Hello, I'm Brandon Mortini, a commercial pilot and flight instructor.
And I'm Carson Vasquez, I'm a private pilot.
And you're listening to the Aviation Mentors podcast sponsored by Stratus Financial.
So buckle up because the Aviation Mentors are taking off.
Welcome back everyone to another amazing episode of the Aviation Mentors podcast.
Today, we wanted to discuss some of the specifics of getting your instrument rating.
I know we've talked about getting your instrument rating once before,
but we just barely touched on it in a really short episode.
So we want to dive a little bit deeper and hopefully give you guys some content that's really useful,
especially on some changes that happened a little over a year ago that some CFIs are still getting confused with.
So there's obviously a ton of effort that goes into getting an instrument rating.
But like all your certificates and ratings, there are certain requirements that really have to go into it.
Well, there are a few things that we really want to discuss today.
The last time we talked about instrument ratings, there was really the struggles behind it.
I think I want to talk about that because I was having a particularly rough couple lessons before that.
I'm sure that's what it was, right?
It absolutely was, Carson.
And by the way, everybody, I hope you're enjoying my use of these little things that I found on our media today.
I think they're funny, so.
That's a matter, so we're going to keep using them.
We're here to keep ourselves entertained and you guys are all just a great bonus to it.
We talked about a lot of just the struggles behind it, but there's a couple of things we want to discuss today.
So let's start off with a quick refresher on what you can do with your instrument rating.
Well, what you can do with your instrument rating is fly an IFR, right?
I mean, that's the big thing that you want to do, instrument flight rules.
So that means you can actually file a flight plan and fly an instrument weather conditions.
So which means below VFR.
So that means you can fly less than three miles visibility.
You can fly less than three miles visibility and you can fly in the clouds.
You don't have to stay away from them and you don't have to keep your VFR minimums in whatever airspace you may be in.
So some airspace you can be right next to the cloud, but not touching it.
And some of them you have to be several thousand feet away.
So when you're flying IFR, you can actually fly straight through them, which is fantastic.
But guess what? When you're in a cloud or in low visibility conditions, you can't see.
So if you can't see, then you definitely need to be relying on your instruments.
So that's why it's called instrument flight rules or IFR.
You can essentially also move through different airspace a lot easier.
For example, you don't actually need a clearance through Class Bravo.
You're automatically cleared through a Class Bravo when you're on an IFR flight plan.
I did not actually realize that when I initially got my instrument rating.
I thought that I still had to be cleared through Class Bravo.
And I don't know how that got missed on my checkride, but somehow I didn't realize that and I still passed the checkride.
So you can still not know everything after you pass the checkride and that's kind of normal, right?
Remember when you get a license or a certificate or a rating, it's really an additional rating or license to learn.
So you can learn a little bit more about flying and different things.
So don't be afraid to make a mistake.
Like I always say, there's no stupid questions.
The only time it's stupid is the first time because you'll never be stupid again.
And I feel really good about that because I won't be stupid after I ask the question, right?
And you also don't have to adhere to any specific weather requirements like I kind of talked about earlier.
So it also allows you can fly as a commercial pilot.
I mean, actually you can fly as a commercial pilot without being IFR rated, but it's really kind of restricts you on a lot of things.
And I don't know anybody that would hire you as a commercial pilot without an IFR rating.
It really just doesn't make any sense, right?
And you also will probably have an instrument rating if you want to become a flight instructor, right?
You need to be able to fly in the clouds and be able to teach people how to get out of a sticky situation, right?
So that's how you can still do your three hours as a private pilot under the hood with a non CF-II.
You can do it with a just a CF-I.
You can even fly in the clouds with a CF-I.
It just doesn't count as double eye time towards your instrument rating later on.
So that in a nutshell is what you can kind of do with an IFR rating.
Oh, by the way, one other thing, IFR rating will also keep you out of dangerous airspace.
It'll keep you on what's called Victor Airways or T routes or depending on what type of flying you're doing.
But they'll keep you out of MOAs, military operating areas, and they'll also keep you out of restricted airspace.
So you'll never have to worry about that, whether it's restricted airspace all the way up to outer space or if it's just restricted airspace along maybe 2,000 feet or something.
It'll keep you out of all the restricted airspace, which is fantastic as well.
I mean, why wouldn't you want to get your instrument?
There's just plenty of positives to it, like the ability to get yourself out of sticky situations, that extra knowledge.
But we're called the instrument rating because of the instruments.
So in terms of the plane that you're going to be training in, Brandon, when you're doing the instrument rating and the instrument training for it, does the plane that you're training in actually need to be instrument rated?
