WEBVTT 00:00:05.062 --> 00:00:09.122 Hi, I'm Paul Verschure and together with my colleague Ferdinand van Siemens, 00:00:09.262 --> 00:00:14.062 we are speaking today with Alexander Neuken about collaboration in large-scale 00:00:14.062 --> 00:00:17.482 financial transactions such as mergers and acquisitions. 00:00:18.362 --> 00:00:22.962 Alexander is a partner at Ernst & Young where he leads lifetime strategy and 00:00:22.962 --> 00:00:26.422 transactions for Europe, Middle East, India and Africa. 00:00:27.542 --> 00:00:30.542 Would you, as a start, it would really be helpful 00:00:30.542 --> 00:00:33.682 i think if you situate a little bit your expertise 00:00:33.682 --> 00:00:37.262 by giving us like a very short summary of 00:00:37.262 --> 00:00:40.542 of where you're coming from your career development 00:00:40.542 --> 00:00:45.042 and how you ended up where you are right now with with your experience understanding 00:00:45.042 --> 00:00:52.982 of of collaboration yeah so maybe first of all i can start with my with my career 00:00:52.982 --> 00:00:59.962 path um it is really not a straight line i would say the only continuum is life sciences. 00:01:00.182 --> 00:01:05.922 That's everything else is basically a little bit, looks like a random walk, 00:01:06.062 --> 00:01:11.562 but it adds up to a certain pool of knowledge and experience that's very valuable today. 00:01:11.802 --> 00:01:16.162 So I started out as a lawyer. I'm a lawyer by training, not a scientist. 00:01:17.782 --> 00:01:21.602 But by coincidence, basically my 00:01:21.602 --> 00:01:25.122 first transactions were life science transactions. It was not my choice. 00:01:25.242 --> 00:01:29.762 It was just kind of given as a first task, selling a life science business. 00:01:30.542 --> 00:01:33.382 And then thereafter, another one and thereafter, another one. 00:01:33.422 --> 00:01:37.642 So it piled up that I got very interested. 00:01:39.482 --> 00:01:45.982 After a few years, two and a half years of being a lawyer, I switched in banking 00:01:45.982 --> 00:01:48.582 through the catalyst of an MBA. 00:01:48.782 --> 00:01:53.342 So I did the MBA in Fontainebleau, a short program, 10 months. 00:01:53.342 --> 00:02:01.402 And then I basically entered into the banking world at Lehman at the time. 00:02:01.422 --> 00:02:09.282 That was when I joined it, a thriving firm, very eager to grow and hunt in the 00:02:09.282 --> 00:02:11.942 market, very successfully so. 00:02:12.662 --> 00:02:17.662 So 2006, far away from the financial crisis. And then in 2008, 00:02:17.962 --> 00:02:20.542 all the engines stopped all of a sudden. 00:02:21.419 --> 00:02:25.779 I was involved in great deals, very interesting experience, very intense time, 00:02:26.059 --> 00:02:27.879 very many sleepless nights. 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:37.779 So that was a super experience, but it stopped all in 2008 when the world changed 00:02:37.779 --> 00:02:39.899 and Lehman went bankrupt. 00:02:40.219 --> 00:02:46.039 I was lucky to then be taken over by Nomura, the Japanese investment bank. 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:52.979 So very different culture, very different approach, but they were keen to include 00:02:52.979 --> 00:02:55.519 or integrate the Lehman crowd. 00:02:55.899 --> 00:03:00.059 And so we had a second life after Lehman. 00:03:01.059 --> 00:03:06.579 Then later I moved on to UBS for another three, four years. 00:03:06.699 --> 00:03:13.979 And 2015, I joined EY. why and the ask to join you why first of all i was quite 00:03:13.979 --> 00:03:15.739 skeptical saying okay i've done, 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:19.199 a lot of i've gained a 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:24.079 lot of transaction experience i'm a banker to some degree a lawyer yes i can 00:03:24.079 --> 00:03:29.359 i i can combine those two worlds but for me um the accounting firms were always 00:03:29.359 --> 00:03:33.159 doing the financial due diligence which is not my cup of tea so i was kind of 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:35.179 skeptical what to do there but the 00:03:35.179 --> 00:03:38.579 interesting there was an interesting proposition um they They came with, 00:03:38.699 --> 00:03:42.339 they said, we know very much what we can do. 00:03:42.379 --> 00:03:47.299 We are very much self-centered around our competencies, but we don't really 00:03:47.299 --> 00:03:53.099 know what the, or we are less good at knowing what our clients really need, 00:03:53.179 --> 00:03:57.119 want, and to bring a holistic perspective on to the table. 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:02.259 So we're not talking about our competencies, but more talking about the opportunities 00:04:02.259 --> 00:04:09.799 in the market and how to capture them with a joint offering and really connecting the dots. 00:04:09.959 --> 00:04:16.759 That was a very appealing proposition to me because I can bring in my expertise 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:22.359 on the sector, my previous knowledge, my network, and combine a lot of elements 00:04:22.359 --> 00:04:24.539 throughout the career that I collected. 00:04:25.930 --> 00:04:32.950 I joined EY in 2015, and since then I'm running in EMEA, so Europe, 00:04:33.030 --> 00:04:39.750 Middle East, India, and Africa, so a pretty diverse and broad sector or broad geography, 00:04:40.050 --> 00:04:45.190 the health, science, and wellness, how it's called here now, sector. 00:04:45.350 --> 00:04:49.210 So that includes pharma, it includes medtech, it includes consumer health, 00:04:49.330 --> 00:04:53.450 so all sorts of different areas. 00:04:53.970 --> 00:04:58.230 And on top of it, it also includes healthcare. 00:04:58.410 --> 00:05:02.850 So that's healthcare services, hospitals, provider, payer organizations, 00:05:03.050 --> 00:05:05.070 which is not so much my area of expertise. 00:05:05.790 --> 00:05:11.210 But given the broad perimeter and given my role being based out of Frankfurt, 00:05:11.410 --> 00:05:17.210 running a team that is based in London, even before Corona and before we stopped 00:05:17.210 --> 00:05:23.730 being able to meet in person, I was already very, 00:05:23.890 --> 00:05:28.330 very, very intensively working remotely. 00:05:29.170 --> 00:05:39.150 Working connected across regions and developing collaborative approaches that 00:05:39.150 --> 00:05:42.490 were new to the firm also. 00:05:42.490 --> 00:05:47.750 Also, because originally the approach was very much centered around an individual 00:05:47.750 --> 00:05:53.030 with a franchise, with a team underneath, all sitting together at the same place. 00:05:53.290 --> 00:05:59.490 And the beauty of the organization is we have so much competency in various 00:05:59.490 --> 00:06:06.570 areas that are combined much stronger than separated and on individual pockets. 00:06:06.570 --> 00:06:11.270 And combining that, bringing all of that together, and bringing that to the 00:06:11.270 --> 00:06:18.430 value of the client, that's basically my task and my journey here. Okay. 00:06:21.861 --> 00:06:23.961 So, Alexander, thank you for 00:06:23.961 --> 00:06:30.841 that summary. But there's a lot of elements in this and a lot to unpack. 00:06:31.321 --> 00:06:42.141 So, maybe as a start, through this whole trajectory, what do you see as the 00:06:42.141 --> 00:06:43.901 patterns of collaboration? 