WEBVTT 00:00:04.297 --> 00:00:08.577 Hi, I'm Paul Verschoor, and together with my colleague Ferdinand from Siemens, 00:00:08.697 --> 00:00:13.157 we are speaking today with Ilona Schmiel about collaboration in the arts. 00:00:13.757 --> 00:00:17.997 Ilona trained as an opera singer and is the executive and artistic director 00:00:17.997 --> 00:00:19.657 of the Tonehalle in Zurich. 00:00:19.877 --> 00:00:28.797 So I'm Paul Verschoor with the Conversion Science Network with my colleague Ferdinand Siemens. 00:00:28.797 --> 00:00:36.217 And we're speaking with Ilona Schmiel, who is the director of the Tonehalle 00:00:36.217 --> 00:00:39.897 in Zurich, on the topic of collaboration. 00:00:40.997 --> 00:00:45.557 But maybe to start, Ilona, it would be very, very useful if you give us a little 00:00:45.557 --> 00:00:49.997 bit of a sketch of your background and how you ended up in the role that you have today. 00:00:51.177 --> 00:00:55.937 Yes. Hello to everyone at first, and I'm very happy being part of this podcast 00:00:55.937 --> 00:01:00.517 series. and of course I would love to give you a short introduction. 00:01:00.897 --> 00:01:04.437 I was trained as a musician, as an opera singer. 00:01:04.617 --> 00:01:10.057 I failed with my voice so I studied then becoming a teacher. 00:01:10.257 --> 00:01:15.597 I didn't become a teacher because I was not someone who was happy with the system 00:01:15.597 --> 00:01:17.877 of education in Germany and worldwide. 00:01:18.037 --> 00:01:24.217 I studied also ancient languages, Latin, Greek and cultural and media management 00:01:24.217 --> 00:01:32.797 And then my first part was as an organizer in the staff of the Donau Eschinger Musiktage in 1993, 00:01:33.257 --> 00:01:39.977 afterwards at the Olympic Festival Lillehammer for the opening ceremony during Olympic Winter Games. 00:01:39.977 --> 00:01:48.417 And then I went to Italy for the Arena di Verona productions and then I make a short cut. 00:01:48.597 --> 00:01:56.137 My first bigger position was then from 1998 in the concert hall in Bremen, Die Glocke. 00:01:56.257 --> 00:01:59.277 I was the artistic and managing director there. 00:01:59.417 --> 00:02:04.977 The youngest ones in Germany were 30 years old and as a woman it was really 00:02:04.977 --> 00:02:06.057 a surprise for everyone. 00:02:06.057 --> 00:02:10.957 So after four and a half years, I took over the Beethoven Fest in Bonn, 00:02:10.957 --> 00:02:18.477 and there I was the intendant and artistic director, so editing 10 pieces. 00:02:19.907 --> 00:02:28.927 Beethoven fests over 11 years and after that i got really in a very very interesting offer. 00:02:30.707 --> 00:02:38.047 Moving to zurich since august 2014 i'm now artistic and executive director of the tonale society, 00:02:39.107 --> 00:02:47.187 and we are running the tonale orchestra which was founded in 1868 with 104 musicians 00:02:47.187 --> 00:02:51.547 actually It's one of the oldest orchestras in Switzerland and definitely the 00:02:51.547 --> 00:02:53.087 top orchestra of Switzerland, 00:02:53.387 --> 00:02:59.107 the ambassador of Switzerland for great symphonic music. And we are also running the Concert Hall. 00:03:00.747 --> 00:03:04.607 Okay, well, that's quite a career that you had. 00:03:04.727 --> 00:03:09.527 Who would have thought, I guess, when you started as a singer? 00:03:09.527 --> 00:03:14.647 In our case, we really would like to understand the notion of collaboration, 00:03:15.007 --> 00:03:18.647 which can mean very many different things for different people. 00:03:19.147 --> 00:03:23.507 And in some sense, you have been exposed to different aspects of collaboration 00:03:23.507 --> 00:03:26.267 in this more artistic domain in which you're active. 00:03:26.407 --> 00:03:29.687 So how would you define collaboration? 00:03:31.827 --> 00:03:37.447 Collaboration is, for me, finding a way, bringing together the best ideas, 00:03:37.767 --> 00:03:46.867 empowering people that they can really get a sense of common objectives and 00:03:46.867 --> 00:03:54.347 trying to make sure that everything is possible, that you can have success, 00:03:54.587 --> 00:03:57.387 but that you can fail at the same time. 00:03:58.747 --> 00:04:02.067 And then, what do you see as the defining features? 