The answer is kind of.
There's really no such thing as an instrument rated airplane.
There's an airplane that has the tools that will allow you to either train for an instrument rating, which means it'll have like VORs and navades and things like that in it.
And it'll also have the pedostatic check and transponder check, right?
You need all of those things to make an airplane IFR.
It also has to be certified in a standard category aircraft for it to fly IFR.
So whenever you go look at your Cessna 172 or more Cherokee or whatever you may fly, that's a standard type of aircraft.
You'll notice in it that it says for VFR and IFR night.
It typically will say those night and day.
Actually, it'll say it in the aircraft or in your POH.
But if you go fly a light sport like my icon, it will say VFR day only or it'll say something like that.
But since it's a light sport, I'm not sure if it says that I would have to go double check.
But you're only allowed to fly IFR in a plane that was certified to be able to fly IFR.
Besides it being certified to fly IFR, it also has, like I said, it has to have all of the instruments that are needed.
And then it also has to have the pedostatic transponder check.
But outside of that, you can fly an airplane that was not originally certified to be IFR such as a light sport aircraft.
So I have a friend of mine who has an a vector harmony.
And with that a vector harmony, it is not instrument rated from the manufacturer in the FAA.
It strictly has the instruments in the aircraft for it to be able to fly simulated IFR.
So you can go to practice approaches all day long in it.
You can actually go into the hood all day long in it, but you are not allowed to fly that airplane in a cloud.
So you can do all of your training in that airplane and you can still get through all of it.
And then you can take your check right in that airplane as well as long as you never fly through an actual cloud.
As long as it's all hood time or simulated instrument time.
So is there a reason for it? I mean, it has all the capabilities aside from it just being not licensed for it or made for it by the manufacturer.
It's the rule. That's really all it comes down to.
I've heard talkings about light sports being able to fly IFR.
And to be honest, I think there's several light sports that should be able to be flown IFR.
Same thing with some experimental aircraft.
So the answer is, should they be able to?
I absolutely think they should be able to.
Not all, but some, especially ones that are actually capable of it.
That harmony that I'm talking about, I mean, it has a four-autopilot.
It can fly. It's a Garmin autopilot.
It'll fly the approach all the way down to minimums for you.
I mean, it's a really capable aircraft.
But also when you are flying in instrument weather conditions, it could be a little bit more bumpy.
It could have really bad turbulence.
You could accidentally fly into something that you want to.
And I could see how the FAA would probably see that as not being very safe,
because you're flying a really light aircraft into a turbulent situation.
And it's not really rated for that type of turbulence, for lack of a better word.
So that's why I think that they don't allow it,
but there should be some that they really should allow, honestly.
So I guess there's nothing physically stopping the plane,
except for the turbulence and, of course, the rule that you can't do it.
There should be nothing stopping it.
But while we're talking about IMC, it brings up another question I have.
Can you get your instrument rating without ever experiencing instrument-mere-longable conditions,
without ever going into the soup, as everyone likes to call it?
Absolutely, you can.
Most people, I've met, get their instrument rating without ever going into the soup or going IFR.
They never go into a cloud. They don't know what it's like.
They may live in a place that they don't get clouds very often,
so it's not really possible to do that, right?
I know that I had, I don't know, I think I had only like four hours or three hours of actual instrument,
maybe a little less than that, when I got my instrument rating.
And I think that most people I've ever met did not have any.
I don't think that's great. I really think that you should go experience IMC.
It's a heck of a lot different than flying with the hood on.
When you fly with a hood, you can cheat a little bit.
I mean, let's be honest about it.
You can side-eye and look outside the window and see if you're really level.
I mean, there's ways you can cheat yourself out of it, which I don't recommend.
I mean, you want to learn the skill, right?
You don't want to try to cheat yourself out of learning that skill
and letting your body learn the skill is really what you want to do.
You want to let your body learn the skill of instrument flying
and to ignore certain senses from your middle ear telling you,
hey, I'm turning left really hard, but in reality, you're going straight and level.
And if you turn right to counteract that, you're going to get into a spiral
or something that's not fun.
But I feel like when you're under the hood, you just have that tendency
to want to look out and it's so unnatural to not be able to see but fly an airplane.
It's true it is. I mean, that's why you need to really try to force yourself
to not cheat on that part of it, right?
You really should have that hood on and that's why I like the big hoods.
So some people use Foggles, which I use Foggles most of the time,
but if you use the big hood, the reason why we call it a hood
is because it literally is like a hood over your whole face.
