WEBVTT 00:00:08.269 --> 00:00:10.810 The views and opinions expressed in Cold and 00:00:10.810 --> 00:00:13.710 Missing are exclusively those of the hosts. All 00:00:13.710 --> 00:00:16.129 parties mentioned are considered innocent until 00:00:16.129 --> 00:00:18.969 proven guilty in a court of law. Cold and Missing 00:00:18.969 --> 00:00:22.410 also contains adult themes and languages. Listener 00:00:22.410 --> 00:00:26.269 discretion is advised. I'm your host, Ali McLaughlin 00:00:26.269 --> 00:00:29.010 -Sulkowski. And I'm your co -host, Eli Sulkowski. 00:00:29.230 --> 00:00:31.269 And this is Cold and Missing, where we cover 00:00:31.269 --> 00:00:35.259 cold cases and missing person cases. Hello, everyone, 00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:37.539 and welcome back to Cold and Missing. I'm your 00:00:37.539 --> 00:00:40.320 host, Allie. And I'm your co -host, Eli. Welcome 00:00:40.320 --> 00:00:43.859 back, everyone. We are going to just get right 00:00:43.859 --> 00:00:47.840 into it this week. We're on episode 124 this 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:51.899 week, and we're covering a missing case. That's 00:00:51.899 --> 00:00:55.659 right, episode 124. And yes, we are covering 00:00:55.659 --> 00:00:59.450 a missing person case today. So just as a quick 00:00:59.450 --> 00:01:02.590 content warning at the top, this case does involve 00:01:02.590 --> 00:01:05.269 a young person, and there are some brief mentions 00:01:05.269 --> 00:01:09.810 of sexual assault. Today, we are talking about 00:01:09.810 --> 00:01:13.569 the missing person case of Karen Grejeda, and 00:01:13.569 --> 00:01:17.609 this takes place in January of 1996 in Tucson, 00:01:17.829 --> 00:01:21.450 Arizona. But first, a little bit about Karen. 00:01:21.930 --> 00:01:26.620 Karen is 7 years old in 1996. She lives with 00:01:26.620 --> 00:01:29.379 her mother, Rosalba, and her younger sister, 00:01:29.739 --> 00:01:33.680 Alejandra, in the Suararo Crest Apartments in 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:37.159 Tucson, Arizona. Karen speaks both English and 00:01:37.159 --> 00:01:40.420 Spanish with ease. Her mother only speaks Spanish, 00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:43.840 and her father lived and worked in Mexico. Her 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:45.939 parents were no longer together at this time. 00:01:46.420 --> 00:01:49.000 Karen is a first grader at Elvira Elementary 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:51.739 School, where she was known as an outgoing child. 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:54.760 She liked to write poems and stories and was 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:58.299 talkative. The apartment complex where she lived 00:01:58.299 --> 00:02:00.540 had a lot of other children, so there was always 00:02:00.540 --> 00:02:03.000 someone to play with, always a friend nearby. 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:08.199 At this time in 1996, Karen has shoulder -length 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:12.360 black hair and brown eyes. She is 3 foot 5 inches 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:15.979 tall with a thin build. She was also missing 00:02:15.979 --> 00:02:20.259 her front teeth. And now, a timeline of events. 00:02:21.419 --> 00:02:26.599 On Thursday, January 11th, 1996. Karen had a 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:29.800 very normal day at Elvira Elementary School and 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:32.219 came home that evening and dropped her bag off 00:02:32.219 --> 00:02:35.439 at her apartment. She's wearing a light pastel 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:38.699 flowered short and a faded purple shirt with 00:02:38.699 --> 00:02:42.120 white writing on the front. Karen headed outside 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:45.560 to play. It appears that she hit all the major 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:48.939 childhood activities. She took her bike out for 00:02:48.939 --> 00:02:52.419 a ride. came in and played some Super Mario on 00:02:52.419 --> 00:02:54.639 her Nintendo and then picked up her room a bit. 00:02:55.300 --> 00:02:57.560 She then headed back outside with her roller 00:02:57.560 --> 00:02:59.900 skates on to keep playing with her little sister 00:02:59.900 --> 00:03:03.740 and their friends in the complex. At around 5 00:03:03.740 --> 00:03:07.120 .45 p .m., Karen came back in the apartment and 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:09.659 dropped off her skates and asked her mom if she 00:03:09.659 --> 00:03:12.580 could go back outside to play. Her mother agreed 00:03:12.580 --> 00:03:15.240 but reminded her that she needed to be back soon 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:18.680 since dinner was almost ready. Karen told her 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:21.699 mom okay and ran back outside to continue playing. 00:03:23.020 --> 00:03:26.180 At around 6 p .m., so just 15 minutes later, 00:03:26.460 --> 00:03:30.419 dinner was ready. Rosalba called for her daughters 00:03:30.419 --> 00:03:34.280 to come in and eat. Karen's little sister, Alejandra, 00:03:34.500 --> 00:03:38.120 came back to the apartment. When her mom asked 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:40.439 where Karen was, she responded with that she 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:43.159 didn't know. They had lost track of each other 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:46.550 while they were playing. They both expected Karen 00:03:46.550 --> 00:03:50.069 to walk in the door at any moment. When Karen 00:03:50.069 --> 00:03:52.590 didn't turn up in a few minutes, Rosalba heads 00:03:52.590 --> 00:03:55.870 outside to look for her. There were still several 00:03:55.870 --> 00:03:58.969 kids playing in the courtyard. Rosalba asked 00:03:58.969 --> 00:04:01.389 them where Karen is, but they said they didn't 00:04:01.389 --> 00:04:04.789 know. Some kids say they saw Karen walk out of 00:04:04.789 --> 00:04:08.590 the courtyard of the apartment complex. Panic 00:04:08.590 --> 00:04:11.469 starts to rise in Rosalba as it gets darker and 00:04:11.469 --> 00:04:14.849 darker outside. It's unclear exactly when the 00:04:14.849 --> 00:04:16.970 police are called that evening, but it appears 00:04:16.970 --> 00:04:19.430 that it was pretty quickly after Karen was discovered 00:04:19.430 --> 00:04:22.430 missing, and the police immediately spring into 00:04:22.430 --> 00:04:25.509 action. Police search through the night looking 00:04:25.509 --> 00:04:29.329 for Karen, but no sign of her is found. The next 00:04:29.329 --> 00:04:32.089 day, January 12th, police start going door to 00:04:32.089 --> 00:04:34.589 door at the apartment complex looking for Karen. 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:37.420 They start searching apartments in the complex 00:04:37.420 --> 00:04:40.000 as well, checking every small space that Karen 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:42.220 could fit into to make sure she's not there. 00:04:42.779 --> 00:04:45.500 But no one in the complex said they saw anything. 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:49.560 There wasn't any signs of struggle. No one heard 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:52.939 a scream. No one saw anyone strange hanging around 00:04:52.939 --> 00:04:56.040 the apartment complex. Police talk to everyone 00:04:56.040 --> 00:05:00.839 who lives there, all 410 units. No sign of Karen 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:04.540 is found. Police are focusing on searching nine 00:05:04.540 --> 00:05:07.899 square miles around the apartment. They have 00:05:07.899 --> 00:05:11.019 officers and volunteers searching on foot, bike, 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:15.100 car, horseback, ATV, anything trying to find 00:05:15.100 --> 00:05:18.459 a sign of Karen. Investigators are also talking 00:05:18.459 --> 00:05:20.939 with registered sex offenders in the area to 00:05:20.939 --> 00:05:23.040 check on their alibi for the time that Karen 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:26.800 went missing. As news spreads of the missing 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:29.180 little girl, some possible sightings do come 00:05:29.180 --> 00:05:32.660 in, but none of them lead to Karen. The most 00:05:32.660 --> 00:05:35.360 promising was a girl matching Karen's description 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:38.459 was seen crying at a grocery store a few miles 00:05:38.459 --> 00:05:40.899 away from the apartment complex on the night 00:05:40.899 --> 00:05:43.579 that Karen went missing. However, the witness 00:05:43.579 --> 00:05:46.079 couldn't remember exactly what time they had 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:49.060 seen the girl. It would have been early evening 00:05:49.060 --> 00:05:53.180 through 6 .30. Karen last walked out of her apartment 00:05:53.180 --> 00:05:56.639 at about 5 .45 p .m., so it's a tight window 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:00.529 at the end there. Karen's mother is hysterical 00:06:00.529 --> 00:06:03.649 by her daughter missing. To complicate matters, 00:06:03.970 --> 00:06:06.829 she's also pregnant at this time with her third 00:06:06.829 --> 00:06:11.290 daughter. Karen's family beg for her safe return. 00:06:11.509 --> 00:06:14.370 Since Rosalba didn't speak English, her sister 00:06:14.370 --> 00:06:17.689 Ruth speaks for her and her family. The family 00:06:17.689 --> 00:06:21.110 speaks to whoever has Karen, quote, have a bit 00:06:21.110 --> 00:06:24.180 of compassion for her mother. Return her as she 00:06:24.180 --> 00:06:27.480 is, alive or dead, because we need to end this 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:31.279 torment, end quote. Police are treating Karen's 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:34.259 case as a missing person, but it's not officially 00:06:34.259 --> 00:06:37.420 ruled a kidnapping at this point. Police say, 00:06:37.459 --> 00:06:40.500 quote, it's anybody's guess. We have insufficient 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:43.720 information to know what happened to her. You 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:46.800 get frustrated. You can theorize or suspect a 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.680 lot of things. To be honest, we looked at everything, 00:06:49.980 --> 00:06:54.279 end quote. Police have theorized everything from 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:57.939 Karen wandering away on her own to a stranger 00:06:57.939 --> 00:07:02.819 kidnapping. As that Friday day progresses, it's 00:07:02.819 --> 00:07:05.459 approaching 24 hours that Karen has been missing. 00:07:05.579 --> 00:07:09.319 There's still no sign of her, and the FBI offers 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:13.279 assistance in the case. Investigators start treating 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:15.980 her case more and more as a kidnapping with each 00:07:15.980 --> 00:07:19.579 growing hour. Over this first weekend that Karen 00:07:19.579 --> 00:07:23.100 went missing, police will search nonstop. They 00:07:23.100 --> 00:07:25.420 search all through the night and keep at it in 00:07:25.420 --> 00:07:28.500 the morning, just rotating officers out to sleep 00:07:28.500 --> 00:07:30.800 and eat, essentially. But there's always people 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:34.259 looking for Karen. Volunteers come in to help 00:07:34.259 --> 00:07:37.000 as well, and family and friends cover Tucson 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:41.839 and Flyers. But by Monday, January 15th, Karen 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:45.120 has