1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,440 The views and opinions expressed in Cold and Missing are exclusively those of the hosts. 2 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,120 All parties mentioned are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. 3 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,440 Cold and Missing also contains adult themes and languages and is intended for a mature 4 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:23,440 audience. 5 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:34,560 Listener discretion is advised. 6 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:36,120 Welcome back everyone. 7 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:37,440 Welcome back. 8 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,440 This is Cold and Missing. 9 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,520 I'm your host, Ali McLaughlin. 10 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,080 I am your co-host, Eli Sulkowski. 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,560 And it's the end of 2022. 12 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:49,200 We're right at the end here. 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:50,200 Yeah. 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,920 New Year's are coming up if you celebrate Christmas, but New Year is definitely coming 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,960 up for everybody on whatever the calendar is called that we use. 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,360 I don't know what it's called. 17 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:08,800 Because you know how there's like Chinese New Year and then like, yeah, there's like 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,880 other New Year's, but the big one's coming up. 19 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:15,200 All right. 20 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,960 Just where we are in time. 21 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:23,600 And this week, again, if you've been listening to our past episodes, it's just a little bit 22 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:30,680 of a different, no new case, but we do have some really great updates about cases we have 23 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:31,680 covered. 24 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,320 So we're going to get into that this week. 25 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:37,360 So strap in and we'll give you the details. 26 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,480 So the first case we wanted to update you on is Betty Rolf. 27 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:48,440 We've mentioned last week that there was an update, but we covered Betty's story about 28 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,560 three weeks ago now. 29 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,980 And just in case you haven't listened to that case, you can stop here, go back and listen 30 00:01:54,980 --> 00:01:55,980 to it. 31 00:01:55,980 --> 00:01:57,980 But just a quick synopsis. 32 00:01:57,980 --> 00:02:05,500 Betty was a 60-year-old woman in November of 1988, and it was the first big snowstorm. 33 00:02:05,500 --> 00:02:10,060 And Betty did not like to drive in the snow, so she was going to walk to her place of employment 34 00:02:10,060 --> 00:02:11,960 around 6 a.m. 35 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,520 And it was only 10 blocks from her house, and it was on the same street she lived on, 36 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:20,160 so a very easy walk by all measures, and what should have been a short walk. 37 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:25,320 But Betty never made it to work, and the next day her body was found by police after her 38 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,940 family had reported her missing. 39 00:02:27,940 --> 00:02:33,840 As we talked about in our episode, they had developed a DNA profile for the suspect, and 40 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,040 it had been entered into CODIS several times, no hits, no updates. 41 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,440 Can you tell me what CODIS means again? 42 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:46,440 So CODIS stands for Combined DNA Index System. 43 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,640 Oh, got it, got it. 44 00:02:48,640 --> 00:02:50,640 CODIS, I was, okay. 45 00:02:50,640 --> 00:02:51,900 Yeah, CODIS. 46 00:02:51,900 --> 00:02:59,840 So it had been put in the CODIS database several times, no hits, until recently, and here's 47 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:01,680 where the big case update comes in. 48 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:07,720 So on December 8th of 2022, just a couple weeks ago, police in Eatonville, Washington, 49 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:13,640 arrested 66-year-old Gene C. Meyer, charging him with first-degree murder and first-degree 50 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:18,880 sexual assault with a dangerous weapon for the 1988 murder of Betty Rolf. 51 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:25,320 So in 1988, Gene would have been 32 years old, and he lived about a mile away from the 52 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:30,760 crime scene, so he's definitely in the area. 53 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:38,640 And Gene has had run-ins with police in Wisconsin and Washington, but he never had a... 54 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:39,640 What kind of run-ins? 55 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,960 They didn't get into them that I could find. 56 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:47,260 I couldn't find any reports of what they had been, but it wasn't anything serious enough 57 00:03:47,260 --> 00:03:52,500 for his DNA to be collected and put into the CODIS system. 58 00:03:52,500 --> 00:03:58,200 So some questions that we had from the podcast, from our episode when I was researching it, 59 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:03,040 initially newspapers reported that Betty had been strangled, but then they walked that 60 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,840 back and said it's asphyxiation, and that is how she died, and that is how police were 61 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,120 officially calling it. 62 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:14,560 But now we have confirmation that she was strangled by a ligature, and then we were 63 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:15,560 also... 64 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:16,560 Does ligature always... 