And I wish you guys could see my hand movements right now.
Don't worry, eventually we're going to get to video and you're going to see
all of my hand movements and my facial expressions
and all the funny things that we do on this, right?
Yeah, just a few more weeks and we can see your face do it.
Exactly. And I'm enjoying this drum joke and different things way too much,
obviously, on this episode. Hope you guys are too.
But I think that's the difference between doing simulated hood time
versus actual IMC is you can't cheat.
You look out the window and that's when you actually start to really get disoriented
and it's what teaches you to look at your instruments and have your scan
do things the right way.
Yeah, that's true. Did you have any actual IFR Carson in your instrument training?
I know you have quite a few hours now.
Yeah, I've got about 250 and 200 of them were IMC. I do a lot. No, I'm just kidding.
Yeah, right.
We don't live in Washington.
We do not know Southern California.
I get maybe 0.001 when I fly through the layer and during June Gloom.
But yeah, I think I have about probably about the same.
You did me to check right like five or six hours.
Yeah, I mean, I've got a lot more IMC this year than I have any other year.
I don't know if it's because of the El Nino year or whatever it's been,
but literally we had six months of absolute terrible weather in California.
I've never seen this terrible of weather in California.
It's been brutal.
That's been dark and gloomy and perfect time to do your instrument training really.
It really has been.
I mean, I know a lot of students that got their instrument rating that normally wouldn't have
and it's because their instructors willing to go fly IFR.
I know, by the way, it is legal.
I don't even think we have this as a topic,
but it is legal to go do your check ride, actual IFR,
but your DP has to be okay with it and not all DP's are okay with that.
I don't think I would be okay with that as a DP
because the liability transfers from the student,
now it transfers to me as the pilot examiner.
And if something goes wrong, I just don't want that liability,
especially where I would be out in my flying career.
So some DP's will do it and some will not.
So my personal preference, I don't think I would
because I just want to err on the side of safety.
It's what the FAA would want.
It's what I would want.
And there's a lot of people I think that would.
I think it would make for a nerve-racking check ride,
but before we get into the check rides themselves,
I know there's just a big change with the instrument requirements
to take the check ride.
And I think it happened about this time last year,
a couple of months before that.
But can you explain what that change was about?
Yeah, what Carson's referring to is a memorandum that the FAA released
in February of 2022 that overruled two prior interpretations
of part 61-65 Delta II II Charlie.
Yeah, I know, it's not mouthful.
It's written in there.
But you can go look at the forum and you can go find it
if you would like.
It's there.
But what it says, it says that the 250 nautical mile
cross country had to be done with three different kinds of approaches
with the use of navigational systems.
So before you had to do like a localizer,
you had to do a VOR and then you had to do a GPS
or you could have done an ILS, a VOR and a GPS approach
or something like that.
You just had to do three different ones.
But the previous rulings concluded that three different types
of navigation systems that had to be used.
And the other ruling was the precision approach,
radars and airport surveillance radars not to count as navigation
systems in terms of satisfying the requirement.
According to the FAA assistant chief counsel for regulations
in this memo, he quotes, quote unquote,
the regulations plain language requires three different types
of approaches, not three different types of navigation systems.
So essentially you can do three different types of approaches
anywhere.
So if you go and do an ILS at ABC airport and then you go
to an ILS at RAL airport and then you do an ILS at Chino airport,
those count as three different types of approaches because
the regulation did not say three different types of navigational
systems.
So that's what's changed in that particular regulation.
So if you want to do three GPS approaches on that long-term
country, feel free.
You can do three if your plane has it.
I believe you can actually even do three with an autopilot if
you wanted to.
I will tell you that you will not be as good of a pilot if you
go to three of the same exact types of approaches at three
different airports.
And you use the autopilot all the way down to minimums every
time at that.
You should probably do it the way that it was interpreted
prior.
And you should do three separate different types of approaches
at three different airports.
It's a lot.
And I remember doing it for my instrument training and it's
not easy.
It really drains you.
And after that flight, you learn a lot about yourself and you
learn a lot about the airplane and you learn really a lot about
instrument flying because I mean, you're really doing it.
I mean, try doing a VR approach into Camarillo, Charlie Mike
Alpha.
By the way, everybody who's a pilot or studying to be a pilot,
you should go look up that airport and you should go look up
the VR approach to that airport.
It's an absolute nightmare.
You have a turn, twist, time to and travel talk the whole time
and you are twisting every time you pass a radial, you're going
to have to pass another radial and then descend at the same time.
And your hand is like constantly just on that OBS knob, just
changing your radial that you're trying to intercept.
