WEBVTT 00:00:03.537 --> 00:00:10.517 This is the Convergent Science Network podcast. Leading researchers in the domain 00:00:10.517 --> 00:00:16.797 of neuroscience, brain theory and technology are interviewed by Paul Vershoor and Tony Prescott. 00:00:18.917 --> 00:00:24.177 So this is Paul Vershoor at the Barcelona Cognition Brain Technology Summer 00:00:24.177 --> 00:00:30.917 School speaking with Joseph Bar-Cohen, active in the field of biomimetics for a long time. 00:00:32.197 --> 00:00:37.377 And in your presentation this morning, you started out with sketching a bit 00:00:37.377 --> 00:00:40.097 the philosophy of biomimetics, right? Why would you do biomimetics? 00:00:40.597 --> 00:00:46.277 Also, as an engineer solving practical problems, where does biomimetics come in? How does it help? 00:00:47.837 --> 00:00:55.717 Biomimetic is hard to define it as a field because what is it? 00:00:55.937 --> 00:01:00.017 It's everything. Everything we do has some roots in biomimetics. 00:01:00.277 --> 00:01:03.577 The clothes we wear, if you think about the spider, 00:01:04.297 --> 00:01:13.817 and the way it nets things, I imagine that the primitives have seen this net 00:01:13.817 --> 00:01:19.117 and saw the idea of making fibers and netting them in the way they so eventually 00:01:19.117 --> 00:01:21.897 it led to the clothing um so. 00:01:24.714 --> 00:01:31.874 As an idea to copy nature, definitely we can look for what else we can learn. 00:01:32.074 --> 00:01:37.654 At least in my lab, we're looking at a drill that can go drill deep. 00:01:37.754 --> 00:01:42.194 We call it go-fill, so that it does basically what the go-fill does. 00:01:43.174 --> 00:01:47.614 And also another aspect is we're doing what we call health monitoring, 00:01:47.614 --> 00:01:55.454 In terms that is drawn from our health monitoring and basically we're looking 00:01:55.454 --> 00:01:59.654 at tubing and making sure that they are healthy. 00:01:59.934 --> 00:02:05.774 So those are specific areas that right now I'm focusing on that are drawn from 00:02:05.774 --> 00:02:09.234 the field of biomimetics. 00:02:09.514 --> 00:02:14.054 Right. But now what makes an approach biomimetic in your approach? 00:02:15.494 --> 00:02:22.654 The approach that is biobimedic is the concept of, at least a specific one of, 00:02:23.434 --> 00:02:30.814 the gophil, is basically the ability to remove, not as a drill that just keep 00:02:30.814 --> 00:02:35.154 going and remove materials as it drills continuously. 00:02:36.214 --> 00:02:40.574 This one, what we call a wire line, it goes in, Then grab material, 00:02:40.954 --> 00:02:45.734 gets out, throw this material, and keep going through the ground. 00:02:46.834 --> 00:02:52.174 That's a biomimetic concept. Right. If someone didn't know that that's what 00:02:52.174 --> 00:02:55.054 it is, of course, we would not have named it gopher. Right. 00:02:55.894 --> 00:02:59.954 But now, for what are you building this robot? What's Gov going to do in the end? 00:03:01.654 --> 00:03:07.814 This is not a robot. But in terms of robots, I am working on, 00:03:08.714 --> 00:03:10.634 at least at this point, it's a proposal. 00:03:10.694 --> 00:03:13.974 We worked on a rover like that, that has legs. 00:03:15.214 --> 00:03:24.354 This legged robot is biomimetic robot. And we are using a drill that does not 00:03:24.354 --> 00:03:25.694 require high action load, 00:03:26.894 --> 00:03:35.754 so that it can anchor itself as it climb steep walls The mountains, if you want, and cliffs. 00:03:36.074 --> 00:03:39.254 So that is a direction that we're also taking. 00:03:40.334 --> 00:03:44.594 And hopefully we'll land on different planets with it. Right, and explore them. 00:03:46.214 --> 00:03:51.274 So climbing cliffs, to what extent... So you showed us that there you look at 00:03:51.274 --> 00:03:53.954 mountain goats as a source of inspiration. 00:03:55.374 --> 00:03:58.314 But how does the mountain goat help you to build a climbing robot? 00:04:00.669 --> 00:04:04.849 Number one, it is possible to climb with a rover that has legs. 00:04:05.209 --> 00:04:09.329 If, you know, same thing about flying. 00:04:09.809 --> 00:04:15.529 People looked at insects and birds, and they know it's possible to fly. 00:04:15.649 --> 00:04:17.229 We just need to do the homework. 00:04:18.129 --> 00:04:23.249 If we look at the mountain goat, maybe I'm not sure. We haven't made it to climb walls yet. 00:04:23.529 --> 00:04:29.469 We just did preliminary experiments of making the foundations to allow us to do that. 00:04:29.469 --> 00:04:37.109 What we may have to do, just like the other people who are doing a lobster and looking at lobster, 00:04:37.389 --> 00:04:41.509 how it solves its problems, we may have to go to the zoo and check with the 00:04:41.509 --> 00:04:47.729 goat to see what does it do when there is specific conditions and how it analyzes 00:04:47.729 --> 00:04:49.409 the situation and climbs. 00:04:50.229 --> 00:04:53.509 Right. And of course, it doesn't anchor. We are going to anchor. 00:04:53.649 --> 00:04:54.989 There's some advantage. 00:04:55.529 --> 00:05:01.829 So I'm wondering how they do that. Mm-hmm. So that means that in some sense 00:05:01.829 --> 00:05:04.789 you're also saying, look, the current state of the art, if we just talk about 00:05:04.789 --> 00:05:08.349 our more standard engineering approach to our robotics, 00:05:08.709 --> 00:05:15.269 if I look at how you pursue solving problems like now climbing cliffs, 00:05:15.909 --> 00:05:19.529 that also implies you're saying, well, in some sense we're missing something 00:05:19.529 --> 00:05:23.809 in our standard approaches to solving these kinds of real-world problems with robots. 00:05:24.189 --> 00:05:28.069 So what to you is this missing ingredient right now? 00:05:31.129 --> 00:05:38.589 We will have the difficulty of navigating and what we call negotiating the terrain. 00:05:40.589 --> 00:05:43.609 A goat does it much faster than we probably will do. 00:05:45.409 --> 00:05:48.229 The degrees of freedom that we probably will 00:05:48.229 --> 00:05:51.149 have equivalent to the goat 00:05:51.149 --> 00:05:54.149 um but how all 00:05:54.149 --> 00:06:00.309 this eye hand coordination that the goat or leg coordination right the goat 00:06:00.309 --> 00:06:06.889 does it's for us it's going to be not going to be so easy and hopefully we will 00:06:06.889 --> 00:06:13.269 take it as a reference for what is possible right but there's something else speed and performance. 00:06:13.669 --> 00:06:18.869 Another animal that you highlighted was the octopus. So why do you find the 00:06:18.869 --> 00:06:20.109 octopus so interesting? 00:06:20.669 --> 00:06:26.769 It's quite fascinating. You know, here I can mention ideas that sound like science fiction. 00:06:26.969 --> 00:06:30.689 You know, there's the Terminator 2, the movie. 00:06:31.709 --> 00:06:38.809 And, well, the octopus can go through tubes and hide itself, camouflage itself. 00:06:39.089 --> 00:06:46.729 If you can think of a robot, that can go under doors, hide like a carpet, 00:06:47.009 --> 00:06:49.289 and just look for bad guys. 00:06:51.001 --> 00:06:54.921 A police job or a military job. Sounds like science fiction, 00:06:55.521 --> 00:06:59.281 but that's what the octopus does, part of its living. 00:06:59.701 --> 00:07:03.601 You know? So this is something that is fascinating, possible. 00:07:04.361 --> 00:07:08.621 We don't have the tools to do that. There are some works that have been done 00:07:08.621 --> 00:07:15.141 on the camouflage, but having an ability to squeeze a body of a robot that can 00:07:15.141 --> 00:07:17.241 go through a narrow tube, we don't have that. 00:07:17.441 --> 00:07:23.061 No. If anything, it could be an EAP. If we have electroactive polymers that 00:07:23.061 --> 00:07:29.461 can help in the shaping, this could become possible, but we're not there yet. 00:07:29.641 --> 00:07:31.381 Right. We're far from that point. 00:07:31.801 --> 00:07:36.141 Yeah, so also the octopus was a little bit the stepping stone into really thinking 00:07:36.141 --> 00:07:38.041 more systematically about materials, right? 00:07:38.081 --> 00:07:45.061 Like what are the possibilities today of building these highly compliant and 00:07:45.061 --> 00:07:51.581 robust materials that we see used in nature? so what's the state of the art 00:07:51.581 --> 00:07:52.581 and where did we come from? 00:07:52.981 --> 00:07:58.481 Well, put it this way we do have some material that could help us we cannot 00:07:58.481 --> 00:08:03.561 copy nature exactly there's no way even airplanes it's not exactly flying by 00:08:03.561 --> 00:08:08.861 flapping wings it flies with jet engines as the best and that's why we beat 00:08:08.861 --> 00:08:10.821 nature in every way possible. 