions.

00:45:18.542 --> 00:45:23.402
And what made it happen? What was the critical feature that the Sunrise Movement

00:45:23.402 --> 00:45:26.742
brought to the table to make that happen?

00:45:26.802 --> 00:45:31.582
Was it because of the constituents, the mainly young people who speak with her

00:45:31.582 --> 00:45:36.302
in a more constructive way, let's say? Was that a decisive factor or was it,

00:45:36.302 --> 00:45:39.402
let's say, the collaborative approach? What made the difference?

00:45:43.322 --> 00:45:48.442
Well, I think it's hard to pinpoint one thing.

00:45:48.582 --> 00:45:52.562
I think, yes, young people have a unique moral authority, especially when it

00:45:52.562 --> 00:45:57.382
comes to the climate crisis, that grabbed attention and that certainly helped.

00:45:58.582 --> 00:46:02.282
I'll speak now not just with regard to the situation with Congressman Dingell,

00:46:02.322 --> 00:46:05.762
but sort of generally about the movement's impact. So yes, young people's moral authority.

00:46:07.582 --> 00:46:15.582
Also, I think Sunrise, you know, fundamentally was founded to shape American politics.

00:46:16.502 --> 00:46:19.922
But it's not a, it's not a lobbyist organization.

00:46:20.302 --> 00:46:25.142
The way that Sunrise strives to get elected officials' attention is not through

00:46:25.142 --> 00:46:28.602
scheduling closed door meetings with their legislative aides,

00:46:28.642 --> 00:46:30.262
not that there's anything wrong with that approach.

00:46:30.382 --> 00:46:37.122
It is by, you know, protesting outside of their offices or, you know,

00:46:37.162 --> 00:46:41.962
specifically calling them out with signs that say their name and big black letters,

00:46:42.822 --> 00:46:44.442
you know, that show up in the press.

00:46:44.562 --> 00:46:49.362
And the point is, right, it is public. Yeah, exactly.

00:46:49.922 --> 00:46:53.382
And I think, you know, the moral authority young people have actually is part

00:46:53.382 --> 00:46:57.422
of what what makes that strategy work. So these things are really connected.

00:46:59.882 --> 00:47:02.402
But yeah, you know,

00:47:03.969 --> 00:47:11.069
How easy would it be for young people to get the attention of some of our nation's

00:47:11.069 --> 00:47:21.349
most powerful political leaders if they weren't engaging in mass mobilization? Maybe not as easy.

00:47:22.089 --> 00:47:25.809
In the past, it certainly hasn't been. So, yeah. Right.

00:47:26.209 --> 00:47:31.389
But then we can also look at the other side. Like, what was the biggest failure

00:47:31.389 --> 00:47:36.069
so far? Here we have a success, it worked, it works also because of what you

00:47:36.069 --> 00:47:38.169
call the moral authority of young people.

00:47:38.929 --> 00:47:45.049
But on the other hand, on other occasions, I'm sure, things did not work out the way it was planned.

00:47:46.069 --> 00:47:49.589
So could you give an example of that and the underlying reasons?

00:47:51.629 --> 00:47:52.109
Yeah.

00:47:56.049 --> 00:47:59.509
I'm taking a minute to think, not because there's any sort of disdain.

00:47:59.509 --> 00:48:01.329
The standardized movement never fails.

00:48:07.809 --> 00:48:16.409
Yeah, so, I mean, I would say we,

00:48:16.529 --> 00:48:20.709
I would say that this is a failure that was recovered from well,

00:48:20.809 --> 00:48:24.929
but it was one that I, in my mind, I'm thinking, like, what had the biggest

00:48:24.929 --> 00:48:26.869
emotional impact on the movement?

00:48:27.289 --> 00:48:32.189
And this is something that comes to mind. So, you know, Sunrise endorsed Senator

00:48:32.189 --> 00:48:38.229
Bernie Sanders in the 2020 Democratic presidential primary here in the U.S.

00:48:38.229 --> 00:48:41.409
And really, you know,

00:48:41.509 --> 00:48:47.929
the grassroots members of our movement really became invested in,

00:48:47.989 --> 00:48:54.709
many of them, really became invested in that campaign and in its mandate.

00:48:54.709 --> 00:49:05.289
And when Senator Sanders pulled out of or dropped out of the race,

00:49:05.389 --> 00:49:07.429
when it came time for him to do that,

00:49:07.549 --> 00:49:12.129
it was hugely impactful on the whole youth climate movement,

00:49:12.289 --> 00:49:15.609
I think, here in the US, and on sunrise,

00:49:15.769 --> 00:49:18.309
especially because we had endorsed him.

00:49:21.712 --> 00:49:27.432
You know, I think it was, yeah, I think it was really hard for people to get

00:49:27.432 --> 00:49:35.072
excited about campaigning for President Biden after so many months of working

00:49:35.072 --> 00:49:39.432
to draw the distinction between him and Senator Sanders. standards.