00:06:43.901 --> 00:06:49.081 If you would give a characterization of how you see collaboration in these different 00:06:49.081 --> 00:06:53.841 domains where you're active, so not only you and your team, but also you and your clients, 00:06:54.101 --> 00:06:57.421 you and different industries that you might want to bring together, 00:06:57.541 --> 00:07:03.341 is there a pattern to what you might want to call collaboration in that context? 00:07:03.341 --> 00:07:07.301 Yeah, I think the key element 00:07:07.301 --> 00:07:11.461 or the first step is really to get an 00:07:11.461 --> 00:07:15.561 understanding of the different interests and 00:07:15.561 --> 00:07:26.481 align on goals or how we call it on purpose on the joint key factors that make 00:07:26.481 --> 00:07:32.901 people drive and pull the whole carriage in the same direction. 00:07:32.901 --> 00:07:39.161 Because that's the center point for being able to collaborate, really. 00:07:39.281 --> 00:07:43.981 Otherwise, you're having loose ends or people, in the worst case, 00:07:44.161 --> 00:07:46.961 even pulling the string in different directions. 00:07:47.341 --> 00:07:54.921 And that's really a bad and not a good start. 00:07:55.301 --> 00:07:58.741 We were talking about common goals, right? You said, look, you have to identify 00:07:58.741 --> 00:08:02.861 the common goals. But now in the complex structures you're in, 00:08:03.001 --> 00:08:07.741 common goals could vary depending on the operating level, right? 00:08:07.801 --> 00:08:12.481 The common goal of, let's say, a manager you deal with or a legal expert you 00:08:12.481 --> 00:08:18.161 deal with might be different from the more abstract goal of the organization itself. 00:08:19.221 --> 00:08:20.641 So how do you then define that? 00:08:21.582 --> 00:08:24.322 Those goals yeah i think the 00:08:24.322 --> 00:08:27.442 the key is to to um 00:08:27.442 --> 00:08:30.542 acknowledge the multiple facets of it 00:08:30.542 --> 00:08:36.762 like you described right so um the question is can you combine all the different 00:08:36.762 --> 00:08:44.842 ambitions goals intentions into one aggregated bigger thing that's basically 00:08:44.842 --> 00:08:49.002 the purpose of of us doing something together, 00:08:49.282 --> 00:08:54.882 of an organization being an organization, actually. 00:08:55.002 --> 00:09:00.782 There is some bigger goal behind it. And if you can crystallize that, 00:09:00.922 --> 00:09:09.202 identify that, and then break it down into different elements that are supporting this, 00:09:09.362 --> 00:09:15.382 and then ideally get people excited about the bigger 00:09:15.562 --> 00:09:21.022 goal, but recognize that, for example, a smaller goal is my next paycheck, right? 00:09:21.162 --> 00:09:26.702 So this all needs to tie together and be consistent. 00:09:26.922 --> 00:09:31.122 If you are creating contradictions in between, it doesn't help you. 00:09:31.262 --> 00:09:35.862 So being not an inclusive, not diverse environment. 00:09:36.402 --> 00:09:42.682 Excluding people, things like that, that's That's all distraction and not helping 00:09:42.682 --> 00:09:47.702 to service the purpose and align people behind your goal. 00:09:47.862 --> 00:09:54.242 So this is very important that you have this bigger picture, 00:09:54.342 --> 00:09:59.102 vision that you can transport and people are aligning behind it. 00:10:00.382 --> 00:10:06.262 So that collaboration, on the one hand, you say, is characterized by the sharing of goals. 00:10:07.322 --> 00:10:10.862 Yeah. But are there other defining features? 00:10:15.582 --> 00:10:22.222 What do you mean by other defining features? I mean, the goals can be multiple faceted. It can be pay. 00:10:22.402 --> 00:10:28.182 It can be... If we take goal as one feature, another goal might, 00:10:28.282 --> 00:10:31.962 for instance, be, let's say, communication or it might be trust. 00:10:32.482 --> 00:10:38.402 Yes, of course. I mean, that needs to be, communication is extremely important, 00:10:38.502 --> 00:10:43.822 I think, to transport the goal, to align people behind it. 00:10:44.762 --> 00:10:49.742 In particular, when you're working remotely in different geographies, 00:10:50.842 --> 00:10:52.782 communication is the key element. 00:10:54.642 --> 00:10:58.442 At the moment, it feels a little bit, in COVID times, that we are, 00:10:59.491 --> 00:11:04.291 We are chasing our own shadow by lining up call after call, 00:11:04.471 --> 00:11:09.631 but to get people who are sitting in a completely different place in a completely 00:11:09.631 --> 00:11:14.471 different setting with very different individual experiences, 00:11:14.511 --> 00:11:17.131 how that setting works for the one, 00:11:17.231 --> 00:11:25.731 for the employee who is alone in his 20 square meter apartment, 00:11:25.991 --> 00:11:28.671 sitting there for two years in lockdown. 00:11:28.671 --> 00:11:31.671 Down is is a different experience than um for example 00:11:31.671 --> 00:11:35.331 for myself with a full house of of kids and and um 00:11:35.331 --> 00:11:39.351 and family around me that uh where 00:11:39.351 --> 00:11:42.271 you probably less are less dependent on external 00:11:42.271 --> 00:11:47.431 contacts let's put it that way right so um everyone has a different experience 00:11:47.431 --> 00:11:54.791 there and you need to acknowledge that and you need to to kind of communicate 00:11:54.791 --> 00:12:01.891 in a way that you you get the buy-in and the engagement from the various parties. 00:12:02.171 --> 00:12:11.271 And in the old times, just anecdotally, when you got the idea of a joint project 00:12:11.271 --> 00:12:14.531 and starting something, 00:12:14.691 --> 00:12:19.251 the first question of some colleagues was, what's in for me? 00:12:19.331 --> 00:12:22.331 So why should I do this? 00:12:22.471 --> 00:12:25.711 How much can I earn with it, et cetera? 00:12:25.851 --> 00:12:29.691 I think that's the wrong start for that conversation because, 00:12:29.791 --> 00:12:32.891 I mean, ultimately that's an important question, 00:12:33.011 --> 00:12:42.451 but I think it takes out a little bit the spirit of where we want to go with 00:12:42.451 --> 00:12:45.691 the organization or with the collaboration. 00:12:45.691 --> 00:12:57.891 And that's something that took me a while to understand how to get that, how to make that happen, 00:12:58.071 --> 00:13:01.371 that people are not asking the first question, what's in for me, 00:13:01.451 --> 00:13:08.171 but what's the overarching goal, 00:13:08.391 --> 00:13:13.431 why do we discuss this collaboration in the first place, etc. 00:13:13.431 --> 00:13:17.151 And then, ultimately, it needs to work for everyone. 00:13:17.291 --> 00:13:20.531 It should not be a loss-making proposition for any individual involved. 00:13:20.971 --> 00:13:24.111 But then you bring it back to goal again, right? With communication, 00:13:24.671 --> 00:13:29.751 for instance, communication is often highly structured in organizations. 00:13:30.331 --> 00:13:37.171 And to get the buy-in of all the layers of such a structure might require also 00:13:37.171 --> 00:13:42.051 a very specific approach towards communication that is serving those goals. 00:13:42.051 --> 00:13:46.831 So do you also see that you do that, that you structure the communication process 00:13:46.831 --> 00:13:52.431 to also serve this idea of building a sense of common goal? 00:13:55.593 --> 00:14:02.373 Yeah, and I think the way to structure this is it's a process, right? 