WEBVTT

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Hi, family. Welcome back to another episode of

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the Prosecco Queens podcast. I'm your host, Teresa.

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And today's conversation is one that holds a

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lot of weight and a lot of heart. Before we begin,

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I want to gently let you know that today's episode

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touches on child loss and subjects that may be

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triggering. So if you're in a tender place or

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if this topic is close to home, please handle

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with care and do what you need to do for yourself.

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My guest today. is June Krahulik, an author,

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advocate, and deeply thoughtful woman whose life

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took an unimaginable turn in 2012 when her two

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-year -old son Caleb passed away. That loss brought

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Jane to a crossroads. In the midst of her grief,

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she began writing, first as a way to cope and

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eventually as a way to connect and help others.

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In her book, Mama, You Don't Heal, June writes,

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Congratulations, Mama. You're a part of a club

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no one ever asked to be in and a part of a group

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of women who are treated like they have the plague.

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Yes, you are a mama of an angel, a child that

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left way too soon. The day your child left this

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world was the day your life stopped making sense.

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June's journey through grief and loss and the

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way she's rebuilt from there is one of resilience,

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vulnerability, and purpose. June's first book

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is a powerful and honest reflection of what it

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means to live with grief whilst still moving

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forward. It's not a how -to. It's a heartfelt

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offering for women who are walking through the

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hardest days of their lives, reminding them that

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healing doesn't mean forgetting. It means honoring

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and continuing. June's journey didn't end there.

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She went on to study the mind and the many ways

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we process pain and rebuild through her training

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in multiple forms of therapy and the community

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she created for other mothers. June has become

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a quiet force, helping women not just survive,

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but start to find themselves again after everything

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changes. She also recently released her second

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book, Whispered Promises, a love story that stretches

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across decades, distances, and life's many turns.

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It's a beautiful reminder that love in all its

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forms can be both lasting and healing. So in

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today's episode, we talk about identity. loss,

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resilience, and the quiet strength that it takes

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to rebuild a life with purpose. June's story

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is one of grace, depth, and fierce love, and

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I'm honored to share it with you. So take a breath,

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wear something comforting, and join us for this

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meaningful conversation. June, welcome to the

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Percival Queens podcast. June, I know I gave

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you background. if you would like to add any

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color for the audience and if you wouldn't mind

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telling us about your son, Caleb. Yeah, so obviously

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I was in my late 20s when I had Caleb. Pregnancy

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was fine, going fine at first. Towards the end

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it kind of got a little shaky and I ended up

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having a complete placental abruption when I

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had Caleb. And obviously it wasn't caught, so

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I had a complete placental abruption. And when

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you have that placental abruption, your baby's

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not breathing. So when I had Caleb, they got

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him, you know, they saved him. Obviously I had

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lost like three and a half pints of blood. I

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ended up, obviously I was fine and I figured

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that we lived together. One of the biggest things

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with it was, you know, I had what society would

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call a normal child. And when he was born obviously

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because he had he wasn't breathing he had severe

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brain damage so my child that was was going to

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be society's norm is was actually special needs

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so it kind of shifts things from there so he

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had a lot of different different issues he had

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cerebral palsy which is you know everybody knows

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what that is and then he had microcephaly and

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a seizure disorder and cortical blindness he

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had like a whole bunch of stuff from that and

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the doctors because he did live they shipped

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him to an And basically they told us that, well,

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they didn't tell me because I was locked out,

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but told my husband at the time and my dad that

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if he lived through 24 hours, then he would live

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a while. But one night he would go to sleep and

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he wouldn't wake up. So we told you that. Yes,

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they told us that at the hospital. Well, they

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told them that I was out and we were at different

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hospitals. They were actually where they had

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to ship him. They put him what's called on a

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cooling blanket. Okay, basically a cooling blanket

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brings the baby's temperatures down to hypothermia

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levels and basically it's repairs their brains.

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It slows down their their Yeah, it's like you're

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like freezing and basically it helps repair the

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brain and because he was an infant when the when

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the brain damage happened your brain will Go

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around the damages in your brain if that makes

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sense yeah around appears around it so that's

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a little psychology yeah so anyway they told

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us that and for some reason i had ten in my mind

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i just figured it ten because he had so much

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brain damage so we just kind of started doing

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what. Parents do learn to have children. Parents,

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you know, with wheelchairs and feeding tubes

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and everything and going to his doctor visits

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every three months and everything. The night

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that the day before he had all his little doctor

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visits because he, you know, he had his, you

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know, his. eye doctor, his heart doctor, lung

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doctor, and just all these doctors. He went down

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in Shands and Gainesville, Florida. I love them.

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Went down there, got a clean bill of health,

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and came back. That night, he went to sleep.

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Everything was kind of normal, and we had to

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take what we call shift work. Because Caleb was

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the special needs kid that would wake up, one

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of the special needs kids that would wake up

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in the middle of the night. So, and then we had

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to change out his, you know, add food to his

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feeding tubes and stuff. And my ex -husband was

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on duty. That's what we called it. Right, right.

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You know, and he, I woke up to him screaming.

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I woke up and, you know, I ran downstairs and

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I'm like, what's going on? And he's like, Caleb's

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not breathing. And like, I think any parent,

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like when hearing that, like I couldn't fathom

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what he was saying to me. I'm like, are you joking?

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Like, you know, and it was just like, are you

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joking? That's the only thing I could tell him.

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He said, no. I ended up going downstairs and

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dial 911 and threw the phone down. Cause where

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we're from, if you dial 911 and don't answer

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and it's an open line, they come. And then I

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went into his room and I took him off of his

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bed and I started CPR on him. And I did CPR on

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him until obviously the EMS got here and we,

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they took him obviously and I've been in law

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enforcement for almost 20 years now and I knew

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everybody that was out here and I know the way

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things are worded when it's not good. Right.

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And here where I live, if a child dies, it has

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to be investigated. Makes sense. Even if it's

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not suspected. Right. And we were sitting here,

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we were trying to get ready to go and one of

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the officers that I knew said we have to wait

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for Alicia. and she was the investigator and

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I knew who she was. And I looked at him and he

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looked at me and I knew, I knew what that...

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Yeah. Yeah. And obviously, you know, we finally,

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I finally was like, hey, just let me sign something

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saying Alicia and you guys can stay in our house

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and we'll go. And they obviously let us do that.

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And we went to the hospital. And when we got

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there, a guy called my name I work with. And

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I told him that my son was just brought in. He

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looked at me. I looked at him. We knew what was

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going on. Obviously, my husband at the time had

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no idea still. I tried to explain to him in the

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car and he wasn't having it. So I just kind of

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let it be. And they shuffled us to a room. and

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the doctor came and said that they had done everything

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they could to save him and he just didn't live,

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he didn't survive. Autopsy when he came back,

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I guess one of my big things was I wanted to

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know what stopped. Was it his brain? Was it his

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heart? Was it his lungs stopped? When the autopsy

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came back and it was, you don't, we don't know.

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The only thing we can tell you is he passed away

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from the trauma, he endured. the years when he

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was born. There wasn't a particular catalyst

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at that point. Yeah, they couldn't tell us what

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it was. And that's kind of where my journey started,

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because I wanted that answer. I thought that

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that would give me some kind of closure, was

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that answer of what's... But I didn't have that.

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I couldn't... I know that was 11 years ago. Yeah,

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to 2012. Oh, longer than 11 years ago. That's

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right, 2012. I still am so sorry. what you went

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through as a parent is unimaginable. It's just

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absolutely unimaginable. And I know we had like

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talked beforehand, it's just, that's your heart

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living outside your body. And no matter how old

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they are, when they're out in that world, you

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can't protect them the same way. And that's always

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a parent's biggest fear. I mentioned to you as

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well, reading that part of the story in the beginning,

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was openly, openly physically crying because

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my daughter is going to be 19 and my son is going

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to be nine and I still check on them at night.

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Yeah, I still check on them and make sure they're

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they're breathing, you know, not like when they're

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babies, you do it all the time with their babies.

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I still do it, you know, like I still sit there

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and make sure you know, and my daughter has a

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giant loft bed and I walk up, walk up just because

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I can't see, you know, so I can't imagine that

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feeling and for anybody that has gone through

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that or will go through that, my heart just goes

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out. It goes out to you. This book, the title

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of your book, Mama, You Don't Heal, is both powerful

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and poignant. Before I go into my first kind

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of question for you about it, I do want to read

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a passage on page eight. So you say, I think

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we expect that we are one day going to wake up

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and just be okay, that there is a healing and

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we are going to go back to normal. back to the

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way it once was. I've never been good at sugarcoating

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anything, so I'm going to be honest. There is

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no healing from child loss. To even suggest that

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anyone would frame the term healing with child

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loss is ludicrous. Newsflash. I have said the

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obvious. Ladies, we don't heal. We learn to deal

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with our child loss. So I set out to figure out

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this healing. only to realize I had to figure

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out that there is no healing. It is instead about

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learning how to love life and rebuild it around

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your loss, which I have done and continue to

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do daily. I was a hot mess in my journey, not

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gonna lie. But my hope is to help you ladies

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down your path and in the journey you will now

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travel. So at this moment, all these years later,

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what does healing mean to you now? And how has

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that definition changed since the early days

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of your loss? I think I think in the early days

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of my loss, I thought that I had been through

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losses other than child loss, obviously. I always

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thought that you heal, you move on, and you know,

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you're going to be okay. And I guess in a way

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you do with other losses, you know, you have

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the funeral, you have the, you know, the wake

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or whatever you do, and it's done, you know,

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and you just move on. But like with child loss,

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I thought that was going to be the same way.

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That's exactly what's going to happen this time.

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When I was started out with it, I'm like, I don't

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know how I can do this. I don't know I don't

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know Throughout the journey where I thought that

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okay, I'm gonna be okay. I'm gonna heal and learn

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that okay Well, I'm not gonna heal from this

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what society would call heal and move on and

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be happy -go -lucky How can I deal with it? You

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know, like how can I learn to live a happy life?

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Cuz I don't want to be miserable And he wouldn't

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want you to be yeah, and I don't want to feel

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how deep and dark I was feeling so how do I do

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it and that's when I started doing everything

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that I you know, I did and I'm sure we can do

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it later, but And I learned later on in my life,

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loss, when it wasn't right after, you know, it

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was years down the road that, okay, I just got

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to learn how to deal with it and deal with my

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triggers that I have and deal with all of the

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things that are going to come up, like his birthday,

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his death date, you know, maybe a place that

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I go, maybe a smell, some woman it smells. Yes.

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You know, when he was, he would have been 16.

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you know driving he's not driving now or when

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he turned 13 I actually talked to his Caleb's

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dad my ex and we're like wow he would have been

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13 this year you know dealing with those certain

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days and trying to honor it right and that's

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what I learned later on is like okay I'll never

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accept that I'm going to heal from it but I had

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to learn how to deal with it and now going from

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I thought I was going to heal Now I know that

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I just need to deal with everything that comes

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in my path, I guess you can say. So with that

00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:07.200
being said, was there a specific moment or a

00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:09.179
turning point that led you to begin writing the

00:12:09.179 --> 00:12:12.039
book? Or did it just emerge slowly over time?

00:12:12.179 --> 00:12:15.659
I can remember when I was maybe a few months

00:12:15.659 --> 00:12:18.299
into my loss and just feeling everything I was

00:12:18.299 --> 00:12:20.740
feeling. I knew I wanted to write a book that

00:12:20.740 --> 00:12:23.029
soon. I wanted to write a book about it and I

00:12:23.029 --> 00:12:26.210
think it was a book about me with times. I guess

00:12:26.210 --> 00:12:28.169
back then it would have been more of like times

00:12:28.169 --> 00:12:31.090
with Caleb and just having those memories written

00:12:31.090 --> 00:12:33.230
down so I never forgot them. But I knew I wanted

00:12:33.230 --> 00:12:35.669
to write a book back then and I'm glad I waited.

00:12:36.070 --> 00:12:38.309
I'm really glad I waited because like I was so

00:12:38.309 --> 00:12:40.929
angry back then but you know I knew I wanted

00:12:40.929 --> 00:12:43.450
to write a book way back then but it would have

00:12:43.450 --> 00:12:45.429
been different if I would have wrote it way back

00:12:45.429 --> 00:12:50.419
then. And one of the guys that I actually work

00:12:50.419 --> 00:12:53.100
with, he passed away during COVID and I was with

00:12:53.100 --> 00:12:56.919
his mother and father and his wife and just talking

00:12:56.919 --> 00:12:58.899
to his mother because obviously I had already

00:12:58.899 --> 00:13:01.320
gone through child loss and I had already started

00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:03.759
my group. I was like, I'm just going to do it.

00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:07.159
And when I was up there in Washington, DC, actually,

00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:10.759
for the law enforcement memorial, I started writing.

00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:13.759
I wrote the first three chapters in that in the

00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:16.840
book when I was there, actually. And that was

00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:19.840
the time when I was talking to her and just she

00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:21.639
was going through so much that I had already

00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:23.639
been through. And I was like, no, this is it.

