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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to rounding the earth.

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My name is Liam Sturgis and I am very excited today because we are introducing a new series,

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a new theme of discussion.

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We have a number of really interesting weekly shows here we do at rounding the earth.

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We have our weekly Tuesday roundtable discussions.

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We have our RTE discussions that Matthew Crawford does one on one with a variety of guests.

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We have our weekly local supporters exclusives and we have our Friday rounding the news shows.

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Now what's wound up happening is I've had a lot of very positive influences on me in

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the realm of research and in the realm of connecting the dots so to speak, but more

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than anything in the realm of learning and understanding the people, the organizations

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that make up our society essentially for better and for worse.

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And having been positively influenced, for example, by Mark Kulak, Huesutonic Live, by

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people like JJ Cooey and people like our guest today, I thought it would be really valuable

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to set up a specific space, to hold space for discussions a little more focused on the

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research side of things.

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And so that's what I've decided to do here is start a new series called the Campfire

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Sessions, which is in reference to our Campfire Wiki, which I'm going to pull up and show

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for those who have not yet had the opportunity to go and explore it.

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And as usual, I have so many tabs open, it's going to take me a long time to actually find

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it.

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And here it is.

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This is our Campfire Wiki.

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For those who are not familiar with it, you can go at any time, campfire.wiki.

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And it is a repository primarily for information, for research and resources related to the

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COVID-19 era, event, plandemonium, whatever you want to call it.

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But of course, as most people are starting to understand the people and organizations

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and movements and ideologies behind a lot of the COVID response have ties to a lot of other

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really interesting areas of life.

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And that leads us into, well, our topic of discussion for today.

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So what I'd like to do is introduce a guest who members of the Rounding the Earth community

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should now be rather familiar with and someone who has done a tremendous amount of research

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and good community development work into understanding how grassroots movements and earnest people

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with genuine causes can be perhaps manipulated, influenced or otherwise intercepted.

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So please allow me to introduce one of my favorite people in the world, Kristin Elizabeth.

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How are you, Kristin?

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It's hard not to be excellent after that nice introduction.

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Nice to see you, Liam.

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It's really nice to see you as well, Kristin.

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You have now become, you're rapidly becoming a repeat guest on the show and in a variety

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of different contexts.

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I want to just really quickly summarize what you've brought to us already.

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I'm going to share my screen again.

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And I want to also say this.

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I can be very, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this.

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And there can be scripts and there can be all this planning.

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And that's great.

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Part of me wants this show to be a little more relaxed.

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Is that something that you feel would be appropriate?

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Sure.

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That sounds great.

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Excellent.

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So with that said, if it takes me a minute to pull up my tabs, I hope everybody will

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forgive me.

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So let's do this.

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Share screen, upper tab.

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The Thymus Report.

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So first things first.

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This is what I'll put the most emphasis on because this is how you came to my attention

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first and then to the attention of the Rounding the Earth audience.

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You were the author of The Thymus Report, Anatomy of Infiltration in the Grassroots

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Health Freedom Movement.

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Now can you just give a very brief overview of what The Thymus Report was and how then

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it may relate to other areas than just specifically the Health Freedom Movement?

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Sure.

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So this was the first operation, I'll call it, that I discovered and then researched

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and documented and with some support from other people put this report together primarily

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as a tool for other activists and organizers to be able to identify certain tactics or

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patterns that were taking place in the organizing communities across the country at the time,

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just specifically worldwide demonstration and the anti-lockdown rallies and medical freedom

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rallies that were being organized.

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So that's what it is.

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It's a documentation of one operation that was used as an example to present to people

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like beware of these patterns.

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And I think that's the key part because there are specific individuals named in the report

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and that's good and that's fine.

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But what you just said, the pointing out of larger patterns of larger techniques which

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can maybe be identified in other movements or in the behavior of other individuals.

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So then to bring us up to speed, you then launched this fantastic sub stack beyond the

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maze where you have talked about, well, a bunch of really interesting things.

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There's our baleful Miss Benita who is mentioned in the FEMIS report and then also covering

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the US convoy movement, your wonderful interview with Brian Braze and I recommend people if

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you haven't listened to not just the summary or the highlight video, which itself is wonderful,

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but listen to the whole, I think, two hour podcast version and you'll get a lot of really

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human really interesting insight into what Brian went through and the larger situation

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there.

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So let's take the US convoy movement, put it up in the corner as well as yet another

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one of these events, movements, organizations, so on.

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You also covered the wonderful film.

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Well, not wonderful film.

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You wonderfully covered the tremendously interesting and concerning film, White Noise and its

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connection or apparent similarity to real life events in East Palestine.

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So I'm not sure if that would be something else to put on a shelf as another event type

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thing related to this, but at a minimum, it's tremendously interesting and demonstrative

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of your good work.

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Finally, you've done tremendous work on the America's Frontline Doctors situation and

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that is what you and Renette came on to discuss with Matthew just over a week ago now.

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So that's the summary.

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That's catching us up, putting some context into what we're going to talk about today,

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which is this tremendous article that you put out called Stoking White Nationalism.

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So Kristin, I'd love it if you introduced us to this article in whatever way you think

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is appropriate, the historical leading up to it or simply the premise of the article

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itself, whatever you think is best.

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What is this?

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Wow.

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Yeah, this is a doozy.

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Well I was introduced to the theme specifically because the town of Chatham, New York, which

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is where the article begins and ends, is in my county.

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And there were these bizarre things taking place around where I live that the media was

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picking up on and claiming represented an amplification of racist white supremacist

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groups in the area and specifically ones that by their name would cause a media frenzy like

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Patriot Front and not just stickers, but then there were actually a couple very bizarre

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little demonstrations or there was one demonstration and a couple banner drops, which I can go

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into more later, just the tactics of these groups.

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But so this event, the photo that you have up is from this in-person event that happened

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in the town of Chatham and it was very bizarre and very suspicious to me.

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I've lived in this county pretty much my entire life.

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I was born here and it felt totally out of place and it did to a lot of other locals.

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And the really interesting thing about it was the banner itself because you can see

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it says White Lives Matter, New York, and then almost in exactly the same size font

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below it is a link to a telegram channel and that's already suspicious because what they're

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doing is they're trying to get you into this telegram channel.

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There's no other reason and apparently I wasn't there, but apparently they kind of rolled

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up in a vehicle, barreled out of the vehicle.

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You can't really tell, but the one guy in the middle has got this like kind of classic

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skull mask.

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They're all, you know, they're, yeah, just wearing like almost militarized looking a

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little bit and they unfurl this banner and they stand there for just a couple minutes

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and documentation is taken.

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So it looks like it's staged for the purposes of creating media content, right?

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And then I went into the telegram channel and that's where this, to check it out, because

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I already was doing research primarily in telegram.

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So I was like, ah, this is a gold mine and went in there and that's what led me down

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this rabbit hole.

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So to be clear, it wasn't coming through the lens of exploring the issue around racial

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tensions in our country and the ways that those can be productive and unproductive

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to further, you know, the government's agenda.

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It was actually because I primarily do my research through the lens of propaganda on

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social media and I was able to explore what this group in particular was up to because

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those are the tools I already use.

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And you already use them because that's exactly what you were looking at for the FEMIS report

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and for other related investigations, it was the same kind of language and same kind of,

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almost as if it was the same, it could be the same people running this thing, cutting

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right to it, right?

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Yeah, it's, go ahead.

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Oh, there's a picture in particular I'm trying to find.

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Maybe I've already skipped past it on this article, but where it shows side by side,

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the taking or Operation Take Back America.

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It's further down.

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It's further down?

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So while I find it, could you elaborate on that, on how it's like the same thing you

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were already looking at and boom, here it is in another context?

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Sure.

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I mean, maybe I should write like FEMIS report 2.0 because there's some additional signs

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of a problem group that I've identified that could be articulated for people.

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One, and it's in this article, is the way that the group is structured.

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And whenever you see on Telegram a situation where a supposed movement has a national channel,

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a main national channel, and then a subgroup for every single state, every single state

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in the country, likely additionally groups for other countries, there's, I mean, I have

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yet to see that form and see any indication at all that it's actually organic.

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So if you go back to the beginning, which you can do on Telegram pretty easily, if you,

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I'll just quickly mention this for anyone who wants to learn this research trick, if

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you go to search on Telegram, it gives you the option to search people, a query, or a

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calendar.

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And if you click on the calendar, you can just literally flip back four years and it's

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going to automatically bring you to the date that that group was formed.

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And what you want to do is you want to go back to see when the group was formed and

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look at the first three or four posts in the group.

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Because in the case of White Lives Matter, when I did that, what I saw was that there

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was like a video all in a matter of a few days, there was a video of something, and

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then there was like an announcement from whomever created this group that they were looking

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for trustworthy admins for different states.

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And once they had them and had them vetted, they would open groups in other states.

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But then like two days later, boom, you just have this list of links.

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I think it's 45 altogether that was produced, one for every state in the nation, and then

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like a bunch, yeah, there it is, a bunch of countries around the world.

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So there's no way.

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There's just no logical way that this resulted from something organic when within a handful

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of days, they have a structure set up across the country and the world.

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It's not possible.

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Oh, sorry.

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Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

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I was just going to say this is classic.

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The fake worldwide demonstration group, Worldwide USA, had this form.

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Marilena Bonita's group, Operation Take Back America has this form.

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There's a number of other ones.

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And so the only way this could possibly result from something organic is over time.

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Yeah.

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Well, and so point of clarification, does the original worldwide demonstration group

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have this format?

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That's a good question.

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I don't think that they have a list of links that's packaged like this.

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I would have to like go back and verify that because a big part of what the original worldwide

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demonstration did was promote the various groups from around the world.

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But I can tell you from working on the national and international level with those people,

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the intensive amount of vetting that goes on and internal conversation and everything

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else, that's totally not present.

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Yeah.

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So it did grow over time.

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Countries were added and over time the list, if there even is a list, grew.

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Yeah.

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Because one might say, well, you look at this and, well, this is the intended result.