00:08:11.521 --> 00:08:16.721 We may not going to do the same thing or same tricks that the octopus does But 00:08:16.721 --> 00:08:20.601 we have materials that allow us to have controlled rigidity, for example. 00:08:20.901 --> 00:08:23.521 An example is electro-rheological liquids. 00:08:24.161 --> 00:08:29.381 They allow you to have controlled rigidity. You can make a structure that is 00:08:29.381 --> 00:08:35.661 rigid because this liquid is becoming rigidized in different areas if you need. 00:08:35.841 --> 00:08:38.781 And if you need to make it just fluid, you make it fluid. 00:08:39.061 --> 00:08:44.221 So this combination of controlled rigidity may allow us to do things like that. 00:08:45.150 --> 00:08:50.810 But to what extent is it biomimetic? The fact that it is inspired by the octopus 00:08:50.810 --> 00:08:57.030 to crawl through tubes or through narrow spaces, that is not referring to the 00:08:57.030 --> 00:08:59.370 ability to create camouflage. 00:08:59.810 --> 00:09:03.650 The camouflage capability, there are people who are working on a display that 00:09:03.650 --> 00:09:07.790 is plastic, basically totally polymer and making display. 00:09:07.790 --> 00:09:14.510 So with that, if you have a surface that is basically a display, 00:09:14.830 --> 00:09:17.070 you can make it to do everything. 00:09:18.050 --> 00:09:22.530 The cameras are tiny nowadays. You can make it copy the neighborhood and basically 00:09:22.530 --> 00:09:25.730 come up like yourself, just like the octopus. 00:09:26.230 --> 00:09:33.890 Right. But it means for you, the biomimetics is in copying or realizing the 00:09:33.890 --> 00:09:35.870 functional properties of the system. 00:09:35.870 --> 00:09:41.190 So for instance, for you, it's not necessary that the way the material controls 00:09:41.190 --> 00:09:46.830 its rigidity is done at a mechanistic level at the way that approximates the octopus a solution. 00:09:47.050 --> 00:09:50.730 It can be a different kind of solution like with these special materials you 00:09:50.730 --> 00:09:55.430 talked about that can change their rigidity in a controllable fashion. 00:09:55.770 --> 00:10:00.030 Right. I mean, copying nature many times is impossible. 00:10:00.030 --> 00:10:08.790 Possible so we have to see what we can do and copying functionality is a way 00:10:08.790 --> 00:10:13.350 even electroactive polymers they are not they are called artificial muscles 00:10:13.350 --> 00:10:16.910 but they are performance and functionality, 00:10:18.250 --> 00:10:25.110 similar not mechanic mechanism similar uh we don't have this capability of uh 00:10:25.110 --> 00:10:31.430 of a structure to be consistent of those tiny cells that rejuvenate themselves. 00:10:33.010 --> 00:10:36.530 So when a structure fails, it just fails. I mean, if you have crack, 00:10:36.670 --> 00:10:41.310 that is self-repair people have been working on. 00:10:41.450 --> 00:10:45.250 It's not exactly, but it's inspired by nature. 00:10:45.430 --> 00:10:50.230 The idea is that you can create repair mechanisms that the structure will repair itself. 00:10:50.790 --> 00:10:56.610 You know, just like we are. Well, when we are injured, our body takes care of the fixing. Right. 00:10:57.010 --> 00:11:00.090 So now, when you describe these kinds of biomimetic materials, 00:11:00.590 --> 00:11:05.390 you made a distinction between, let's say, two course categories of approaches. 00:11:05.950 --> 00:11:08.990 One more anchored in physics and the other one more anchored in chemistry. 00:11:09.230 --> 00:11:13.790 And I thought it was a really nice separation or also a classification of a 00:11:13.790 --> 00:11:14.770 whole bunch of different methods. 00:11:15.850 --> 00:11:20.170 So what's the problem you actually tried to solve with that kind of categorization? 00:11:20.170 --> 00:11:27.750 Well, the idea was to try to help engineers, scientists who are not chemists, 00:11:27.830 --> 00:11:32.270 who want to step into the field of electroactive polymers and do some work there. 00:11:32.990 --> 00:11:35.570 It makes it easier if they know, 00:11:35.750 --> 00:11:39.890 okay, if it's ionic, this is the kind of properties I should expect. If. 00:11:41.441 --> 00:11:46.781 Electronic, or we call it field activated, these are other properties I can expect. 00:11:47.161 --> 00:11:54.241 Then you don't have to worry about knowing that, you know, polymer so-and-so is whatever it is. 00:11:54.321 --> 00:11:58.401 You don't have to remember there's a lot of polymers and derivatives of them. 00:11:58.481 --> 00:12:03.641 If you're a chemist, you know what you're doing. This is your field, 00:12:03.681 --> 00:12:05.061 and you feel comfortable. 00:12:06.201 --> 00:12:11.381 But our problem is, this is a relatively small field. And if we want to draw 00:12:11.381 --> 00:12:18.541 into it more people to work in it, we don't want to make their entry a hard one. 00:12:18.981 --> 00:12:23.041 We want to make it as easy as possible, and they can be comfortable with whatever 00:12:23.041 --> 00:12:25.661 they can bring. This is a multidisciplinary field. 00:12:26.241 --> 00:12:29.901 So if they can bring physics, if they can bring electronics, 00:12:30.301 --> 00:12:35.801 what I want them to do is focus on that capability and just quickly be able 00:12:35.801 --> 00:12:38.661 to work with the field, with what is available. level. 00:12:39.161 --> 00:12:47.181 I didn't mention at the presentation that I have a website where if you want to know how to make it, 00:12:47.381 --> 00:12:52.941 there is a recipe that I managed to get from the people who invented those materials, 00:12:52.961 --> 00:12:56.981 who came up with this material, who were generous enough to give us a recipe. 00:12:57.241 --> 00:12:59.341 So if you want to make it, there is this recipe. 00:12:59.841 --> 00:13:04.981 If you don't want to make it, I also have another website where you You can find where to get it. 00:13:05.461 --> 00:13:09.441 It's still most of those places are custom made. Actually, all of them are. 00:13:09.561 --> 00:13:11.721 We don't have commercial products yet. 00:13:12.801 --> 00:13:18.301 So when you buy, it's a little bit more expensive because it's still one of a kind. 00:13:18.601 --> 00:13:24.141 So when you order, they have to make it for you rather than they already made 00:13:24.141 --> 00:13:26.901 millions and the cost is divided, unfortunately. 00:13:27.821 --> 00:13:31.701 Sure. But now what are the key features of this, let's say, physics-based approach? 00:13:33.361 --> 00:13:38.441 To artificial muscle. It is not just necessarily a physics base. It's a type of material. 00:13:38.761 --> 00:13:46.041 Okay. There are, as I mentioned, some of those materials that are driven by just electric field. 00:13:46.561 --> 00:13:49.721 By the electric field make them respond. 00:13:50.741 --> 00:13:53.541 These have become, these are, geological liquid is one of them, 00:13:53.621 --> 00:13:59.161 where you get rigidity. or they contract or change shape or whatever happened 00:13:59.161 --> 00:14:05.481 to them as a mechanical result of this electrical field stimulation. 00:14:07.125 --> 00:14:10.745 It takes a lot of voltage. It could be in the thousands of volts. 00:14:11.085 --> 00:14:17.925 As opposed to the chemistry type that are required at a relatively low voltage, 00:14:18.925 --> 00:14:20.545 and they aren't chemistry in action. 00:14:21.205 --> 00:14:26.285 When you subject them to electric field, it's not the electric field that drives 00:14:26.285 --> 00:14:28.165 them, it's the current that goes through them. 00:14:28.865 --> 00:14:32.585 And therefore, it doesn't matter how thick. 00:14:34.445 --> 00:14:40.665 The same two volts will do the same effect if it is a big tank or a small tank, 00:14:40.845 --> 00:14:46.045 as opposed to what we call the physics base, like the highly stimulated. 00:14:46.565 --> 00:14:54.865 But now, let's say I want to actuate my robot arm with an artificial muscle system. 00:14:56.085 --> 00:14:59.305 Why would I choose one approach over the other? 00:15:02.585 --> 00:15:06.805 Electronic type or field-activated type, the advantage they have, 00:15:06.805 --> 00:15:11.705 if you walk it trial, you don't have to worry about suddenly the material dries 00:15:11.705 --> 00:15:14.685 on you and dies, if we use a quote-unquote. 00:15:15.545 --> 00:15:19.345 It is able to sustain position. 00:15:20.345 --> 00:15:26.305 So you don't need to have power if it doesn't move. Just having it maintain the position, 00:15:26.505 --> 00:15:35.725 you need to supplement the drift, the creeping charges that go full, 00:15:36.724 --> 00:15:41.104 But otherwise, it is basically freebie. 00:15:41.284 --> 00:15:45.084 You can put it in that position. For robotics, it's important. 