00:14:02.453 --> 00:14:08.373 It's not that I have the idea of how it looks like and then basically infiltrate 00:14:08.373 --> 00:14:12.073 the team and dump it on the team. 00:14:12.173 --> 00:14:15.713 It's an evolution. evolution um and 00:14:15.713 --> 00:14:18.673 uh it's it's a process that has lots 00:14:18.673 --> 00:14:22.093 of iterations and lots of 00:14:22.093 --> 00:14:29.253 uh joint thinking and out of the box thinking um how to how to make this happen 00:14:29.253 --> 00:14:35.253 how to evolve it it's also try and error to some degree right so um you fail 00:14:35.253 --> 00:14:41.213 on on certain things you you undertake and then you ask Ask yourself, why did it fail? 00:14:41.353 --> 00:14:47.453 Why did I not get the buy-in from my counterparty? Why did he not support this? 00:14:47.953 --> 00:14:51.333 For me, it was absolutely logical that this is the right thing to do. 00:14:51.453 --> 00:14:53.053 And then you get pushback. 00:14:53.493 --> 00:14:56.933 So you need to ask yourself, what's driving the other person? 00:14:56.993 --> 00:15:01.373 Why is it not feasible to do it this way? And how can we make it work? 00:15:03.273 --> 00:15:07.133 Then, in that respect, so that means you have a very, if you want, 00:15:07.213 --> 00:15:09.433 customized approach to the communication. 00:15:10.173 --> 00:15:14.713 And then a third dimension that speaks, that is, of course, trust. 00:15:14.813 --> 00:15:20.773 Because if you try to bring partners together and also deal with this multi-level 00:15:20.773 --> 00:15:26.813 structure of the organization, there are many links of trust that you have to 00:15:26.813 --> 00:15:28.573 engineer or also assess. 00:15:29.853 --> 00:15:33.873 So how do you deal with that? Yeah, that's a good point. And I think when I 00:15:33.873 --> 00:15:40.213 joined the organization, it was initially the banker coming into this environment. 00:15:40.453 --> 00:15:50.993 Bankers are sharks and they are not really regarded as very collaborative and team able or whatever. 00:15:51.533 --> 00:15:55.493 So I had to overcome a degree of skepticism. 00:15:55.493 --> 00:15:59.193 And I think the way to, 00:15:59.913 --> 00:16:04.313 I solved it as maybe there's better ways to do it I don't know but the way I 00:16:04.313 --> 00:16:09.493 solved it I choose the battles where it sounded it looked to me like there's 00:16:09.493 --> 00:16:18.013 more promising to get to get collaboration going so I didn't try to run through 00:16:18.013 --> 00:16:19.793 the wall with where people were, 00:16:20.593 --> 00:16:25.913 reserved and not inclusive and said no we don't want to don't mess up with this 00:16:25.913 --> 00:16:27.193 account. We don't want you here. 00:16:28.553 --> 00:16:34.653 So I choose opportunities where I could create positive examples. 00:16:35.013 --> 00:16:41.253 And I firmly believe in leading with examples or really living the way, 00:16:42.306 --> 00:16:45.306 um as an example for for others to 00:16:45.306 --> 00:16:48.846 to follow and then um hopefully people 00:16:48.846 --> 00:16:51.966 buy in and over time i must realize this is this 00:16:51.966 --> 00:16:55.846 has been quite quite successful so people start uh 00:16:55.846 --> 00:17:01.846 seeing the the successes seeing how it can work working together and we get 00:17:01.846 --> 00:17:08.266 more out of it so uh why not trying it as well with this guy so this is a little 00:17:08.266 --> 00:17:12.186 bit that's interesting right because you you take the trust challenge very much 00:17:12.186 --> 00:17:15.626 as you as a trusted mediator, 00:17:15.706 --> 00:17:17.826 right? How do people trust you as mediator? 00:17:18.246 --> 00:17:21.946 Which of course is a necessary condition to get anything done. 00:17:23.246 --> 00:17:28.886 On the other hand, you have to bring parties together that might not trust each 00:17:28.886 --> 00:17:34.546 other a priori, neither all the players within an organization, right? 00:17:34.626 --> 00:17:40.806 So now it's your task as the mediator to have people also trust each other so 00:17:40.806 --> 00:17:42.886 the common goal can be achieved. 00:17:43.406 --> 00:17:48.646 So do you approach that in a systematic way or do you also leave that to the 00:17:48.646 --> 00:17:49.646 organizations themselves? 00:17:50.826 --> 00:17:56.646 No, I think the way we developed it from there, so basically first was creating 00:17:56.646 --> 00:18:01.666 a few examples, but then trying to systematically scan the market for where 00:18:01.666 --> 00:18:04.326 can we create additional cases like that. 00:18:04.326 --> 00:18:10.726 So how do we, because it's in various geographies, I created my first positive 00:18:10.726 --> 00:18:12.326 examples in the Nordic region. 00:18:12.426 --> 00:18:21.086 So I had a few very successful and very, very positive experiences working with 00:18:21.086 --> 00:18:23.206 the colleagues in Sweden and in Denmark. 00:18:23.966 --> 00:18:28.706 And then I ventured out into other regions to replicate that example. 00:18:28.706 --> 00:18:31.866 So basically saying, look, it worked very well working together. 00:18:32.086 --> 00:18:34.226 Here's the outcome. This is how we achieved it. 00:18:34.906 --> 00:18:41.826 And this is working successful. You get just in deal terms or in transaction 00:18:41.826 --> 00:18:45.886 terms, that's my home tab, you get bigger deals, bigger fees. You get better outcome. 00:18:46.166 --> 00:18:50.686 You really create relationships with a client that are lasting longer. 00:18:51.346 --> 00:18:56.926 You get all sorts of other services included into the mix. So you really can 00:18:56.926 --> 00:18:59.746 create a franchise jointly. And that was... 00:19:02.326 --> 00:19:06.386 If you just tell them in theory that this can work, people are skeptical. 00:19:06.486 --> 00:19:12.546 They have done it a different way over years. And why should this guy who is 00:19:12.546 --> 00:19:16.906 coming from the outside be able to change that? But if you can... 00:19:18.342 --> 00:19:23.562 Pinpoint certain examples that really bring it to life, how it could look like, 00:19:24.362 --> 00:19:30.022 how good it looks like in that term, then people are getting curious and want 00:19:30.022 --> 00:19:32.942 to have the same. So people start approaching. 00:19:33.722 --> 00:19:36.962 Instead of me pushing at closed doors, 00:19:37.262 --> 00:19:39.922 it's more that they invite me me 00:19:39.922 --> 00:19:43.322 then to to join the and and replicate this 00:19:43.322 --> 00:19:46.382 and this is then taking place in france 00:19:46.382 --> 00:19:49.482 in spain in other countries where people realize okay 00:19:49.482 --> 00:19:54.142 there's value in working together okay but but that that's if you want the so 00:19:54.142 --> 00:19:58.502 so far we looked at it very much from a positive reinforcement perspective right 00:19:58.502 --> 00:20:03.322 like you bring people together because they share goals and because they can 00:20:03.322 --> 00:20:07.442 achieve common outcomes that they would all value positively. 00:20:07.962 --> 00:20:14.562 But the difficulty, of course, of these situations is that there are also conflicting goals. 00:20:14.802 --> 00:20:18.702 And there are also conflicts in communication. There are conflicts in objectives. 00:20:19.122 --> 00:20:23.162 And then the positive approach might not always work very well. 00:20:23.702 --> 00:20:28.782 Because people just look at the world differently. Now, how do you approach 00:20:28.782 --> 00:20:30.742 these more conflictuous situations? 00:20:31.102 --> 00:20:35.462 How do you resolve them? Is it always about bringing people back onto the path 00:20:35.462 --> 00:20:40.742 of the common goal, or are there also negative elements that are part of the 00:20:40.742 --> 00:20:44.342 interaction that you say, if we don't do this, we fail? 00:20:45.182 --> 00:20:51.462 Look, I think it very much depends on the universe or the environment you're 00:20:51.462 --> 00:20:59.722 operating in and how you can sanction misbehavior or whatever. 