WEBVTT 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.020 The Ear to Asia podcast is made available on 00:00:03.020 --> 00:00:05.480 the Jakarta Post platform under agreement between 00:00:05.480 --> 00:00:07.599 the Jakarta Post and the University of Melbourne. 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:16.640 Hello, I'm Sami Shah. This is Ear to Asia. A 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:18.800 very interesting phenomenon these days is when 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:22.879 students receive more than one offer, like one 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:25.260 offer from UK, one offer from Australia, they 00:00:25.260 --> 00:00:28.480 will post that on social media and ask for advice. 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:31.399 Which one should I pick? And then all this kind 00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:33.880 of alumni and those college students from these 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:38.250 two institutions will chip in. Chinese international 00:00:38.250 --> 00:00:43.210 students can be Australia's assets as well. They 00:00:43.210 --> 00:00:46.329 do so much in terms of promoting Australian social 00:00:46.329 --> 00:00:49.729 and cultural events in Chinese social media. 00:00:49.890 --> 00:00:53.770 And they sustain transnational ties with Australian 00:00:53.770 --> 00:00:57.530 society and economy, even after graduating from 00:00:57.530 --> 00:01:03.049 Australia. In this episode, how Chinese international 00:01:03.049 --> 00:01:06.329 students navigate their experience in the West. 00:01:09.420 --> 00:01:12.140 Ear to Asia is the podcast from Asia Institute, 00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:14.760 the Asia research specialists at the University 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:23.939 of Melbourne. Despite all the talk about trade 00:01:23.939 --> 00:01:27.700 wars and other tensions, China remains the largest 00:01:27.700 --> 00:01:30.510 source of international students worldwide. with 00:01:30.510 --> 00:01:33.010 over 1 million students pursuing higher education 00:01:33.010 --> 00:01:36.430 abroad in pursuit of bachelor's and postgraduate 00:01:36.430 --> 00:01:40.010 programs as a pathway to global careers and potential 00:01:40.010 --> 00:01:43.049 migration, or to take up scholarships and research 00:01:43.049 --> 00:01:47.280 opportunities. Top destinations include, unsurprisingly, 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:49.819 the United States, where students from China 00:01:49.819 --> 00:01:52.540 account for a quarter of all international students. 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:57.060 Australia also ranks high, with over 125 ,000 00:01:57.060 --> 00:02:01.120 Chinese nationals, representing 22 % of all international 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:04.959 uni students. Needless to say, these large international 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:08.199 numbers provide a massive revenue boon for sometimes 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:10.900 cash -strapped institutions of higher learning. 00:02:11.319 --> 00:02:14.460 But what is the experience of Chinese students 00:02:14.460 --> 00:02:17.400 here in Australia? Given their large numbers 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:20.080 and their origins from a country that many Australians 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:23.159 may view with some ambivalence, how are they 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:26.479 being received, embraced or excluded? How are 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:28.699 the Chinese students themselves finding ways 00:02:28.699 --> 00:02:31.800 to cope or thrive in the Australian social and 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:34.629 academic environment? and what policy measures 00:02:34.629 --> 00:02:37.610 could best balance universities' commercial motivations 00:02:37.610 --> 00:02:40.210 with the responsibility to provide meaningful 00:02:40.210 --> 00:02:43.969 education and social experiences. To discuss, 00:02:44.210 --> 00:02:46.569 I am joined by two researchers looking at the 00:02:46.569 --> 00:02:48.789 overseas student experience in Australian higher 00:02:48.789 --> 00:02:53.050 education. Dr. Chiu -Ping Pan is a lecturer in 00:02:53.050 --> 00:02:55.509 Chinese Studies as well as Deputy Director of 00:02:55.509 --> 00:02:57.610 the Centre for Contemporary Chinese Studies here 00:02:57.610 --> 00:03:01.610 at Asia Institute. And Dr. Eric Fu is a Senior 00:03:01.610 --> 00:03:03.729 Research Fellow at the Youth Research Centre, 00:03:03.909 --> 00:03:06.370 part of the Faculty of Education at the University 00:03:06.370 --> 00:03:09.310 of Melbourne. Welcome back, Xiaoping, and welcome, 00:03:09.449 --> 00:03:12.729 Eric. Thank you, Sami, for having us. Thank you. 00:03:13.349 --> 00:03:15.650 Eric, let's start with you. Tell us who Chinese 00:03:15.650 --> 00:03:18.229 international students to Western universities 00:03:18.229 --> 00:03:21.430 are, I mean, as much as we can risk generalizing 00:03:21.430 --> 00:03:26.689 about them. The biggest group would be those 00:03:26.689 --> 00:03:29.439 students who have completed their undergrad study 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:34.139 in China and then come to Australia for a master's 00:03:34.139 --> 00:03:37.919 degree. And I think according to the statistics, 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:42.539 this will be the biggest group. And we also have 00:03:42.539 --> 00:03:46.240 a significant number of students who come to 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:48.780 Australia to pursue their undergrad degree. We 00:03:48.780 --> 00:03:51.419 also have some students come to Australia to 00:03:51.419 --> 00:03:54.319 pursue a professional kind of qualifications 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:58.189 or degree as well. Qiu Ping, can we generalize 00:03:58.189 --> 00:04:01.530 as to where they're from in China, what socioeconomic 00:04:01.530 --> 00:04:03.789 backgrounds, for example, they might occupy? 00:04:04.330 --> 00:04:07.789 Yeah, I think while some generalizations can 00:04:07.789 --> 00:04:10.250 be made, but it's also very important to recognize 00:04:10.250 --> 00:04:14.710 that both commonalities and diversities are very 00:04:14.710 --> 00:04:18.069 much present within this group. So that starts 00:04:18.069 --> 00:04:20.329 probably from talking about the socioeconomic 00:04:20.329 --> 00:04:23.509 status. The majority of Chinese international 00:04:23.509 --> 00:04:26.850 students come from middle and upper middle class 00:04:26.850 --> 00:04:29.990 families. So some research suggests that probably 00:04:29.990 --> 00:04:33.610 85 % of the students will be from this background. 00:04:34.569 --> 00:04:37.550 Most of them will be self -funded, relying on 00:04:37.550 --> 00:04:41.449 family support. But also, there is also a very 00:04:41.449 --> 00:04:44.170 important trend that there is a growing minority 00:04:44.170 --> 00:04:47.490 who receive scholarships to found their study 00:04:47.490 --> 00:04:51.069 abroad experiences. And I myself actually belong 00:04:51.069 --> 00:04:54.550 to the minority group there. And in terms of 00:04:54.550 --> 00:04:57.089 the geographical origin, most of the students, 00:04:57.189 --> 00:05:00.589 quite unsurprisingly, would be coming from China's 00:05:00.589 --> 00:05:05.509 most developed cities around. like 80 % from 00:05:05.509 --> 00:05:09.870 recent research. And as they indicate, 80 % will 00:05:09.870 --> 00:05:12.170 be coming from tier one cities like Beijing, 00:05:12.310 --> 00:05:17.089 Shanghai, or the new tier one cities. So those 00:05:17.089 --> 00:05:19.649 who come from the lower tier cities, I think 00:05:19.649 --> 00:05:22.209 will only account for a very small proportion. 