00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:25.820
I'm going to do it now. And that's when I decided,

00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:27.600
you know, there's two things about what you just

00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:30.809
said that I think about in any kind of. loss

00:13:30.809 --> 00:13:33.730
or grief, which runs the gamut, right? And I

00:13:33.730 --> 00:13:36.250
think that writing, whether it's a book, whether

00:13:36.250 --> 00:13:39.549
it's journaling, whatever it is, is such an amazing

00:13:39.549 --> 00:13:42.370
outlet, right? Because you can see the progression

00:13:42.370 --> 00:13:45.009
of the anger of the, and we'll talk about it

00:13:45.009 --> 00:13:48.600
later. the stages of grief and when you're ready

00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:51.139
and in your case as you can see sometimes it

00:13:51.139 --> 00:13:53.600
just falls into place like you're just ready

00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.019
at that point you know some people believe in

00:13:56.019 --> 00:13:57.960
higher power like i do and people just believe

00:13:57.960 --> 00:13:59.919
that that's just what happens and i believe sometimes

00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:02.700
these things just are ready at that moment like

00:14:02.700 --> 00:14:04.600
at that moment is when you're supposed to you're

00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:08.049
meant to do something Like, so that that makes

00:14:08.049 --> 00:14:10.470
complete sense to me. I want to talk a little

00:14:10.470 --> 00:14:12.970
bit about the grief, right, and the complexity

00:14:12.970 --> 00:14:15.250
of it. And I'm going to start with a passage

00:14:15.250 --> 00:14:19.129
or two from page 28 and 29. Like I said, I had

00:14:19.129 --> 00:14:21.210
so many of them. I was like, my ink was actually

00:14:21.210 --> 00:14:22.629
starting to run out. I had to switch pens. It

00:14:22.629 --> 00:14:24.929
was so funny. Not funny, but you know what I

00:14:24.929 --> 00:14:28.149
mean? Oh, yeah. so this says losing a child is

00:14:28.149 --> 00:14:31.090
a huge shock and remember when all of this happens

00:14:31.090 --> 00:14:33.710
our mind is not sure how to react our mind knows

00:14:33.710 --> 00:14:35.610
that it is an event that there needs to be a

00:14:35.610 --> 00:14:37.710
feeling assigned to it and it is trying to figure

00:14:37.710 --> 00:14:40.269
out what to feel in the first moments weeks and

00:14:40.269 --> 00:14:42.649
months into your child loss don't evaluate how

00:14:42.649 --> 00:14:45.029
you reacted i've spoken with mamas who have so

00:14:45.029 --> 00:14:46.629
much guilt wrapped around the fact that they

00:14:46.629 --> 00:14:49.629
didn't cry or they didn't do a particular thing

00:14:49.629 --> 00:14:51.690
right at the moment they found out they feel

00:14:51.690 --> 00:14:54.700
guilty they feel horrible that they did not react

00:14:54.700 --> 00:14:56.720
a certain way they feel they did not love their

00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:58.740
child enough or they weren't a good mom mama

00:14:58.740 --> 00:15:00.840
your mind is trying to process everything that's

00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:03.000
going on don't think you're not crying or being

00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.019
emotional has anything to do with the love for

00:15:05.019 --> 00:15:07.500
a child or the kind of mother you were it is

00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:11.000
just a reaction and nothing more mama if i can

00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:14.019
tell you anything it is to cry and grieve openly

00:15:14.019 --> 00:15:16.679
no one is judging you no one is thinking anything

00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:19.220
less of you and no one is worrying about anything

00:15:19.220 --> 00:15:21.740
but you It is okay to release every bit of the

00:15:21.740 --> 00:15:24.019
tears you have for your child. Don't feel obliged

00:15:24.019 --> 00:15:26.639
to hide and feel your true emotions alone, because

00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:28.820
when you do, this is where the loneliness starts.

00:15:29.340 --> 00:15:32.960
What I found so interesting and so deep about

00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:35.559
this specifically is I watch a lot of things

00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:37.720
like SVU, for example, right, which is one of

00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:39.200
my favorite shows. And you, of course, you're

00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:41.139
in law enforcement, so you can relate to this.

00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.740
There's always that feeling of, well, they must

00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:46.100
have some sort of guilt, someone who committed

00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:48.539
a crime. right or so because they didn't have

00:15:48.539 --> 00:15:52.259
a particular reaction right we told them their

00:15:52.259 --> 00:15:54.399
so and so got lost we told them so and so was

00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:56.320
not around or whatever the case may be or this

00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:58.240
person died and did you notice how they didn't

00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.759
cry they didn't react like a person who you know

00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:03.820
who would be in deep grief you know but not everybody

00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:06.600
feels the grief the same way especially initially

00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:09.960
so your book acknowledges the ongoing nature

00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:12.059
of the grief and the stages of grief which i

00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:14.080
just had mentioned and that it doesn't follow

00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:17.330
a timeline so How do you help other mothers sit

00:16:17.330 --> 00:16:19.250
with the discomfort of that truth while still

00:16:19.250 --> 00:16:21.090
encouraging them to move forward, especially

00:16:21.090 --> 00:16:23.570
when they feel like they didn't react appropriately

00:16:23.570 --> 00:16:26.429
in the beginning? Well, one thing I put in the

00:16:26.429 --> 00:16:30.070
book is my reaction. I was very stoic because

00:16:30.070 --> 00:16:32.289
you've got to remember I was in law enforcement

00:16:32.289 --> 00:16:35.450
and I knew everybody and no one had ever seen

00:16:35.450 --> 00:16:38.669
me get upset or reaction. I've always been very

00:16:38.669 --> 00:16:41.590
even keel, get it done and I thought that I had

00:16:41.590 --> 00:16:45.409
to hide it. And that was, that's probably the

00:16:45.409 --> 00:16:48.450
worst thing I could have done. But I think that

00:16:48.450 --> 00:16:51.990
I wanted, basically I wrote the book raw. You've

00:16:51.990 --> 00:16:55.029
read some of the stuff. It's very raw. And I

00:16:55.029 --> 00:16:58.250
wanted to know that, hey, there's somebody else.

00:16:58.330 --> 00:17:01.490
Like if you feel bad for not having a reaction,

00:17:01.610 --> 00:17:03.570
you know, when you found out, because I did not,

00:17:03.570 --> 00:17:07.109
I did not cry for, I mean, I went through the

00:17:07.109 --> 00:17:10.380
whole thing. I did. CPR my son i hate it you

00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:14.420
know me i did like all the pilot it's like. It

00:17:14.420 --> 00:17:17.579
was and you know i did not cry you know i don't

00:17:17.579 --> 00:17:20.279
think i lost it until i got home no i lost it

00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:22.339
when i saw my parents because they were crying

00:17:22.339 --> 00:17:26.000
and i just wanted people to know that it's not

00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:28.900
it's not something that. you know just because

00:17:28.900 --> 00:17:30.599
you don't react a certain way doesn't mean that

00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:32.680
you're gonna you know you're wrong for doing

00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:34.500
it and I wanted to write it raw so they know

00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:38.039
okay I'm not she's not sugarcoating it and I'm

00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:41.140
okay for the way I reacted and I think that when

00:17:41.140 --> 00:17:43.660
we start doing our loss and we start going through

00:17:43.660 --> 00:17:46.099
our loss we try to put every bit of guilt that

00:17:46.099 --> 00:17:48.259
we possibly can on a bad mom because I didn't

00:17:48.259 --> 00:17:50.299
do this on a bad mom because I didn't do that

00:17:50.299 --> 00:17:53.400
and I one of the biggest things I tell them is

00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:56.119
just stop you know just stop your slave is clean

00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:59.099
you know what I mean Like, you loved your child,

00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.599
you're going to go through this process, whatever

00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:03.940
you did, okay, it is what it is, you're being

00:18:03.940 --> 00:18:06.819
the best mom you could possibly be. You just

00:18:06.819 --> 00:18:09.319
gotta forgive yourself. If that's what it is,

00:18:09.500 --> 00:18:11.859
then just forgive yourself and move forward.

00:18:12.460 --> 00:18:15.619
Because for the most part, we think we're bad

00:18:15.619 --> 00:18:19.019
parents, but our children adore us. You know

00:18:19.019 --> 00:18:21.059
what I mean? But I think, I think the best parents

00:18:21.059 --> 00:18:23.519
think that they're the worst parents. So I guess

00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:25.440
that's it. That's one of the biggest things with

00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:27.059
it is, is like I try to tell them, okay, you

00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:29.099
got to stop, you got to stop with that. And I,

00:18:29.099 --> 00:18:31.279
and I did it. And then like, I use examples in

00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:33.680
the book because I do, I did it a lot, you know,

00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:36.880
I'm like the, the walking way not to do it. Like

00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:39.619
I'm that person, but you know, you know, it was

00:18:39.619 --> 00:18:41.980
a harder way for me to walk, but I hope that

00:18:41.980 --> 00:18:44.539
being so raw and being so open with it. that

00:18:44.539 --> 00:18:46.700
I could help them. And I guess that's where I

00:18:46.700 --> 00:18:48.599
go with it, you know, hey, I did the same thing,

00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:52.460
but it's okay, I still love my son. And you did

00:18:52.460 --> 00:18:54.160
mention that later on in the book as well. You

00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.220
do mention that, you know, sometimes again, with

00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:58.079
the stages of grief, because, you know, you mentioned

00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:01.059
the stages of grief. And I think there's normally,

00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.380
it's the seven stages of grief, I believe, right.

00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:05.359
And I've talked about that on other episodes

00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:09.930
as well, because I had basically the death of

00:19:09.930 --> 00:19:12.369
a marriage, you know, I'm saying partner betrayal,

00:19:12.690 --> 00:19:15.730
trauma, PTSD, things that I never in my life

00:19:15.730 --> 00:19:18.549
thought I would go through. And I remember still

00:19:18.549 --> 00:19:21.930
talking years later, I still at times find myself

00:19:21.930 --> 00:19:23.650
again, we talk about the healing that is not

00:19:23.650 --> 00:19:26.730
linear, right? You can be doing great. And so

00:19:26.730 --> 00:19:30.049
I can't imagine that any part of you could ever

00:19:30.049 --> 00:19:32.650
feel like you are healed from something that.

00:19:33.020 --> 00:19:34.660
traumatic, right? Just the whole experience in

00:19:34.660 --> 00:19:37.039
general. And later in the book, while you're

00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:39.119
talking about the stages of grief, you also talk

00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:41.920
about how moms, some moms and not just moms,

00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:43.759
of course, parents in general can say all those

00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:45.619
things like, I'm a terrible mom. I can't believe

00:19:45.619 --> 00:19:47.779
this happened. What did I do to my kid? I shouldn't

00:19:47.779 --> 00:19:49.779
have let them buy the motorcycle. I shouldn't

00:19:49.779 --> 00:19:52.180
have let them, you know, jump on the trampoline,

00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:54.420
whatever it may have been, everything in hindsight,

00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:56.259
you're going to go back and say, it's my fault.

00:19:56.460 --> 00:19:58.960
It's my fault. When the reality is You have to

00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.079
let your children grow. You have to let them

00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:03.000
be who they're supposed to be. And you have to

00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:04.799
let, you know, hopefully you're able to make

00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:06.079
what they're able to make all the right decisions.

00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:08.059
And then sometimes, unfortunately, nature has

00:20:08.059 --> 00:20:11.140
another has another for whatever reason, unfair

00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:14.119
as it is, you know, you mentioned something that

00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:16.299
brought me back to something in my life back

00:20:16.299 --> 00:20:18.960
in September or so my daughter, she had just

00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:20.920
started driving about six months before I get

00:20:20.920 --> 00:20:22.279
a call at seven o 'clock in the morning. She's

00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:24.569
on her way to school. and I get a call from a

00:20:24.569 --> 00:20:26.309
number. I don't know what it is. I'm sleeping.

00:20:26.490 --> 00:20:28.690
I'm at home and I didn't hear. I didn't even

00:20:28.690 --> 00:20:30.369
hear the phone and I'm getting that. I'm getting

00:20:30.369 --> 00:20:32.509
a text message. I'm getting cold. Like what is

00:20:32.509 --> 00:20:34.009
going on from these numbers? I don't recognize

00:20:34.009 --> 00:20:36.029
and I finally get through to my daughter. She

00:20:36.029 --> 00:20:39.299
had gotten a severe accident. one of the things

00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:41.000
that, you know, and it made me think about it

00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:42.619
because you talk about the motorcycle just as

00:20:42.619 --> 00:20:44.799
an example, right? These calls you pray that

00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:46.220
you never have to deal with, right, as a parent.

00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:49.119
And thank God, I mean, by the grace of God, that

00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:51.500
the car was totaled, but she had just a couple

00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:53.619
scratches. Thank God for the seatbelt and things

00:20:53.619 --> 00:20:56.089
like that. And I remember me. Just like you had

00:20:56.089 --> 00:20:58.150
said, I thought about this, that autopilot, that

00:20:58.150 --> 00:21:00.190
numbness. My only thought was there was no, there

00:21:00.190 --> 00:21:02.529
was no reaction other than I got to get to her.

00:21:02.789 --> 00:21:05.410
I got to know where she is. What is my next move?