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If you have a movement of any kind, you want to be able to have, as you say, grassroots

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representation and local leaders.

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This is the kind of thing Matthew talks about, for example.

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Matthew Crawford, the decentralized movement of leaders within different regions.

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So it's not to say that the premise of having something like this would be an ideal way

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in theory of managing a large movement.

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However, it's impossible for this to have happened virtually overnight within the span

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of a couple of days.

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Is that what you're saying?

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It's simply not possible?

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Yes.

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That is what I'm saying.

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It is simply not possible to have absolutely every state.

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That's complete nonsense.

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How did they find an individual and vet them who wanted to admin a White Lives Matter group

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in absolutely every state across Alaska, Vermont, Hawaii?

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I mean, it's just utter nonsense within five days.

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And in Albania, Austria, Bosnia.

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I mean.

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So but then there's the thing of saying, well, so Kristin, you're saying there's not white

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supremacy groups in all these states in all these countries, or there's not perhaps a

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spectrum of racial, as you say, racial tension that could be useful or not for government

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actors.

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But what about the earnest race relations issues?

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Whether or not they evolve or elevate into nationalism or supremacy type movements.

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There are genuine issues of race in culture.

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And as you go place to place, they're slightly different.

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But surely they are there, yes?

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Well, I mean, I think that's probably a better question to kind of move toward at the end

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of this conversation, because I think it's important just to make the distinction between

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that important question.

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And the fact that what I'm trying to do in this article is point out that through the

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way these groups are structured and the propaganda, there's a question around their authenticity.

237
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And those are two separate questions, because then you have to also ask, like, well, what's

238
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:18,640
the agenda?

239
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:19,640
Right?

240
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,200
And that's related to the question that you're asking.

241
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:23,200
Fantastic.

242
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I love it.

243
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:25,560
Okay.

244
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:32,840
So, so to clarify, we've been talking about so far one specific apparent group, apparent

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00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,000
organization called White Lives Matter.

246
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,880
Now I just want to point of clarification again, before we kind of expand the scope

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a little bit, because I as I finished reading the article and was reviewing, I was going

248
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in to try to find further information on White Lives Matter.

249
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:57,320
And it looked to me as though there was no formal organization.

250
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,440
For example, Black Lives Matter is it's a slogan.

251
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:09,120
It's a broad movement, but it is also a 501 C whatever nonprofit that accepts funds and,

252
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:12,160
you know, apparently has done some questionable things with it.

253
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,440
But at least there is a legitimate organization at the center of it, or not legitimate.

254
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:17,440
That's not what I mean.

255
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,800
But a formal organization.

256
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:20,800
Am I right?

257
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:29,840
Or could you expand on if White Lives Matter is that or is this something even more fluid?

258
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:35,440
It's not robust, and it's not well organized, and it's not large.

259
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:40,100
And I know of no formal organization.

260
00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:51,600
It appears to be a very small handful of individuals in especially a handful of states across the

261
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:52,600
country.

262
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:59,980
So even though there's a White Lives Matter, Vermont, for example, I'm just going to assume,

263
00:21:59,980 --> 00:22:05,120
although I don't know that I've been in that specific group, that if you go there, what

264
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:12,080
you'll see in the feed is simply content that's been forwarded from the states that actually

265
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,400
do have activity.

266
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,120
And the majority of the states across the country, I don't think do.

267
00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:28,800
So the groups have been set up in the hopes that some activity will materialize.

268
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,320
And so there are certain states that have activity.

269
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:37,920
But even within those states, it's like a handful of people.

270
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:48,420
And it's the same content of like, it's a lot of really short video clips of just hands

271
00:22:48,420 --> 00:22:53,520
putting stickers on things, White Lives Matter stickers on things, and stuff like that.

272
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:59,360
These really short clips, posts with some pictures, different media content, but that's

273
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:02,000
repeatedly put into the feed.

274
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:10,480
So they just repurpose the same media to give the illusion, in my opinion, of a lot more

275
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,600
activity than there actually is.

276
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:21,400
So I don't think that it's catching on really very well at all, which is another pattern

277
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:27,120
with these operations is that they actually don't tend to do well.

278
00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:29,200
Which is probably a good sign.

279
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:30,420
It's probably a good sign.

280
00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:32,560
And I don't want to impose my opinions on anybody.

281
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:39,440
I would say to me, it's a good sign if pseudo-militaristic white nationalists or any kind of nationalist

282
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,240
organization is taken off.

283
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,280
Although even that statement is nuanced, right?

284
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:46,280
Yeah, absolutely.

285
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:47,280
Okay.

286
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:54,760
So I want to allow you to flow through this in the way that you think is most natural.

287
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,040
It seems to me it's worthwhile establishing.

288
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,080
We're talking about white lives matter.

289
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:09,360
But as we go through and as you start to look in, you start to see connections to other

290
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:16,440
organizations with similar stated intentions, but that aren't clearly related at first.

291
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:21,680
Is that the case or what's the most important thing to look at there as we expand the scope

292
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:22,680
out?

293
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:23,680
Sure.

294
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,000
I guess I would just like to mention a couple other notable elements of the white lives

295
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:35,080
matter network of telegram groups before moving on.

296
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:36,360
Because I think it's really important.

297
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:46,040
And one is I am of the very, very firm opinion that the main administrators of this network

298
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:53,040
of groups do not speak English as a primary language, which is also a pattern.

299
00:24:53,040 --> 00:25:00,080
I've talked about that in relationship to other things on this program already.

300
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,520
We saw that a lot with the convoy.

301
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:09,440
So you can get a sense for that with spam bots and bot accounts.

302
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:16,720
It's not that hard to familiarize yourself with someone who's using really busted English.

303
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:22,240
And it has improved over the year and a half or so.

304
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:31,440
I've been monitoring these groups, but that's just worth noting because there is also a

305
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:41,720
pattern of the tech side of an operation being run outside of the country, but involving

306
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,600
operatives within the country.

307
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,440
And that's important.

308
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:51,840
Do you know where is there a location that you can trace the cooperation to?

309
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:57,280
No, I have my various suspicions.

310
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:05,560
I mean, in the case of Carolina Bonita's takeover of McCullough's group, that led back to an

311
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,280
account in Ukrainian.

312
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,640
And I've seen that a few times.

313
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,680
I've seen Russia too.

314
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:20,080
And I had someone who's a language specialist tell me grammatically.

315
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:27,000
They thought in the case of the White Lives Matter admin, main admin, that it was German

316
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,480
because of the placement of the verbs and the nouns.

317
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,680
So I do not know.

318
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,640
But I do believe that they are not at home speaking English.

319
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,560
Which is ironic again.

320
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:42,560
It's tremendously ironic.

321
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:43,560
Right.

322
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:49,720
May I read for those listening, can I just read this paragraph at the top to maybe demonstrate

323
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,800
the proficiency in the English language?

324
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:52,800
Sure.

325
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,400
So this says, the greatest possession we have in this world is our people.

326
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:02,960
And for these people, for the sake of white people, we must struggle and we must fight.

327
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:08,220
We must never slacken, never tire, never lose courage and never lose faith.

328
00:27:08,220 --> 00:27:09,560
We are here to stay.

329
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:10,780
These are our homes.

330
00:27:10,780 --> 00:27:14,720
To get involved in organizing, contact at WLM contact bot.

331
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,480
You know, that one, there's one that's even more egregious, I found.

332
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,880
Can you elaborate on, they use the word our folk.

333
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:22,880
Folk.

334
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:23,880
Yeah.

335
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:24,880
White folk.

336
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:25,880
Yeah.

337
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:31,360
That was one of the things that actually tipped off some of the locals because there was this

338
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:38,000
action, if you want to call it that, where White Lives Matter activists, if you want

339
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:45,160
to call them that, drove through the town of Chatham in a vehicle throwing baggies,

340
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:52,240
Ziploc baggies with flyers, so with propaganda in them and with beans to weight them down.

341
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,680
And they just chucked them out the window on a drive by and they landed on people's

342
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:56,680
lawns.

343
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,060
And so of course it was in the news and blah, blah, blah.

344
00:28:00,060 --> 00:28:03,880
And they used the our folk term.

345
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:10,440
And that was actually specifically mentioned to me by locals as like so bizarre, it led

346
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,240
to suspicion.

347
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:20,320
Yeah, so the example of the word salad that's in the article is kind of a better example

348
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:26,640
of the very bizarre grammar sometimes that's in the language.

349
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:34,040
But you know, my greatest challenge in what I do is, or it's the most challenging thing

350
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:42,520
for me personally, is to translate the whole experience that I'll take in, in these channels

351
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:50,480
over time, into something that's comprehensible to people in the form of an article or a report.

352
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:57,560
So it's like I've seen so many examples of this bizarre language over time.

353
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:03,520
I kind of develop a sense for the character of the person.

354
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,440
But then I really can only extract one example.

355
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:12,960
And so yeah, that's important.

356
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:14,320
This one here.

357
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:15,320
Let's read this one.

358
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:16,320
Can I read this one?

359
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:17,320
I love this one.

360
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:18,800
This screenshot down here?

361
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:19,800
Yeah.

362
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:20,800
Yep.

363
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:21,800
Go for it.

364
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:29,680
It says, next, each and every one of you who reads this post on Telegram and beyond must

365
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:35,880
ask themselves, am I living my life according to what I think it is right?

366
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:43,120
Can I proudly say that I was able to break free from fear and slave morality and went

367
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,200
against the norm, against the system?

368
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,520
Who wanted me dead?

369
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,040
Am I making my ancestors proud?

370
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,580
Am I a coward or a hero?

371
00:29:53,580 --> 00:30:08,080
So there's just a number of shifting also subjects from me to you to them to our.

372
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,560
But that kind of leads into another important element, which is the, am I a coward or a

373
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:14,560
hero?

374
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:15,560
Yeah.

375
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:23,760
The theme of really baiting and shaming people is extremely intense in these groups.

376
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,720
I give a list of examples and that's amplified over time.

377
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:40,240
They're outrageous shaming of people trying to get them to go do something.