00:04:02.107 --> 00:04:10.607 So if you talk about collaboration, what do you see as the defining features of collaboration? 00:04:12.027 --> 00:04:14.247 In an artistic level, it means quality. 00:04:15.361 --> 00:04:20.881 In a level dealing with collaboration in the organization, in the management, 00:04:20.901 --> 00:04:26.501 it means how we can make sure that we achieve the common objectives. 00:04:26.661 --> 00:04:29.641 What is the way? What are the steps behind that? 00:04:30.021 --> 00:04:35.521 And if we are talking about collaborations with people in other countries, 00:04:35.781 --> 00:04:38.721 then we have to define what is our mindset? 00:04:38.761 --> 00:04:44.821 What's the cultural background and how can we come together in the sense of communication? 00:04:45.801 --> 00:04:49.061 But so but you describe different aspects 00:04:49.061 --> 00:04:51.821 to also the implementation of it right but for 00:04:51.821 --> 00:04:55.341 instance in your definition you you also mentioned 00:04:55.341 --> 00:04:58.241 this idea of objective yeah so 00:04:58.241 --> 00:05:01.541 common objective do is that for you a central feature 00:05:01.541 --> 00:05:06.881 of of the collaborative projects that that you know about that you're experienced 00:05:06.881 --> 00:05:13.561 with it is uh the first thing what we have to define if we don't have that We 00:05:13.561 --> 00:05:18.421 are talking around and we're just then chatting, 00:05:18.541 --> 00:05:21.321 but we will never reach really a result. 00:05:21.621 --> 00:05:25.701 And if you think in an artistic view, you have to bring together, 00:05:25.761 --> 00:05:27.301 for example, 104 musicians. 00:05:27.741 --> 00:05:32.361 They have a clear structure, they have a clear hierarchy, and they have also 00:05:32.361 --> 00:05:37.481 clear vision because there is a chief conductor like Pavel Yevi at the moment 00:05:37.481 --> 00:05:42.501 since 1920, who is one of the really top conductors. 00:05:42.501 --> 00:05:47.741 But, for example, they have a clear vision and this vision from the leading 00:05:47.741 --> 00:05:50.781 figure is being transferred to the musicians. 00:05:51.241 --> 00:05:57.821 If you have to interpret that or to translate that to the management team, 00:05:57.981 --> 00:06:03.901 then this means that we have the same eye level of quality of having the same vision. 00:06:03.901 --> 00:06:11.921 And we have to find a way to interpretate in our own way the steps to reach 00:06:11.921 --> 00:06:12.961 these common objectives. 00:06:13.661 --> 00:06:19.041 But now this is interesting, right? Because if you describe the orchestra, 00:06:19.241 --> 00:06:24.161 in some sense, orchestras are also built in a very specific Western musical 00:06:24.161 --> 00:06:28.101 tradition, which is actually very hierarchical, right? 00:06:28.101 --> 00:06:31.221 And so in that sense, you could say it's also built as a hierarchy, 00:06:31.361 --> 00:06:37.281 in some sense, to also reduce the degrees of freedom in the collaborative process. 00:06:38.181 --> 00:06:44.541 In some sense, that some of the participants are not necessarily active collaborators anymore. 00:06:44.721 --> 00:06:48.881 They're more executing a task, right? 00:06:48.921 --> 00:06:54.121 There are these extremes in the process. process and so so so how how should 00:06:54.121 --> 00:06:57.801 we balance that in order to get the quality of collaboration. 00:06:58.781 --> 00:07:04.481 That you that you want and you need you always need to find this balance that 00:07:04.481 --> 00:07:06.741 they have the most freedom they can get out of it, 00:07:07.709 --> 00:07:12.389 If they don't have it, if they are only executing, then you never will reach 00:07:12.389 --> 00:07:15.889 these very, very important highest quality. 00:07:16.869 --> 00:07:20.729 Yeah, but if you have a big orchestra, like with the numbers you just mentioned, 00:07:21.009 --> 00:07:23.109 there is also a structure to that. 00:07:23.189 --> 00:07:29.049 So you want to make sure your conductor has maximum freedom in sort of developing 00:07:29.049 --> 00:07:35.229 the piece, even though also the conductor works within the envelope of a composed piece already. 