65 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:17,560 Does it mean a rope? 66 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,740 It could mean a rope, but it's usually just... 67 00:04:19,740 --> 00:04:20,740 It could also be... 68 00:04:20,740 --> 00:04:22,100 It could be like a shoestring. 69 00:04:22,100 --> 00:04:23,100 It could be a shoestring. 70 00:04:23,100 --> 00:04:25,640 It could be a cord from an electronic. 71 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:30,240 It's just something that could be used to tie and is flexible. 72 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:37,320 And then we also were curious where the DNA had come from that they had been able to develop. 73 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:43,640 So it was not clear until this update of December 8th, but up until then it was not clear where 74 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:48,760 the DNA had come from, if it had come from something nearby the scene, like a bottle, 75 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:54,440 for example, or if it had come from a biological sample. 76 00:04:54,440 --> 00:05:03,000 So we do know now that the DNA came from swabs done during her autopsy, and it is semen that 77 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,280 they got the DNA from. 78 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:10,480 Because we had questions about if a police officer had mishandled something at the crime 79 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:17,640 scene and perhaps his DNA had cross-contaminated, which is why there was no hit in CODIS. 80 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:24,960 But with this new information, it seems very obvious that the DNA is directly from the 81 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:26,040 crime. 82 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,080 So how did police get here? 83 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:32,600 In 2019, police began doing a familiar DNA research. 84 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,360 So that's basically... 85 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:39,560 If you've ever taken a DNA test to know your ancestry and uploaded it to the databases 86 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:45,440 to see distance cousins you may have that you've never met or anything like that, those 87 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,600 databases are public information. 88 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,760 And police don't need warrants to go into there because they have already been provided 89 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,080 and put up online. 90 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:02,880 And this is how they were able to locate the Golden State Killer was through familiar DNA. 91 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:08,960 So in this case with Betty, they were able to narrow it down to two brothers, that being 92 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:13,980 Gene Mayer and then his brother, who is not named, but is just referred by his initials 93 00:06:13,980 --> 00:06:18,040 as CM, but we'll call him Gene's brother here. 94 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:24,480 So Gene's brother fully cooperates with police when he's contacted and he provides his DNA 95 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,280 willingly, which rules him out and we're just left with Gene as a suspect. 96 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:33,120 But Gene's brother tells police that he believes his brother is dead. 97 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,600 Nobody has had contact with him in a long time. 98 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,860 And then Gene's niece... 99 00:06:37,860 --> 00:06:44,320 So I'm unclear if this would be Gene's brother's daughter or if this is a different niece altogether 100 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:45,320 in the family. 101 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:53,240 But Gene's niece said that sometime after 1986, her mother received a call from Gene 102 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,000 telling her goodbye and thanks for everything. 103 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,480 And then the niece continued to say that her mother was very distraught about this phone 104 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:02,640 call and very upset about it. 105 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,160 And the only thing she would say in reference to this was, I have a secret and it's going 106 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,240 to my grave. 107 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,600 Police locate Gene in Washington. 108 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:17,860 He's alive and they work with local police to get a swab of DNA from Gene. 109 00:07:17,860 --> 00:07:23,360 And they do this not by talking to Gene directly, but they follow him around and they swab the 110 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,360 handle of his truck door. 111 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:26,860 And that's how they get his DNA. 112 00:07:26,860 --> 00:07:28,620 So they never talk to him. 113 00:07:28,620 --> 00:07:30,960 They swab his truck door and it's a match. 114 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,460 And that's legal? 115 00:07:32,460 --> 00:07:33,500 That's legal. 116 00:07:33,500 --> 00:07:38,000 So if you're out drinking something like a bottle of water and you throw that bottle of water away, 117 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,080 somebody can come right after you grab it, put it in a bag and test your DNA. 118 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:47,540 And that happens a lot because once you throw something away, it's public trash. 119 00:07:47,540 --> 00:07:48,920 It's public property at that point. 120 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:50,460 Yeah, it's public trash. 121 00:07:50,460 --> 00:07:54,480 So Betty's family, they are obviously very grateful that he's been caught. 122 00:07:54,480 --> 00:08:00,200 And if you listen to our episode, we kind of go over the family and watch their hope 123 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,540 kind of die in this case. 124 00:08:02,540 --> 00:08:05,120 They talk so hopeful for years about it. 125 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,000 And then over the last 10 years, they're like, we don't know if it's ever going to get solved 126 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:10,000 at this point. 