378
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,920
And it's not just that it might radicalize your mind.

379
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,480
It's just terribly fucking mean.

380
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,600
Like, are you a patriot?

381
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,720
Do you care about your people?

382
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,760
Your children are going to die.

383
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,960
There's a genocide taking place.

384
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:03,060
Get off the couch, stop being a keyboard warrior all the time.

385
00:31:03,060 --> 00:31:06,620
Every post basically has this.

386
00:31:06,620 --> 00:31:10,840
And then you have this inaction is racial treason.

387
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:17,600
You're treasonous if you don't go do something, you know, like by sitting there and simply

388
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,100
being in this group, you're against the good guys.

389
00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:28,320
You know, if you want to say it that way and you're, you're, you've now joined the bad

390
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:29,920
guys.

391
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:36,120
And you know what I'm not seeing here is a lot of nuanced explanation of what the issues

392
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:37,600
actually are.

393
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,680
What are they pushing back against?

394
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:44,200
You know, in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, well, maybe they have issues with with immigration

395
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,440
policy.

396
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:51,280
But you know, I hear people when they when they have issues with immigration policy,

397
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:52,280
they say that.

398
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,320
And it's not just, you know, anybody who's not white isn't welcome here.

399
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:03,080
I have I don't think I haven't really heard anybody articulate that particular stance.

400
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:09,580
But what it seems to be like the implication here, you know, the the white genocide or

401
00:32:09,580 --> 00:32:13,680
the white like the dilution of the white population.

402
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:19,120
Well, in fact, these are the I just brought these as a couple of books that I've purchased

403
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:24,760
and have been reading on the topic of, you know, the alt right and and white ethno state

404
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:25,760
type stuff.

405
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:34,000
And it's there are there are some actual identified positions that people have.

406
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:40,440
Some of them are better articulated than others, but none of them are necessarily white nationalist.

407
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:45,820
But the impression one gets from reading this is that it would be something like immigration

408
00:32:45,820 --> 00:32:47,740
policy that someone has an issue with.

409
00:32:47,740 --> 00:32:52,520
My point is, those are things that one could learn about, be educated about.

410
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:57,960
And if you're engaged in activism, you would think the first step would be to to genuinely

411
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,580
inform and educate people.

412
00:32:59,580 --> 00:33:02,280
And I feel like they say that's what they're doing in here.

413
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,800
But I've learned nothing about their policy positions.

414
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:10,440
I've learned nothing about, you know, what does it mean to take action like this is it's

415
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:16,000
it's we were in a different context talking about a way a person can talk where it sounds

416
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,580
like they're saying something and it sounds like there's something important or meaningful

417
00:33:19,580 --> 00:33:20,660
in there.

418
00:33:20,660 --> 00:33:23,480
And then you can't really identify what it is.

419
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,440
And it seems to me that in this case, the only thing that we're getting is do something

420
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:34,760
get agitated, but with no particular direction other than get agitated at someone with a

421
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,240
different skin color than you.

422
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:37,640
Am I reading this right?

423
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:44,560
Well, so there are two I'm going to just answer that one question with two answers.

424
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:51,520
So there's the question of what does the action look like that they're asking for?

425
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:56,840
And the other is what are they doing in the groups besides just trying to agitate people?

426
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:06,920
And so starting with the latter, it's the fact that I didn't include in my article anything

427
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,280
about the content that they buy.

428
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:10,980
I think I mentioned it.

429
00:34:10,980 --> 00:34:19,840
So they they will put, you know, statistics on race like black crime versus white crime.

430
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:31,920
They'll put occasionally an article or a media piece about a, you know, a white European

431
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:36,000
that was raped or murdered by an immigrant.

432
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:44,960
And then they will also link to articles that are really that are authentically disturbing,

433
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:53,600
for example, an opinion piece about how white people should stop having babies otherwise

434
00:34:53,600 --> 00:35:00,520
their white supremacists, this stuff that's so totally beyond the pale that makes the

435
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:07,840
case that there is an agenda going on, right, to genocide white people.

436
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:14,720
And but the point I think to make here that's really important is this is a curated space.

437
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:20,360
It's only telling you one side of the story.

438
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,200
And I think that that's by design.

439
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:30,080
And you have myriad curated spaces cultivating specific paradigms.

440
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:36,700
Whether or not there's an agenda to genocide white people, I can't say, right.

441
00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:42,760
But I can say that the way that the information is used in this space is manipulative.

442
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,340
That I can say.

443
00:35:44,340 --> 00:35:52,260
So there's like the truth and then there's the way in which it's being used.

444
00:35:52,260 --> 00:35:57,400
And so, yeah, but they do they do have at this point, they have like what they call

445
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,900
White Lives Matter watching and there's like a few documentaries and I've never watched

446
00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:02,900
any of them.

447
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:06,680
But I think that they like tell the truth about World War Two and stuff like that.

448
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,220
And then quote unquote.

449
00:36:08,220 --> 00:36:16,480
And then they have White Lives Matter reading, which involves like different articles and

450
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,400
different manuals that interestingly also come out of Eastern Europe.

451
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:28,240
So they're they're basically they're called Legionnaire manuals.

452
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:42,600
And it's the one that I linked to in my articles from Romania, and it's basically a map for

453
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:49,560
training a entire society from the ground up in every possible way.

454
00:36:49,560 --> 00:37:09,520
So outside the main

455
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:17,760
as well. And then the action that they want to get you to engage in. And also just as

456
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:25,620
a side note, every single post in these groups also includes a push to reach out to this

457
00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:32,080
Why Lives Matter bot to get vetted. So that is the ultimate goal is to get you into these

458
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:37,800
groups because you encounter the link like on the banner. And then once you're in the

459
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:43,760
group, you're like, Yeah, this is rad. I want to join what these people are doing and start

460
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:50,960
stickering my neighborhood. And so you then like would contact the the bot and go through

461
00:37:50,960 --> 00:38:01,160
a process of getting vetted, apparently. Now, the activity that they call activism in this

462
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:06,600
group, and then this can also move us into the other groups that are associated with

463
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:18,000
White Lives Matter is really specific. And it's stickering. It's banner drops. It's

464
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:25,280
rallies. And in the case of the different groups, they look a little bit differently.

465
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:31,780
But the stickers, the banner drops, and then also graffiti, which is interesting, I actually

466
00:38:31,780 --> 00:38:38,920
used to be a graffiti artist. And so I can, I can kind of analyze their graffiti a little

467
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:46,400
bit too. And that's just odd to me. So there's White Lives Matter. And then there's crossover

468
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:52,680
between White Lives Matter and Patriot Front, which most people at this point know about

469
00:38:52,680 --> 00:39:02,880
because the media just absolutely loves Patriot Front. And, and then there's Robert Paul Rundos

470
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:16,280
group, Rise Above Movement, and go into but those three groups have online a ton of coordinated

471
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:27,560
collaboration in terms of the media. In fact, it's, it's public information that media teams

472
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:34,120
were shared between Patriot Front and Rise Above Movement. And if you go into their various

473
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:42,340
social media, you see cross promotion all the time. In fact, you even see content from

474
00:39:42,340 --> 00:39:50,400
one group repurposed and put into a different group sometimes. So there's co management

475
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:57,000
taking place. There's really just no other explanation for that. And they openly collaborate.

476
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:07,040
So in my article, I have photographs of White Lives Matter and Rise Above Movement members

477
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:15,360
taking collaboratively in rallies, or they all three groups put together this big white

478
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:22,360
nationalist boxing tournament called Birth of a New Frontier, which is really fascinating.

479
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:27,000
And it was a coming together of like all all these different kinds of nationalist groups,

480
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,800
including some which may be legitimate. I don't really know.

481
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:39,520
Okay, so then just just within I was looking at this for clarification a bit earlier, you've

482
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:47,920
got subgroups within so you've got will to rise and then another one. And they if I'm

483
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:53,640
not mistaken, these are like a record label and a merch store or a clothing line under

484
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,960
the Rise Above Movement. It just to clarify that is that right?

485
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:07,880
Yeah, basically, the Rise Above Movement has kind of been rebranded at least in name as

486
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:17,560
will to rise. And then there's a media branch called media to rise. I get it. Okay, still,

487
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:25,160
they still call it the Rise Above Movement sometimes. But a lot of the propaganda has

488
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:30,880
will to rise in it now. Okay, I just want to read a couple points

489
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:38,680
that are from our prior points here. On locals, we've got some excellent discussion going

490
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:43,780
on Vilma says I'm a refugee, and I have a problem with open borders. Most immigrants

491
00:41:43,780 --> 00:41:48,680
are against illegal aliens coming into the US. They overwhelmingly hurt us blacks and

492
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:54,760
lower income whites. Rebecca says White Lives Matter is classic shit stirring to get some

493
00:41:54,760 --> 00:42:00,880
poor fool to do a physically harmful act against others in quotes. I've seen it over and over

494
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,920
again in the motorcycle world. I'm curious, do you know anything about the motorcycle

495
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:11,160
world? No, but that might be my next project. Yeah, we'll have to talk with Rebecca about

496
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:16,920
that. That's very interesting. And then I think this this Yeah, and then Vilma follows

497
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:23,720
up on the opposite and we have Robert Pape, Robert Pape Pape slash CP OST ADL Ruth Ben

498
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:28,480
Geyatt and others who still hate against white Christian men. White Christian nationalism

499
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,560
is another BS hate movement being pushed by white elitists. I have a database on these

500
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,400
topics follow the money who's dividing us and why. And yeah, that latter bit basically

501
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:43,600
is is what I've come to as well. But what you get to is there is a unifying thing. Perhaps

502
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:49,560
we've even identified perhaps you have shown a particular leader that unifies all these

503
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:57,380
groups. And was that one Robert Rondo? Yeah, so Robert Rondo, I don't know if I would say

504
00:42:57,380 --> 00:43:07,520
he unifies these groups, because Patriot Front has their own leader. And it's like its own

505
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:14,680
whole culture. And the White Lives Matter people are anonymous, just to be clear. Yeah.