00:21:05.609 --> 00:21:07.650
There was nothing. We're at the hospital. I couldn't

00:21:07.650 --> 00:21:09.609
even like, I saw her. She was okay. Even then

00:21:09.609 --> 00:21:11.369
I didn't go grab her because I didn't know, you

00:21:11.369 --> 00:21:13.289
know, like there was just so much going on. I'm

00:21:13.289 --> 00:21:14.930
like, she's okay. She's there. We're here. We

00:21:14.930 --> 00:21:17.490
leave the ER a couple hours later. We pulled

00:21:17.490 --> 00:21:20.349
into my parking spot in front of my house, me

00:21:20.349 --> 00:21:22.420
and her. I look over at her. and the floodgates

00:21:22.420 --> 00:21:25.119
hit. It was that adrenaline that finally came

00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:27.920
down. And I realized my kid could have been gone

00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.900
split second. And I cried for about three days.

00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:34.119
Yeah, I cried for about three days. And then

00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:36.980
we had to go and get the rest of our stuff. The

00:21:36.980 --> 00:21:39.160
car was towed to a lot. And before they impounded

00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:40.819
it, we had to go get whatever the stuff she had

00:21:40.819 --> 00:21:43.039
in there. And I go with her. And this car is

00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:44.619
the first time we've seen it up close, even her.

00:21:44.660 --> 00:21:47.079
She was very viscerally like didn't understand

00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:50.799
how she was OK. Yeah. And I just again, I'm in

00:21:52.100 --> 00:21:54.140
Let's just get the stuff. It's raining outside.

00:21:54.339 --> 00:21:55.900
Let's get whatever stuff. And I'm in the car

00:21:55.900 --> 00:21:57.900
with glass everywhere. And I'm just trying to

00:21:57.900 --> 00:21:59.500
get her little pictures, you know, little teenagers

00:21:59.500 --> 00:22:01.599
car, you know, her little, her little things.

00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:04.460
And I get her home and we get home and my ex

00:22:04.460 --> 00:22:07.220
-husband comes to the house and I'm telling him

00:22:07.220 --> 00:22:09.259
about it. All of a sudden in my head, I'm not

00:22:09.259 --> 00:22:12.650
picturing the car. And there was a little there

00:22:12.650 --> 00:22:14.089
was a picture of her and her friend, like, you

00:22:14.089 --> 00:22:15.410
know, the pictures from those machines, you have

00:22:15.410 --> 00:22:17.849
the four pictures that grow. And it was under

00:22:17.849 --> 00:22:20.549
it had been under the driver seat. It had been

00:22:20.549 --> 00:22:22.269
pinned. And it was something I grabbed that.

00:22:22.269 --> 00:22:24.190
And I'm getting a flashback and I'm thinking

00:22:24.190 --> 00:22:26.710
about that. And I start to ball. And he's like,

00:22:26.789 --> 00:22:28.549
what's wrong? I said, I just realized there are

00:22:28.549 --> 00:22:30.849
parents that have to do that and they don't get

00:22:30.849 --> 00:22:33.990
to come home with their kid. Yeah. So the idea.

00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:37.599
that we're supposed to have some kind of reaction

00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:40.900
right away is really sometimes a hard one to

00:22:40.900 --> 00:22:42.680
sit with because whatever the outcome may be,

00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:45.740
there's always that autopilot, that numbness

00:22:45.740 --> 00:22:48.359
you feel that at some point. for some people

00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:50.700
is going to hit you in a way you may not realize,

00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:52.940
you know, and I had to force her. She didn't

00:22:52.940 --> 00:22:54.660
want to get help for it. I was like, you need

00:22:54.660 --> 00:22:56.700
to accept this. You need to work through it.

00:22:56.700 --> 00:22:58.619
There's going to be a lot of feelings of guilt

00:22:58.619 --> 00:23:00.799
and all kinds of other stuff too. And eventually

00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:03.859
she had a full on anxiety attack months later.

00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:05.779
That just all, it was a lot of stuff that happened,

00:23:05.819 --> 00:23:09.180
you know? So I tell that story purposely because

00:23:09.180 --> 00:23:15.210
I really emphasize what you say that we whether

00:23:15.210 --> 00:23:18.950
parents or anything else, sometimes there's no

00:23:18.950 --> 00:23:22.730
right way to do anything in those moments. And

00:23:22.730 --> 00:23:24.289
you don't know how you're going to react in those

00:23:24.289 --> 00:23:26.390
moments. And God bless you for getting through

00:23:26.390 --> 00:23:28.470
that. I know we were just talking about healing

00:23:28.470 --> 00:23:30.789
and not being linear. And you mentioned that

00:23:30.789 --> 00:23:34.200
healing doesn't mean forgetting. Yeah, how can

00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:36.160
mothers honor their children's memories? I know

00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:38.779
you talk about you wanted to make their own legacy,

00:23:38.819 --> 00:23:41.099
right? So how can you honor your child's memory

00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:43.400
while still making room for the joy and purpose

00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:47.059
and growth in your own life? Yeah, that's it's

00:23:47.059 --> 00:23:49.700
kind of complex, but I'll go through it I'm pretty

00:23:49.700 --> 00:23:52.140
I'll try to go through fast But I guess I guess

00:23:52.140 --> 00:23:54.519
I got to the point in my journey where I knew

00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:57.309
I didn't want him to be forgotten but I didn't

00:23:57.309 --> 00:24:00.730
know how to do it. And I guess the way that I

00:24:00.730 --> 00:24:02.670
started to look at it as I was going through

00:24:02.670 --> 00:24:08.710
it more is he dies the day that he died unless

00:24:08.710 --> 00:24:11.569
I do something to keep his memory alive. And

00:24:11.569 --> 00:24:13.769
that's where I say that you have to keep their

00:24:13.769 --> 00:24:17.109
legacy alive. Because us as mothers and, you

00:24:17.109 --> 00:24:18.930
know, a father or who else, we're the only ones

00:24:18.930 --> 00:24:20.589
that are going to keep their memory alive. We're

00:24:20.589 --> 00:24:22.589
the ones that know the best stories, you know.

00:24:23.069 --> 00:24:25.710
We're the ones that know everything about them.

00:24:25.809 --> 00:24:28.289
And I guess that's that's where that comes from.

00:24:28.349 --> 00:24:30.670
You have to create a legacy because I don't want

00:24:30.670 --> 00:24:34.630
to say that the day, you know, March 20th, you

00:24:34.630 --> 00:24:38.049
know, of 2012 is the day that he died. And that's

00:24:38.049 --> 00:24:40.190
it. no more and I didn't want to live like that

00:24:40.190 --> 00:24:42.049
and I don't think I could have lived like that

00:24:42.049 --> 00:24:43.829
you know putting them in a box and just pushing

00:24:43.829 --> 00:24:47.269
them away you know so the way that I did it was

00:24:47.269 --> 00:24:49.910
like for a while I would you know I would always

00:24:49.910 --> 00:24:52.390
go to the grave on his birthday and his death

00:24:52.390 --> 00:24:54.349
day and well I didn't go those days it was usually

00:24:54.349 --> 00:24:56.029
around those days because I didn't want to go

00:24:56.029 --> 00:24:58.269
that day it's just sad but you know I'd bring

00:24:58.269 --> 00:25:01.789
a balloon or whatever and then um as time went

00:25:01.789 --> 00:25:04.390
on obviously I got to be able to wear I was I

00:25:04.390 --> 00:25:06.630
was able to talk to him and then you know he

00:25:06.630 --> 00:25:09.769
you know people I know so many people that know

00:25:09.769 --> 00:25:12.289
Caleb, but never met him a day in his life now.

00:25:12.650 --> 00:25:14.910
And a lot of people that I was friends with that

00:25:14.910 --> 00:25:17.670
knew Caleb, I'm not with anymore. You know, and

00:25:17.670 --> 00:25:19.509
you meet new people and you know, it goes in

00:25:19.509 --> 00:25:21.869
and out. You know how friendships go as we get

00:25:21.869 --> 00:25:26.079
older, but you know. I keep his memory alive

00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:28.599
by talking about him, obviously by the book.

00:25:29.500 --> 00:25:33.019
There's thousands of women that have bought that

00:25:33.019 --> 00:25:35.539
book that know my son now. Obviously, you know

00:25:35.539 --> 00:25:39.660
my son now from how I saved him. I wanted to

00:25:39.660 --> 00:25:42.019
do it that way, and I wanted to share my story

00:25:42.019 --> 00:25:44.559
to help other women. That's how I honor him,

00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:48.559
but there's so many different ways. there's a

00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:51.039
lady and I can't think of her name she does a

00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:54.799
butterfly release every year so everybody pays

00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:57.720
like you know whatever it is and they do it a

00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:00.299
certain day and they release a butterfly and

00:26:00.299 --> 00:26:02.579
say the child's name or you know there's people

00:26:02.579 --> 00:26:07.420
that do fundraisers they do I mean fundraisers

00:26:07.420 --> 00:26:10.059
um there's people I've seen that they have they

00:26:10.059 --> 00:26:13.599
have tattoos yeah I mean there's just and I and

00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:17.009
I actually have one on my leg of I had I just

00:26:17.009 --> 00:26:20.390
got it changed, but it's a it's a like a pocket

00:26:20.390 --> 00:26:22.910
watch looking and it has this time of death and

00:26:22.910 --> 00:26:26.009
You know people do stuff like that that there's

00:26:26.009 --> 00:26:27.970
just so many things you can do out there Light

00:26:27.970 --> 00:26:31.109
a candle instead of a place setting for them

00:26:31.109 --> 00:26:33.470
during the holidays I guess like the big thing

00:26:33.470 --> 00:26:36.970
for me is instead of remembering the death date,

00:26:36.970 --> 00:26:40.650
which we always remember The last memory you

00:26:40.650 --> 00:26:42.829
have of a person. Of course. If you think about

00:26:42.829 --> 00:26:45.329
it. And the last memory you have of that person

00:26:45.329 --> 00:26:48.329
is the death. So instead of that, I always tell

00:26:48.329 --> 00:26:51.029
people to remember the funny times, the good

00:26:51.029 --> 00:26:53.190
times, like we took Caleb to the Bahamas, especially

00:26:53.190 --> 00:26:56.009
his child to the Bahamas, you know, and Caleb,

00:26:56.009 --> 00:26:58.690
you know, he went and did this and he played

00:26:58.690 --> 00:27:00.630
in the pool, you know, I say played in the pool.

00:27:01.170 --> 00:27:03.309
But, you know, I like to remember those times,

00:27:03.609 --> 00:27:05.630
the time it up when they said he couldn't instead.

00:27:05.910 --> 00:27:08.309
And that's what I try to tell them to do too,

00:27:08.309 --> 00:27:11.369
is like honor them by the good times and maybe

00:27:11.369 --> 00:27:13.450
the funny times if you had a child that was older

00:27:13.450 --> 00:27:16.190
and not that death date because our mind is going

00:27:16.190 --> 00:27:19.509
to tell us when we go, Caleb, we're going to

00:27:19.509 --> 00:27:21.569
think of the last time. You got to kind of train

00:27:21.569 --> 00:27:23.609
your mind not to think about the last time, remember

00:27:23.609 --> 00:27:26.930
the good times and not the death. Because obviously,

00:27:27.589 --> 00:27:30.190
that's final if you remember the death. In any

00:27:30.190 --> 00:27:31.769
direction, that's traumatic, right? Like, you

00:27:31.769 --> 00:27:35.069
don't want to have that traumatic memory and

00:27:35.069 --> 00:27:37.730
those moments and the what ifs and all those

00:27:37.730 --> 00:27:41.329
because then I think that's harder to move from

00:27:41.329 --> 00:27:43.089
and to do better from when all you think about

00:27:43.089 --> 00:27:46.319
is the worst the worst day of your life right

00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:48.779
i think that that will always be the worst day

00:27:48.779 --> 00:27:51.599
of my life i can't imagine and i definitely couldn't

00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:54.759
imagine it would it wouldn't be i know we talked

00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:58.799
about before and and i want to just i want to

00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:00.720
preface this by saying to the audience because

00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:02.200
i know there's always people that have something

00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:06.720
to say we are that we are not comparing um what

00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:09.640
i'm about to say to the loss of a two -year -old

00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:11.880
a nine -year -old god forbid a 16 -year -old

00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:15.769
a 35 -year -old right But when you lose a child

00:28:15.769 --> 00:28:19.349
at any stage, there's always, because you have

00:28:19.349 --> 00:28:22.130
that hope. And I mentioned to you earlier, before

00:28:22.130 --> 00:28:24.910
my son, I had lost the pregnancy. And I remember

00:28:24.910 --> 00:28:26.950
at that time, I was only in my early 30s. And

00:28:26.950 --> 00:28:32.750
I remember at that time, surprised at how much

00:28:32.750 --> 00:28:38.190
I hurt from it. Yeah. I say this story because

00:28:38.190 --> 00:28:41.599
we... have moments where people try to think

00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:44.579
they're going to fix your grief with well -meaning

00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:47.079
words, but they end up hurtful. And I remember

00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:50.660
being actually sick from it, from the hurt of

00:28:50.660 --> 00:28:53.180
it, not realizing I was going to have that reaction.