00:07:35.229 --> 00:07:41.789 But then when it moves down into the orchestra, the freedom that you give to 00:07:41.789 --> 00:07:44.189 the participants becomes more and more controlled. 00:07:45.069 --> 00:07:51.409 So how would you scale that? That's not totally the aspect how Pavel, 00:07:51.529 --> 00:07:55.969 for example, conducts. Because when he's giving a concert, it's definitely that 00:07:55.969 --> 00:07:59.389 every musician has to be very, very careful, very attentive. 00:07:59.529 --> 00:08:05.769 Because every night something new happens. And it happens because there is something 00:08:05.769 --> 00:08:07.209 coming out of the orchestra, 00:08:07.369 --> 00:08:11.269 for example, from the oboe soloist, where he feels there's tonoid, 00:08:11.329 --> 00:08:16.609 another tempo, there's a rubato, and he is then guiding this person and the 00:08:16.609 --> 00:08:18.109 whole orchestra through that process. 00:08:18.369 --> 00:08:25.009 And it is more an exchange in the way of collaboration and communication, 00:08:25.389 --> 00:08:31.309 which at the end empowers everyone for that highest level. Right. 00:08:31.489 --> 00:08:34.809 But there's an interesting tension now, right? 00:08:34.829 --> 00:08:37.909 Because on the one hand, there's an envelope of interaction, 00:08:38.169 --> 00:08:39.549 which could be the composed piece. 00:08:39.949 --> 00:08:44.289 But then within that envelope, there's movement, and that movement is structured 00:08:44.289 --> 00:08:46.709 also along hierarchical lines. 00:08:47.369 --> 00:08:52.249 So at what point does that stop to be collaboration? 00:08:55.106 --> 00:08:59.946 At the end, there's a clear bar, there's a clear timing, and there's a clear final. 00:09:00.386 --> 00:09:07.386 Definitely, it stops. And there are also in between some aspects of no-goes. 00:09:07.526 --> 00:09:12.266 And these little no-goes, they are defined during the rehearsal process, 00:09:12.666 --> 00:09:18.166 where the way, how we interpretate something is done. 00:09:18.346 --> 00:09:22.186 And then at the end, the result is coming up in the concert. 00:09:22.186 --> 00:09:25.026 Through it but it's a it's a different process if 00:09:25.026 --> 00:09:29.146 you compare it with the management then these 00:09:29.146 --> 00:09:32.066 are totally different aspects how we achieve 00:09:32.066 --> 00:09:35.206 goals but there's so what 00:09:35.206 --> 00:09:40.366 you sketch here is also this transition from a very deliberate and conscious 00:09:40.366 --> 00:09:47.246 process to a more habitual collective process right so initially there's a conscious 00:09:47.246 --> 00:09:51.906 searching for how all the pieces might fit together all the What pieces are 00:09:51.906 --> 00:09:54.326 the different actors in that context? 00:09:55.466 --> 00:10:03.706 But through the rehearsal process, you start to make what was deliberate initially more habitual. 00:10:03.806 --> 00:10:07.726 So it can be actually performed in a comprehensive way. 00:10:07.806 --> 00:10:12.306 There's this transition point from the deliberation to the habit execution. 00:10:12.926 --> 00:10:21.386 So how do you value that in the collaborative process? So when do you say, 00:10:21.466 --> 00:10:23.886 well, this is still collaboration and this is execution? 00:10:24.226 --> 00:10:28.466 Or would you capture it all under that same notion of the orchestra members 00:10:28.466 --> 00:10:32.426 are collaborating with the conductor to deliver the piece? 00:10:33.186 --> 00:10:38.286 I would say it with your last sentence. They are together, they are collaborating 00:10:38.286 --> 00:10:44.406 at any time, but they are offering different qualities, different ideas, 00:10:45.066 --> 00:10:46.766 musical ideas, and they are collaborating. 00:10:47.401 --> 00:10:53.661 During different rehearsal aspects. Right. And I think the huge ability of great 00:10:53.661 --> 00:10:59.041 conductors is to work with these offering musical ideas. 