1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,780 The views and opinions expressed in Cold and Missing are exclusively those of the hosts. 2 00:00:13,780 --> 00:00:18,400 All parties mentioned are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. 3 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,160 Cold and Missing also contains adult themes and languages. 4 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,560 Listener discretion is advised. 5 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,280 I'm your host, Ali McLaughlin-Sulkowski. 6 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,680 And I'm your co-host, Eli Sulkowski. 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:34,680 And this is Cold and Missing, where we cover cold cases and missing person cases. 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,040 Hello everyone and welcome back. 9 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:38,280 Welcome back everyone. 10 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:39,280 This is Ali. 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:40,640 And I'm Eli. 12 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,880 And we are on episode 52 of Cold and Missing. 13 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,280 52, alrighty. 14 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:48,880 52 episodes. 15 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,920 That's an episode a week for a year. 16 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:52,920 Amazing. 17 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:53,920 Amazing. 18 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:59,560 And just as a reminder, we mentioned it last episode, but we will be updating our cover 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:06,720 art and our branding on our Instagram and across our social medias and our website. 20 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:12,160 So just remember, be on the lookout for a new look next week. 21 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,160 A new look. 22 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,160 Alright, so episode 52. 23 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,480 52, should we just get into it? 24 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:18,720 Let's do it. 25 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:23,320 So just as a quick content warning, this case does involve children. 26 00:01:23,320 --> 00:01:27,240 Today we are going to be talking about Charles and Jennifer Chia. 27 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:32,360 And this takes place in October of 1989 in Reno, Nevada. 28 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,400 But first, a little bit about Charles and Jennifer. 29 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:40,320 Charles and Jennifer Chia are brother and sister and according to teachers and classmates, 30 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:42,520 they were also best friends. 31 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,240 Charles is 8 years old in 1989. 32 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,920 And his younger sister Jennifer is 6. 33 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,440 Halloween was fast approaching and they already had their matching costumes picked out. 34 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,480 Batman and Batgirl. 35 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,480 They both were learning to play the violin and spent a lot of time together. 36 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,560 Charles also studied taekwondo and loved to be outside. 37 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,000 Jennifer took piano lessons and loved to draw. 38 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:11,200 She also loved to dance and flourished in her tap and ballet classes. 39 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,260 And now a timeline of events. 40 00:02:14,260 --> 00:02:20,880 So just to give you an idea of where we are timing wise, on October 17, 1989, right as 41 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:27,840 they were beginning to broadcast the 1989 World Series, a 6.9 earthquake hit Santa Cruz, 42 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:28,840 California. 43 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:34,760 The next day, Wednesday, October 18, it was a typical day for Charles and Jennifer. 44 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:39,920 They lived with their mother in an apartment on Redfield Parkway in southern Reno, Nevada. 45 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:43,340 Their parents were divorced and their father lived in California. 46 00:02:43,340 --> 00:02:48,960 At this particular time in 1989, their grandmother was watching them as their mother was visiting 47 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,720 family in Taiwan for two weeks, but she would be returning the following day. 48 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:58,960 As the school day ended at Anderson Elementary School, around 3 p.m., Charles and Jennifer 49 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,880 boarded the bus and headed home. 50 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:06,080 Charles is tall for his age, standing at 4'6". 51 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:11,640 He had short, straight, black hair and was wearing a long-sleeved white shirt, blue pants, 52 00:03:11,640 --> 00:03:13,280 and Adidas tennis shoes. 53 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,920 He had his dark blue and red striped backpack with him. 54 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:20,800 Jennifer is wearing a white dress with black flowers and green shoes. 55 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,440 She carries a blue tote bag and a Miss Piggy lunchbox. 56 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:29,000 At around 3.30, they reached their bus stop and exited, headed toward their apartment 57 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,120 building. 58 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:35,240 There was only 100 feet between the bus stop and the door to the apartment complex. 59 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,680 Charles and Jennifer will never arrive home. 60 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,720 At first, their grandmother assumes that their father had stopped by and had them, or perhaps 61 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:47,000 they had gone to the restaurant that their mother ran, the Imperial Palace. 