been missing since Thursday. Police say that 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:47.500 they have ruled out almost every tip that has 00:07:47.500 --> 00:07:50.259 been called in, and it's nearly 600 of them. 00:07:50.660 --> 00:07:54.079 None of them led to Karen or gave any clue about 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:57.439 what happened to her. The most promising lead 00:07:57.439 --> 00:07:59.899 over the weekend was a set of small footprints 00:07:59.899 --> 00:08:03.620 found on the San Xavier Reservation. When investigators 00:08:03.620 --> 00:08:06.860 take a closer look at the print, the size is 00:08:06.860 --> 00:08:09.759 half an inch too big and the tread pattern of 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:12.339 the shoe didn't match the pair that Karen was 00:08:12.339 --> 00:08:16.250 wearing. Police now are officially handling her 00:08:16.250 --> 00:08:19.430 case as a kidnapping. They're back searching 00:08:19.430 --> 00:08:22.389 that nine miles around the complex, and it's 00:08:22.389 --> 00:08:24.870 reported that some drops of blood are found. 00:08:25.189 --> 00:08:27.870 This is sent for testing, but the results are 00:08:27.870 --> 00:08:30.990 never published, so it's unclear if this is related 00:08:30.990 --> 00:08:34.529 to Karen's case at all. About mid -afternoon 00:08:34.529 --> 00:08:37.529 on Monday, police end the search early and announce 00:08:37.529 --> 00:08:40.009 that the case is being handed off to a special 00:08:40.009 --> 00:08:42.809 team of 10 detectives who are going to work the 00:08:42.809 --> 00:08:46.509 case. Karen's father had flown in from Mexico 00:08:46.509 --> 00:08:49.570 to help aid in the search, and he says, quote, 00:08:49.690 --> 00:08:53.090 I believe that she's okay. I think they would 00:08:53.090 --> 00:08:55.629 have found something by now if that was not the 00:08:55.629 --> 00:08:59.049 case. As long as she's alive, we can work on 00:08:59.049 --> 00:09:01.970 handling whatever happened to her. End quote. 00:09:02.429 --> 00:09:06.340 On Thursday, January 18th, Karen has been missing 00:09:06.340 --> 00:09:08.779 for one week. Police announced that they got 00:09:08.779 --> 00:09:11.679 a tip on the tip line. Someone had called in 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:14.320 saying that they had seen a white compact car 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:18.039 cruising the area where Karen had lived. Police 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:20.539 asked that whoever called in the tip to please 00:09:20.539 --> 00:09:22.980 call back so they can get more information and 00:09:22.980 --> 00:09:26.440 specifics, like when the car was seen, what time, 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:29.740 where, and any description of the person or people 00:09:29.740 --> 00:09:33.139 inside the car that they could give. Parents 00:09:33.139 --> 00:09:36.480 are scared in Tucson. Karen's disappearance was 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:39.279 on the heels of an attempted abduction in December 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:43.080 of 1995, so a month before Karen went missing. 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:46.379 A young girl was waiting inside her elementary 00:09:46.379 --> 00:09:49.399 school, just inside the doors, when a man approached 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:51.899 and tried to get her to open the locked doors 00:09:51.899 --> 00:09:55.159 and go with him. The girl got scared and left 00:09:55.159 --> 00:09:57.779 and got a janitor and when they both returned, 00:09:57.860 --> 00:10:01.179 the man was gone. Then Karen vanished in January 00:10:01.179 --> 00:10:04.899 of 1996, just a few weeks after this. And then 00:10:04.899 --> 00:10:07.960 one week later, on the 18th, there was another 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:11.340 attempted kidnapping. A mother and her daughter 00:10:11.340 --> 00:10:13.519 were playing in the backyard when the mom stepped 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:15.659 inside for a moment to check on the laundry. 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:19.580 When she returned just a moment later, she saw 00:10:19.580 --> 00:10:22.259 a man trying to lure her daughter over to him. 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:26.399 The mom and the man got into a physical fight, 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:29.779 and thankfully, the family's three dogs started 00:10:29.779 --> 00:10:34.029 to attack the man until he ran off. Police release 00:10:34.029 --> 00:10:36.309 a description of the man. He would have been 00:10:36.309 --> 00:10:39.690 in his late teens or early 20s. He was Hispanic, 00:10:39.850 --> 00:10:42.190 and police note that he would have had several 00:10:42.190 --> 00:10:45.730 dog bites at this time. The special investigating 00:10:45.730 --> 00:10:49.149 team continue to use the FBI resources to aid 00:10:49.149 --> 00:10:52.250 in their search, but still, no big breakthroughs 00:10:52.250 --> 00:10:54.950 in the case come and no evidence of what happened 00:10:54.950 --> 00:10:58.750 to Karen is found. As the weeks press on and 00:10:58.750 --> 00:11:02.110 January turns into February, Billboards of Karen's 00:11:02.110 --> 00:11:04.950 face go up around Tucson, and this continues 00:11:04.950 --> 00:11:08.210 to bring tips in. But again, police are able 00:11:08.210 --> 00:11:11.090 to rule tip after tip out, and none of them lead 00:11:11.090 --> 00:11:13.909 to Karen. It's been almost three weeks since 00:11:13.909 --> 00:11:16.710 Karen was kidnapped, and an 11 -year -old girl 00:11:16.710 --> 00:11:20.669 escapes an attempted abduction as well. She was 00:11:20.669 --> 00:11:23.769 walking just a few houses over from her own house 00:11:23.769 --> 00:11:25.809 to a friend's house so they could walk to school 00:11:25.809 --> 00:11:29.350 together. She was between the two houses when 00:11:29.350 --> 00:11:32.289 a man pulled up in a white, two -door, compact 00:11:32.289 --> 00:11:36.649 car and told her that her mother wanted him to 00:11:36.649 --> 00:11:39.809 drive her to school. The girl takes off running 00:11:39.809 --> 00:11:41.990 to her friend's house, where the friend's older 00:11:41.990 --> 00:11:44.529 brother was outside and saw the whole interaction. 