00:10:59.861 --> 00:11:07.161 If it's just a conductor who is doing his own stuff, then he or she would never 00:11:07.161 --> 00:11:08.841 react to that in that way. 00:11:09.581 --> 00:11:14.241 Right. And on the highest level of quality, this is one of the secrets. 00:11:14.241 --> 00:11:19.281 When there are then at the end these fantastic moments where you never experienced 00:11:19.281 --> 00:11:22.081 before what you could get out of it. And then it's unique. 00:11:22.261 --> 00:11:27.641 But this only happens if you have a very, very strong collaborative idea, 00:11:27.901 --> 00:11:30.301 a very strong collaboration working process. 00:11:30.701 --> 00:11:35.121 And then at the end, in the concert, there's a certain freedom. Right. 00:11:36.341 --> 00:11:40.581 But this is really very interesting. But now, 00:11:40.661 --> 00:11:45.981 in some sense, you could also argue, So you also link the notion of the aesthetical 00:11:45.981 --> 00:11:52.121 quality to that sort of collaborative aspect of the performance, 00:11:52.261 --> 00:11:57.761 which also would give it a quality of being, let's say, creative and surprising. 00:11:58.821 --> 00:12:02.741 But on the other hand, you could also, but maybe that can only be detected by 00:12:02.741 --> 00:12:07.801 the real experts. Maybe if I listened to this performance for the first time, 00:12:07.961 --> 00:12:12.721 I would not be able to pick up these subtle variations, right? 00:12:12.821 --> 00:12:15.301 So what's the resolution here? 00:12:16.841 --> 00:12:22.521 I won't agree about that. Because if it's a very, very single concert, 00:12:22.641 --> 00:12:26.101 which has a huge impact and which is unique, 00:12:26.301 --> 00:12:30.781 I'm absolutely sure that even a person who has never attended a concert will 00:12:30.781 --> 00:12:34.441 feel that there's something very, very special happening. 00:12:35.701 --> 00:12:43.661 We are speaking about, at the end, about something where we don't have really the right words. 00:12:44.761 --> 00:12:51.181 This is then a magic moment which you can only have in the live concert situation 00:12:51.181 --> 00:12:56.001 you will never have that for example at the moment in a streaming concert. 00:12:57.641 --> 00:13:04.381 Podcast download whatever so these technical devices they help us but the real 00:13:04.381 --> 00:13:08.981 experience about that moment and about this special collaboration in that moment 00:13:08.981 --> 00:13:13.121 is only something which you can get in the live concert situation, 00:13:13.661 --> 00:13:17.941 So you're saying our podcast interview will not be an aesthetical highlight of the day. 00:13:20.721 --> 00:13:26.681 It's fine. I'm just kidding. But so that, okay, there are many other sides to 00:13:26.681 --> 00:13:28.401 your experience are extremely interesting. 00:13:28.701 --> 00:13:33.621 But if we stick now to just this aspect of the performance and how it comes 00:13:33.621 --> 00:13:36.961 about, now within the process that you sketched, 00:13:37.688 --> 00:13:42.228 There are, of course, many different characters and personalities that all have 00:13:42.228 --> 00:13:47.608 to be managed carefully to actually play their part constructively. 00:13:47.808 --> 00:13:52.868 So now how does that come in to that process? 00:13:53.168 --> 00:13:57.248 I mentioned earlier with this caricature of the Western musical tradition, 00:13:57.428 --> 00:13:58.648 very hierarchically organized. 00:13:59.548 --> 00:14:02.628 You also make it very clear this is not the full picture. 00:14:02.628 --> 00:14:09.128 But now, in order to keep that structure together, you have to manage 100, 00:14:09.408 --> 00:14:14.788 200 people, maybe even more, who in the end collectively have to produce that piece. 00:14:14.908 --> 00:14:19.288 So how do you manage the actors in that system? 