00:49:41.652 --> 00:49:48.812
And, you know, in the end, Sunrise made, gosh, I don't even,

00:49:48.832 --> 00:49:51.852
I should know this number off the top of my head, but many, many,

00:49:51.952 --> 00:49:55.292
many phone calls for President Biden's campaign and worked,

00:49:55.452 --> 00:50:00.912
I think, pretty constructively with his team to create a platform that we felt better about.

00:50:01.072 --> 00:50:04.232
And we're now working to co-govern with him. And that's wonderful.

00:50:04.552 --> 00:50:11.872
But I would say They, for a long time, the national movement or the national

00:50:11.872 --> 00:50:19.272
organization was, you know, moving ahead with crafting a better platform.

00:50:19.372 --> 00:50:27.312
And, you know, yeah, I was sort of processing together as a staff and,

00:50:27.452 --> 00:50:32.792
you know, figuring out where our next political footsteps should fall.

00:50:32.792 --> 00:50:37.352
But the grassroots was not quite, you know, not quite there yet.

00:50:37.392 --> 00:50:42.872
The grassroots was like, we are not ready to help that other guy win this election.

00:50:43.072 --> 00:50:48.252
And they got there eventually, right? But there was a significant disconnect

00:50:48.252 --> 00:50:53.892
that I think, you know, lost us some time and lost us some trust, too,

00:50:53.992 --> 00:50:59.732
where the grassroots really had a hard time with the fact that the national staff was moving,

00:50:59.912 --> 00:51:03.132
you know, forward at a pace that maybe wasn't. wasn't.

00:51:04.357 --> 00:51:07.257
What they would have wanted it to be um and and

00:51:07.257 --> 00:51:09.837
that compromise and trust in the national staff and i

00:51:09.837 --> 00:51:14.797
think it also um was just difficult like it was difficult for people to come

00:51:14.797 --> 00:51:20.777
back from so maybe not a failure but a drawback so the failure i think definitely

00:51:20.777 --> 00:51:25.437
the failure wasn't picking the wrong candidate right because that's that's not

00:51:25.437 --> 00:51:27.677
a failure the The failure was,

00:51:27.937 --> 00:51:31.197
correct me if I'm misunderstanding,

00:51:31.557 --> 00:51:38.937
the failure was either the organization's framing of the significance of this

00:51:38.937 --> 00:51:44.437
candidate and the uniqueness of this candidate in being the only vehicle for

00:51:44.437 --> 00:51:46.177
you to be able to pursue your goals.

00:51:46.377 --> 00:51:53.357
Maybe that was true. Or was the failure that reality struck,

00:51:53.637 --> 00:51:56.897
you have to switch horses, you know, mid-race,

00:51:57.017 --> 00:52:05.957
and the national team was able to get behind Biden, but failed in its ability

00:52:05.957 --> 00:52:10.637
to communicate that to the local teams.

00:52:10.877 --> 00:52:16.217
So what, to you, how would you label the failure? What was the failure?

00:52:17.737 --> 00:52:21.237
I would say you articulated it well with the second thing you said,

00:52:21.297 --> 00:52:29.797
the failure to align around the next step in the wake of disappointment before moving forward.

00:52:30.017 --> 00:52:34.317
And I touched on that earlier, too, of this need to be, by virtue of our structure,

00:52:34.397 --> 00:52:38.617
this need to be very intentional about how we design our steps forward.

00:52:39.057 --> 00:52:43.657
And you use the word trust. Can you tell us a little bit more about the role

00:52:43.657 --> 00:52:46.317
that trust plays in your organization? Thank you.

00:52:48.792 --> 00:52:53.272
There's a saying in Sunrise and in many other organizing spaces I've been in,

00:52:53.332 --> 00:52:55.872
which is, you know, we move at the speed of trust.

00:52:56.972 --> 00:53:01.892
And I think that's very true. I mentioned this example of, you know,

00:53:01.892 --> 00:53:07.232
relationships and trust built between local and national organizers to diffuse

00:53:07.232 --> 00:53:09.972
tension and solve conflict when it arises. recognizes.

00:53:11.552 --> 00:53:16.912
But I also think just in day-to-day work, there are so many little ways in which

00:53:16.912 --> 00:53:20.092
if you trust your collaborators, even if you don't know them on a very personal

00:53:20.092 --> 00:53:21.992
level, but you trust their intentions.

00:53:22.092 --> 00:53:24.332
We also all have a saying, you know, assume best intentions.

00:53:25.952 --> 00:53:31.792
You can move much more quickly because, you know, there's less of a need to.

00:53:34.372 --> 00:53:38.912
To explain and explain and explain where things are coming from.

00:53:39.212 --> 00:53:42.212
And, you know, I think that's really good sometimes.

00:53:42.372 --> 00:53:47.032
And I also think it's good to sort of take a step back and reevaluate and actually

00:53:47.032 --> 00:53:52.932
work to earn and build trust, like work at that instead of just having it sort of there.