00:15:46.444 --> 00:15:51.304 Only when you move that one, you need power. As opposed to everything else, 00:15:51.444 --> 00:15:55.104 I mean, when you talk about the other group, everything is the opposite. 00:15:55.364 --> 00:16:00.204 They dry when you put them in, you know, different polymers. 00:16:00.204 --> 00:16:06.704 The conductive type or what is called conducting polymers can sustain position, 00:16:07.024 --> 00:16:11.644 but you have to do, oh, and some of them can be done at dry condition, 00:16:11.924 --> 00:16:13.584 but it is not the whole goal. 00:16:14.504 --> 00:16:17.864 Most of them are suffering from those weaknesses. 00:16:18.404 --> 00:16:25.464 Right. So now if I have these active polymers, I can build my muscle and what 00:16:25.464 --> 00:16:27.364 kind of force can we generate today? 00:16:27.504 --> 00:16:30.944 What's the state of the art there? Well, to simplify it, 00:16:31.124 --> 00:16:37.924 there were demonstrations at the conference that I chaired in San Diego where 00:16:37.924 --> 00:16:47.024 the highest anyone was hanging mass on and able to raise and drop was in the level of 10 kilogram. 00:16:47.864 --> 00:16:52.304 So that gives you an idea what kind of forces you can generate with a practical 00:16:52.304 --> 00:16:58.524 size. But then how much of this material do I need to lift 10 kilograms or to 00:16:58.524 --> 00:17:00.264 pull 10 kilograms on the string? 00:17:04.404 --> 00:17:13.624 The Gruppenemper created those actuators in 2005, and they needed ropes that 00:17:13.624 --> 00:17:17.324 are about a centimeter diameter by about... 00:17:18.351 --> 00:17:22.511 They're 20 centimeters long, and they used a group of those. 00:17:23.091 --> 00:17:27.191 If I'm not wrong, something like 20 of them just thought that they could hang 00:17:27.191 --> 00:17:32.811 bottled water of 20 kilograms. 00:17:33.871 --> 00:17:37.451 Oh, I'm sorry, 20 liters, if I'm not wrong. Those are the numbers. 00:17:37.671 --> 00:17:39.711 But just to give you a rough idea. 00:17:40.011 --> 00:17:45.431 Right. But are we in a range that you also have a power density of this material 00:17:45.431 --> 00:17:47.991 that starts to become comparable to what we see in nature? 00:17:48.631 --> 00:17:55.811 Yes, we do have the power density, but on the low, on the small scale, 00:17:56.131 --> 00:18:02.291 and it is not, if you, in order to make it intuitive, the comparison, 00:18:02.571 --> 00:18:04.751 I have this arm wrestling challenge, 00:18:05.171 --> 00:18:08.531 because it gives you a gauge where we are. 00:18:08.531 --> 00:18:15.271 And when we compare a system where you have a control and the driver and electronics 00:18:15.271 --> 00:18:17.951 and everything combined to a system, 00:18:17.991 --> 00:18:24.211 rather than someone sat down in the lab and just measured somehow how the actuator does it, 00:18:24.371 --> 00:18:33.531 then we are at the point of one order of magnitude weaker performance of the 00:18:33.531 --> 00:18:36.831 actuators, the speed of the actuator, the force of the actuator, 00:18:36.831 --> 00:18:38.271 the speed of the actuator. 00:18:38.531 --> 00:18:42.131 So we have some way to go, quite a bit of way to go. Okay. 00:18:44.411 --> 00:18:50.591 But now the next step up, it might be nice to have these muscle type solutions 00:18:50.591 --> 00:18:55.091 for actuation, but it raises a whole bunch of new questions about control. 00:18:55.371 --> 00:18:59.531 Because in some sense, it goes far beyond or takes a completely different form 00:18:59.531 --> 00:19:03.511 of control than what we would be used to in robotics. 00:19:03.671 --> 00:19:07.011 So how do you see that pan out? 00:19:08.811 --> 00:19:12.451 Well, we will have to learn how to control these materials. 00:19:12.551 --> 00:19:16.391 People have been working on a control and there's a lot of sessions in the conference 00:19:16.391 --> 00:19:20.511 on EAP in San Diego that are dedicated to the topic of control. 00:19:21.191 --> 00:19:27.151 Just for simplicity of intuitive feeling about it, you walk in the street and 00:19:27.151 --> 00:19:30.431 your hands are not rigid attached to your body. 00:19:30.531 --> 00:19:35.331 They just swing without doing anything about it. Just like a pendulum. 00:19:35.551 --> 00:19:38.951 And you don't even think about it. And then when you want to make a watch, 00:19:39.611 --> 00:19:42.451 same hands suddenly become precision tools. 00:19:43.851 --> 00:19:51.931 So we have this ability to control this flexible hands because we have bones 00:19:51.931 --> 00:19:53.311 in them, make it helpful. 00:19:53.871 --> 00:20:00.911 We do need to understand how those materials work and somehow be able to do the needed control. 00:20:01.791 --> 00:20:06.511 We have to remember that if a muscle like that activated an object, 00:20:06.831 --> 00:20:13.391 the damping is not as rigid as if it was a piezoelectric material moving something. 00:20:13.731 --> 00:20:16.371 So we have to take those into account. Right. 00:20:18.522 --> 00:20:21.522 I'm sure with time, we'll be able to deal with it much better. Right. 00:20:22.122 --> 00:20:27.802 So now, as sort of the current state of the art in this field of humanoid robotics, 00:20:28.142 --> 00:20:33.722 we could take Robonaut, which NASA is now just testing in space. 00:20:36.602 --> 00:20:42.042 So what can Robonaut really do today? What are sort of the capabilities of these systems? 00:20:43.102 --> 00:20:48.542 Robonaut is not driven by EEP. It has motors in it. And, of course, 00:20:48.582 --> 00:20:54.662 the mass is significant because those motors are not lightweight like EAP. 00:20:56.042 --> 00:21:00.062 The capabilities you probably could see in the internet. There's quite a big 00:21:00.062 --> 00:21:03.302 description of the Robonaut and what it can do. 00:21:03.442 --> 00:21:07.962 And, of course, hopefully we'll see it soon in performance in space. Right. 00:21:09.222 --> 00:21:15.462 So it is not related directly to my work. There's so much I want to talk about it. 00:21:16.842 --> 00:21:20.862 But as I said it would be nice if we could drive it with the ERP. 00:21:21.222 --> 00:21:26.542 So the question is how far in the future do you see that link up happen that 00:21:26.542 --> 00:21:33.482 we can look at let's say robots we can really use effectively in different tasks 00:21:33.482 --> 00:21:36.022 that are now driven by these more biomimetic materials? 00:21:37.322 --> 00:21:41.022 Predicting the future is very difficult. At least one thing I can say. 00:21:41.502 --> 00:21:49.742 I see the time to this is happening is getting shorter now because more large 00:21:49.742 --> 00:21:53.122 industries are now backing producers of EAP. 00:21:54.082 --> 00:22:01.842 There's a group in Denmark, there's a group in Switzerland, and there's a group in Germany. 00:22:03.237 --> 00:22:06.977 U.S. and San Francisco, called Artificial Muscle. 00:22:07.117 --> 00:22:12.637 And the specific one, I will mention the one in Artificial Muscle, 00:22:13.377 --> 00:22:17.617 where Bear, the drug maker, is behind him. 00:22:17.677 --> 00:22:22.717 He purchased this company, so they have good backing, and they're starting to 00:22:22.717 --> 00:22:23.717 make commercial products. 00:22:24.397 --> 00:22:32.817 Once we see commercial products coming, that is a major step because we will 00:22:32.817 --> 00:22:38.277 start seeing funding resulting from the profit of selling EAP, 00:22:39.077 --> 00:22:46.097 making companies more receptive to invest in this area because they see return on investment. 00:22:46.417 --> 00:22:49.977 Hopefully they will see return on investment because if it's not, 00:22:50.117 --> 00:22:55.297 of course they will be reluctant to put money into something that will take another 20 years. 00:22:55.557 --> 00:22:58.417 And of course with time things will happen. 00:22:58.637 --> 00:23:06.197 Even laser, When it was invented, the lasers were huge, applications were very 00:23:06.197 --> 00:23:07.797 limited, and look at that. 00:23:07.897 --> 00:23:11.777 Now they are pointers and readers of CD and DVD. 00:23:12.197 --> 00:23:18.097 You just name it, where it went and how inexpensive they were, 00:23:18.217 --> 00:23:21.917 they became, as opposed to where they used to be years back. 00:23:22.137 --> 00:23:27.057 Right. So hopefully we'll see similar success to this field. 00:23:27.917 --> 00:23:35.377 Right. So you're saying, so you're coming out with a book very soon about robots, right? 00:23:35.757 --> 00:23:41.017 About biomedics. It includes chapters about robotics, include about marine, 00:23:41.297 --> 00:23:47.877 include about EEP, the latest applications, including braille displays, 00:23:48.277 --> 00:23:53.097 active braille, or we call them refreshable braille displays. place. 