WEBVTT 00:00:00.620 --> 00:00:03.379 The Ear to Asia podcast is made available on 00:00:03.379 --> 00:00:05.860 the Jakarta Post platform under agreement between 00:00:05.860 --> 00:00:07.980 the Jakarta Post and the University of Melbourne. 00:00:09.099 --> 00:00:16.199 Hello, I'm Sami Shah. This is Ear to Asia. In 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:18.719 China, Mandarin in general is seen as the language 00:00:18.719 --> 00:00:21.359 for social mobility and also for opportunities. 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:25.179 Overall, there's no such a forceful, let's say, 00:00:25.219 --> 00:00:28.300 imposition of Mandarin to replace other minority 00:00:28.300 --> 00:00:30.620 languages. But rather, it's more of a gradual 00:00:30.620 --> 00:00:34.179 approach in which minority languages are seen 00:00:34.179 --> 00:00:37.619 as less valuable or made less valuable. Even 00:00:37.619 --> 00:00:39.880 a language that in the Chinese context can have 00:00:39.880 --> 00:00:42.320 a couple of million speakers and be a minority 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:45.359 language in one or two generations can drastically 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:48.159 fall down the cliff when you have that sense 00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:50.200 that people don't want to pass the language on 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:52.320 to their children. These children don't get to 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:54.820 grow up learning these languages as their mother 00:00:54.820 --> 00:00:57.020 tongues because their parents have decided that 00:00:57.020 --> 00:01:00.039 that won't be a sensible investment of time for 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:05.709 them. Can ethnic minority languages coexist with 00:01:05.709 --> 00:01:09.689 Mandarin in China? Ear to Asia is the podcast 00:01:09.689 --> 00:01:12.670 from Asia Institute, the Asia research specialists 00:01:12.670 --> 00:01:18.010 at the University of Melbourne. Mandarin, or 00:01:18.010 --> 00:01:21.090 Putonghua, has long served as China's official 00:01:21.090 --> 00:01:23.769 language, yet recent developments have shown 00:01:23.769 --> 00:01:26.530 its growing influence is coming at the expense 00:01:26.530 --> 00:01:30.599 of the country's minority languages. While China's 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:33.480 constitution mandates the promotion of Putonghua, 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:37.040 it also guarantees the right to use and develop 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:40.939 minority languages. But after a legislative decision 00:01:40.939 --> 00:01:44.359 in 2020, mandatory schooling in some minority 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:47.659 languages is now regarded as unconstitutional. 00:01:48.750 --> 00:01:51.329 This tension has brought forth language policies 00:01:51.329 --> 00:01:54.530 impacting large ethnic groups like the Zhuang, 00:01:54.689 --> 00:01:57.489 who live in China's south, and whose language 00:01:57.489 --> 00:02:00.909 has been losing ground in official domains. Concerns 00:02:00.909 --> 00:02:02.969 have also arisen about the effects of language 00:02:02.969 --> 00:02:06.150 policy on linguistic diversity in regions like 00:02:06.150 --> 00:02:09.650 Tibet. Underpinning this trend are concepts like 00:02:09.650 --> 00:02:13.330 the pluralist unity model, which ostensibly seeks 00:02:13.330 --> 00:02:16.330 to balance ethnic diversity with natural cohesion. 00:02:16.889 --> 00:02:20.210 However, the growing push to cement Putonghua's 00:02:20.210 --> 00:02:23.409 dominance in education and governance marks a 00:02:23.409 --> 00:02:25.650 clear shift in China's linguistic landscape. 00:02:26.409 --> 00:02:30.270 So, given that Mandarin is indisputably the dominant 00:02:30.270 --> 00:02:33.430 language of the nation, why is there an apparent 00:02:33.430 --> 00:02:35.990 need to further strengthen its positions vis 00:02:35.990 --> 00:02:39.310 -à -vis minority languages? What are the real 00:02:39.310 --> 00:02:42.530 -world impacts of China's Mandarin -first language 00:02:42.530 --> 00:02:46.210 policies on ethnic minority communities? And 00:02:46.210 --> 00:02:48.669 what will it take for minority languages to thrive 00:02:48.669 --> 00:02:53.550 alongside Putonghua in China? Joining me to examine 00:02:53.550 --> 00:02:56.289 the impact of government policies on minority 00:02:56.289 --> 00:02:59.710 languages in China are researchers of linguistic 00:02:59.710 --> 00:03:04.229 diversity, Dr. Lajia Tu from Asia Institute and 00:03:04.229 --> 00:03:06.830 Dr. Alexandra Gray from University of Technology, 00:03:07.270 --> 00:03:10.550 Sydney. Welcome to Ear to Asia, Lajia and Alex. 00:03:11.090 --> 00:03:13.909 Thank you for having me. Such a pleasure to be 00:03:13.909 --> 00:03:17.099 here, Sami. Alex, let's start with you. Before 00:03:17.099 --> 00:03:19.520 we get to minority languages, can you please 00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:23.039 give us a quick overview of China's ethnic minorities? 00:03:23.659 --> 00:03:26.759 Of course. And I think this is a good place to 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:28.719 start because it's not necessarily something 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:31.500 that people outside of China, say here in Australia, 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:34.319 know much about at all. But if we think about 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:38.060 China just as a physical space, it's much bigger 00:03:38.060 --> 00:03:40.580 than, say, Europe. So, of course, if we start 00:03:40.580 --> 00:03:42.360 to think, we can anticipate that there might 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:44.979 be quite a lot of diversity in the histories, 00:03:45.219 --> 00:03:47.780 the origins, the cultures, the languages of different 00:03:47.780 --> 00:03:50.740 groups of people there. And indeed, that is the 00:03:50.740 --> 00:03:53.840 case. And so when the nation we now know as China 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:57.860 formed itself after a period of civil war and 00:03:57.860 --> 00:04:01.180 tension in the middle of the 20th century, the 00:04:01.180 --> 00:04:03.639 government, through its constitution and other 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:07.060 policies, set up an official recognition of not 00:04:07.060 --> 00:04:09.979 just the ethnic majority, which is called the 00:04:09.979 --> 00:04:14.500 Hanzhou or the Han group, but 55 recognised other 00:04:14.500 --> 00:04:18.339 peoples. And they are predominantly at that point 00:04:18.339 --> 00:04:20.920 in time being recognised because they have cultural 00:04:20.920 --> 00:04:23.699 and linguistic differences from what's seen as 00:04:23.699 --> 00:04:25.920 the majority or, if you like, the mainstream. 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:30.000 And so these 55 minorities in Chinese, they're 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:33.660 called 少数民族 or small number minorities, have 00:04:33.660 --> 00:04:37.740 a certain legal status. And then coming to the 00:04:37.740 --> 00:04:41.720 issue of languages, of those 55, 54 of them were 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:44.819 recognised as having an official language for 00:04:44.819 --> 00:04:48.689 their own group. So how many minority languages 00:04:48.689 --> 00:04:52.430 are currently spoken and viable in China? Look, 00:04:52.449 --> 00:04:54.889 this is a really difficult question to answer, 00:04:54.990 --> 00:04:58.089 Sami, although it's also a really sensible question. 00:04:58.149 --> 00:05:00.490 Of course, people want to know this. So if we 00:05:00.490 --> 00:05:03.509 think of those 55 minorities that I just explained, 00:05:03.569 --> 00:05:07.189 together their population is about 8 or 9 % of 00:05:07.189 --> 00:05:12.009 the national population. However, it's very hard 00:05:12.009 --> 00:05:15.019 to get data, first of all, on... who amongst 00:05:15.019 --> 00:05:18.319 those minority peoples speaks what is recognised 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:22.000 as a minority language. And then even in the 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:24.579 cases where we do have data on language being 00:05:24.579 --> 00:05:27.819 spoken, it's a further challenge to get data 00:05:27.819 --> 00:05:31.500 that properly reflects how often or when or with 00:05:31.500 --> 00:05:34.420 whom people speak those languages, how fluently, 00:05:34.699 --> 00:05:37.519 how comfortably, whether they write those languages 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:40.329 as well. And then also I think it's really important 00:05:40.329 --> 00:05:43.329 to remember that despite this very rigid state 00:05:43.329 --> 00:05:46.009 organisation of peoples into groups and languages 00:05:46.009 --> 00:05:50.730 to go with peoples, there are people from the 00:05:50.730 --> 00:05:53.350 majority who grow up speaking what we think of 00:05:53.350 --> 00:05:56.040 as minority languages because... That's the main 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:58.180 language in the village or the town where they 00:05:58.180 --> 00:06:00.759 grow up. So there's not necessarily a one -to 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.259 -one correspondence between the number of people 00:06:03.259 --> 00:06:05.540 in the minorities and the number of people speaking 00:06:05.540 --> 00:06:07.579 those languages and then the number of people 00:06:07.579 --> 00:06:10.579 speaking those languages as their sole language. 00:06:10.860 --> 00:06:12.959 So to put this in a bit of a grounded context, 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:15.699 to give an example, the language that I've done 00:06:15.699 --> 00:06:17.540 a lot of my own research on is called Zhuang. 