00:53:54.072 --> 00:53:57.512
But yeah, we move at the speed of trust. It's something we say a lot. I think it's very true.

00:53:58.912 --> 00:54:01.672
But now isn't part of the

00:54:01.672 --> 00:54:04.912
shock in this period that

00:54:04.912 --> 00:54:07.732
you were sort of were on the knife edge between the black

00:54:07.732 --> 00:54:15.112
deal in the sense of coal and and more fossil fuel driven by by trump and his

00:54:15.112 --> 00:54:21.712
friends or a green deal wasn't part of this emotional shock also that is the

00:54:21.712 --> 00:54:27.312
discovery that the Sunrise Movement is not only about an ideological objective,

00:54:27.552 --> 00:54:29.552
but it's also practically a political move.

00:54:30.052 --> 00:54:35.552
Wasn't that the realization that sort of set in and that needed to be translated to the grassroots?

00:54:35.752 --> 00:54:40.272
Like, hey, yes, we have our goals, we have our ideals, but where the rubber

00:54:40.272 --> 00:54:42.232
meets the road, that's called politics.

00:54:43.032 --> 00:54:48.232
And these are different things, right? So was that not part of the emotional shock?

00:54:52.192 --> 00:54:56.472
I think it may have been. I also think, um, yeah,

00:54:58.496 --> 00:55:11.356
So Sunrise is, you know, pretty responsive to scholarship and literature, which suggests,

00:55:11.516 --> 00:55:15.456
or which sort of asks us to think about movements as ecologies,

00:55:15.616 --> 00:55:18.156
which I think is so interesting.

00:55:18.156 --> 00:55:22.616
But, you know, to think about different organizations, individuals,

00:55:22.796 --> 00:55:29.976
even theories of change as distinct organisms that work together in this ecology,

00:55:30.336 --> 00:55:35.356
make it make it function so that it can, you know, flourish and achieve its goal.

00:55:35.356 --> 00:55:40.116
Um and i think

00:55:40.116 --> 00:55:43.076
one thing that has arisen over the

00:55:43.076 --> 00:55:49.236
past year or two as i mean sunrise was conceptualized 2016 early 2017 really

00:55:49.236 --> 00:55:54.936
took off in 2018 and has you know honestly had a huge impact given how young

00:55:54.936 --> 00:56:02.496
it is um it's a youth movement it's a young youth movement um but uh you know,

00:56:02.516 --> 00:56:05.336
there have been growing pains with that. And there have been missteps.

00:56:05.396 --> 00:56:11.176
And I think one thing that we're thinking about now is that the movement ecology for Green New Deal.

00:56:13.096 --> 00:56:16.876
Is populist in one sense, because I think the Green New Deal encompasses so

00:56:16.876 --> 00:56:20.296
much racial justice work and immigration justice work and gender justice work.

00:56:20.396 --> 00:56:22.116
And, you know, we see it that way.

00:56:22.476 --> 00:56:28.016
But, you know, you're right when you say Sunrise fundamentally is a political organization.

00:56:28.136 --> 00:56:32.076
And so So these other, you know, potential facets of the Green New Deal,

00:56:32.076 --> 00:56:37.696
like mutual aid and any organizing that exists sort of outside our dominant

00:56:37.696 --> 00:56:40.656
institutions and in settings to build alternative institutions,

00:56:40.816 --> 00:56:46.716
but also even just like social justice organizing that's not,

00:56:46.716 --> 00:56:52.776
you know, explicitly about climate, even if it is very connected to the climate crisis, you know.

00:56:55.175 --> 00:57:01.095
I don't think Sunrise can hold all of those different pieces of the Green New

00:57:01.095 --> 00:57:03.415
Deal, which is, for anyone who's familiar with it, you know,

00:57:03.515 --> 00:57:09.595
it's a very broad and very ambitious set of goals and vision for the future.

00:57:10.635 --> 00:57:15.075
And so, yeah, as that idea has become popularized and as it has become more

00:57:15.075 --> 00:57:18.895
politically possible, I think there is this sense that, you know,

00:57:18.995 --> 00:57:20.855
Sunrise cannot be the only movement,

00:57:20.855 --> 00:57:24.415
the only organization in the movement ecology for Green New Deal.

00:57:24.415 --> 00:57:29.575
We need more organizations that are collaborating with Sunrise,

00:57:29.735 --> 00:57:33.375
you know, as whatever Sunrise Next becomes.

00:57:33.495 --> 00:57:36.855
Maybe it is still very focused on politics or maybe it's something else.

00:57:37.175 --> 00:57:39.955
But collaborating with Sunrise on these issues of like, well,

00:57:40.035 --> 00:57:44.275
what does it look like to fight for indigenous sovereignty and maybe even this

00:57:44.275 --> 00:57:49.975
idea of land back under this vision of a Green New Deal or whatever you want to call it?

00:57:49.975 --> 00:57:56.975
But what does it look like to talk about police reform or defending the police

00:57:56.975 --> 00:58:01.995
or these ideas that have come into the mainstream through the lens of combating the climate crisis?