00:20:59.722 --> 00:21:04.082 So if I look back into banking times, it was very easy. 00:21:04.242 --> 00:21:08.902 It's a little bit organized like an army. You have the general on top and then 00:21:08.902 --> 00:21:12.082 a lot of people marching with marching orders. 00:21:12.282 --> 00:21:15.982 And they are given a task. They know the direction. 00:21:16.062 --> 00:21:22.822 If they fail to achieve it or if they work not basically in the sense of what 00:21:22.822 --> 00:21:25.162 has been given as a task, they usually 00:21:25.162 --> 00:21:30.802 very soon lose their role in the organization. So that's very easy. 00:21:31.542 --> 00:21:36.402 In a partnership, it's not like that. You cannot enforce things, 00:21:36.562 --> 00:21:42.842 in particular if you are not, in a legal sense, 00:21:43.222 --> 00:21:47.182 the boss of any of those people you are working with. 00:21:47.342 --> 00:21:53.362 So you are more like a peer and you need to make other peers aware. 00:21:54.847 --> 00:21:59.667 Realize that it's an advantage working with you. There's no much sanction. 00:21:59.827 --> 00:22:05.687 Of course, if someone is misbehaving consistently and not collaborative, 00:22:05.947 --> 00:22:10.347 et cetera, on the long run, you will fail, even in a partnership. 00:22:10.547 --> 00:22:17.647 But as an immediate way to get people going, there is not so many sanctions you can do. 00:22:17.847 --> 00:22:23.947 You can just, and that was a learning I took from one of my mentors when I joined. 00:22:23.947 --> 00:22:28.907 He said, identify the 10, 20% of people who are really leading, 00:22:29.107 --> 00:22:31.847 who really want to lead this in a certain direction, 00:22:32.067 --> 00:22:39.207 who are willing to for the change that's needed, who embrace this opportunity working with you. 00:22:40.507 --> 00:22:46.687 50, 60% of the rest of the organization will follow and they will always be 00:22:46.687 --> 00:22:51.267 the rest that is never going to follow because they don't want to. 00:22:51.307 --> 00:22:54.087 They are not able to. they then leave them 00:22:54.087 --> 00:22:56.987 just leave them behind it's not that the organization 00:22:56.987 --> 00:23:00.087 will change and and you need to identify those 00:23:00.087 --> 00:23:03.107 who are willing to to embrace the change 00:23:03.107 --> 00:23:08.767 and and i took that very seriously i don't i don't think it's worth it's worth 00:23:08.767 --> 00:23:14.387 spending or wasting your time on battles you cannot win people ultimately then 00:23:14.387 --> 00:23:19.147 self-select to be not part of this journey and if they They self-select not 00:23:19.147 --> 00:23:20.187 to be part of the journey. 00:23:20.487 --> 00:23:26.387 And you will see that ultimately in their performance, in their numbers, and they will fail. 00:23:26.627 --> 00:23:32.687 So probably not worth spending too much time trying to pull them also into the 00:23:32.687 --> 00:23:35.027 same direction. In default, right. 00:23:35.547 --> 00:23:39.767 Do you think that also culture is a relevant factor in this for you? 00:23:39.887 --> 00:23:46.647 Because you are dealing with a huge swath of territory from Scandinavia to Africa. 00:23:46.647 --> 00:23:54.287 So, is culture an important dimension on which you would approach collaboration across these regions? 00:23:55.252 --> 00:24:01.712 Not really. I think the beauty of our organization, we are a global organization. 00:24:01.832 --> 00:24:06.112 We are present in so many cultures. I've been working with people in Saudi Arabia. 00:24:06.212 --> 00:24:12.252 I've been working with people in UK, in Germany, in Africa, in India. 00:24:12.252 --> 00:24:21.652 Yeah, they all have different cultures, but the culture, if we want to be successful as an organization, 00:24:21.972 --> 00:24:28.192 we need to accept certain cultural differences on the one side. 00:24:28.252 --> 00:24:35.572 But we must not compromise on our values, on our standards. 00:24:35.572 --> 00:24:45.932 So even in countries where it's harder to navigate with a Western European mindset, 00:24:46.212 --> 00:24:50.292 let's put it that way, and where the country as such is less liberal, 00:24:50.592 --> 00:24:58.832 we need to find ways within the firm to stick to our values and live our values 00:24:58.832 --> 00:25:04.352 without creating too much of a contradiction to the local setup. 00:25:04.352 --> 00:25:11.612 Up yeah so it's a it's a it's a fine line but it's very important that um for 00:25:11.612 --> 00:25:16.792 example um we we are in in saudi arabia we are employer of um. 00:25:18.298 --> 00:25:21.538 Probably as many women as as men yeah and um 00:25:21.538 --> 00:25:24.878 of course we appreciate and acknowledge local 00:25:24.878 --> 00:25:30.858 differences so we have working spaces that are reserved for women only if they 00:25:30.858 --> 00:25:35.178 don't feel comfortable working next to men etc that's a cultural thing you would 00:25:35.178 --> 00:25:40.138 not see that in germany or in other places but um that's the that's the fine 00:25:40.138 --> 00:25:41.998 line acknowledge local differences 00:25:42.278 --> 00:25:45.018 but don't compromise on what we do 00:25:45.018 --> 00:25:52.298 and how we do it and have core values that are globally the same well that's 00:25:52.298 --> 00:25:58.698 interesting alexander right because in some sense we have moral norms because 00:25:58.698 --> 00:26:04.378 we are part of broader collaborative processes that form our society society. 00:26:05.298 --> 00:26:10.718 And that's what you say, right? You try to also adhere to those norms, 00:26:10.838 --> 00:26:15.318 even if there are cultural challenges to those, or let's say regional challenges. 00:26:15.578 --> 00:26:21.758 But that also might mean that there is a point of contradiction that's just 00:26:21.758 --> 00:26:22.918 not sustainable anymore, 00:26:23.038 --> 00:26:27.918 and that you would have to choose to either proceed with a project and compromise 00:26:27.918 --> 00:26:30.618 your norm, or give up on a project. 00:26:30.778 --> 00:26:35.618 So how is that balancing act realized so 00:26:35.618 --> 00:26:39.138 our our policy is to not 00:26:39.138 --> 00:26:41.918 compromise on our values so if they 00:26:41.918 --> 00:26:44.818 have a conflict there then we rather 00:26:44.818 --> 00:26:47.638 not do a project even if it would be 00:26:47.638 --> 00:26:51.678 a highly profitable project that's 00:26:51.678 --> 00:26:54.518 that's very clear um is that 00:26:54.518 --> 00:27:02.478 something that uh we we live in every situation i cannot tell because I don't 00:27:02.478 --> 00:27:11.918 have visibility on that and I'm not at a level where I have visibility into that. 00:27:12.078 --> 00:27:15.158 I can only tell from my immediate environment. 00:27:16.258 --> 00:27:21.098 Luckily, I was never in such a conflict yet, 00:27:21.218 --> 00:27:27.598 but clearly when it comes to the quality of work and if we cannot deliver the 00:27:27.598 --> 00:27:40.338 the quality that I have signed up for and our organization is pursuing or delivering, 00:27:40.578 --> 00:27:44.418 then we would rather stop the project. 00:27:44.778 --> 00:27:50.958 But would organizations like yours or banks that you worked for also have explicit 00:27:50.958 --> 00:27:57.218 protocols and monitoring processes for that that are also effective in those situations? 