00:06:17.980 --> 00:06:20.339 It's a language that originated in that part 00:06:20.339 --> 00:06:22.699 of South Central China that's sort of above Vietnam 00:06:22.699 --> 00:06:27.389 and near Thailand. And for that language, we 00:06:27.389 --> 00:06:30.589 have data from around the turn of this century, 00:06:30.689 --> 00:06:34.009 so data from around the year 2000, and that's 00:06:34.009 --> 00:06:35.990 the most recent I can find reflecting this sort 00:06:35.990 --> 00:06:41.149 of information, saying that about 53 % of the 00:06:41.149 --> 00:06:44.129 people who were technically in the Zhuang population 00:06:44.129 --> 00:06:47.370 in what's called the Guangxi Zhuangzi Autonomous 00:06:47.370 --> 00:06:50.529 Region were speaking Putonghua, so that is the 00:06:50.529 --> 00:06:55.829 national Mandarin language. But only 20 % of 00:06:55.829 --> 00:06:58.389 that same group, so only 20 % of that Zhuang 00:06:58.389 --> 00:07:01.430 ethnic minority in that area at about the same 00:07:01.430 --> 00:07:04.449 time were monolingual, okay? So the majority 00:07:04.449 --> 00:07:07.110 of people, at least in this example of the Zhuang, 00:07:07.250 --> 00:07:10.269 are multilingual, bilingual, maybe trilingual, 00:07:10.389 --> 00:07:13.790 even quadrilingual. So people are speaking, and 00:07:13.790 --> 00:07:16.509 this is not just in South China, people are speaking 00:07:16.509 --> 00:07:20.269 both ethnic minority languages and the national 00:07:20.269 --> 00:07:22.759 language, which... We call it Mandarin, but it's 00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:25.740 called Putonghua. And then also a whole range 00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:27.660 of other Mandarin dialects that don't have that 00:07:27.660 --> 00:07:30.379 official status as the national official version 00:07:30.379 --> 00:07:32.899 of Mandarin. So in fact, there's enormous linguistic 00:07:32.899 --> 00:07:35.819 diversity going on. And that means both at a 00:07:35.819 --> 00:07:39.079 societal level and an individual level, there's 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:42.100 a dynamic, there's, if you like, a sort of allocation 00:07:42.100 --> 00:07:44.519 of which language, where and how much and at 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:48.759 what point in everyone's lives. Last year, historically, 00:07:49.180 --> 00:07:51.519 how has the Chinese Communist Party, the CCP, 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:55.819 viewed ethnic minorities? Thank you for the question. 00:07:55.879 --> 00:07:59.139 Yes, historically, the Communist Party of China 00:07:59.139 --> 00:08:01.899 has seen these minority groups, as Alex said, 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:05.160 55 ethnic minority groups, along with the Han 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:08.750 majority group. as a big part of what makes China's 00:08:08.750 --> 00:08:12.430 culture so rich and diverse. So they call China 00:08:12.430 --> 00:08:16.310 as a multi -ethnic country. And it has come up 00:08:16.310 --> 00:08:19.050 with different ways to support these minority 00:08:19.050 --> 00:08:23.189 groups in schools and in the media. For example, 00:08:23.250 --> 00:08:25.689 in certain ethnic minority groups, there are 00:08:25.689 --> 00:08:28.810 bilingual schools, which incorporates ethnic 00:08:28.810 --> 00:08:31.290 minority language along with the Mandarin in 00:08:31.290 --> 00:08:34.669 their instruction in the classrooms. And also 00:08:34.669 --> 00:08:37.899 there are media such as radio broadcasts and 00:08:37.899 --> 00:08:41.059 televisions that has bilingual programs. Oh, 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:43.440 well, there are minority language programs. Of 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.340 course, there are membranes, but there are televisions 00:08:46.340 --> 00:08:49.460 and radio stations that are dedicated to minority 00:08:49.460 --> 00:08:55.659 languages that usually have programs that focus 00:08:55.659 --> 00:08:58.519 on a minority culture and the language and their 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:02.159 literature and all aspects of their lives. And 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:07.379 also, of course, the state news. And so Historically, 00:09:07.539 --> 00:09:11.340 I would say China has seen this as a very important 00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:15.000 part of their family. They call this the family 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:19.340 of a Chinese nation, in which Chinese call it 00:09:19.340 --> 00:09:22.299 Zhonghua Minzu, right? Zhonghua Minzu is a big 00:09:22.299 --> 00:09:28.279 umbrella term that includes all these 56 ethnic 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:31.649 groups, including... Han Chinese. And as Alex 00:09:31.649 --> 00:09:34.789 said, that Han Chinese actually makes up about 00:09:34.789 --> 00:09:38.429 92 % of the population in the nation. So that's 00:09:38.429 --> 00:09:41.929 a super majority. And all the other 55 ethnic 00:09:41.929 --> 00:09:47.409 groups make up only about 8 % to 9%. That's the 00:09:47.409 --> 00:09:51.789 latest statistics that we can get. So yeah, so 00:09:51.789 --> 00:09:56.070 that's a very quick overview of historical approach 00:09:56.070 --> 00:10:00.360 to ethnic diversity in China. So does that change 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:04.240 from autonomous regions versus hand -majority 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:07.100 provinces, the approaches that the CCP might 00:10:07.100 --> 00:10:11.860 have towards the transmission and use of minority 00:10:11.860 --> 00:10:15.720 languages? Yes, Sami. So in autonomous regions, 00:10:15.899 --> 00:10:18.179 so in China, there are several levels of autonomous 00:10:18.179 --> 00:10:20.379 regions. So first you have autonomous region 00:10:20.379 --> 00:10:24.460 like TAR, Tibet Autonomous Region, and Ningxia 00:10:24.460 --> 00:10:27.980 Hui Autonomous Region, and Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous 00:10:27.980 --> 00:10:30.840 Region. So there are also autonomous counties 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:35.440 that are dedicated to different ethnic groups. 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:37.899 So in autonomous regions such as in the Tibet 00:10:37.899 --> 00:10:41.039 Autonomous Region or Inner Mongolia or Xinjiang 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:44.370 or Guangxi or Ningxia. China has established 00:10:44.370 --> 00:10:46.889 these frameworks to allow these communities to 00:10:46.889 --> 00:10:50.769 preserve their cultural identities. So they designated 00:10:50.769 --> 00:10:53.029 these regions for specific ethnic groups like, 00:10:53.110 --> 00:10:55.909 as I said, Tibetans in the Tibet Autonomous Region 00:10:55.909 --> 00:10:59.330 or Mongolians in Inner Mongolia to ensure their 00:10:59.330 --> 00:11:02.070 traditions, languages, customs remain prominent. 00:11:02.350 --> 00:11:05.830 And it reflects the government's commitment to 00:11:05.830 --> 00:11:08.230 keep the distinct contributions of these groups 00:11:08.230 --> 00:11:11.149 within the broader context of China. So what 00:11:11.149 --> 00:11:13.309 this means is that, for instance, In Mongolia, 00:11:13.350 --> 00:11:19.649 when they attend the school, they usually go 00:11:19.649 --> 00:11:21.870 to bilingual schools. And in these bilingual 00:11:21.870 --> 00:11:26.710 schools, there are courses that are... that include 00:11:26.710 --> 00:11:29.809 Mandarin and Mongolian, either as a medium of 00:11:29.809 --> 00:11:32.590 instruction or as a language subject. So this 00:11:32.590 --> 00:11:36.470 is the crux of the issue that you pointed out 00:11:36.470 --> 00:11:38.389 in the introduction that we can dive into later. 00:11:38.690 --> 00:11:42.309 So this kid theoretically can learn Mongolian 00:11:42.309 --> 00:11:45.450 fluently as a language subject or as a medium 00:11:45.450 --> 00:11:48.730 of instruction in a classroom, and also can celebrate 00:11:48.730 --> 00:11:51.470 their cultural practices and their traditions, 00:11:51.649 --> 00:11:55.029 and also pick up Mandarin along the way. So that's 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:57.240 That's what it's like in autonomous regions. 00:11:57.659 --> 00:12:01.159 But in the high majority provinces, usually there 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:05.720 are very few, if any, bilingual schools. But 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:08.500 in China, we can also differentiate the bilingual 00:12:08.500 --> 00:12:10.980 schools from the bilingual schools that include 00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:13.159 Mandarin and thick minority language, and also 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:15.399 international schools, because these are also 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:18.120 called, the latter are also called the bilingual 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:19.980 schools. For example, there are international 00:12:19.980 --> 00:12:23.070 schools that have... Mandarin along with English 00:12:23.070 --> 00:12:26.850 or Mandarin with Japanese and others, yes. So 00:12:26.850 --> 00:12:29.450 in this high majority provinces, there are ethnic 00:12:29.450 --> 00:12:32.710 minority people living there like Tibetans, Mongolians, 00:12:32.730 --> 00:12:35.629 Uyghurs, but they usually lack this access to 00:12:35.629 --> 00:12:38.350 education in their mother tongue. So they can 00:12:38.350 --> 00:12:40.669 only learn this through their household, through 00:12:40.669 --> 00:12:44.070 their parents and the peers. So that's a quick 00:12:44.070 --> 00:12:47.110 overview of this difference between autonomous 00:12:47.110 --> 00:12:50.570 region and the high majority provinces. Alex, 00:12:50.629 --> 00:12:52.789 you had something to add? Yes, Sammy, I did. 00:12:52.950 --> 00:12:55.169 Look, I wanted to clarify two things, both the 00:12:55.169 --> 00:12:57.350 status of bilingual schooling in those autonomous 00:12:57.350 --> 00:13:00.590 regions and their autonomy itself. These are 00:13:00.590 --> 00:13:02.909 things I've looked at in some of my own research 00:13:02.909 --> 00:13:05.789 because I take both a linguistic and a legal 00:13:05.789 --> 00:13:08.710 approach to my research on Chinese minority languages. 00:13:09.090 --> 00:13:11.389 But the autonomous regions, the five of them 00:13:11.389 --> 00:13:15.500 that Lajia explained... They haven't had a full 00:13:15.500 --> 00:13:17.559 devolution of power from the central government. 