00:14:20.228 --> 00:14:26.508 At first, the education level of all these musicians nowadays is very, very high. 00:14:27.488 --> 00:14:31.748 And the process how they are coming into 00:14:31.748 --> 00:14:34.768 an orchestra how they have 00:14:34.768 --> 00:14:37.728 to go step by step before they are 00:14:37.728 --> 00:14:40.868 arriving in a professional orchestra is a 00:14:40.868 --> 00:14:43.628 very hard process in their education and they 00:14:43.628 --> 00:14:46.348 have to give an audition and during 00:14:46.348 --> 00:14:49.248 this audition they are only having the 00:14:49.248 --> 00:14:52.268 chance to show their ability and their instrumental 00:14:52.268 --> 00:14:55.268 skills they're even not talking with each 00:14:55.268 --> 00:14:59.068 other which is something in the future where I would say it's 00:14:59.068 --> 00:15:02.828 so important to get an idea what is it for 00:15:02.828 --> 00:15:05.728 a person what's kind of personality with whom we 00:15:05.728 --> 00:15:10.548 are being connected afterwards but at the moment it's just an audition and the 00:15:10.548 --> 00:15:14.608 first part of the audition is even behind a curtain so that you have no idea 00:15:14.608 --> 00:15:18.768 who is sitting there who is standing there who is playing you have no idea you 00:15:18.768 --> 00:15:23.888 just listen to the music and the music they have to play these are. 00:15:25.400 --> 00:15:29.480 Pieces, bits of pieces, which they know before, 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:34.220 and this is the most hardest process, so they only show their musical, 00:15:34.380 --> 00:15:40.380 instrumental quality in this very short amount of time, sometimes three to five 00:15:40.380 --> 00:15:43.120 minutes, it's not more, when they have this audition. 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:50.420 They have to put in all their impact all their passion all their roots everything they try to, 00:15:51.160 --> 00:15:56.300 interpretate with their instrument only within this very short amount of time 00:15:56.300 --> 00:16:03.740 and then in the second round or the third round when they get there maybe they are elected they get. 00:16:04.760 --> 00:16:08.700 The possibility to perform with the orchestra and then they are for one year on trial, 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:13.500 and during that year it happens 00:16:13.500 --> 00:16:16.360 that the group it depends a little bit is this a 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:19.240 solo position or is it a group in the first violin 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:25.180 section or double bass section for example so it depends really where is the 00:16:25.180 --> 00:16:31.200 position but during that year not only the sectionals the groups are voting 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:37.920 for that person the whole orchestra at the end is voting if they want to have this person being a 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.080 member of the orchestra and if she or he 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:44.360 gets then definitely the confirmation 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:48.000 that she is elected then they 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.400 are there for life they have a position for life so this is something which 00:16:51.400 --> 00:16:59.120 is a really interesting hard process and it's it's also a question if we change 00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:04.340 that in the future it's the european way of having that process being a member 00:17:04.340 --> 00:17:07.900 but coming back to your question all these, 00:17:08.520 --> 00:17:12.720 aspects where do you come from what have you learned before where are your roots 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:20.000 what's your language very often it's a language issue you seem or it seems to 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:22.620 be that they are understanding each other musically. 00:17:23.905 --> 00:17:28.085 But when they are then rehearsing and speaking with each other, 00:17:28.145 --> 00:17:31.425 they are having totally different mindsets and mentalities. 00:17:32.205 --> 00:17:38.425 And also the question, what are the expectations being today in orchestra musicians? 00:17:38.805 --> 00:17:39.685 They are totally different. 00:17:40.425 --> 00:17:44.385 But Ilona, this is extremely challenging, right? 