00:23:53.277 --> 00:23:58.937 What has been done with the electronic departments towards making them? 00:23:59.157 --> 00:24:04.097 But previously, fairly recently actually, and you're a fast writer, 00:24:04.337 --> 00:24:08.997 you also had a book that was called The Coming Robot Revolution, right? 00:24:09.877 --> 00:24:13.557 Right. The Coming. Yes, The Coming Robot Revolution. 00:24:14.077 --> 00:24:18.797 So what's the shape of that revolution you have in mind? 00:24:20.305 --> 00:24:25.245 The biomimetics is about the whole field in general, not necessarily. 00:24:25.845 --> 00:24:30.965 It's more about innovation and invention that resulted from biomimetics. 00:24:31.145 --> 00:24:35.425 The book about robotics was specifically about human-like robots. 00:24:35.985 --> 00:24:43.405 And just to tell the audience the inside story, just the publisher didn't want 00:24:43.405 --> 00:24:45.385 to have a name human-like robots. 00:24:45.785 --> 00:24:49.785 They wanted it to be revolution, to have buzzwords like that. 00:24:50.305 --> 00:24:56.265 They even wanted to have a picture of a robot with a knife or a gun or something. And I said, no way. 00:24:57.025 --> 00:25:01.825 I wanted, I was willing to go with this picture the way, if you look at the 00:25:01.825 --> 00:25:04.145 internet, you'll see the picture. That was okay with me. 00:25:05.205 --> 00:25:10.905 And basically what the message there is, we are now slowly learning to live 00:25:10.905 --> 00:25:13.325 with robots as our way of life. 00:25:13.565 --> 00:25:18.125 We're just making them human-like and just shaping the capability. 00:25:18.125 --> 00:25:25.365 We already have ability to see with the machines, and actually they use them to recognize people. 00:25:26.045 --> 00:25:31.765 We're using them to recognize speech, and now you call the bank, 00:25:31.765 --> 00:25:36.705 and you can make transactions just by talking to your phone, through your phone. 00:25:37.885 --> 00:25:44.305 We are at the level that this robot can recognize up to 1,000 words or even 00:25:44.305 --> 00:25:45.605 more, some claim even more. 00:25:45.825 --> 00:25:51.285 That is not bad. And so there are stores, at least in the U.S., 00:25:51.285 --> 00:25:56.185 that grocery store and hardware store where you just shop yourself. 00:25:56.505 --> 00:26:00.665 I mean, you take your product, scan them, and the machine tell you what to do. 00:26:00.905 --> 00:26:04.525 It asks you to give your credit cards. 00:26:04.885 --> 00:26:08.745 And everything is done electronically with a machine. You don't talk to anyone. 00:26:08.745 --> 00:26:13.385 And people mostly prefer that because I can do it faster than I have someone 00:26:13.385 --> 00:26:18.185 at the cashier scanning my product and then ask me for a pocketed card and then get my signature. 00:26:18.685 --> 00:26:24.165 Everything is done electronically. So we're slowly liking that kind of approach. 00:26:24.685 --> 00:26:28.645 Soon, when maybe you go to a restaurant and the person who comes to take your 00:26:28.645 --> 00:26:30.205 order will be just a robot. 00:26:30.205 --> 00:26:35.465 You know, and then you will feel more comfortable because there will be all 00:26:35.465 --> 00:26:40.585 the time around you when you need them rather than vanish and who knows when 00:26:40.585 --> 00:26:43.205 they show up to ask you what do you want if you need anything. 00:26:43.485 --> 00:26:44.565 There's some advantages. 00:26:46.502 --> 00:26:51.222 And so two things are happening. Evolution of improvements. 00:26:52.542 --> 00:26:57.702 We're getting used to them, recognize their need. However, we are not where we want it to be. 00:26:57.802 --> 00:27:03.542 If you look at science fiction books, by now they were expecting to have robots 00:27:03.542 --> 00:27:05.042 everywhere. We're not there. 00:27:05.502 --> 00:27:11.662 And to some extent, I think we need to do it slowly because of this revolution of robots. 00:27:11.762 --> 00:27:14.622 And that's basically the revolution I'm talking about. and there is a chapter 00:27:14.622 --> 00:27:18.702 totally about this issue of ethics and things to worry about this robot. 00:27:19.142 --> 00:27:22.982 Because while they can be very helpful, and there are already quite a bit of 00:27:22.982 --> 00:27:24.882 development, they can be dangerous. 00:27:25.902 --> 00:27:31.942 You know, if someone clones you, and you can be watching TV, 00:27:32.102 --> 00:27:37.742 watching the news, suddenly breaking news, and you see yourself robbing a bank, 00:27:38.582 --> 00:27:39.822 and you're sitting at home. 00:27:39.822 --> 00:27:45.062 Someone copied you, and this robot will leave on purpose your fingerprint. 00:27:45.582 --> 00:27:51.662 It will have your DNA scattered everywhere because they copied you and cloned you very quickly. 00:27:52.122 --> 00:27:55.202 And what would you do? And they can even make it worse. 00:27:55.722 --> 00:27:59.942 Mass produce you 100 times, and you can rob all the banks of the city. 00:28:00.202 --> 00:28:01.502 What would you do about that? 00:28:02.082 --> 00:28:05.342 You know, talking about stealing your identity with credit cards, 00:28:06.042 --> 00:28:10.842 This is just a minor problem compared to have robots that have you completely. 00:28:11.142 --> 00:28:16.582 No one will believe you when you show up at the police to know that you are you, not a robot. 00:28:17.122 --> 00:28:22.162 I mean, things that you see on video movies are starting slowly to become reality. 00:28:22.902 --> 00:28:27.742 And of course, you always have concern. We naturally are afraid of reality. 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:33.939 You know, something looking like human. My daughter, when she was young, 00:28:33.999 --> 00:28:37.719 we bought her a doll that walking and singing. 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:43.099 And we thought she would be happy and hug her maybe. She was scared out of her mind. 00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:51.479 And not only her, our grandson. My wife went with him when he was a three-year-old to Disney. 00:28:51.679 --> 00:28:54.379 He was scared out of their mind when he saw those robots. 00:28:54.679 --> 00:28:58.859 And he wanted to get out before we know what happened. And so there is something 00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:02.039 natural, fundamental to us about this fear. 00:29:03.299 --> 00:29:07.679 And, you know, it's, how do you explain that? But, you know, 00:29:07.739 --> 00:29:10.919 it's basically just looking like us and that's become bad. 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:16.319 Because they don't have a problem when you give them a doll without motion or 00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:19.879 dog toys or all those toys like cows. 00:29:20.119 --> 00:29:23.879 But they're afraid when it looks like human. Right. But now there are two things 00:29:23.879 --> 00:29:27.899 about this. On the one hand, this is not necessarily going to happen tomorrow, right? 00:29:27.939 --> 00:29:31.899 Because to go from ubiquitous computing, the examples you mentioned, 00:29:32.139 --> 00:29:39.099 to really integrated, actuated systems that are also psychologically and morphologically 00:29:39.099 --> 00:29:42.919 plausible, we still have a few steps, right, to go there. 00:29:43.059 --> 00:29:46.319 But I agree with you. We can imagine that this can be realized. 00:29:47.239 --> 00:29:51.819 So now you're sketching this problem. Like here I have 10 million clones of 00:29:51.819 --> 00:29:55.879 you, but they're all robots, okay? 00:29:56.099 --> 00:29:59.279 So that's the problem. How are you going to solve that problem? It's a problem. 00:29:59.939 --> 00:30:05.939 I want a solution. The solution is the fact that all this thing is happening slowly. 00:30:06.479 --> 00:30:11.879 We'll make sure we'll come up with a reasonable solution that will improve as 00:30:11.879 --> 00:30:12.779 the technology develops. 00:30:13.419 --> 00:30:16.339 Because it is a problem, no matter what. But that's a belief, 00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:21.239 right? Because it might as well be the frog in the boiling water problem, right? 00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:25.859 That sort of, as long as things change slowly, you think there's no problem until it's too late. 00:30:27.419 --> 00:30:32.639 Well, I mean, look in this way. The spamming that we get from email, 00:30:32.919 --> 00:30:36.239 we have the problem, big problem, we dealt with it. 00:30:36.539 --> 00:30:39.419 We have viruses, we dealt with it. 00:30:40.179 --> 00:30:44.019 It's the kind of thing that we somehow recognize it's a problem. 