00:27:57.598 --> 00:28:07.718 Yeah, absolutely. We do have a rigorous compliance process that starts with... 00:28:09.746 --> 00:28:18.266 The uh really with within knowing your customer no reviewing the background of that customer, 00:28:19.026 --> 00:28:21.946 to make i mean for most of the cases where i work 00:28:21.946 --> 00:28:27.066 with clients it's not it's not an issue it's the big names um from beyer to 00:28:27.066 --> 00:28:32.546 novartis to whoever that they are known in the market and we are working for 00:28:32.546 --> 00:28:39.846 a long time together but clearly if there's a new client we would we would, 00:28:40.506 --> 00:28:46.606 clearly look into into the background and then there is a there's a rigorous 00:28:46.606 --> 00:28:51.446 onboarding process and for every project that's being taken on there is a conflict 00:28:51.446 --> 00:28:57.206 check and a compliance process that is very, 00:28:57.366 --> 00:28:58.466 very closely monitored. 00:28:58.866 --> 00:29:10.906 And any concern from a reputational issue or whatever is being raised and then 00:29:10.906 --> 00:29:15.406 may end the relationship before it actually has started. 00:29:16.786 --> 00:29:22.806 Right. So we looked at it also rather abstract now, right? So sort of general 00:29:22.806 --> 00:29:26.386 principles based on your experience and insight. 00:29:27.006 --> 00:29:30.186 But maybe we can also look at more concrete examples. 00:29:30.406 --> 00:29:35.766 And I think with the Lehman Brothers example, it's a very dramatic one where 00:29:35.766 --> 00:29:44.826 in some sense you could argue collaboration at different scales sort of was 00:29:44.826 --> 00:29:45.586 not really sustainable. 00:29:46.986 --> 00:29:52.586 So, do you see Lehman Brothers as a failure of collaboration or would you say 00:29:52.586 --> 00:29:55.446 that was beyond the control of the organization itself? 00:29:55.886 --> 00:30:02.366 I think in hindsight, and it's a few years back, so certainly the dust has settled 00:30:02.366 --> 00:30:08.506 on a few questions, but in hindsight it was primarily a leadership failure. 00:30:09.206 --> 00:30:18.246 So not acknowledging at the right time that standalone the organization is not. 00:30:20.018 --> 00:30:26.718 Not set up to survive given that the organization back then was coming out of a, 00:30:27.738 --> 00:30:30.838 environment where long-term commitments 00:30:30.838 --> 00:30:34.898 were short-term funded and the the 00:30:34.898 --> 00:30:41.778 environment on the funding side and the the short-term funding was no longer 00:30:41.778 --> 00:30:53.958 possible there was huge huge mark-to-mark adjustments on assets that were on the balance sheet. 00:30:54.118 --> 00:31:00.798 The prop trading activities were basically turning out to be a disaster. 00:31:01.358 --> 00:31:08.278 A lot of mortgage loans that were of no value at the time. 00:31:09.398 --> 00:31:15.058 And then you have the margin call, and then all of a sudden your funding explodes or implodes better. 00:31:15.598 --> 00:31:22.558 So I think that was probably a leadership issue that, 00:31:22.638 --> 00:31:25.598 I mean, on that level, you should 00:31:25.598 --> 00:31:38.558 have visibility on the factors that are managing your balance sheet, 00:31:38.618 --> 00:31:38.838 etc. 00:31:39.078 --> 00:31:46.398 And that was far beyond my pay grade at the time. So we are just doing what 00:31:46.398 --> 00:31:50.178 we were basically supposed to, i.e. 00:31:51.238 --> 00:31:56.478 Advise on transactions. And that was, in principle, a thriving business. 00:31:56.758 --> 00:32:01.078 It was just the whole setup was not sustainable at the time. 00:32:01.078 --> 00:32:06.578 What is interesting about it, though, is that if we go back to this issue of 00:32:06.578 --> 00:32:10.258 building effective collaboration through common goals, 00:32:10.658 --> 00:32:18.218 still, that whole organization had structured itself around common goals that 00:32:18.218 --> 00:32:23.798 it would have been able to sustain were it not the case that there was a large 00:32:23.798 --> 00:32:25.898 implosion of the mortgage market. 00:32:25.898 --> 00:32:33.438 And so, in some sense, what is interesting about that, we also look at an artifact of goal setting. 00:32:35.878 --> 00:32:41.858 And it has to mean any change in the industries you look at with respect to 00:32:41.858 --> 00:32:48.918 goal setting so that these artifacts that are massive disasters can be avoided. 00:32:49.178 --> 00:32:50.858 Have you seen changes in that? 00:32:55.280 --> 00:33:00.560 You mean in the immediate banking environment or more broadly? 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:07.120 Well, look, to put it more bluntly, you could say, look, the system was driven 00:33:07.120 --> 00:33:11.260 by monetary gain at any level of organization. 00:33:11.760 --> 00:33:18.400 And that led also to exactly this very risky structuring of the balance sheet. 00:33:19.220 --> 00:33:22.660 However this was the way to motivate the 00:33:22.660 --> 00:33:25.660 organization and its different members to keep on marching 00:33:25.660 --> 00:33:31.200 in the army behind that general now so essentially this was all monetary gain 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:36.620 oriented for the members of the organization and the shareholders and this in 00:33:36.620 --> 00:33:42.380 some sense was one of the key contributing factors to the collapse so so then 00:33:42.380 --> 00:33:45.620 of course we can now start to generalize and say, okay, has that changed? 00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:49.000 Or are we still facing similar risks? Because in some sense, 00:33:49.080 --> 00:33:52.720 also the way you described goals, for many economic entities, 00:33:53.040 --> 00:33:55.960 it is about value. It's also about shareholder value. 00:33:56.400 --> 00:34:04.480 So has that attitude towards setting common goals along monetary gain changed 00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:07.480 since your experience at Lehman Brothers? 00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:14.020 I'm probably not in a position to give a general answer throughout the industry. 00:34:14.200 --> 00:34:19.800 I think clearly regulators have given it a lot of thought what went wrong and 00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:22.700 how to prevent this from happening again. 00:34:23.080 --> 00:34:31.220 And there's a balance to find, right? The banks are somewhat like fuel to a, 00:34:32.180 --> 00:34:34.980 motor, you know, or like the oil in the engine. 00:34:35.660 --> 00:34:39.740 It's absolutely needed in order to keep it rolling and going. 00:34:40.200 --> 00:34:48.200 But But I mean, there can go a lot wrong there if you don't, 00:34:49.339 --> 00:34:54.739 You need to give it the right framework. It's clearly an environment that's 00:34:54.739 --> 00:35:00.139 more monetary driven than any other organization I've been working in before. 00:35:00.459 --> 00:35:08.819 So law firms and their self-perception are part of the legal system of our Rechtsstaat. 00:35:08.859 --> 00:35:18.479 I don't know the equivalent word in English, but basically curator of the legal system to some degree. 00:35:18.479 --> 00:35:24.419 So an important stakeholder banks are a similar thing to the economy, right? 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:29.819 They are needed in order to finance growth, finance investments. 00:35:31.419 --> 00:35:39.419 Or ultimately the pensions of millions of people in a functioning banking system. 00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:47.659 So if you do regulation too tight and prevent them from acting profitably, 00:35:48.479 --> 00:35:51.359 then we don't have a bank anymore in Europe. 