506
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:23,720
So but, but Paul Rondo, I mean, Robert Rob Rondo, Robert Paul Rondo, he so he started

507
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:33,480
Patriot Front, I mean, Ram, it was initially called the DIY movement. And this is in California.

508
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:44,600
Over the course of 2016 2017, they cultivate the culture of their group. I don't know.

509
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:53,320
I don't have an assessment on how authentic this group was at the time. And can give some

510
00:43:53,320 --> 00:44:00,880
examples of the stuff that they got into during that time. But just to give a brief overview.

511
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:13,360
This led to the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville in 2018. That involved a couple Ram members.

512
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:20,520
And Patriot Front was born following right on the heels of Unite the Right. So there's

513
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:27,080
just a bit of a timeline there. So Rise Above Movement exists already. Patriot Front comes

514
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:35,600
into the picture. White Lives Matters launched like a year and a half ago, basically. And

515
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:42,120
so they do have some separateness, but then they clearly have some elements that are interconnected

516
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:55,000
and collaborative. And in assessing, in particular, the media, the social media, the propaganda,

517
00:44:55,000 --> 00:45:02,800
this is really what I tried to point out in my article, is that though they all have all

518
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:12,280
three of these groups have a different aesthetic that they're utilizing. They use exactly the

519
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:20,680
same tactics, exactly the same phraseology. They're collaboratively managed, and they

520
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:31,880
have the same goal in mind, which is to recruit members, cultivate this activity. And yeah,

521
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:39,760
like the one person said in the comment, probably entrap the disillusioned, listless, young

522
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:47,000
white male who doesn't have community and set him up to do something that furthers the

523
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:52,120
domestic terrorist agenda. And that's the whole point, in my opinion. That's the point

524
00:45:52,120 --> 00:46:01,160
of the entire article, is setting this all up because it's a goldmine in the sense of

525
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:08,600
the bigger agenda when you look at it in context with everything else. So then the piece goes

526
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:17,840
into the particular aesthetic of Patriot Front, a little bit about how they sticker, they

527
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:26,100
do banner drops, and all of that. They also, these groups are into training and physique

528
00:46:26,100 --> 00:46:36,200
and boxing and MMA, mixed martial arts. And so a lot of Patriot Front propaganda is them

529
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:45,760
like, sparring out in the wilds. And then they do this like, particularly staged theatrical

530
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:55,320
rally thing that just like the internet like breaks every time this happens. People, the

531
00:46:55,320 --> 00:47:06,240
media loves it. And Rob Rondo's group is a little bit more like, not so much the mature,

532
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:11,160
disciplined, white nationalist vibe that you get from Patriot Front, but a little bit more

533
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:20,840
of the like young street thuggy, white nationalist culture. They're one of their favorite slogans

534
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:31,920
is cultured thug, right? And so this picture of like the sun and rad, black sun tattooed

535
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:41,200
guy with a skull mask, but reading like German enlightenment thinkers or whatever. It's this

536
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:50,440
marriage of, another slogan that they like is bad boys, good habits, I think, something

537
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,320
like that.

538
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:58,600
Hmm. Yeah, this is a little uncomfortable because within there are a number of things

539
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:06,240
that you would describe as healthy or not bad, like being, you know, a young man developing

540
00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:13,800
good habits, you know, in a family context or in a physical well-being context. It almost

541
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,040
like I'm not, I don't want to come across the wrong way, but that last sentence made

542
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:23,000
me think of the kind of stuff Jordan Peterson advocates, like the setting of good habits,

543
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:27,880
making your bed in the morning. And it seems dumb that these things would then be, it seems

544
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:32,440
weird. I'm not saying Jordan Peterson is advocating white supremacist stuff. I'm saying it's odd

545
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:39,480
the choice to associate. I don't know. I guess it depends on if one believes this is, you

546
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:46,200
know, manufactured choices for a strategy or if it is, you know, simply just the fact

547
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:50,860
that you have mutual interests among groups of all kinds, you know, bodybuilders aren't

548
00:48:50,860 --> 00:48:55,080
all white supremacists, but white supremacists can be avid bodybuilders. Do you know what

549
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:56,080
I mean?

550
00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:04,680
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because it points out very clearly what is lacking, right?

551
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:14,840
So when within our not very healthy society at all, we don't promote good hygiene values,

552
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:22,120
meaningful culture. I mean, there is obviously an intense crisis of identity taking place.

553
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:31,200
How much of that is due to what is the more complex question to ask. But it only makes

554
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:42,480
sense that with like a complete deterioration as a nation of a sense of self identity as

555
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:50,360
a nation, you will see symptoms like what we're seeing. We don't have the capacity

556
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:58,600
to approach the difficult questions within this theme, in my opinion, whatsoever in a

557
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:05,400
productive way. We don't know how to ask the meaningful questions about empowerment, about

558
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:15,040
power, about identity, about how to support or heal or what's moral, how to cultivate

559
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:21,760
meaningful culture and not alienate people and not use race to further an agenda that

560
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:29,080
doesn't care what color, what person is within the dynamic. They're just going to extract

561
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:34,880
the part of it that they can use to further the agenda, which involves less freedom for

562
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:43,680
everybody. But I think in this particular case, the part worth pointing out is the thug,

563
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:49,640
because these guys would train and maybe they're actually reading German enlightenment. I don't

564
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:54,680
know, but they certainly want you to think that they are. But they would train and then

565
00:50:54,680 --> 00:51:06,280
they would go to pro-Trump rallies for the purposes of fighting with counter protesters.

566
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:12,440
And so there were like a number of instances of really intense, pretty intense violent

567
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:20,600
clashes between one side or the other. And I'm sure that the other side was equally violent.

568
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:27,400
And I'm not saying one's better than the other. But the point is, if so, Rob Rundow and his

569
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:35,800
colleagues went on to get indicted and in some cases charged, and I can be a little

570
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:41,800
more specific about that in a moment, for conspiracy to riot, because they weren't

571
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:49,640
just at these events and something broke out and there was a melee and they got involved.

572
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:58,120
They were, the case was made by the FBI that they were premeditatively training to go to

573
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:07,920
events to be violent. So I think that's the marriage of the lack of culture in our society,

574
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:16,320
especially for certain demographics, the pressure from certain places that's really intense

575
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:28,440
on the patriot, the young white Christian male, that that, that what's lacking there

576
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:37,360
is being married together with violence. And that's the thing that matters to, to pay attention

577
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:44,720
to because we don't need to, we don't need to allow ourselves to get radicalized in order

578
00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:51,240
to do something about it. But the lack of knowing how to do something about it is the

579
00:52:51,240 --> 00:52:53,240
thing we need to focus on more.

580
00:52:53,240 --> 00:52:59,120
Yeah, I completely agree. And just, just to relate that you have in Canada and I think

581
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:07,280
in the States as well, the word freedom is being described in, in propagandistic pieces

582
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:11,760
for the last like two and a half years, really ever, ever basically starting probably in

583
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:17,440
around 2021 at the beginning of that year, the word freedom is now openly being described

584
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,120
as a extremist dog whistle.

585
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,840
This is terrible. This is crazy.

586
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:28,640
And it is, it is crazy. And it's, it's on its, and by the way, like the, the, you don't

587
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:36,840
have to go very far to, to see that as itself sort of a racist, it's so stupid. It doesn't

588
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:43,960
even, it doesn't even deserve too much attention other than to say what's the result. You have

589
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:48,720
the freedom convoy in Canada where there's this narrative painted about them that it's

590
00:53:48,720 --> 00:53:53,720
going to be the next January 6th and it's good. It's mostly white supremacists, racist,

591
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:59,440
misogynistic. And of course, none of that was true. It was never true. There was zero,

592
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:08,960
zero such, such attitudes. I think, I think it's zero to be clear the incidents that occurred

593
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:17,920
during that particular protest where there was a Nazi flag or a Confederate flag were,

594
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:23,760
I think pretty quickly found to be artificial and not actually from the group. The point

595
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:31,680
is now you have a story and combine that with the result of the, the commissioner's report

596
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,080
where he found that the emergencies act was just about whatever the nuances of what he

597
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:42,680
found was the, the story is now that the freedom convoy and that anybody therefore associated

598
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:50,520
with being anti the things they were anti is now potentially a domestic terrorist. And

599
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:55,280
so you have people who do have some of the values you're describing, you know, the people

600
00:54:55,280 --> 00:55:01,440
who are focused on hygiene and staying physically healthy and maybe are Christian, maybe happen

601
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:06,400
to be white, but in a large, a large proportion of the time aren't necessarily even white

602
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:13,040
or male. But now they're all associated, as you say, lumped together in the group with

603
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:20,000
violent potentially extremists. And I can see really clearly how that would be an intentional

604
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:26,960
move because that has happened throughout history. That was the co Intel pro operation

605
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:33,800
or program within the FBI in which if I'm not mistaken, and I'm not terribly well read

606
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:39,440
on this, but movements like the black Panthers, like civil rights movements in the way we

607
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:46,800
think of civil rights movements from the sixties infiltrated had members actually murdered

608
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:51,920
and described and looked back on in history as being extremist movements when I'm not

609
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:56,720
sure they actually were. I'd have to read more and maybe you have perspective on that.