00:11:45.070 --> 00:11:48.090 The driver of the car was described as a white 00:11:48.090 --> 00:11:51.129 man with short to medium -length hair, and he 00:11:51.129 --> 00:11:53.450 was wearing a black and white checkered shirt. 00:11:54.220 --> 00:11:56.620 As it approaches one month that Karen is missing, 00:11:56.759 --> 00:11:59.700 police and FBI return to the apartment complex 00:11:59.700 --> 00:12:03.580 and re -interview all the residents. Investigators 00:12:03.580 --> 00:12:06.059 remain optimistic that Karen is still alive. 00:12:06.500 --> 00:12:22.610 Quote, So we're pretty optimistic that she is 00:12:22.610 --> 00:12:24.730 still alive and that someone is just hanging 00:12:24.730 --> 00:12:27.710 onto her out there for some reason, end quote. 00:12:28.169 --> 00:12:30.750 But the lack of leads is making it difficult 00:12:30.750 --> 00:12:34.210 for police. The FBI wants to create a profile 00:12:34.210 --> 00:12:36.610 of the kidnapper, but there's not enough evidence 00:12:36.610 --> 00:12:39.330 to give them information to build the profile. 00:12:40.129 --> 00:12:43.230 In March, so it's been over two months now since 00:12:43.230 --> 00:12:46.149 Karen was kidnapped, and her mother begs for 00:12:46.149 --> 00:12:48.509 her return and sends a message to her daughter. 00:12:49.070 --> 00:12:52.159 She says, quote, Please help me find my daughter, 00:12:52.220 --> 00:12:54.200 and I'll be grateful to you for the rest of my 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:57.299 life. Whatever kind of information you have, 00:12:57.500 --> 00:13:02.399 please dial 911. Karen, it's your mommy. Wherever 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:05.740 you are, we will find you, darling. Go to a nearby 00:13:05.740 --> 00:13:10.179 telephone and dial 911. We will go for you. I 00:13:10.179 --> 00:13:12.340 and your sister love you and are waiting here 00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:16.419 for you. End quote. Police say that their investigation 00:13:16.419 --> 00:13:19.419 has intensified over the last few months, but 00:13:19.419 --> 00:13:22.960 declined to give any other update. The next update 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:25.620 comes at the end of May, so Karen has been missing 00:13:25.620 --> 00:13:29.120 for over four months. A police sketch is released 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:31.879 of a man that was wanted in a series of sexual 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:35.820 assaults against young girls in 1993, three years 00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:39.440 before Karen vanished. However, police believe 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:43.080 that the same suspect could be connected to Karen's 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.000 case and another unsolved murder of a young girl 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.940 in the area. Eventually, police will arrest Rodolfo 00:13:49.940 --> 00:13:53.100 Sedeno Morales and charge him in relation to 00:13:53.100 --> 00:13:57.220 the 1993 sexual assaults. He is ultimately found 00:13:57.220 --> 00:14:00.980 guilty in 1998 for kidnapping five girls and 00:14:00.980 --> 00:14:05.179 assaulting three of them. He is serving a 248 00:14:05.179 --> 00:14:10.629 -year sentence. Police tie Morales to the unsolved 00:14:10.629 --> 00:14:13.850 murder since he does match a suspect sketch in 00:14:13.850 --> 00:14:17.649 that case, and police link him to Karen's case 00:14:17.649 --> 00:14:21.289 since she matches the profile of the other victims, 00:14:21.690 --> 00:14:25.269 young Hispanic girls who all lived on the south 00:14:25.269 --> 00:14:29.490 side of Tucson in apartment complexes. Additionally, 00:14:29.730 --> 00:14:33.970 to further tie Morales to Karen's case, he had 00:14:33.970 --> 00:14:36.909 lived in the same apartment complex as Karen 00:14:36.909 --> 00:14:40.289 previously. He didn't live there at the time 00:14:40.289 --> 00:14:42.570 of her disappearance, but he still had friends 00:14:42.570 --> 00:14:46.509 that lived at the complex. He remains a strong 00:14:46.509 --> 00:14:49.889 suspect in Karen's case, and really the only 00:14:49.889 --> 00:14:54.210 suspect ever named in her case. Years go by, 00:14:54.330 --> 00:14:57.710 and Karen's case is mentioned in the media, especially 00:14:57.710 --> 00:15:01.759 around anniversaries of her disappearance. Her 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:04.299 mother is a champion of her case and keeps it 00:15:04.299 --> 00:15:07.120 in the media, but there are no new updates, no 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:12.700 new leads, no new suspects. Until 2023. In 2023, 00:15:13.220 --> 00:15:16.679 Karen has been missing for over 27 years, and 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:19.120 police will, without getting into specifics, 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:22.080 say that they are looking at some new suspects. 00:15:23.210 --> 00:15:25.830 They still don't have anything solid in Karen's 00:15:25.830 --> 00:15:28.389 case, but the unsolved murder that I mentioned 00:15:28.389 --> 00:15:31.409 that we'll cover on a future episode of Cold 00:15:31.409 --> 00:15:35.330 and Missing had had advances in forensic technology 00:15:35.330 --> 00:15:37.710 and the police were looking at a new suspect. 