00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:48.359 This is the same, could be the same issue. Here someone make you, 00:30:48.459 --> 00:30:54.319 sell you a robot, not necessarily copied you, but while it is in your home, 00:30:55.118 --> 00:31:00.378 Someone take over the control and basically send all these pictures from the home. 00:31:00.518 --> 00:31:03.258 I'm sure in flow, I mean, a robot 00:31:03.258 --> 00:31:07.478 like that in a house of an actor in California, you know, famous actor. 00:31:07.598 --> 00:31:13.958 I'm sure lots of people would like to see on YouTube images right from the house 00:31:13.958 --> 00:31:16.138 when the actor is feeling comfortable. 00:31:16.618 --> 00:31:20.078 You know, things like that. You know, how do you protect it against it? 00:31:20.238 --> 00:31:25.718 This could be an issue. You're talking about all this, they call them, 00:31:25.778 --> 00:31:29.978 that they chase actors to take photos. 00:31:30.398 --> 00:31:34.438 Here, this robot sits in their own home, you know, and sending pictures. 00:31:34.818 --> 00:31:40.138 Right, but then one solution could be that we have to just generate a new set of laws. 00:31:40.258 --> 00:31:45.158 For instance, that we will not build robots, or that it would be outlawed to 00:31:45.158 --> 00:31:49.878 build robots that are exactly replicas of systems that we would recognize as animals or as humans. 00:31:50.758 --> 00:31:54.378 It could be a possibility. It could be the one-off solution. 00:31:55.558 --> 00:31:58.838 On the other hand, we are trying to build robots that will look like animals 00:31:58.838 --> 00:32:01.398 and perform like animals. 00:32:01.618 --> 00:32:07.818 So one other angle of fear I have of this is that we build all these birds that 00:32:07.818 --> 00:32:13.098 will fly, and if we use them in a war, we'll make the enemy kill all the birds 00:32:13.098 --> 00:32:15.478 because they don't know which one is real, which one is not. 00:32:15.718 --> 00:32:19.098 So they will kill anything that flies like a bird or quacks like a bird. 00:32:19.318 --> 00:32:25.078 You know, and that's a danger that is a side effect of developing technology like that. 00:32:25.198 --> 00:32:28.078 What would we do? Not develop this kind of technology? 00:32:28.498 --> 00:32:31.658 Well, that's the question, right? So if we say, look, we're not going to build 00:32:31.658 --> 00:32:35.138 replicants because otherwise we have the same problem as in the Android dream 00:32:35.138 --> 00:32:36.878 of electric sheep of Philip K. 00:32:36.898 --> 00:32:41.278 Dick or Blade Runner, that in the end we had this massive difficulty to actually 00:32:41.278 --> 00:32:46.158 recognize or distinguish the replicants from the robots, from the humans, 00:32:46.338 --> 00:32:49.838 and that is this Kropf-Forg test for that to look at the emotional responses. 00:32:51.358 --> 00:32:54.838 So, okay, so this could be a possible future danger of, let's say, 00:32:54.858 --> 00:32:57.558 biomimetics at this morphological level. Okay. 00:32:58.125 --> 00:33:01.985 Is there a reason not to do it, Dan, if you take that angle? 00:33:02.305 --> 00:33:05.905 I'll put it this way. It's important to know what can go wrong. 00:33:06.085 --> 00:33:07.405 I mentioned that in my lecture. 00:33:08.345 --> 00:33:12.925 Knowing that something can go wrong is important. Hide it under the carpet. That's bad. 00:33:13.345 --> 00:33:20.945 But if electricity has its negative too, stick your finger with a nail into 00:33:20.945 --> 00:33:22.965 one of the poles, you will die. 00:33:24.285 --> 00:33:28.705 It doesn't mean that we're going to stop using electricity. Cars kill people. 00:33:29.225 --> 00:33:36.245 We have, in the US, we have 50,000 people die every year in accidents. We still drive. 00:33:37.425 --> 00:33:42.405 We have laws. We improve safety. We're doing a lot of things to improve. 00:33:42.885 --> 00:33:47.045 But this has become, we cannot live without them. 00:33:47.505 --> 00:33:51.305 Robots, maybe at the beginning, we probably won't be able to live without them. 00:33:51.325 --> 00:33:56.405 But soon, once they become part of our life, it will be the same problem. 00:33:56.825 --> 00:34:02.145 We'll have them causing trouble, making mistakes, our software go wire, 00:34:02.225 --> 00:34:10.705 but we'll have to somehow deal with what could go on while we're enjoying the benefit. 00:34:10.945 --> 00:34:15.645 The wrong expected a lot of benefits from them. And I can imagine a lot of them. 00:34:15.805 --> 00:34:21.265 You know, we are, Japanese recognize it even more than any other society because 00:34:21.265 --> 00:34:24.705 their society is declining. mining. There is more elderly than youngs. 00:34:24.905 --> 00:34:29.145 And they're looking for people to help the elderly in nursery homes, for example. 00:34:29.605 --> 00:34:33.245 And they're making robots to help them. Remind them of medication, 00:34:33.605 --> 00:34:34.805 making sure they're okay. 00:34:35.085 --> 00:34:38.405 Just be around them, make sure that everything is under control. 00:34:39.345 --> 00:34:43.245 So they are using them. So they're slowly getting into their life. 00:34:43.265 --> 00:34:46.705 But the acceptance of these robots is not necessarily very high. 00:34:46.885 --> 00:34:49.765 I mean, there are cases where these robots were introduced in, 00:34:49.785 --> 00:34:53.785 let's say, nursing homes, but the humans were not very pleased with them. 00:34:53.885 --> 00:34:55.965 They actually didn't like it. 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:04.220 Put it this way. If you go to a friend and they introduce you to the new robot 00:35:04.220 --> 00:35:08.140 they just got, and the robot made incredible meal, 00:35:08.600 --> 00:35:13.660 cleaned the dishes, took the garbage, did it all efficiently without breaking 00:35:13.660 --> 00:35:15.600 anything, guess what you're going to do? 00:35:15.680 --> 00:35:19.800 You're going to go home, look at the internet where they sell those, and order one. 00:35:20.220 --> 00:35:24.040 It's just a matter of time. Right. Of course, when it comes to your home, 00:35:24.140 --> 00:35:28.160 it will start breaking dishes and everything else. And bad cooking. 00:35:29.260 --> 00:35:34.340 But I'm sure with time we'll improve on that. Because everything you will remember 00:35:34.340 --> 00:35:41.320 of technology at the beginning, there were flows of childhood diseases. 00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:44.220 Problems, yes. Problems, and look where it is today. 00:35:45.420 --> 00:35:49.740 So now, what do you mean with the notion of human-like robots? Why is that important? 00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:56.540 Well, the human-like aspect is, I mean, you could have machines that look like 00:35:56.540 --> 00:36:00.300 human, but we feel more comfortable with human. I mentioned that too. 00:36:02.380 --> 00:36:07.420 It has to be our size to begin with. You know, if you want it to be useful for 00:36:07.420 --> 00:36:11.680 us, if it's like, look, can you get me this bottle? And the bottle is on the table. 00:36:12.080 --> 00:36:15.840 If the robot is too short, you know, by the time get me the bottle, 00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:18.180 I'll be thirsty like hell, you know. 00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:23.820 Or if it's too big, you know, it will be so clumsy and it won't even be able to get through the door. 00:36:23.940 --> 00:36:28.380 So you want it to go through your door, open, you know, open the door comfortably. 00:36:28.580 --> 00:36:30.760 I want it to do all the things we can do. 00:36:31.220 --> 00:36:35.960 So if it can do it, it probably would be nice if it has the same capability we have. 00:36:36.540 --> 00:36:40.840 Five fingers in each hand, two hands, I don't know, maybe useful to have more, 00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:45.740 but probably Probably evolution already found that it's better management of 00:36:45.740 --> 00:36:50.700 the space around us to have two legs and two hands, rather than have multiple, 00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:56.920 even though the solution on a smaller level, lower level life was that there 00:36:56.920 --> 00:36:59.240 is more of them. You know, a spider has eight of them. 00:37:01.249 --> 00:37:04.649 And, of course, if we find useful, we'll do it. You know, it's just an evolution, 00:37:04.869 --> 00:37:05.829 I mean, development evolution. 00:37:06.829 --> 00:37:11.789 So the other aspect is we are very comfortable with communication with human 00:37:11.789 --> 00:37:13.109 language, body language. 