00:05:22.730 --> 00:05:25.550 We don't really have a very specific statistics 00:05:25.550 --> 00:05:30.589 about this. And age -wise, while typically speaking, 00:05:30.750 --> 00:05:33.230 they come to pursue undergraduate and postgraduate 00:05:33.230 --> 00:05:38.810 degrees from 18 years old and in their 20s, but 00:05:38.810 --> 00:05:41.810 there is also a growing trend of students in 00:05:41.810 --> 00:05:46.269 their 30s who want to start their life anew and 00:05:46.269 --> 00:05:50.350 give themselves another choice. And I want to 00:05:50.350 --> 00:05:54.410 add to what Eric has just talked about. like 00:05:54.410 --> 00:05:57.829 who are these Chinese international students 00:05:57.829 --> 00:06:01.069 at Western universities. I think I would like 00:06:01.069 --> 00:06:05.689 to add two more adjectives that I have. One is 00:06:05.689 --> 00:06:09.589 aspirational and the other is open -minded. So 00:06:09.589 --> 00:06:12.810 most of the students who want to do this kind 00:06:12.810 --> 00:06:16.930 of study abroad experience are kind of aspirational, 00:06:16.930 --> 00:06:19.870 trying to enhance their cultural or social capital 00:06:19.870 --> 00:06:23.470 and their competitiveness. And they are also... 00:06:28.950 --> 00:06:31.810 Eric, what are the typical pathways, though, 00:06:31.850 --> 00:06:35.089 for these students to come to overseas studies? 00:06:35.430 --> 00:06:39.069 And is that the same in Australia as it might 00:06:39.069 --> 00:06:53.930 be in the US or UK, for example? by themselves 00:06:53.930 --> 00:06:57.949 or through an educational agent to seek opportunity 00:06:57.949 --> 00:07:02.269 to pursue a master degree overseas. That's the 00:07:02.269 --> 00:07:05.310 I think the most common kind of pathway. Another 00:07:05.310 --> 00:07:10.170 important pathway is because of the high competitiveness 00:07:10.170 --> 00:07:15.569 in the kind of university recruitment exam back 00:07:15.569 --> 00:07:22.519 in China. So a lot of parents actually just put 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:25.639 their children in those international high schools. 00:07:26.180 --> 00:07:29.720 And even some of them just directly send them 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:35.019 to high schools in Australia just to make sure, 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:38.579 you know, they have this opportunity to take 00:07:38.579 --> 00:07:41.459 the VCE or A -level or whatever kind of international 00:07:41.459 --> 00:07:44.800 kind of university recruitment tests and then 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:46.879 send them to those international institutions 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:49.910 for higher education. Do we know if there's any 00:07:49.910 --> 00:07:53.529 criteria that they might have for choosing which 00:07:53.529 --> 00:07:56.910 Western nation they would preference? You know, 00:07:57.009 --> 00:08:00.730 is making it a US versus Australia or Australia 00:08:00.730 --> 00:08:04.029 versus the United Kingdom? What goes into that 00:08:04.029 --> 00:08:07.449 decision making process? There's normally a kind 00:08:07.449 --> 00:08:10.790 of traditional hierarchy in terms of these destinations. 00:08:11.709 --> 00:08:15.170 Despite what is going on in the US, I think traditionally 00:08:15.170 --> 00:08:19.819 US is probably the top. one kind of destinations 00:08:19.819 --> 00:08:24.160 for international students to study. And the 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:27.779 second tier probably would be the UK and also 00:08:27.779 --> 00:08:30.959 other higher educational institutions in Europe. 00:08:31.339 --> 00:08:35.740 And then Australia is sort of, you know, in the 00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:38.740 kind of third position in terms of their choices. 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:43.259 I think in terms of their considerations in choosing 00:08:43.259 --> 00:08:46.200 these institutions, I think this international 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:50.320 ranking really plays a big role. Although there 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:55.200 are a lot of debates about to what extent this 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:59.679 kind of ranking can actually reflect the quality 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:05.450 of education in certain institutions. Given that 00:09:05.450 --> 00:09:08.549 this international ranking is so successfully 00:09:08.549 --> 00:09:12.870 kind of promoted in the international high education 00:09:12.870 --> 00:09:16.049 market, I think that will be the key kind of 00:09:16.049 --> 00:09:21.009 criteria for them to consider. accurate, both 00:09:21.009 --> 00:09:24.490 in terms of the countries that they're applying 00:09:24.490 --> 00:09:26.850 to, but also in terms of the universities. So 00:09:26.850 --> 00:09:29.549 for example, if you know, to be more specific, 00:09:29.769 --> 00:09:32.649 a prestigious university in Australia would still 00:09:32.649 --> 00:09:36.970 rank lower in their consideration than a, you 00:09:36.970 --> 00:09:40.289 know, mid tier or third tier university in the 00:09:40.289 --> 00:09:43.669 US. When it comes to the decision making, it 00:09:43.669 --> 00:09:50.029 has a more complicated kind of feature. So Several 00:09:50.029 --> 00:09:53.070 different factors will come into play, not necessarily 00:09:53.070 --> 00:09:57.190 all relying or determined by where the university 00:09:57.190 --> 00:10:01.070 is located at. As Eric has just mentioned, the 00:10:01.070 --> 00:10:03.909 international global ranking of the universities 00:10:03.909 --> 00:10:06.990 would matter. That's one of the most important 00:10:06.990 --> 00:10:10.730 things that students will look into. So that's 00:10:10.730 --> 00:10:14.809 mostly related to students' aspirations to develop 00:10:14.809 --> 00:10:18.679 their global and... their competitiveness in 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:22.200 the job market, so forming their culture capital 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:24.960 -wise. There are other several factors that will 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:27.700 be very important as well. Say, for example, 00:10:27.700 --> 00:10:30.039 not all the parents that I have talked to will 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:34.240 favor America because America is not always considered 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:38.220 as safe and welcoming, particularly given Trump's 00:10:38.220 --> 00:10:41.059 governance right now. So some of them would choose 00:10:41.059 --> 00:10:44.139 Australia or Canada because of what they perceive 00:10:44.139 --> 00:10:49.279 as more welcoming. and safer environment. Australia 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:52.039 also has an advantage because of its proximity 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:56.700 and also time zone alignment with China. Cost 00:10:56.700 --> 00:11:00.200 of living will be a factor that comes into play 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:04.320 as well. And the other thing is actually the 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:07.940 migration possibilities is also something that... 00:11:08.090 --> 00:11:10.590 students will take into consideration as well. 00:11:10.690 --> 00:11:12.769 Although the majority of Chinese international 00:11:12.769 --> 00:11:16.049 students choose to go back to China, but when 00:11:16.049 --> 00:11:18.690 they come to make the decisions, they will think 00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:21.309 about what kind of opportunities that their international 00:11:21.309 --> 00:11:26.070 education will expose themselves to. So I suppose 00:11:26.070 --> 00:11:29.690 that then forces us to ask the expectations of 00:11:29.690 --> 00:11:32.350 Chinese international students, both socially 00:11:32.350 --> 00:11:35.669 and academically, in fact, pre -departure, you 00:11:35.669 --> 00:11:38.049 know, before that moment they get on the plane, 00:11:38.269 --> 00:11:41.750 what do they hope for or expect? And again, I 00:11:41.750 --> 00:11:43.830 understand I'm asking for a generalization here, 00:11:43.909 --> 00:11:46.850 but Xiaoping, do we have any insight into that? 00:11:47.419 --> 00:11:50.139 This also is a very important question if we 00:11:50.139 --> 00:11:53.080 are going to actually develop a more nuanced 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:56.500 understanding of this group, because their expectations 00:11:56.500 --> 00:12:01.100 and their aspirations also vary greatly. So in 00:12:01.100 --> 00:12:04.279 terms of their personal and academic aspirations, 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:08.360 some of them want to actually further develop 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:12.720 their job market competitiveness. So we can see 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:16.259 a lot of Chinese undergraduates who... are who 00:12:16.259 --> 00:12:18.860 haven't really been able to enter into the top 00:12:18.860 --> 00:12:22.460 tier Chinese universities after the college entrance 00:12:22.460 --> 00:12:25.740 examination. They want to go and study overseas 00:12:25.740 --> 00:12:29.659 and get a get themselves into like a higher ranking 00:12:29.659 --> 00:12:32.740 international university. So after graduation, 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:35.820 they can go back to China in Chinese job market. 