00:28:53.299 --> 00:28:56.720
And I didn't realize I wanted to have had another

00:28:56.720 --> 00:28:59.099
baby that bad. That it, you know, there's just

00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:00.700
things you don't know until it got forbidden

00:29:00.700 --> 00:29:04.200
happens, right? I had a coworker. a boss at the

00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:06.619
time. And nobody had known, obviously, I wasn't

00:29:06.619 --> 00:29:08.680
telling anybody my business, but I just for weeks

00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:11.500
afterwards, I was not myself. So she knew something

00:29:11.500 --> 00:29:13.400
was off. And she said, she brings me and she

00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:15.960
said, Teresa, she was like, what's going on?

00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:19.259
So I came out and I told her and in her well

00:29:19.259 --> 00:29:22.259
-meaning way, she says, well, at least you have

00:29:22.259 --> 00:29:25.319
your daughter. And I said, yeah, I guess you're

00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:28.500
right. And I understand what she was trying to

00:29:28.500 --> 00:29:31.240
do. Yeah, right. I adore to this. I adore my

00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:33.319
daughter. She's my life. It was me and her. It

00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:35.839
was always me and her. Right. But that doesn't

00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:38.900
negate that loss, that grief, that feeling of

00:29:38.900 --> 00:29:42.160
the hope, you know, the love you already have,

00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:46.720
you know, and the idea that you're now have to

00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:48.839
code switch immediately. You know what I'm saying?

00:29:49.220 --> 00:29:53.240
And so how do you navigate even now, maybe moments

00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:55.299
where people don't maybe don't know what else

00:29:55.299 --> 00:29:57.980
to say, they say something that kind of still

00:29:57.980 --> 00:30:01.460
hits you viscerally. When it first happened and

00:30:01.460 --> 00:30:03.599
I can still remember this to the day because

00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:06.740
obviously I knew the coroner too and I had to

00:30:06.740 --> 00:30:10.240
get you know you have to get like the death certificate.

00:30:10.660 --> 00:30:12.680
I had to get something I don't think it maybe

00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:14.640
it was the death certificates from the coroner

00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:18.359
and I can remember him telling me well you couldn't

00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.519
and he knew Caleb he was like well you couldn't

00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:22.500
have done that the rest of your life. What do

00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:24.339
you mean? That was my that was my son, you know,

00:30:24.420 --> 00:30:26.640
and I can remember so mad about that, you know,

00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:29.019
just like, how could someone say something like

00:30:29.019 --> 00:30:31.819
that, you know? And, you know, oh, at least you

00:30:31.819 --> 00:30:33.839
can have more children. That's another that was

00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:35.839
the other thing she had to me. Thank you. She

00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:37.119
said the same thing. Well, you could you're young.

00:30:37.220 --> 00:30:40.640
You can always have more. And I'm like, and it's

00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:42.759
different. You know, you, you kind of said that

00:30:42.759 --> 00:30:45.799
it doesn't like we either depending on what age

00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:47.640
they are, we grieve what they could have been

00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:49.619
and not knowing what they could have been. And

00:30:49.619 --> 00:30:51.599
then if they're older, you grieve all the times

00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:54.359
you have what had with them. It's just, it's,

00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:57.160
it's, it's the same gist, but back then it used

00:30:57.160 --> 00:30:59.960
to get me really mad. But as I started going

00:30:59.960 --> 00:31:02.380
through and obviously it's been a long time now,

00:31:02.380 --> 00:31:05.279
but people don't know what to say and they want

00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:09.059
to try to say something to help you. And they

00:31:09.059 --> 00:31:11.220
mean, I've noticed from a lot. of people, they

00:31:11.220 --> 00:31:13.839
don't mean anything from it. And now, you know,

00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:16.660
I just, I just shake it off or whatever. But

00:31:16.660 --> 00:31:18.839
those comments, especially when you're first

00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:20.440
going through it, it makes you just so angry.

00:31:20.539 --> 00:31:23.960
God makes you angry. But as you've gone on, I

00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:26.119
just, I know now that people don't know what

00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:28.500
to say, but they're trying to, like you said,

00:31:28.700 --> 00:31:30.480
fix it. They're trying to make you feel better

00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:33.160
and they mean nothing by it because the people

00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:35.420
that would say something snotty to you about

00:31:35.420 --> 00:31:37.700
anything in life, when it comes to child loss,

00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:39.660
they will, you won't even hear from them. This

00:31:39.660 --> 00:31:42.309
is true. They just don't know what to say and

00:31:42.309 --> 00:31:43.849
they're just like, whatever, you know, and they

00:31:43.849 --> 00:31:45.849
go the other direction. I've noticed that. I

00:31:45.849 --> 00:31:48.829
had a lot. I noticed that a lot, but now I'm

00:31:48.829 --> 00:31:51.490
fine. I'm just like, I had to realize that they

00:31:51.490 --> 00:31:52.890
don't know what to say. So they're trying to

00:31:52.890 --> 00:31:54.890
make it right. And, you know, I kind of shake

00:31:54.890 --> 00:31:57.069
my head or, you know, depending on if I need

00:31:57.069 --> 00:31:59.569
to answer in this conversation or I just tell

00:31:59.569 --> 00:32:02.529
them, you know, thank you or, you know, some

00:32:02.529 --> 00:32:04.329
people say, well, at least you have your daughter.

00:32:04.650 --> 00:32:06.490
Like you were talking about, at least now you

00:32:06.490 --> 00:32:08.549
have Bella is my daughter's name. And I'm like,

00:32:08.549 --> 00:32:11.410
yeah, you know, I do have her. she saved me and

00:32:11.410 --> 00:32:13.869
you know I say stuff like that and kind of veer

00:32:13.869 --> 00:32:16.990
away from the subject but I think as you go along

00:32:16.990 --> 00:32:20.049
and you hear the crazy comments that you hear

00:32:20.049 --> 00:32:21.930
you just kind of are like they don't know what

00:32:21.930 --> 00:32:24.029
to say and I had to realize they don't know what

00:32:24.029 --> 00:32:27.250
to say it's okay they're trying to be well intentioned

00:32:27.250 --> 00:32:29.190
just don't know how to just don't know how to

00:32:29.190 --> 00:32:31.710
approach it right yeah I mean it doesn't make

00:32:31.710 --> 00:32:33.349
it easier because sometimes still you're just

00:32:33.349 --> 00:32:35.990
gonna like completely say that but yeah you know

00:32:35.990 --> 00:32:38.789
you just kind of just kind of go with it. Tell

00:32:38.789 --> 00:32:42.769
me what you think is more important, community

00:32:42.769 --> 00:32:46.109
or isolation during a time like you went through.

00:32:46.690 --> 00:32:48.970
Yeah, depends on your personality. And I'm a

00:32:48.970 --> 00:32:52.009
big, big person that believes in your personality

00:32:52.009 --> 00:32:55.630
is going to kind of be how you grieve, your personality

00:32:55.630 --> 00:32:57.289
is going to kind of veer you towards your grief

00:32:57.289 --> 00:33:00.140
and I'm really big with personalities, but I

00:33:00.140 --> 00:33:03.400
am an introvert. So everybody, all the ways they

00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:06.500
tell you to heal is go to group therapy, go talk

00:33:06.500 --> 00:33:09.339
to people about all that, watch children, go

00:33:09.339 --> 00:33:12.920
to a therapist and individual, a therapist individually.

00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:16.099
I wasn't going to do that, you know? So I had,

00:33:16.259 --> 00:33:18.180
I, that's why I did all the therapy myself. I

00:33:18.180 --> 00:33:20.279
read all about it all by myself and my lovely,

00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.960
but that's how I grieved. I didn't want to be

00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:25.740
around anybody. My ex -husband, he wanted the

00:33:25.740 --> 00:33:28.359
community. He wanted the togetherness. So we

00:33:28.359 --> 00:33:30.640
grieve totally different. So I think it depends

00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:33.299
on the person and it depends on your personality

00:33:33.299 --> 00:33:36.599
too. For me, I'm more, I internalize it and I

00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:39.559
have to analyze it and I have to really sit back

00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:42.779
and think about it where other people want that

00:33:42.779 --> 00:33:45.099
group. That's how they're extroverts. That's

00:33:45.099 --> 00:33:47.319
how they strive. You know, that's how they thrive

00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:50.599
in life is my help from others. So I really believe

00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:53.240
it. Depends on your personality and but for me

00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:56.180
I wasn't happening. I was I was not going to

00:33:56.180 --> 00:33:59.019
do the group therapy I was not gonna go I had

00:33:59.019 --> 00:34:01.400
people come over my house like tons of people

00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:04.079
I still don't even know but it wasn't just me

00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:07.079
and at first I felt bad and I won't get there

00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.360
But then it was like no, I gotta do this myself.

00:34:10.420 --> 00:34:13.369
That's another thing you feel guilty You feel

00:34:13.369 --> 00:34:15.650
guilty and you feel like you oh you feel like

00:34:15.650 --> 00:34:18.949
you owe people to because you feel like oh they're

00:34:18.949 --> 00:34:21.750
they're reaching out i have to owe them the courtesy

00:34:21.750 --> 00:34:25.289
of acknowledging it right yeah and it was it's.

00:34:25.340 --> 00:34:28.460
It's impossible. And for me, the best thing for

00:34:28.460 --> 00:34:32.199
me to do was to get in my little bubble and be

00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:34.780
by myself and analyze everything. I did have

00:34:34.780 --> 00:34:37.019
my little miniature dogs in, but, you know, just

00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:40.139
sit there and analyze everything myself. That's

00:34:40.139 --> 00:34:42.380
all the comfort you needed. Yeah, it was, man.

00:34:42.500 --> 00:34:45.139
That dog was like awesome. But, you know, that's

00:34:45.139 --> 00:34:47.079
how I grew. That's how I did it. That's how I

00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:49.219
dealt with it. And I wanted to learn for myself.

00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:50.780
I didn't want anybody telling me how I should

00:34:50.780 --> 00:34:53.179
feel. My ex -husband was differently. He needed

00:34:53.179 --> 00:34:56.750
that. he needed the people there. So I think

00:34:56.750 --> 00:34:58.969
the easiest answer is that it's going to depend

00:34:58.969 --> 00:35:01.369
on your personality. It really truthfully is.

00:35:01.489 --> 00:35:02.869
I always say when we think of myself though,

00:35:02.949 --> 00:35:05.409
because I call myself an introverted extrovert.

00:35:06.010 --> 00:35:08.869
Like it depends on the situation, depends on

00:35:08.869 --> 00:35:11.190
who I'm with, the time, it depends on everything.

00:35:11.469 --> 00:35:14.949
When my household completely fell apart in the

00:35:14.949 --> 00:35:17.650
past couple of years, in the beginning I tried

00:35:17.650 --> 00:35:22.469
to keep it mostly House there was only very few

00:35:22.469 --> 00:35:26.510
people i disclose to and i had really not two

00:35:26.510 --> 00:35:30.239
weeks before all of them. discovery, that's what

00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:31.800
they call it. I had said, you know what, I'm

00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:32.900
going to go back to therapy because there's some

00:35:32.900 --> 00:35:35.599
stuff I need to work through, right? And then

00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:38.760
two weeks later, no exaggeration, my world fell

00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:41.199
apart in obviously a different way. And I remember

00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:44.420
it spending the next two years, me and my therapist,

00:35:44.500 --> 00:35:46.420
you know, like it was the one -to -one and that

00:35:46.420 --> 00:35:48.860
is what helps me. And then, you know, slowly,

00:35:48.980 --> 00:35:51.440
like I was, you know, the people closest to me,

00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:53.639
you know, and it wasn't until the podcast that

00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:56.019
I really start to talk and have other people

00:35:56.019 --> 00:35:57.920
know what was going on because it's the same

00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:00.559
thing. It's like, it depends on you as a person,

00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:03.320
what you're feeling in that moment. And not therapies,

00:36:03.780 --> 00:36:06.500
not for everybody. Groups, I can, I know it sounds

00:36:06.500 --> 00:36:08.059
similar to say, I can't stay in groups sometimes.

00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:10.239
You know, I almost feel like to me sometimes

00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:13.900
it's more of a downer than it is helping me.

00:36:14.010 --> 00:36:16.630
Right. And other times I feel guilty. Well, I

00:36:16.630 --> 00:36:18.250
should I feel so guilty because that person's

00:36:18.250 --> 00:36:20.010
was so much worse than mine. And you know what

00:36:20.010 --> 00:36:21.829
I mean? Oh, well, yours couldn't be that bad

00:36:21.829 --> 00:36:23.590
because look what they've survived. You see what

00:36:23.590 --> 00:36:25.710
I'm saying? And I think sometimes we we don't

00:36:25.710 --> 00:36:28.110
understand that pain is relative, right? It's

00:36:28.110 --> 00:36:31.210
all relative to you and your experiences in life,

00:36:31.210 --> 00:36:33.690
you know, and sometimes group therapy, people

00:36:33.690 --> 00:36:37.269
don't get out of it what the idea of it is. So

00:36:37.269 --> 00:36:39.889
handling that really is just unique, as you say,

00:36:39.889 --> 00:36:43.210
to each person. You know, many women lose a sense

00:36:43.210 --> 00:36:46.050
of themselves in motherhood. We all do, even

00:36:46.050 --> 00:36:48.230
without the trauma. After such a profound loss,

00:36:48.429 --> 00:36:50.789
how did you begin reconnecting with yourself?

00:36:52.230 --> 00:36:55.369
Well, that's also very complicated. Obviously,

00:36:55.369 --> 00:36:57.670
I had my loss and my grief that I was going through.