00:37:13.509 --> 00:37:17.609 If I smile, people appreciate that, you know, I'm happy. And, 00:37:17.629 --> 00:37:21.129 of course, if I'm angry, this is all expected with the face. 00:37:21.489 --> 00:37:25.069 So if you want to talk to your robot and the robot does something stupid, 00:37:25.329 --> 00:37:29.649 instead of programming so that you can say, I'm angry, you just show angry face. 00:37:29.809 --> 00:37:34.269 That's it. it, you know, especially if the general public is starting to use 00:37:34.269 --> 00:37:37.849 robots rather than those who don't care about sitting and programming, 00:37:38.009 --> 00:37:41.229 which is what we do anyway, you know, so it would be nice. 00:37:41.409 --> 00:37:44.149 And look what suddenly social media is doing with computers. 00:37:44.769 --> 00:37:49.589 No one would have imagined that suddenly every kid will have to have a computer 00:37:49.589 --> 00:37:56.069 so that they can communicate with Facebook and what all these capabilities that we have today, 00:37:56.309 --> 00:38:00.209 you Even though computers were made initially for computational. 00:38:00.469 --> 00:38:01.689 It was a computational machine. 00:38:02.469 --> 00:38:06.849 But you're saying, look, we evolved to exist in a certain niche. 00:38:07.129 --> 00:38:12.289 We have also shaped our world to have certain affordances so we can deal with 00:38:12.289 --> 00:38:13.709 cups and tables and chairs. 00:38:13.909 --> 00:38:18.649 We have structured all these things to fit also our own morphology and our own behavior. 00:38:18.869 --> 00:38:21.989 So our affordances match the world we have created. 00:38:21.989 --> 00:38:24.809 It um so you're saying to 00:38:24.809 --> 00:38:27.669 insert robots in that they must match that similar set 00:38:27.669 --> 00:38:31.189 of affordances and that's that's why they should be human-like but 00:38:31.189 --> 00:38:34.289 this could possibly also create an exactly a conflict 00:38:34.289 --> 00:38:37.149 with your earlier problem that i can clone you because you're 00:38:37.149 --> 00:38:40.269 saying look because of these functional requirements i have to build something 00:38:40.269 --> 00:38:44.009 that is very human-like it even has to look human because otherwise it cannot 00:38:44.009 --> 00:38:48.409 communicate but then automatically as an artifact you create now all these problems 00:38:48.409 --> 00:38:52.549 you sketched earlier which is like well now i can I can clone Joseph Barcone 00:38:52.549 --> 00:38:54.529 and I can have a rubber bank, right? 00:38:54.849 --> 00:38:59.929 I mean, there are solutions to that. You can have the forehead with a license plate. 00:39:00.289 --> 00:39:03.409 Okay. As an example, there are possibilities of solution. 00:39:03.869 --> 00:39:06.169 But okay, you could run around without license plate. 00:39:07.649 --> 00:39:10.529 So, of course. The license plate, I think, is not effective. 00:39:10.869 --> 00:39:14.889 I mean, it could be a device just like, you know, fake money. 00:39:15.229 --> 00:39:19.129 There are scanners that you can use that can scan which one is real, 00:39:19.189 --> 00:39:26.589 which one is fake. You can have, definitely we can identify a machine versus human with detectors. 00:39:26.869 --> 00:39:30.729 But in some sense you make an assumption, right? Because maybe we want these 00:39:30.729 --> 00:39:35.529 machines that help us, that assist us in everyday life to be recognizable as 00:39:35.529 --> 00:39:37.329 machines and not necessarily do everything. 00:39:38.049 --> 00:39:43.489 Maybe we want to have a recognizable, more like a tool. This is my assistive tool. 00:39:43.849 --> 00:39:50.109 It is a more human compatible robot as opposed to a human-like robot. Would you buy that? 00:39:51.446 --> 00:39:55.606 It's probably this is what will happen at the beginning. But I'm sure with time, 00:39:55.646 --> 00:39:57.766 we'll desire more and we'll ask for more. 00:39:58.226 --> 00:40:03.746 And of course, if I, my vision is, I don't know if it will be 100 years from 00:40:03.746 --> 00:40:07.286 now, 200 years from now, robots will do way better than humans. 00:40:07.666 --> 00:40:12.906 In what? Will be the robots of the future will do way better than humans. 00:40:13.306 --> 00:40:17.026 My concern is. But in what? In what will it do way better? In everything. 00:40:17.306 --> 00:40:23.946 Everything. Force, intelligence, computation, recognizing, you know, 00:40:23.966 --> 00:40:27.726 they can recognize faces right away with the resume and everything with it. 00:40:27.766 --> 00:40:30.386 Go to the internet, search, think we can do. 00:40:30.806 --> 00:40:35.386 I mean, you will have to pull your iPhone or something or your smart phone to 00:40:35.386 --> 00:40:36.346 find all this information. 00:40:36.446 --> 00:40:39.586 This guy has it in his brain as part of the machine. 00:40:39.746 --> 00:40:44.566 And, you know, maybe he can communicate it to you down the road because we don't 00:40:44.566 --> 00:40:47.026 know how the communication will be then, not necessarily verbal, 00:40:47.126 --> 00:40:51.906 because if you have this companion robot with you and you just want it to help 00:40:51.906 --> 00:40:53.406 you without others knowing, 00:40:53.806 --> 00:41:01.206 maybe there will be a chip in our brain or our skull connected to this robot and it will help us. 00:41:01.326 --> 00:41:05.606 It will tell us things we need to know while it doesn't share this with everyone, 00:41:05.706 --> 00:41:08.066 just with us. And who knows what else could it be? 00:41:08.286 --> 00:41:12.986 The probability are enormous. If you think of all the smartphones and what they can do. Sure. 00:41:13.846 --> 00:41:17.066 Look at all these old movies and books. None of them predicted that. 00:41:17.226 --> 00:41:19.826 And this is something simple we have in our pockets. 00:41:20.006 --> 00:41:25.446 But now, are you, in some sense, aligning yourself with this whole singularity movement? 00:41:26.226 --> 00:41:29.146 And people like Kurzweil who would say, look, there is sort of this disastrous 00:41:29.146 --> 00:41:32.266 future in front of us when the machines will take over. 00:41:32.446 --> 00:41:35.806 It's a bit like a Terminator scenario, right? Like you build Skynet and it becomes 00:41:35.806 --> 00:41:37.846 conscious and it takes over the world and we're lost. 00:41:39.086 --> 00:41:42.786 Well, I'm not saying a singularity. I mean, we're in trouble. That's it. 00:41:42.986 --> 00:41:47.726 I don't see that because I think we are humans still around and we're going 00:41:47.726 --> 00:41:52.126 to bring a sense of human into whatever we develop. 00:41:52.766 --> 00:41:54.886 So at least we still have hope. 00:41:55.786 --> 00:42:01.306 So I'm looking at it more in the positive sense. There will be corrections throughout the path. 00:42:02.528 --> 00:42:07.388 Well, thing go wrong and we fix. Thing go wrong and fix. And basically, 00:42:07.548 --> 00:42:09.668 this is what we're doing. We're finding something wrong. 00:42:10.128 --> 00:42:14.188 Look, traffic light. Why we invented traffic light? We had cars driving all 00:42:14.188 --> 00:42:16.488 over. There were not that many. They ran into people. 00:42:16.988 --> 00:42:21.268 And we decided, and it became so much that we needed to come with solutions. 00:42:21.268 --> 00:42:26.388 So we came with traffic light, brake light, front light, and all those tools 00:42:26.388 --> 00:42:32.388 that allow us to find, you know, manage with this chaos. 00:42:32.628 --> 00:42:35.988 And initially, it probably was chaos, one driving one way, the other one the other way. 00:42:36.028 --> 00:42:41.768 Now, we put order into this chaos, and now we can make, we still have traffic 00:42:41.768 --> 00:42:44.808 jams, but people constantly coming with new solutions. 00:42:44.928 --> 00:42:49.428 It's the same thing will be with this robot. But with time, I'm sure, 00:42:49.608 --> 00:42:54.068 constantly we'll come up with, and probably the speed of problems that are rising 00:42:54.068 --> 00:42:58.768 will be even faster than the speed of coming with solutions to them. 00:42:59.048 --> 00:43:03.148 But look what happens when we find problems like that. We just shut down the 00:43:03.148 --> 00:43:06.868 factory or whatever until we have a solution, even like the space shuttle. 00:43:07.208 --> 00:43:11.288 When there was a problem, there was an explosion, we turn it off, 00:43:11.388 --> 00:43:13.708 no flight, until we find a solution. 00:43:14.028 --> 00:43:18.488 Right. You know, it could be some situation like that here, that, 00:43:18.588 --> 00:43:22.628 you know, you send the movie iRobot, I don't know if you've seen it. 00:43:23.028 --> 00:43:26.328 They marketed on defective robots, you know. 00:43:26.368 --> 00:43:31.068 So somehow they're all out there and going haywire. Right, exactly. 00:43:31.608 --> 00:43:35.008 But there are two things about this. And that's traffic lights, 00:43:35.108 --> 00:43:36.228 I think, is a good example, right? 