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.779 They got a more impressive CV suggesting their 00:12:39.779 --> 00:12:42.399 educational background. And in the meantime, 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:45.519 we also need to take into consideration that 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.620 Chinese government, local government, they are 00:12:48.620 --> 00:12:51.820 paying more attention to recruiting overseas 00:12:51.820 --> 00:12:55.860 trained international talents. So in some big 00:12:55.860 --> 00:12:58.639 cities, like in Beijing and Shanghai, they will 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:02.659 actually provide policy incentives, like to invite 00:13:02.659 --> 00:13:05.519 students who graduated from top universities 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:08.840 back to work there. So that also constitutes 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:12.120 as an incentive. But there are also students 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:15.080 who just merely want to expose themselves to 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:17.659 different worlds. They want to get themselves 00:13:17.659 --> 00:13:22.120 to know the broader world and to provide themselves 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:26.919 with an alternative way of life. You did raise 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:30.419 a very interesting point there that some of the 00:13:30.419 --> 00:13:33.000 Chinese universities they might not be able to 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:34.919 get into because of how prestigious they are 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:36.820 and how difficult they are for admission, but 00:13:36.820 --> 00:13:38.500 they would then get into a university in the 00:13:38.500 --> 00:13:41.700 West. And yet somehow that foreign degree is 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:45.940 seen as more valuable back in China. Does that 00:13:45.940 --> 00:13:48.879 mean that some of the students are now using 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:52.240 this as a shortcut to get a prestigious job that 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:53.960 they would not be able to get if they just stayed 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:57.320 in China? I think this is a quite complicated 00:13:57.320 --> 00:14:00.639 issue. So first of all, we all understand that 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.759 the college entrance examination in China is 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:07.100 super competitive, and it shouldn't be taken 00:14:07.100 --> 00:14:10.580 for granted that the higher the score is, the 00:14:10.580 --> 00:14:13.620 more talented a student is, because there are 00:14:13.620 --> 00:14:16.419 very significant regional differences. If you 00:14:16.419 --> 00:14:19.340 are, say, born in Beijing, there is a much higher 00:14:19.340 --> 00:14:22.139 chance for you to enter into Peking University 00:14:22.139 --> 00:14:27.029 than some other students. less advantageous social 00:14:27.029 --> 00:14:31.090 economic backgrounds in a remote area. So otherwise, 00:14:31.269 --> 00:14:35.230 I think international education, people do see 00:14:35.230 --> 00:14:38.549 value in that because that indicates that your 00:14:38.549 --> 00:14:42.070 ability to get in contact with people from different 00:14:42.070 --> 00:14:45.850 cultural backgrounds, you have this kind of international 00:14:45.850 --> 00:14:49.759 capital that... will showcase that you can tap 00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:53.679 into opportunities that's available, that's afforded 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:57.139 by globalization. That's the reason why those 00:14:57.139 --> 00:15:00.039 big cities are providing incentives to recruit 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:03.399 these overseas trained talents back to China. 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:07.899 Eric, integrating into a foreign society, grappling 00:15:07.899 --> 00:15:10.639 with a foreign language, all while studying for 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:14.220 a higher degree, is a challenging prospect for 00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:16.879 anyone. For Chinese university students here 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:19.840 in Australia, what does the research say about 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:22.559 how successful or otherwise that integration 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:27.039 has been? I would say in general, it's not as 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:33.110 they would expect, you know, in terms of... integration 00:15:33.110 --> 00:15:38.730 academically and socially uh i i i draw on the 00:15:38.730 --> 00:15:41.950 kind of social media comments that given by one 00:15:41.950 --> 00:15:43.870 of the participants from my research he says 00:15:43.870 --> 00:15:49.450 he originally planned to study his master degree 00:15:49.450 --> 00:15:52.570 and then do a bit of part -time job and then 00:15:52.570 --> 00:15:55.090 maybe at towards the end of his study he can 00:15:55.090 --> 00:15:58.830 do some internship as well but the the reality 00:15:58.830 --> 00:16:04.830 is when they come here so he finds 100 % of his 00:16:04.830 --> 00:16:08.950 energy and effort was invested into finishing 00:16:08.950 --> 00:16:14.190 all the assignments on time. So that's one thing. 00:16:14.269 --> 00:16:17.769 The academic pressure that they are facing is 00:16:17.769 --> 00:16:21.820 really immense. Can I drill down into that then? 00:16:21.860 --> 00:16:24.179 Is the linguistic challenge larger for them, 00:16:24.259 --> 00:16:26.620 the academic challenge in terms of Australian 00:16:26.620 --> 00:16:30.100 academic norms and expectations, or the social 00:16:30.100 --> 00:16:32.460 -cultural challenge? What aspect is the most 00:16:32.460 --> 00:16:36.860 time -consuming? I think for them, their top 00:16:36.860 --> 00:16:41.080 priority is to get the qualification. So in that 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:43.740 sense, adjusting to the new kind of academic 00:16:43.740 --> 00:16:48.309 environment and also... try to meet all the requirements 00:16:48.309 --> 00:16:51.330 a qualification requires. That's the, you know, 00:16:51.330 --> 00:16:53.330 I think the main kind of direction for their, 00:16:53.429 --> 00:16:58.309 you know, energy and investment into it. Q. How 00:16:58.309 --> 00:17:03.149 different are Australian academic norms and expectations 00:17:03.149 --> 00:17:05.869 from Chinese academic norms and expectations? 00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:08.859 Thank you for raising this question because I 00:17:08.859 --> 00:17:11.859 was about to add something about this. We wouldn't 00:17:11.859 --> 00:17:14.480 be able to understand Chinese international students 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:17.660 well if we don't bring in the Chinese academic 00:17:17.660 --> 00:17:20.960 higher education norms into our conversation. 00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:23.920 So one thing I would like to point out is actually 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:26.779 because I used to teach in China for three years. 00:17:27.059 --> 00:17:30.890 I would probably say that. The academic culture 00:17:30.890 --> 00:17:34.990 and expectations is quite different in the Chinese 00:17:34.990 --> 00:17:37.990 and Australian context. In the Chinese context, 00:17:38.190 --> 00:17:42.069 students are more used to the form of lecturing. 