00:58:02.135 --> 00:58:06.875
And how did those things work together? And the list goes on and on and on.

00:58:07.035 --> 00:58:13.555
But the bottom line is that maybe we need a more populist ecology to meet this moment.

00:58:14.275 --> 00:58:20.175
And maybe Sunrise is the political organization. and that's where its expertise

00:58:20.175 --> 00:58:24.615
should be, or maybe it's somewhere else, but it's probably not big enough and

00:58:24.615 --> 00:58:28.335
it probably doesn't have enough expertise to do it all.

00:58:28.495 --> 00:58:35.895
And so I'm really interested to see how Sunrise will collaborate with other

00:58:35.895 --> 00:58:40.155
organizations and other demographics of people that isn't just, you know, youth,

00:58:40.275 --> 00:58:44.055
but as other constituency groups that have a stake in combating the climate

00:58:44.055 --> 00:58:47.195
crisis in an equitable and just way as we move into the

00:58:47.515 --> 00:58:50.935
sort of next political era in America and this next era of.

00:58:52.699 --> 00:58:56.459
Yeah, dealing with climate disaster as it intensifies. Right. Nina.

00:58:57.419 --> 00:59:02.099
Okay. So it's killing me because we've actually run to our end time,

00:59:02.159 --> 00:59:05.979
but Paul and I both, like we have many, many, many more things we want to ask you.

00:59:05.999 --> 00:59:10.439
I'm going to ask you, I'm going to call it one question, but it isn't, it's really several.

00:59:11.619 --> 00:59:15.759
But because you've just raised something that is hugely important, right?

00:59:15.839 --> 00:59:19.139
You're, you're now talking about the need to collaborate with other organizations.

00:59:19.139 --> 00:59:23.279
Organizations, what I'm going to ask you about is, again, on trust.

00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:27.319
And it's on how you think.

00:59:29.379 --> 00:59:34.579
Trust in organizational culture, right, within the Sunrise Movement.

00:59:34.659 --> 00:59:39.079
How do you build that trust within the movement?

00:59:39.659 --> 00:59:45.919
What is it that you do intentionally to create, to foster that trust?

00:59:45.919 --> 00:59:49.559
So that's part one of my single question.

00:59:50.199 --> 00:59:55.719
And then if we're talking about collaborating with other organizations,

00:59:56.419 --> 01:00:02.559
of course, the real possibility is that you become competitive in a way with

01:00:02.559 --> 01:00:06.759
these other organizations because they might not have exactly the same goals, right? Right.

01:00:06.819 --> 01:00:12.599
So how could you take this sense of trust that you're building and you're building,

01:00:12.679 --> 01:00:18.839
by the way, within an organization that has a temporary membership because people

01:00:18.839 --> 01:00:22.039
are turning over because you age out of. Right.

01:00:22.839 --> 01:00:30.319
And so how do you build it within and then how could you see building this trust

01:00:30.319 --> 01:00:36.739
relationship so that your interaction with these other organizations remains

01:00:36.739 --> 01:00:40.999
collaborative rather than becoming a little bit competitive? Right.

01:00:42.311 --> 01:00:47.371
Sorry, that really wasn't a fair number of questions that I'm calling one.

01:00:48.771 --> 01:00:53.551
No, you're fine. I will do my best to answer them concisely.

01:00:53.651 --> 01:00:57.231
And I think they're really good, good questions.

01:00:58.011 --> 01:01:00.711
So to your first question, what do you do to build trust individually?

01:01:00.971 --> 01:01:02.511
I want to paint you guys a picture, actually.

01:01:03.251 --> 01:01:06.531
Let's go back to summer of 2019.

01:01:07.151 --> 01:01:12.871
And I was at my first ever Sunrise training in person. And it was the Midwest summit.

01:01:12.971 --> 01:01:16.531
So people from all over the Midwest had come to be trained by national trainers.

01:01:16.611 --> 01:01:22.011
And we were in this movie theater in Detroit, this very retro movie theater.

01:01:22.171 --> 01:01:26.531
Everyone was sort of sleeping on sleeping bags on the floor and eating,

01:01:26.571 --> 01:01:30.731
you know, bagels and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for lunch.

01:01:30.731 --> 01:01:36.171
Lounge and, you know, sitting in the movie theater seat and watching slideshows

01:01:36.171 --> 01:01:41.811
and trainers, you know, training all day. It was hot.

01:01:42.831 --> 01:01:46.671
And, you know, there were big ideas that we were grappling with.

01:01:46.831 --> 01:01:50.411
And, you know, the movement's executive director was there, our organizing director was there.

01:01:50.431 --> 01:01:53.531
Many of the sort of highest ranking national staff people were there.

01:01:53.731 --> 01:01:55.571
I had been in the movement for just a couple months.

01:01:55.851 --> 01:01:59.611
And I remember thinking at that moment in time, there should be more high schoolers

01:01:59.611 --> 01:02:01.031
here. There should be more teenagers here.