00:36:58.309 --> 00:37:00.469
Okay. Well, also, when I was going through my

00:37:00.469 --> 00:37:03.590
loss, my grief, I was in a very, very dark place.

00:37:04.150 --> 00:37:07.570
And I mentioned it in my book, I never came out

00:37:07.570 --> 00:37:11.190
and said I wanted to kill myself. But if something

00:37:11.190 --> 00:37:13.130
happened, and obviously I'm in law enforcement

00:37:13.130 --> 00:37:15.329
now, if something happened that would be okay,

00:37:15.630 --> 00:37:19.170
you know? And I did a lot of stuff that I shouldn't

00:37:19.170 --> 00:37:21.010
have done. I could have got someone really, really

00:37:21.010 --> 00:37:23.449
hurt or myself hurt. But when I was in that dark

00:37:23.449 --> 00:37:25.739
place, I'm trying to deal with my grief. But

00:37:25.739 --> 00:37:28.579
then all those little black, dark demons that

00:37:28.579 --> 00:37:31.280
I had didn't like the person I was. I shouldn't

00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:33.420
have acted like that. I should be a better person

00:37:33.420 --> 00:37:35.860
at this. I should be more, you know, wanting

00:37:35.860 --> 00:37:38.559
to do more in my life. And all, I was fighting

00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:41.599
all that darkness too at the same time, you know.

00:37:41.619 --> 00:37:43.539
And you would think that it's just your grief

00:37:43.539 --> 00:37:45.139
you're dealing with, but you're dealing with

00:37:45.139 --> 00:37:47.219
all the, all the stuff in your past that you're

00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:50.239
not proud of. And not that I was like a horrible

00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:53.199
person or anything, but like I still, I did a

00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:55.429
lot of stuff that I didn't. I didn't want to

00:37:55.429 --> 00:37:58.869
be that person anymore. So I can remember years

00:37:58.869 --> 00:38:01.210
down in my life, I was sitting on the couch with

00:38:01.210 --> 00:38:03.070
that same dachshund again. And I was like, I

00:38:03.070 --> 00:38:04.969
don't want to live like this anymore, you know?

00:38:05.429 --> 00:38:09.010
And when I lost Caleb, I was 31 years old. And

00:38:09.010 --> 00:38:12.150
I'm like, I don't want to live 30, 40, 50, 60

00:38:12.150 --> 00:38:15.329
more years feeling like this. And I had to make

00:38:15.329 --> 00:38:17.730
that decision. And once I made that decision,

00:38:17.750 --> 00:38:20.650
I decided that I'm not going back. I'm not doing

00:38:20.650 --> 00:38:23.809
this. And it was just baby steps. At first, I

00:38:23.809 --> 00:38:26.469
started I started a master's degree program.

00:38:26.630 --> 00:38:28.849
I did all the crazy, stupid stuff you're not

00:38:28.849 --> 00:38:31.150
supposed to do when you're grieving, but I started

00:38:31.150 --> 00:38:34.449
a master's degree program that was forensic psychology.

00:38:34.690 --> 00:38:36.530
And I started learning about the criminal mind,

00:38:36.630 --> 00:38:39.170
but... the mind just started interesting me.

00:38:39.389 --> 00:38:41.570
And that's where I got to the therapy stuff.

00:38:41.710 --> 00:38:43.150
That's where I was like, oh, wait a minute, I

00:38:43.150 --> 00:38:46.110
can trick my mind. You know, and I started that

00:38:46.110 --> 00:38:49.269
way trying to think positively when I was in

00:38:49.269 --> 00:38:51.889
such a negative dark place. And then after I

00:38:51.889 --> 00:38:54.530
started being able to handle that, then I started

00:38:54.530 --> 00:38:56.489
to handle, I don't like this about me. I'm going

00:38:56.489 --> 00:38:58.349
to change it. I'm going to like, I don't like

00:38:58.349 --> 00:39:00.289
this about me. I don't, you know, I'm going to

00:39:00.289 --> 00:39:02.610
change it. You know, I still feel this way, but

00:39:02.610 --> 00:39:04.869
that's the way I viewed back when I was in high

00:39:04.869 --> 00:39:07.559
school before kids. What do I? really feel now

00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:10.559
because I think that a lot of women going through

00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:13.860
child loss, marriage, divorce, all of it, we

00:39:13.860 --> 00:39:17.690
lose ourselves in that. We kind of like stop.

00:39:17.690 --> 00:39:20.070
We kind of like stop growing, I guess you could

00:39:20.070 --> 00:39:22.829
say. Oh, yeah. Off on the back burner. Yes. And

00:39:22.829 --> 00:39:25.670
we've instead of when we become that mom, it

00:39:25.670 --> 00:39:27.590
becomes about that child and we don't think about

00:39:27.590 --> 00:39:30.010
us and what we who are we going to be as a mom?

00:39:30.170 --> 00:39:32.610
Who are we going to be as a mom that has an angel?

00:39:32.969 --> 00:39:36.010
Who are we going to be as a wife or a divorcee?

00:39:36.090 --> 00:39:38.690
And I think I think that's a big thing for us

00:39:38.690 --> 00:39:40.750
is we just put everything on the back burner.

00:39:40.929 --> 00:39:44.769
Yeah. I kind of answer. It does because society

00:39:44.769 --> 00:39:47.349
in general expects mothers to always just bounce

00:39:47.349 --> 00:39:52.369
back. And I say mothers implicitly because unfortunately

00:39:52.369 --> 00:39:55.170
fathers don't get the same scrutiny as mothers

00:39:55.170 --> 00:39:59.429
get, right? What do you think more people need

00:39:59.429 --> 00:40:02.349
to understand about the emotional and spiritual

00:40:02.349 --> 00:40:05.369
labor involved in surviving child loss because

00:40:05.369 --> 00:40:08.889
bouncing back like it's nothing is not a reality?

00:40:09.130 --> 00:40:11.650
Yeah, I think they need to know. Well, for me,

00:40:11.739 --> 00:40:14.579
the spiritual part of it. There was things that

00:40:14.579 --> 00:40:16.280
happened that I talked about in the book that

00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:18.659
happened to me when I was when I was going through

00:40:18.659 --> 00:40:22.199
my loss and obviously I was mad. I was mad mad

00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:25.440
mad at God for taking him away from me. Um, absolutely

00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:29.320
totally flustered with him and um, I thought

00:40:29.320 --> 00:40:32.559
we survived his birth together. So I was absolutely

00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:35.719
hor - just whatever. I was really bad. And so

00:40:35.719 --> 00:40:38.219
like for the spiritual part of it, I had things

00:40:38.219 --> 00:40:40.519
happen to me while I was going through all of

00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:43.960
this mess that I believe that there is obviously

00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:46.300
a higher spirit, whatever spirit that is. For

00:40:46.300 --> 00:40:49.619
me, I say God, but I believe in a higher power

00:40:49.619 --> 00:40:52.380
than - than here on earth. And I believe part

00:40:52.380 --> 00:40:55.199
of my healing journey was to know that one day

00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:58.280
I will see him again and I'll see with him again

00:40:58.280 --> 00:41:00.760
and that always helps me believe with the healing

00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:02.599
process. No, I don't sit here and think about

00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:05.239
it every single day, but I know eventually one

00:41:05.239 --> 00:41:07.900
day I'll see him again. I'll be with him again

00:41:07.900 --> 00:41:10.900
and that helped in my healing process and in

00:41:10.900 --> 00:41:14.510
the emotional process for me. I had to realize

00:41:14.510 --> 00:41:19.070
that I am going to be okay one day and something's

00:41:19.070 --> 00:41:21.349
going to what I call triggers. Something's going

00:41:21.349 --> 00:41:24.409
to trigger me and I am going to be emotional.

00:41:24.630 --> 00:41:26.929
That's a hot mess as I mentioned in my book.

00:41:26.929 --> 00:41:30.469
You did. Go back to that place. But I had to

00:41:30.469 --> 00:41:33.690
realize I need to be okay with it. And I think

00:41:33.690 --> 00:41:35.989
that's the biggest thing when you're going through

00:41:35.989 --> 00:41:39.260
it is realizing that you're not gonna stop crying

00:41:39.260 --> 00:41:43.480
one day and you know it might be six months down

00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:47.079
the road or ten years down the road you know

00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:49.659
i was actually i was watching something one of

00:41:49.659 --> 00:41:52.420
those darn reels and on facebook or instagram

00:41:52.420 --> 00:41:56.079
or one and between the music and just it was

00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:58.280
a mom talking about her loss and it's nothing

00:41:58.280 --> 00:42:00.940
that I had never seen before but it just brought

00:42:00.940 --> 00:42:02.840
me back to Caleb and I got teary -eyed and I

00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:05.199
started crying that moment it just it needed

00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:07.480
to hit you the way it hits you yeah and it was

00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:09.940
not something that was out of the ordinary I

00:42:09.940 --> 00:42:12.260
didn't cry for long but it just hit me you know

00:42:12.260 --> 00:42:14.860
and I and I'm like okay with it now but before

00:42:14.860 --> 00:42:17.079
it was like oh no I gotta you know I gotta act

00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:19.920
bad you know I gotta act stoic and you know but

00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:22.880
now I'm just like if I cry I cry it's gonna happen

00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:27.150
at the this time and being okay with that. You

00:42:27.150 --> 00:42:29.489
touched on something that I read and when I read

00:42:29.489 --> 00:42:31.909
it in the book and I kind of loved it because

00:42:31.909 --> 00:42:36.469
I lived it and you just mentioned it now about

00:42:36.469 --> 00:42:40.750
being angry at God. There have been, again for

00:42:40.750 --> 00:42:42.829
me especially when I read that I was like okay

00:42:42.829 --> 00:42:46.090
you know I felt a little almost a little comfort

00:42:46.090 --> 00:42:48.909
with that in a way because we always sometimes

00:42:48.909 --> 00:42:52.170
feel guilty when we feel angry at God. Yeah.

00:42:52.670 --> 00:42:55.269
And I know for me, there were moments I sat and

00:42:55.269 --> 00:42:59.570
I screamed and I cried to God, why? Like, what

00:42:59.570 --> 00:43:01.989
is the point of this? What is the reason for

00:43:01.989 --> 00:43:04.710
this? I don't want to have to, why, just why?

00:43:04.909 --> 00:43:06.909
And screaming and crying and you know, that's

00:43:06.909 --> 00:43:09.190
a relationship, right? So it's like he can, he

00:43:09.190 --> 00:43:11.670
or she or spirit or source, whatever, it can

00:43:11.670 --> 00:43:13.889
handle it. That's the point, right? To get you

00:43:13.889 --> 00:43:16.710
back to your grounding that you need, you know?

00:43:16.889 --> 00:43:20.090
And there were moments for me. that when I was

00:43:20.090 --> 00:43:22.389
at probably my lowest that I was the same way

00:43:22.389 --> 00:43:24.150
that I was like you know what I don't even care

00:43:24.150 --> 00:43:26.090
what happens you know I was just like whatever

00:43:26.090 --> 00:43:28.789
happens happens there were moments I was on the

00:43:28.789 --> 00:43:31.590
floor like a puddle hysterical crying and I actually

00:43:31.590 --> 00:43:35.409
would hear in my ear get up a voice Teresa get

00:43:35.409 --> 00:43:38.530
up and it wasn't my voice yeah you know and it

00:43:38.530 --> 00:43:41.309
was so shocking that it stopped me instantly

00:43:41.309 --> 00:43:44.010
and it was like and it was kind of like you have

00:43:44.010 --> 00:43:47.420
other things you have to do so get to it, right?

00:43:47.579 --> 00:43:49.840
Those kind of things. So we all have those moments,

00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:51.800
I think, where, you know, we think we're doing

00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:54.760
great, we have to re -evaluate our relationships

00:43:54.760 --> 00:43:58.059
with ourselves, with source, whatever, God, whatever

00:43:58.059 --> 00:44:01.980
we feel, and bring ourselves back to that grounding,

00:44:02.579 --> 00:44:06.000
whatever that is for you, to help push you along.

00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:08.519
Now, the reason I also mention this is because

00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:10.380
I know you mentioned it as well, you've studied

00:44:10.380 --> 00:44:12.960
multiple forms of therapy. and mental health

00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:15.380
practices so how did that learning influence

00:44:15.380 --> 00:44:17.380
and you touched a bit about it but in this particular

00:44:17.380 --> 00:44:19.579
case how did that learning influence your writing

00:44:19.579 --> 00:44:22.800
so when i started doing doing the therapies and

00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:25.849
stuff like that. I'm an extremist. If I'm going

00:44:25.849 --> 00:44:27.969
to do something, I'm going to do it to the extreme.