00:35:51.499 --> 00:35:54.779 That's part of the global set up. 00:35:54.919 --> 00:35:59.439 So you see that too tight regulation is also potentially damaging. 00:36:01.419 --> 00:36:08.179 On the other hand, how do you secure that people are acting ethically and not 00:36:08.179 --> 00:36:13.099 only to their own immediate monetary advantage? 00:36:14.259 --> 00:36:16.199 To be honest, I can't answer that question. 00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:22.159 But you know what? There's an interesting consequence of this, 00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:25.299 Alexander. That's not in a leadership position there. No, look, 00:36:25.399 --> 00:36:27.179 I'm not asking you, okay? 00:36:27.799 --> 00:36:31.639 We're just having a conversation about these issues from our own perspective. 00:36:32.139 --> 00:36:36.299 But what you bring up now is, of course, another aspect to collaboration, 00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:39.259 which is the extra organizational collaboration. 00:36:39.419 --> 00:36:43.479 Because as you say, also a bank has an internal structure, has also an internal 00:36:43.479 --> 00:36:47.899 structure to organize its collaboration and interaction with other organizations. 00:36:48.479 --> 00:36:53.519 Of its kind, but it's again embedded in a broader structure of collaborative 00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:55.299 entities, which we call society. 00:36:56.679 --> 00:37:00.759 And actually, these also might have opposing goals. And as a result, 00:37:00.959 --> 00:37:07.499 a society might say, well, look, we have to regulate what these commercial entities 00:37:07.499 --> 00:37:10.179 do in order to find balance, 00:37:10.299 --> 00:37:16.039 right, to find enough local incentive for organizations to push ahead and explore, 00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:20.579 floor, while in the meantime, making sure that we don't cause damage. 00:37:21.099 --> 00:37:27.159 So how do you see that balancing? Do you think this is something that we have 00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:32.679 to put in place properly and that also these commercial entities should contribute to? 00:37:32.859 --> 00:37:37.679 Or do you see it more as a competition or an arms race between commercial entities 00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:42.899 running ahead and just exploring and societies catching up with trying to regulate? Right. 00:37:43.596 --> 00:37:46.856 Look, I think there is a balance that's useful for both sides ultimately, 00:37:47.036 --> 00:37:52.856 because if you are acting in a regulated environment and things, 00:37:52.996 --> 00:37:59.816 investment opportunities, for example, are thoroughly tested and checked and 00:37:59.816 --> 00:38:02.656 tick boxes from a regulatory standpoint. 00:38:02.656 --> 00:38:07.696 Point, if the regulation is designed in a sense that they want to basically 00:38:07.696 --> 00:38:17.576 make sure that fraud and other elements are extinct and people are not entering 00:38:17.576 --> 00:38:19.256 into stupid investments. 00:38:20.416 --> 00:38:24.436 Because the risk is beyond their horizon, 00:38:24.836 --> 00:38:27.796 they cannot evaluate the risk, then I 00:38:27.796 --> 00:38:30.516 think it's useful because it's creating trust and trust is a 00:38:30.516 --> 00:38:33.796 very important element also for the for 00:38:33.796 --> 00:38:37.156 the one who who is offering the the 00:38:37.156 --> 00:38:40.056 opportunity the investment opportunity or the 00:38:40.056 --> 00:38:43.516 whatever it is the service that it 00:38:43.516 --> 00:38:51.776 is um delivered in a in a regulated tested and monitored environment so that 00:38:51.776 --> 00:39:01.416 but basically people who are doing wrong are early identified and excluded from the market. 00:39:02.316 --> 00:39:06.356 But do you see this as a competitive process between society and commercial 00:39:06.356 --> 00:39:10.276 entities or as also a more collaborative project? 00:39:10.736 --> 00:39:16.956 I think in that regard, if it's done in this way, it depends really much on the mindset. 00:39:17.176 --> 00:39:20.736 But if it's done in the way I described, it's collaborative because it's also 00:39:20.736 --> 00:39:24.696 in the interest of the organization subject to the regulation, right? 00:39:24.776 --> 00:39:30.036 Because it gives you a seal of, okay, I'm part of a regulated environment where 00:39:30.036 --> 00:39:37.096 people can trust that I'm offering a standardized or systematic offering that people can, 00:39:37.796 --> 00:39:43.716 without knowing the details, they can trust that this is properly done while 00:39:43.716 --> 00:39:52.016 in a complete kind of free Western style, Western in the sense of. 00:39:53.136 --> 00:40:01.396 Cowboy style environment everyone does what he thinks how can an, 00:40:02.420 --> 00:40:05.840 Normal person who needs to secure 00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:11.140 the little money they have know where to invest and where not to invest. 00:40:11.240 --> 00:40:14.500 It's not possible or which service to buy or not to buy. 00:40:14.940 --> 00:40:22.120 If there's no common standard and there's no monitoring of the quality, then it's hard, right? 00:40:23.540 --> 00:40:28.380 Okay. That's very interesting because that really means that if we want to anchor 00:40:28.380 --> 00:40:34.240 trust, then trust is also anchored in regulation that a society provides. 00:40:34.740 --> 00:40:38.620 It's not necessarily an intrinsic feature of a commercial entity. 00:40:38.940 --> 00:40:47.020 That's good regulation. There's also other intentions on some of the regulations. 00:40:48.040 --> 00:40:51.640 I mean, even in the political spectrum, 00:40:52.980 --> 00:40:58.140 if I think back on the discussions we had after the Lehman bankruptcy, 00:40:59.180 --> 00:41:04.700 I think there have been a lot of voices also who have no understanding of the 00:41:04.700 --> 00:41:07.360 banking market and the banking world, 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:15.280 And they were overshooting in their ambitions in order to regulate this. 00:41:15.420 --> 00:41:24.240 And that was not with the intention to strengthen the local banking market. 00:41:24.340 --> 00:41:27.540 It was rather sometimes with the intention to rather kill it. 00:41:27.700 --> 00:41:32.600 So that's a different approach. And we need to be careful, 00:41:32.860 --> 00:41:40.080 not everyone who is raising his voice in that context of regulation is actually 00:41:40.080 --> 00:41:44.940 doing it to the benefit of the society. They have more... 00:41:46.819 --> 00:41:52.299 More a political agenda or whatever yeah that's that's not necessarily positive 00:41:52.299 --> 00:41:56.539 but now in your experience so if you look back all such a more recent projects 00:41:56.539 --> 00:42:00.699 what do you see as the factors that lead to the breakdown of collaboration. 00:42:04.659 --> 00:42:12.139 Um so breakdown of collaboration is really when the um, 00:42:14.759 --> 00:42:22.759 when the goals or the intentions diverge. And that can happen even during a process, right? 00:42:22.859 --> 00:42:29.719 So people don't see any value anymore in pulling the carriage in the same direction. 00:42:29.919 --> 00:42:34.979 They rather want to get some pieces out of it and pull it in a different direction. 