62 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,640 However, by 8 o'clock, when the children hadn't returned, their grandmother called 63 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,760 police and reported them missing. 64 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:58,280 Initially, as police respond, they believe that they will be able to recover the children 65 00:03:58,280 --> 00:03:59,280 quickly. 66 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,680 They reach out to the father, who says he doesn't know where the kids are. 67 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:07,560 Bloodhounds and about 30 officers swarm the apartment complex and the surrounding fields, 68 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,760 looking for Charles and Jennifer, but there are no signs of them. 69 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,040 The bloodhounds are unable to pick up a scent trail. 70 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:19,480 By the next day, October 19, Charles and Jennifer's parents both arrive in Reno. 71 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:24,720 Their father, Gordon Chia, arrived from West Covina, California, and their mother, Ann 72 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,600 Chang, arrived back in the States from Taiwan. 73 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,400 It's only when she arrives that she learns that her children are missing and she's 74 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:32,920 instantly a wreck. 75 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,920 Police begin to question the father to rule out a parental abduction. 76 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,920 Sergeant Keith Schott with the Reno Police says, quote, we're working with the parents 77 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,960 to see who would do this to them. 78 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,360 We have no reason to believe they ran away. 79 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:51,080 Two possibilities are an out and out abduction or a family abduction, end quote. 80 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,560 Police begin going door to door at the apartment complex and also talk to the children that 81 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,680 were still on the bus when Charles and Jennifer got off. 82 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:04,440 Two of the children on the bus say they saw the Chia siblings enter the apartment complex. 83 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,240 By the end of the day, police don't have any solid leads to run down. 84 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:13,280 Early on Friday, October 20, the Chia children have been missing for three days now. 85 00:05:13,280 --> 00:05:16,520 The Reno Police asked the FBI to get involved with the case. 86 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:21,000 While the FBI interviews the family, police hand out flyers all over Reno with Charles 87 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,840 and Jennifer's information. 88 00:05:22,840 --> 00:05:27,480 Secret Witness, a program in Nevada where people can remain anonymous and report tips 89 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,680 to the police, announced a reward for any information leading to the safe return of 90 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:33,680 the children. 91 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,240 Still, as the hours dragged on, police have no leads to follow. 92 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:43,520 Sergeant Keith Schott says, quote, there have been no demands and no ransom calls. 93 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,960 There are no family problems we're aware of, end quote. 94 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,640 Police and the FBI continue to investigate through the weekend. 95 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:56,360 On Sunday, October 22, a man calls the Imperial Palace, the restaurant the children's mother 96 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,000 owns and operates. 97 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,880 He demands $100,000 for the safe return of the children. 98 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,520 One is not at the restaurant when the call comes in, but she'll start to go in every 99 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,080 day in case the person calls again. 100 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:13,320 On Monday, October 23, five days the children have been missing, police head back to the 101 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,600 apartment complex and search the surrounding areas for anything that may have been missed 102 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:18,960 the first time. 103 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,320 It seems like they are successful in gathering more information. 104 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,960 Since the next day, Tuesday, October 24, police announced that they're looking for a man 105 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,960 who was seen by witnesses standing near a pickup truck by the bus stop around the time 106 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,280 the kids would have gotten home from school. 107 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:40,300 Police describe him as a 35-year-old Asian male, about 5'6", wearing a white polo 108 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:45,780 short sleeve shirt and had distinctive round yellow tinted glasses. 109 00:06:45,780 --> 00:06:49,440 Police described the glasses as John Lennon style. 110 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,340 Witnesses say they saw him leaning against an older white American-made pickup truck. 111 00:06:54,340 --> 00:06:57,780 Police are not calling him a suspect or even a person of interest. 112 00:06:57,780 --> 00:07:01,920 They just want to talk to him to see if he saw anything that afternoon. 113 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,720 Anne is still at the Imperial Palace when the phone rings. 114 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,520 It's the same man. 115 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:12,040 And once again, he's demanding $100,000 and he'll return the children safely. 116 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:16,880 Police were quickly trying to track down where the phone call comes from, and they determine 117 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:21,360 that a man named James Grooms was making the phone calls. 