Alright, so let's set the scene.
We got a pop of Prosecco bottle, the clink of glasses, and the laughter of Queens filling
the air.
Today, we are welcoming back another episode of Prosecco Queens, the podcast where we
will sip, spill, and celebrate the stories of resilience, empowerment, and transformation.
Today we're pouring a glass in honor of a truly inspiring Queen, someone who has turned
pain into purpose, struggles into strength, and lessons into love.
She's the host and creator of the Co-Dependent Me podcast, where she dives into the world
of codependency, addiction, and the road to healing.
With real life experiences, powerful tools, and a heart full of wisdom, she helps people
break from toxic relationships and reclaim their lives with the help of her guests.
And guess what?
I had the absolute honor of being a guest on her show just last week, sharing my own journey
with codependency.
And let me tell you, Tamala creates a space that is raw, real, and so healing.
So grab your glasses and raise your toes because joining us today is none other than the incredible
Tamala Shaw.
Tamala, welcome to Prosecco Queens.
Let's get into it.
So Tamala, tell me about yourself.
Please tell our audience.
Oh my gosh, I have never heard such beautiful words.
Oh, I'm so glad.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for having me because honestly, I don't do a lot of podcasts.
So when you, when you offer it, I was like, oh heck yeah, because I noticed that.
And I'll do that as well.
I will shout out PodMatch.
I know you did that as well.
I don't do that as often as I should.
I'm going to shout out PodMatch because that's how we met.
And I did notice that I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited.
You're going to be a guest on my show.
And then I realized you don't even have a guest profile.
No, I rarely do podcasts.
I do some speaking engagements, but I don't really get on, which, you know, that was kind
of my goal in 2025 because it is a way to get your story out.
And that's very important, you know?
Yeah.
It's so, it's so wonderful.
I spent so much time being a host.
It's so great being a guest, right?
People learn from our experiences, right?
Like they're able to say, I'm not alone.
Look at this wonderful person who has come through whatever we come through, right?
So tell me and tell the audience about yourself.
Like I know, again, as the guest, I was speaking my brain out about my stuff, but I'm so glad
I get to get to know more about you and hear about your story and how you've come to be
as successful as you are.
Thank you.
Thank you for that.
So I am Tal Lushal.
I am, oh my goodness, a holistic coach.
I am the founder of the Sober Families Matter, which is a nonprofit.
We help and support the families of people who are in addiction because, you know, the
person that has the addiction, they go to their resources and they go to their meetings
and all of that, but it's not a lot out here for the family.
That's right.
And really sometimes they don't understand what it is for addiction.
I know I didn't.
I didn't either.
My mother is a recovering alcoholic.
My stepfather is a recovering alcoholic.
My biological father was, I say was because he's passed on addicted to narcotics.
My grandfather was an alcoholic.
My aunt was an alcoholic.
It's just all of this.
It was surrounding me.
So you know that you have this addictive nature, mine personally wasn't with a drug or alcohol
or it was people.
I had addiction with people.
So that's where the codependency came in.
So I have the Sober Families Matter.
And as far as codependent me, I have the podcast.
I coach people who are recovering from codependency, trying to help them find boundaries and detachment
and how to do things in a healthy manner.
And then I also have a radio show on an internet radio show called Get Your Ship, SHIP, Together,
All Things Relationships.
And that's on Cream City Connection Radio and you can get there by going creamcityconnection.com.
It's on Thursdays at noon central time.
I bring up different topics about different relationships, but it's not all like physical.
It could be a relationship with, what was it last week, with detachment.
It was a relationship with, I did a show on letting go, like how to let people be who
they are, you know, your relationship with being attached to people.
It's tons of relationships, but it's just not, you know, with, you know, like male,
female or something like that.
It could be a relationship with anything.
Okay.
Yes.
Let's see what else do I do?
I think that's it.
It keeps me busy.
Definitely keeps me busy, but yes, but as far as a personal side on how I got to co-dependency,
it is because of my upbringing when it came to being at home with parents that were alcoholics.
You know, my mom, she would pick me and my brother up and, you know, from my granny's
house and take us home and we had to stop with this at the liquor store, you know, and
stop there.
But in Milwaukee, liquor stores also had snacks.
It looks like a grocery store with liquor in it.
Wow.
Kind of like the bodega's when I was little in New York.
Yes.
Exactly.
Yes.
So I didn't think of it as going to a liquor store.
It was, she stopped at the store.
Right.
Stopped at the store.
I can get snacks.
I'm going to get some gummy bears or some chips, you know, and then we go.
Lighten, lighten it right up a bit.
Absolutely.
In that 10 year old brain, right?
And I would, we'd get home.
We'd do our homework.
She'd cook.
She'd make sure we were good.
And then she'd go in her room.
She went in her room.
She, I can honestly say, I never really saw her drink.
She was functioning.
I never really saw her drunk, but I'm sure she wasn't there.
She was definitely functioning.
Right.
Yes.
So it was my job to ensure, my job in my head, of course, to ensure that my brother was entertained
and I always well.
And there were certain nights, there will be certain things that happened.
Like one night she cooked, went and fell asleep.
I call it a stupor because you don't fall asleep when you're drunk until you're drunk.
That's right.
You're like blackout.
Exactly.
And the house was smoky.
Oh my God.
So she left us, she left some food on the stove.
And of course that made me think, oh, well, she's obviously tired.
Before I go to bed, I'll make sure the food is off.
If it's in your right.
You know, so both, it was these things that I started doing.
Before I went to bed, I would make sure my brother was cozy in his bed.
I would make sure that everything was off on the stove.
I would make sure that the doors were locked.
And those were the things that I should not have been responsible for.
Absolutely not.
That was your survival kicking in.
Absolutely.
You're a big sister.
I know because I've been there.
You're a big sister, you're a survival.
You know, it just helped create this person that said, I have to do these things.
And now you've created a character in yourself.
Absolutely.
As a little mommy doing this stuff.
Absolutely.
And then it was this thing where, okay, so the thing, I used to think my mom had a problem
with was not drinking, it was smoking.
She was a smoker.
So it always, I've never talked about this anywhere before, honestly.
Well, thank you for sharing whatever you're comfortable with.
That's right.
You do you girl.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for the platform because obviously I'm comfortable.
Yeah, good.
I'm glad.
That's my goal.
So I always wanted her to stop smoking.
So I would do certain things that, you know, first I started hiding her cigarettes and
she's like, Bay, if I'm going to smoke, if I, if I'm going to smoke, I'm going to smoke.
So I started to do these things to like it.
Maybe if I did this, then she wouldn't smoke.
Maybe if I did this, that's the people pleasing.
That's right.
That's exactly it.
So that's where the people pleasing came in.
And so all of these things came into my adulthood.
So I started realizing after I realized I was codependent that all of my friends needed
me to not be the healthy Tamela.
They needed me to be the fixer.
They needed me to give them all of the advice.
They used to call me, oh, she's just like Oprah.
She liked Dr. Phil.
She's only, no, it's because y'all were not healthy.
You weren't standing on your own, figuring out your own stuff.
And let me caveat that by saying I understand that completely because they used to call
me Mother Teresa.
Because I was the same exact thing.
So I feel you, you're saying this and I can relate to it because it was exactly who I
was.
Yes, absolutely.
And people loved it.
There were no boundaries.
You could call me all hours of the night.
I would, you know, I could be planning on doing something else and oh, they need me.
So I'm going to be there.
And you know, I was married, had a couple of kids.