610
00:55:56,720 --> 00:56:04,240
The point is there is a legacy of this kind of thing happening where for some reason authorities

611
00:56:04,240 --> 00:56:11,280
will infiltrate genuine movements or create from whole cloth movements that don't actually

612
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:17,920
have much of a base at all for the purpose of either quashing dissent or maneuvering

613
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:22,800
them into something worse. What's your, what's your, your perspective on that? Yeah, it's

614
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:34,220
a good question. I mean, so there's also, there's also accelerating and amplifying certain

615
00:56:34,220 --> 00:56:47,480
beliefs in the hopes of cultivating a movement or taking like a budding movement and accelerating

616
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:54,560
it or amplifying it. So I'll give you an example because I do try to apply the same questions

617
00:56:54,560 --> 00:57:03,200
and explorations across the board of these divisive issues. Good, good. And really try

618
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:13,480
to stay objective and look at both sides. And the Antifa movement, as it's often referred

619
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:23,320
to, I use the term right watch to the right watch movement to umbrella that whole culture

620
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:32,160
within which you have the anti-fascist movement as it's thought of most often expressed in

621
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:38,560
the streets and stuff like that. So back in like the nineties and early two thousands,

622
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:48,040
you had from the left, you had an anti-globalist movement. Actually, they were the anti-globalists

623
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:55,920
back then. And there were these massive anti-war anti-globalists. There are these massive,

624
00:57:55,920 --> 00:58:06,200
massive protests against the WTO, for example, the World Trade Organization and the globalizing

625
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:14,760
of the economy and what that was going to mean for certain, for everyone, really. You

626
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:20,200
had people come up from South and Central America, indigenous communities to attend

627
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:30,480
these like massive, massive rallies. And the anti-war movement during the Iraq and Middle

628
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:38,520
East wars was also primarily led by the left. At these events, you had this tiny, tiny fraction

629
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:46,480
of people who self-identified as black bloc anarchists that were like punkers and they'd

630
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:54,040
show up and they'd try to wreck stuff or they would wreck stuff. And usually it was buildings

631
00:58:54,040 --> 00:59:02,800
because they were like anti-corporate global takeover of the world and the government and

632
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:08,360
the militarizing, to be specific at the time, the militarizing of the police. Which if you're

633
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:13,960
in the streets and this is part of what you do is like, oh, protest all the time. That's

634
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:20,000
a real experience. I mean, you guys experienced it hardcore in Canada, right? So that's a

635
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:26,480
part of the Black Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter conversation that's now totally left

636
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:37,480
out. And I can just tell you for certain that this tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the

637
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:45,480
movement at the time did not organically become Antifa as it is known today. And there is,

638
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:53,520
and I specifically follow and research, I do a lot of January 6th related research.

639
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:59,400
And so I follow the Sedition Hunter movement. And if people don't know what that is, right

640
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:06,140
on the heels of January 6th, the FBI put out a call to the American people to help the

641
01:00:06,140 --> 01:00:13,960
agency identify people who were at January 6th, which I felt like I got punched in the

642
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:20,280
stomach when I read that. That was a really, really intense moment for me. And so what

643
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:27,680
happened was a movement sprung up, which has led to the largest manhunt in the history

644
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:36,440
of this country. On average, basically one person a day is still arrested, where all

645
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:43,400
these people, they call themselves the Sedition Hunters, sift through thousands of hours of

646
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:51,640
footage and photographs and work collaboratively to ID anyone that they can. And they know

647
01:00:51,640 --> 01:01:01,360
an immense amount about the timeline. They're the ones who created the hashtag names for

648
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:09,320
the individuals if they don't have them ID'd. And they tag the FBI in their posts. They're

649
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:16,120
openly helping the FBI. Now, some of these people, it's been made clear from documentation

650
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:25,440
from some of the trials are in fact intelligence agents. Now, some of these people I believe

651
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:32,840
are people who believe that they're doing good work and they're rooting out racist white

652
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:41,600
supremacists who deserve to be rooted out. But the reality is that the black bloc anarchists

653
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:50,160
of yore would never ever do anything that involved collaboration with the FBI. So you

654
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:58,720
have an anti-government movement that's been turned into the movement that's policing part

655
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:06,240
of the population for the government. And it's the same thing as the mask Nazis pushing

656
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:15,920
them asking. So somehow this part of the political spectrum transformed over time into the one

657
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:24,160
that's protecting and actually enforcing these policies on the public for the government.

658
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:30,660
Anyways, I'm running away a little bit with that. But I just think within the question

659
01:02:30,660 --> 01:02:37,920
of infiltrating a movement and taking it somewhere, there's this much bigger, if you step back

660
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:47,800
and you look at these things over time, because again, with the extreme left I'll call it,

661
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:55,400
they just slapped domestic terrorist charges on a number of people related to the cop city

662
01:02:55,400 --> 01:03:04,760
situation that's happening in South Atlanta, where there's a proposed 350 acre cop training

663
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:11,400
center that is going to be built, the city taxpayer funded money, like bad corporate

664
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:20,520
interests are in there. And they're like building a town, you know, like a town to train within.

665
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:26,960
And I don't know that much about this situation. But I think anything like this is interesting.

666
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:31,760
So I followed it a little bit. And you have kind of a classic direct action situation

667
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:36,960
happening where you have environmental groups also involved because they want to protect

668
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:46,180
this forest that is the proposed site. And locals, a lot of the locals in these lower

669
01:03:46,180 --> 01:03:53,720
income neighborhoods that are near this location also don't want this thing to be built there.

670
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:59,520
And I can tell you that there's a really good chance that this is like next level fusion

671
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:05,200
center activity between the police department, Department of Homeland Security training and

672
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:10,160
intelligence agencies. And so you have all these people that have all this information

673
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:16,160
about this proposed thing, you have some folks that are like pretty radical, and do this

674
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:22,920
direct action stuff. So they go and they tree sit. And I don't know that much about this

675
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:30,560
story. There were like vehicles burned and things set on fire and Molotov cocktails,

676
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:36,280
probably at one point, like the kind of classic tactics of the extreme left, which involve

677
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:41,620
violence. And there was an altercation with the police, one activist was actually shot

678
01:04:41,620 --> 01:04:48,720
and killed. And in there's been a number of sweeps, because people have like gone and

679
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:55,940
re inhabited the forest a number of times. And in the first one, six people were detained.

680
01:04:55,940 --> 01:05:01,140
And all six are facing domestic terrorism charges. And they're all between the ages

681
01:05:01,140 --> 01:05:14,340
of 20 and 22. So the the the powers behind the agenda to bring about the immense amount

682
01:05:14,340 --> 01:05:22,620
of control that seems to be wanted with regards to the domestic terrorist agenda, do not care.

683
01:05:22,620 --> 01:05:28,180
If you're part of the side that is helping the FBI right now, your colleagues are over

684
01:05:28,180 --> 01:05:34,580
here tagging the fascists, supposed that fascists from January six, or not, they're just going

685
01:05:34,580 --> 01:05:40,580
to leverage whatever opportunity is presented to them in order to further the agenda. And

686
01:05:40,580 --> 01:05:50,500
so I saw that cop city situation curated for the two separate demographics basically that

687
01:05:50,500 --> 01:05:58,380
exist in this country into extremely different ways. And when I went into the, you know,

688
01:05:58,380 --> 01:06:04,540
like the Twitter accounts for there's one called like defend Atlanta forest, for example.

689
01:06:04,540 --> 01:06:12,260
And if you go in there and you kind of follow, you see pictures of like community members,

690
01:06:12,260 --> 01:06:17,900
like old people kind of people look like hippies and like a lot of normal looking people all

691
01:06:17,900 --> 01:06:22,260
come together for this like festival to save the forest and they have this little march

692
01:06:22,260 --> 01:06:30,580
and whatever. Definitely a lot of like hardcore black advocacy organizations involved in that.

693
01:06:30,580 --> 01:06:34,020
And you know, and then the cops come in and like arrest a ton of people and a ton of those

694
01:06:34,020 --> 01:06:41,420
people are facing domestic terrorist charges. But over in the right wing media spaces, the

695
01:06:41,420 --> 01:06:51,060
cop city is called a public service center. And this image was like an aerial shot. But

696
01:06:51,060 --> 01:06:58,900
they they did like a night vision filter of this march of people going towards the forest

697
01:06:58,900 --> 01:07:05,820
was circulated in all these right wing spaces with the comment like army of Antifa, you

698
01:07:05,820 --> 01:07:10,860
know, descending on the data. So like, that's the thing that matters. Because if we keep

699
01:07:10,860 --> 01:07:18,660
fighting with each other like this and allowing the curated information to further convince

700
01:07:18,660 --> 01:07:25,140
us that our enemy is our neighbor, then the domestic terrorist agenda, which is the real

701
01:07:25,140 --> 01:07:30,180
problem here is going to plow its way through.

702
01:07:30,180 --> 01:07:42,740
Well, you know, this is very interesting. I've so I grew up liberal. I live in Vancouver.

703
01:07:42,740 --> 01:07:50,180
It's like it's like LA. It's genuinely multicultural. I have never grown up thinking any particular

704
01:07:50,180 --> 01:07:58,420
like I've never understood racism as a premise. I look white. I don't identify as well. I

705
01:07:58,420 --> 01:08:06,620
think the entire premise is stupid. And I now understand that it is now my theory that

706
01:08:06,620 --> 01:08:12,500
this notion that there is a left and a right and sure there's some intermingling between

707
01:08:12,500 --> 01:08:19,100
but those are the weirdos that there's a you're either on this side or that side. And, and

708
01:08:19,100 --> 01:08:24,180
you have issues. So you have environmental issues, you have economic issues, you know,

709
01:08:24,180 --> 01:08:35,140
welfare type issues. And you get if you're on this side, you then by default, increasingly

710
01:08:35,140 --> 01:08:39,300
have only one stance on each of these things. So you get put into a box or either in this

711
01:08:39,300 --> 01:08:45,340
box or that box. And so it's been interesting because I went from coming into this COVID

712
01:08:45,340 --> 01:08:52,500
era. I came in thinking that Donald Trump was evil. I came in thinking that everybody

713
01:08:52,500 --> 01:08:59,580
more importantly, everybody who voted for him was either dumb as heck, racist, or probably

714
01:08:59,580 --> 01:09:07,740
just naive, how condescending of them or themselves bad people. Then the COVID era has allowed

715
01:09:07,740 --> 01:09:13,420
me to actually engage with people who have who who at the time had different views than

716
01:09:13,420 --> 01:09:20,380
I might have had. And I realized how fooled I was. Not that everybody is someone I agree

717
01:09:20,380 --> 01:09:24,580
with, or that we're always going to have common ground on every single issue. And in fact,

718
01:09:24,580 --> 01:09:31,780
that's the point. But I started to notice that, yes, indeed, there does seem to be this

719
01:09:31,780 --> 01:09:36,940
artificial thing. And then you start to think about issues like climate change. And you

720
01:09:36,940 --> 01:09:43,500
realize, well, hold on a second. How can such a complex issue as that, whatever it is that

721
01:09:43,500 --> 01:09:48,420
that phrase means, but everyone agrees, whatever it is supposed to be talking about is so complex,

722
01:09:48,420 --> 01:09:55,620
how could it be dumbed down to climate change exists, climate change doesn't exist? Okay,

723
01:09:55,620 --> 01:10:01,460
point being everyone agrees, you shouldn't litter basically, like, let's start with the

724
01:10:01,460 --> 01:10:06,500
common ground there. Yet, it's not described that way. You're either this or that you're

725
01:10:06,500 --> 01:10:15,860
either pro science or anti science, you're either pro pro diversity, or anti diversity.