00:17:42.150 --> 00:17:45.309 So have a lecturer there delivering the course 00:17:45.309 --> 00:17:48.589 content from the very beginning to the very end. 00:17:49.109 --> 00:17:51.730 But increasingly, when Chinese universities have 00:17:51.730 --> 00:17:54.650 got more overseas -trained academics working 00:17:54.650 --> 00:17:58.490 there, it's also changing. I'm not trying to 00:17:58.490 --> 00:18:01.849 overgeneralize here. But generally speaking, 00:18:02.009 --> 00:18:04.410 students have this kind of tendency to believe 00:18:04.410 --> 00:18:09.109 that they should probably not proactively speak 00:18:09.109 --> 00:18:12.470 up unless they've got something really important 00:18:12.470 --> 00:18:15.910 and worth sharing. And that's very different 00:18:15.910 --> 00:18:18.450 here because students are encouraged to share 00:18:18.450 --> 00:18:22.109 their ideas and do not care so much about how 00:18:22.109 --> 00:18:25.369 they would be evaluated, either by their peers 00:18:25.369 --> 00:18:28.970 or teachers, etc. So that's a very big difference. 00:18:29.589 --> 00:18:31.509 Class participation, for example, is seen as 00:18:31.509 --> 00:18:33.630 a hurdle requirement for many subjects. You know, 00:18:33.710 --> 00:18:37.029 you're expected to participate in class. Indeed, 00:18:37.269 --> 00:18:40.130 indeed. And sometimes like when they are not 00:18:40.130 --> 00:18:44.910 really well. prepared for that, it can be a quite 00:18:44.910 --> 00:18:48.609 daunting experience for them to start with. And 00:18:48.609 --> 00:18:50.990 it's a learning process and they need to go through 00:18:50.990 --> 00:18:54.309 sometimes a challenging learning curve to realize 00:18:54.309 --> 00:18:57.150 that. One thing that I did in my class, which 00:18:57.150 --> 00:18:59.349 turned out to be quite helpful, is actually I 00:18:59.349 --> 00:19:02.450 share with them the university policy and guidelines 00:19:02.450 --> 00:19:05.130 about the importance of a safe environment for 00:19:05.130 --> 00:19:08.720 students to speak up. And also in the original, 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.700 like the first few classes, when they are discussing 00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:14.440 just among themselves, sometimes I don't really 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:16.579 mind if they are talking to their peers, they 00:19:16.579 --> 00:19:18.599 are using Chinese, but they do when they are 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:20.759 sharing with the classroom, they share their 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:25.400 findings in English. I feel that is very helpful 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:28.960 to make them to feel safer and to share their 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:33.730 ideas and more comfortable. Eric, how... Challenging 00:19:33.730 --> 00:19:37.250 has that linguistic aspect then been. Xu Yipeng 00:19:37.250 --> 00:19:39.670 is talking about the English presentation in 00:19:39.670 --> 00:19:44.250 class. There have been articles about the difficulties 00:19:44.250 --> 00:19:46.670 many Chinese students have in expressing themselves 00:19:46.670 --> 00:19:49.829 in English with a level of fluency. The prevalence 00:19:49.829 --> 00:19:53.690 of translation apps now might be delaying that 00:19:53.690 --> 00:19:57.369 transition to a higher English standard. Is this 00:19:57.369 --> 00:19:59.670 something that the students are aware of as a 00:19:59.670 --> 00:20:02.150 problem? And are they feeling supported in it? 00:20:02.700 --> 00:20:05.440 You're right. This is a major barrier for their 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:10.180 classroom engagement. So oftentimes when there 00:20:10.180 --> 00:20:13.420 is a discussion point raised in the tutorial 00:20:13.420 --> 00:20:19.420 group, I think Chinese students are a bit reluctant 00:20:19.420 --> 00:20:22.519 to really participate, not simply because they 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:25.799 don't have a point to share or add on to the 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:28.849 discussion. It's mainly, you know, their... concerned 00:20:28.849 --> 00:20:32.289 about language ability and whether they can make 00:20:32.289 --> 00:20:35.170 their point very clearly in English. So that's 00:20:35.170 --> 00:20:39.750 a major barrier for a lot of them. Can I add 00:20:39.750 --> 00:20:44.349 one more thing here? I think this relates to 00:20:44.349 --> 00:20:47.289 the question you raised earlier, Sammy, about 00:20:47.289 --> 00:20:50.250 the difference of the academic culture in classrooms. 00:20:50.670 --> 00:20:54.920 So when Chinese students... were learning English, 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:57.980 their learning process is very much dominated 00:20:57.980 --> 00:21:01.519 by the pattern of teachers correcting them or 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:04.880 themselves correcting themselves. So grammatical 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:09.400 mistakes and also like other mistakes were accents 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:12.680 are huge in terms of their when they were thinking 00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:15.200 about what they are saying so i can i relate 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:16.900 to that because i used to be an international 00:21:16.900 --> 00:21:20.579 student so when i was about to speak up my heart 00:21:20.579 --> 00:21:22.940 would be pounding and i will be like thinking 00:21:22.940 --> 00:21:26.200 to myself While I'm talking, so first of all, 00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:29.579 I need to summon my courage to speak up. And 00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:32.119 when I finally started to speak, there are two 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:35.859 people in my mind. One is in charge of speaking 00:21:35.859 --> 00:21:40.200 and the other small person there would be listening 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:43.039 to what is being said and then criticize myself 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:47.819 for it. Every single mistake I met in pronunciation 00:21:47.819 --> 00:21:52.539 and in terms of grammar, etc. So that is also 00:21:52.539 --> 00:21:55.799 some kind of invisible hurdles and battles that 00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:58.480 Chinese international students are dealing with. 00:21:58.660 --> 00:22:02.700 That's very common. How well are Chinese students 00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:06.200 supported by the institutions here then in terms 00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:12.009 of these challenges they face? Xiupeng? I think 00:22:12.009 --> 00:22:14.430 that Australian universities are increasingly 00:22:14.430 --> 00:22:20.009 aware of the need of support amongst international 00:22:20.009 --> 00:22:23.630 students in general. So say, for example, at 00:22:23.630 --> 00:22:26.250 the University of Melbourne, I can see a wide 00:22:26.250 --> 00:22:30.829 range of support being created and being provided, 00:22:30.930 --> 00:22:34.829 such as academic skill hubs, which I often refer 00:22:34.829 --> 00:22:39.029 students to. So they will provide support with... 00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:42.380 presentation skills, or sometimes if you bring 00:22:42.380 --> 00:22:44.519 a piece of writing to them, they will help you 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:47.680 to identify problems and they can help you with 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:51.099 resume writing. And nowadays, there are also 00:22:51.099 --> 00:22:54.519 mental health service that will provide low cost 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:58.700 and language accessible counseling as well. Career 00:22:58.700 --> 00:23:02.460 services will be covered and also sometimes legal 00:23:02.460 --> 00:23:05.599 and visa support will also be available. But 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:09.960 aside from the progress that has been made, there 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:13.420 are also definitely gaps that remains to be filled. 