127 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,720 We don't even know if this person is still alive. 128 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,360 But Betty's granddaughter, she's quoted as saying, I'm just so grateful he's been caught. 129 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:17,900 This has been such a long time. 130 00:08:17,900 --> 00:08:23,000 I didn't know if we would ever see this day and I'm grateful he's still alive, end quote. 131 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,000 Because the family has questions. 132 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,960 They want answers and only this guy can really answer them. 133 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:33,880 So as of today, Gene is facing life in prison plus 20 years for the charges against him. 134 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:39,140 And he's currently being held in Washington on a $2 million bond waiting for extradition 135 00:08:39,140 --> 00:08:40,140 to Wisconsin. 136 00:08:40,140 --> 00:08:42,160 No one had that money to get him out? 137 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:43,920 Nobody had the $2 million. 138 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,720 So that is where we are with Betty Rolf. 139 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,400 But really great for this family. 140 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,720 Love to see these cold cases get solved and not be forgotten. 141 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:53,720 Yeah. 142 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,300 Like, what a, I don't know. 143 00:08:56,300 --> 00:09:02,360 It's wild to me that we just had the episode and that's like, I'm not, obviously I'm not 144 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:07,600 saying like, we helped, you know, but just that, that's like crazy. 145 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,360 Yeah, it was almost like that with Delphi too. 146 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,080 It was like we did it and then like two weeks later there was a break in the case. 147 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,400 So maybe it's the beginning of the luck. 148 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:18,400 Not even that. 149 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:24,720 Just like, I think there's proof in like literally just continuing to talk about these things. 150 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:30,520 Because like, it's hard to stay in the dark when the light is brought to it, you know? 151 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:37,520 So the next case that we wanted to update you all on is the Delphi, Indiana case. 152 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:44,520 So this is the murder of Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi, Indiana. 153 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:49,100 And we brought you a small update episode previously, but we didn't really know much 154 00:09:49,100 --> 00:09:50,100 at that point. 155 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:51,600 We knew who had been arrested. 156 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,360 We knew that he had lived in Delphi and we knew that he worked at the CVS in town, but 157 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,600 that was really all that we knew. 158 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:04,680 But recently the presiding judge on the case, they said, quote, the court finds the public 159 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:11,160 interest is not served by prohibiting access to the probable cause affidavit. 160 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,880 So she has unsealed it. 161 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:19,000 And in it we learn Richard Allen is being arrested for count one murder, which is a 162 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:20,160 felony. 163 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:25,640 And in it it says that he did kill another human being while committing or attempting 164 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,780 to commit kidnapping of both of the girls. 165 00:10:28,780 --> 00:10:32,640 So that is also part of it, is an attempted kidnapping. 166 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,160 So those are officially the charges that we have. 167 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,880 And now I'm going to get into the probable cause affidavit. 168 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:44,280 So this is what the evidence the police have against him at this point, or at least as 169 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,000 much as they needed to get the arrest warrant. 170 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:52,720 So obviously I hope not everything is in here, but there's potentially more that we don't 171 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,040 know that the police have. 172 00:10:54,040 --> 00:11:00,720 They say through interviews, reviews of electronic records and review of the video of Hoosier 173 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:06,280 Harvest Store, investigators believe that Abby and Libby were dropped off across from 174 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:11,720 the Mears Farm at 1.49 p.m. on February 13th, 2017. 175 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:16,840 The Mears Farm is located on the north side of County Road 300 north near an entrance 176 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:17,840 to the trail. 177 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,960 So this is all things we knew previously. 178 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:26,680 But we do get like firm timelines on here, which we didn't have before. 179 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:33,040 So it goes on to say, a video from Libby's phone shows that at 2:13, Abby Williams and 180 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:39,120 Libby German encountered a male subject on the southeast portion of the high bridge. 181 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,020 The male ordered the girls, quote, guys down the hill. 182 00:11:43,020 --> 00:11:48,120 No witnesses saw them after this time and no outgoing communications were found on Libby's 183 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,280 phone after this time. 184 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,920 Their bodies were discovered on February 14th, 2017. 