726
01:10:15,860 --> 01:10:20,820
These are made up concepts. I don't I don't think pro diversity or anti diversity or even

727
01:10:20,820 --> 01:10:26,380
I don't think those are a thing. I think these are entirely manufactured in the way that

728
01:10:26,380 --> 01:10:31,260
they're presented now, or at least, if you don't want to say manufactured, we've at least

729
01:10:31,260 --> 01:10:37,940
fallen into this system. But my point is, what I'm getting to, I found myself more so

730
01:10:37,940 --> 01:10:44,340
agreeing with people who tended to be on the Republican side Trump side, it just it just

731
01:10:44,340 --> 01:10:49,340
happened to work out that way for a little bit. And you start to also find I found myself

732
01:10:49,340 --> 01:10:57,140
in spaces like bit shoot, or rumble Odyssey, these alternative platforms, which turns out

733
01:10:57,140 --> 01:11:00,300
had a lot of people who happen to be Trump supporters in large part because they had

734
01:11:00,300 --> 01:11:07,780
been kicked off places like Twitter and Facebook. So you start to to hear other perspectives.

735
01:11:07,780 --> 01:11:12,340
And it seems clear there's a dominant liberal force right now on all these issues. So then

736
01:11:12,340 --> 01:11:17,500
it becomes combating that even if you don't necessarily agree with the notion that it's

737
01:11:17,500 --> 01:11:21,820
a liberal force, but you have power structures that identify as liberal. For example, you

738
01:11:21,820 --> 01:11:27,660
have a Democratic President of the United States, we have a tremendously so called liberal

739
01:11:27,660 --> 01:11:34,060
Prime Minister up here and a very liberal coalition government with the NDP. So you

740
01:11:34,060 --> 01:11:39,060
then get into what we have to do, we have to, ideally in the political context, have

741
01:11:39,060 --> 01:11:43,420
someone elected that will defeat them. So now you have a movement of people over to

742
01:11:43,420 --> 01:11:49,380
Pierre poliev here in Canada, and the Conservative Party of Canada. But then you also have this

743
01:11:49,380 --> 01:11:53,420
movement of cultural ideas. And now we're flipping back around where now we're having

744
01:11:53,420 --> 01:12:00,100
people who were very pro, you know, medical freedom, or self determination, religious

745
01:12:00,100 --> 01:12:05,180
freedom, even if it's the freedom to have no religion, all these things, who are now

746
01:12:05,180 --> 01:12:10,100
responding to like this example you just gave is a fantastic one, where you have people

747
01:12:10,100 --> 01:12:14,860
who are now turning this January six wasn't an insurrection thing around and saying, but

748
01:12:14,860 --> 01:12:20,220
this was or this is something where there are, you know, people who are just going there,

749
01:12:20,220 --> 01:12:25,480
like the only story I heard from this was Antifa coming to burn it down. I knew I knew

750
01:12:25,480 --> 01:12:30,420
nothing more about this. And I still need to learn more. But you have two other situations

751
01:12:30,420 --> 01:12:36,820
recently, very related, I believe it was in Tennessee, there was a some kind of protest

752
01:12:36,820 --> 01:12:45,260
event, which was also described as an insurrection, Allah January six, when in reality, I don't

753
01:12:45,260 --> 01:12:49,420
know all the details, but it most certainly was not the same thing. And neither one of

754
01:12:49,420 --> 01:12:57,740
them were insurrections. And it was in response to a tremendously unfortunate and very bad

755
01:12:57,740 --> 01:13:05,940
situation of a school shooting. And the as far as I understand, the person is transgender,

756
01:13:05,940 --> 01:13:12,140
which to me is irrelevant. But the result is you now have whether they're real people

757
01:13:12,140 --> 01:13:19,500
or not, you have commentators on the right, arguing against the Second Amendment in this

758
01:13:19,500 --> 01:13:25,220
situation. So you see a flip flopping and you see almost like the the taking of people

759
01:13:25,220 --> 01:13:31,640
and there's a much longer, more nuanced discussion to be had on the the trans culture issues

760
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:37,380
and as they affect children, I get it, that's for another day. But I just see this continuum

761
01:13:37,380 --> 01:13:43,340
that swings back and forth. And it's sort of it's not it's sort of warping into like

762
01:13:43,340 --> 01:13:50,060
taking people perhaps like, like me, not me, but people like me who are engaged now, maybe

763
01:13:50,060 --> 01:13:55,180
who weren't before and are trying to do something, you know, and aiming them like taking them

764
01:13:55,180 --> 01:14:01,900
off target almost. I don't know, that was a bit of a I just wanted to relate a little

765
01:14:01,900 --> 01:14:06,980
bit to what I think you just articulated with this whole situation here with Cop City. It

766
01:14:06,980 --> 01:14:13,260
feels like you're right. It feels like there's this bigger progression of of radicalizing

767
01:14:13,260 --> 01:14:20,660
people always against each other in the end. Yeah. And yeah, exactly. Radicalizing people

768
01:14:20,660 --> 01:14:30,220
against each other. The theme of actually using the word neighbor is kind of interesting,

769
01:14:30,220 --> 01:14:36,700
you know, convincing people that like within their own town could be the person who lives

770
01:14:36,700 --> 01:14:46,180
next door, could be a family member, you know, like this, the the terrorist that lived outside

771
01:14:46,180 --> 01:14:52,420
of the country of the past now could be your sibling, right that that like bringing it

772
01:14:52,420 --> 01:15:06,480
home that far to put everyone on edge and coupled with the inability to actually extract

773
01:15:06,480 --> 01:15:15,980
out of any of the politically divisive hot button issues, the deeper moral question that

774
01:15:15,980 --> 01:15:23,500
the disagreement is, is raising actually. So like with environmentalism, I would say

775
01:15:23,500 --> 01:15:30,320
the question the question that we could ask is, do we need to somehow fix or adjust or

776
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:39,020
cultivate a different relationship to nature? Period. And like just kind of start there.

777
01:15:39,020 --> 01:15:45,420
You know, like, how are we treating each other or mistreating each other? How are we judging

778
01:15:45,420 --> 01:15:52,220
each other? How are we acting upon or not upon those judgments? How much does the does

779
01:15:52,220 --> 01:15:58,980
the past matter? You know, but the quality of the values because what's happening, I

780
01:15:58,980 --> 01:16:06,220
call it militarizing morality, where you get it goes so extreme, you get like the cancel

781
01:16:06,220 --> 01:16:15,660
culture mob. And that is not in any way, in my opinion, connected to anything moral any

782
01:16:15,660 --> 01:16:25,100
longer. So there needs to be like a sensitivity for the quality of it, not just the concept

783
01:16:25,100 --> 01:16:30,280
of it, like that doesn't feel right, you know, that's not actually productive, it's not going

784
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:36,720
to move us forward. So I just think like all of those, it's a combination of our weaknesses

785
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:43,940
in that regard, and our inability to dialogue, that's getting so extreme. It's unpopular.

786
01:16:43,940 --> 01:16:51,140
It's extremely unpopular to be saying the things that I'm saying, both camps are like,

787
01:16:51,140 --> 01:16:58,320
what, get over here, you're not allowed to like, have the objective. And you're not allowed

788
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:05,260
to facilitate a conversation between two different perspectives. mediation, like forget about

789
01:17:05,260 --> 01:17:10,440
it, resolutions, forget about it, we're not trying to resolve anything like this is full

790
01:17:10,440 --> 01:17:16,220
on war. Yeah, that's, that's the thing that's so concerning, because we're doing it to each

791
01:17:16,220 --> 01:17:23,900
other. And that's distracting us from the fact that that makes us vulnerable for the

792
01:17:23,900 --> 01:17:29,740
establishment to come in and just kind of make the final move, I guess you could say

793
01:17:29,740 --> 01:17:37,580
in certain ways. Yeah. Well, okay, so unconscious of your time, and I want to, there's a couple

794
01:17:37,580 --> 01:17:43,160
final points that I think are really interesting as to the content of your article and where

795
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:49,040
this has led. So I do think and also speaking of using kind of any crisis or any hot button

796
01:17:49,040 --> 01:17:56,180
topic to make things, you know, tied together, you have this very relevant situation militarily

797
01:17:56,180 --> 01:18:01,140
between Russia and Ukraine, which have geopolitical implications for the entire planet as we've

798
01:18:01,140 --> 01:18:06,060
lived collectively for the last year. Now there's disagreement as to what those are.

799
01:18:06,060 --> 01:18:16,580
And that is excellent. But Ukraine has been this tremendously interesting unraveling onion

800
01:18:16,580 --> 01:18:22,960
over the last year or so. And I would love if you could now take us through the relationship

801
01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:30,180
between everything we've talked about, specifically the subjects of your article, and Ukraine.