118 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:26,320 Police show up to his home expecting to rescue Charles and Jennifer Chia, but they're not 119 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:27,320 there. 120 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,240 There are no signs that the children have ever been in his home. 121 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,640 Police arrest him for trying to extort Anne Chang. 122 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,440 He'll eventually plead guilty to the crime and be sentenced to 10 years in prison. 123 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:42,360 With this dead end, police have no idea where they could be and are starting to believe 124 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,720 that Charles and Jennifer were abducted by a stranger. 125 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:50,720 On Thursday, October 26th, the Chia siblings have been missing for over a week now, and 126 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,880 their classmates are upset by the absence of them. 127 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:58,160 The school holds an open house to pass out missing flyers and buttons with Charles and 128 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,380 Jennifer's school picture on them to help raise awareness. 129 00:08:01,380 --> 00:08:06,520 The students at Anderson Elementary will write over 500 letters to newspapers across the 130 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,280 country to spread the word about their missing classmates. 131 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,040 Police continue to work behind the scenes as the weeks drag on, but there will still 132 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,640 be no signs of Charles or Jennifer. 133 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:22,360 On December 9th, police, after numerous interviews and at least two polygraphs of the children's 134 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,600 father, he is eliminated as a suspect along with the rest of his family. 135 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,600 Police do not believe this was a known abduction, but a stranger abduction. 136 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:35,460 Detective Patrick Murray says, quote, our problem is that we have no idea why. 137 00:08:35,460 --> 00:08:37,080 The kids basically vanished. 138 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,480 The community's involvement has been good. 139 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:44,040 It helped us and we're trying to keep the public's interest up, end quote. 140 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,000 Ann Chang is still a wreck over her missing children. 141 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,020 In newspapers, she begs for her two kids to be sent back to her. 142 00:08:51,020 --> 00:08:53,800 She says, quote, I just have two kids. 143 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,720 Two kids are all my life, end quote. 144 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:03,300 On Wednesday, July 25th, 1990, this is just over nine months that Charles and Jennifer 145 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:04,800 have been missing. 146 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:10,840 Some employees of Caltran turned off I-70 near Blairston, California onto a gravel and 147 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:12,800 dirt highway to eat lunch. 148 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,620 This is around 50 miles from Reno, Nevada. 149 00:09:15,620 --> 00:09:19,720 One of the guys looked down an embankment and saw a human skull sticking up out of the 150 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:20,720 dirt. 151 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,400 They flagged down a California highway patrol car that was passing by to report it. 152 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:31,160 Police descend on the location and find a shallow grave with two small bodies inside. 153 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,420 There are pieces of clothing and bone found scattered around the grave due to animals 154 00:09:35,420 --> 00:09:36,420 in the area. 155 00:09:36,420 --> 00:09:41,640 A responding officer noticed that the clothing they were finding matched the description 156 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,820 of the Chia siblings missing out of Reno. 157 00:09:44,820 --> 00:09:50,160 Police in California contact Reno along with other police agencies who are missing children. 158 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,800 Reno police sent in dental records of the Chia kids for comparison. 159 00:09:54,800 --> 00:10:01,160 The next day, July 26th, the initial autopsy is conducted and it's confirmed via the 160 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,600 dental records that it's Charles and Jennifer Chia. 161 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:09,480 According to police, there were no obvious signs of injury, but further testing was going 162 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:10,680 to be done. 163 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:15,720 Reno police call Ann Chang down to the station in the evening hours to break the news to 164 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:16,720 her. 165 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,120 The news is so upsetting that she goes into shock and police have to call an ambulance 166 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,560 for her. 167 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:26,760 Police continue to investigate the site where the bodies were found and they do say that 168 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:31,660 they're able to find additional evidence, but they don't elaborate on what that is. 169 00:10:31,660 --> 00:10:36,360 Police are unable to determine how long the children were in the grave, but since the 170 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,840 clothing matched what they were last seen wearing, police do believe that they were 171 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,840 killed shortly after their abduction. 172 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,320 It takes about three days for their autopsy to be complete and the police do not give 173 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,600 any details from the report. 