I was just like, I don't know what's going on in my marriage, but I'm just not happy.
Yeah.
I was tired of being responsible.
I was finally listening to my body saying, feel good.
I feel I'm just drained.
I'm exhausted.
Got to the point where I was sitting in front of the house and not go into the house because
I would dread what was waiting for me to be, whether it was because I was fixing all day.
I'm fixing it.
We're doing this and that and this.
I'm exhausted.
Yeah.
I finally went to counseling and I was like, we have to figure out what's wrong.
Like what is wrong?
What's going on?
And she told me, she said, you're codependent.
And I was like, what's that?
Yeah.
Like read this, read this, go get this.
So I immediately went to Barnes & Noble and grabbed all kinds of books, you know, codependent
no more.
You know, I went and got a boundaries book by Dr. Tumson and all of that.
And you know, so I started learning so much about codependency and it was incredible.
It was incredible.
I was like, this is my tribe.
Yes.
You understand me.
It's unbelievable when those, like I say with those rose color glasses come off, it is the
most freeing thing in the world.
Like, let me ask you because speaking of that, because we know codependency is sneaky as hell.
Oh yeah.
It starts when we're little, we don't realize that it's happening and we think that's just
who we're supposed to be.
Right?
So for you, based on what you've learned and what you've been experiencing and what
you've been hearing over the years, what are some of for you the most common misconceptions
about codependency that you wish more people understood?
That were weak.
I talk to people all the time.
And that's the reason I do what I do, honestly, honestly, because when people say, oh, you're
codependent, the head goes down.
No, no, no.
It's their strength, you know, their strength.
We have to be a strong individual.
Yes.
Who live in this world.
So when people say that you're codependent, they put their heads down and it's just like,
no, there's no weak.
There's no, the weakness in it is us not being strong for ourselves.
Right?
Say it again for the people in the back.
Louder for the people in the back.
Please.
Strong for ourselves.
That's the only weakness in it.
Other than that, you have put all the people on your shoulders and you're able to handle
it.
You can, you can look at a situation and know exactly what needs to happen.
Yep.
You should figure it out on their own, but you've already figured it out.
Right?
And you're literally raising yourself.
Oh my gosh.
All of the time.
It is.
And that's the one thing that got me growing up.
Honestly, people will be like, don't worry about her.
She's good.
Yes.
No, no, no.
Don't worry.
She's good.
And that's the strength, right?
That comes with it.
The weakness in it is you just don't know when to say no.
That's right.
You don't know when to have those boundaries and stand on them.
You don't know how to listen to your body.
All of those things can be switched.
Yeah.
Learn those characters.
I call them, they will, I will say flaws.
You find, you find those character flaws and you build on them, but there is no weakness
in codependency as far as I'm concerned.
That's the way I look at it.
That's, and that's the reason I do what I do because I want people to know you don't
have to be ashamed.
Right?
That's right.
It's happened for a reason.
It happened for a reason.
So you got to go back to that childhood and figure out what that is.
That's right.
Once you figure that out, then you just build on it.
It's like a pyramid, you know, the very bottom, it's get your base.
Get your base.
Just keep building and building and building.
When you get to that top, baby.
That's when it opens up.
That's when life, you see that life completely different.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
It's like the, it's a hotel in Vegas.
It's a pyramid.
It has this light.
It comes out of the top of it, right?
Yeah.
It's like, oh my God, I am shining.
It's that spiritual awakening.
It's when you realize you don't have to please anybody and the people that are most advantageous
of you pleasing them are the ones that take the hardest when you finally put up boundaries.
Absolutely.
You know, I say it all the time and I've said it in my other episodes as well.
Shame is not an emotion.
Shame is unlearned behavior.
And if like anything else you've learned it when we're young, we all have, you can unlearn
it.
Absolutely.
You can unlearn those character flaws that were ingrained in you when you were little
because of survival and trauma.
And now you can take the steps to rebuild yourself as you use so eloquently the pyramid,
rebuild yourself and shine.
And you all, there's no timeline in your life when you can do that.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
It's such a beautiful thing.
And I try to, yes, one of the things that I talk about when I'm speaking to people because
I'm like, if, if I am what codependency looks like, you know, I'm recovering, don't get
me wrong, I'm recovering codependence.
Of course.
But baby, I have always, I've always been happy.
It was just learning, learning what was what.
Now again, the sadness comes in not knowing when to have the boundaries.
Yes.
But when you, when you sit back and you can look at, I don't have to rescue everywhere.
Not everybody's not responsibility.
That's right.
I don't have to feel guilty because you did something.
Yeah.
It's not on me.
Yep.
I just, I get so excited just thinking about it.
Yes, I'm loyal, but only so far.
Ooh, I get chills.
Okay.
I am loyal to myself more than I am loyal to you.
It takes balls.
I'm here to tell you and the biggest thing.
Okay.
I wish I had them with me.
I bought these glasses.
The glasses literally say no.
No.
I put on my no glasses on somebody immediately.
Well, I'll tell you what's funny.
My last episode, the, the wonderful girl came out, she had Prosecco earrings and now you
with your no glasses.
I'm going to have to get me a whole set of everything because I'm feeling it all.
I love it.
Yes, absolutely.
But you know, I want, I want your audience to know that boundaries, they are set to make
sure that you have a healthy relationship with everyone.
You are teaching people how to treat you.
You are being the example and the biggest person that you have to have boundaries with
is yourself.
Because if you don't honor your own boundaries, people will run all over you.
Yes, they will.
You have to wonder, you have to have an understanding about the expectations because the people
who are angry about your boundaries are the ones who have been able to live a wonderful
life because you did not have them.
That's exactly it.
Yes.
Exactly it.
You have to expect those individuals to growl when you start setting your boundaries.
You have to expect it because that's how you know you're doing it right.
That's right.
I always give people the bear, the bear concept.
I was just going to say, you mentioned that.
I was going to tell you, please tell the audience this, your bear concept because it's
fabulous.
Yes.
If you have been giving a bear honey and sweets and all the things that's bad for it,
and then all of a sudden one day you go, no, you know what?
I've not done this bear any justice.
I've put all of this weight on myself with all of this honey on my back.
Let me give the bear what it needs, which is berries, fruits, nuts.
Okay, fruits and nuts, we'll just say the fruits and nuts.
And then you tell the bear, I'm sorry.
This no longer serves me.
From here on out, I need to give you fruits and nuts.
And the bear goes, no, that's not what I want though.
I like the honey.
No, we're going to do the honey.
We're going to keep doing it.
And I'm like, no, no, no, but the honey's not good for me.
For me, I have to give you.
This is your choice.
Nuts, nuts, that's what you get.
And the bear goes, no, I said, I want the honey.
And now you've been giving it to me.
That's what I expect for you.
You cannot, you cannot give in.
That's right.
You let that bear know, okay, if you want something for me, you can have fruit or you
can have nuts.
That's it.
And that bear is going to growl.
Give me the honey and try to intimidate you.
That's right.
To make you back, go back to who you were.
Yeah.
Don't go in that shell.
No, you stand tall on that boundary and say, okay, this is what I'm offering.
You get this or nothing or nothing or nothing and feel strong when you walk away.
If they say no, stand 10 toes down on that no, because I guarantee you when you walk away
and that bear goes, a gets nothing.
He's either going to come back and say, you know what, I'll take the, I'll take the, the
I'll take what I can get.
I'll take it, but I'll take what I can get.
Yeah.
Or the bear is going to say, you know what, you're no longer serving me.
And guess what?
That's beautiful too.