00:42:35.139 --> 00:42:38.339 That's how collaboration breaks down. 00:42:38.339 --> 00:42:41.219 Very often there's a 00:42:41.219 --> 00:42:44.419 personal agenda coming to it maybe also 00:42:44.419 --> 00:42:47.599 miscommunication leading to to to 00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:51.699 kind of uh yeah getting 00:42:51.699 --> 00:42:57.379 the transporting the the the discussion on a on a personal level i think that's 00:42:57.379 --> 00:43:05.879 that's the ingredients to make it make things fail if if people feel um They're 00:43:05.879 --> 00:43:09.319 not recognized properly, valued properly, 00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:16.839 have their own agenda above the joint agenda, things like that. 00:43:16.919 --> 00:43:24.959 That's where collaboration breaks down and people are reacting quite sensitively on the. 00:43:27.689 --> 00:43:32.429 This type of behavior or element factor there's also a fragmentation of that 00:43:32.429 --> 00:43:36.109 goal structure right and it becomes more individual goals so that the opposition 00:43:36.109 --> 00:43:41.169 gets gets amplified yeah but now so um, 00:43:42.089 --> 00:43:46.549 we're still in this sort of covet situation as you also described yourself earlier 00:43:46.549 --> 00:43:54.669 do you think that this period has actually told us something fundamental about 00:43:54.669 --> 00:44:00.429 how we collaborate is this It should be extract lessons from the current period. 00:44:01.549 --> 00:44:07.469 Yeah, I think, of course, there's fundamental changes in how we see this collaboration evolving. 00:44:07.729 --> 00:44:14.609 I mean, in the past, you had obviously phone calls, Skype calls, 00:44:14.769 --> 00:44:17.249 what have you, were possible. 00:44:17.489 --> 00:44:22.949 But usually, people were meeting in person in a conference room. 00:44:22.949 --> 00:44:27.029 Lots of internal meetings taking place with people you already know, 00:44:27.209 --> 00:44:31.769 you have seen before, you have a feeling for the other person. 00:44:32.069 --> 00:44:40.249 And there was a lot of waste of time and resources by getting everyone in the 00:44:40.249 --> 00:44:45.109 same room, in particular if you're working across such a big region. 00:44:47.149 --> 00:44:50.769 So just a single meeting for 00:44:50.769 --> 00:44:55.929 an hour per day is already killing the whole day because you are traveling back 00:44:55.929 --> 00:45:02.169 and forth i think this is going away now there will be physical meetings and 00:45:02.169 --> 00:45:06.749 physical interactions and they need to be there where you need to build personal 00:45:06.749 --> 00:45:09.429 trust you You need to have someone, 00:45:09.589 --> 00:45:16.789 really, you have to look into the eyes of your counterpart to be able to get 00:45:16.789 --> 00:45:19.489 a feeling for the situation, for the person. 00:45:19.549 --> 00:45:25.349 I think these tools, which we are using right now, is bridging that to some 00:45:25.349 --> 00:45:31.769 degree, but it will not make personal meetings redundant, in particular not 00:45:31.769 --> 00:45:34.189 in a deal environment where you do M&A, 00:45:35.449 --> 00:45:38.709 you need to develop you need to, 00:45:39.389 --> 00:45:45.149 some people call it you need to eat a steak so basically you know what I mean 00:45:45.149 --> 00:45:51.709 really building a personal rapport but in many cases, 00:45:53.301 --> 00:45:56.221 We will switch to meetings like this one. 00:45:58.221 --> 00:46:02.801 Alexander, this is a very implementational perspective. 00:46:03.281 --> 00:46:08.381 But I could also imagine that if you observe how our governments have been handling 00:46:08.381 --> 00:46:11.881 this crisis, that as an expert in collaboration, you would think, 00:46:11.921 --> 00:46:16.101 well, this could have been done better or this could have been done differently. 00:46:16.321 --> 00:46:18.061 Do you have that impression? 00:46:19.581 --> 00:46:23.121 Like if we would have left it to you and 00:46:23.121 --> 00:46:26.661 your colleagues would we have been coming 00:46:26.661 --> 00:46:31.041 out of this crisis sooner i i 00:46:31.041 --> 00:46:37.841 don't know i mean the the issue with the crisis is that um no one really had 00:46:37.841 --> 00:46:44.861 a recipe at the beginning and a lot was kind of digging in the dark and trying 00:46:44.861 --> 00:46:48.401 things and even Even if you look at the vaccination programs, 00:46:48.841 --> 00:46:58.421 at the time when the vaccines were ordered, none of them was actually existing as an approved product. 00:46:58.921 --> 00:47:04.281 And no manufacturing capability was already available at that point in time. 00:47:04.361 --> 00:47:12.781 So it all had to be built. and you are betting basically on something you cannot 00:47:12.781 --> 00:47:17.101 predict because the outcome of clinical trials, for example, is unpredictable. 00:47:18.421 --> 00:47:21.621 There is some degree of likelihood, maybe, yes, but it's unpredictable. 00:47:22.621 --> 00:47:26.781 So in essence, where we are today is... 00:47:28.410 --> 00:47:37.070 Is an outcome of too many factors to say, okay, I would have clearly a better recipe. 00:47:37.730 --> 00:47:41.190 Maybe I would have been bolder in ordering vaccines. 00:47:41.530 --> 00:47:55.250 Maybe I would have been faster in implementing certain measures to really distance people quicker. 00:47:56.250 --> 00:48:01.050 Yeah, fine, okay. Okay, but that's all in hindsight and we are all smart in hindsight, right? 00:48:01.130 --> 00:48:12.890 So it's very hard to tell, even as of today and with a little hindsight we have on the crisis, 00:48:13.230 --> 00:48:17.170 what really would have made the big difference. 00:48:17.330 --> 00:48:24.530 And we are living in democratic societies with a lot of room for discussion 00:48:24.530 --> 00:48:30.590 and a lot of margin for error and marching in different directions. 00:48:30.810 --> 00:48:34.970 And we, to some degree, have to accept that if you want to retain a free country. 00:48:35.010 --> 00:48:42.730 You can also rule like in China, but then, you know, what's... 00:48:44.790 --> 00:48:48.230 But, you know, what's interesting, though, is that in some sense, 00:48:48.330 --> 00:48:55.430 you also can see that collaboration has not necessarily flourished I think there's 00:48:55.430 --> 00:48:56.430 some real highlights, right? 00:48:56.510 --> 00:49:02.950 I think the way scientists have stepped up to the plate and really delivered is really amazing. 00:49:04.150 --> 00:49:08.770 On the other hand, at the pharma industry level, again, we start to see a more mixed picture. 00:49:09.170 --> 00:49:12.230 And certainly for logistics distribution, I think, 00:49:13.170 --> 00:49:17.550 That could have been handled much better, but okay, fine. This is how it is. 00:49:18.410 --> 00:49:22.790 But now humanity is facing a much broader crisis, which is the ecological crisis 00:49:22.790 --> 00:49:27.590 we're facing for the planet and also our future generation. 00:49:27.890 --> 00:49:38.510 So do you expect, do you believe that humanity overall will be able to ever and on time create 00:49:38.830 --> 00:49:45.750 global collaboration to really address this very existential threat that's facing us? 00:49:47.450 --> 00:49:50.650 Yeah, I'm a little bit more skeptical on that one. 00:49:50.770 --> 00:49:59.250 I think we have a little bit of common sense in most of the European countries in that regard. 00:49:59.910 --> 00:50:05.010 But looking at the global debate, it's very tough to find common ground. 00:50:05.010 --> 00:50:12.910 I mean, the argument from emerging countries, be it China or other countries, 00:50:13.090 --> 00:50:18.090 is clearly that we are coming from a different place. 