00:13:17.740 --> 00:13:21.519 There is a mechanism set up to do that, but it's 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:23.820 never been completely executed. It's been blocked 00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:27.220 continually at the highest level for some 20, 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:31.379 30 years. And so while we call these autonomous 00:13:31.379 --> 00:13:34.519 regions because that's their official name, they 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:36.940 don't actually necessarily have more legal power 00:13:36.940 --> 00:13:40.559 than other parts of China to serve their minority 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:43.899 populations. But more than that, demographically, 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:47.399 Guangxi, again, to take an example, so this is 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:51.360 in south -central China, one -third of the population 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:53.580 of that autonomous region are officially part 00:13:53.580 --> 00:13:56.559 of the Zhuang minority. It's still an area where 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:59.659 the Han majority are the majority of people living 00:13:59.659 --> 00:14:03.259 in that place, and increasingly it's also a place 00:14:03.259 --> 00:14:05.820 that is urbanised, and in urban places you have 00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:09.899 greater dispersal of the minority populations. 00:14:10.940 --> 00:14:13.299 And so while Lajia is correct in saying that 00:14:13.299 --> 00:14:15.899 there's bilingual schooling available across 00:14:15.899 --> 00:14:19.259 China, it varies very drastically in the form 00:14:19.259 --> 00:14:21.860 it takes and the access people have. So in the 00:14:21.860 --> 00:14:23.980 Inner Mongolian example that he gives, yes, Inner 00:14:23.980 --> 00:14:29.120 Mongolia has long been touted as a model minority 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:31.899 and in particular because they've had very successful 00:14:31.899 --> 00:14:35.120 bilingual education and we'll come to how that 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:38.220 has changed. sadly, in my view, in the last few 00:14:38.220 --> 00:14:41.220 years. But in the south of China, bilingual schooling 00:14:41.220 --> 00:14:44.779 in Guangxi has been, in fact, quite inaccessible. 00:14:44.980 --> 00:14:47.960 When I did my research in the 2010s, it was very 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:50.940 difficult to get exact data, but crunching together 00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:53.879 different sources that I could find, I calculated 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:57.580 that about 1 % of the school -aged population 00:14:57.580 --> 00:14:59.899 of the Zhuang minority had access to bilingual 00:14:59.899 --> 00:15:02.759 schooling. And even then, that's bilingual schooling 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:05.210 that doesn't go all the way through primary and 00:15:05.210 --> 00:15:07.049 secondary school. It's bilingual schooling that 00:15:07.049 --> 00:15:09.490 predominantly is bilingual for a couple of years 00:15:09.490 --> 00:15:13.289 to help people transition into full Mandarin 00:15:13.289 --> 00:15:19.509 schooling. And so actually, while there is a 00:15:19.509 --> 00:15:22.129 framework to support minority peoples and their 00:15:22.129 --> 00:15:25.429 self -governance of a sort, and there is a framework 00:15:25.429 --> 00:15:27.970 and an allowance in the national education law 00:15:27.970 --> 00:15:30.870 for bilingual education, that doesn't necessarily 00:15:30.870 --> 00:15:34.100 mean that it plays out in a really robust and 00:15:34.100 --> 00:15:37.159 full and accessible way for everyone. Let's talk 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:40.279 about that framework then a little bit. You mentioned, 00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:42.259 of course, that your research focuses on the 00:15:42.259 --> 00:15:44.340 legal side of things as well as the linguistic. 00:15:44.659 --> 00:15:48.259 So what then has been the constitutional status 00:15:48.259 --> 00:15:54.899 of both Mandarin and minority languages in China 00:15:54.899 --> 00:16:00.559 since 1949? In 1949, in a preliminary kind of 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.080 constitution and then in the actual constitution 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:06.480 as it has existed and been updated since, there 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.940 has always been a provision that minority peoples 00:16:09.940 --> 00:16:12.779 have the freedom, not the right, the freedom, 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:17.480 to use and develop their own languages. And then 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:20.519 there has, at the same time... also been an article 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:23.419 of the Constitution saying, amongst other things 00:16:23.419 --> 00:16:25.500 to do with the national language, that the state 00:16:25.500 --> 00:16:29.500 promotes the nationwide use of Putonghua. And 00:16:29.500 --> 00:16:31.940 then since 2000, there's also been a really important 00:16:31.940 --> 00:16:34.460 piece of national legislation. So it's not the 00:16:34.460 --> 00:16:37.879 Constitution, but it's a nationwide, very important 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:41.000 piece of legislation about what's called the 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:44.120 common spoken and written Chinese language. And 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:47.429 in Article 4 of that, there is a right so not 00:16:47.429 --> 00:16:51.190 a freedom a right to learn and use the standard 00:16:51.190 --> 00:16:54.750 language so we have at the high level a really 00:16:54.750 --> 00:16:59.549 strong not just status for standardized mandarin 00:16:59.549 --> 00:17:02.909 as the national language but a right to access 00:17:02.909 --> 00:17:05.569 it a right to use it and an obligation on the 00:17:05.569 --> 00:17:09.630 state to promulgate it and that stands alongside 00:17:09.630 --> 00:17:15.450 uneasily this legally weaker and in practice 00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:20.730 not always fully fleshed out, freedom to use 00:17:20.730 --> 00:17:24.170 and develop minority languages. Can you just 00:17:24.170 --> 00:17:26.750 kind of expand on that a little bit? What's the 00:17:26.750 --> 00:17:28.509 difference there between the right versus the 00:17:28.509 --> 00:17:32.809 freedom? Yeah. How does that pan out? Look, in 00:17:32.809 --> 00:17:35.970 general terms, a right is something that can 00:17:35.970 --> 00:17:40.829 be... um advocated for or used you know to sort 00:17:40.829 --> 00:17:44.029 of prompt expectations of the state more than 00:17:44.029 --> 00:17:48.710 a freedom um the way it plays out particularly 00:17:48.710 --> 00:17:52.670 is the way say in the the decision i've recently 00:17:52.670 --> 00:17:54.930 written about and the article that underpins 00:17:54.930 --> 00:17:59.490 i think my invitation to this podcast a really 00:17:59.490 --> 00:18:02.130 high level important legal body called the um 00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:10.119 Legislative Affairs Commission, undertook a review 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:12.940 on the constitutionality of certain regulations 00:18:12.940 --> 00:18:16.160 that were regulations setting up bilingual schooling 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.059 in parts of China. And this was in 2020, right? 00:18:19.380 --> 00:18:21.980 So this review was in 2020 and then it came out 00:18:21.980 --> 00:18:26.180 in a report in early 2021. And in that report, 00:18:26.380 --> 00:18:28.599 they determined that, in fact, these bilingual 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:31.700 schooling regulations offended the constitutional... 00:18:32.829 --> 00:18:35.349 necessity for the state to promote the nationwide 00:18:35.349 --> 00:18:39.549 use of Putonghua. So they're using that constitutional 00:18:39.549 --> 00:18:42.569 protection of the national language to invalidate 00:18:42.569 --> 00:18:45.109 bilingual schooling regulations, even though 00:18:45.109 --> 00:18:47.569 bilingual schooling regulations, these particular 00:18:47.569 --> 00:18:50.170 ones had been in existence already uncontroversially 00:18:50.170 --> 00:18:52.970 for some years prior, and even though the national 00:18:52.970 --> 00:18:55.569 education law specifically allows for bilingual 00:18:55.569 --> 00:18:59.809 schooling. And so that's an example of how that 00:18:59.809 --> 00:19:02.839 legal tension or that difference between, if 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:04.539 you like, the right and the freedom plays out. 00:19:04.619 --> 00:19:06.700 The Legislative Affairs Commission doesn't have 00:19:06.700 --> 00:19:11.460 to provide reasons, and it didn't, but the discussion 00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:13.700 of it by commentators, legal scholars inside 00:19:13.700 --> 00:19:17.140 and outside China links it to this sense that... 00:19:17.470 --> 00:19:20.329 there is more strength or there is more obligation 00:19:20.329 --> 00:19:22.809 in that legal protection of Putonghua and what 00:19:22.809 --> 00:19:26.869 it demands compared to the more flexible freedom 00:19:26.869 --> 00:19:29.130 to use and develop minority languages, which 00:19:29.130 --> 00:19:31.630 is localized to these particular territories 00:19:31.630 --> 00:19:36.109 and also always conditional upon whether conditions 00:19:36.109 --> 00:19:39.430 exist, as the provisos in the law say. So those 00:19:39.430 --> 00:19:41.349 might be economic conditions, those might be 00:19:41.349 --> 00:19:44.559 demographic conditions that mean that... local 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.640 governments can say, well, conditions no longer 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:49.380 exist. So we don't really need to put this freedom 00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:52.920 to develop the language into any concrete form. 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:57.019 So is it fair then to say that minority languages 00:19:57.019 --> 00:19:59.579 are being preserved, but that preservation is 00:19:59.579 --> 00:20:02.599 symbolic, but they are also simultaneously being 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:06.319 marginalized on a functional level? Totally. 