00:23:13.619 --> 00:23:16.319 So say, for example, currently I'm working with 00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:21.680 my students to develop a guideline for anti -scamming 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:24.839 support information sheet for Chinese international 00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:28.759 students. So I was hoping that this kind of co 00:23:28.759 --> 00:23:31.859 -designed workshops will also help to fill in 00:23:31.859 --> 00:23:35.859 those small pieces of gaps. in terms of supporting 00:23:35.859 --> 00:23:39.619 and helping Chinese international students. Eric, 00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:42.420 it's not just the students. What about the lecturers, 00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:45.279 the teachers, the tutors, the course design at 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:48.960 the university? How much does it take into account 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.480 the needs of the international students? I would 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.740 say I will agree with Xu Ping. A lot of improvements 00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:57.920 have been made in the past few years, you know, 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:00.900 as the research evidence starting to, you know, 00:24:00.900 --> 00:24:04.059 picking up. I would say still, the university 00:24:04.059 --> 00:24:07.480 still have a lot of things to do. I've noticed 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:11.240 there are some workshops, you know, to help build 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:15.180 our uni staff cultural competency in terms of 00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:17.839 dealing with students from different cultural 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:23.400 backgrounds. But I would say maybe these initiatives 00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:26.880 could benefit from, you know, including some 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:30.970 of the students and try to, you know, hear from 00:24:30.970 --> 00:24:33.490 them and also co -designing these kind of workshops 00:24:33.490 --> 00:24:37.769 or capacity capacity building programs you know 00:24:37.769 --> 00:24:40.450 wisdom that would be i think a better way to 00:24:40.450 --> 00:24:44.470 go you're listening to air to asia from asia 00:24:44.470 --> 00:24:46.980 institute at the university of melbourne And 00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:49.700 just a reminder to listeners about Asia Institute's 00:24:49.700 --> 00:24:52.460 online publication on Asia and its societies, 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:55.319 politics and cultures. It's called the Melbourne 00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:57.880 Asia Review. It's free to read and it's open 00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:02.140 access at melbourneasiareview .edu .au. You'll 00:25:02.140 --> 00:25:04.640 find articles by some of our regular Air to Asia 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:07.500 guests and by many others. Plus you can catch 00:25:07.500 --> 00:25:09.920 recent episodes of Air to Asia at the Melbourne 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:12.579 Asia Review website, which again you can find 00:25:12.579 --> 00:25:17.269 at melbourneasiareview .edu .au. I'm Sami Shah 00:25:17.269 --> 00:25:20.450 and I'm joined by Dr. Eric Fu and Dr. Chiaoping 00:25:20.450 --> 00:25:23.250 Pan. We're talking about the experience and coping 00:25:23.250 --> 00:25:25.470 strategies of the many Chinese international 00:25:25.470 --> 00:25:29.650 students here in Australia. How are international 00:25:29.650 --> 00:25:34.009 Chinese students here viewed by the local uni 00:25:34.009 --> 00:25:40.240 staff and students? Chiaoping? This kind of perceptions 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:43.940 can vary greatly. Say, for example, on the one 00:25:43.940 --> 00:25:47.000 hand, sometimes they can be framed as an issue 00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:53.220 or sometimes as a risk, like to academic standards 00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:58.940 in Australia, etc. So please allow me to elaborate 00:25:58.940 --> 00:26:02.079 this a little bit. So sometimes Chinese international 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:06.259 students are being framed as problems because 00:26:06.259 --> 00:26:10.460 they would be considered as like deficient in 00:26:10.460 --> 00:26:13.660 terms of language skills their level of engagement 00:26:13.660 --> 00:26:17.740 and they have the stereotypes of coming from 00:26:17.740 --> 00:26:22.700 like rich families etc etc but in the meantime 00:26:22.700 --> 00:26:26.859 what has been actually buried or overshadowed 00:26:26.859 --> 00:26:30.279 by this generalization are what we have talked 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:34.299 about like the minority groups within this um 00:26:34.299 --> 00:26:39.400 big cohort as well and in terms of like um the 00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:41.779 on the other side there are also positive views 00:26:41.779 --> 00:26:45.039 and institutional efforts as well so in general 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.200 i think the higher education sector in australia 00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:51.339 is quite welcoming like being very authentic 00:26:51.339 --> 00:26:55.240 about like the potentials that chinese international 00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:59.140 students can bring to actually financially support 00:26:59.140 --> 00:27:02.859 underfunded university sector and bring along 00:27:02.859 --> 00:27:06.119 more multicultural exposures like for domestic 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:09.299 and other international students here as well. 00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:12.559 So that kind of underpins universities' efforts 00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:15.799 to foster inclusion through policy and programming 00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:20.279 as well. Eric, what can you tell us about the 00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:23.200 well -being and psychological challenges for 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:25.480 these students? What are some common reported 00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:29.539 issues? I think the main challenge for them is 00:27:29.539 --> 00:27:33.980 because they are facing quite a big difficulty 00:27:33.980 --> 00:27:36.920 in making friends and, you know, establish that 00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:40.880 kind of social network in the host society. So 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:44.380 in that sense, that is a big kind of well -being 00:27:44.380 --> 00:27:49.079 concern for this group. I've talked to students 00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:53.000 who really struggle, especially during the COVID 00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:56.259 period. in terms of having a social life and 00:27:56.259 --> 00:27:58.680 having a few friends, you know, to talk to when 00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:01.960 they feel really stressed. So that is really 00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:05.359 have a big impact on their general well -being. 00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:09.240 Jiuping, have they been able to find ways to 00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:14.380 thrive and engage positively? I definitely do 00:28:14.380 --> 00:28:19.240 believe so. What I have been observing and what 00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:21.940 I would like to do further research about is 00:28:21.940 --> 00:28:25.019 actually the creative ways for students to self 00:28:25.019 --> 00:28:28.339 -organize and to address problems they commonly 00:28:28.339 --> 00:28:31.279 face and tackle challenges they commonly face 00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:34.819 and to thrive more positively. So actually, if 00:28:34.819 --> 00:28:37.700 you walk along the Swanstone Street and to Federation 00:28:37.700 --> 00:28:40.799 Square, from time to time you can see more Chinese 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:43.599 international students' presence there, not merely 00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:47.400 as consumers for the bubble tea shops. but also 00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:50.990 as they are. There are music players, there are 00:28:50.990 --> 00:28:55.809 dancers, and there are even Chinese rappers who 00:28:55.809 --> 00:28:58.490 are Chinese international students. So they are 00:28:58.490 --> 00:29:01.930 finding creative ways to showcase their cultural 00:29:01.930 --> 00:29:05.710 identity, their cultural background, etc. And 00:29:05.710 --> 00:29:07.829 also there are, say for example, in the case 00:29:07.829 --> 00:29:10.089 of University of Melbourne, there are increasingly 00:29:10.089 --> 00:29:14.049 more student groups formed by Chinese international 00:29:14.049 --> 00:29:17.009 students. Some are focusing on tackling problems 00:29:17.009 --> 00:29:20.450 here in Australia. Some are also organizing about, 00:29:20.490 --> 00:29:24.390 say, being volunteer teachers in remote areas 00:29:24.390 --> 00:29:28.410 in China. Some are focusing on academic integration 00:29:28.410 --> 00:29:33.130 and also career -wise progression, etc. So I 00:29:33.130 --> 00:29:36.910 think that is a really vibrant area. You can 00:29:36.910 --> 00:29:40.869 see different efforts being put into advancing 00:29:40.869 --> 00:29:45.700 their own welfare. One of the aspects of being 00:29:45.700 --> 00:29:48.720 an international student that is often advertised, 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:52.059 promoted and talked about is the freedom that 00:29:52.059 --> 00:29:54.880 you have as a student traveling away from your 00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:58.299 home. However, how does the potential for political 00:29:58.299 --> 00:30:01.079 pressure or risk of surveillance from Chinese 00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:03.480 authorities color that experience of mainland 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:05.980 Chinese students here? How much freedom do they 00:30:05.980 --> 00:30:09.750 actually have? Eric? That's a sort of thorny 00:30:09.750 --> 00:30:12.970 topic to really talk about. So people would think, 00:30:12.990 --> 00:30:15.890 okay, when they come overseas, they're exposed 00:30:15.890 --> 00:30:20.710 to this kind of liberal society. They have access 00:30:20.710 --> 00:30:23.369 to a whole lot of different information that 00:30:23.369 --> 00:30:27.609 they couldn't access before. But I would say, 00:30:27.769 --> 00:30:32.349 from my research at least, students are more 00:30:32.349 --> 00:30:36.109 likely to become more kind of critical. citizen 00:30:36.109 --> 00:30:40.650 with a kind of global view with them so they 00:30:40.650 --> 00:30:43.529 grow up in a kind of authoritarian kind of society 00:30:43.529 --> 00:30:46.509 and then they also used to you know different 00:30:46.509 --> 00:30:49.029 kind of media context and then they come out 00:30:49.029 --> 00:30:53.430 and with a kind of assumption that we these stepping 00:30:53.430 --> 00:30:56.690 into a free media world but then they will soon 00:30:56.690 --> 00:30:59.990 figure out all the lots of the media reports 00:30:59.990 --> 00:31:02.269 you know in the in the english media mainstream 00:31:02.269 --> 00:31:05.900 media are still more or less you know biased 00:31:05.900 --> 00:31:10.160 as well. So to that degree, and then they will 00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.480 probably try to find the middle way, you know, 00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:15.640 to really critically engage both sides of the 00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:17.700 media sphere and probably become more critical 00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:21.559 in terms of having their own views. Jerry Peng, 00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:24.779 are the students that you engage with, are they 00:31:24.779 --> 00:31:27.519 fearful of surveillance? Are they fearful of 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:30.079 political pressure? Is it something that is even 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.680 entering their concern set? Actually, I think 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:36.460 in my class, one thing that has been really helpful 00:31:36.460 --> 00:31:40.200 to encourage people to speak up is I would emphasize 00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:43.799 that the university policy of creating a safe 00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:46.900 environment and for free speech. So I always 00:31:46.900 --> 00:31:50.809 emphasize that. And when you have created a safe 00:31:50.809 --> 00:31:53.509 classroom environment, we'll be surprised to 00:31:53.509 --> 00:31:57.210 see how actually different ideas will be brought 00:31:57.210 --> 00:32:00.990 about to enrich the classroom. But in the meantime, 00:32:01.309 --> 00:32:05.349 I kind of feel like the discussions about censorship 00:32:05.349 --> 00:32:11.690 in China is also actually undermining the credibility 00:32:11.690 --> 00:32:14.690 of what Chinese students are saying as well, 00:32:14.769 --> 00:32:19.710 because it creates this kind of environment in 00:32:19.710 --> 00:32:23.190 which when Chinese international students are 00:32:23.190 --> 00:32:25.430 critical about Chinese government, they will 00:32:25.430 --> 00:32:29.200 be considered as they have integrated. and they 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:31.220 have mastered the skill of critical thinking, 00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:34.700 and they are more like us now. And when they 00:32:34.700 --> 00:32:38.400 are sharing the genuine kind of recognition or 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:42.240 the sense of pride in China's progress and development, 00:32:42.579 --> 00:32:46.720 sometimes that can be actually suspected, like 00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:50.140 that might be a result of being brainwashed, 00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:53.880 or maybe just being politically naive unless 00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:58.039 proven otherwise. So I kind of think it's concerning. 00:32:58.220 --> 00:33:01.779 thing to always frame Chinese students primarily 00:33:01.779 --> 00:33:05.980 as censored subjects because that actually fundamentally 00:33:05.980 --> 00:33:09.339 positions themselves as different from Western 00:33:09.339 --> 00:33:12.920 students, not just culturally, but also ideologically 00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:17.779 and intellectually. The students don't just exist 00:33:17.779 --> 00:33:21.180 in Western countries. Their families don't just 00:33:21.180 --> 00:33:23.980 exist back in China, but all of them also exist 00:33:23.980 --> 00:33:27.660 in online and digital spaces. So how do the online 00:33:27.660 --> 00:33:29.960 or digital lives of Chinese international students 00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:32.640 play into their experience as students in the 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:36.680 West then? Eric? As I just said, you know, social 00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:39.720 media, they have both sides, English social media 00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:43.339 and also Chinese digital media as well. they 00:33:43.339 --> 00:33:45.680 have these tools and also they've been navigating 00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:49.480 the Chinese internet, you know, maybe since they, 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:52.259 you know, go to high school, you know, and they 00:33:52.259 --> 00:33:54.619 have a very kind of established kind of skill 00:33:54.619 --> 00:33:58.039 set to really navigate their media sphere to 00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:02.220 be engaged in different sorts of social, political 00:34:02.220 --> 00:34:05.539 and cultural kind of participation and activities. 00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:10.199 I think Chinese social media still play a key 00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:13.269 role. for them to navigate their life in the 00:34:13.269 --> 00:34:16.670 West. I think a typical example I could give 00:34:16.670 --> 00:34:22.750 is they start from their decision to choose the 00:34:22.750 --> 00:34:26.570 destination of their study. They will browse 00:34:26.570 --> 00:34:30.630 social media and they will see a lot of social 00:34:30.630 --> 00:34:33.230 media posts made by students who are already 00:34:33.230 --> 00:34:36.929 studying overseas. They will get access to the 00:34:36.929 --> 00:34:40.429 firsthand experience of them studying at a certain... 00:34:40.699 --> 00:34:43.619 institution and a certain destination. So that 00:34:43.619 --> 00:34:47.519 is an important reference. And a very interesting 00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:51.460 phenomenon these days is when students received 00:34:51.460 --> 00:34:56.559 more than one offer to study overseas, like one 00:34:56.559 --> 00:35:00.980 offer from UK, one offer from a university in 00:35:00.980 --> 00:35:05.059 Australia, they will post that on social media 00:35:05.059 --> 00:35:07.840 and asking for advice, you know, which one should 00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:10.460 I pay? And then, you know, All these kind of 00:35:10.460 --> 00:35:13.059 alumni and also current students from these two 00:35:13.059 --> 00:35:16.480 institutions will chip in and share their experiences. 