00:50:18.250 --> 00:50:22.750 And for us, it's more easy to demand restrictions and limit ourselves because 00:50:22.750 --> 00:50:26.310 we already developed and they are just on the journey and they have the right 00:50:26.310 --> 00:50:33.150 to thrive and develop their economy. and they don't want anyone to block that evolution. 00:50:35.130 --> 00:50:42.730 Because in most of the cases, on a short- to mid-term basis, 00:50:42.970 --> 00:50:46.550 it's more expensive to implement environmental protection. 00:50:47.610 --> 00:50:53.910 On a long-term basis, probably the better option, but people don't tend to think long-term. 00:50:54.030 --> 00:50:59.950 They don't tend to think in two or three generations. They may regret by then 00:50:59.950 --> 00:51:01.350 what they've done before. 00:51:01.630 --> 00:51:07.090 And we have a lot of regrets what we've done to our environment here. 00:51:07.810 --> 00:51:13.530 But clearly, that's not how governments think and take. 00:51:14.470 --> 00:51:22.450 And that's why I'm not so optimistic that we get really something achieved on a global scale. 00:51:22.450 --> 00:51:32.510 And again, if we in Europe reduce our CO2 emission by 2%, it's a drop in the 00:51:32.510 --> 00:51:34.930 ocean compared to the global scale. 00:51:35.230 --> 00:51:39.550 So I think it's the right thing to do. 00:51:39.610 --> 00:51:45.750 But again, on a global scale, I'm a little bit skeptic that we'll really achieve 00:51:45.750 --> 00:51:47.150 something over the next few years. 00:51:47.390 --> 00:51:51.970 But now if you would have a magic wand and you could change one thing. 00:51:52.770 --> 00:51:56.910 That would allow humans to collaborate better? What's the one thing you would then change? 00:52:02.142 --> 00:52:08.422 Oh, it's a tough one. I don't want to give away my wish so quickly without proper thinking. 00:52:08.582 --> 00:52:16.642 To be honest, I don't really know what's the missing link. 00:52:16.702 --> 00:52:20.902 Maybe more long-term thinking, more thinking in generations. 00:52:20.962 --> 00:52:31.422 We are all here just a generation to pass through to the next one what we have inherited. 00:52:31.422 --> 00:52:38.282 And if you don't, that's probably the biggest lacking thing that people recognize 00:52:38.282 --> 00:52:41.242 that, that they are not here for their own good. 00:52:43.422 --> 00:52:49.542 And yeah, that would be my wish, maybe. I don't know. I need to talk about it. 00:52:50.082 --> 00:52:53.582 Good. And I will get back to you on that wish. 00:52:53.982 --> 00:52:57.702 But I think it speaks to an issue you mentioned earlier, right? 00:52:57.702 --> 00:53:03.082 That also collaboration breaks down because people don't identify with the common 00:53:03.082 --> 00:53:07.702 goal, but the common goal collapses into a fragmented set of competing goals. 00:53:07.882 --> 00:53:13.902 And I think this is very interesting to see that I think there's a naivete on 00:53:13.902 --> 00:53:20.762 our side that we believe people have similar education, similar expectations and norms as we do. 00:53:20.902 --> 00:53:23.342 And therefore, we expect that they 00:53:23.342 --> 00:53:27.462 might also adhere to our ideas about democracy and fairness and so on. 00:53:27.702 --> 00:53:34.702 But that's just not the case. And if you are a farmer in sub-Saharan Africa 00:53:34.702 --> 00:53:39.062 and you are practically no subsistence level, 00:53:39.622 --> 00:53:45.762 should we expect that person to immediately understand democracy and understand 00:53:45.762 --> 00:53:50.302 fairness and global warming and the challenges that go along with it? 00:53:50.302 --> 00:53:57.102 So I think there's this huge discrepancy between levels of expectation and knowledge 00:53:57.102 --> 00:54:02.162 and also appreciation of these challenges, which is asking a lot, 00:54:02.242 --> 00:54:05.082 I think, from us, from us Europeans, 00:54:05.502 --> 00:54:09.282 who indeed have profited, of course, more than others maybe over the centuries. 00:54:09.882 --> 00:54:13.362 But now we're facing all the same challenge. But I think it's really this issue 00:54:13.362 --> 00:54:18.082 of not being able to find the common goals and communicate the common goals. 00:54:18.082 --> 00:54:23.562 And what's interesting, of course, if we take your experience as a reference, 00:54:23.842 --> 00:54:28.542 there you'll see there's this balancing between the goal structure of an organization 00:54:28.542 --> 00:54:30.462 and the regulation around it. 00:54:30.642 --> 00:54:35.702 But of course, for global warming, the probability to find regulation that will 00:54:35.702 --> 00:54:38.962 work globally is very small. 00:54:39.322 --> 00:54:43.562 So it really has to be intrinsic to organizations. And there we see it actually 00:54:43.562 --> 00:54:47.522 over at the smaller scale, that's really difficult to accomplish. 00:54:48.576 --> 00:54:54.776 So it's a massive challenge. Well, my personal view actually is that just we 00:54:54.776 --> 00:54:59.436 have to augment human cognition, that our cognitive machinery is not sufficiently 00:54:59.436 --> 00:55:02.496 prepared to deal with the timescales, as you described, 00:55:02.796 --> 00:55:06.096 to really appreciate the problem and respond to it properly. 00:55:06.356 --> 00:55:08.536 But that's another discussion. 00:55:08.896 --> 00:55:12.896 But humans, of course, evolved to collaborate at a certain scale. 00:55:12.896 --> 00:55:20.016 I mean, evolution prepared us for running around in the savannah and maybe cooperate 00:55:20.016 --> 00:55:23.796 with dozens of others and not more, right? 00:55:23.856 --> 00:55:29.376 So our brain has, in that sense, certain biases and deficits that are not necessarily 00:55:29.376 --> 00:55:32.516 helping to operate at the scale we have to operate it now. 00:55:34.376 --> 00:55:39.456 And that's part of our evolution, I would say. I mean, a few years back, 00:55:39.636 --> 00:55:42.976 obviously, communication was much more difficult, 00:55:43.196 --> 00:55:50.696 fragmented, and very much relying on personal interactions, which is not possible 00:55:50.696 --> 00:55:57.756 at the same scale like we communicate now with this technology where we have video calls, 00:55:58.036 --> 00:56:00.396 pulling people in from various... 00:56:01.276 --> 00:56:08.156 And a minute later or half an hour later, I have a call with a completely different 00:56:08.156 --> 00:56:10.396 setup from completely different continents. 00:56:10.596 --> 00:56:16.816 And this is basically going in a row as a whole day from morning to evening. I know. 00:56:17.316 --> 00:56:22.536 So I think we are quite adaptive to things, fortunately. 00:56:24.956 --> 00:56:30.196 Oh, we are. This is definitely true. True. So Ferdinand, do you have a question for Alexander? 00:56:34.336 --> 00:56:38.236 No, I think it was a fascinating discussion listening to you. 00:56:38.336 --> 00:56:42.276 And it turns out that I had noted down some questions, but you've asked them. 00:56:43.056 --> 00:56:46.956 So I crossed them out. I'm psychic. Very interesting. 00:56:49.476 --> 00:56:53.596 So Alexander, I would like to thank you very much for this conversation. 00:56:53.596 --> 00:56:59.356 It was really very insightful and a great start for our podcast series. 00:56:59.616 --> 00:57:04.576 Hi, you listened to one of our podcasts in the series on collaboration produced 00:57:04.576 --> 00:57:07.476 by the Ernst Trommel Forum and the Convergent Science Network. 00:57:08.196 --> 00:57:11.156 You can find more episodes on our website.