00:17:44.425 --> 00:17:51.445 Because it also means that if the group dynamic that is existing before a new 00:17:51.445 --> 00:17:53.145 potential member enters, 00:17:53.485 --> 00:18:00.045 that group dynamic could strongly bias the future evolution of an orchestra 00:18:00.045 --> 00:18:05.645 and not necessarily in the direction you might want if you are the artistic 00:18:05.645 --> 00:18:08.225 leader of such an environment. 00:18:08.505 --> 00:18:13.925 So do you think this is a wise process? So the group deciding in this way, 00:18:13.985 --> 00:18:15.625 is it always leading to good outcomes? 00:18:15.945 --> 00:18:20.105 Because you already mentioned that you might have to reconsider that. 00:18:20.265 --> 00:18:24.765 So in a broader perspective, not just for Tonehalle, but in a general perspective, 00:18:25.645 --> 00:18:30.485 do you feel this process is healthy and effective or does it lead to sort of 00:18:30.485 --> 00:18:39.345 a conformity to a group thing that might on the long term not really be a good artistic environment? 00:18:40.365 --> 00:18:45.285 We are talking about the highest quality and we are talking also about a special orchestra sound. 00:18:46.425 --> 00:18:51.845 And what the group knows very very well during the rehearsal processes over 00:18:51.845 --> 00:18:59.305 some months with a new member if the sound and mentality of this person will fit into the group. 00:19:00.645 --> 00:19:05.625 Okay but in your experience have you have you seen this go off the rails this 00:19:05.625 --> 00:19:10.745 process that for instance you know that the artistic leader had a vision on 00:19:10.745 --> 00:19:15.965 on how the orchestra should develop but you saw the group collectively and implicitly 00:19:15.965 --> 00:19:19.565 was sort of moving in a different direction that was almost unstoppable. 00:19:22.485 --> 00:19:27.005 I would say in orchestras with a very high quality, that happens not so often. 00:19:27.565 --> 00:19:32.225 But if you're really in this middle section of quality and positioning, 00:19:32.445 --> 00:19:33.985 that happens very often. 00:19:34.665 --> 00:19:44.605 Because then a group is able to create an own quality. and this not always matches 00:19:44.605 --> 00:19:46.425 with the artistic leaders' visions. 00:19:46.805 --> 00:19:54.365 So in your experience what have been the most dramatic failures of that model of collaboration? 00:19:55.365 --> 00:19:59.005 Like a whole, let's say, high level orchestra actually just fragmenting, 00:20:00.437 --> 00:20:05.377 I think the huge challenge at the moment is to find really leaders, 00:20:05.617 --> 00:20:09.377 leaders for positions, open positions where all over the world, 00:20:09.437 --> 00:20:11.917 for example, a viola leader, section leader. 00:20:12.957 --> 00:20:20.817 We have over the world 10, 15 of the top positions there at the moment auditioning. 00:20:21.097 --> 00:20:27.377 And you have all over the world only a few who are able to take over that position. 00:20:27.377 --> 00:20:33.397 And I think there it is so hard to find the right candidate and to see in the 00:20:33.397 --> 00:20:41.197 way if a group is possible to let in a strong figure, a person with a strong character, 00:20:41.397 --> 00:20:45.837 because this person with a strong character will guide and influence and give 00:20:45.837 --> 00:20:49.197 an impact to the whole group and at the end to the whole orchestra as well. 00:20:49.917 --> 00:20:53.617 I think there is an aspect where we have to be very careful. 00:20:53.617 --> 00:20:56.757 Okay i cannot i cannot um 00:20:56.757 --> 00:20:59.817 decide this process because as an 00:20:59.817 --> 00:21:02.757 artistic and executive director you are 00:21:02.757 --> 00:21:08.877 only involved being part of that you're sometimes trying to give me a sort of 00:21:08.877 --> 00:21:14.537 mediation when when it's going totally wrong but i'm not electing these people 00:21:14.537 --> 00:21:20.237 sure not electing But I can consult, of course, the group. 