174 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:55,960 However, they will mention years later that they were obviously the victims of homicide. 175 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:02,240 Two business owners in Reno post a $50,000 reward for information leading to the conviction 176 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,640 of whoever murdered the Chia children. 177 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,280 Tips are called into the hotline that was specifically set up for this case and police 178 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,000 are confident that they'll be able to solve it. 179 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:18,560 They ask that anyone who was driving through Plumas County, California in October of 1989 180 00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:21,420 to call in with anything that they saw. 181 00:11:21,420 --> 00:11:25,480 Police are hopeful that since there was the earthquake the day before the children were 182 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,120 abducted that people would be more likely to remember the following days surrounding 183 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,920 that event. 184 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:37,560 On August 15th, almost exactly 10 months since the last time Charles and Jennifer were seen 185 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:41,600 alive, they both are laid to rest at the Mountain View Cemetery. 186 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,680 The brother and sister are buried together and they have Donald Duck and Cinderella engraved 187 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:49,520 on their tombstones along with their names. 188 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:54,380 Despite confidence from the police that they were going to solve this case, in November 189 00:11:54,380 --> 00:11:58,280 it's announced that the FBI will take over the investigation. 190 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,900 I assume there were things happening behind the scenes, but the next big breakthrough 191 00:12:02,900 --> 00:12:06,880 in the case comes in August of 1993. 192 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,720 This is over three years since Charles and Jennifer's bodies had been found, but police, 193 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:17,760 along with forensic scientists and forensic anthropologists, return to the shallow grave 194 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,600 to try to find any additional evidence. 195 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:25,160 They end up finding a femur as well as other small bones. 196 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,560 Police don't go into detail, but additional evidence is also found. 197 00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:35,860 In October of 1995, it's been six years since the abduction, police give a huge update 198 00:12:35,860 --> 00:12:37,100 to the public. 199 00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:41,920 The first major update is that they have a suspect, James Grooms. 200 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:46,920 Grooms was the man who was trying to extort the family for $100,000. 201 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:51,400 Police say they found evidence in Grooms' home that he knew the Chia kids beforehand 202 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,440 and knew their mother owned the Imperial Palace. 203 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:59,560 He had also told friends that he had abducted the children along with an accomplice and 204 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:03,760 he could produce no alibi for the day the children were abducted. 205 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:09,320 Police are also wanting to talk to a man with long blonde hair that had donated money to 206 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,400 the children's trust fund after their funeral. 207 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:17,320 He had a huge emotional outburst in the bank and the teller became nervous and turned on 208 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,280 the surveillance footage. 209 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,960 So police are trying to locate him and talk to him. 210 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:28,040 Police also received a tip from a married couple that said they saw a brown van with 211 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:34,640 its back doors open near the gravesite a few weeks after the abduction in 1989. 212 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,900 The brown van is said to have a Miller Lite gear shift. 213 00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:43,000 Police remind the public that they are still looking for the man who was leaning on the 214 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,600 pickup truck near the bus stop the day the Chia children were abducted. 215 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:52,000 Anne publishes an open letter in the newspaper pleading for information. 216 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,520 She says quote, I need the community's help. 217 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,420 I just need to know the answer. 218 00:13:56,420 --> 00:13:59,720 I need to know the reason they took away my two kids. 219 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:00,720 End quote. 220 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,880 She also offers $20,000 of her own money for information. 221 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:11,440 In 1995 the case was being worked by Detective Ron Dreher and he will continue to work the 222 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,100 case even after he retires from the police force. 223 00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:18,720 He says quote, a killer is on the loose in our community. 224 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:23,560 To those with specific information on the Chia murders and who are in the know, please 225 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,640 come forward with any and all information. 226 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:27,640 End quote. 227 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:33,300 Despite this big update from police, the next anniversary rolls around in October of 1996 228 00:14:33,300 --> 00:14:38,560 and police are still at the same spot asking the public for the same information. 