185 00:11:54,920 --> 00:12:01,400 The video recovered from Libby's phone shows Abby walking southeast on the high bridge 186 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:06,480 while a male subject wearing a dark jacket and jeans walks behind her. 187 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:12,200 As the male subject approaches Abby and Libby, one of the victims mentions a gun. 188 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:17,000 Near the end of the video, a male is seen and heard telling the girls, guys down the 189 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:18,000 hill. 190 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,560 The girls begin to proceed down the hill and the video ends. 191 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:25,760 A still photograph was taken from the video and guys down the hill audio was released 192 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,680 to the public to assist investigators in finding this guy. 193 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:34,080 And then this is a new part that we learned through this. 194 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:38,260 So Abby and Libby deaths were ruled as homicide. 195 00:12:38,260 --> 00:12:43,480 Their clothes were found in Deer Creek belonging to both of them, south of where their bodies 196 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:44,480 were located. 197 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:51,800 There was also a 40 caliber unspent round less than two feet away from Libby's body 198 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,760 between Abby and Libby. 199 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,340 The round was unspent and had extraction marks on it. 200 00:12:58,340 --> 00:13:02,820 The probable cause goes in to some witness statements. 201 00:13:02,820 --> 00:13:10,360 So there were three other juvenile girls there that day on the bridge and on the trail system 202 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:16,960 who believe they saw Richard Allen or somebody who could potentially fit his description. 203 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,760 So all of the names of the witnesses in this have been redacted. 204 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:26,600 So for the juvenile girls, I just have them labeled as one, two, and three. 205 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:32,480 The girl number one described the male they saw as quote, kind of creepy and advised he 206 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:38,360 was wearing quote, like blue jeans and like really light blue jacket and his hair was 207 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:43,000 gray, maybe a little brown and he did not really show his face, end quote. 208 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,280 She advised the jacket was a duck canvas type of jacket. 209 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:54,360 And then the second girl advised that she said hi to the male, but he just glared at 210 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:55,360 them. 211 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,520 She recalled him being an all black and had something covering his mouth. 212 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,640 She described him as quote, not very tall with a bigger build. 213 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,440 She did say he was not bigger than 5'10". 214 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:11,120 She advised he was wearing a black hoodie, black jeans, and black boots. 215 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,080 She stated his hands were in his pocket. 216 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:19,520 And so girl number three, she actually took pictures that day, which helps kind of time 217 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,480 when these girls were on the trail a little bit. 218 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:27,080 We don't fully know when they were there, but they seem to have been leaving at around 219 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:32,840 1.26, which was roughly about 20 minutes before Abby and Libby were dropped off. 220 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:38,880 And so girl number three, she took these pictures and she says that they encountered the man 221 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,760 who matched the description of the photograph taken from Libby's phone. 222 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:49,260 She described the man on the trail as wearing a blue or black windbreaker jacket. 223 00:14:49,260 --> 00:14:53,800 She advised the jacket had a collar and he had his hood up from his clothing underneath 224 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,200 his jacket. 225 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,160 She advised he was wearing baggy jeans and was taller than her. 226 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,840 She advised her head came up approximately to his shoulder. 227 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:08,800 She said that second girl, girl number two, said hi to the man and he said nothing back. 228 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,820 She stated that he was walking with a purpose like he knew where he was going and that his 229 00:15:12,820 --> 00:15:15,760 hands were in his pocket and he kept his face down. 230 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,040 She said she did not get a good look at his face, but believed him to be a white male. 231 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:25,960 And the girl said that they encountered him when they were walking over the Freedom Bridge, 232 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,920 which is another old railroad track that has been built more recently that's part of this 233 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:36,160 trail system, but it's not the same bridge that Abby and Libby were on. 234 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:42,200 So I think this part about the girls is really interesting because their descriptions of 235 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:48,040 the man they see are all kind of different, which I think is just a great example of how 236 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,080 witness statements aren't always that credible because these were three girls there at the 237 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:58,000 same time that saw the same person but describe him wearing different things. 238 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,400 Like one girl says he was in all black. 