00:43:36.288 --> 00:43:41.148 Because the sobering observations that traffic lights are actually still hopelessly 00:43:41.148 --> 00:43:45.188 primitive. I mean, the way we regulate traffic in cities is actually terribly 00:43:45.188 --> 00:43:47.428 inefficient, and there is a long way to go. 00:43:47.748 --> 00:43:49.968 And the second thing is that... 00:43:51.536 --> 00:43:54.296 If we think about these robots and this robot future, it's often in these very 00:43:54.296 --> 00:43:57.576 utilitarian terms, like they will be smarter than us, faster than us, 00:43:57.596 --> 00:44:01.276 stronger than us, but maybe they should be as lazy as we want to be. 00:44:01.816 --> 00:44:04.636 Humans have many features that are not utilitarian, right? 00:44:04.676 --> 00:44:07.176 It also has a lot to do with, let's say, quality of life, experience, 00:44:07.676 --> 00:44:11.876 enrichment of experience, and so on, in which you cannot outdo each other, 00:44:12.276 --> 00:44:16.116 because it has to do with your enjoyment of life. I mean, you might want to do sports. 00:44:16.596 --> 00:44:21.516 It's just a very personal experience. So, in that sense, isn't there this whole 00:44:21.516 --> 00:44:27.336 other aspect of human experience and human activity where we have to think about 00:44:27.336 --> 00:44:28.976 how these machines can assist us? 00:44:30.336 --> 00:44:34.356 Well, as I said, this is what we call the technology evolution. 00:44:34.856 --> 00:44:39.096 We're going to pull them to the direction where we feel comfortable with them. 00:44:39.856 --> 00:44:46.876 I will give you an example of when those sluggages that you carry with you to the airplane came out. 00:44:46.876 --> 00:44:54.276 Initially, they were vertical, so that it will be narrow to go between the chairs of the airplane, 00:44:54.556 --> 00:45:00.636 but they kept falling because they were poorly balanced, and I didn't buy one 00:45:00.636 --> 00:45:03.496 because I saw it as a problem, and look where it is today. 00:45:03.776 --> 00:45:08.796 They're all flat. They sit more stable on the ground, and look how they're evolving, 00:45:09.016 --> 00:45:12.576 and there's no comparison between those and what we used to have, 00:45:12.696 --> 00:45:14.516 I don't know, 10, 20 years back. 00:45:15.416 --> 00:45:21.596 We evolve, if you compare evolution of animals to evolution of our technology 00:45:21.596 --> 00:45:25.696 or commercial product, there's some similarity in many senses. 00:45:26.276 --> 00:45:29.616 Whatever we don't like, it become extinct, no one buys it anymore. 00:45:30.256 --> 00:45:35.056 And then they come with the latest version that we like, and that's what we buy. 00:45:35.416 --> 00:45:39.096 So it would be the same thing. One thing, of course, I wouldn't be concerned about. 00:45:40.194 --> 00:45:44.234 Talking about quality of life. So while things have improved our life, 00:45:44.414 --> 00:45:46.914 like the cell phone, we're constantly busy. 00:45:47.674 --> 00:45:52.774 I used to go to a conference. No one here for me. I don't hear from anyone. I just enjoy, relax. 00:45:53.334 --> 00:45:56.634 Now I have a laptop with me. I have an iPhone with me. And I constantly, 00:45:56.874 --> 00:46:00.974 while I'm listening to the talks, I make sure my, what I call business, 00:46:01.034 --> 00:46:04.334 is running smoothly because I'm taking care of things. 00:46:04.514 --> 00:46:09.514 Things that I would have waited, probably it would be disastrous consequences by the time I arrived. 00:46:10.194 --> 00:46:14.374 But this is what it used to be. So now everyone has this capability. 00:46:14.594 --> 00:46:17.994 So everyone wants to be in real time with what's going on. 00:46:18.234 --> 00:46:21.954 So I know, and you heard the bing from my phone. This is the constant bing. 00:46:22.334 --> 00:46:25.574 And all the time I have to check what happened and I have to tell them what 00:46:25.574 --> 00:46:29.334 to do and take care of whatever is happening. 00:46:29.734 --> 00:46:35.314 So while I have control, it's my life constantly being 24 hours a day, 00:46:35.514 --> 00:46:37.574 seven days a week, I am working. 00:46:38.194 --> 00:46:42.954 So bring the efficiency of having a robot on top of it. By the end of the day, 00:46:42.994 --> 00:46:45.914 you're exhausted. You use yourself up too. Exactly. 00:46:46.174 --> 00:46:49.174 Now this is interesting, right? Well, we think we introduce a technology to 00:46:49.174 --> 00:46:51.854 make life easier. We just complexify it tremendously. 00:46:52.594 --> 00:46:57.994 Tremendously. You have no time to breathe because you are very efficient. 00:46:58.274 --> 00:47:03.114 How much efficient can you be? Oh my gosh. You cannot turn your head because 00:47:03.114 --> 00:47:05.934 something's going to happen and you have to watch it. 00:47:06.114 --> 00:47:11.634 But then, to what extent do you see biomimetics playing a leading role in giving 00:47:11.634 --> 00:47:13.834 rise to this robot revolution that you envision? 00:47:15.214 --> 00:47:19.394 It gives us more tools to make our life more efficient. 00:47:19.954 --> 00:47:24.954 I mean, efficiency could be good and bad because relaxing is not about efficiency. 00:47:25.554 --> 00:47:29.554 When you drink beer and having a good time watching the ocean, 00:47:29.734 --> 00:47:31.974 there's no efficiency. You're not looking for efficiency. 00:47:33.294 --> 00:47:38.354 And that's, At least if you have that time or if you had time to do that, 00:47:38.494 --> 00:47:41.134 you wouldn't have that probably because you're so busy. 00:47:41.454 --> 00:47:44.994 You have a robot to take care of everything now. So on one hand, 00:47:45.014 --> 00:47:47.374 you think that with all the technology we created, 00:47:48.134 --> 00:47:51.474 We're now supposed to have more free time. I don't have free time. 00:47:51.614 --> 00:47:55.894 I used to go fishing. I don't go fishing anymore because I don't have free time. 00:47:56.214 --> 00:48:00.634 Right. Because I am so efficient now. But on the other hand, 00:48:00.634 --> 00:48:03.994 I publish so many books. I publish so many things. I made so many reports. 00:48:04.294 --> 00:48:07.054 I have so many patents because I'm efficient. 00:48:08.054 --> 00:48:12.854 But I probably would be more efficient. But I don't have time for anything. 00:48:13.154 --> 00:48:16.954 So there's also many, many other people have an exponential increase of emails 00:48:16.954 --> 00:48:18.954 in their mailboxes. Because you're so efficient. 00:48:19.194 --> 00:48:21.254 Exactly. And in response, they're more efficient. 00:48:21.594 --> 00:48:27.574 And it's a problem. And you are left out if you are not in that category of those who can do it. 00:48:27.714 --> 00:48:31.094 So I took a class, How to Read Fast. And I type quick. 00:48:31.474 --> 00:48:35.474 And I'm constantly writing emails, responding to things. 00:48:35.674 --> 00:48:39.714 And someone else is reading that so they can respond. And this is crazy. 00:48:40.414 --> 00:48:43.914 It is in 2011. I don't know. 00:48:43.974 --> 00:48:46.834 I don't want to think what will happen in five years from now. 00:48:46.834 --> 00:48:51.394 How miserable it will be in terms of having to respond to emails so quickly. 00:48:51.774 --> 00:48:57.494 It's our efficiency arms race. I guess. It is. It is. And everyone is losing. 00:48:58.074 --> 00:49:02.814 This is interesting, right? So technology has not helped us to improve the quality of life so far. 00:49:03.294 --> 00:49:08.754 But then my question is… No, it did. It just makes us… Efficient. 00:49:09.194 --> 00:49:14.034 It makes us super efficient and we don't have time extra. But not necessarily 00:49:14.034 --> 00:49:16.314 happy. You're not fishing anymore, right? 00:49:17.274 --> 00:49:20.934 But then the other thing is what I want to know from the perspective of research. 00:49:21.274 --> 00:49:22.454 So this is the robot revolution. 00:49:23.194 --> 00:49:27.114 They'll make us very efficient. So we'll be typing even more emails in the future 00:49:27.114 --> 00:49:29.814 and fixing the robot in the same time. 00:49:30.094 --> 00:49:33.874 But to what extent is biomimetics going to lead the development? 00:49:34.334 --> 00:49:37.734 Is that your view on it? Or is it one of many approaches that will contribute? 00:49:37.794 --> 00:49:40.294 Biomimetics, this is what is important about it. 00:49:40.974 --> 00:49:43.634 We do not want to reinvent the wheel. 00:49:45.154 --> 00:49:51.014 Nature has done a good job over billions of years with enormous pool of inventions. 00:49:51.494 --> 00:49:55.754 We just tapped some of them that we were able to copy or learn from. 00:49:56.414 --> 00:49:57.974 Some of them we don't even know. 00:49:58.974 --> 00:50:05.634 There's so much. I told the new zoo in San Diego, apparently they have a program now on biomimetics. 