229 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:44,080 They have been unable to tie James Grooms to the murder or abduction of the Chia children. 230 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,860 He claims he had nothing to do with the murders. 231 00:14:46,860 --> 00:14:53,480 In May of 1998, James Grooms is released from prison having served nine out of his 10 year 232 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:54,520 sentence. 233 00:14:54,520 --> 00:15:00,080 At the 10 year anniversary of the children's abduction, so October 1999, police asked the 234 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,480 media to run lots of stories on Charles and Jennifer in hopes of stirring up some new 235 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,320 leads and this year it works. 236 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,680 Police say they had a major lead come in. 237 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:15,840 The caller said they had seen a 1966 white Volkswagen hatchback near where the children 238 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,000 were buried. 239 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:22,180 James Grooms owned the exact same type of vehicle in 1989. 240 00:15:22,180 --> 00:15:26,840 Police are able to track down the prior owner of the vehicle and get the VIN number and 241 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:28,560 a picture of the car. 242 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:33,440 Police search registered vehicles in the United States, but it's not registered anywhere. 243 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,960 The last registered owner was James Grooms. 244 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,720 Police ask for the public's help in finding the car. 245 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:45,120 Deputy Chief Jim Watson says quote, even if it's crushed, we can get that vehicle back. 246 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,200 There may be some trace evidence in it. 247 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:48,200 End quote. 248 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,080 Police consider this the biggest lead in the case that they've had in years. 249 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:57,320 Police tracked down James Grooms, who at this time lived in California, to talk to him about 250 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:58,920 the vehicle. 251 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,560 After police contact him though, he goes on the run and police are not able to find him 252 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,240 to question him again. 253 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,880 Deputy Chief Watson said this about Grooms quote, he has always been a subject of the 254 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,280 investigation all these years. 255 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,320 We've spent time investigating him, trying to connect him to the crime, but have never 256 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,520 developed enough information to make an arrest. 257 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:20,520 End quote. 258 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,400 Ann is hopeful, but realistic with the break in the case. 259 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,800 She says quote, I'm still so happy that people come out to talk to detectives and give them 260 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:28,900 information. 261 00:16:28,900 --> 00:16:30,640 This is a really good sign. 262 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,360 I just don't know how they will find the car. 263 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:34,440 End quote. 264 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,920 Police search for the Volkswagen for years, but are never able to locate it. 265 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,880 Every October, the police ask the local media to cover the story to keep the public interest 266 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,880 in the case and to hopefully get more leads. 267 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:53,240 As technology advances and DNA becomes more commonplace, police announce in 2002 that 268 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,640 they do not have any DNA in this case. 269 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:03,040 In October of 2005, so this is 16 years since the murder of Charles and Jennifer, police 270 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:08,200 say they still are looking for the same information and beg the public to come forward if they 271 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,160 know anything about the crime. 272 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:15,280 The next month, in November, James Grooms is arrested on unrelated charges and he gives 273 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:16,780 a jailhouse interview. 274 00:17:16,780 --> 00:17:21,160 He says quote, I will always be one of the prime suspects in this case until the killer 275 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:22,160 is found. 276 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:23,800 I wish this could be solved. 277 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,240 I made the phone calls, but I had nothing to do with the killing of those kids. 278 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:29,240 End quote. 279 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:34,360 Grooms says he saw the abduction on TV in 1989 and was using a lot of drugs at that 280 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:38,240 time and made the phone call trying to get money to support his habit. 281 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:43,120 He had also eaten at the Imperial Palace before and had the menus at his home. 282 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:47,600 He says he called the restaurant three times, two times asking for the money and the third 283 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:53,000 time he told Ann that he didn't know anything about the children's whereabouts and apologized. 284 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,960 In regards to the Volkswagen, Grooms says that weeks before the abduction, he dropped 285 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:02,080 the car off at an auto repair shop and never returned to pick the car up. 286 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:07,360 He says at the time of the abduction, his only mode of transportation was a bicycle. 