802
01:18:30,180 --> 01:18:41,200
Go for it. Yeah. Okay. So in, gosh, I want to say February 2022, little over a year ago,

803
01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:52,780
there was an FBI affidavit that was made public. And this affidavit was used in the indictment

804
01:18:52,780 --> 01:19:01,880
against Robert Rundle. So Robert and his Ram members in two separate trials have been indicted

805
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:10,400
for violence and conspiracy to riot. Robert Rundle and a number of others related to events

806
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:19,280
in California. But then this other group related to violence at Unite the Right. And the part

807
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:24,900
of the BBC article that is inaccurate is they claim that Rundle was present at Unite the

808
01:19:24,900 --> 01:19:31,660
Right and he wasn't he wasn't there was other Ram members. But we'll get to the article

809
01:19:31,660 --> 01:19:36,660
because that's sort of chronologically later. Yeah. So the so the Ram members who were present

810
01:19:36,660 --> 01:19:46,200
at Unite the Right are charged, three out of four of them serve time. The the case that

811
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:54,600
involved Rundle was dismissed. Let me see if I can get this timeline right. It's really

812
01:19:54,600 --> 01:20:03,540
tricky is it was dismissed. And well, first, he's indicted and he flees the country. And

813
01:20:03,540 --> 01:20:10,040
he goes down to El Salvador where he's apprehended and he's brought back. Okay, so that that

814
01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:19,860
matters in relationship to future information. He's brought back. He goes to trial and his

815
01:20:19,860 --> 01:20:36,240
in 2019 maybe. And then it's dismissed that year in 2019 because the judge determines

816
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:44,880
that the use of the interpretation of the laws over broad, right? Okay, so it's it all

817
01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:53,140
boils down to like, were they premeditatively planning to go riot or weren't they kind of.

818
01:20:53,140 --> 01:21:01,720
And so it's dismissed, even though the prosecution announces immediately that they're going to

819
01:21:01,720 --> 01:21:10,960
appeal and they file a motion to appeal, Rundle flees the country again. Now back to the time

820
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:17,800
he fled and went to El Salvador, he first tried to go to Europe and he flew to London,

821
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:22,740
but he was on a no fly list. So they sent him back. And then he crossed, he apparently

822
01:21:22,740 --> 01:21:33,160
crossed the border on foot, the Mexican border and went south. So we know that he was findable.

823
01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:40,500
We know that he was on a no fly list. We know that his prosecution in 2019 appealed immediately

824
01:21:40,500 --> 01:21:48,360
we know that there's a statement in the article from like FBI or someone he was he was considered

825
01:21:48,360 --> 01:21:58,240
a high risk flight risk and like a national security threat. And yet he somehow manages

826
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:05,480
to get out of the country and this time go to Eastern Europe where he lands in Serbia

827
01:22:05,480 --> 01:22:18,720
now. So in February of 2022, this FBI affidavit is made public that described this FBI agents

828
01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:27,040
documentation over the course of 2017, basically monitoring Robert Rundle and his fellow Ram

829
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:33,440
members and the part of the affidavit that was so explosive. And this was covered by

830
01:22:33,440 --> 01:22:42,160
a number of media outlets. So anyone can look this up is that the FBI agent details that

831
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:52,120
Robert Rundle had traveled to Ukraine. He had traveled with a couple fellow Ram members

832
01:22:52,120 --> 01:23:02,600
to Europe to a couple different countries, but he wound up in Ukraine. And he spent time

833
01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:12,040
with Olana Salmonyanka, who was the head of the National Corps, just like the political

834
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:18,920
wing of the Azov Battalion. And he you know, so it was reported on like he trained with

835
01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:26,840
the Azov Battalion. I've seen photographs of him at the Oh gosh, what is it called?

836
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:35,920
It's a boxing arena in Kiev, where he was in a MMA competition, mixed martial arts

837
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:40,200
competition, but they're just boxing, I don't know. And there's a couple other notable high

838
01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:48,040
profile individuals who are present and part of the story. So the reason why this matters

839
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:53,260
and this was also included in a number of the articles that were written about this

840
01:23:53,260 --> 01:24:02,520
affidavit and this information that came out is because of the CIA and other NATO intelligence

841
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:14,860
aspects, involvement in coming in basically just gutting Ukraine, unfortunately, and training

842
01:24:14,860 --> 01:24:22,400
doing doing this intensive paramilitary training. And you have Azov Battalion in its in its

843
01:24:22,400 --> 01:24:29,720
current form, which they've had a terribly, terribly difficult time they being the media

844
01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:37,780
and NATO and anyone pushing the acceptable narrative of covering up the consistent exposure

845
01:24:37,780 --> 01:24:46,240
of white nationalist tattoos, patches, propaganda, all this kind of stuff. Now, I don't actually

846
01:24:46,240 --> 01:24:52,600
like to use the word Nazi, because I don't know what that means actually in relationship

847
01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:59,920
to the current iteration of nationalism in Ukraine, for example, how much of that is

848
01:24:59,920 --> 01:25:06,640
organic, I don't know. I think that in those Eastern European countries, if I'm an intelligence

849
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:14,360
agency, and I want to train extremist paramilitary groups, I'm going to take that angle because

850
01:25:14,360 --> 01:25:22,400
there is something culturally amplifiable about nationalism in that region of the world.

851
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:30,480
So that whereas like in the Middle East, you would do religious radicalization, for example.

852
01:25:30,480 --> 01:25:37,560
So if that makes sense to me, so he winds up so little Robert Rundle winds up over there

853
01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:51,000
like canoodling with, you know, the military paramilitary high level individuals who are

854
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:58,720
working in tandem with or have handed themselves over to in a certain sense, the intelligence

855
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:05,640
apparatus to train them. And so some of these articles are like, okay, well, if Robert Rundle

856
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:11,280
went and trained with a Zof battalion, which was in turn trained by the CIA, like, couldn't

857
01:26:11,280 --> 01:26:20,000
you say the CIA is at least in part responsible for some of his activity because Selma Nyanke

858
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:26,840
even says, I think it's quoted in my article, she says like, he came to learn our ways,

859
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:33,360
and was excited to return to America to like inject them into his initiatives or whatever,

860
01:26:33,360 --> 01:26:43,760
something like that. So yeah, is is Ram and these related groups, are they like blowback,

861
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:52,640
which is the term for when the CIA like by an accident causes these kinds of situations?

862
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:59,960
Or is there something more going on? Yeah, so moderate rebels, which then become ISIS.

863
01:26:59,960 --> 01:27:12,560
Exactly, right. So he so that yeah, so the FBI affidavit documented 2017. That's quite

864
01:27:12,560 --> 01:27:24,200
a long time ago. He's indicted in 2018. He tries to flee. He's in in court in trial 2019.

865
01:27:24,200 --> 01:27:31,280
He gets dismissed. And then he leaves the country. So right before COVID March 2020.

866
01:27:31,280 --> 01:27:39,640
Yeah, timeline. And, and he goes to apparently Serbia. And he travels around a number of

867
01:27:39,640 --> 01:27:48,200
different countries there. And you know, the in the media, there's this mixture of kind

868
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:59,760
of contradictory parts to the story where he's a fugitive. He's being hunted. He's definitely

869
01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:07,720
a national security threat for any country he's in. Bellingcat, which is basically the

870
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:17,920
CIA and everything but name. It's funded by the Atlantic Council and pushes the NATO agenda

871
01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:27,480
took an interest in in monitoring and trying to track Rondo down and published a series

872
01:28:27,480 --> 01:28:35,800
of pieces in their where's Rondo series, where they were associated books, right where they

873
01:28:35,800 --> 01:28:42,520
do these like cat and mouse like fun like cat and mouse like gotcha pieces where they're

874
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:49,080
like, he posted a picture to his clothing brand line, and we geo located him just based

875
01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:53,560
on this tiny spot of paint on the wall behind him, blah, blah, blah. So they're like chasing

876
01:28:53,560 --> 01:29:01,540
him all the time and trying to figure out where he is. But I was in all of the RAM related

877
01:29:01,540 --> 01:29:12,080
social media down to his private channel. And when in those spaces, it didn't look like

878
01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:19,200
he was on the lam whatsoever. It just did. It looked like if you were over there and

879
01:29:19,200 --> 01:29:24,240
you were trying to track him down, it just wouldn't be that hard. He was like hanging

880
01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:31,680
out in cafes, going to boxing rings or whatever. And the timeline between the way that the

881
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:37,760
media reports, especially Bellingcat, I deed him in different places was actually contradicted

882
01:29:37,760 --> 01:29:44,920
by content he put in his own chats. Now, I don't know which one is true, but I can tell

883
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:50,760
you that it's notable that they don't even mention that content. So they create a timeline

884
01:29:50,760 --> 01:29:59,240
for the reader that contradicts the timeline he himself is like sharing media content out

885
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:04,880
of. And so it started to look like and I'll just give you one last example. Bellingcat

886
01:30:04,880 --> 01:30:13,600
journalists claimed at one point to send one of their journalists to try to geolocate

887
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:22,920
Rundle to like a town square. And while this journalist was there in the town square, they

888
01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:31,800
heard his voice behind them and they turned around and they saw Robert Rundle doing pushups

889
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:37,800
on the second story veranda of an apartment building. And like, why wasn't he arrested

890
01:30:37,800 --> 01:30:43,960
then? They don't even like follow that up with and we immediately called the authorities

891
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:50,280
and they take credit for him getting kicked out of Serbia, even though that's not confirmed

892
01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:56,760
and all these other things. So really looks like he wanders across borders. The intelligence

893
01:30:56,760 --> 01:31:05,520
in Bosnia like knew who he was, but didn't try to apprehend him. And so I made the case

894
01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:15,000
in my article that he was there wasn't an interest actually in trying to apprehend him

895
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:21,840
because he doesn't look like a threat. You know, he's really not that big of a threat.