00:44:28.110 --> 00:44:31.110
And all of them I did to the extreme. And just

00:44:31.110 --> 00:44:35.070
side note, NLP was my favorite. That's Neurolinguistic

00:44:35.070 --> 00:44:38.710
Therapy. But basically, my biggest thing was

00:44:38.710 --> 00:44:41.449
is between the therapies and learning the therapies

00:44:41.449 --> 00:44:43.369
and they tell you, you know, you have to accept,

00:44:43.429 --> 00:44:46.030
you have to be truthful, you know, whatever that

00:44:46.030 --> 00:44:49.010
thing is that you felt, you have to be truthful

00:44:49.010 --> 00:44:51.530
about it. You know, you have to accept however

00:44:51.530 --> 00:44:54.210
you felt like for me. I hated, you know, I hated

00:44:54.210 --> 00:44:58.469
God. I'm not, you know, I did, you know. I felt

00:44:58.469 --> 00:45:00.929
like a crappy mom because I didn't get upset

00:45:00.929 --> 00:45:03.829
and cry when, you know, my child died. I had

00:45:03.829 --> 00:45:07.170
to accept that. So if I have to accept that and

00:45:07.170 --> 00:45:11.050
acknowledge it, I need to write my book exactly

00:45:11.050 --> 00:45:14.550
how I feel. And if I do that, then other moms

00:45:14.550 --> 00:45:17.730
will accept. how they felt and I think that's

00:45:17.730 --> 00:45:20.710
how the biggest part of it from everything that

00:45:20.710 --> 00:45:23.230
I've I've done and all those therapies and stuff

00:45:23.230 --> 00:45:25.570
the extreme stuff that I've done is you have

00:45:25.570 --> 00:45:27.929
to know your truth and I think that's the big

00:45:27.929 --> 00:45:31.030
thing with my writing it was like I'm gonna write

00:45:31.230 --> 00:45:32.969
I'm gonna write this up and I talk about one

00:45:32.969 --> 00:45:35.090
time in the book where right before we get to

00:45:35.090 --> 00:45:37.869
the hospital and I and I'm thinking to myself

00:45:37.869 --> 00:45:40.250
at least he's not suffering anymore. Caleb went

00:45:40.250 --> 00:45:42.449
through a lot and he had a seizure disorder and

00:45:42.449 --> 00:45:45.929
he went through a lot and I it's hard for a mom

00:45:45.929 --> 00:45:50.050
to even feel right about saying that but I was

00:45:50.050 --> 00:45:53.539
like maybe there's a mom out there. that felt

00:45:53.539 --> 00:45:55.679
like that or thought that and thinks that they're

00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:57.900
the whole most horrible person in the world.

00:45:58.579 --> 00:46:00.800
And all those therapies taught me is like you

00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:04.380
have to accept it and let it go. And I guess

00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:06.460
that's kind of what it did. It made me write

00:46:06.460 --> 00:46:09.460
my book more raw about exactly what I was going

00:46:09.460 --> 00:46:12.000
through. It really is. It's it's like I said,

00:46:12.139 --> 00:46:14.500
it's touching. I was there were moments that

00:46:14.500 --> 00:46:17.519
I was just reading and I was in my car reading

00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:21.619
and I was I was at my son's baseball practice

00:46:21.619 --> 00:46:24.920
and I'm in the car and I'm facing the field and

00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:28.039
I'm reading this and I'll be looking up back

00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:29.940
and forth to make sure he's all teeny tiny and

00:46:29.940 --> 00:46:31.519
I'm looking up and I'm reading it and I'm in

00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:34.420
my car. I had to put my sunglasses on because

00:46:34.420 --> 00:46:40.630
I felt it in my stomach, in my gut. hold all

00:46:40.630 --> 00:46:44.670
that emotion and it just it was beautifully raw

00:46:44.670 --> 00:46:47.469
it really was and lighthearted in a sense as

00:46:47.469 --> 00:46:49.690
well right like to help kind of that balance

00:46:49.690 --> 00:46:52.989
is definitely there you you talk about having

00:46:52.989 --> 00:46:56.510
forgiveness even for yourself right which is

00:46:56.510 --> 00:46:58.309
really hard to do and we touched on it a little

00:46:58.309 --> 00:47:00.250
bit earlier but not you have to forget it's not

00:47:00.250 --> 00:47:03.269
just for others but for yourself so if so what

00:47:03.269 --> 00:47:06.420
well what role Do you think that plays in the

00:47:06.420 --> 00:47:08.260
healing journey? They always say you have to

00:47:08.260 --> 00:47:10.420
forgive yourself. I mean, that's like the big

00:47:10.420 --> 00:47:12.119
thing. Oh, you got to forgive, you got to forgive.

00:47:12.179 --> 00:47:14.920
But I think you and everybody that could possibly

00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:17.099
be listening to that knows that that's like one

00:47:17.099 --> 00:47:21.130
of the hardest things that you have to do. How

00:47:21.130 --> 00:47:24.090
do I forgive myself if I, you know, and the way

00:47:24.090 --> 00:47:27.110
that I did it and it might help other people

00:47:27.110 --> 00:47:30.349
is I'm a clean slate. Yeah, I did some things

00:47:30.349 --> 00:47:33.210
that I probably am not proud of. And there's

00:47:33.210 --> 00:47:35.829
some things that I think I should have done better

00:47:35.829 --> 00:47:38.550
as a mom and, you know, wife or what, you know,

00:47:38.710 --> 00:47:42.269
whatever, but okay, I can't go back and change

00:47:42.269 --> 00:47:44.969
those. I forgive myself for being that way, but

00:47:44.969 --> 00:47:46.969
I'm never going to be that again. And I think

00:47:46.969 --> 00:47:49.730
that was a part of my, my journey too is like,

00:47:50.119 --> 00:47:52.019
Oh my gosh, I can't believe I did that at that

00:47:52.019 --> 00:47:53.780
time frame, whether, you know, whatever it was

00:47:53.780 --> 00:47:55.679
I was going through at the time, the dark demons

00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:58.800
as I call them. And I had to say, you know...

00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:01.000
I can't change it. There's absolutely nothing

00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:04.460
I can do to change it. I'm just going to move

00:48:04.460 --> 00:48:07.139
forward and I'll tell you, I can guarantee myself

00:48:07.139 --> 00:48:09.420
I will never do that again. And as long as I

00:48:09.420 --> 00:48:11.340
don't do it again, then I can forgive myself.

00:48:11.400 --> 00:48:14.099
That's really interesting because I think that

00:48:14.099 --> 00:48:17.159
we do try. Most people, if you're really trying

00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:19.699
to be on a healing journey of any kind and a

00:48:19.699 --> 00:48:22.380
healing and your way of saying a dealing journey

00:48:22.380 --> 00:48:24.820
is knowing that you're actually learning something

00:48:24.820 --> 00:48:27.750
from it, hopefully. Hopefully, you know, a lot

00:48:27.750 --> 00:48:30.949
of people don't, unfortunately, and even if,

00:48:31.070 --> 00:48:33.909
and even if you think that you're 100%, there's

00:48:33.909 --> 00:48:36.590
no such thing. So it's always about saying, okay,

00:48:36.730 --> 00:48:38.889
you can always remind yourself, oh, wait, let

00:48:38.889 --> 00:48:41.369
me let me go back to that. And now I learned

00:48:41.369 --> 00:48:43.250
from it. So how am I going to switch gears and

00:48:43.250 --> 00:48:44.730
remember what I've learned from it? And so I

00:48:44.730 --> 00:48:47.409
can deal with it differently. I think that that's,

00:48:47.409 --> 00:48:49.949
that's really important. in any journey. You

00:48:49.949 --> 00:48:51.829
were able to create a community for grieving

00:48:51.829 --> 00:48:54.369
mothers online. So how has now that you're a

00:48:54.369 --> 00:48:56.469
little more open obviously about it in the past

00:48:56.469 --> 00:48:58.409
amount of time that you have been, how is sharing

00:48:58.409 --> 00:49:01.590
space with other women who originally group wasn't

00:49:01.590 --> 00:49:04.389
what you needed, right? Change the way you see

00:49:04.389 --> 00:49:07.670
grief and purpose and the long path of healing

00:49:07.670 --> 00:49:10.989
and dealing, really. Yeah, that's the weirdest

00:49:10.989 --> 00:49:13.170
part about it is like I'm still an introvert

00:49:13.170 --> 00:49:16.250
today. To today, I will, you know, I love my

00:49:16.250 --> 00:49:19.429
space and I love my quiet time, but that group

00:49:19.429 --> 00:49:21.650
I guess like for me when I was going through

00:49:21.650 --> 00:49:22.909
and I was like well I'm gonna put this group

00:49:22.909 --> 00:49:25.070
together and I'm gonna help other women and it's

00:49:25.070 --> 00:49:27.070
you know it's not gonna be my thing but I'm gonna

00:49:27.070 --> 00:49:30.289
help other women and just putting it together

00:49:30.289 --> 00:49:32.929
I learned that and there's different things and

00:49:32.929 --> 00:49:35.449
it goes over in the book but there's a different

00:49:35.449 --> 00:49:38.010
healing if you talk about your child it's a different

00:49:38.010 --> 00:49:40.610
healing about learning reading about your child

00:49:40.610 --> 00:49:43.289
it's a different healing about hearing another

00:49:43.289 --> 00:49:46.269
mom's story sharing pictures you know learning

00:49:46.269 --> 00:49:48.699
something together. I believe you have to have

00:49:48.699 --> 00:49:50.900
all of that and group in the group setting it

00:49:50.900 --> 00:49:53.420
does help. But like one of the things in my group

00:49:53.420 --> 00:49:56.460
is for we're not going to play the victim to

00:49:56.460 --> 00:49:58.400
live with the loss if we have a bad day we're

00:49:58.400 --> 00:50:02.039
going to talk about it and you know. I hope by

00:50:02.039 --> 00:50:04.980
another mom posting in that group and going through

00:50:04.980 --> 00:50:07.519
something, another mom that's going, you know,

00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:10.300
on the other side of the world, you know, goes,

00:50:10.460 --> 00:50:12.579
you know what, I didn't think about it like that.

00:50:12.579 --> 00:50:15.519
Maybe I need to try that to try to heal or, you

00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:18.219
know, hey, I feel this way. And I felt really

00:50:18.219 --> 00:50:19.860
bad about it. But that mom right there feels

00:50:19.860 --> 00:50:22.219
the same way, you know, and it's just like that

00:50:22.219 --> 00:50:25.199
community where it's like, hey, we're okay. You

00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:27.480
know, yeah, we were kind of in a group that we

00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:30.260
never wanted to be in. Of course. we're okay,

00:50:30.420 --> 00:50:32.139
we're going to be okay and we're going to heal.

00:50:32.579 --> 00:50:35.280
And I think that healing is different for everybody

00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:36.820
because I believe, you know, we talked about

00:50:36.820 --> 00:50:40.019
earlier the personality, but I think that community

00:50:40.019 --> 00:50:42.380
helps, even if you're going down a different

00:50:42.380 --> 00:50:45.380
path of healing, helps you realize that, you

00:50:45.380 --> 00:50:48.320
know, yeah, we're different in our loss and our

00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:51.239
children usually die a different way, but we're

00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:53.400
all kind of going through the same thing. Deep

00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:54.920
down, we're all going through kind of the same

00:50:54.920 --> 00:50:58.119
thing and feeling the same way. No, no, of course,

00:50:58.300 --> 00:51:01.300
because I don't think it matters. If you could

00:51:01.300 --> 00:51:05.300
be, it's not the natural progression of life

00:51:05.300 --> 00:51:08.940
for a child to go before the parent. So it doesn't

00:51:08.940 --> 00:51:12.500
matter if the parent is 112 and the kid is 96.

00:51:12.679 --> 00:51:14.630
You know what I'm saying? Although that'd be

00:51:14.630 --> 00:51:16.769
a very young mom, but whatever, but either way,

00:51:17.110 --> 00:51:19.369
it doesn't matter. It's just in life. It's not

00:51:19.369 --> 00:51:21.190
the natural progression of things. That's still

00:51:21.190 --> 00:51:23.570
your baby. You know what I'm saying? It just,

00:51:23.570 --> 00:51:25.610
um, regardless of what your relationship was,

00:51:25.829 --> 00:51:27.909
regardless of whatever the case may be, there's

00:51:27.909 --> 00:51:30.949
going to be at some point where you have to.

00:51:31.010 --> 00:51:33.920
And I, again, I'm speaking from. different point

00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:35.579
of view, but I'm just saying in general, whatever

00:51:35.579 --> 00:51:38.059
the case may be, there's always where you have

00:51:38.059 --> 00:51:40.840
to get to that place of acceptance. And I know

00:51:40.840 --> 00:51:43.360
what happened to them. I know what happened to

00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:47.880
me. And how do I, how do I use this to, to be

00:51:47.880 --> 00:51:50.139
a catalyst for the rest of my life, you know,

00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:51.559
without, without, you know, and I always think

00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:55.820
to myself, and I always say to myself, would

00:51:55.820 --> 00:51:59.670
they Want me to suffer, you know or two or they

00:51:59.670 --> 00:52:01.949
just don't want me to say I'm with you and you

00:52:01.949 --> 00:52:03.769
feel like you know I'm sure you feel like your

00:52:03.769 --> 00:52:07.070
son is with you all the time and That that is

00:52:07.070 --> 00:52:09.010
as hard as that isn't him not physically with

00:52:09.010 --> 00:52:11.329
you. Sometimes I'm sure that's a bit of comfort

00:52:11.329 --> 00:52:14.670
as well Yeah, yeah, and you know, I will I believe

00:52:14.670 --> 00:52:18.099
in like signs and stuff. Oh me too I'm a firm

00:52:18.099 --> 00:52:21.780
believer in signs and, you know, I was actually,

00:52:22.059 --> 00:52:23.820
it was this weekend, it was either Saturday or

00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:25.860
Sunday, I was washing dishes and looked out my

00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:27.340
window and there was a red cardinal right there

00:52:27.340 --> 00:52:33.440
in the bush, you know. Dragonflies right now

00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:37.260
are all over the place, you know, I think those

00:52:37.260 --> 00:52:39.460
are signs. They're out there, I think he's with

00:52:39.460 --> 00:52:41.699
me all the time, but, you know, it's not something

00:52:41.699 --> 00:52:44.219
that I think about all the time, but when I see

00:52:44.219 --> 00:52:47.269
something like that, I'm like, When he wants

00:52:47.269 --> 00:52:49.969
you to know, that's when he lets you see that.