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:08.259 I think that's a very good way of saying it. 00:20:08.339 --> 00:20:10.180 And what I would add to that is that while they're 00:20:10.180 --> 00:20:13.319 being preserved and not... without some expense 00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:16.380 i mean there is an enormous amount of resources 00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:19.859 going into documentation and archival of linguistic 00:20:19.859 --> 00:20:22.839 diversity in china at the moment both for mandarin 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.640 dialects and official minority languages and 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:29.279 that of course is done with a great deal of effort 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:32.480 by the people involved that is primarily done 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:35.950 to make a sort of record, a relic, so people 00:20:35.950 --> 00:20:38.789 don't forget what the linguistic diversity was, 00:20:38.829 --> 00:20:41.529 what the languages were. That's quite different 00:20:41.529 --> 00:20:43.750 from setting up the conditions of life where 00:20:43.750 --> 00:20:47.509 people can and want to, are compelled to, or 00:20:47.509 --> 00:20:51.170 are encouraged to use multiple languages and 00:20:51.170 --> 00:20:53.750 to pass them on to their children. So in my work, 00:20:53.750 --> 00:20:56.210 I talk about this as a kind of nationalisation 00:20:56.210 --> 00:21:00.119 of linguistic heritage. it becomes documented 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:02.680 it becomes archived it becomes used in museums 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:06.440 and it's not necessarily accessible for minority 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:09.160 peoples going forward both in a functional sense 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:11.619 maybe people no longer learn to speak or read 00:21:11.619 --> 00:21:13.319 that language so what are they going to do with 00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:16.700 that archive but also it's not necessarily accessible 00:21:16.700 --> 00:21:20.740 as a social resource for them to identify with 00:21:20.740 --> 00:21:23.420 it no longer is as closely connected to them 00:21:23.420 --> 00:21:26.859 and their own people But it is, by contrast, 00:21:27.099 --> 00:21:30.200 then a resource that others like local governments 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:32.819 can use for things like place branding. So it's 00:21:32.819 --> 00:21:36.700 really shifting, if you like, the power, the 00:21:36.700 --> 00:21:40.700 control, the embodiment of these linguistic resources. 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:44.859 Alex, as language policy goes, then China also 00:21:44.859 --> 00:21:47.380 implemented the Yubao or linguistic treasures 00:21:47.380 --> 00:21:50.099 policy in 2015. What is that and how does that 00:21:50.099 --> 00:21:54.329 fit with the 2020 review recommendations? Yeah, 00:21:54.390 --> 00:21:56.269 thanks for that question, Sammy. So in fact, 00:21:56.289 --> 00:21:58.650 what I was talking about just now, this mass 00:21:58.650 --> 00:22:02.250 effort to document and archive and preserve languages 00:22:02.250 --> 00:22:05.210 in China, that is the Yubao policy from 2015, 00:22:05.549 --> 00:22:08.150 language protection policy. It plays out differently 00:22:08.150 --> 00:22:10.769 for some languages, not for minority languages, 00:22:10.970 --> 00:22:14.309 at least as far as my research has found. So 00:22:14.309 --> 00:22:17.309 some languages, particularly strategically useful 00:22:17.309 --> 00:22:20.029 foreign languages, under this policy are also 00:22:20.029 --> 00:22:22.970 getting protection in the form of enormous organisation. 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:26.619 organisation of, say, higher education resources 00:22:26.619 --> 00:22:29.279 to make sure more people speak those languages 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:33.059 for the benefit of international trade and so 00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:35.440 forth. So that's also part of UBAL, but that 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:39.460 kind of economic value or utility is not seen 00:22:39.460 --> 00:22:42.920 as worth preserving for minority languages, even 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:47.180 though some minority languages at least are spoken 00:22:47.180 --> 00:22:50.519 across borders, are already used in cross -border 00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:54.460 trade. around all the fringes of China and related 00:22:54.460 --> 00:22:58.019 to the languages overseas nearby. And so their 00:22:58.019 --> 00:22:59.680 speakers have a head start in learning those 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:02.119 other foreign languages too. So it's not that 00:23:02.119 --> 00:23:04.700 there is in reality no possible economic value 00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:07.759 for these languages, but the way the Yubao policy 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:10.420 plays out is quite different from the minority 00:23:10.420 --> 00:23:13.440 languages and their sort of documentation and 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.440 strategically useful foreign languages and their 00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:19.970 investment. There's also a slightly more recent 00:23:19.970 --> 00:23:22.170 policy called the National Language Capacity 00:23:22.170 --> 00:23:27.690 Approach that sits alongside UBAL. And that really 00:23:27.690 --> 00:23:32.069 supports further the sense that any implementation 00:23:32.069 --> 00:23:35.289 of language rights or language policy has to 00:23:35.289 --> 00:23:38.150 be geared towards economic development and how 00:23:38.150 --> 00:23:41.470 those languages play into the capacity of the 00:23:41.470 --> 00:23:45.390 nation. A third policy sitting alongside this 00:23:45.390 --> 00:23:48.349 all, Sammy, so it's a slightly complicated policy 00:23:48.349 --> 00:23:51.529 landscape. A third policy sitting alongside this 00:23:51.529 --> 00:23:54.589 is what we translate into English as subjectivity 00:23:54.589 --> 00:24:00.170 and diversity. It's a slightly opaque name, but 00:24:00.170 --> 00:24:03.750 it is a policy that is specifically about how 00:24:03.750 --> 00:24:06.549 diversity and linguistic diversity sits alongside 00:24:06.549 --> 00:24:13.920 the core. essential subject of the nation who 00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:17.359 is seen to be a Mandarin speaking subject. And 00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:20.480 that policy is explicitly hierarchical in how 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:23.900 Putonghua, so national standard Mandarin, should 00:24:23.900 --> 00:24:27.039 fit alongside minority languages. So it's an 00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:31.029 explicitly hierarchical. So in the past, the 00:24:31.029 --> 00:24:33.269 kinds of things that Lajia and I have been talking 00:24:33.269 --> 00:24:36.150 about have always had a sort of inherent hierarchy 00:24:36.150 --> 00:24:38.829 between the languages. But this is a new policy 00:24:38.829 --> 00:24:41.490 that makes that hierarchy and that intention 00:24:41.490 --> 00:24:44.950 to continue to maintain a hierarchy between the 00:24:44.950 --> 00:24:49.210 languages really explicit. Lajia, it seems that 00:24:49.210 --> 00:24:51.970 China's language policy then comes down to... 00:24:52.410 --> 00:24:55.789 The pluralist unity tenet. Can you just explain 00:24:55.789 --> 00:24:58.470 what that is and why is it so important to the 00:24:58.470 --> 00:25:03.220 CCP? Yes. So China's ethnic policy in general 00:25:03.220 --> 00:25:06.420 is guided by a principle known as the pluralist 00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:10.359 unity, which was proposed by Chinese sociologist 00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:16.059 and anthropologist Fei Xiaotong in early 1980s. 00:25:16.099 --> 00:25:20.980 And it started as an academic term in his research 00:25:20.980 --> 00:25:24.079 about ethnic minority areas in China. But since 00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:27.539 it serves as this foundational concept in managing 00:25:27.539 --> 00:25:30.720 the country's linguistic and cultural diversity 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:34.720 among ethnic groups. So the pluralist aspect 00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:37.259 of this principle refers to this acknowledgement 00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:41.220 and all. appreciation of these diverse languages 00:25:41.220 --> 00:25:44.079 and cultures that are present in China among 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:47.940 the ethnic minority populations, such as Tibetans 00:25:47.940 --> 00:25:51.059 in the western parts of China and Mongolians 00:25:51.059 --> 00:25:53.500 in the northern parts and Zhuang in the southern 00:25:53.500 --> 00:25:57.380 regions. So it emphasizes the importance of these 00:25:57.380 --> 00:26:00.700 distinct linguistic traditions as valuable components 00:26:00.700 --> 00:26:06.019 of China as a nation. It's also part of the Chinese 00:26:06.019 --> 00:26:10.960 nation. And conversely, the unity component focuses 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:14.259 on how to foster a cohesive national identity 00:26:14.259 --> 00:26:18.200 that binds these diverse groups together and 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:21.359 ensure that all communities integrate into this 00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:26.500 broader family of Chinese nation. So as Alex 00:26:26.500 --> 00:26:30.960 has mentioned that this is not... let's say pluralist 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.680 and unity it's not a equal let's say equally 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:38.789 weighted rather there's an emphasis on the unity 00:26:38.789 --> 00:26:42.210 part of this pluralist unity tenet or this approach. 00:26:42.549 --> 00:26:46.549 So for example, in schools in the Tibetan areas 00:26:46.549 --> 00:26:50.009 or in other parts of China, Mandarin is often 00:26:50.009 --> 00:26:53.069 prioritized over other, I think, minority languages. 