Amen.
That bear was only there to use you for your honey.
Yep.
I say that too.
I'm like, you know what, if they're the ones that get the most upset and then all of a
sudden they're not there anymore, it's because, you know, for a fact, they were not supposed
to be there the whole time.
They were only using you for what you could do for them.
It was a one side of relationship to begin with.
The people that love you and will be there for you the most of the people that will accept
your boundaries even when it's hard for them.
They may take an adjustment period.
They may say, wow, I'm not used to this.
Is she really going to stick with this?
Yes.
Right?
Let's weigh this out.
I'll tiptoe sometimes and see if this is still going to happen.
Maybe not consciously because, you know, we do think sometimes we're so used to doing
things, right?
And I think that's fantastic.
It's just such a fantastic analogy because it just makes me say to myself too, it makes
you look at all the different people in your past that have come and gone and you go,
huh?
In hindsight, was it something that I wasn't doing anymore?
Right.
Or was that just because it was supposed to be for that season and it's not?
So it does make you also hypercritical of some of your other past relationships, which
I think is what's so important about that healing and learning to move on from those
things.
And it's just very important because if people honor your boundaries, it's such a beautiful
relationship.
Yeah.
And I think that's what I'm talking about all the time.
Boundaries are not just one sided.
You know, if I sit down with someone about boundaries, what, you know, what's good for
me and what's healthy for me, I always ask them.
So tell me what's healthy for you.
Yes.
Because that's important to me.
I want it to be as important to me as my boundaries are for you.
Right.
I'm honoring each other's boundaries.
It's just letting people know what road we can go down together.
And if we're not, if we're not thinking alike, thinking the same, then maybe we're not
good for one another.
And if we're not, that's okay.
It's okay.
And also boundaries are fluid.
Just because this is my boundary today does not mean I can't change that boundary tomorrow.
Because if I'm changing, that's a good point.
Because I'm not who I was last week or the year before or 10 years ago.
Of course my boundaries are going to change as well.
Right.
So it's okay.
And when those things change, you just have the conversation.
And then you can decide, and the person can decide whether they want to be in this.
You don't have to say in this, I will not, I promise I will never ever beg anyone to
deal with me.
That's right.
And not anymore.
I am an incredible individual.
Incredible.
So if you decide, if you deem that I am not worthy to be in your presence, okay, because
I promise you're going to be the one to miss that.
I have gotten into saying that over the, just the past couple years as I've been on my healing
journey, it's so incredible you say that.
Because there were times I've said it to myself and I'm like, maybe that sounds awful.
But like in my head, but I have gotten to the point of saying that whether it's a male
relationship or which I've had a few since my separation, but where I'm like, you know
what?
And to my ex as well, I'm like, you know what?
I'm freaking amazing.
Like, look what you've had in the past.
Absolutely.
Look what you screwed up in the present.
Yes.
Do you, like, did you not know who I was?
I said, well, guess what?
Now you're going to see this up leveled person.
Absolutely.
Who is 10 times more amazing than I was because I let myself get to that point where I wasn't
and I didn't feel that way anymore.
And I think it's amazing that you said that because you just saying that now made me feel
better.
See, that's what I'm talking about.
Thank you.
It did.
I'm so glad.
I mean, it's, it's, it's a, once you've done the work, like Lord knows I was not
here when I first started at all.
Right.
You know, you have to go through the low self-esteem where, you know, you have to go through the
affirmations.
I am wonderfully and beautifully made.
I am, you know, I'm the head and not the tail.
You know, let me tell you the thing that you need to do.
I had a woman on my podcast yesterday and she, I said, you know, I speak about the affirmations
all the time.
I love them.
I write, oh my gosh.
But she said the other thing that you can do is go to the Bible and pull scriptures.
Okay.
Yes.
Put them on your mirror because I will tell you how great you are.
Yes.
Mother, when I was little, I had this little magnet and she was keeping it on the refrigerator.
I had my name on the top.
Where had Tammy?
Didn't have Tammy.
Lord knows you can't find Tammy anywhere.
Anyway, but it had Tammy on it.
And it said, I know I'm somebody because God don't make no junk.
Not God doesn't make any junk.
God don't make no junk.
Love it.
Okay.
So she was pouring that into me as a baby and I didn't realize it.
And I happened to be going through like a box or something a few years ago and I found
it and I said, oh my gosh, thank you.
That's right.
I know I'm somebody because God made no junk.
Love that.
Telling your audience, you are somebody.
Don't you let anybody tell you that you are less than that's right.
The only way that it can be true is if you believe that.
That's right.
You have the power into yourself.
Radiate it.
I was in the bathroom one day washing my face and it was the first time that I actually
felt this from the depth of my soul.
I looked at myself and I said, oh my gosh, I am so in love with you.
Oh, and I, it's incredible.
I could feel it all over my body.
You just got me emotional.
It's incredible.
Like emotional right now.
It's incredible.
It's, it's, it's a, to be in that place.
Well, I could really, because I'm telling you, I don't like, I, I've been in a place
where I don't like my body.
I don't like the skin tone.
I don't like my eyes.
I don't like my lips.
I don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't.
You know what?
Hmm.
When you, when you have, first of all, people who are codependent, they have big hearts.
They just do.
Unfortunately, it's true.
It's just what it is.
We just give, give, give, give, give.
Absolutely.
People just take.
The answer to it and that's what, that's what the crime is.
But you know what?
If you can take that and mold it into that and put it inside of you.
Super power.
Super power and understand that people, like one of the things that I had to remember, and
it really got me in the headspace that when you are codependent and you do things for
people when they should be doing it for themselves, it's actually a disservice to them.
You have to think about the butterfly.
And I was, I was, my mother became sober for the first time, for the first time when I
was 15.
She sat me down and she said, baby, I want to sit down with you and talk to you about
mommy has to go to the hospital and I'm either going to be gone 30 days or I'm just going
to be gone at night.
And I was just like, what kind of illness is this?
Right.
30 days.
Like what is explained to me what this alcoholism is, you know, especially because you weren't
aware that anything even brought out.
Yeah.
And she put me, she was smart enough to see the smart woman.
So my girl, she put me in alateen.
What alateen is now Alanon.
Alanon.
Yes.
So I was 15 in this and they bought me a book about, you know, alcoholism for your parents
and all of that.
And in the back of this book, it talked about how your parent was a caterpillar.
And then they were in a cocoon and then they became this beautiful butterfly.
Right.
But as a codependent, we have to remember that when we do things for people that they
should be doing for themselves, it is not helpful.
If you think about these people being in a cocoon, right, they've already gone through
the, they're not a caterpillar anymore.
They're in the cocoon and you see this movement.
And it looks like they're struggling.
And so you, what you want to do is you want to help them break the, break out, break it,
then they can get out.
Yes.
But what you don't understand is that the fluttering is them strengthening their wings
so that no ways that's them strengthening their wings.
So when you break it, you retard the progress of them becoming a butterfly.
They have to do it themselves.
They have to struggle.
So let them be strong enough for them.
Pray for them.
While they're in there and they're just getting stronger.
And when they're strong enough, they'll break out and they will fly.
That's why they say you can't change a person.
You cannot do it for them.
You can't do it for someone with an addiction, with a mental illness, with anything.
They have to want to be able to do it themselves and all you can do is support them.
That's right.
And you, they, because if they're doing it for you, it's not going to last.
That's right.
You have to do it for themselves.
They have to do the work.
They have to do the healing, all the things.
And that actually is leading me to my next thought in your experience based on your experiences.