00:52:49.969 --> 00:52:55.150
I want to read a passage from page 22, find it

00:52:55.150 --> 00:52:58.610
here. Like I said, I really could have sat here

00:52:58.610 --> 00:53:00.050
the whole time and just read the whole book out

00:53:00.050 --> 00:53:04.610
loud, to be honest with you. Okay, it says, obviously

00:53:04.610 --> 00:53:07.829
my child died when he was two years old. And

00:53:07.829 --> 00:53:09.909
for some of you, your child lived to be an adult

00:53:09.909 --> 00:53:12.329
and had babies of their own. It's not about what

00:53:12.329 --> 00:53:14.349
stage our children were at in life or how they

00:53:14.349 --> 00:53:16.880
passed. We are all one. We might not understand

00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:18.860
each other's story, but we do understand the

00:53:18.860 --> 00:53:20.739
pain. With each of us who go through the loss

00:53:20.739 --> 00:53:23.079
of a child, we understand what worked for us

00:53:23.079 --> 00:53:25.360
may work for others and others who are dealing

00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:28.130
with loss. What do you hope? a mother who is

00:53:28.130 --> 00:53:30.869
in the early raw stages of loss feels when she

00:53:30.869 --> 00:53:33.090
reads your book? The first and the biggest thing

00:53:33.090 --> 00:53:35.610
is like I hope they don't feel they feel that

00:53:35.610 --> 00:53:38.570
they're not alone. I mean I knew people that

00:53:38.570 --> 00:53:41.849
had lost children but I didn't like get it and

00:53:41.849 --> 00:53:44.070
then when I lost Caleb I thought I was the only

00:53:44.070 --> 00:53:47.309
person that's ever lost a child. Of course. And

00:53:47.309 --> 00:53:49.670
then nobody could understand what I was going

00:53:49.670 --> 00:53:52.960
through. And I don't think it's the fact that

00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:55.599
someone, another mother that has lost a child

00:53:55.599 --> 00:53:57.480
is going to understand exactly what I'm going

00:53:57.480 --> 00:54:00.820
through, but they understand, they truly understand

00:54:00.820 --> 00:54:03.659
enough to just sit there with you and be like,

00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:05.360
hey, we don't have to talk if you don't want

00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:07.860
to, but you know. I'm here if you need me. You

00:54:07.860 --> 00:54:10.179
know, um, I think that's the biggest thing I

00:54:10.179 --> 00:54:11.880
would, I would definitely want them to know is

00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:14.460
that they're not, they're not alone. You know,

00:54:14.579 --> 00:54:18.039
obviously I'm weary of a lot of the groups that

00:54:18.039 --> 00:54:19.659
are out there for child loss, which is really

00:54:19.659 --> 00:54:21.320
weird because I own a group. I have a group,

00:54:21.539 --> 00:54:23.960
but I'm really weary of it because a lot of those

00:54:23.960 --> 00:54:26.320
groups, they, this might get some people, this

00:54:26.320 --> 00:54:29.269
might trigger some people, but I feel like sometimes

00:54:29.269 --> 00:54:32.030
as a mom that's lost children, we play like the

00:54:32.030 --> 00:54:35.329
victim role and we play the victim of our circumstances

00:54:35.329 --> 00:54:37.769
instead of figuring out which way we need to

00:54:37.769 --> 00:54:40.210
go. And I'm real brave saying that right now,

00:54:40.210 --> 00:54:42.469
but I was the victim when I first started, you

00:54:42.469 --> 00:54:45.449
know, so I've been there, but you know, we play

00:54:45.449 --> 00:54:48.489
the victim of our circumstances and it's hard

00:54:48.489 --> 00:54:52.210
to get out of that space. If you don't get out

00:54:52.210 --> 00:54:53.829
of that space, you're going to be in that dark

00:54:53.829 --> 00:54:57.289
spot. And I hope that they understand that, hey,

00:54:57.409 --> 00:54:59.710
there are people out there that can help me.

00:54:59.809 --> 00:55:01.949
Maybe I just need to find the right group, the

00:55:01.949 --> 00:55:04.250
right people. You would be surprised how someone

00:55:04.250 --> 00:55:06.369
that has never gone through child loss before

00:55:06.369 --> 00:55:08.849
can be there for you just as much as someone

00:55:08.849 --> 00:55:10.710
that's not been through child loss. Right, right.

00:55:11.050 --> 00:55:13.550
And that's another, like the book, when I wrote

00:55:13.550 --> 00:55:16.719
the book about... It was written for moms, obviously,

00:55:16.860 --> 00:55:20.079
definitely for moms. But if someone else picked

00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:22.099
up that book, it would kind of give you a sense

00:55:22.099 --> 00:55:24.860
of what the mom might be going through. Yes.

00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:27.900
Different, different kind of loss, but maybe

00:55:27.900 --> 00:55:30.380
what she's feeling and maybe you could help them.

00:55:30.539 --> 00:55:32.960
But yeah, I guess that's the biggest thing is,

00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:34.980
is I wanted them to know that they're not alone

00:55:34.980 --> 00:55:38.360
and that there's millions of us out here, millions

00:55:38.360 --> 00:55:42.840
of us out here. It's so unfortunate. But I do

00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:45.250
like how you said, Like, I know you're right,

00:55:45.369 --> 00:55:47.429
I made sure there's some people, but not to play

00:55:47.429 --> 00:55:50.889
the victim. I say long game, right? Everybody,

00:55:51.210 --> 00:55:54.989
all of us, no matter what the loss is, all human

00:55:54.989 --> 00:55:57.610
nature will play the victim, right? Like, it

00:55:57.610 --> 00:55:59.929
doesn't matter what it is, sickness, death, also.

00:56:00.190 --> 00:56:03.730
a marriage, divorce, I mean, loss of a job, whatever

00:56:03.730 --> 00:56:06.650
it is, right? Like whatever it is, we play that

00:56:06.650 --> 00:56:08.670
victim game. Again, I think that's just human

00:56:08.670 --> 00:56:10.489
nature to do that. But you're right. I think

00:56:10.489 --> 00:56:13.210
after a certain amount of time sitting in that,

00:56:13.389 --> 00:56:15.329
you're not going to grow, right? You're just

00:56:15.329 --> 00:56:17.369
not going to grow. Now, June, I want to switch

00:56:17.369 --> 00:56:19.489
gears a little bit because what's powerful about

00:56:19.489 --> 00:56:22.750
your story is how you hold space for truth and

00:56:22.750 --> 00:56:26.070
imagination, grief and love, pain and possibility.

00:56:26.289 --> 00:56:28.949
So after sharing so openly and vulnerably and

00:56:28.949 --> 00:56:31.860
mama, you don't heal you then turn to fiction

00:56:31.860 --> 00:56:34.320
with whispered promises and this is a story that

00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:36.760
carries its own emotional weight but in a completely

00:56:36.760 --> 00:56:39.400
different way so if you don't mind let's talk

00:56:39.400 --> 00:56:40.719
about that journey a little bit what it meant

00:56:40.719 --> 00:56:44.619
for you to shift from memoir to fiction and what

00:56:44.619 --> 00:56:47.179
whisper promises lie to explore i know you had

00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:50.460
some other life altering events after as well

00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:53.380
that helped be a catalyst for this as well. So

00:56:53.380 --> 00:56:55.800
with the second book Whisper Promises, again,

00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:57.760
being a very different story, it's a love story

00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:00.239
that's a love story that spans decades and life's

00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:02.940
many different turns. So what inspired this story

00:57:02.940 --> 00:57:05.019
and how did it come to life after everything

00:57:05.019 --> 00:57:09.119
you've been through? So I obviously wrote my

00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:14.139
book, Mama You Don't Heal, and it was out for

00:57:14.139 --> 00:57:16.800
five months. And I mean, it was it was doing

00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:18.800
good. I was doing all kinds of podcasts and everything

00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:23.059
is great. My husband at the time asked for a

00:57:23.059 --> 00:57:28.340
divorce after 10 years. And so, you know, it

00:57:28.340 --> 00:57:31.400
comes to a point where and I can't say that our

00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:33.860
marriage is perfect at all, you know, but nobody

00:57:33.860 --> 00:57:36.659
said I still was kind of blindsiding. obviously

00:57:36.659 --> 00:57:40.300
and um i guess you know when i was at that point

00:57:40.300 --> 00:57:43.440
i was like i go back to and this probably sounds

00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:46.900
snooty but i go back to my affirmation i had

00:57:46.900 --> 00:57:49.360
with caleb i've already lived my worst day every

00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:51.780
day after that is gonna be better than this day

00:57:51.780 --> 00:57:54.400
was like you know what i just got to pivot this

00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:56.860
isn't the way i'm going i have a daughter now

00:57:56.860 --> 00:57:58.940
and i want to go in a different direction and

00:57:58.940 --> 00:58:01.920
i guess i you know that's that's kind of what

00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:04.219
I wanted when I was dealing with the story I

00:58:04.219 --> 00:58:06.559
was like you know I want something that that

00:58:06.559 --> 00:58:09.579
feels real that has kind of emotion in it and

00:58:09.579 --> 00:58:13.000
that people that they can they can the audience

00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:15.400
can relate to I think that's the that's the biggest

00:58:15.400 --> 00:58:18.019
thing I wanted to I wanted a fiction story where

00:58:18.019 --> 00:58:21.670
something was real something was real and something

00:58:21.670 --> 00:58:24.710
lasted and um that's that's kind of where I was

00:58:24.710 --> 00:58:27.469
going with it and that's where I went with it.

00:58:27.590 --> 00:58:29.989
So in some ways Whisper of Promises is about

00:58:29.989 --> 00:58:32.670
second chances right and the power connection

00:58:32.670 --> 00:58:35.489
so was writing this fiction was it a form of

00:58:35.489 --> 00:58:37.949
escape about healing something or something else

00:58:37.949 --> 00:58:41.369
entirely for you? I think it was just, I guess

00:58:41.369 --> 00:58:45.570
maybe it's an escape. An escape from like society

00:58:45.570 --> 00:58:49.150
now and the situationships and the, you know,

00:58:49.389 --> 00:58:53.409
hookups. Yeah, the single culture is ugly. It's

00:58:53.409 --> 00:58:55.949
ugly right now. It's ugly right now. I fear for

00:58:55.949 --> 00:58:58.750
my daughter, I'm sure you feel for yours, because

00:58:58.750 --> 00:59:00.809
she's of age, mine I have a fear for you. But

00:59:00.809 --> 00:59:03.050
you know, it was, I just wanted to do something

00:59:03.050 --> 00:59:05.030
different. So it was like an escape because,

00:59:05.230 --> 00:59:09.690
you know, I believe in love. Um, so, you know,

00:59:09.889 --> 00:59:12.769
um, I just wanted that escape. I wanted that

00:59:12.769 --> 00:59:16.170
escape away from what society has going on right

00:59:16.170 --> 00:59:18.710
now, I guess. And even in divorces too, because

00:59:18.710 --> 00:59:21.269
divorces, I mean, you know, people joke around,

00:59:21.389 --> 00:59:22.849
obviously I'm in law enforcement, people joke

00:59:22.849 --> 00:59:24.789
around like, oh, it's only your first divorce.

00:59:25.050 --> 00:59:27.429
You know what I mean? I'm unfortunately on the

00:59:27.429 --> 00:59:30.389
way to two and I'm only my early forties and,

00:59:30.809 --> 00:59:34.440
and, and it wasn't in any. It wasn't in any trajectory

00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:36.260
of mind. You just can't control other people

00:59:36.260 --> 00:59:37.940
and you can't control their actions. In this

00:59:37.940 --> 00:59:40.300
book, the characters maintain a relationship

00:59:40.300 --> 00:59:43.019
through emails, letters and small reunions over

00:59:43.019 --> 00:59:45.460
the years. So do you believe that love can survive

00:59:45.460 --> 00:59:48.659
across time and space? I absolutely believe that.

00:59:48.760 --> 00:59:52.219
And I believe that there's a person for everybody.