00:15:39.450 --> 00:15:43.529 Police believe that Karen's case could be connected 00:15:43.529 --> 00:15:47.330 to this unsolved murder. However, Karen's family 00:15:47.330 --> 00:15:50.850 believe that Morales is guilty of kidnapping 00:15:50.850 --> 00:15:55.320 Karen. But that is all we know about the kidnapping 00:15:55.320 --> 00:16:01.059 of Karen Grejeda in January of 1996. So if you 00:16:01.059 --> 00:16:03.279 know anything about the disappearance of Karen 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:06.480 or her whereabouts today, please call the Tucson 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:15.820 Police at 520 -791 -4444. So that is the case 00:16:15.820 --> 00:16:21.190 of Karen Grejeda. All of the cases that you bring 00:16:21.190 --> 00:16:24.230 to Cold and Missing and that you cover, of course, 00:16:24.250 --> 00:16:28.850 frighten and scare me to listen to them, but 00:16:28.850 --> 00:16:32.370 Karen's case was one of those cases where it 00:16:32.370 --> 00:16:35.850 immediately frightened me. I was very nervous 00:16:35.850 --> 00:16:41.129 listening to this story because it was very easy 00:16:41.129 --> 00:16:46.649 to imagine myself, a 90s kid, the way she... 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.720 Kind of did her little tour when she got home 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:54.039 from school, was very similar to mine. And this 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:59.419 one was very palpable and heartbreaking, very 00:16:59.419 --> 00:17:02.639 hard to listen to. Yeah, I thought that was something 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:04.619 that was really familiar about the case, too, 00:17:04.700 --> 00:17:08.940 was just how normal the after -school activity 00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:11.400 was. Like her, you know, running in and out, 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:13.880 mom cooking dinner, her and her siblings, the 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:16.319 kids in the apartment complex playing, like... 00:17:16.619 --> 00:17:19.779 All of that was so very familiar to me and felt 00:17:19.779 --> 00:17:23.480 familiar to me. And I think that's, you know, 00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:27.680 kind of aids in, like, how terrifying this case 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:31.779 feels because it feels familiar. Yeah, and with 00:17:31.779 --> 00:17:36.019 the familiarity, the other side of that coin 00:17:36.019 --> 00:17:38.839 is the predictability for someone who is trying 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:44.220 to commit a crime like kidnapping, knowing someone's 00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:47.390 schedule, you know. after school schedule or 00:17:47.390 --> 00:17:50.809 whatever the familiarity of her routine felt 00:17:50.809 --> 00:17:53.690 there was a moment of safety in my connection 00:17:53.690 --> 00:17:58.329 to it and immediately was you know ripped away 00:17:58.329 --> 00:18:01.470 because I knew that there was a possibility that 00:18:01.470 --> 00:18:04.009 maybe she was being watched while she was just 00:18:04.009 --> 00:18:07.650 doing her thing. One thing that does kind of 00:18:07.650 --> 00:18:09.769 feel just to pivot into this case a little bit 00:18:09.769 --> 00:18:14.670 is that For Karen to be kidnapped, it was a very 00:18:14.670 --> 00:18:19.750 bold move just because this is a big apartment 00:18:19.750 --> 00:18:25.569 complex, 410 units. It kind of looks like two 00:18:25.569 --> 00:18:28.690 squares sitting next to each other and then courtyards 00:18:28.690 --> 00:18:31.369 in the center. So, you know, everyone would be 00:18:31.369 --> 00:18:33.509 able to see into the courtyard from their building. 00:18:35.029 --> 00:18:39.240 So would have been a very bold. kidnapping because 00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:41.400 there's all these eyes there's kids running around 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:43.660 there's a lot of presence and you know there's 00:18:43.660 --> 00:18:49.000 people outside so yeah this this case baffles 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:55.119 me in a lot of ways um and the disruption of 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:57.099 the routine like you were saying the watching 00:18:57.099 --> 00:19:00.160 like all of that feels present in this case even 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:03.519 though we really don't know that much about what 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.470 really happened I think because we have covered 00:19:07.470 --> 00:19:12.910 cases similar to Karen's, just from investigating 00:19:12.910 --> 00:19:18.690 and listening, you learn the behaviors of perpetrators. 00:19:18.789 --> 00:19:25.990 So when I listened to a case, sadly, I understood 00:19:25.990 --> 00:19:29.890 how this would have been a perfect spot for someone 00:19:29.890 --> 00:19:34.420 who was trying to... maybe committed kidnapping. 00:19:35.380 --> 00:19:40.140 I think that, yes, it is very bold to do it, 00:19:40.140 --> 00:19:43.359 you know, mid -afternoon, after school, dinner's 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:45.940 getting ready, a lot of people around. But also, 00:19:46.019 --> 00:19:48.980 is it a perfect environment for someone like 00:19:48.980 --> 00:19:52.299 that to blend in? And I think that's absolutely 00:19:52.299 --> 00:19:55.440 possible, especially if, you know, they fit the 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.299 demographic of the folks who are already living 00:19:58.299 --> 00:20:02.509 there. The familiarity of Maybe a white compact 00:20:02.509 --> 00:20:06.670 car not looking out of place. Those were all 00:20:06.670 --> 00:20:10.750 things that crossed my mind. Yeah. And that is 00:20:10.750 --> 00:20:13.569 something that, like, I come back to. Like, the 00:20:13.569 --> 00:20:17.089 person who did this fit in there in some way. 00:20:17.170 --> 00:20:20.509 Like, didn't draw attention to themselves, really. 