I know in your teachings, you use obviously tools like boundaries.
You also talk about counseling and self love.
So for you, was there a specific tool that made the biggest impact for you?
Other than your no glasses, because I love those.
Listening to my body was imperative.
Amen.
I didn't realize that the body tells the tale.
Anything that you're feeling, if there's like, okay, I used to be upset with my husband.
And you know, co-dependence do not like to argue.
And if you do away out of the, you just, you're going off because you've held it.
You've held in so much, right?
That's right.
So don't like confrontation.
So what would happen is I would get a lump in my throat and that would be because I wasn't
speaking.
That's your throat chakra.
Absolutely.
That's your throat chakra.
Yes.
Or if I needed to have a conversation and I knew it was coming home, I would get anxiety
in my belly.
For me, it was my stomach.
It was my stomach always.
Yes.
You know, so if you listen to your body, you know that, you know when things are not right.
You know when you need to free something, you may need to figure out what it is that
you need to free, but you definitely need to free something.
Something is not right.
Something is not aligned.
So if I just listen to my body and try to figure out, well, what is it?
Okay.
Body, what are you telling me?
Let's talk about it.
What is that feeling that I'm having?
Where is it coming from?
Where did that trigger come from?
Did it come because he's coming home?
Is it because it did come home?
I mean, did it happen because of a conversation that we need to have when he comes home?
Yeah.
Why is this happening?
What do I need to do to free this feeling in my body?
Yeah.
Thank you.
Right.
Amen.
I actually, I wrote a, I have a workbook.
It's called, it's a codependent me workbook.
Oh, that's awesome.
It goes through all of the things codependency.
Right.
So like the whole thing about the body and all of that, it's in here.
It goes through what is codependency, your goal plan, excuse me, establishing your boundaries,
when to detach.
It has journal entries.
It has a body check in where you can, oh, that body check in.
Wow.
People don't talk about codependent slips.
Slip are just like when you fall off the wagon.
Yes.
Where you get so in, you get, because this is the thing when we do for people, we get
this adrenaline rush.
Right.
That's right.
That dopamine kick.
That dopamine, yes.
It feels good.
Yeah.
So when you know what that feels like, it's like, hmm, I think I just did something.
I feel it.
Right.
You may have just had a slip.
It's okay.
Let's jump back on.
I talk about that in this episode coming out on Tuesday, exactly that, because I talk about
surviving breakups, which talks about specifically how you can fall back into old patterns.
You can get back with your exes.
Sometimes it's right and sometimes it's not, but we have slip ups and we have slip backs
and that happens.
And realistically, it's about realizing when you're falling back.
And if that's what you want to do, or if you need to course correct and go back because
any relationship, not just romantic, but even a relationship with yourself, is important
to understand what's going on there.
And we're allowed even relationships with ourselves to slip up.
So exactly what you're saying.
It's wonderful.
Yes.
So we've got that.
And then I've got affirmations and a gratitude, you know, gratitude, um, workbook, work sheets,
excuse me.
Well, I don't know where you sell that, but if it's on your website, but send me the link
because I want one.
Oh, absolutely.
I want one.
I want one actually.
Oh, I want one.
Thank you.
So it is on my website, the codependent, no, it's on codependentme.org.
And I'll be putting all that in the show notes as well.
Thank you.
Yes, of course.
Yes.
And then you can also get it on Amazon as well, but I love that.
And then I've also, I wrote a co-wrote a book with my mom.
So as we were going through this beautiful situation, she was kind of fresh in recovery
this last time.
She's been sober now for 13 years.
Congratulations.
That's amazing.
And that's not easy.
That is work every day.
It is work every single day.
She makes it look good.
Don't get me wrong.
She definitely, it's, it's, she works it, but probably about maybe eight, nine years
ago I was in the shower and God downloads to me when I'm around water.
So normally if I'm writing or something like that, I go to Tampa, you know, so, and then
in the shower downloads.
So it was like this download of this book and I was just like, oh my gosh, I jumped out
and I'm trying to paper and pen and I'm writing and writing and writing.
And I tell my mom, I go, mom, God told me about this book that we need to write because
it's going to tell you, tell about your alcoholism that led to my codependency.
And it's going to be fantastic.
And she said, I didn't tell me that.
I said, oh, okay.
Okay.
That's fine.
I was like, well, just take my, take my word for it.
I was like, okay, I kept, you know, I kept, I started writing because I know my God.
I know his voice.
I know what he says, right?
So I told one, I'm going to tell you, I let her go on six months later.
She walks in, she walks in my room and she goes, Tam, it's time.
And I go, time for what?
And she goes, it's time to write the book.
And I go, my four chapters written.
I'm good.
I was like, you wrote anyway.
I was going to believe my God.
That's right.
I do.
And we wrote separately and we took about three months and then we got an editor to put our
chapters together and we have this beautiful book called God Turn Mommy's Wine Into Water.
Oh, yes.
It's so awesome.
And it just the title alone.
I know.
Don't judge a book by its cover.
Absolutely not.
I was like, I felt that in my pit, like in my stomach.
Like that was just like, oh my God.
Yes, because I'm so grateful.
I'm so grateful.
But it tells, you know, her childhood, the different things that she went through, it
tells my childhood and, you know, so forth.
And it is a beautiful song and dance and I'm so proud of it because a lot of people used
to ask me all the time, how do you, how did you become codependent?
And I'm like, it comes from childhood.
There's always some type of situation that happened most times, maybe not all the time,
but most times it's when children were put in a place where they weren't able to be the
child, they had to take an adult role.
And people, people will say the adult failed them and they had to take over.
I don't like to say that because I feel as though adults do, most parents do the best
if they can.
Amen.
What they have.
Right.
And that's the reason that my mom reacted and was the person that she was in childhood,
in my childhood, right?
And it probably led to her childhood, it was because of her childhood.
So I'm not out to judge her.
I am out to keep the flashlight on me and heal me.
Yeah.
So that's what I want people to know.
And I say that a lot in my, in my coaching, keep the flashlight on you.
If you keep the flashlight on you, amen, then you will shine.
You know, it's so funny that you say that cause I've always, I've thought of a lot of
ways.
I've always said for me, it took me a long time into my thirties to stop blaming my mom.
Because we didn't have a very good relationship growing up because she was raised the same
thing with a divorced mother in the sixties.
She was a kind of a party girl.
My, you know, so my mom was kind of, even though she was raised by her grandmother, she
was also kind of the big sister.
She had to work early.
She had to leave all those things that, you know, raised very hard.
And then now in the eighties, you know, you're having kids and you're raising your kids just
as hard as, you know, we know culturally you're there to be seen, not heard, you know, you're
not going to embarrass me.
You're going to, there was no, there was no connection really other than this is my mom.
Right.
You love your parents because they're your parents, but that was it.
And it was like a lot of corporal punishment, a lot of corporal punishment, right?
At least on my side.
And I look back at what you just said reminded me of something that, that I don't even think
I've ever said on my podcast.
I've told people that know me and we think about what is it about?
When is it in our childhoods that we can all of a sudden we know there was a shift and
we didn't, we don't realize until we're older that this is what causes this stuff.
But for me, I was about 11 years old and I just want to tell this story really quick
because it ties in so much to what you were just saying because it helps people, I think
really think back to where was that shift in my life.
If I can remember it, cause a lot of people can't remember it, that I really felt I'm
in this alone.
And for me, I was about 11, 11, about 11 years old.
I was like fourth grade, right?