00:50:06.454 --> 00:50:11.634 And I told them, your role, just doing that, taking animal, animal, and start cataloging. 00:50:11.694 --> 00:50:16.854 Cataloging what this animal as an engineering device forget that this is a living 00:50:16.854 --> 00:50:22.534 creature biological with cells and stuff look at it as a machine it has specs 00:50:22.534 --> 00:50:26.954 that it is between this size and this size when it is adult is it can live this 00:50:26.954 --> 00:50:29.214 long but beside that what does it do, 00:50:30.472 --> 00:50:36.252 Look at it as an engineering. And we, the engineers, will try to see what we can learn from that. 00:50:36.752 --> 00:50:41.892 And there is a lot of things, and not just a simple engineering aspect. 00:50:42.432 --> 00:50:46.152 You know, the hair, how does it grow? What makes it look that? 00:50:46.272 --> 00:50:49.052 What does this hair, the way it grows, does? 00:50:49.992 --> 00:50:53.672 Because the way the angle and whatever, white is here and not there, 00:50:53.972 --> 00:50:56.832 all the things can give us clues to our new ideas. 00:50:57.172 --> 00:51:01.292 Because it's already been invented. And if it was no good, it would have been 00:51:01.292 --> 00:51:05.152 extinct. The fact that it survived this millions of years, this is incredible. 00:51:05.812 --> 00:51:08.752 And you look at things like that, what are bringing us to octopus. 00:51:10.492 --> 00:51:16.272 Look what it can do. We cannot do that. If I give you rope and whatever, 00:51:16.612 --> 00:51:22.832 try to do on scale of human what spider does on scale of spider. 00:51:23.672 --> 00:51:28.412 This is incredible. Incredible. Flat surface with all these strings. 00:51:29.092 --> 00:51:33.072 How does it tie? I always am fascinated. I never seen them, how they do, 00:51:33.272 --> 00:51:36.492 how they start. I always see them after they already made the progress. 00:51:36.712 --> 00:51:40.472 But somehow they link from one end to another. No knots. 00:51:41.332 --> 00:51:47.312 It's all one flat surface. And it's amazing. They're fairly repeating themselves. 00:51:48.112 --> 00:51:53.852 And it's just a spider, a tiny spider. And it's able in its mind to put all 00:51:53.852 --> 00:51:56.172 these coordinates on whatever surface, 00:51:58.232 --> 00:52:03.852 which is fascinating. We cannot do that. Not yet. Not yet, right. 00:52:04.272 --> 00:52:12.632 So to go to the finish, so you're in this domain of biometrics for a long time. 00:52:12.732 --> 00:52:15.672 You've written several books about it. You have a very strong opinion of what 00:52:15.672 --> 00:52:20.972 biometrics means. So if we would have to identify the one law of Joseph Barcon 00:52:20.972 --> 00:52:25.632 with respect to how we're going to move into that future, what's this one law 00:52:25.632 --> 00:52:27.332 that you would like to put out today? 00:52:29.492 --> 00:52:33.652 It's hard to answer that because it's so multidisciplinary field. 00:52:34.312 --> 00:52:37.372 What is biomimetics? As I said, it's everything. 00:52:38.292 --> 00:52:44.032 What I'm hoping, there will be some kind of a handbook one day where we have 00:52:44.032 --> 00:52:45.952 everything we know about animals. 00:52:48.495 --> 00:52:52.475 Even things we know, because maybe we know, but someone else doesn't. 00:52:52.855 --> 00:52:55.275 So that new engineers will have 00:52:55.275 --> 00:53:01.095 this catalog of, and it's going to be complicated, how multidimensional. 00:53:01.295 --> 00:53:06.255 How do you catalog that? By animal type, by insects, animal, 00:53:06.415 --> 00:53:12.915 birds, whatever, by materials, by whatever, because everything is biomedic to some extent. 00:53:12.915 --> 00:53:21.295 And if we somehow one day we are able to make an airplane with cells that rejuvenate 00:53:21.295 --> 00:53:29.115 and self-repair and make sure that it maintains all the things that it needs to maintain, 00:53:29.555 --> 00:53:32.895 then that could be a good biomedics lesson. 00:53:32.895 --> 00:53:37.355 And listen, the fact we make cars the same, and if they are somewhat, 00:53:37.495 --> 00:53:44.055 you know, not exactly, then these cars that are not exactly offload, 00:53:44.235 --> 00:53:46.755 they won't perform as good. Look at us. 00:53:47.575 --> 00:53:52.555 You could be this short, and you could be this tall, and all of us will do the 00:53:52.555 --> 00:53:54.555 same. They will be able to climb stairs. 00:53:54.735 --> 00:53:58.135 They will be able to climb trees. They will be able to write, 00:53:58.295 --> 00:54:01.715 read, do all the things we know how to do without being exactly. 00:54:02.335 --> 00:54:08.875 And, you know, once we die, our body becomes bones. And when you look at it, it's not connected. 00:54:09.655 --> 00:54:13.975 Nothing physically rigidly connects everything. It's all scattered. 00:54:14.715 --> 00:54:20.115 We make our structures bolted down, glued permanently. 00:54:21.595 --> 00:54:25.415 We need to learn something how to make structures that are not exact. 00:54:25.495 --> 00:54:28.455 Actually, we don't want to look exactly one like the other. 00:54:29.115 --> 00:54:31.975 Twins have a lot of problems sometimes if people recognize who is who. 00:54:32.055 --> 00:54:33.895 We have identity. We like that. 00:54:35.355 --> 00:54:39.335 So something like that, structures that are different, it's nice. 00:54:39.575 --> 00:54:43.575 There are people already designing robots with identity and appearance difference. 00:54:44.255 --> 00:54:47.595 So the law would then be imposition is power, something like this. 00:54:49.215 --> 00:54:53.955 Then the second question would then be, okay, we talked about, 00:54:53.955 --> 00:54:58.035 let's say, predictions that go pretty far into the future, up to 200 years was 00:54:58.035 --> 00:54:59.635 the last number we discussed there. 00:54:59.995 --> 00:55:03.995 But if you would have to make a prediction that we can validate with you five 00:55:03.995 --> 00:55:07.695 years from now, so we get you back here next interview, look, 00:55:08.035 --> 00:55:11.715 five years back, you gave me this prediction, and now you're going to tell me 00:55:11.715 --> 00:55:13.655 whether you succeeded or you failed. 00:55:13.955 --> 00:55:16.695 What's that prediction? That's a hard thing to do. 00:55:17.895 --> 00:55:23.475 I'm sure I'd be wrong most likely you know just to make it simple to understand 00:55:23.475 --> 00:55:29.755 if you had a time machine and you just move two years from now, 00:55:30.815 --> 00:55:34.695 lots of things are different you don't even know what they're doing, 00:55:35.535 --> 00:55:40.835 you know two years I mean even look at all the cell phones now they change every 00:55:40.835 --> 00:55:46.095 half a year right through a year I don't want to go back a year or two because 00:55:46.095 --> 00:55:48.535 Because I don't have the good tools that I have already. 00:55:48.755 --> 00:55:53.435 Sure. Why would I go back? Which is the same problem of prediction. Of course. If I knew. 00:55:54.595 --> 00:55:58.035 No, we agree. Predicting is hard. That's why I want you to do it. 00:55:58.055 --> 00:55:59.755 So what's the prediction? One prediction only. 00:56:00.795 --> 00:56:04.435 It's my hope. I would say hope instead of prediction. 00:56:04.435 --> 00:56:11.055 My hope is that to see improvement at the electroactive polymers that will bring 00:56:11.055 --> 00:56:17.635 practical commercial materials or applications rather than just toys. 00:56:17.815 --> 00:56:21.755 Right now, it's mostly toys. We have fish that are sitting in aquarium that 00:56:21.755 --> 00:56:22.895 the Japanese are selling. 00:56:23.575 --> 00:56:30.435 We have this iPhone attachment that is haptic interface. I hope it will be maybe 00:56:30.435 --> 00:56:36.515 a braille display or, you know, a vegetable pipe or something practical that 00:56:36.515 --> 00:56:38.035 makes different to people. 00:56:38.295 --> 00:56:43.695 Okay. So five years time, electroactive polymers as really a solid and mature 00:56:43.695 --> 00:56:46.095 product in our society. That's what I'm hoping to see. 00:56:46.675 --> 00:56:49.975 Great. We'll be back to check. Not prediction, hope. Okay. Joseph Barkowin, 00:56:50.035 --> 00:56:53.215 thank you very much for this conversation. Thank you. Okay. 00:56:55.735 --> 00:57:01.575 The CSN podcast was produced by the Convergent Science Network of Biometrics 00:57:01.575 --> 00:57:07.955 and Biohybrid Systems, a project funded by the European 7th Research Framework Program. 00:57:09.555 --> 00:57:14.855 For more interviews, recorded lectures, or upcoming conferences in the field 00:57:14.855 --> 00:57:21.095 of biometrics and biohybrid systems, go to csnnetwork.eu. 00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:29.520 Music.