00:20:20.630 --> 00:20:23.660 Because nobody, you know, they asked. All the 00:20:23.660 --> 00:20:25.500 residents, did you see anything? Did you see 00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:28.059 anybody out of the ordinary? And nobody said 00:20:28.059 --> 00:20:31.480 they saw anybody strange. Nobody knew or unfamiliar 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:35.200 hanging around. So it leads me to believe that 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:38.799 it's either, you know, somebody in the apartment 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:45.059 complex proper or somebody who, you know, was 00:20:45.059 --> 00:20:47.220 in and around it a lot and would have just blended 00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:51.430 in. Yeah, I think that just adds another piece 00:20:51.430 --> 00:20:56.049 to an ever -growing puzzle. The possibility of 00:20:56.049 --> 00:20:59.150 it being a bunch of different people who may 00:20:59.150 --> 00:21:02.730 be committed a kidnapping of Karen in such a 00:21:02.730 --> 00:21:06.150 concentrated area can really mess with the community. 00:21:06.730 --> 00:21:11.210 I know I'm often, I think I'm kind of hard on 00:21:11.210 --> 00:21:14.609 law enforcement in a lot of our cases and what 00:21:14.609 --> 00:21:17.519 we cover because You know, they are cold and 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:19.700 missing cases and we do see a lot of mistakes, 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:24.319 but I really appreciated the transparency of 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:27.960 law enforcement here and their willingness to 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:32.359 circle back, even to go back into that same community 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:35.460 and ask questions again, interview people again, 00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:39.720 interview the sex offenders in that area. That 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:42.019 was a question that I wanted to ask you. Is that 00:21:42.019 --> 00:21:46.619 a normal response when there is... A child who 00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:48.720 goes missing that, you know, boots on the ground, 00:21:48.740 --> 00:21:53.539 we're going to go to these people first. Yeah, 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:58.299 it is a pretty standard response. It really started 00:21:58.299 --> 00:22:02.160 probably like mid -90s, I think, you know, once 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:06.990 the sex offender registry was created. published 00:22:06.990 --> 00:22:08.970 and then the law is really starting to get enforced. 00:22:09.349 --> 00:22:10.910 That's one thing that's talked about in this 00:22:10.910 --> 00:22:13.269 list is that the laws around the sex registry 00:22:13.269 --> 00:22:16.549 offender list weren't really enforced. So they 00:22:16.549 --> 00:22:18.569 actually found a lot of people like out of compliance, 00:22:18.849 --> 00:22:21.589 not updating, you know, where they were living, 00:22:21.690 --> 00:22:23.910 their address, things like that. So that was 00:22:23.910 --> 00:22:26.250 actually found through this investigation quite 00:22:26.250 --> 00:22:30.430 a bit. Following law enforcement's timeline and 00:22:30.430 --> 00:22:33.710 just checklist of investigative work that they 00:22:33.710 --> 00:22:36.420 needed to do. I wanted to know if there was any 00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:40.980 follow -up of, you know, the report of the girl 00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:45.220 crying in the grocery store. If there was, I 00:22:45.220 --> 00:22:48.420 know it was 96, but I was curious to know if 00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:51.279 there was maybe footage pulled from the grocery 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:55.460 store just to see who that girl was. So from 00:22:55.460 --> 00:22:58.180 my understanding, there wasn't footage in this 00:22:58.180 --> 00:23:03.440 time in 1996. And police... I do believe tried 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:09.059 to follow up with this lead, but it doesn't seem 00:23:09.059 --> 00:23:12.220 like they were ever able to really find the girl, 00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:14.759 find exactly who the girl was that was there. 00:23:14.859 --> 00:23:18.180 So this is like one lead that just kind of never 00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:21.700 got resolved. Yeah, I think circling back to 00:23:21.700 --> 00:23:26.599 it for me is just wishful thinking. Could you 00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:30.859 bring us back to the moment where... small shoe 00:23:30.859 --> 00:23:34.640 prints were found. I just, I want to clarify 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:40.420 some details there. So, you know, in the 24 hours 00:23:40.420 --> 00:23:43.240 following after Karen goes missing, a report 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:46.339 comes in from the San Xavier Reservation Police 00:23:46.339 --> 00:23:49.859 that they found footprints on the reservation. 00:23:50.359 --> 00:23:52.559 They were small footprints and they were the 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:57.400 same brand of shoe that Karen was wearing. So 00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:00.039 when investigators got there and took a closer 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:03.140 look at it, the shoe was half a size too big 00:24:03.140 --> 00:24:06.920 from what Karen wore, and the tread, the pattern 00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:09.859 on the bottom of the shoe, was different, slightly 00:24:09.859 --> 00:24:13.059 different than the pattern that was on the bottom 00:24:13.059 --> 00:24:15.539 of Karen's shoe that she was wearing. So ultimately, 00:24:15.740 --> 00:24:19.440 the footprints are ruled out. Obviously, I am 00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:22.420 not a detective, not law enforcement, but the 00:24:22.420 --> 00:24:27.549 thought did cross my mind that maybe the The 00:24:27.549 --> 00:24:31.269 perpetrator had the thought to change the shoes. 