It's really interesting, challenging.
And it's a really fun approach after you master it.
I don't think I mastered it on my 215 nautical mile approach.
And I don't know if I would have done that on my check ride,
but I can say I've done that approach several times in the
past.
I haven't been able to do it lately because the VR, which is
Formar, F-I-M, is the instrument, is the VR unit that we use to
check those radials and it's been out of service for a long time.
I mean, even when you told me you were going to go fly and do
some training a few months ago, you said it was out.
And I tried it, I think three weeks ago or something and I
think it was out then too.
So it's always out and I can't deal with that.
So unfortunately, I don't go there anymore.
Well, I started doing my training after this memorandum came out.
So I haven't really known anything different.
So if you can remember this far back because I know you're getting
older up there in age and especially because when everyone
hears this episode, it's going to be your birthday.
So just want to let everyone know.
Happy birthday, Brandon.
Thank you.
Yes, I will be older on the day that this comes out.
So thank you for the birthday wishes, Carson, for letting everybody
know this.
I'm so happy that 20,000 more people are going to know about
my birthday.
So I appreciate that.
Of course, it's the swizz of birthdays.
Happy birthday wishes you're going to get out of me.
Thank you.
So Brandon, if you can remember that that far back, what did you do
for your instrument check ride and what was that like?
Well, back in my day, not really.
So I couldn't help myself.
Hope you guys are liking this episode because we're doing it the
night before 4th of July at 10 o'clock at night, Pacific time.
So that's 1 a.m. Eastern for all of you.
And I know I've been up since around 6 a.m. this morning.
You probably about the same Carson.
So we're running on fumes here, but literally we've been prepping
for family stuff tomorrow all day and I had a lot of work to do
today because I was out on Friday.
So we're doing this really late tonight.
So we're a little bit, a little bit giddy, I think.
Winner's going to win, but we also discovered the sound effects.
So I hope that's to your guys' benefit.
Exactly.
Or detriment.
I'm not really sure.
Hopefully we can have our producer, Phil, help us tune those in.
A little bit more.
And I mean, maybe you can do it in post production.
Probably way better.
So what did the check right look like for me back, back when I did it?
It was, it was almost a decade ago now, a little less than that actually.
But instrument check right looked, looked very much the same and
prepping for that instrument check ride was very much the same.
I did it a lot later.
So I already had well over my 50 hours of cross country.
I had well over 40 hours of my simulated instrument.
And then because I was a slow IFR learner, I had well over my 15 hours of
instrument flight training with a CF double eye, which is what you need to do.
So you can do a lot of that cross country and simulated time with,
with a safety pilot in certain circumstances.
You have to log it correctly.
Like I've talked about in the previous episode, but you also have to have that
15 hours with a double eye.
So you can do a lot of stuff with a CFI, but the double eye stuff is really
where it needs to be, be done to, to finalize everything.
Right.
So taking the check ride was really, was really a great experience for me.
I was really nervous.
I was really scared for it because I, I was one of those guys who failed the
instrument written, I think two times before I finally passed it.
I'm not a really good written test taker at all.
The, the words on written test confused me always.
And it's just, it's not my thing.
I'm, I'm great at and I'm more than happy to admit that.
But as soon as I practiced and study, I always finished it.
So I, I finally finished my written, I went and took my, my IFR test and the
oral was a couple hours long and we touched on weather quite a bit because
that's what you're going to be flying and you're flying in different kinds of
weather.
And, and then taking the check ride, I did several different approaches.
I can't remember exactly which approaches I did, but I can tell you the
three airports that I did go to, to do the approaches.
I did an approach into Chino airport.
I did an approach into Corona airport, which was probably the VR alpha.
And then I also did an approach into a San Bernardino airport.
And that's because we were doing, we were doing that in San Bernardino.
And then my airplane had a DME in it.
It was Cecil 172 and had a DME.
So I had to do a DME arc as well.
And I know a lot of people don't have to do DME arcs because their airplanes
do not have DME.
But if you have GPS, it's probably going to be on your check ride.
So make sure you learn how to do a DME arc.
You can even do kind of a simulated DME arc if you're not going to do one of
those types of approaches, which is kind of fun.
I did not have to do one of those approaches, but I did after the arc.
And then obviously you have to do a bunch of hood time.
I mean, pretty much the entire check ride is under the hood for you to do.
And my DP actually like pretended he was ATC and I actually had a little bit
of trouble figuring this out.
I was like, you're simulating ATC or you are ATC.
I didn't know if I was just supposed to repeat things back to him or anything
or something like that.