239 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:05,600 The first and third girl are more consistent, but there are still differences in it. 240 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,760 And I would say the third girl is kind of most on the money with the image we all have 241 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,200 of this guy on the bridge. 242 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,000 But I thought that was really interesting, just the variation in how they described what 243 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,240 he was wearing. 244 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,040 So then another woman, she is also at the bridge. 245 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,220 She's not a juvenile. 246 00:16:23,220 --> 00:16:24,400 She is an adult. 247 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:29,960 I just have her in here as Jane Doe as my notes. 248 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:36,880 And she is, I think, kind of an important witness because she gets there just like five 249 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,640 minutes, less than five minutes before Abby and Libby are dropped off. 250 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,900 So she's kind of on the trails at the exact same time as them. 251 00:16:43,900 --> 00:16:50,440 And she says as she's traveling in, she saw four young girls, four juvenile girls walking 252 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:56,480 on the Freedom Bridge, which is the bridge I just mentioned, not the High Bridge. 253 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:01,280 When she gets there, she says there's no other cars parked in that parking lot to where you 254 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,400 can get on the trails where Abby and Libby are ultimately dropped off just a few minutes 255 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:06,400 later. 256 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,720 So she doesn't see any other cars at that time. 257 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:14,640 So she starts walking the trails heading towards High Bridge and advised that she saw a male 258 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,360 matching the one from Libby's phone. 259 00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:22,180 She described the male she saw as a white male wearing blue jeans and a blue jean jacket. 260 00:17:22,180 --> 00:17:27,680 She advised he was standing on the first platform of the High Bridge, approximately 50 feet 261 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,460 away from her. 262 00:17:29,460 --> 00:17:33,920 She said that when she got to the bridge, she turned around and continued her walk. 263 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:39,520 And about halfway between the bridge and the parking area where her car was, she passed 264 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,280 two girls walking towards High Bridge. 265 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,280 She believed the girls were Abby and Libby. 266 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:52,000 And the videos that we have and the time records that we have from everybody's phone involved 267 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,100 in this, we know that the girls were dropped off at 1.46. 268 00:17:55,100 --> 00:17:59,000 So this would make sense that she saw Abby and Libby as they were walking to the High 269 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,220 Bridge. 270 00:18:00,220 --> 00:18:04,280 And according to this woman, this man was already on the bridge. 271 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:09,960 And when she says the first platform, from my memory, there's like three or maybe four 272 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:17,320 like little square sections that kind of jut off where you can kind of sit and like let 273 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:18,960 your legs hang over. 274 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:19,960 Or you used to be able to. 275 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:21,760 I don't know if you're able to anymore. 276 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,620 So I believe that's what she's referring to. 277 00:18:23,620 --> 00:18:27,640 So he was near the beginning of where you would walk on this train track. 278 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:33,000 So this woman, she also says that as she was leaving the trail, so she gets in her car, 279 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:34,700 she just walked there and back. 280 00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:39,160 She noted there was a vehicle parked in an odd manner at the Old Child Protective Services 281 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:40,460 Building. 282 00:18:40,460 --> 00:18:45,120 She said it was not odd for the vehicle to be parked there, but she noticed it was odd 283 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:49,060 because of the way it was parked, because it was backed into the building. 284 00:18:49,060 --> 00:18:55,600 And then another tip that investigators received from a man, a man who was driving that area 285 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:02,560 around that time on February 13th, 2017, he said he observed a purple PT Cruiser or a 286 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:08,960 small SUV type vehicle on the south side of the Old Child Protective Services Building. 287 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,480 And he said that it seemed as if somebody had backed in to conceal the license plate. 288 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,080 So they both noticed this vehicle that's like parked kind of funny. 289 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,640 So this man and the woman, police have them both draw diagrams of where the car was parked 290 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,860 and they both put it in the same place. 291 00:19:23,860 --> 00:19:29,360 And then another man also comes forward with a tip that said he remembered seeing a smaller 292 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:36,140 dark colored car parked at the CPS Building, but he described it as being a smart car. 293 00:19:36,140 --> 00:19:42,440 So we have some really wildly different statements about what kind of car it is. 294 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:49,820 So it goes from a small SUV PT Cruiser to possibly being a smart car, which are very 295 00:19:49,820 --> 00:19:51,080 different in shape. 