00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:21.219 And then that really shapes their decision in 00:35:21.219 --> 00:35:24.199 terms of study destinations. And also when they 00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:27.719 arrive in Australia, again, social media plays 00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:29.920 a huge role for them to really get necessary 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:32.539 information to navigate their life. And also 00:35:32.539 --> 00:35:34.940 they join different WeChat groups, you know, 00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:38.639 to get information about how to choose a subject. 00:35:39.530 --> 00:35:43.150 And, you know, the workload of each subject that 00:35:43.150 --> 00:35:45.909 entails, you know, all these things and also 00:35:45.909 --> 00:35:49.050 get suggestions and advices from previous students, 00:35:49.210 --> 00:35:51.050 you know, how to navigate their academic life 00:35:51.050 --> 00:35:54.789 as well. It's no secret that Australian and other 00:35:54.789 --> 00:35:57.550 Western institutions recruit large numbers of 00:35:57.550 --> 00:35:59.800 overseas students for the revenue. that they 00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:03.179 bring in. So Eric, how should universities have 00:36:03.179 --> 00:36:05.440 balanced their commercial motivations with the 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:08.639 responsibility to provide meaningful educational 00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:12.079 and social experiences? At the moment, I think 00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:15.780 the Thai education institutions are not really 00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:21.519 fulfilling that kind of promise to really provide 00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:24.380 a very meaningful and valuable educational experience 00:36:24.380 --> 00:36:28.559 for these students. I think one thing... that 00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:31.199 is really notable is a lot of the students complain 00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:34.340 on social media says, okay, I thought I was studying 00:36:34.340 --> 00:36:37.500 in a foreign university. And then when I go to 00:36:37.500 --> 00:36:41.300 class, you know, maybe 70, 80 % of the students 00:36:41.300 --> 00:36:44.239 are actually from my home country, you know, 00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:49.780 and this kind of, you know, and also they oftentimes 00:36:49.780 --> 00:36:53.699 learn, you know, course materials that is really 00:36:53.699 --> 00:36:57.679 hopefully not related to their previous kind 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:01.800 of life experience. So I taught a subject in 00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:05.000 the Faculty of Arts, you know, it's mainly about 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:08.139 media and society, the relationship between media 00:37:08.139 --> 00:37:10.440 and society. And a lot of those course materials 00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:14.860 are based on the media content in the Western 00:37:14.860 --> 00:37:19.239 society, you know, TV drama, music, and film, 00:37:19.460 --> 00:37:23.090 all these things. I would assume a lot of the 00:37:23.090 --> 00:37:25.429 Chinese students would have very limited kind 00:37:25.429 --> 00:37:29.050 of knowledge about. So it's become very difficult 00:37:29.050 --> 00:37:32.510 for them to really relate their previous life 00:37:32.510 --> 00:37:35.590 experience with the content they're really studying. 00:37:36.309 --> 00:37:39.690 Xiaobing, I saw you nodding there. What do you 00:37:39.690 --> 00:37:41.909 think about that challenge for universities to 00:37:41.909 --> 00:37:44.670 balance commercial motivations with their responsibilities? 00:37:45.510 --> 00:37:50.469 I think we have to actually discuss this problem. 00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:55.739 in a more historically informed way. I would 00:37:55.739 --> 00:37:59.079 like to draw upon Professor Greg McCarthy and 00:37:59.079 --> 00:38:02.159 Professor Xianling Song's research on Australian 00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:05.539 higher education. So they have actually pointed 00:38:05.539 --> 00:38:10.059 out several concerning trends that has been underpinning 00:38:10.059 --> 00:38:12.000 the development of Australian higher education. 00:38:12.420 --> 00:38:14.619 One problem is, of course, that what we have 00:38:14.619 --> 00:38:16.960 mentioned about massification, like the large 00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:21.019 inflows of international students. might raise 00:38:21.019 --> 00:38:23.679 an issue about learning and teaching quality. 00:38:23.980 --> 00:38:26.840 And the second is the reliance on international 00:38:26.840 --> 00:38:29.380 students' revenue, which is something that you 00:38:29.380 --> 00:38:33.670 have talked about. Associated with that is actually 00:38:33.670 --> 00:38:36.329 the fact that the government's support for the 00:38:36.329 --> 00:38:39.610 higher education sector is far from enough from 00:38:39.610 --> 00:38:42.050 supporting the functioning and operation of the 00:38:42.050 --> 00:38:45.550 higher education sector. And the third is demoralization 00:38:45.550 --> 00:38:48.429 and insecurity of academic labor, what they call 00:38:48.429 --> 00:38:52.449 as proletarianization of the academic labor. 00:38:52.650 --> 00:38:55.269 And also there is the demise of the principles 00:38:55.269 --> 00:38:59.170 of education, securitization of research collaboration, 00:38:59.670 --> 00:39:03.849 etc. The point that I would like to make here 00:39:03.849 --> 00:39:07.210 is actually when we talk about the dilemma faced 00:39:07.210 --> 00:39:10.769 with commercialization and quality, we need to 00:39:10.769 --> 00:39:14.210 think about what alternative sources and pathways 00:39:14.210 --> 00:39:17.630 are there for the universities to achieve, to 00:39:17.630 --> 00:39:20.769 ensure high quality education can be provided. 00:39:21.170 --> 00:39:25.269 So I think that in today's political discussion, 00:39:25.429 --> 00:39:28.269 we can see a lot of debates about international 00:39:28.269 --> 00:39:32.420 student cap. The higher education, international 00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:35.650 education, I think has... actually being blamed 00:39:35.650 --> 00:39:38.829 for a lot of social problems that's actually 00:39:38.829 --> 00:39:42.190 beyond its capability to solve and also which 00:39:42.190 --> 00:39:45.650 are actually not originated from the sector itself. 00:39:45.989 --> 00:39:49.789 So I would consider that when we talk about the 00:39:49.789 --> 00:39:54.010 problems, we need concerted efforts, not merely 00:39:54.010 --> 00:39:57.050 from the higher education sector, but also the 00:39:57.050 --> 00:40:00.769 government, the policymakers. And say, for example, 00:40:00.769 --> 00:40:03.650 if we are... if we are talking about the housing 00:40:03.650 --> 00:40:07.090 crisis, we need to have researchers input as 00:40:07.090 --> 00:40:09.530 well, like to what extent are the problems being 00:40:09.530 --> 00:40:12.250 caused by international students? And when it 00:40:12.250 --> 00:40:14.789 comes to the teaching quality, for example, to 00:40:14.789 --> 00:40:17.530 what extent is because of the explosion of international 00:40:17.530 --> 00:40:20.829 students? And to what extent it's because of 00:40:20.829 --> 00:40:24.610 the neoliberal trends and love like the higher 00:40:24.610 --> 00:40:27.030 education that has been going on for decades? 00:40:27.289 --> 00:40:31.409 And to what extent it might has to do with on 00:40:31.409 --> 00:40:34.989 the fact that academic jobs are no longer that 00:40:34.989 --> 00:40:38.389 secure. A lot of university teachers are themselves 00:40:38.389 --> 00:40:43.389 facing challenges, the precarious working environment, 00:40:43.630 --> 00:40:46.969 et cetera, et cetera. So there are no simple 00:40:46.969 --> 00:40:50.550 answers to that, but I think I've got more questions 00:40:50.550 --> 00:40:54.710 than answers here. Sorry, Sami. Well, that does 00:40:54.710 --> 00:40:57.250 actually lead rather perfectly into my final 00:40:57.250 --> 00:40:59.530 question, which I was going to come to you first, 00:40:59.630 --> 00:41:02.690 Shupeng, is what policy changes would you recommend 00:41:02.690 --> 00:41:05.989 to foster more genuine inclusion and success 00:41:05.989 --> 00:41:09.010 for Chinese students in Australian higher education? 