01:02:01.351 --> 01:02:07.731
And, you know, I was able to just talk to Varshney, our executive director,

01:02:07.751 --> 01:02:09.831
about that in that moment. I'd never met her before.

01:02:11.511 --> 01:02:15.011
She, you know, was in town for just a couple days. She had many,

01:02:15.091 --> 01:02:19.371
many closer, close friends, closer friends, certainly than me at that event.

01:02:20.451 --> 01:02:23.791
But she just sat down and we just talked about it. And I think that is,

01:02:23.811 --> 01:02:28.311
you know, that kind of gathering where you're all, you don't know each other,

01:02:28.411 --> 01:02:31.431
but you're trusting each other with things like preparing each other's meals,

01:02:31.491 --> 01:02:34.371
or you're sleeping in the same room as people you don't know,

01:02:34.431 --> 01:02:35.991
because you, you share values.

01:02:36.091 --> 01:02:38.831
And you're like, well, I trust that this is going to go okay.

01:02:38.951 --> 01:02:41.451
And I trust that there are systems in place to support me if it doesn't.

01:02:42.531 --> 01:02:46.551
It's huge for like, collectively building trust. And then I think that,

01:02:46.591 --> 01:02:49.871
you know, that act that kind of access to the movement's top leaders,

01:02:49.971 --> 01:02:54.291
for someone like me, who, you know, had been around for a couple months,

01:02:54.391 --> 01:02:57.131
and had a lot to to learn again this is

01:02:57.131 --> 01:02:59.871
my first training um really made me

01:02:59.871 --> 01:03:02.891
trust the national organization more as a local organizer this

01:03:02.891 --> 01:03:05.951
is before i really started nationally holding a

01:03:05.951 --> 01:03:11.931
national role so um yeah there's like on the individual level like those kinds

01:03:11.931 --> 01:03:15.351
of gatherings and that kind of those kinds of practices and that kind of culture

01:03:15.351 --> 01:03:21.031
i think really helps build trust um both among local organizers and with national

01:03:21.031 --> 01:03:24.651
organizers and then in terms of this idea of like.

01:03:25.801 --> 01:03:29.521
How do you avoid competing with other organizations in the movement ecology?

01:03:29.921 --> 01:03:33.581
One thing that's been interesting to see is that as people have aged out of

01:03:33.581 --> 01:03:39.801
Sunrise, they've joined other what we call movement adjacent endeavors.

01:03:40.021 --> 01:03:44.541
So maybe that's like working for a policy think tank that is,

01:03:44.541 --> 01:03:48.881
you know, helping to push out what the Green New Deal looks like in practice.

01:03:48.881 --> 01:03:52.961
Maybe that's working for a polling firm, like, for example, Data for Progress,

01:03:53.241 --> 01:03:57.401
which does a lot of the polling that summarizes references as we craft campaign

01:03:57.401 --> 01:03:59.621
plans or as we write press releases, etc.

01:04:00.781 --> 01:04:04.101
Maybe it's working for a firm like New Deal Strategies, which helps us with

01:04:04.101 --> 01:04:09.401
our communication, helps to train our spokespeople, etc., etc. et cetera.

01:04:10.281 --> 01:04:16.741
Maybe it's even getting, you know, you know, an academic job where you're studying

01:04:16.741 --> 01:04:19.841
implementation of ideas in, in the Green New Deal.

01:04:20.881 --> 01:04:25.941
Or maybe it's working at a legal practice that's, you know, ready to defend

01:04:25.941 --> 01:04:28.661
pro bono people who face legal consequences for protesting.

01:04:29.881 --> 01:04:33.301
Whatever it might be, there are so many movement adjacent roles and there are

01:04:33.301 --> 01:04:37.481
also movement organizations where, you know, it's not, it's not all about youth, right?

01:04:37.541 --> 01:04:43.261
Like I've learned so much from Indigenous elders who are on the front lines

01:04:43.261 --> 01:04:47.181
and, you know, Indigenous water protectors who are much older than me and have

01:04:47.181 --> 01:04:48.261
so much wisdom to impart.

01:04:49.501 --> 01:04:53.761
And so, yeah, sort of like, you know, movement veterans can still be really

01:04:53.761 --> 01:04:56.721
critical to crafting strategy.

01:04:57.041 --> 01:05:01.861
And so I think one way of avoiding that sort of competition is to have a movement

01:05:01.861 --> 01:05:05.441
ecology where the relationships still exist, even if they're not no longer within

01:05:05.441 --> 01:05:09.101
the same organization, but rather across different organizations or, um,

01:05:09.321 --> 01:05:12.081
you know, across slightly different, um.

01:05:13.919 --> 01:05:22.319
Pieces of the movement's broader aim. So Nina, I'm really impressed with how

01:05:22.319 --> 01:05:27.819
you speak about the Sunrise Movement with a lot of confidence and poise.

01:05:27.939 --> 01:05:34.439
And as if you really got the theory fully mastered, right?