296 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,840 So that's a question I have. 297 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,080 Is there another car that came switched out? 298 00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:59,960 Did they see the same car? 299 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:01,640 That's really odd to me. 300 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:06,920 And then the last witness, altogether there's seven witnesses mentioned in this. 301 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,600 The last witness, it's another woman with a tip from February 13th. 302 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:17,100 And she says that as she's driving on the road that leads into the trailhead to where 303 00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:22,720 you can park and everything, she says that she saw a male subject who was wearing a blue 304 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,060 colored jacket and blue jeans and was muddy and bloody. 305 00:20:27,060 --> 00:20:32,240 She further stated that it appeared he had gotten into a fight and she was driving around 306 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:33,580 four o'clock. 307 00:20:33,580 --> 00:20:41,880 So this all happens in the range of three hours, more or less, depending on these witness 308 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:42,880 statements. 309 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,600 Witnesses also have talked to other people who were on the trail after 2 13 that day, 310 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,720 which is when the video cuts off. 311 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,360 That's a very significant time in this case. 312 00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:59,640 But through interviews, none of those individuals encountered the male subjects who was seen 313 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,960 in the video or Abby and Libby. 314 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,420 So they were not seen again after 2 13 PM. 315 00:21:05,420 --> 00:21:12,200 So when they interviewed Richard Allen in 2017, he says that he was on the trail between 316 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:13,680 3 30 and 3 30. 317 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,280 He parked at the old Farm Bureau building and walked to the Freedom Bridge. 318 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:23,200 Now, the old Farm Bureau building doesn't exist and has never existed in Delphi. 319 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,560 So police believe that he is referring to the old CPS building. 320 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:28,720 It was abandoned at this time. 321 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:29,720 No one was using it. 322 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,520 So it was kind of normal for cars to be parked there, but it's since been leveled. 323 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:34,860 It's not there anymore. 324 00:21:34,860 --> 00:21:39,180 So he says that while he was at Freedom Bridge, he saw three females. 325 00:21:39,180 --> 00:21:42,960 He noted that one of them was taller and had brown or black hair. 326 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,080 He did not remember descriptions for all of them, nor did he speak to them. 327 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,840 He walked from Freedom Bridge to High Bridge. 328 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:54,160 He did not see anybody, although he said he was watching a stock ticker on his phone as 329 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:55,160 he walked. 330 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,120 He stated there were vehicles parked at the High Bridge trailhead. 331 00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:03,720 However, he did not pay attention to them and he did not take any photos or videos on 332 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,120 his phone. 333 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:14,000 And in 2017, police say that Richard Allen owned two vehicles, a 2016 black Ford Focus 334 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,200 and a 2006 gray Ford 500. 335 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:26,320 Investigators observed a vehicle that resembled Allen's 2016 Ford Focus on the Hoosier Harvest 336 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:33,360 Store video at 1.27 p.m. traveling towards the trails, which kind of coincides with his 337 00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:34,360 statement. 338 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:38,560 He was there around 1.30 and this video could place his car there. 339 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,960 Investigators note witnesses described the vehicle parked at the former CPS building 340 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,960 as a PT Cruiser, a small SUV or smart car. 341 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:53,840 Investigators believe those descriptions are similar in nature to a 2016 Ford Focus, which 342 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,200 I'm going to say is a stretch. 343 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,240 So police keep investigating. 344 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:06,920 So they talked to him in 2017 and they didn't talk to him again till October 13th, 2022, 345 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,920 when he was interviewed again. 346 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,880 And they asked him about his time on February 13th. 347 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:18,840 And he said that he saw juvenile girls on the trail near the Freedom Bridge and that 348 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,760 he went to High Bridge. 349 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:25,720 Richard Allen further stated he went out onto the High Bridge to watch the fish. 350 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,760 Here in his statement, he said he walked out to the first platform on the bridge. 351 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,600 He stated he then walked back, sat on a bench on the trail and then left. 352 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,280 He stated he parked his car on the side of an old building. 353 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,960 He told investigators that he was wearing blue jeans and a blue or black Carhartt jacket 354 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:43,960 with a hood. 355 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,080 He advised he may have been wearing some type of hood covering as well. 356 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,560 He further claimed he saw no one else except for the juvenile girls he saw near Freedom 357 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:53,560 Bridge. 