And I had my first little crush and my first little boy, like my first little boyfriend,
you know, whatever you're a little 11 year old boyfriend is whatever.
And we were together for like a month or again, whatever that means at 11.
And I remember one day I come into school, right?
And I find out my oldest friends, well, he doesn't want to be considered my boyfriend
anymore, whatever it was.
I was heartbroken.
I was devastated.
I'm 11.
I like this boy so much.
I mean, like I'm all funny looking and you know, chubby and small myself, whatever
the case would be at 11, you're all awkward, right?
And I remember going after school in the room with my sister, we shared a room in our apartment
in New York.
And I said, I'm really sad about this.
My sister's nine.
Like what is she going to do and say, just sit there and listen, right?
Like she was like, okay, eight, nine years old.
And I said, I feel like I need to talk to mom about this.
And she was like, okay, good luck.
Cause even then she was like, yeah, I don't know what you think that's going to help,
right?
But you want to go to your parents for comfort regardless of how of anything else, regardless
of what you know of them, who they are, you want comfort from your parents.
I remember going into her room and she's sitting in the bed having her after work snacks.
She's watching her novellas and I walk in and I said, mom, can you see how vividly I
remember every detail because it stuck to me my whole life.
And I walked in the room and I said, mom, can I talk to you for a minute?
And she said, yeah, make it quick.
I'm watching my show.
It's like, okay.
So she pauses the show.
And I said, so something about like I broke up, I got broken up, but he said, you don't
want to be with me, whatever I said to her.
And she literally just looked at me and was like, don't worry about some stupid boy.
Now leave me alone.
I'm watching my show.
And I walked out the room and after that I walked to my sister's room and I remember
realizing at that moment I'm alone in this.
I was going to say she had no clue what she did was let her, she let you know I can't
count on you with something that's very dear to me.
It may not seem important to you, but it's very important to me.
Yep.
I can't trust you with my feelings.
Right.
You didn't see me.
That's right.
Oh.
And I'll never forget it because that was exactly the moment I said I can't ever go
to her again for these things.
Oh my goodness.
I was 11 years old.
So it just made me think about your situation where you were saying you were 10 and you
just all of a sudden went into this mode where you realized this is what my role is.
This is now how I have to be.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And it's, and it didn't, you know, it's so crazy because it just continued.
You know, it was definitely confirmed.
It was confirmed when she would fall asleep with a cigarette in her hand and burn the
couch up under her.
You know what I mean?
My mother went through the same thing with her mother.
Yeah.
And it's unfortunate.
And you know, it's just like when me and mom after we wrote the book, we, we crossed
the, you read it, you read it.
And so I had to tell her, you're going to read things that you don't know about.
And because I lived my own, I signed.
Of course.
I, they never had her signature at my school.
Never.
You know, you would think a mom would be like, am I supposed to sign some paperwork?
Yeah.
And I was like, no, no, report cards, everything.
She never, I did everything.
You raised yourself.
I did.
Yes.
It was like there's certain things that you're going to, that you're going to read that you
don't know about.
I know you don't.
Not because you didn't love me, not because, you know what I'm saying?
But it's what it is.
Right.
I'm going to, and this is what I told her.
I said, I want you to know that I don't want you to feel guilty about anything because
I love me.
I'm an amazing individual because of what I went through.
Yes.
Some of it had to have a whole lot of therapy.
Oh hell yeah.
But guess what?
I'm amazing.
Yeah.
I am amazing.
And there is no guarantee that I would be who I am today if any of that had been easier.
I'll say it again.
So free yourself now before you read any of that.
Yeah.
And growing up probably until 35, we just weren't close.
I was always very close to my aunt who was like a mom to me.
And she had some jealousy there.
You know, my aunt is like her younger sister by like three or four years.
We were like, oh my gosh, like that was, she was everything to me.
Yeah.
It was hard for her to see, but she was the one that was there when I needed.
Yeah, of course.
So you know, but me and mom today, we have this beautiful relationship.
I'm grateful to be able to say that we were able to sit down and have certain conversations
and be able to free her from her guilt, even though like certain times, like she will never,
I'll never, I won't say I won't tell her about it, but I'll tell her not to listen to this
interview.
Not because it's not a great interview.
Not because it can't help other people, but because her guilt.
Yes.
And really it hits her when she hears about what I went through as a child.
Yeah.
It really tears her up.
Yeah.
So I'm like, no, you're not, you're not that, that 18 year old that had me.
That's right.
You're not that person anymore.
So you can feel that guilt.
I need for you to be who you are today.
Exactly.
59 year old, beautiful individual.
And that's such a blessing, right?
That loves her grandchildren, loves her great-grands, loves me in ways that, you know, we talk all
the time is so beautiful, but I'm lucky.
I'm lucky when it comes to that.
I have so many friends whose parents will not even see their side.
I know.
You know what I mean?
I know.
They don't even acknowledge the pain that they went through when they were children.
Yeah.
So I'm so grateful for that.
So that is a blessing for me.
However, I think that me being able to free her and forgive her made it easier for me
to move on in my life and be who I am.
Of course.
And you were able to express your boundaries.
Yes.
You were able to say, what now?
I'm older now.
I know better now.
And now it's my turn.
Absolutely.
It is my turn.
It's like I've taken care of you and these situations long enough.
It's my turn.
You know, it's so funny that you mention about there are people that don't talk about it.
Parents that don't acknowledge it, you know, and I'm the same way.
Like I don't even really tell my mother.
She knows I do my podcast obviously, but I don't really tell her anymore.
Go make sure you go listen to these episodes.
I'm like, if you want to, you know what's there.
Go for it, whatever.
But I have to say ahead of time as well, I talk about my life.
I talk about my past.
These are real events.
They're not things I'm making up.
And a lot of times because of denial, parents have a lot of denial and guilt.
They, they, they'll sit there and go, I can't believe you said that out loud.
Well, guess what?
It's also cathartic for me.
This is this, we didn't have social media back then.
And yet we were all raised somehow the same.
Explain this.
Like I still like it, it's an off.
I have always found myself in awe.
When I'm like, how do people around the world do the same exact things?
We didn't have no way to keep in touch with each other.
It just was the way generationally things happened to this day, you know, or not really
now.
I think my mom is more open minded now as, as she's gotten older.
But just a few years ago, she would look at me, my sister and be like, Oh, you're such
little liars.
And I used to be like, we're both lying.
Like because it was that denial that she had from shame, right?
And I got to a point when I started saying to myself, I'm not blaming you anymore.
Right.
I can't anything that I've done in my adult years, whereas my choices.
Yes, I made certain choices because I didn't know better and all I saw was certain things.
And I thought that's the way things were supposed to be.
But at a certain point as an adult, you're making your own choices.
And now you have to come through those.
My dad just recently, we started having some really deep conversations and he would sit
there and cry because of all the guilty felt of not knowing things.
We were kids that we went through whatever.
And I was like, dad, I get it.
But what's done is done.
You know, we raise our parents just as much as they raise us.
It's like kids raise, I look now and I'm like, I'm just going by the seat of my damn pants
raising these kids.
I'm like, there's no way in hell.
I'm perfect.
I'm sure I've traumatized them more ways than I'd like to admit.
And I'm aware of it.
So I try to fix it every day, but imagine not being open enough to be aware of it.
Right.
That's it.
Because you know, the goal is to live authentically ourselves.
Right.
Yeah.
They didn't know that.
No, they were, they were people pleasing.
They were trying to keep up with the Joneses and, you know, do this and do that.