287 00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:12,000 Police say that when they arrested Grooms in 1989 on the extortion charges, that they 288 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,960 did not know he owned a Volkswagen at that time, which I take to mean that he did not 289 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,120 have it in his possession the days following the murder. 290 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:26,360 The next year, October 2006, 17 years since the murder of Charles and Jennifer, police 291 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:29,080 asked for the public's help in finding a new person. 292 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,920 They're looking for the man that lived with James Grooms in 1989. 293 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,840 He goes by the nickname Ma, and he also worked at the Imperial Palace. 294 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,320 Ann still thinks about her children every day. 295 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,920 By this time, she has remarried and is raising a young daughter with her new husband, but 296 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,680 the pain remains for Charles and Jennifer. 297 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,680 She says quote, I still wonder why this happened. 298 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,160 It's still a big question in my mind and my heart. 299 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,960 Someone needs to stand up and show the police department who did this because we don't 300 00:18:57,960 --> 00:18:59,640 want anyone else killed. 301 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:00,640 End quote. 302 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,800 As of 2022, so that's 33 years since the abduction and murder of Charles and Jennifer 303 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:11,880 Chia, the Reno police have two retired detectives working solely on this case, one of them being 304 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:13,240 Ron Dreher. 305 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,760 In 2022, police mention that a few days before Charles and Jennifer were abducted, a man 306 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:24,360 with long blonde hair attempted to kidnap two other children in Beckwourth, California, 307 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:26,940 which is about 45 minutes from Reno. 308 00:19:26,940 --> 00:19:31,200 Police are still looking for any information that could lead to the arrest and conviction 309 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,560 of the person or persons who abducted and murdered Charles and Jennifer Chia. 310 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:45,600 So with that, if you know anything, please call the Reno Police Department at 775-334-2677. 311 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:54,800 To remain anonymous, you can call Secret Witness at 775-322-4900 or you can call Ron Dreher 312 00:19:54,800 --> 00:20:00,260 directly at 775-830-8877. 313 00:20:00,260 --> 00:20:05,200 The sources for the timeline today come from Reno Gazette Journal and they covered this 314 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,520 case extensively. 315 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:12,720 I read the most articles from them, the Sacramento Bee, Merced Sunstar, Feather River Bulletin, 316 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,800 Elko Daily Free Press, and Kolo 8 News. 317 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,080 So that is the case of Charles and Jennifer Chia. 318 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:28,440 And the thing that I just kept saying to myself over and over again was, it was 100 feet. 319 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,120 100 feet. 320 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:31,120 A hundred feet. 321 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:33,440 A hundred feet. 322 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:34,440 Wow. 323 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,400 Such a small moment. 324 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:42,240 It's such a small space for two children to go missing. 325 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:43,240 Yeah. 326 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,480 They didn't do anything out of the ordinary. 327 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:47,480 That's the thing. 328 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:48,680 No, they didn't. 329 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:56,880 And that's what's about it because you know some very destructive evil forces on the outside 330 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,200 are at play then. 331 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:09,200 If we can, I'd like to recap the, I guess it's like two or three, in my mind right now, 332 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:20,480 I received it like different men involved slash, because there is the John Lennon guy 333 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:25,120 and then there's James Grooms and then there's Ma. 334 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:26,120 Yeah. 335 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:31,960 So James Grooms, the police get a lot of interest in him because he kind of puts himself into 336 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:38,440 the case by calling the mother and trying to extort $100,000 out of her while her children 337 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:39,440 are missing. 338 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:40,440 Yeah. 339 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:45,040 I mean he says he's been there, he's eaten in there. 340 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:53,280 And his explanation for where his car is, the Volkswagen, is not great. 341 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:54,280 No. 342 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,240 He's like, I have a bike. 343 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:57,240 Yeah. 344 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,760 He said his only mode of transportation was the bike and that he dropped his car off and 345 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,000 just never picked it up. 346 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:08,960 Yeah, that whole part with the cops, them being like, oh, we didn't know he had a Volkswagen. 