00:26:53.470 --> 00:26:56.210 And this also raises this question of how these 00:26:56.210 --> 00:26:58.849 minority languages are used and supported by 00:26:58.849 --> 00:27:03.829 the government. So to begin with, China has largely 00:27:04.579 --> 00:27:08.240 officially recognized one language for each ethnic 00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:10.839 minority groups. But that's very different from 00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:13.640 how linguists and linguistic anthropologists 00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:18.259 and language researchers see this. So, for example, 00:27:18.339 --> 00:27:22.000 in Tibet, usually we see that we think that Tibetans 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:24.400 speak Tibetan, of course, that's their mother 00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:28.019 tongue, their native language. But some scholars, 00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:30.539 such as Gerald Raj from La Trobe University, 00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.470 has studied this linguistic diversity with Tibetan, 00:27:34.490 --> 00:27:38.710 and he and his co -authors have identified more 00:27:38.710 --> 00:27:40.910 languages, for example, like Mani Kaja, which 00:27:40.910 --> 00:27:45.309 he specializes in. And so for him, Tibetan language 00:27:45.309 --> 00:27:48.529 is also a dominant language within these minority 00:27:48.529 --> 00:27:52.650 areas. For example, it marginalizes other minority 00:27:52.650 --> 00:27:56.170 languages within this minority community. And 00:27:56.170 --> 00:27:59.390 in schools, in the public schools in China, all 00:27:59.390 --> 00:28:02.359 the schools are public. ethnic minority areas, 00:28:02.539 --> 00:28:05.579 they only provide this bilingual education in 00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:09.220 Mandarin and the officially designated ethnic 00:28:09.220 --> 00:28:11.180 minority language. So for example, in Tibetan 00:28:11.180 --> 00:28:13.759 bilingual schools, it's usually Mandarin along 00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:16.859 with Tibetan, but there are no instruction in 00:28:16.859 --> 00:28:19.920 other, let's say, minority languages within Tibet. 00:28:20.660 --> 00:28:26.319 And so that means that when a kid goes to school 00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:29.279 and learns these languages, usually it's the 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:31.859 national language along with the the more let's 00:28:31.859 --> 00:28:34.799 say dominant or language that represents the 00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:37.539 ethnic group as a whole but not really not necessarily 00:28:37.539 --> 00:28:40.460 the language that speak at home and within tibet 00:28:40.460 --> 00:28:42.880 there are other languages and varieties varieties 00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:46.640 are languages that are sometimes called as dialects 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:49.420 but strictly speaking they can be linguistically 00:28:49.420 --> 00:28:54.460 different um however i also have to emphasize 00:28:54.460 --> 00:28:58.470 that the The status of these language use or 00:28:58.470 --> 00:29:01.309 how widely they are used in a social context 00:29:01.309 --> 00:29:06.049 in education varies a lot across China. So for 00:29:06.049 --> 00:29:10.309 example, in a drawn communities as Alex said 00:29:10.309 --> 00:29:13.150 that some of these languages needs really they 00:29:13.150 --> 00:29:15.950 are in in the state of endangerment and they 00:29:15.950 --> 00:29:19.250 need this documentation and protections to to 00:29:19.250 --> 00:29:22.009 really keep them alive. But in a Tibetan areas, 00:29:22.089 --> 00:29:24.950 I would say the The situation is much better, 00:29:25.109 --> 00:29:27.490 although it could be better, of course. There 00:29:27.490 --> 00:29:30.750 are rooms for improvement all the time, but language 00:29:30.750 --> 00:29:34.230 is widely spoken. And it's just my observation 00:29:34.230 --> 00:29:36.910 that in recent years, with the emergence of these 00:29:36.910 --> 00:29:41.190 live streaming apps, such as in Tibetan areas, 00:29:41.289 --> 00:29:44.049 an app is particularly popular. That's called 00:29:44.049 --> 00:29:49.569 Kuaishou. It's very similar to TikTok, and also 00:29:49.569 --> 00:29:51.690 the Chinese version of TikTok, Douyin, is also 00:29:51.690 --> 00:29:53.970 popular in some parts of Tibet, but mostly it's 00:29:53.970 --> 00:29:57.109 a kuaishou. And on kuaishou, as a frequent user 00:29:57.109 --> 00:30:00.509 of myself, there are many Tibetans who sell stuff, 00:30:00.769 --> 00:30:06.000 they perform. arts and music, and they also speak 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:09.660 in Tibetan. And that has actually generated more 00:30:09.660 --> 00:30:15.180 enthusiasm among the Tibetans who are very addicted 00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:18.319 to these social media platforms. So I would say 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:22.440 that in the past, you learned Tibetan at the 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.099 household, in your communities, and then at the 00:30:25.099 --> 00:30:28.019 schools. But now we also have this virtual platform 00:30:28.019 --> 00:30:31.559 which provides them with this space. But that's 00:30:31.559 --> 00:30:35.740 not That might not be the case in other areas, 00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.900 such as in a drawn and other, let's say, communities. 00:30:40.220 --> 00:30:42.839 But in Tibet, yes. So that's the case. And so 00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:46.359 go back to your question. So this pluralist unity 00:30:46.359 --> 00:30:52.119 is seen as very crucial. And to outsiders, it 00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:55.019 sounds that China... does appreciate diversity 00:30:55.019 --> 00:30:58.559 and this like the pluralism among its ethnic 00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:01.319 groups in terms of language culture and traditions 00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:04.180 but there is a huge emphasis on this unity and 00:31:04.180 --> 00:31:06.940 some scholars might argue that there's actually 00:31:06.940 --> 00:31:10.119 a directional approach that is from a pluralism 00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:13.200 to the one body of unity and the purpose is really 00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:16.779 to uh to integrate all ethnic groups into the 00:31:16.779 --> 00:31:22.460 big family of uh chinese nation Yeah, that directionality, 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:24.640 Ladja, or that sort of assimilationist tendency 00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:27.099 really comes to the fore at different periods 00:31:27.099 --> 00:31:30.180 of history and then fades away again. And I mean, 00:31:30.220 --> 00:31:33.539 most recently, say for the last 15 or so years, 00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:35.920 scholars in this space have particularly noticed 00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:39.200 that that focus on unity, particularly when it 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:43.500 comes to linguistic issues, has been to see multilingualism 00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:46.190 or the use of... languages other than the national 00:31:46.190 --> 00:31:49.470 standard as a security threat almost, as a sort 00:31:49.470 --> 00:31:53.049 of a will to separatism, which is pretty extreme 00:31:53.049 --> 00:31:55.309 and a little, maybe we could say hypochondriac 00:31:55.309 --> 00:31:57.710 if you want to take that metaphor. And that's 00:31:57.710 --> 00:32:00.529 not the view of all local governments all across 00:32:00.529 --> 00:32:03.569 China, but definitely there is that increasing 00:32:03.569 --> 00:32:05.930 tendency. I've called this in my own work, this 00:32:05.930 --> 00:32:11.809 mistaken conflation of homogeneity with unity. 00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:15.779 would also be fun at this point, or interesting, 00:32:15.980 --> 00:32:18.839 just to remind listeners that China's not totally 00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:21.440 alone in this. A lot of these aspects of language 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:25.619 policy, these problems, these dynamics, you know, 00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:28.000 they resonate in other parts of the world too. 00:32:28.259 --> 00:32:31.099 This aspiration to monolingualism is, you know, 00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:33.359 something we encounter in Australia and something 00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:35.240 people are talking about right now in the US. 00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:39.720 But also just this pluralistic unity, this concept, 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:44.839 or in Chinese it's 多言一体. That's almost exactly 00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:48.980 the motto of the European Union as well. So this 00:32:48.980 --> 00:32:54.079 sense of an identity as a national or sort of 00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:57.980 a group identity as a diverse body, that's not 00:32:57.980 --> 00:33:01.339 new in China or that's not unique to China. And 00:33:01.339 --> 00:33:03.579 then the ongoing dynamism or the ongoing tension 00:33:03.579 --> 00:33:07.240 that it creates to be both a unity and diverse, 00:33:07.539 --> 00:33:27.559 that also is not unique to China. It's free to 00:33:27.559 --> 00:33:30.380 read and it's open access at melbourneasiareview 00:33:30.380 --> 00:33:34.390 .edu .au. You'll find articles by some of our 00:33:34.390 --> 00:33:36.950 regular Air to Asia guests and by many others. 