00:41:09.130 --> 00:41:12.010 Is there any specific things that you can see 00:41:12.010 --> 00:41:15.150 as solutions that already could be put in place 00:41:15.150 --> 00:41:18.559 right now? I think in terms of that, I would 00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:23.420 like to bring two initiatives that National Foundation 00:41:23.420 --> 00:41:26.440 for Australia -China Relations has been doing. 00:41:26.659 --> 00:41:31.559 One is they have got a new scholarship plan for 00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:35.260 engaging Chinese international students to learn 00:41:35.260 --> 00:41:40.300 more about Australian society. And that's a more 00:41:40.300 --> 00:41:43.659 recent initiative. And there is also an old one, 00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:46.409 which we have been actually... honored to get 00:41:46.409 --> 00:41:49.590 the funding to support. So that initiative is 00:41:49.590 --> 00:41:52.630 about holding the My Study and Life in Australia 00:41:52.630 --> 00:41:55.889 short video contest. So I think underpinning 00:41:55.889 --> 00:41:59.969 these two initiatives are very strong suggestions 00:41:59.969 --> 00:42:03.650 made on the part of the government saying that 00:42:03.650 --> 00:42:06.170 Chinese international students, they are welcomed. 00:42:06.730 --> 00:42:09.289 They are welcome to learn more about Australia. 00:42:09.550 --> 00:42:13.150 They are welcomed to articulate and share their 00:42:13.150 --> 00:42:17.199 experiences. thing we can do at this moment is 00:42:17.199 --> 00:42:20.420 actually to make this kind of gesture more explicit. 00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:23.760 This is not merely because that America is doing 00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:27.659 a terrible job at this time, indicating that 00:42:27.659 --> 00:42:29.900 they are not welcomed, they are politicized, 00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:33.880 etc, etc. But also because that Chinese international 00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:39.099 students can be Australia's assets as well. They 00:42:39.099 --> 00:42:42.039 do so much in terms of promoting Australian way 00:42:42.039 --> 00:42:45.300 of life, promoting Australian social and cultural 00:42:45.300 --> 00:42:49.119 events in Chinese social media. And they sustain 00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:52.920 transnational ties with Australian society and 00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:56.639 economy, even after graduating from Australia. 00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:01.639 maybe beyond their graduation, all those should 00:43:01.639 --> 00:43:06.320 be framed in a more positive light to shape our 00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:10.019 understanding. And probably it will be a good 00:43:10.019 --> 00:43:13.139 starting point if we can jump out of the stereotypes 00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:16.539 for the students being censored on subjects, 00:43:17.079 --> 00:43:21.679 being brainwashed, and even become source or 00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:24.920 means for foreign political interference, that 00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:28.179 kind of thing. Eric, same question for you then. 00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:31.360 What policy changes or broader societal measures 00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:33.719 would you recommend to foster more inclusion 00:43:33.719 --> 00:43:36.800 and success for Chinese students? I would say 00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:40.900 the first key would be participation. So I think 00:43:40.900 --> 00:43:44.420 Chinese students need to be acknowledged. You 00:43:44.420 --> 00:43:49.360 know, they put great effort, you know, to come 00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:53.199 overseas to get this education. So their presence 00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:56.440 on our campus, in our society should be. sufficiently 00:43:56.440 --> 00:43:59.079 acknowledged. They should be acknowledged as 00:43:59.079 --> 00:44:02.860 part of our broader cultural society at least. 00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:08.179 And then also in terms of initiatives or policies 00:44:08.179 --> 00:44:12.900 that can really help in them, I think it could 00:44:12.900 --> 00:44:17.539 be helpful to really include them in this process 00:44:17.539 --> 00:44:20.619 of policymaking or any kind of program designing. 00:44:21.820 --> 00:44:24.380 you know, to really listen to them and really 00:44:24.380 --> 00:44:28.239 figure out what they really want and need. And 00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:30.599 another point I want to make probably to the 00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:34.300 broader society is we need to take a more broader 00:44:34.300 --> 00:44:38.500 view about this diversity and inclusion kind 00:44:38.500 --> 00:44:42.500 of initiative in our society. We talk a lot about 00:44:42.500 --> 00:44:46.340 this initiative, but oftentimes we take this 00:44:46.340 --> 00:44:49.980 in a very kind of narrow -minded way. So, you 00:44:49.980 --> 00:44:54.699 know... We tend to focus either on one -dimensional 00:44:54.699 --> 00:44:57.599 ways of framing this term, diversity and inclusion. 00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:02.199 It could be implemented out, understood in a 00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:04.239 whole lot of different dimensions, different 00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:08.099 ways. In that case, I would say, drawn on the 00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:13.159 story told by a student, I said, I asked him, 00:45:13.239 --> 00:45:16.760 is there a moment that you really feel that you 00:45:16.760 --> 00:45:21.110 belong to Melbourne? He told me, he says, you 00:45:21.110 --> 00:45:25.750 know, when the people here don't treat me as 00:45:25.750 --> 00:45:28.849 an outsider, you know, one day he walked in the 00:45:28.849 --> 00:45:30.869 street and someone just come to him and ask for 00:45:30.869 --> 00:45:33.750 directions. And that moment he feels, you know, 00:45:33.789 --> 00:45:37.409 he belongs to that place. And also maybe some 00:45:37.409 --> 00:45:41.230 random person just sitting next to him on the 00:45:41.230 --> 00:45:44.349 bench in the park and started a conversation, 00:45:44.489 --> 00:45:46.989 a genuine conversation, you know, rather than 00:45:46.989 --> 00:45:50.250 just treating them as the other. someone that 00:45:50.250 --> 00:45:52.730 is fundamentally different from them, I think 00:45:52.730 --> 00:45:56.710 that will probably be a good way to go. Our guests 00:45:56.710 --> 00:45:59.730 have been Dr. Chio Ping Pan of Asia Institute 00:45:59.730 --> 00:46:02.690 and Dr. Eric Fu of the Youth Research Centre 00:46:02.690 --> 00:46:05.590 of the Faculty of Education, both from the University 00:46:05.590 --> 00:46:08.510 of Melbourne. Thank you both. Thank you, Sami. 00:46:08.730 --> 00:46:20.639 Thank you. Be sure to keep up with every episode 00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:23.719 of Air to Asia by following us on the Apple Podcasts 00:46:23.719 --> 00:46:26.679 app, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your 00:46:26.679 --> 00:46:29.539 podcasts. If you like the show, please rate and 00:46:29.539 --> 00:46:32.340 review it. Every positive review helps new listeners 00:46:32.340 --> 00:46:35.059 find the show. And please help us by spreading 00:46:35.059 --> 00:46:38.679 the word on your socials. This episode was recorded 00:46:38.679 --> 00:46:42.820 on the 30th of April 2025. Producers were Eric 00:46:42.820 --> 00:46:46.400 Van Bemmel and Kelvin Param of Profactual .com. 00:46:46.659 --> 00:46:49.579 Ear to Asia is licensed under Creative Commons, 00:46:49.820 --> 00:46:52.099 copyright 2025, the University of Melbourne. 00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:54.780 I'm Sami Shah. Thanks for your company.