347 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:09,960 I'm sorry. 348 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,520 I'm not like, I just don't understand. 349 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,160 How did you not know? 350 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:14,160 Yeah. 351 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:19,960 They said that they didn't know at the time of his arrest in 1989 that he had this car 352 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:25,080 registered to him, which again, I just take to mean that it wasn't with him when he was 353 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:26,560 arrested or at his home. 354 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:31,320 So it seems like he had gotten rid of the car by then. 355 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:32,320 Yeah. 356 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:41,880 I don't know why police didn't maybe search at that time for cars registered to his name. 357 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,840 I don't know if that was done, why it wasn't done. 358 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,240 Yeah, I guess that's more of what I'm not asking a question on. 359 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:55,920 I'm more just like commenting on the fact that like, I mean, still 1989, it seems like 360 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:04,600 a very basic thing that even if it wasn't there, simply, I think, asking questions of 361 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:10,280 people who lived around him, even in basic interviews, like, have you ever seen this 362 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:11,280 car? 363 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:12,880 You would have gotten multiple yeses. 364 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:18,760 So I guess I just, you can't answer the question like, hey, what the hell happened in that 365 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:19,760 area? 366 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:20,760 Right. 367 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,560 Why is that? 368 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:27,520 It was instinctual to me to ask the question, so I'm assuming with police work, it's like, 369 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:28,520 yeah. 370 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,480 So I don't understand why there's just like a blank space there. 371 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:38,920 One of the questions that I had, or just if I had the chance to ask police whatever I 372 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:44,920 wanted, I am curious, the man with long blonde hair, they mentioned two men with long blonde 373 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,360 hair, there's the man in the bank who has this big emotional outburst after making a 374 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:56,960 donation so big that the teller gets nervous and she turns on like their surveillance system 375 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,280 to record the guy. 376 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:06,240 And then the other person with or the other man with long blonde hair, police mentioned 377 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:13,300 tried to abduct two children a few days before Charles and Jennifer were abducted. 378 00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:21,080 So I want to know if police think that these two men are connected, if do they meet any 379 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:22,080 similar? 380 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,080 Is it two men? 381 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,080 That's the thing. 382 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:25,080 I'm like, is it actually two men? 383 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:26,080 Or is it the same guy? 384 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,080 Yeah. 385 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:33,640 I mean, the likelihood of it being the same man to me is very, very, very high. 386 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:34,640 Right. 387 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:40,560 And that detail of that man with long blonde hair trying to abduct two children, the fact 388 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:48,320 that it's two children is to me significant because that's a pretty bold move to try to 389 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,120 take two children at the same time. 390 00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:51,120 Yeah. 391 00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:57,200 I mean, it's a bold move to like children are, you can't count on how they're going 392 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:58,200 to react. 393 00:24:58,200 --> 00:24:59,200 No. 394 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:07,440 So like, yeah, I think trying to commit that kind of crime is, you're like taking a very 395 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:08,440 big risk. 396 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,440 Yeah. 397 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,960 I'm just curious about that man. 398 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:21,360 And I almost wonder if like, that should be a focus of police's time and energy is figuring 399 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:27,560 out who this man with long blonde hair is or was. 400 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:34,060 But there are still several outstanding, not suspects, but just like people the police 401 00:25:34,060 --> 00:25:35,320 want to talk to. 402 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,000 There's the man that was seen by the bus stop with the John Lennon glasses. 403 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,000 Yeah. 404 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,080 Police have never found him that I'm aware of. 405 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:48,320 The roommate Ma, who I don't believe has been found. 406 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,560 James Groom, as soon as he's released from prison again, he goes on the run. 407 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,800 So police kind of lose him and find him again. 