00:33:37.190 --> 00:33:39.829 Plus, you can catch recent episodes of Air to 00:33:39.829 --> 00:33:42.609 Asia at the Melbourne Asia Review website, which 00:33:42.609 --> 00:33:45.589 again you can find at melbourneasiareview .edu 00:33:45.589 --> 00:33:49.670 .au. I'm Sami Shah and I'm joined by researchers 00:33:49.670 --> 00:33:52.829 of language diversity, Dr. Alexandra Gray of 00:33:52.829 --> 00:33:57.539 UTS and Dr. Lajia Tu of Asia Institute. Alex, 00:33:57.619 --> 00:33:59.940 we've been talking so much about Mandarin over 00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:03.960 the minority languages and how much it has been 00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:06.700 sold or justified to the public. How is that 00:34:06.700 --> 00:34:09.860 done? How is the public, particularly those who 00:34:09.860 --> 00:34:12.719 practice minority languages themselves, being 00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:18.099 convinced of the value of Mandarin? The main 00:34:18.099 --> 00:34:21.119 ways I would say are through creating economic 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:25.300 avenues where Mandarin is what gets you economic 00:34:25.300 --> 00:34:29.099 value. And part of that is the job market and 00:34:29.099 --> 00:34:31.380 part of that is education and higher education. 00:34:31.739 --> 00:34:34.840 And laws and policies are used in regards to 00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:40.780 both to prioritise credentials or instruction 00:34:40.780 --> 00:34:44.980 or use of Mandarin. And increasingly what we've 00:34:44.980 --> 00:34:48.199 seen is even the use of law to create exclusive 00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:52.539 domains for Mandarin. So before I was talking 00:34:52.539 --> 00:34:55.489 about the Legislative Affairs Commission. and 00:34:55.489 --> 00:34:57.190 their decision that certain bilingual schooling 00:34:57.190 --> 00:34:59.389 regulations were unconstitutional. But then a 00:34:59.389 --> 00:35:03.110 couple of years later in 2023, they also declared 00:35:03.110 --> 00:35:05.530 that certain regulations that gave preferential 00:35:05.530 --> 00:35:08.630 local government positions to people who passed 00:35:08.630 --> 00:35:11.550 their civil service exam in a minority language, 00:35:11.829 --> 00:35:14.429 they were also unconstitutional. So that's an 00:35:14.429 --> 00:35:17.949 example of closing the spaces in which you can 00:35:17.949 --> 00:35:20.050 make a living for yourself through your minority 00:35:20.050 --> 00:35:25.030 language skills. And so that In a nutshell, or 00:35:25.030 --> 00:35:27.389 in the broader context of a nation where economic 00:35:27.389 --> 00:35:32.469 development is really always the key value, that 00:35:32.469 --> 00:35:35.170 is something that is sold not just in language 00:35:35.170 --> 00:35:38.050 but across the board as sort of the mission of 00:35:38.050 --> 00:35:41.750 China and what the government does for its people. 00:35:41.849 --> 00:35:44.230 You know, in that context, it's the economic 00:35:44.230 --> 00:35:48.460 value of Mandarin that really... sells it to 00:35:48.460 --> 00:35:51.280 people or compels people or gives people really 00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:53.420 very little choice, whichever way you want to 00:35:53.420 --> 00:35:57.659 put it. Yes, I like to add that I think the word 00:35:57.659 --> 00:36:00.619 choice is really the key here. So Mandarin in 00:36:00.619 --> 00:36:02.860 general is seen as the language for social mobility 00:36:02.860 --> 00:36:06.059 and also for opportunities. So for example, in 00:36:06.059 --> 00:36:08.300 many cases, like in education and employment, 00:36:08.860 --> 00:36:12.300 there's a... although the situation varies across 00:36:12.300 --> 00:36:15.940 different regions and and areas but overall there's 00:36:15.940 --> 00:36:19.579 no such a forceful let's say imposition of a 00:36:19.579 --> 00:36:22.380 Mandarin to replace other minority languages, 00:36:22.500 --> 00:36:25.440 but rather it's more of a gradual approach in 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:29.000 which minority languages are seen as less valuable 00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:31.840 or made less valuable. So for example, let's 00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:34.699 say in my research area in a Minzu higher education, 00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:38.420 if a Tibetan student who attends a bilingual 00:36:38.420 --> 00:36:42.579 school and learns... most courses in their mother 00:36:42.579 --> 00:36:46.300 town, Tibetan, and also has a very high fluency 00:36:46.300 --> 00:36:50.039 in Mandarin. When they choose university degree 00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:54.019 programs, most of those programs are in Mandarin. 00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:57.300 So they have to really give up their minority 00:36:57.300 --> 00:37:01.360 language to apply to those degree programs that 00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:04.480 are exclusively in Mandarin. But there are also 00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:06.800 other programs, degree programs at the higher 00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:09.679 education level that provide some forms of instruction 00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:12.380 in minority languages. And those are usually 00:37:12.380 --> 00:37:15.280 in Minzu universities. But if you know this higher 00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:18.079 education landscape in China, Minzu University, 00:37:18.139 --> 00:37:20.559 it's a very hierarchical, let's say, education 00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:23.360 system in that. So there are first -tier universities, 00:37:23.659 --> 00:37:25.860 second -tier, and a third -tier. And the Minsu 00:37:25.860 --> 00:37:28.320 universities, except the Central Minsu University 00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:31.340 in China, is usually in the second tier. So that 00:37:31.340 --> 00:37:35.719 means a Tibetan student insists that they want 00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:40.280 to learn Tibetan in university classrooms, they 00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:42.139 have to go to Minsu University, and they have 00:37:42.139 --> 00:37:44.840 to pick from a very narrow, let's say, specialized 00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:48.309 areas or majors. But if they want to go to a 00:37:48.309 --> 00:37:50.389 better university or a higher tier university 00:37:50.389 --> 00:37:55.530 and to learn more, let's say, choose from a wider 00:37:55.530 --> 00:37:58.929 subject, such as science and physics and all 00:37:58.929 --> 00:38:01.329 those areas, they have to really, there's no 00:38:01.329 --> 00:38:04.010 way but to give up their mother tongue at the 00:38:04.010 --> 00:38:05.809 higher educational level. But at this time, we're 00:38:05.809 --> 00:38:08.949 really speaking of this academic language use, 00:38:09.050 --> 00:38:11.349 but not necessarily the language that they use 00:38:11.349 --> 00:38:14.690 in their daily conversations. These students 00:38:14.690 --> 00:38:18.550 have acquired a very high, uh let's say uh officials 00:38:18.550 --> 00:38:22.130 uh these students can speak their mother tongue 00:38:22.130 --> 00:38:25.949 fluently but there's no really use in the the 00:38:25.949 --> 00:38:28.230 current uh situation at the higher education 00:38:28.230 --> 00:38:32.050 level and then when they look for jobs uh although 00:38:32.050 --> 00:38:35.679 i think other Parts of China are different, but 00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:39.039 in Tibet, as I see, such as in Qinghai province, 00:38:39.219 --> 00:38:42.340 in the past, if you want to take an exam and 00:38:42.340 --> 00:38:45.119 apply for a job in a civil, let's say in the 00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:47.679 civil services or in a government, you really 00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:51.070 have to. prove that you are fluent both in chinese 00:38:51.070 --> 00:38:53.889 and the tibetan so usually the most of the courses 00:38:53.889 --> 00:38:56.449 are either in tibetan or chinese but you have 00:38:56.449 --> 00:38:58.630 to prove that you are fluent you are bilingually 00:38:58.630 --> 00:39:02.530 fluent but in recent years there's no such demands 00:39:02.530 --> 00:39:07.570 on the the proof of fluency in a tibetan so you 00:39:07.570 --> 00:39:10.389 have to just prove that you are tibetan ethnically 00:39:10.389 --> 00:39:13.829 so but that doesn't mean that you have to speak 00:39:13.829 --> 00:39:16.769 very good Tibetan. I'm not saying that Tibetans 00:39:16.769 --> 00:39:19.650 would decide or make decisions on whether they 00:39:19.650 --> 00:39:21.809 attend a bilingual school or Tibetan medium instruction 00:39:21.809 --> 00:39:24.869 just purely based on the employment, but that 00:39:24.869 --> 00:39:28.889 does have this washback effect. So for some Tibetans, 00:39:28.909 --> 00:39:30.949 when they see that, oh, if I go to Tibetan medium 00:39:30.949 --> 00:39:34.190 instruction and learn Tibetan well, but not so 00:39:34.190 --> 00:39:36.690 much focus on the Mandarin, then there's less 00:39:36.690 --> 00:39:41.139 opportunities at the university admission. Meaning 00:39:41.139 --> 00:39:42.619 that when they apply to university, there are 00:39:42.619 --> 00:39:45.059 less opportunities. And then those jobs require 00:39:45.059 --> 00:39:51.250 a strong influence in Mandarin. Although, let's 00:39:51.250 --> 00:39:53.730 say, as much as they love Tibetan and their mother 00:39:53.730 --> 00:39:56.590 tongue, but it's really hard for them to make 00:39:56.590 --> 00:39:58.989 a personal choice just based on their passion 00:39:58.989 --> 00:40:02.289 and enthusiasm and their love for their mother 00:40:02.289 --> 00:40:04.869 tongue. So that's why I think I would say that 00:40:04.869 --> 00:40:08.610 it's really about choice, or rather, it's a limited 00:40:08.610 --> 00:40:11.690 choice that forces these students to naturally 00:40:11.690 --> 00:40:14.210 give up, or let's say, or pay less attention 00:40:14.210 --> 00:40:17.010 to their mother tongue. However, I would also 00:40:17.010 --> 00:40:20.130 just... uh repeat to what the point that i mentioned 00:40:20.130 --> 00:40:22.409 before that is uh tibetan language can be also 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.800 language of entertainment and for social interactions 00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:28.300 and that's exactly what's happening in tibet 00:40:28.300 --> 00:40:32.539 at least from my observation that is in the life 00:40:32.539 --> 00:40:35.699 let's say uh live streaming uh social media platforms 00:40:35.699 --> 00:40:39.440 like question tibetans such widely used for example 00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:41.760 one of the one of the bloggers that i follow 00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:45.380 he has more than a thousand simultaneous viewers 00:40:45.380 --> 00:40:47.980 every night for his live stream and he talked 00:40:47.980 --> 00:40:50.960 about about literature history and culture and 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:53.309 uh to my surprise there's less censorship on 00:40:53.309 --> 00:40:55.389 this because there are also reports that once 00:40:55.389 --> 00:40:58.150 you use minority languages, all those media apps, 00:40:58.190 --> 00:41:01.030 you get censored or your live stream gets banned 00:41:01.030 --> 00:41:05.010 or prohibited. But so far, I haven't seen such 00:41:05.010 --> 00:41:09.809 cases, at least on this particular app. Lajia, 00:41:09.849 --> 00:41:13.269 just to take your point there a little further, 00:41:13.510 --> 00:41:15.590 it's really important to think of them the next 00:41:15.590 --> 00:41:17.469 generation. So we still have people in China 00:41:17.469 --> 00:41:20.150 growing up. With a mother tongue or at least 00:41:20.150 --> 00:41:22.309 a familiarity with a minority language in some 00:41:22.309 --> 00:41:24.730 contexts, those people are reducing in number, 00:41:24.789 --> 00:41:27.550 but they still exist. But as you've pointed out, 00:41:27.610 --> 00:41:30.809 these economic imperatives or incentives are 00:41:30.809 --> 00:41:34.150 not there for them to pursue that language much 00:41:34.150 --> 00:41:37.389 and in important domains in their adult lives. 