01:05:34.519 --> 01:05:38.259
And that's impressive. it so i obviously

01:05:38.259 --> 01:05:41.939
will challenge to to shake that theory a little bit and

01:05:41.939 --> 01:05:44.799
see you know how stable that really

01:05:44.799 --> 01:05:47.799
is um one issue that that comes

01:05:47.799 --> 01:05:54.039
up through through our discussion now is the duality in the movement as you

01:05:54.039 --> 01:05:58.259
also sketched that earlier we spoke about potential conflict that you have your

01:05:58.259 --> 01:06:05.099
grassroots nodes right and you also describe that as let's say with a biological ecological metaphor.

01:06:05.599 --> 01:06:12.599
We think about the organization as an organic whole, which would imply there's no central ordination.

01:06:12.999 --> 01:06:18.199
Yet, you do have a central master node in Washington.

01:06:18.619 --> 01:06:23.699
When we spoke about possible conflicts, it was also between these levels of

01:06:23.699 --> 01:06:26.719
organization having different objectives, different understanding,

01:06:26.979 --> 01:06:28.079
different commitments and responsibilities.

01:06:29.399 --> 01:06:35.059
So that means it's really fair then to speak of the organization in these organic terms.

01:06:35.199 --> 01:06:39.499
I know it sounds nice, and it fits very well with the ideas about the Green New Deal.

01:06:39.719 --> 01:06:43.659
But you could also say, well, actually, it's a very centrally guided political

01:06:43.659 --> 01:06:50.879
organization who just needs grassroots to actually exert its political power.

01:06:54.411 --> 01:06:59.271
Yeah, I don't run the pushback at all. And I, you know, it's funny,

01:06:59.331 --> 01:07:03.151
like I have yet to take my first intro to political theory classes in college,

01:07:03.331 --> 01:07:04.931
you know, that's that'll come in a couple weeks.

01:07:04.931 --> 01:07:10.291
Um, but I would say, I would say the,

01:07:10.331 --> 01:07:16.111
the, the reason I don't think it is entirely true that it's,

01:07:16.111 --> 01:07:19.851
you know, a centralized political organization that has a grassroots to back

01:07:19.851 --> 01:07:26.491
its aim is because the grassroots increasingly, but always has played a big

01:07:26.491 --> 01:07:30.571
role in defining the national organization's path forward. word.

01:07:31.771 --> 01:07:42.551
And, you know, I think it is clear that if the national organization makes too

01:07:42.551 --> 01:07:45.371
far a step without consulting the grassroots,

01:07:45.631 --> 01:07:48.131
it will not have the grassroots to back it anymore.

01:07:48.451 --> 01:07:51.891
Hubs will change their name and they'll keep organizing for the same principles,

01:07:51.971 --> 01:07:56.991
same sets of values in their communities without having any affiliation to Sunrise National.

01:07:56.991 --> 01:08:00.711
I think Sunrise National is very aware that they are accountable to this network

01:08:00.711 --> 01:08:04.691
and there are mutual benefits to being in this relationship together,

01:08:04.811 --> 01:08:05.911
but they don't have to be.

01:08:06.051 --> 01:08:09.791
Hubs can organize their communities without Sunrise National's influence.

01:08:10.191 --> 01:08:15.971
And Sunrise National could be a lobbying organization or have some other purpose

01:08:15.971 --> 01:08:18.071
that's not backed by grassroots.

01:08:18.251 --> 01:08:21.391
But as of right now, they're not.

01:08:22.012 --> 01:08:26.992
Generally both feel that there's some benefit to being intertwined in the way that they are.

01:08:27.152 --> 01:08:33.172
But so I do think there's a sense of accountability to the grassroots that requires

01:08:33.172 --> 01:08:35.992
consultation and requires that.

01:08:36.352 --> 01:08:44.272
Right. I get it. That's very good. But now, the other side of the story is also

01:08:44.272 --> 01:08:46.012
how do we deal with the commons?

01:08:46.052 --> 01:08:51.272
So there is, let's say, the common good in this case, and we speak of ecological

01:08:51.272 --> 01:08:56.372
common good and avoiding climate catastrophe.

01:08:57.392 --> 01:09:01.992
On the other hand, we also see many examples around us where this common good

01:09:01.992 --> 01:09:07.352
is then again instrumentalized by others, as for instance, recently was put

01:09:07.352 --> 01:09:10.172
forward in this seaspiracy documentary, for instance,

01:09:10.332 --> 01:09:16.592
on how the organizations that are supposed to certify that fish that's salt

01:09:16.592 --> 01:09:21.512
in the supermarket is caught in an ecological sustainable way are actually in

01:09:21.512 --> 01:09:26.352
cahoots with the fishing industry and in that sense have instrumentalized that

01:09:26.352 --> 01:09:29.752
common of ecological, in this case, fishing.

01:09:30.572 --> 01:09:34.412
So how do you see that for these ecological concerns?