00:59:52.480 --> 00:59:54.920
The male in the book is in the military. I come

00:59:54.920 --> 00:59:57.219
from a military town. And then the woman in the

00:59:57.219 --> 01:00:00.239
book is in law enforcement. And so I wanted to

01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:03.539
do kind of the distance. And, you know, back

01:00:03.539 --> 01:00:06.599
in the in the 90s, it was you're writing letters,

01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:09.280
you're not getting on the cell phone and saying,

01:00:09.460 --> 01:00:11.360
hey, what's up, you know, you're not Skyping,

01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:15.219
you're not doing like all this. Yeah, you weren't

01:00:15.219 --> 01:00:17.739
doing that back then. And no instant gratification

01:00:17.739 --> 01:00:19.940
because that we've really gotten used to. Yeah,

01:00:20.039 --> 01:00:22.420
we've gotten used to it. So I wanted something

01:00:22.420 --> 01:00:25.840
set kind of back at that time. But yeah, and

01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:28.579
I wanted something to feel real because I believe

01:00:28.579 --> 01:00:31.579
that if love was meant to be, they'll always

01:00:31.579 --> 01:00:34.739
come back to you. They'll always find you. You

01:00:34.739 --> 01:00:36.880
know, I don't know if there's one special person

01:00:36.880 --> 01:00:39.860
for everybody, but I believe that you're going

01:00:39.860 --> 01:00:42.980
to know when that person comes. Did writing whispered

01:00:42.980 --> 01:00:46.019
promises help you explore the concept of love

01:00:46.019 --> 01:00:49.579
from a new lens, especially after loss and heartbreak

01:00:49.579 --> 01:00:52.539
and any other major life changes? Oh, yeah. Yeah,

01:00:52.639 --> 01:00:56.539
I mean, it made me it made me go back to realizing

01:00:56.539 --> 01:01:00.070
what what love should be. and what it shouldn't

01:01:00.070 --> 01:01:04.369
be. And I think for me moving forward, it also

01:01:04.369 --> 01:01:07.190
made me do, you know, I told you earlier, analyze

01:01:07.190 --> 01:01:11.090
everything. You know, it made me analyze myself

01:01:11.090 --> 01:01:15.429
and what I really wanted and what I should, I

01:01:15.429 --> 01:01:16.630
don't know how to explain it, but maybe should

01:01:16.630 --> 01:01:20.329
have done earlier. What I should have paid attention

01:01:20.329 --> 01:01:23.989
to more, I guess you could say. And what I'm

01:01:23.989 --> 01:01:27.289
going to and not going to deal with in love anymore.

01:01:27.510 --> 01:01:30.360
Amen. That's where you learn, right? That's exactly

01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:32.159
how you learn. You keep learning from your past.

01:01:32.679 --> 01:01:34.760
It's just you hope that you don't make those

01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:37.559
same mistakes where you see it before those same

01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:41.960
mistakes were made. Yes. So June, we're basically

01:01:41.960 --> 01:01:44.639
at the end of our interview, but I have some

01:01:44.639 --> 01:01:47.219
more questions for you. If you could sit with

01:01:47.219 --> 01:01:49.579
yourself from the day after your loss, what would

01:01:49.579 --> 01:01:52.750
you say to her now having come this far? You're

01:01:52.750 --> 01:01:55.190
not alone. I mean, that's that's still my biggest

01:01:55.190 --> 01:01:58.130
thing is is you're not alone and do it the way

01:01:58.130 --> 01:02:00.230
you want to do it. Grieve the way you want to

01:02:00.230 --> 01:02:03.070
do it. You don't have to be stoic. You don't

01:02:03.070 --> 01:02:07.230
have to hide your emotions. Just let it flow,

01:02:07.250 --> 01:02:09.650
because that's one of the biggest things that

01:02:09.650 --> 01:02:14.050
if I would have started from the start and showing

01:02:14.050 --> 01:02:16.550
my emotions, well, maybe not even show letting

01:02:16.550 --> 01:02:20.639
my emotions come. Instead of just packing them

01:02:20.639 --> 01:02:22.760
away that would have helped me out so much more

01:02:22.760 --> 01:02:24.940
and then just to tell myself you're gonna make

01:02:24.940 --> 01:02:28.019
it It's a long road, but you're gonna make it

01:02:28.019 --> 01:02:31.800
no expectations. Yeah. Yeah It's just one day

01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:35.039
at a time. Yeah, just do I mean if you know I

01:02:35.039 --> 01:02:37.239
mean if you do something that's crazy do something

01:02:37.239 --> 01:02:39.199
that's crazy if you're gonna cry or if you're

01:02:39.199 --> 01:02:41.219
standing in line and start crying Hey, it is

01:02:41.219 --> 01:02:43.900
what it is. Right exactly people that don't even

01:02:43.900 --> 01:02:46.579
know you think you're crazy. I mean, right What's

01:02:46.579 --> 01:02:49.360
it matter? You know and just don't care don't

01:02:49.360 --> 01:02:53.099
care like that for women listening today who

01:02:53.099 --> 01:02:55.739
are struggling with any kind of loss or a disconnection

01:02:55.739 --> 01:02:58.400
from their purpose what's one gentle first step

01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:01.159
you'd encourage them to take yeah so basically

01:03:01.159 --> 01:03:04.820
i would tell them is to to sit in their space

01:03:04.820 --> 01:03:07.519
in their silence and i would definitely tell

01:03:07.519 --> 01:03:11.090
them to decide that day whatever day that is

01:03:11.090 --> 01:03:13.389
once you start thinking about it decide that

01:03:13.389 --> 01:03:15.349
day that you don't want to be in the place that

01:03:15.349 --> 01:03:18.429
you're in and once you say decide that don't

01:03:18.429 --> 01:03:21.050
ever turn back. Don't ever, don't ever go back

01:03:21.050 --> 01:03:23.510
to the way you feel that day. You know, you might

01:03:23.510 --> 01:03:26.809
not have like the best plan of action. You might

01:03:26.809 --> 01:03:28.510
not know where you want to go. You don't know.

01:03:28.590 --> 01:03:31.250
You might not know what your goal is, but each

01:03:31.250 --> 01:03:33.949
day sit with it and just take one step forward.

01:03:34.050 --> 01:03:36.750
Or I say baby steps a lot, take that one baby

01:03:36.750 --> 01:03:40.050
step forward and just never go back to the day

01:03:40.050 --> 01:03:42.349
before. And you actually mentioned journaling

01:03:42.349 --> 01:03:44.690
earlier and I tell people to do it all the time

01:03:44.690 --> 01:03:47.110
is the days that you think you're going backwards,

01:03:47.230 --> 01:03:50.050
go back and read that journal. two months ago

01:03:50.050 --> 01:03:51.889
and see where you're at and then you'll realize

01:03:51.889 --> 01:03:53.989
that you're way ahead. That's a wonderful tool.

01:03:54.289 --> 01:03:57.250
I love that. That's completely true when you

01:03:57.250 --> 01:04:01.949
see that progression. You go, wow, who was that

01:04:01.949 --> 01:04:04.230
person? Yeah, I can't believe that I've come

01:04:04.230 --> 01:04:06.969
this far. Yes, exactly. And I lied. I said I

01:04:06.969 --> 01:04:08.030
had two more questions. Actually, I have one

01:04:08.030 --> 01:04:11.320
more. Please tell our audience where they can

01:04:11.320 --> 01:04:12.739
find you, where they can buy your book. I'm going

01:04:12.739 --> 01:04:14.460
to put it all in the show notes, of course, all

01:04:14.460 --> 01:04:16.360
the books as well. And I will be buying with

01:04:16.360 --> 01:04:18.280
the promises because I want to read that one

01:04:18.280 --> 01:04:21.639
too fully. Right. I really do. I'm like so intrigued.

01:04:21.800 --> 01:04:23.860
But please tell our audience where they can contact

01:04:23.860 --> 01:04:26.639
you if they would like to buy your book, et cetera,

01:04:26.699 --> 01:04:29.659
et cetera, et cetera. So the easiest place to

01:04:29.659 --> 01:04:31.539
look for my book is obviously on the Amazon.

01:04:31.739 --> 01:04:34.980
But if you type in either of the titles, you

01:04:34.980 --> 01:04:37.320
can find my book. It's at several different spots.

01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:40.579
Mama, you don't heal. You got Amazon, Walmart,

01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:43.619
Target, Barnes and Noble, whole bunch of them.

01:04:43.739 --> 01:04:47.960
Whisper Promises is on Amazon and I saw it on

01:04:47.960 --> 01:04:50.320
Barnes and Noble the other day. So like it's

01:04:50.320 --> 01:04:52.579
starting to pick up more the longer it is, but

01:04:52.579 --> 01:04:56.219
Amazon's obviously the easiest. If you want to

01:04:56.219 --> 01:04:58.659
find my group for child loss, it's a private

01:04:58.659 --> 01:05:01.320
group. It's only for women who have lost children.

01:05:01.340 --> 01:05:03.579
There's about 1700 people in there right now,

01:05:03.619 --> 01:05:06.719
all women. And it's at, it's on Facebook and

01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:09.719
it's women surviving child loss and it's a private

01:05:09.719 --> 01:05:11.619
group you have to answer some questions I just

01:05:11.619 --> 01:05:13.260
want to make sure that you've actually lost a

01:05:13.260 --> 01:05:16.280
child a group and that you're female and then

01:05:16.280 --> 01:05:19.360
that's my private group and then everyone I have

01:05:19.360 --> 01:05:22.260
to talk tick -tock Instagram Facebook if you

01:05:22.260 --> 01:05:25.219
search my name or the Serenity Dreamer that's

01:05:25.219 --> 01:05:28.400
my business page on Facebook and then Author

01:05:28.400 --> 01:05:31.019
June Karolik, you can find me, but sometimes

01:05:31.019 --> 01:05:33.199
it's easier by, you know, searching the Serenity

01:05:33.199 --> 01:05:36.340
Dreamer. But yeah, and if you want to message

01:05:36.340 --> 01:05:40.699
me, obviously my email is hello at authorjunekarolik

01:05:40.699 --> 01:05:44.480
.com, but my last name is kind of weird. It's

01:05:44.480 --> 01:05:47.480
kind of long and stuff. So if you message me

01:05:47.480 --> 01:05:51.099
on TikTok, Instagram, or Facebook, I will message

01:05:51.099 --> 01:05:53.000
you back on there too, because I do that too.

01:05:53.239 --> 01:05:55.920
And that's... basically how you can get a hold

01:05:55.920 --> 01:05:57.519
of me. No, that's awesome. And again, like I

01:05:57.519 --> 01:05:58.699
said, I'm gonna put all that in the show notes,

01:05:58.940 --> 01:06:00.880
everything, it'll be a listing in case for anybody

01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:03.119
who would like to get more information or, or

01:06:03.119 --> 01:06:04.920
reach out to you as well. June, thank you for

01:06:04.920 --> 01:06:07.800
being here and sharing both your heart, your

01:06:07.800 --> 01:06:10.420
words, your healing with us. What you've shown

01:06:10.420 --> 01:06:12.260
us is that we don't have to have it all figured

01:06:12.260 --> 01:06:14.650
out to begin again. That purpose can grow out

01:06:14.650 --> 01:06:16.650
of pain, and that even after everything changes

01:06:16.650 --> 01:06:18.949
we can still write new chapters, whether through

01:06:18.949 --> 01:06:21.769
tears, love letters, or whisper promises of our

01:06:21.769 --> 01:06:24.969
own. You include a Mona Lisa Diamond quote, positive

01:06:24.969 --> 01:06:27.070
people are not positive because they've skated

01:06:27.070 --> 01:06:29.050
through life, they're positive because they've

01:06:29.050 --> 01:06:30.650
been through hell and decided they don't want

01:06:30.650 --> 01:06:33.090
to live there anymore. So to anyone listening

01:06:33.090 --> 01:06:35.670
who's navigating loss, identity, the feeling

01:06:35.670 --> 01:06:38.710
of being unrecognizable to yourself, I hope you

01:06:38.710 --> 01:06:40.389
walk away from this episode knowing that you're

01:06:40.389 --> 01:06:43.090
not alone. Feeling might not be linear or neat

01:06:43.090 --> 01:06:45.570
or complete, but it's possible and your story

01:06:45.570 --> 01:06:47.610
still matters. You can connect with June online

01:06:47.610 --> 01:06:49.909
and explore both of her books. Again, Mama You

01:06:49.909 --> 01:06:52.210
Don't Heal and Mr. Promises, wherever you get

01:06:52.210 --> 01:06:54.010
your books. And again, I'll say it, we'll link

01:06:54.010 --> 01:06:55.849
everything in the show notes. Thank you for joining

01:06:55.849 --> 01:06:58.329
me. You can reach me at Prosecco Queen's podcast

01:06:58.329 --> 01:07:02.550
on all of social media. As well as ProseccoQueen'spodcast

01:07:02.550 --> 01:07:06.429
.gmail .com. And please like, subscribe, review

01:07:06.429 --> 01:07:09.769
podcasts on YouTube at Prosecco Queen's podcast.

01:07:10.030 --> 01:07:12.409
I will be off for a couple of weeks. We will

01:07:12.409 --> 01:07:14.369
make sure to keep everybody in the loop of when

01:07:14.369 --> 01:07:17.130
our next episode is coming out. So until next

01:07:17.130 --> 01:07:20.010
time, be gentle with yourself and remember you're

01:07:20.010 --> 01:07:22.750
allowed to rebuild, to rest, and to rise. Thanks

01:07:22.750 --> 01:07:24.969
for listening to Prosecco Queen's podcast. Cheers.

01:07:25.409 --> 01:07:25.570
Peace out.