00:41:37.650 --> 00:41:39.730 And those people often then choose not to pass 00:41:39.730 --> 00:41:42.670 on their language to their children at all. And 00:41:42.670 --> 00:41:45.030 that's where it's an issue of having no choice 00:41:45.030 --> 00:41:47.130 at all. These children don't get to grow up. 00:41:47.389 --> 00:41:49.769 Learning these languages as their mother tongues 00:41:49.769 --> 00:41:52.110 because their parents have decided that that 00:41:52.110 --> 00:41:55.469 won't be a sensible investment of time for them 00:41:55.469 --> 00:41:59.070 and some maybe never regret that but certainly 00:41:59.070 --> 00:42:03.869 some do and certainly that is the way that intergenerational 00:42:03.869 --> 00:42:06.909 transmission breaks down on such a rapid scale 00:42:06.909 --> 00:42:09.630 that you get a shift away from a language. Even 00:42:09.630 --> 00:42:11.909 a language that in the Chinese context can have 00:42:11.909 --> 00:42:14.369 a couple of million speakers and be a minority 00:42:14.369 --> 00:42:17.389 language in one or two generations can drastically 00:42:17.389 --> 00:42:20.449 fall down the cliff when you have that sense 00:42:20.449 --> 00:42:22.510 that people don't want to pass the language on 00:42:22.510 --> 00:42:25.860 to their children. Well, let's talk then about 00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:28.659 the Zhuang people. Alex, you've written about 00:42:28.659 --> 00:42:31.920 them. They reside in the Guangxi Autonomous Region 00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:34.579 in southern China. Can you give us a quick account 00:42:34.579 --> 00:42:37.360 of this ethnic group and the languages they speak? 00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:40.280 And then how has China's policies affected their 00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:44.639 language communication? Sure. So traditionally, 00:42:44.860 --> 00:42:47.179 Zhuang language originated in south -central 00:42:47.179 --> 00:42:50.159 China. Over the course of the 20th century, the 00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:53.539 people who spoke Chuang came to be territorialized 00:42:53.539 --> 00:42:58.559 in the Guangxi Autonomous Region and then an 00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:00.699 autonomous prefecture and an autonomous county 00:43:00.699 --> 00:43:04.800 in the neighboring provinces. No longer do those 00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:07.219 people necessarily always live in those areas 00:43:07.219 --> 00:43:09.239 because like everyone in China, they participate 00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:11.699 in this enormously high level of internal migration. 00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:18.409 Some of it permanent, some of it temporary. And 00:43:18.409 --> 00:43:19.889 then even within that area, there's enormous 00:43:19.889 --> 00:43:22.690 urbanization. So people who feel like are not 00:43:22.690 --> 00:43:25.250 moving away from the Zhuang speaking homelands 00:43:25.250 --> 00:43:27.690 are still having change arrive at their doorstep. 00:43:28.590 --> 00:43:32.530 And so in this context, there is increasingly 00:43:32.530 --> 00:43:36.190 little place for Zhuang in everyday life. I've 00:43:36.190 --> 00:43:38.769 mentioned before in this podcast in various answers, 00:43:38.849 --> 00:43:41.210 there's very little access to literacy in Zhuang. 00:43:41.650 --> 00:43:44.150 There's very little access to schooling in Zhuang. 00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:47.800 If we look at the built environment, there are 00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:52.380 very few cues that prompt people to use Zhuang 00:43:52.380 --> 00:43:55.380 or to think that Zhuang is in place in that area. 00:43:55.519 --> 00:43:57.699 And that's something I write a lot about in my 00:43:57.699 --> 00:44:01.820 own work. And so there is increasingly a sense 00:44:01.820 --> 00:44:04.940 that Zhuang is displaced even from its homelands, 00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:09.659 but also relegated to them. The way we're talking 00:44:09.659 --> 00:44:11.559 about it, the way the legal system talks about 00:44:11.559 --> 00:44:14.000 it, it's as if Zhuang can only be legitimately 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:18.159 spoken within these areas of South Central China. 00:44:18.300 --> 00:44:20.579 So once people move out of them, they have no 00:44:20.579 --> 00:44:23.460 legitimate expectation of any linguistic protection 00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:29.599 or support. And so that really localised, territorialised 00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:33.599 system is just totally at odds with the mobility, 00:44:34.460 --> 00:44:38.159 the urbanisation, you know the everyday life 00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:41.820 of contemporary china and how has the community 00:44:41.820 --> 00:44:44.619 responded to the reduced status of their language 00:44:44.619 --> 00:44:48.159 in official venues well i mean this is a community 00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:51.920 of some 17 million people so it's hard to give 00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:56.119 an answer that represents everyone but Even the 00:44:56.119 --> 00:44:58.659 Guangxi government itself, so the regional autonomous 00:44:58.659 --> 00:45:01.260 government itself in 2019 published a report 00:45:01.260 --> 00:45:04.239 that surprised me in its frankness on the weakening 00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:07.079 status of Zhuang. So it's recognized as an issue. 00:45:07.820 --> 00:45:10.760 When I spoke to people, so as part of my doctoral 00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:12.880 research, I did interviews with Zhuang community 00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:17.579 leaders and separately with young people, just 00:45:17.579 --> 00:45:20.280 university age people with Zhuang language heritage. 00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:23.099 But there was a sense from some people of great 00:45:23.099 --> 00:45:26.300 disappointment. And then there was a sense from 00:45:26.300 --> 00:45:30.920 other people that it was, if you like, something 00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:32.960 of a fault of the community themselves that they 00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:34.579 hadn't pushed for more, they hadn't expected 00:45:34.579 --> 00:45:37.440 more. And so you get this diversity of views 00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:39.780 as to, like, to what extent this is a problem 00:45:39.780 --> 00:45:42.320 and who is to blame or how to fix the problem. 00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:45.519 I also did interviews up in Inner Mongolia, so 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:48.000 in the far north of the country. And just to 00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:50.699 give a really, you know, sort of... I think, 00:45:50.699 --> 00:45:53.239 telling little example of how some people can 00:45:53.239 --> 00:45:55.260 feel about this. I sat down with a group of language 00:45:55.260 --> 00:45:57.960 officials who had retired, Mongolian language 00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:00.199 officials. So they were passionate enough about 00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:02.539 Mongolian language to have made it their work, 00:46:02.539 --> 00:46:05.099 their life, but they hadn't passed it on to their 00:46:05.099 --> 00:46:07.699 children. They had raised non -Mongolian speaking 00:46:07.699 --> 00:46:10.320 children. And now in their retirement and their 00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:12.719 children's adulthood, those children were very 00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:15.460 disappointed and felt they had lost a part of 00:46:15.460 --> 00:46:18.340 themselves or never had access to it. And those 00:46:18.340 --> 00:46:21.599 retirees told me that they felt really regretful 00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:24.420 about the decision they had made. And so that 00:46:24.420 --> 00:46:26.780 is also a scenario that can happen where, you 00:46:26.780 --> 00:46:29.039 know, a community can respond to this by feeling, 00:46:29.059 --> 00:46:32.059 well, what can we do or whose fault is it? Or, 00:46:32.099 --> 00:46:35.039 you know, we just need to get ahead. It's a pretty 00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:37.260 poor part of China. And yet at the same time, 00:46:37.260 --> 00:46:41.340 come to also feel like regretful or mournful 00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:44.059 that they've lost something. And so the question 00:46:44.059 --> 00:46:47.309 I take away from that is that. Is it not possible 00:46:47.309 --> 00:46:50.829 for policy to make people both richer and bilingual? 