358 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,680 And he told investigators that he did own firearms in his home. 359 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,800 And his wife also confirmed that he did have guns and knives in the residence and he did 360 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,720 still own a blue Carhartt jacket. 361 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,840 So all of those things were in his possession, but not illegal. 362 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:15,280 So on October 13th, investigators get a search warrant for Richard Allen's home. 363 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:22,360 And among the items collected, officers locate jackets, boots, knives, firearms, including 364 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:26,560 a specific model, a.40 caliber pistol. 365 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:33,320 The pistol is important and the gun is important because between Abby and Libby, police found 366 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,440 an unspent bullet with extraction marks on it. 367 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:43,200 And police confiscate this.40 caliber gun because it matches the bullet. 368 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,040 And they send it to the laboratory for ballistic testings. 369 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,800 And it comes back with sufficient agreement is related to the significant duplication 370 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,760 of random saturated impressed marks as evidenced by the correspondent of pattern or combinations 371 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,400 of patterns of surface contours. 372 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:06,080 The interpretation of ID is subject in nature and based on relative scientific research 373 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,280 and the reporting and examiner's training and experience. 374 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,400 So that's like a really fancy way for the laboratory to say that like it was a match, 375 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:19,600 but it is based on this one person's experience and training in the area. 376 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:25,300 Because ballistic testing has really kind of come under scrutiny recently in courts. 377 00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:26,840 It's being challenged a lot. 378 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,600 Some argue that it is more of an art than a science. 379 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,680 And so you can't lean as heavily on it. 380 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:39,320 It's more circumstantial, but that seems to be the big piece of evidence and like the 381 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,800 nail in the coffin for them to arrest Richard Allen, because he says that he has owned the 382 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,520 gun since 2001 and he never let anyone else borrow it. 383 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:54,040 And so basically the state's case is kind of summarized by these witness statements 384 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,040 and by the gun, the unspent bullet. 385 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,920 And I had to really look up what an unspent bullet was because I wasn't quite sure if 386 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:07,400 it was something that had fired out of the barrel, but maybe didn't like was a dud, like 387 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,680 didn't explode or like impact or anything like that. 388 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:17,280 But just an unspent bullet, it means it was loaded into the gun, but it was never fired. 389 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:23,460 So the marks on it is really just like it being pulled up into the chamber. 390 00:26:23,460 --> 00:26:29,920 So it doesn't even have the striation marks of going down the barrel on it. 391 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:37,040 And Richard Allen's defense attorney has also released a statement once the affidavit was 392 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:43,040 released and in it he says that Rick is a 50 year old man who has never been arrested 393 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,460 or accused of any crime in his life. 394 00:26:45,460 --> 00:26:52,680 And he says that the police did not contact Rick after Abby and Libby's death, but Rick 395 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:58,160 contacted the police to say that he was on the trails that day to try to offer any assistance 396 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,640 to the police of maybe what he might have seen or done that day. 397 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,660 And his lawyer says without Rick coming forward, the police probably would not have had any 398 00:27:07,660 --> 00:27:10,160 way of knowing that he was on the trail that day. 399 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,920 He says Rick tried to assist the investigators and told the police that he did recall seeing 400 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,760 three younger girls on the trail that day. 401 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,360 His contact with the girls were brief and of little significance. 402 00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:25,840 And the next time Rick heard from the police was in October of 2022. 403 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:31,040 This was approximately two weeks before a contested sheriff's election and within days 404 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,760 of a federal lawsuit filed against the Carroll County Sheriff's Office by its former second 405 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,140 in command, Michael Thomas. 406 00:27:38,140 --> 00:27:44,280 In the lawsuit, Thomas claims that he had made suggestions and offered assistance in 407 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:49,240 the investigation of a high profile child homicide investigation, but those suggestions 408 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,300 and offers were rejected by the sheriff. 