And you have to be this and be that.
That's it's a lot.
Assimilate generational traumas, passed downs.
I mean, keep your mouth quiet.
Never speak about what's going on in your household.
Yes.
What is in this house, this house, if that's, that is so sad.
You know, and I know, I know that, you know, the trauma is passed down because, you know,
if we think about our grandmothers or in grandfathers, there are certain things, it may be a little
bit different than our parents, but it's certain things that we saw in them that we just thought
our grandmothers is what it is.
You know what I mean?
Exactly.
My grandmother would do things like, okay, so she had a fence around our house and when
friends would come over, we'd walk home from school.
She'd go, you need to stand on the inside of the gate and they have to stand on the outside
of the gate.
Like, what, what, what does that mean?
What does that mean?
Right.
But you were used to it.
But now that I'm older, I'm like, something must have happened to her and somehow she
feels like that's a protection.
She was protecting me by having me on the inside of the gate.
Now I don't know why she wouldn't protect my friends.
But okay.
She didn't want any responsibility.
As soon as someone's inside that gate, they're her responsibility.
Something happens.
Absolutely.
So that there is something from her childhood or her upbringing that made that happen.
Right.
So it's so many reasons that we do so many different things.
It's just, you know, but we can only continue to try to be better, try to grow and teach
our children to be authentically themselves.
That's right.
When they want to say no, give them the right to say no.
Full stop.
Give them boundaries, give them the right to have boundaries.
You know, one thing that like, okay, my grandkids come over.
They're like, I'm like, come give team my hug.
No, I don't really want to hug you.
Exactly.
That's a huge one for me.
Their parents will go.
You better, you better not tell them they have to come over here.
They don't have to hug me.
If they don't feel like that's what they want to do in this moment.
It doesn't, it doesn't mean they don't love me.
It means that they don't want to hug me right now.
How high is it that we put so much weight?
It's not disrespectful for them to feel the way that they feel at that moment.
That's right.
It's okay.
Now what you need to do is go, well, is everything okay?
Yeah.
That's the question.
Yeah.
Don't, don't punish them for something.
I say it all the time.
I say all the time.
I say, go say, how do your grandparents, they're here or whatever the case would be.
And my son will be in his room and he'll run out.
And at that point, if he could walk out and be like, hi, Leila, or run and give his
grandmother a hug, it just, there's no, there's none of that for it.
Because I use, I say that all the time is that we have a, we had a bad habit when little
was like a kiss and hug on people we didn't know when, and your creepy uncles and uncles,
quote unquote, the ones that weren't actually your uncles, but just were around, you know,
when you always had to have somebody lipstick on your face and touching you.
And I was like, it didn't matter how close you were.
There was sometimes you would just, you see how many kids are always like, ugh.
So you're so, and so always kissing me on the mouth or always putting their face.
And you just have to accept it.
That's traumatizing.
Absolutely.
That is not respecting their boundaries.
That's right.
Because a lot of times when we were growing up, kids weren't seen as people.
Thank you.
I refuse, I refuse to have mine do that.
I'm not gonna do it.
So let me ask you, because based again, I'll say it on your experience and all the interviews
you've done and everything you've heard and learned, many people feel so stuck in their
patterns up until God knows what age is, right?
So what's one small step someone can take today to start breaking free?
One small step that they can take today.
Now, some people may not feel like this is a small step, but being real with yourself.
Be real with yourself.
You know, that's the first step to the work.
Because in the work, unless you are real with yourself, if you are lying to yourself,
then you can't help yourself.
That's right.
When I first started this journey, I was told that I needed to look in the mirror and tell
myself about myself.
And that's just not the good stuff.
That's not Uggur.
You gotta keep smiling.
You gotta have nice personality.
Oh, you love heart.
It had to be real.
It was you're a liar.
You're a manipulator, right?
Yeah.
In order to heal a thing, you have to name a thing.
Self-awareness.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Be real with you.
You know, we are beautiful all with who we are.
Absolutely.
If you ever change this again, you are beautiful in who you are.
Yes.
Right?
But get better.
Everyday.
Be real with yourself.
Be real with you.
If you have certain flaws in order to change it, you have to actually see it.
Yeah.
You have to acknowledge it.
You know, it may not feel like a small step, but I feel there's no where it is.
Oh, it is.
With you.
It is.
It does take time, you know, to look in that mirror.
And so many of us have gone through things that we look in the mirror and we do not recognize
the person staring back at us.
And whether we never knew who that was or we lost the person we were or we're trying
to say or we let someone else suck that soul and that spirit out of us and all you see
is hollow.
I saw hollow eyes.
I was like, I was heavier and so hollow eyes and I'm like, who the hell is this whiny ass
little person when I knew that was never who I was?
And then I realized it was because I allowed the influence of other people's stuff and
problems on me and it sucked me dry and it forced me to look deep inside.
You know, and I think what you're saying is spot on for what it's worth.
Self-awareness is hard as hell.
It is.
That's how you know what, when you don't want to deal with this, you don't want to, you
know, have this in your life and you have to take a hard look at the people that are
around you.
Yeah.
Because we surround ourselves with what we're comfortable with.
And if you've been a people, please, or all of your life, you're dealing with people who
you, who want to be pleased.
Yeah.
That's not who you should have around you.
And so many people are so scared of what that means.
Who am I going to lose?
Am I going to be lonely?
Let him go.
And you realize, you know what?
Being lonely and being alone are two completely different things.
Oh, I'm going to scare you.
Completely.
I would rather be alone and happy than be lonely with a thousand people around me.
And I think the other thing is real quick, I know I'm talking a lot, but.
Oh, absolutely not.
Thank you.
That's what you're here for.
People need to know what it feels like to be genuinely happy.
Like go back in your head and think about what, again, that's that body.
What did it feel like in my body when I was genuinely happy?
I don't care if you got to go back to being 13.
That's right.
Go back and find it.
For me, it was when I had this, I was in this healthy chapter of my life.
Every morning I would wake up and I would feel sunshine come out of my chest.
Every morning.
And it's kind of like you realize that things are happening when they're happening, but
you don't.
When it goes away, you don't really realize it until it happens again.
It's just like that in a while.
So when I had that good day where I woke up and had that feeling, I said, Oh, I used to
feel this way all the time.
What do I need to do in my life to ensure that at least 90% of my days, I wake up with
that sunshine.
You're waking up the same way.
And the reality is there's so much evil in this world.
I mean, we're seeing it every single day.
We don't have a clue what tomorrow's going to look like.
We don't know what later today is going to look like now.
What's going on, let alone a year, two, three, four years anyway.
We don't know, right?
So what's like trying to do what you can to love and protect yourself and the people around
you right now is the most we can focus on.
You know, it's like we need to fight for what we feel is worth it.
And that includes more importantly, most importantly yourself.
You can't take care of anybody else properly.
You can't be your best self and take care of other people by giving everything to them.
And it's such an important message.
You need to, I always say, do what makes you happy in an unselfish way, right?
Because people here do what makes you happy.
They go, Oh, I'm just going to, I'm just going to take care of me.
I don't care about anybody else.
That's not what it means.
There has to be balance.
It has to be balance, right?
You have to feel like for you, what you're doing for yourself is not just making you
happy, but is napping a detriment to anybody else.
And there is, it's, it's a balance.
And I think that as long as somebody is self-aware enough, they can, they can make that, that
distinction and live genuinely and authentically, you know?
So how do you personally stay motivated and committed to your healing journey?
Cause we know it's not, we know it's not linear.