00:24:32.950 --> 00:24:39.109 Now knowing more details about them being the 00:24:39.109 --> 00:24:42.789 same but just a little bit bigger, I guess to 00:24:42.789 --> 00:24:47.109 answer my own question or wrap up my own thought, 00:24:47.309 --> 00:24:51.289 if a shoe was going to be changed, it would probably 00:24:51.289 --> 00:24:53.950 be a completely different shoe. I didn't know 00:24:53.950 --> 00:24:56.980 if you... If you had any more thoughts or feelings 00:24:56.980 --> 00:25:01.480 about those footprints. No, I had the same thing 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:03.640 where I kept wanting to like come back to those 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:06.599 footprints and be like, well, like what if her 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:08.640 shoe was just a little bit bigger? But then I 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.920 found additional reports that it was the same 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:14.380 brand of shoe, but just the tread was different. 00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:17.859 So like you, I was like, OK, yeah, if somebody 00:25:17.859 --> 00:25:20.720 were to change shoes or even, you know, I don't 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:22.920 know, your foot sliding around when you're walking 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:26.730 or whatever, like. It would it would feel that 00:25:26.730 --> 00:25:30.369 these would not be Karen. But if I remember correctly, 00:25:30.509 --> 00:25:33.710 they were next to like a set of adult footprints. 00:25:34.809 --> 00:25:37.609 So that was another reason that, you know, this 00:25:37.609 --> 00:25:41.190 was thought that it could be Karen. I feel kind 00:25:41.190 --> 00:25:44.529 of uncomfortable with what I want to say, but 00:25:44.529 --> 00:25:47.250 I think it's because I just don't like the reality 00:25:47.250 --> 00:25:53.160 of the sentence. But to me, Arizona. Just itself, 00:25:53.299 --> 00:25:55.940 like the state itself, the terrain, the weather, 00:25:56.019 --> 00:26:01.859 it seems like a good state, place, terrain to 00:26:01.859 --> 00:26:04.119 disappear someone if that's what you are trying 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:08.220 to do. I hate that my brain kind of went there. 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:11.519 Yeah, Arizona is one of those states where you 00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:14.220 really have all sorts of terrain depending on 00:26:14.220 --> 00:26:15.759 where you are in the state. You know, up north 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.420 is mountainous and, you know, we'll get snow 00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:21.660 and then more south is more desert. And, you 00:26:21.660 --> 00:26:25.119 know, it was January when this case took place, 00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:27.779 but Karen was, you know, in shorts and a t -shirt 00:26:27.779 --> 00:26:31.460 because it was warm outside. So you get, you 00:26:31.460 --> 00:26:33.839 know, the full kind of spectrum of weather in 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.119 Arizona. With that comes a lot of different terrain, 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.019 and from my understanding, there's a lot of rural 00:26:41.019 --> 00:26:47.099 terrain. So I think there is a lot of space that's 00:26:47.099 --> 00:26:51.420 very difficult to search and very difficult to 00:26:51.420 --> 00:26:53.700 locate somebody. You know, it's hard just to 00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:58.299 find lost, like, hikers in the desert where you 00:26:58.299 --> 00:27:00.119 kind of know where their last location was, let 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.250 alone just... Trying to find somebody, period. 00:27:03.269 --> 00:27:06.809 So, yeah, the desert is one of those spaces where 00:27:06.809 --> 00:27:11.450 it's very easy to lose track of somebody. My 00:27:11.450 --> 00:27:14.309 brain is bouncing around quite a bit with this 00:27:14.309 --> 00:27:18.710 case, and I think it's the natural inclination 00:27:18.710 --> 00:27:23.569 is to try to solve it. But my last question for 00:27:23.569 --> 00:27:27.609 you about this case is about Karen's case. Do 00:27:27.609 --> 00:27:32.910 you think that it was Morales? It is very hard 00:27:32.910 --> 00:27:36.549 for me to rule him out as a suspect. You know, 00:27:36.549 --> 00:27:39.130 something that an investigator or maybe it was 00:27:39.130 --> 00:27:40.910 a prosecutor, I can't quite remember at the time. 00:27:41.390 --> 00:27:43.730 But something that somebody said was that, like, 00:27:43.750 --> 00:27:47.589 these attempted abductions and this string of 00:27:47.589 --> 00:27:49.410 abductions that seemed to be happening stopped 00:27:49.410 --> 00:27:55.230 after Morales was arrested. So I think there's 00:27:55.230 --> 00:27:58.789 something to that. But, you know, he also doesn't 00:27:58.789 --> 00:28:02.579 fit. All the descriptions like, you know, one 00:28:02.579 --> 00:28:05.640 of the descriptions, it was a white guy. And, 00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:09.359 you know, in that unsolved murder there, they 00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:12.680 think that it was not somebody who was Hispanic. 00:28:12.740 --> 00:28:16.359 So there's just like a lot of moving pieces. 