01:09:34.592 --> 01:09:39.972
So how much of a risk do you see there is for this kind of instrumentalization

01:09:39.972 --> 01:09:47.432
of this common interest in sustainability and avoidance of climate collapse.

01:09:49.432 --> 01:09:52.712
LYN ALDEN BROOKS- Can you restate the risk you are referring to?

01:09:53.912 --> 01:09:57.472
PETER DIAMANDIS- Well, I can start any movement and collect money and say,

01:09:57.572 --> 01:09:58.992
oh, we're going to save the planet.

01:09:59.252 --> 01:10:01.932
Please give me all your money. I'm going to save the planet.

01:10:02.692 --> 01:10:07.352
Now I have instrumentalized the comment. As long as I'm a slick communicator,

01:10:07.392 --> 01:10:08.932
I'm sure I'm going to be successful with it.

01:10:11.312 --> 01:10:16.912
Right so you're asking like what are the yeah what's ensuring that this,

01:10:17.652 --> 01:10:21.912
yeah use of resources is efficient accountable and doing what it says it's going

01:10:21.912 --> 01:10:27.072
to do well you are competing as as the sunrise movement you could argue you

01:10:27.072 --> 01:10:31.552
have an ideological objective you have different mechanisms in place to assure

01:10:31.552 --> 01:10:35.812
that you adhere to these ideals in a proper and ethical way.

01:10:36.052 --> 01:10:41.712
However, you might have competing organizations in that same space who have

01:10:41.712 --> 01:10:44.872
instrumentalized that comments for, let's say, personal gain.

01:10:45.712 --> 01:10:52.232
Do you see that development as a risk of the current interest that people have

01:10:52.232 --> 01:10:55.852
in our society in realizing something like a green,

01:10:57.732 --> 01:11:03.312
Even the oil industry is jumping on it, we're green.

01:11:04.972 --> 01:11:07.132
How do you deal with that risk?

01:11:13.370 --> 01:11:18.670
You know, I think there, so I think part of it is drawing a distinction,

01:11:18.890 --> 01:11:21.730
like what lies within the movement ecology and what does not.

01:11:22.290 --> 01:11:26.790
And I think if you ask most sunrisers, they would say, you know,

01:11:26.810 --> 01:11:33.710
something like a company like Exxon or Shell is not, you know,

01:11:33.710 --> 01:11:36.830
in the movement ecology in the sense of like working towards the same goal.

01:11:39.390 --> 01:11:43.650
Even if they may say that they are. And there are definitely people who would

01:11:43.650 --> 01:11:46.550
disagree with that, like people outside of Sunrise, maybe even some people in

01:11:46.550 --> 01:11:49.790
Sunrise, who would say, well, if they want to join us, let them join us.

01:11:49.990 --> 01:11:53.150
And that's, you know, an ideological debate that people can have among themselves.

01:11:53.450 --> 01:12:03.290
But drawing the distinction, you know, between who is our teammate and who's not is one thing.

01:12:03.290 --> 01:12:11.090
And then I think for the second piece of within the movement,

01:12:11.510 --> 01:12:21.410
I am of the belief that most of the organizations within the movement.

01:12:23.370 --> 01:12:31.290
If they are successful, if they have an engaged base, it's because they're offering something.

01:12:31.290 --> 01:12:35.330
And maybe with a more established sort of big green organization,

01:12:35.550 --> 01:12:40.050
that something is lending credibility to younger activists'

01:12:40.330 --> 01:12:51.310
ideas or having access to particular political leaders who might not meet with younger activists.

01:12:51.310 --> 01:12:58.270
But there's something that each organization can bring to the others,

01:12:58.370 --> 01:13:03.750
even if they are competitors or even if, you know, one has more resource,

01:13:03.890 --> 01:13:06.850
more financial resources than the others.

01:13:06.910 --> 01:13:09.350
I don't know if I'm quite getting at your question, though. But but,

01:13:09.470 --> 01:13:15.250
yeah, I would say recognizing the particular thing that each organization can

01:13:15.250 --> 01:13:19.870
offer to the others and then taking advantage of that as a broader movement.

01:13:20.350 --> 01:13:23.010
Feel free to ask follow-up if I haven't quite gotten there. Well,

01:13:23.010 --> 01:13:26.070
maybe to sharpen it, I can change it also a little bit.

01:13:26.190 --> 01:13:29.230
Like, for instance, you could say, well, we have to go for solar power.

01:13:30.190 --> 01:13:35.870
However, in the meantime, we also know that China is the main supplier of the

01:13:35.870 --> 01:13:40.270
components that we need to largely deploy solar power systems.

01:13:40.270 --> 01:13:43.830
So that would mean as the more you push for your Green Deal,

01:13:44.030 --> 01:13:50.430
the more, in some sense, you also support, in that sense, a country and an economy

01:13:50.430 --> 01:13:52.650
that's not necessarily adhering to all your values.

01:13:53.750 --> 01:13:59.810
So how do you deal with these kinds of potential conflicts in the ideological

01:13:59.810 --> 01:14:02.290
objectives that you have?