It comes in waves.
And we're not always perfect every day.
God knows I had just this weekend, people looked at me and were probably like, damn,
she is being a witch today, you know?
And I'm like, like I'm aware.
I'm that self-aware.
It doesn't mean I'm changing it this way.
But that's how I feel.
But I'm able to sit back at the end of the day and go, what was causing that?
Yeah, exactly.
So to keep me on track, which again, we all have our ups and downs.
We have good days.
It's community.
I think having your community and being able to talk to people like you.
I have a, I have a Facebook group.
You do?
I just joined it.
No, thank you.
I did.
I co-dependent me.
And there, there are times that I just go on there and talk, talk about my day.
And what's beautiful is that people will respond.
I was going through the same thing or keep your head up.
You know, all the things.
And it lets, it allows me to know that I'm not alone.
You're never alone in whatever you're going through, whether it's a, you're not the only
one having a bad day.
You're not the only one having a great day.
You're not the only one that's might be so close to depression.
You're never alone.
That's why it's best to always talk about it to someone.
Talk about it.
It'll, it'll put you back on track.
Yeah.
There are so many moments, I think in people's lives and hours as well that again, it goes
back to the way we were raised about not speaking up, that throat chakra stays closed
because the reality is we think people don't understand.
You feel in your circle, nobody understands.
You have to widen your circle.
Sometimes you have to open up that circle and say, Oh my goodness, I know this woman
lives for example in Nashville.
Right.
And I am a New Jersey.
Right.
But it's almost like we were raised a lot of ways, exactly the same and being there
to have the same experiences and also different experiences, but help each other along those
roads and all those healing journeys with support.
And that's for, that's really for anything that, you know, and especially online on Facebook,
you can find really like-minded people, you know, with good hearts who are just trying
to find like-minded people.
Hey, man, I promise, that's, it's the reason I started it, honestly.
Yeah.
Because I, so many people around me didn't understand codependency.
And you know, I went to Coda, which is codependence anonymous.
I didn't know that was a thing, by the way.
I could have used that.
Yeah, it's phenomenal.
But the tribe here really wasn't my tribe.
You know, it was older white women.
Oh, yeah.
That was just altogether talking real slow.
And I, I was like, this is, this is making me want to move away from it, rather.
So I started my own group through Coda.
And it was at that library, it was like 2019 when I did this.
And people started coming, like from different universities, professors started knowing about
it and started bringing their students, learning more about codependency.
Because again, it was, it was just, just word flying around, but nobody really understood
it.
Yeah.
So when the pandemic hit and we couldn't meet in person anymore, that's when I started
the podcast because I needed, that's my community.
That's a community.
And that means, and it's so many people out there in need of help that, you know, that
need to know that they matter.
But again, you matter and your story matters.
That's what I, that's my tagline.
That's right.
And your story matters.
Everybody matters.
Yeah.
And I don't know it.
That is the biggest problem.
And the thing is, it's hard sometimes it does, it takes time to find the right community
for you.
You want people who it's kind of hard sometimes to listen to some people that you're like,
I get that no one is taken away from your journey and you're healing.
I just can't relate to it in the same way.
And I have to have people who understand where I'm coming from that I can support the same
way.
Cause I just can't relate to this, you know, and that's okay.
And that's okay.
You know, everybody's not for everybody.
That's right.
There's eight billion people in the world.
You can find as many as you need.
And I think that's what's so beautiful.
We would just allow ourselves permission to not have to get along with everyone.
It doesn't mean hate them.
It doesn't mean that, you know, that's right.
No, that there's going to be a fight.
It's just, you're not my thing.
I don't like, you know, pepperoni pizza.
It doesn't mean that, you know, pizza should, you know, feel ashamed.
It's okay.
I like the mushroom.
It's all right.
You know,
We can have that community.
I'm telling you the mushroom eaters pizza community.
I'm down.
I love it.
That's really funny.
See, and the thing is, I know your podcast has helped so many people.
You have so many amazing episodes on there years worth of years and years worth of episodes,
you know, and so if you could think back, and this is going to be hard to do.
I'm going to put you on the spot here.
Was there a particular guest or a story that really stuck with you?
Yes.
A few years back.
Oh, that was easier than I thought.
No, it's you.
I bring it up a lot because with the whole codependency thing, you, because it's a codependent
podcast.
Hello.
Um, there's a, I hear a lot of different stories, a lot of different levels of codependency.
And one of the things that really hit me, what was her name?
I think her last name was Florida.
I can't honestly, I can see her face.
She's got purple hair and this beautiful woman.
So they go, you want something you wouldn't forget anyway.
They, um, she told me that in her codependency that she was so, she was so people pleasing
with her husband that somebody asked her one day what her favorite color was and she couldn't
remember.
So I asked her what her favorite meal was.
It couldn't come to mind, but she could tell you what his favorite color favorite meal
was.
She said she was so, she people please so much.
She didn't even know who she was.
You did not know who she was.
I've never heard it to that level.
Well, you don't know what their favorite color is.
That's why I was like, I think it's purple.
Right.
I'm saying, I was going to say it's probably purple, but you know, we all experiment.
So maybe not.
Yes.
So it, it, it, it, it pulled my heart strings when she said that.
That is wild.
Yeah.
That is literally engulfing yourself into some morphing yourself into somebody else
melted herself down and poured herself over her husband, everything that he wanted her
to be.
Oh my goodness.
That's heartbreaking.
And I, and you know what up to this point now, I hope she's been able to really work
through that because that is, you know, we've all had moments, whether it's our husbands,
our kids, our parents, our friends, who knows every relationship where we turn into people
that we don't know who we are.
And we, and we lose parts of ourselves, but to be that just lost.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
She's doing, she's doing, she's doing really good.
She's doing really good.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
So that always jumps in.
Yeah, it's a magnificent, including the one, let's, let's be clear, the one last week
with you.
Oh well.
Oh my gosh.
It was just phenomenal.
You were so open, so transparent, so beautiful.
Thank you.
Oh my God.
Thank you so much.
My family was like, oh, I could kick it with her.
I was like, yeah, I know.
For real?
Hello.
I said I never been to Nashville, but it is on, it is on the list girl.
Come on.
Although to be honest, I might be taking a road trip because I know, right?
It's only, it's only about 12 hours.
My goodness.
I guess you're clear of anything else for a while.
It's fine.
So they get together.
That's right.
I'm good.
But oh my, thank you so much because I, you know, I felt, again, I started laughing.
I was listening back and was like, oh my God.
But what I did tell my sister, and I think, I think she remembers, she told me, she's
listening to her, she's getting lots of whatever the case would be.
And I said, oh my God, Gina, I was like, I think, I was like, I didn't realize, but
it was the most I've ever told of my actual story in one place.
I mean, obviously with a lot of other little details out, right?
Yeah.
But because in my, in my podcast, in this one that you're wonderfully on, I talk of things,
but little bits at a time, I tell stories here and there, but not into as much depth.
And when I heard it back, all these other things in between came back to me and I was
like, oh my gosh, all the things that I felt I should have seen, all the things that I
said, how do you get to this point twice?
Right?
I was like, it was wild to me listening to it back, but it was also one of the most empowering
moments I've ever had.
And I've been guest on other podcasts where I talk about things and whatever.
But for me, it was one of the most empowering that I've ever been on because I felt able
to say to myself, again, you got to be comfortable with this because you wanted to put your story
out there because you know, for a fact, other people can relate.
Absolutely.
And there was specific people that I sent it to because they're going through currently
where you are.