00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:18.799 And I think he's a really good suspect in this 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.079 case. And until I'm able to fully rule him out, 00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:25.160 I think I would keep him, you know, like in the 00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:29.369 suspect pool. And, you know, I. I hope that investigators 00:28:29.369 --> 00:28:32.269 continue to try to talk to him. You know, he's 00:28:32.269 --> 00:28:34.410 still in jail from my understanding. He's still 00:28:34.410 --> 00:28:39.029 serving time. So if he is responsible, hopefully 00:28:39.029 --> 00:28:42.750 we can get some answers someday. I think besides 00:28:42.750 --> 00:28:48.910 not knowing where Karen is, the unbearable heartbreak 00:28:48.910 --> 00:28:52.829 of this case is her mom and sisters at the center 00:28:52.829 --> 00:28:57.240 of this experiencing a pregnancy. During this 00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:04.259 time, again, very palpable. I, you know, you 00:29:04.259 --> 00:29:09.660 can feel how she yearns for her daughter. Just 00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:13.220 an answer, a few answers, you know, you can feel 00:29:13.220 --> 00:29:16.940 the desperation. And I really hope that that 00:29:16.940 --> 00:29:21.960 desperation turns into justice and answers for 00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:25.359 this family. Some form of justice, which I think 00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:29.119 would, just be a little bit of knowledge. Yeah, 00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:32.380 Karen's family is still wanting answers in this 00:29:32.380 --> 00:29:35.000 case. They still want to know where she is, what 00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:39.440 happened to her. So I would love for the family 00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:42.960 to get those answers and for Karen to come home 00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:47.079 in whatever way that looks like. You know, Karen 00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:49.839 should come home and her family should have answers. 00:29:50.779 --> 00:29:53.940 And I hope that we're able to get them in this 00:29:53.940 --> 00:29:57.529 case as you know, other cold cases get solved 00:29:57.529 --> 00:30:01.170 and more and more of them get closed, hopefully 00:30:01.170 --> 00:30:04.930 we get more information on Karen. But again, 00:30:05.029 --> 00:30:07.009 if you know anything about the disappearance 00:30:07.009 --> 00:30:11.009 of Karen in January of 1996 or her whereabouts 00:30:11.009 --> 00:30:13.930 today, please call the Tucson Police Department 00:30:13.930 --> 00:30:21.339 at 520 -791 -4444. We will have pictures of Karen 00:30:21.339 --> 00:30:24.779 on our Instagram at coldandmissing and included 00:30:24.779 --> 00:30:26.960 in those pictures will be some aged progressed 00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:29.319 pictures of what she would look like into her 00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:32.279 20s. So please check those out. Please share 00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:34.380 them. Get Karen's name out there. Get her picture 00:30:34.380 --> 00:30:36.900 out there just in case anybody recognizes her 00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:39.720 and we could get some answers in this case. And 00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:41.900 please follow along if you're not at coldandmissing 00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:45.559 .com. We have all of our old episodes on there. 00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:47.779 You can rate and review us there. We also have 00:30:47.779 --> 00:30:49.990 transcripts. If you or someone you love is hard 00:30:49.990 --> 00:30:51.750 of hearing, you can find all those at our website, 00:30:52.009 --> 00:30:55.690 www .coldandmissing .com. And thank you so much 00:30:55.690 --> 00:30:57.690 to everyone who has rated and reviewed us this 00:30:57.690 --> 00:31:00.450 week. I was able to just watch the reviews just 00:31:00.450 --> 00:31:02.329 kind of tick up and up and up and up. And it 00:31:02.329 --> 00:31:05.009 was so exciting to just see those reviews come 00:31:05.009 --> 00:31:07.190 in, to see these kind reviews come in. So thank 00:31:07.190 --> 00:31:11.069 you so much. You know, Apple Podcasts, it only 00:31:11.069 --> 00:31:15.089 understands subscribes, reviews, five stars. 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:20.480 Give us a minute of your time and rate and review 00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:23.180 us. It helps others find our podcast. Same thing 00:31:23.180 --> 00:31:25.599 goes for Spotify, for Pandora, for everywhere 00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:27.599 else you're listening. If you could rate us and 00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:29.579 review us, that's the only way that our little 00:31:29.579 --> 00:31:32.700 podcast gets to other listeners. Or if you share 00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:35.279 it with people in your life, that works too. 00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:37.980 So thank you if you've done it. Please do it 00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:40.519 again. I'm sorry I always have to end the podcast 00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:43.759 this way. But that is all I have for you this 00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:46.039 week. Thank you so much for listening to Cold 00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:49.420 and Missing. I'm Allie. And I'm Eli. Have a good 00:31:49.420 --> 00:31:51.720 week and stay safe, y 'all. Stay safe, y 'all.