01:14:06.861 --> 01:14:14.161
Yeah. I think it's a lot of inter-movement dialogue.

01:14:14.381 --> 01:14:19.761
I think it's a lot of, like, you know, recognition that the systems that we

01:14:19.761 --> 01:14:22.961
operate under are actually pretty,

01:14:23.001 --> 01:14:26.781
pretty far from being aligned with the values that our members hold.

01:14:26.781 --> 01:14:33.661
And so that requires our members to be in conversation with each other all the time about,

01:14:33.821 --> 01:14:42.681
you know, what is the least harmful or most promising path forward,

01:14:42.741 --> 01:14:47.981
given the constraints of the world we live in and the systems under which it operates.

01:14:48.401 --> 01:14:53.001
And there is no, I mean, at least in my mind, there is no right answer.

01:14:53.021 --> 01:14:56.421
There's no way out of those ideological dilemmas.

01:14:58.741 --> 01:15:06.621
But we can move forward in ways that more people feel good about or that more

01:15:06.621 --> 01:15:12.081
minds have sort of thought about and thought of as sound if we talk to each other.

01:15:12.541 --> 01:15:15.281
So you have that communication here, which I understand.

01:15:15.661 --> 01:15:21.181
Now, to finish it up, I have two questions for you. So I think I can guess the

01:15:21.181 --> 01:15:23.681
answer to the first one, but I'm not going to say it.

01:15:24.461 --> 01:15:30.761
So do you believe that humans on this planet, on the global scale,

01:15:30.861 --> 01:15:35.621
will be able to develop and maintain sustainable collaboration?

01:15:45.101 --> 01:15:49.021
I think, you know, do I believe we will?

01:15:49.401 --> 01:15:53.261
I don't know if I can say with confidence that we will, but do I believe we can?

01:15:53.681 --> 01:15:56.841
I definitely think we can. Okay.

01:15:58.301 --> 01:16:02.641
And we will? You're not convinced whether we will. You're not sure about that?

01:16:03.961 --> 01:16:06.901
I'm not sure. But I definitely think we can.

01:16:07.361 --> 01:16:11.641
But then the last question is, if I give you a magic wand, right,

01:16:11.721 --> 01:16:16.861
and you can change anything you want about humans, right, their genome,

01:16:17.221 --> 01:16:22.081
their metabolome, their brain, anything you want, What's the one thing you would

01:16:22.081 --> 01:16:25.761
change in order that they will be able to collaborate?

01:16:30.556 --> 01:16:40.116
Um um i wish i had more eloquent terminology to to refer to this um but i think um,

01:16:41.236 --> 01:16:49.736
i would make it to that they're not operating from a scarcity mindset and instead you know,

01:16:50.616 --> 01:16:58.136
have faith in in abundance and because i just think that um you know both in

01:16:58.136 --> 01:17:00.796
a movement context experts, like, oh, there's only so much recognition,

01:17:01.036 --> 01:17:05.016
success, and credit that can be distributed among the movement's organizations

01:17:05.016 --> 01:17:08.176
that creates competition and hinders collaboration.

01:17:10.416 --> 01:17:15.796
Between organizations, between people, whatever. But also at the much bigger scale, you know,

01:17:16.536 --> 01:17:20.376
in places like Appalachia, like Bihar, where my family's from,

01:17:20.556 --> 01:17:24.216
it's like, you know, when flooding incomes, when fire strikes,

01:17:24.376 --> 01:17:28.376
are people going to come together across socioeconomic divides,

01:17:28.736 --> 01:17:33.756
race divides, gender divides, whatever, and help each other out and trust that

01:17:33.756 --> 01:17:39.436
there can be enough food, enough clean water, enough clean air, enough space,

01:17:39.676 --> 01:17:43.956
enough shelter for everyone to thrive if they lean on each other?

01:17:44.096 --> 01:17:48.936
Or are people going to close themselves off, divide along these lines of race,

01:17:49.016 --> 01:17:49.896
class, gender, whatever,

01:17:50.996 --> 01:17:55.616
and try to protect what's theirs and not help their neighbors,

01:17:56.356 --> 01:18:00.036
both at the neighborhood level, but also at the international level,

01:18:00.196 --> 01:18:01.556
right? Like our country's going to help.

01:18:01.636 --> 01:18:05.416
So that's what I would change is I would make it, and of course that requires

01:18:05.416 --> 01:18:08.576
systems change too, but make it so that instead of operating from a place of

01:18:08.576 --> 01:18:12.056
scarcity, we're operating from a place of abundance.

01:18:12.716 --> 01:18:16.176
Very good. Nina Agrawal-Aydin, thank you very much for this conversation.

01:18:16.176 --> 01:18:20.176
Hi, you listened to one of our podcasts in the series on collaboration,

01:18:20.636 --> 01:18:24.556
produced by the Ernst Trommel Forum and the Convergent Science Network.

01:18:25.276 --> 01:18:28.236
You can find more episodes on our website.