So absolutely keep telling it.
That's again, you have to talk about it.
You have to be real about it.
Yeah.
You know, it may be things that you want to sleep under the cover.
No.
I would say if I wrote a book, I would say if I wrote a book, my exes would want to be
dead if I wrote that book because they would be dead.
It's not like people that know me don't know who they are.
Right.
They would be like, you know, my mother would want to be also.
She'd be like, I don't want to mess this up out there.
They know you're my child, you know.
So tell me also in that vein, what was for you, what is the most rewarding part of hosting
the Co-Dependent Me podcast?
I'm hosting phenomenal people.
I have met the most amazing people all over the world.
I mean, I reach out to this woman in Hong Kong.
I've got guys in Australia and Iceland and just people want to tell that it's just, I
love that.
I'm blessed.
I am so blessed.
It blesses my soul.
Every time I meet someone, I'm excited to get on the other side to see who's who else
is there because you never know what the connection will be.
Yeah.
One in the other day, she said, you didn't say a word and I fell in love with you.
That's exactly it.
I understand completely.
Yes.
You're like, what just happened?
I just bared my soul to a stranger and I just was the most comfortable ever bit of my
life.
It's so beautiful.
It's so, it's so beautiful.
And I don't, and I have to say that in itself is a gift from God because people have always
been that way with me.
My husband used to be upset.
We'd be in a line at Walgreens and the woman would turn around and like start telling me
about her day.
You go, what do you do to people?
I'm like, I don't know, but you know, it's okay.
Yeah.
And that's funny because I think that we have that in common when my dad would sit there
saying to me, you know what?
Cause people would just come to me all the time.
I'd just say, you should be a therapist.
A therapist.
I don't want it.
I'm not going to get into my own soul.
I was like, I can't take on the world stuff.
I was like, I need a different therapist for each day of the week if I was a therapist.
But it's true.
It's true.
Sometimes you just have a personality and I, and I definitely feel that with you, just
this personality that makes you want to be engaging.
That makes you, that makes you want to be your authentic self.
Right.
And you want to get some things off of your chest because most times I don't have to
say a word.
Yeah.
Well, and that's what's so beautiful about my coaching is I can guide people, but most
times at very first session, they feel free just because they're able to get things off
of their chest.
I could see that.
Cause I am nobody.
They can tell me whatever they want to.
And there is no judgment and they feel the love and then they can get to the next time
and then the next time.
And then we can come up with certain things that can build them up.
You know what I mean?
I just, I'm so grateful.
So grateful with the place that I am in my life right now.
That is truly, truly blessed me to be able to show my gifts and for people, it's so healing
for me.
Yes, it's cathartic.
Oh, yes.
It's so cathartic.
It really, really is.
Yes.
So tell me the audience who I'm sure is enraptured right now, realistically, but what's next for
you in the co-dependent me podcast and exciting projects or future goals, anything going on
that you want to let the audience know about?
I am working now on doing courses on codependency, just the whole course of this is where I am,
this is where I need to be.
I'm working on courses on boundaries where they can be, I do classes where it's live,
but I'm going to do some online courses.
Wow.
And, oh my goodness, the other thing that I'm so very proud of next week, I'm going to
Milwaukee, which is my hometown.
Oh.
I'm going to work with a group home on a podcast.
That's awesome.
Yes.
They, the beautiful young ladies and last year I went and built a studio for them.
And so we have to use work.
They come up with the subjects and they have this beautiful podcast and these babies, again,
they have been through, we talk about we has life.
They had, when we were talking about certain subjects, you know, human trafficking comes
up.
These kids are like 12, 13 things that I didn't know about until I was an adult, but this
is the life that they're living.
Oh my God.
So to sit back and know the children are in the spaces that they're in, it's so important
to get their story out.
And their podcast is called the Ketchit podcast.
Thank you.
I was going to say, please send me the info.
I want to hear it.
I want to post it.
Oh my goodness.
That's beautiful.
So it's, you know, and of course it's very raw.
Of course.
You know, they're not going to sit back and try to speak correctly and be all prim and
proper.
Now they're kids.
They're going to say exactly what they're thinking.
And they've done some shit.
You know, I think live some things.
So that's one of the biggest things that I'm so very proud of to do the work with them.
But as far as me, I am, I've got lots of programs for my coaching.
I love, I love doing the coaching.
I love it so much.
That's it.
That's it right now.
You know, other than, you know, I got the, of course we've got the nonprofit and you
know, this and that and all of that.
You are a busy lady.
I thought I was a busy lady.
You are a busy lady, but you put in that message out there and you are helping people
and that alone to use your talents for that is such a beautiful, beautiful blessing to
be able to do.
It is my honor to be able to be a servant for God's people.
Amen.
I wish you so much good in this life because it's, it's, there's too much bad.
We have to take it where we can get it and, and, and give it and put it out there.
You know what I mean?
So I have one last question for you.
If you could leave our listeners with one powerful message or nugget about healing and
growth, what would it be?
It would be know that you are worthy of love.
Know that you matter and your story matters.
That's it.
Gotta get there.
Gotta know.
Gotta know you have to know that you are worthy of love because you are in the biggest person
who needs to love you is you.
Is you.
Okay.
It starts with you.
Absolutely.
And it ends with you.
Yeah.
Okay.
It's your greatest love story.
Oh my gosh.
When I looked at myself and I said, I am so in love.
I want everyone to feel that.
I want everyone to feel that it is, it is beautiful.
It doesn't mean that I feel like I'm perfect.
Hell no.
It means that I love me unconditionally.
And you'll never forget who you are again.
No.
That's the important piece.
You know who you are, you can start to feel yourself slipping away when it happens and
you can say absolutely not and bring that back.
Bring it back.
Get it together.
Get it together, ma'am.
Tamela, what a conversation.
Your wisdom, your vulnerability and your passion for helping others heal is just so inspiring.
It really is.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
My love.
It is just a mirror because you do the same thing.
Thank you from your mouth to God's ears.
I'm trying and listening to you and feeling your openness.
Like I said, it made me like, oh my God.
I'm like, whoa.
I heard it back.
I was like, oh my God.
So it was, it's the energy.
It's your energy.
I work off of energy and you can feel it even through the screen.
So such a blessing.
And to our audience, if today's episode resonated with you, know that healing is possible.
It is within reach.
And no matter how far you've gone down a path of codependency, you are not stuck.
You are worthy of love, boundaries and a life that feels good to you.
Again, Tamela, thank you for sharing your journey and for reminding us all that recovery
is a daily commitment, but one that leads to freedom, joy and self love.
Thank you so much for having me on.
Thank you.
And so all of our Perseco Queens family listening, if you connected with this episode, be sure
to check out the codependent me podcast where Tamela dives even deeper into these life-changing
conversations.
I will have all of her information on the show notes about how you can reach her and
of course, check out her pods and all the other wonderful things that she's about and
doing.
DM me, share this episode.
And if you haven't already subscribed and leave a review, join me next week where we
have a special panel episode with three Queens, former guests to the show in different stages
of their journeys, where we will be discussing all things we consider attribute to the perfect
pressure as women and especially women of a certain age.
I want to hear from you.
I can be reached on all social media at Perseco Queens podcast.
I can be reached via email at Teresa.
Look, I'm giving the wrong one.
Perseco Queens podcast at gmail.com.
And you can also listen to these episodes on YouTube and subscribe at Perseco Queens
podcast.
So until next time, keep healing, keep growing and most importantly, keep pouring into yourself.
Peace out.