408 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,900 He kind of drops in and out of police's radar. 409 00:25:58,900 --> 00:26:04,240 And police still want to talk to the married couple that saw the brown van with the Miller 410 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:05,240 light. 411 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,160 There's two cars kind of seen near the gravesite, this brown van and the Volkswagen. 412 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,760 Yeah, the one after the burial, right? 413 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:12,760 Right. 414 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:13,760 Seen around the time. 415 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:14,760 Yeah. 416 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,760 Just a lot of weird characters. 417 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:19,760 But blurred. 418 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,720 It's like it's all smudged. 419 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,720 All the details of that are like, it was just freshly drawn with ink and then someone took 420 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,000 their hand and smudged it all. 421 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,800 All of the details surrounding it. 422 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,020 It's so odd to me. 423 00:26:35,020 --> 00:26:43,280 Just like overall, it's odd because it's a case that like, yes, there were moments of 424 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,800 silence and dust collecting, but that's not because no one was doing anything. 425 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,280 It was just there was no new leads. 426 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,760 This was one of the cases where I was like, they were on it right away. 427 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,120 The parents both came back. 428 00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:59,840 Everything fell in line. 429 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,660 It was like the little details that fell apart this time because they keep up with trying 430 00:27:04,660 --> 00:27:08,360 to figure out what happened to these poor kids. 431 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:09,560 Yeah, absolutely. 432 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,480 Detective Ron Dreher, who's worked the case and is still working it in his retirement. 433 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,280 In his retirement, yeah. 434 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,320 He says this has never been a cold case because they've always been working it. 435 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,720 And a cold case is technically when leads have stopped and investigators stop working 436 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,060 it. 437 00:27:25,060 --> 00:27:30,440 But this has never been cold in the 30 plus years since it's happened. 438 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:35,960 And it's one of the biggest cases in Reno, I'm sure any listeners around that area are 439 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,780 probably familiar, but this is one that I was not familiar with. 440 00:27:40,780 --> 00:27:46,120 And I couldn't find a lot of media outside of Reno, Nevada around it. 441 00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:52,440 Like not a lot of podcasts, no investigation discovery episodes, just really nothing outside 442 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,960 of Reno, Nevada, but the case was very well covered in Reno. 443 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:56,960 Yeah. 444 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:02,320 But hopefully we can get those last pieces of information or people will come forward 445 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:07,040 that either know these people mentioned in the story or have more information and this 446 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,480 case will get solved. 447 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:17,500 If you know anything, please call Reno police at 775-334-2677. 448 00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:25,320 To remain anonymous, you can call secret witness at 775-322-4900. 449 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,280 While you're still in your podcast app, maybe on your phone, if you could just take a second 450 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:30,640 to rate and review us. 451 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,440 If you're an Apple podcast, taking a minute to write us a written review really helps 452 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,920 the podcast find other people and therefore other people find these stories. 453 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:45,840 So just by rating and reviewing you are directly helping the mission of this podcast, which 454 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,220 is to get these stories out to as many people as possible. 455 00:28:50,220 --> 00:28:54,360 If you're not already, you should absolutely follow us on Instagram. 456 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:59,560 You can find us at cold and missing Eli makes beautiful graphics every week of the people 457 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:00,780 that we cover. 458 00:29:00,780 --> 00:29:07,680 So we'll have pictures of Charles and Jennifer this week up on our Instagram and at our website. 459 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,900 You can find us at cold and missing.com on our website. 460 00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:12,200 We also have transcripts. 461 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:17,400 So if you or someone you love is deaf or hard of hearing and want to read along with the 462 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:23,120 podcast, you can find that there along with other pictures and information. 463 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,520 You can review us there. 464 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,080 There's a lot of good stuff on our website. 465 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,760 So check us out there. 466 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,920 And that's all I have. 467 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,960 Have a good week and stay safe y'all. 468 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:54,000 Stay safe y'all.