00:46:51.550 --> 00:46:53.929 Why does it have to always be a trade -off between 00:46:53.929 --> 00:46:56.269 a minority language and getting ahead in the 00:46:56.269 --> 00:46:59.130 world? Well, that really does then raise the 00:46:59.130 --> 00:47:01.150 question, and I suppose this goes to both of 00:47:01.150 --> 00:47:04.769 you, and Alex, I'll come to you first. The process 00:47:04.769 --> 00:47:08.369 of migration and demographic shift often results 00:47:08.369 --> 00:47:10.710 in a shift by speakers away from the languages 00:47:10.710 --> 00:47:13.650 of their ethnic backgrounds or ancestral homelands. 00:47:13.750 --> 00:47:16.650 That's a natural thing that happens. It can happen 00:47:16.650 --> 00:47:19.710 without policy measures by government. Does that 00:47:19.710 --> 00:47:22.949 mean language shift should then be ignored by 00:47:22.949 --> 00:47:26.840 researchers, advocates, or policymakers? Certainly 00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:29.300 not, because it's not necessarily natural, just 00:47:29.300 --> 00:47:34.820 because it happens a lot. I mean, societal change, 00:47:35.059 --> 00:47:38.199 migration, demographic change, change in the 00:47:38.199 --> 00:47:39.960 economy, all these things happen and all these 00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:43.760 things create pressures and changes in language, 00:47:43.960 --> 00:47:48.079 in the relationships between languages in many 00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:51.400 places around the world. But that doesn't mean 00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:54.710 that there's no room for policy to step in. And 00:47:54.710 --> 00:47:56.349 the fact that these things haven't been directly 00:47:56.349 --> 00:47:59.590 caused by policies that were overtly intending 00:47:59.590 --> 00:48:03.349 to wipe out languages doesn't mean that there's 00:48:03.349 --> 00:48:05.409 no policy involvement at all. You know, not having 00:48:05.409 --> 00:48:09.090 a policy or just having, as in the case I have 00:48:09.090 --> 00:48:11.449 studied, having policies that are outdated and 00:48:11.449 --> 00:48:14.210 non -responsive to the current situation. That's 00:48:14.210 --> 00:48:18.219 a kind of policy response that creates. this 00:48:18.219 --> 00:48:20.780 sort of problem. So it doesn't have to be an 00:48:20.780 --> 00:48:23.739 explicitly oppressive language policy for us 00:48:23.739 --> 00:48:26.179 to pay attention to the situation and say there 00:48:26.179 --> 00:48:29.159 might be a role for government here. I was thinking 00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:31.960 overnight of a somewhat provocative analogy, 00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:36.500 but let's think of the case of female infanticide 00:48:36.500 --> 00:48:39.159 that is common in some parts of the world still. 00:48:40.219 --> 00:48:45.039 People make that very unfortunate choice. because 00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:47.360 they feel compelled by reasons to do with say 00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:53.119 economics or opportunity that might be something 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:56.360 that has arisen without a government policy of 00:48:56.360 --> 00:48:58.179 course nowhere in the world is there a government 00:48:58.179 --> 00:49:00.780 policy saying you must kill your female children 00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:04.300 And yet nowhere do we sit back and say, well, 00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:06.760 that means it's not a problem. Of course, we 00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:09.119 look at that and we, as a society in many places, 00:49:09.139 --> 00:49:11.019 as a government in many places, construct that 00:49:11.019 --> 00:49:13.219 as a problem and something that perhaps needs 00:49:13.219 --> 00:49:16.380 policy intervention to shift those imperatives 00:49:16.380 --> 00:49:18.860 or to shift the kind of choices that people are 00:49:18.860 --> 00:49:21.530 making in those households. And it's not a perfect 00:49:21.530 --> 00:49:24.309 analogy, of course, but I think it helps us understand 00:49:24.309 --> 00:49:26.869 that what happens to people's languages in their 00:49:26.869 --> 00:49:29.369 households, in the way they use languages, in 00:49:29.369 --> 00:49:31.570 the way they transmit languages, in whether or 00:49:31.570 --> 00:49:36.429 not they maintain multilingual lives or shift 00:49:36.429 --> 00:49:39.610 to just one particular language, that can happen 00:49:39.610 --> 00:49:41.809 under so much societal and economic pressure 00:49:41.809 --> 00:49:45.409 that there is space for policy to step in and 00:49:45.409 --> 00:49:48.869 change those conditions. So to you then also, 00:49:48.949 --> 00:49:51.929 Elijah, as social scientists, how can minority 00:49:51.929 --> 00:49:54.329 languages be given the best chance of remaining 00:49:54.329 --> 00:49:57.869 viable and vibrant? What do you think? As a social 00:49:57.869 --> 00:50:00.570 scientist, I think we have to really be very, 00:50:00.690 --> 00:50:03.989 let's say, descriptive and analytical rather 00:50:03.989 --> 00:50:07.320 than saying... that we should prescribe certain, 00:50:07.500 --> 00:50:11.400 let's say, solutions or changes or, let's say, 00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:14.079 reforms, because the world is changing fast. 00:50:14.380 --> 00:50:17.679 And the case I see in Tibet is that it's not 00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:20.599 necessarily, like, let's say, there's a formula 00:50:20.599 --> 00:50:23.920 that we as a social scientist think is good, 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:27.239 but not necessarily in the interest of the locals. 00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:29.360 So, for example, speaking of Tibetan bilingual 00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:32.639 education, currently, really, the problem is 00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:35.579 not whether Tibetans should be eliminated in 00:50:35.579 --> 00:50:37.539 the schools or not. But rather, should Tibetan 00:50:37.539 --> 00:50:40.219 be the medium of instruction or language subject? 00:50:40.599 --> 00:50:43.360 And for Tibetans, there are a lot who think that 00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:46.320 language, Tibetan as a language subject is sufficient 00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:48.719 for their kids to pick up. And then they would 00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:50.880 rather their kids to learn Mandarin. Although 00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:52.880 I'm not saying that's desirable outcome for most, 00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:55.840 but there are some Tibetans who think this way. 00:50:55.900 --> 00:50:59.079 Because that way they can send their kids to 00:50:59.079 --> 00:51:02.219 really good universities and get higher. paying 00:51:02.219 --> 00:51:05.599 jobs. But in the meantime, they can get to pick 00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:07.320 up their Tibetan. Because Tibetan, let's say, 00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:10.619 there's also this linguistic part to this argument. 00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:14.219 That is, we humans are very capable of picking 00:51:14.219 --> 00:51:17.139 up languages, especially at a younger age. It's 00:51:17.139 --> 00:51:20.079 very, very common in some societies to be bilingual 00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:23.019 or multilingual. And so that's why in Tibetan 00:51:23.019 --> 00:51:26.480 community, let's say, asking someone to really 00:51:27.340 --> 00:51:29.480 learn to speak two languages at the same time 00:51:29.480 --> 00:51:32.900 is not really too much to ask. Because kids pick 00:51:32.900 --> 00:51:38.880 up language very naturally. And those kids attend 00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:41.079 schools because they attend bilingual schools. 00:51:41.219 --> 00:51:43.579 Mostly their peers are Tibetan. And then they 00:51:43.579 --> 00:51:46.559 learn really Tibetan very fast. And there are 00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:50.400 more, as I said, programs on those social media 00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:52.960 apps. And also their parents at least speak Tibetan. 00:51:53.099 --> 00:51:57.619 So yes. So overall, I think for me, I tend to 00:51:57.619 --> 00:52:00.670 really describe better than just analyze why 00:52:00.670 --> 00:52:04.130 this happens. And so that's why when I see this 00:52:04.130 --> 00:52:06.710 language movement, I'm very critical. For example, 00:52:06.710 --> 00:52:09.110 on one hand, I see this language ideology of 00:52:09.110 --> 00:52:12.349 authenticity as a very powerful tool to organize 00:52:12.349 --> 00:52:15.150 and to really raise awareness about the importance 00:52:15.150 --> 00:52:17.329 of speaking Tibetan. But on the other hand, I 00:52:17.329 --> 00:52:20.929 see this exclusionary, even this social discipline 00:52:20.929 --> 00:52:23.630 among Tibetans to please each other and to see, 00:52:23.670 --> 00:52:25.929 oh, are you Tibetan or not? Why you are not speaking 00:52:25.929 --> 00:52:29.909 Tibetan? Because that does have a bad let's say, 00:52:29.949 --> 00:52:32.309 effect on those who do not speak Tibetan, but 00:52:32.309 --> 00:52:36.610 probably Tibet. Our guests have been Dr. Lajia 00:52:36.610 --> 00:52:39.969 Tu of Asia Institute and Dr. Alexandra Gray from 00:52:39.969 --> 00:52:42.670 University of Technology, Sydney. Thank you both. 00:52:43.150 --> 00:52:47.269 Thank you. Thanks so much. Ear to Asia is brought 00:52:47.269 --> 00:52:49.889 to you by Asia Institute of the University of 00:52:49.889 --> 00:53:10.650 Melbourne, Australia. and review it. Every positive 00:53:10.650 --> 00:53:13.610 review helps new listeners find the show. And 00:53:13.610 --> 00:53:15.829 please help us by spreading the word on your 00:53:15.829 --> 00:53:19.289 socials. This episode was recorded on the 19th 00:53:19.289 --> 00:53:23.289 of March, 2025. Producers were Kelvin Param and 00:53:23.289 --> 00:53:27.510 Eric Van Bemmel of Profactual .com. Ear to Asia 00:53:27.510 --> 00:53:30.010 is licensed under Creative Commons, copyright 00:53:30.010 --> 00:53:33.489 2025, the University of Melbourne. I'm Sami Shah. 00:53:33.630 --> 00:53:34.909 Thanks for your company.