409 00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:56,460 Thomas further claimed that the sheriff and others in the department feared that disagreements 410 00:27:56,460 --> 00:28:01,660 with Thomas would become publicized as a result of the political campaign for sheriff. 411 00:28:01,660 --> 00:28:09,600 Thomas claims in the suit that he was ultimately demoted and replaced by Tony LeGate, who later 412 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,920 that year in 2022 would become sheriff. 413 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,000 I think I'm butchering his last name, it might be LeGate, but LeGate. 414 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:21,200 And in this lawsuit that came just a couple of days before the arrest, he also claims 415 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,940 that he was removed from these cases kind of unjustly. 416 00:28:24,940 --> 00:28:31,380 So Rick's lawyer also says in the five plus years, Rick volunteered to provide information 417 00:28:31,380 --> 00:28:32,380 to the police. 418 00:28:32,380 --> 00:28:37,300 He did not get rid of his vehicle or his guns and he did not throw out his clothing. 419 00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:38,940 He did not alter his appearance. 420 00:28:38,940 --> 00:28:41,660 He did not relocate himself to another community. 421 00:28:41,660 --> 00:28:45,860 He did what any innocent man would do and continued with his normal routine. 422 00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:50,580 The probable cause affidavit seems to suggest that a single magic bullet is proof of Rick's 423 00:28:50,580 --> 00:28:51,580 guilt. 424 00:28:51,580 --> 00:28:56,900 It is premature to engage in any detailed discussion regarding the ferocity of this 425 00:28:56,900 --> 00:28:59,580 evidence until more discovery is received. 426 00:28:59,580 --> 00:29:05,380 And he also says that they wanted, they didn't want any of this to remain out of the public 427 00:29:05,380 --> 00:29:06,380 eye. 428 00:29:06,380 --> 00:29:11,140 They want it all out there because they think it will help his defense because they truly 429 00:29:11,140 --> 00:29:13,060 believe he's innocent. 430 00:29:13,060 --> 00:29:16,860 I mean, as a good defense lawyer should, they should believe their client if they are saying 431 00:29:16,860 --> 00:29:20,820 they are innocent, which Richard Allen is saying he is innocent at this time. 432 00:29:20,820 --> 00:29:26,780 Richard Allen's lawyer goes on to say, prosecutors mentioned at the last hearing his belief that 433 00:29:26,780 --> 00:29:32,060 others may have been involved in the killing, yet there is no mention in the probable cause 434 00:29:32,060 --> 00:29:35,760 affidavit about a second suspect involved in the killing. 435 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,300 And that's true. 436 00:29:37,300 --> 00:29:41,620 It doesn't mention anywhere in the arrest warrant that there was somebody else involved, 437 00:29:41,620 --> 00:29:46,740 but police really heavily suggested that and have kind of suggested that from the beginning 438 00:29:46,740 --> 00:29:49,180 as we discussed in our update episode. 439 00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:54,820 And his lawyer also talks about his Ford Focus is not in any way similar to the distinctive 440 00:29:54,820 --> 00:29:58,740 looks of a PT Cruiser or smart car that were described by the witnesses. 441 00:29:58,740 --> 00:30:03,860 So he kind of points to these really shifting car descriptions. 442 00:30:03,860 --> 00:30:09,900 And at this time, this is all the information that we have on the case is this affidavit 443 00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:14,620 that was released with what the police believe is probable cause to arrest him. 444 00:30:14,620 --> 00:30:19,120 And so hopefully there is more, hopefully they have a really strong case to arrest him 445 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,820 and bring all of this to trial. 446 00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:24,900 The judge ultimately since then has issued a gag order. 447 00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:29,220 So I really don't think we're going to hear much about this until he's supposed to have 448 00:30:29,220 --> 00:30:38,180 a bail hearing February 17th, 2023, which is a significant time in the case because 449 00:30:38,180 --> 00:30:42,500 that will be the six year anniversary of the girl's murder. 450 00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:48,700 So I think that week is going to be very high emotionally in Delphi with the anniversary 451 00:30:48,700 --> 00:30:55,260 coming and going and then a bail hearing because his lawyers are arguing that he's innocent. 452 00:30:55,260 --> 00:31:02,140 He should be able to make bail to get out of jail to wait his trial and prosecutors 453 00:31:02,140 --> 00:31:06,660 want to keep them in there because they believe he is the murderer and that he could potentially 454 00:31:06,660 --> 00:31:07,660 run. 455 00:31:07,660 --> 00:31:11,020 So there's going to be hearing about this potentially February of 2023. 456 00:31:11,020 --> 00:31:15,380 So we'll bring you updates on that, but that's really it. 457 00:31:15,380 --> 00:31:18,540 That's all I have for you as far as updates go. 458 00:31:18,540 --> 00:31:22,500 We will be taking a short break next week. 459 00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:27,700 It's Christmas and we're going to go ahead and take the holiday to relax, but we're going 460 00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:34,060 to come back January 2nd, first Monday in 2023, right back at it with more cold cases 461 00:31:34,060 --> 00:31:36,140 and unresolved missing person cases. 462 00:31:36,140 --> 00:31:37,140 Awesome. 463 00:31:37,140 --> 00:31:38,620 Thanks for the wrap up. 464 00:31:38,620 --> 00:31:43,900 And of course, as always like and subscribe wherever you're at, wherever you like to listen 465 00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:48,460 to your podcasts, please follow us on cold and missing on Instagram. 466 00:31:48,460 --> 00:31:53,320 And from there we post lots of photos from the cases we cover and we also have links 467 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,300 in the bio to where you can buy us a coffee if you want to tip us. 468 00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:01,740 And also if you have any cases that you want us to cover that feel important to you or 469 00:32:01,740 --> 00:32:07,020 you don't think have gotten enough media attention, please feel free to email us at cold and missing 470 00:32:07,020 --> 00:32:11,840 at gmail.com and we would love to work with you. 471 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,340 So have a good week and stay safe. 472 00:32:13,340 --> 00:32:20,340 Y'all.