00:21:20.337 --> 00:21:26.557 I can consult together with the chief conductor if this matches as a team. 00:21:26.657 --> 00:21:32.737 And this is a very, very good team between Pava and me that we can consult in 00:21:32.737 --> 00:21:37.877 a way group that they find the right quality and that they accept a strong character 00:21:37.877 --> 00:21:41.797 and that they find really an ideal candidate. 00:21:41.797 --> 00:21:44.497 Candidate but so it's not 00:21:44.497 --> 00:21:48.117 that in your area their classic stories or 00:21:48.117 --> 00:21:53.717 anecdotes like oh orchestra x in 1950 collapsed because they went off the rails 00:21:53.717 --> 00:22:02.117 and became a pathological uh group oh okay so but but now if you look at all 00:22:02.117 --> 00:22:07.057 of these groups evolve right they grow and the the members of the group. 00:22:07.417 --> 00:22:13.097 In themselves also have a personal trajectory of growth, which of course can also lead to conflict. 00:22:13.357 --> 00:22:20.137 So how is that managed, the personal growth of the members of a complex environment 00:22:20.137 --> 00:22:24.877 like an orchestra and the overall direction that the collective is taking under 00:22:24.877 --> 00:22:27.937 the leadership of their artistic director? 00:22:29.802 --> 00:22:34.982 The main part is that the collaboration works very well with the artistic director, 00:22:35.222 --> 00:22:38.162 with the chief conductor, like Pavel. 00:22:38.302 --> 00:22:43.762 But on the other hand, you need to give them, to every member in the orchestra, 00:22:44.122 --> 00:22:49.022 give them a possibility to show their own musical quality. 00:22:49.022 --> 00:22:52.782 And we do that, for example, with Chamber Music, that they have their own series 00:22:52.782 --> 00:22:59.782 where they can really curate and invent programs and where they can get and 00:22:59.782 --> 00:23:01.782 enhance their visibility on their own. 00:23:01.922 --> 00:23:06.682 So on the other hand, they need, besides sitting in the group, 00:23:06.842 --> 00:23:08.502 having a fixed position, 00:23:08.802 --> 00:23:16.022 we give them really a space and a possibility to be part of the bigger construction 00:23:16.022 --> 00:23:17.542 of the concert hall. Right. 00:23:17.742 --> 00:23:23.422 So that also means you acknowledge that every individual has sort of a space 00:23:23.422 --> 00:23:28.222 of exploration that this does not necessarily fit in the envelope of the larger 00:23:28.222 --> 00:23:30.822 collective, but you give an other channel for that. 00:23:31.182 --> 00:23:35.742 Yes. More smaller, where people say, look, go explore, right? 00:23:36.322 --> 00:23:40.642 Find new boundaries, but within the broader picture, this is what we're doing. 00:23:41.002 --> 00:23:43.982 Right? It's sort of that kind of balance that you're trying to strike. 00:23:44.822 --> 00:23:50.642 Yeah. Okay. So, on the other hand, of course, what we should never forget for 00:23:50.642 --> 00:23:55.382 complex organizations like the Tone Hall, there's a whole structure, infrastructure, 00:23:55.682 --> 00:24:00.602 management structure around, in the end, the performers and the orchestra. 00:24:01.822 --> 00:24:07.042 So, does that operate on similar principles or does that follow a different 00:24:07.042 --> 00:24:09.262 kind of managerial model? 00:24:10.342 --> 00:24:15.062 I would say it's a different kind of a managerial model because in the management 00:24:15.062 --> 00:24:21.982 team, we couldn't only work like here's the guidance and let's go for it. 00:24:22.082 --> 00:24:26.202 And I would say in the morning, every morning, come on, today we are doing that 00:24:26.202 --> 00:24:28.842 and the result at the end of the day should be that. 00:24:28.842 --> 00:24:32.042 So it's a different model definitely because we 00:24:32.042 --> 00:24:35.402 are not on stage but we need on the same eye 00:24:35.402 --> 00:24:42.182 level be being very productive and being very creative so for example at the 00:24:42.182 --> 00:24:48.082 moment during dealing with COVID-19 we learned at the management organization 00:24:48.082 --> 00:24:54.422 how to enrich and how to raise up our flexibility, 00:24:55.662 --> 00:25:03.482 Normally, we have planned, let's say, years in advance, months in advance, now we are planning.