So he was really helpful though.
He explained to me what we were doing a second time because obviously I was
nervous just like everybody is on a check ride.
But we did those approaches and we used all the navigational aids.
He had me tracking VRs and he had me do all the stuff that we had to do.
And luckily I got back down and I asked him how I did and I looked to my right
and Ernie said, he said nothing.
He just gave me a thumbs up on our taxi back.
And I just was, I remembered what I did on my first check ride.
And after I got the thumbs up from Andrea, I put my arm out the window
and she yelled at me in a nice way but yelled at me.
And I put my arm back in the window.
She said, we're not parked yet and you haven't passed yet.
That's what she told me on my private check ride.
So I made sure I didn't make that mistake on my instrument.
When I kept my arm inside, I didn't want to cool down no matter how hot I was.
It didn't matter.
So I ended up doing that and went in and I got a shiny new piece of paper.
And back then you actually, you'd actually take a hole puncher and punch a hole
in your existing certificate because it was no longer valid.
And I haven't seen many DPs do that lately.
So I don't know if that's a requirement when you get a new certificate anymore,
which is, I don't know, an interesting thing.
But they used to do it right where your, like the little logo is.
I don't, not really, it's like the FAA logo on the, on the left or right side.
I don't remember which side it's on, but they would take it and poke a hole right there.
So that was kind of the synopsis of my instrument check ride.
I mean, it sounds like there's a lot that goes into your instrument check ride
and I'm still scared for mine.
So I'll remember not to put my arm out the window though.
Thanks.
I was waiting for that one.
Yeah, you should have been.
Well, you know, as we discussed in, in one of you guys' favorite episodes,
15 things to do after your private pilot, getting your instrument rating is a great
next step in your aviation career.
And it allows you to really take flight in a variety of weather conditions and things
that you just can't fly in with only your private pilot license.
So another interesting thing that we see is the FAA is memorandum regarding that long
cross country requirement and it applies to the check rides as well.
So that, you know, you can kind of see the FAA is prone to adapting and evolving to
make things easier for us in our flight training.
I'm really grateful.
The FAA has been adapting to a lot of things.
They, they obviously adapt slower because they have to, it's the federal government.
They, they're going to work a little slower.
They want to, they want to do checks and balances, which is fantastic for, for everything.
But you're going to see the FAA make a lot of changes in the near future, especially
after we get a new administrator that's a full-time administrator.
I can guarantee we're going to see some, some sweeping regulations that have come out of
this, especially due to the pilot shortage, which status financial is helping solve by
financing more pilots.
But I think you're going to see different regulations in regards to minimums, in regards
to like ATP minimums, things like that.
But I'm not sure when that'll happen.
There's a lot of different, different companies and, and different regulatory authorities
and different places that don't really want that to happen.
So we'll see what happens.
But like Carson said, getting your instrument rating is really probably one of the best
things you can do as a pilot.
If you own an airplane, it's going to lower your insurance cost immensely, typically by
the time your next billing period is.
So try to get it before your next billing period.
If you are going to get an instrument rating, you own your own airplane.
But go get your instrument rating.
It's, it's fantastic to fly in a cloud.
It's really an interesting experience.
It puts your body in a place that you've never been before in the air is already abnormal,
but really being in the air and being in the middle of a cloud or your senses don't matter.
It's really an exhilarating process and it gets your blood pumping and it's really just,
I don't know if I would call it enjoyable right away, but it, but it is something that,
that you should experience and, and live, live life and go do it.
So I hope you got something out of today's episode on our deep dive into an instrument rating.
And if you want to hear something from us, please reach out to us.
By the way, this, this idea came up from, I'm in a group called the student pilot community on
Facebook and every once in a while I chime in on student pilot questions and comments.
And I don't know if it was today or yesterday.
I chimed in on a student's question and it was regarding using an airplane that is not certified
IFR to be able to fly and do training in.
And I thought that was a fantastic episode idea and I know we just touched barely on the instrument
rating prior.
So I wanted to get into a little bit of more of a deep dive and really talk about what you
can do with that instrument rating and what airplanes you can use.
And that's really what kind of started this.
So ask questions, even ask them in those groups because we do see them.
I'm all over the Facebook and, and Reddit groups.
So I, I like to poke around and hopefully find them and Carson does the same.
So thanks a lot for listening today.
And if you'd like to reach out to either one of us, you can reach us at brandon at aviationmentors.com
or costa net aviationmentors.com.
And as a wrap up for the day, remember we're here to guide you in your aviation journey.
So fly safe and enjoy the ride.
That's all folks.