896
01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:29,040
But the counter extremism project, which is like this global terror domestic terrorist

897
01:31:29,040 --> 01:31:35,520
agenda, you know, agency born out of the UN Council for Foreign Relation, some of the

898
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:44,240
most powerful dark individuals on the planet, ID Robert Rundle as the fourth most dangerous

899
01:31:44,240 --> 01:31:51,840
person in the world. And the only three more dangerous people in the world are like, you

900
01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:59,480
know, like head of Hamas and the like, cuds force in Iran and like, like, like legit,

901
01:31:59,480 --> 01:32:07,800
military backed state powers. And here's this guy like traipsing around, pushing his brand,

902
01:32:07,800 --> 01:32:11,600
he doesn't even have that many followers, and he's listed at number four and they can

903
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:19,240
no one can apprehend him. And that's weird. And, and then five days after I published

904
01:32:19,240 --> 01:32:25,240
my article after three years, he was arrested. Which is

905
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:34,600
Yeah, shocking. And so this happened so fast, I didn't even catch on. Excuse me, as you

906
01:32:34,600 --> 01:32:40,540
sent me your article, then you sent me Ronda was arrested. I wasn't even processing what

907
01:32:40,540 --> 01:32:46,480
any of that meant. So that's how quick and you know, that that's how quick this this

908
01:32:46,480 --> 01:32:52,600
happened. And this was five days ago that the BBC published this. Yeah, what happened?

909
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:58,600
What he was he was finally arrested in Romania. Yeah. On what grounds? What what what did

910
01:32:58,600 --> 01:33:06,040
they what was what's the story here? Right. So it is because he's a fugitive. It is because

911
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:15,360
he's wanted in the United States. And he's considered fleeing these charges. The part

912
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:26,920
that I can't say I know is whether or not there was a directive given to go after him

913
01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:35,280
that wasn't there before. Like if there was just a reason, you know, for example, they

914
01:33:35,280 --> 01:33:45,920
needed or updated the indictment, let's put it that way, in January of this year, there

915
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:52,800
could have been in earnest, you know, elevating of his status or something like that, that

916
01:33:52,800 --> 01:33:59,960
went along with that. So it still doesn't resolve many contradictions in the story,

917
01:33:59,960 --> 01:34:07,520
because he was described as wanted a fugitive had this supposed excellent journalist team

918
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:15,560
hunting him down literally to his doorstep over and over and over again. And so I don't

919
01:34:15,560 --> 01:34:22,640
know. But yeah, he's he was there was a tip. The story is there was a tip at a local gym.

920
01:34:22,640 --> 01:34:29,560
And the Romanian kind of there's a Romanian special task force that came in and arrested

921
01:34:29,560 --> 01:34:35,480
him. I've seen footage of the arrest. It's all very spectacle like, and he's being extradited

922
01:34:35,480 --> 01:34:45,240
to the United States to face his charges. What do you think you cause this? I don't

923
01:34:45,240 --> 01:34:55,360
have any idea. I will say that I my piece does not have a lot of views. I don't have

924
01:34:55,360 --> 01:35:03,520
a broad reach in that sense. But I do think that of the amount of people who have read

925
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:09,240
this piece, there are very likely a number of people who are monitoring my work and who

926
01:35:09,240 --> 01:35:22,560
and me at this point. And so and additionally, I do have to say that the there is a pattern

927
01:35:22,560 --> 01:35:33,640
of coincidences like this related to other times my work got disseminated in some way

928
01:35:33,640 --> 01:35:41,540
out there in the world where it then led to a result where the timing was really suspicious

929
01:35:41,540 --> 01:35:49,800
and it really seemed connected to I mean, I have a whole list of like terms I use that

930
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:55,760
are lower level consequences for my work getting out one is like the reconnoiter when like

931
01:35:55,760 --> 01:35:59,840
the bad guys are like, Oh shit, we've been exposed and they go quiet for three days and

932
01:35:59,840 --> 01:36:05,760
they just have to like regroup. You know, like that's an experience I've had a number

933
01:36:05,760 --> 01:36:14,480
of times but I've also seen some larger structures collapse or break down or go away. Yeah, within

934
01:36:14,480 --> 01:36:23,040
like 24 hours to a few days so I can't I'm not going to take credit the timing is pretty

935
01:36:23,040 --> 01:36:29,560
crazy though. Well, my what I think I said this to you on the phone yesterday. So, you

936
01:36:29,560 --> 01:36:35,440
know, if if it doesn't need to be even as direct as your article caused this, what I

937
01:36:35,440 --> 01:36:43,240
think is probably true, and and you are a trailblazer on this. So this this may be not

938
01:36:43,240 --> 01:36:51,240
entirely true, but the idea that your work represents a larger expansion of awareness

939
01:36:51,240 --> 01:36:59,280
among the population and certainly your article then contributes to that accelerating likely

940
01:36:59,280 --> 01:37:04,600
to an even higher degree than you are aware of based on the stats that substack gives

941
01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:13,240
you, you know, the analytics. But I think in general, like you and I are avatars of,

942
01:37:13,240 --> 01:37:18,640
we're just people as part of larger, you know, society and if we're paying attention, others

943
01:37:18,640 --> 01:37:23,640
are too. And others likely aren't publishing in the same way that you are. No one else

944
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:28,960
put this article together. You did it took you a year to put together a long time, a

945
01:37:28,960 --> 01:37:33,840
long time. Not everybody even has the ability to spend that much time said even if they

946
01:37:33,840 --> 01:37:38,200
wanted to, even if they have an even better understanding, which would be highly unlikely.

947
01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:46,000
So I suppose and let me know if you if you agree with with this theory that you and I

948
01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:55,080
and anybody else, the more we engage and spread awareness, but even then that implies we're

949
01:37:55,080 --> 01:38:00,160
necessarily correct. And that's not even the point. The point is more simply discussing

950
01:38:00,160 --> 01:38:05,280
issues that largely are apparently not supposed to be discussed or at least supposed to be

951
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:12,080
discussed in very controlled ways. You know, as you said, the acceptable narrative. Could

952
01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:17,760
it be that simply by continuing to hold spaces like this, either, you know, discussion format

953
01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:22,320
like this or the publication of excellent, well researched, well documented articles

954
01:38:22,320 --> 01:38:30,480
like yours, are we are we simply contributing to the larger societal push in the right direction,

955
01:38:30,480 --> 01:38:35,920
hopefully the right direction? Even in the absence of your article being the specific

956
01:38:35,920 --> 01:38:43,800
straw, it could that be the case? That our work is meaningful and productive. I guess

957
01:38:43,800 --> 01:38:52,280
that's a better way of solving it. Out of this mess. I mean, you know, I hope just do

958
01:38:52,280 --> 01:39:03,080
what's put before you to do, you know, I, I hope that's my hope. And I, in this particular

959
01:39:03,080 --> 01:39:08,720
case, in this particular story, just to bring it back to Chatham, you know, you could say,

960
01:39:08,720 --> 01:39:16,240
like, I wrote this article for the locals that exist in their various places all over

961
01:39:16,240 --> 01:39:25,360
the country. With the hope that people don't fall for it. You know, I mean, that's the

962
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:33,200
whole point. The whole point is like, don't believe these guys, don't go in and get involved

963
01:39:33,200 --> 01:39:41,080
in these groups. Don't think like, because you need brotherhood and culture and community,

964
01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:50,080
it's then also okay to like slowly accept like real racist thinking. And, and that these

965
01:39:50,080 --> 01:39:56,800
groups as far as I'm concerned, are by design, there to push the narrative, push the division

966
01:39:56,800 --> 01:40:03,840
and entrap people. And they do that on both sides. But in this particular case, I don't

967
01:40:03,840 --> 01:40:09,440
want to see my people get sucked into this crap. And I don't want these jerks who think

968
01:40:09,440 --> 01:40:15,080
this stuff up, and think it's okay to like disseminate these operations into small towns

969
01:40:15,080 --> 01:40:23,960
across America, to get away with it any longer. So anyways, that's just trying to like, expose

970
01:40:23,960 --> 01:40:30,200
what I think is going on out of a gesture of protection.

971
01:40:30,200 --> 01:40:34,800
I think that's the most important part. And the starting at the bottom and going like,

972
01:40:34,800 --> 01:40:41,080
at the local level is where things are actually, that's where things actually happen. The big

973
01:40:41,080 --> 01:40:46,400
narratives tend to happen on the country or the state or the or the or the global level.

974
01:40:46,400 --> 01:40:53,040
But in the end, when it comes to implementing new, you know, sustainable development agendas,

975
01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:58,440
that happens at the district at the city at the town level, when it comes to people actually

976
01:40:58,440 --> 01:41:03,920
going out and protesting, it is the people largely of that area that are engaging. So

977
01:41:03,920 --> 01:41:09,720
the fact that you identified real people not that far from you, who are going to be affected

978
01:41:09,720 --> 01:41:14,040
by this who have been affected by this, and the fact that you then saw an opportunity

979
01:41:14,040 --> 01:41:22,640
to educate those people has the opportunity to educate, hopefully, as we've done here,

980
01:41:22,640 --> 01:41:27,900
people from all over the world. Because there are people in the chat who have been responding,

981
01:41:27,900 --> 01:41:31,320
you know, from North Carolina, for example, saying, interesting, I'm going to go and look

982
01:41:31,320 --> 01:41:35,600
into that North Carolina chapter, see what I can find there. You know, we've talked about

983
01:41:35,600 --> 01:41:43,480
the Canadian and the Ukrainian and the European aspects of this. And it's like we said before,

984
01:41:43,480 --> 01:41:48,400
it's it's there are specific people of interest. But in the end, it's more the process and

985
01:41:48,400 --> 01:41:54,920
the tactics and the patterns that we can identify and then kind of not be as you say, sucked

986
01:41:54,920 --> 01:42:00,920
into fooled by in any context, whatever the next hot button issue is. Am I right about

987
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:08,400
that? Sounds sounds correct to me. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you, Kristin, so much for spending

988
01:42:08,400 --> 01:42:12,260
this much time with us. We had said we might try an hour. And look at that. We're coming

989
01:42:12,260 --> 01:42:17,680
up on to and I think that's because this has been just tremendously interesting stuff.

990
01:42:17,680 --> 01:42:25,100
And you are a fantastic presenter. And somebody in the chat Monkey King 1981 said, Wow, she

991
01:42:25,100 --> 01:42:35,240
is an encyclopedia. I agree. You are an encyclopedia. And you know, and there were a couple of things

992
01:42:35,240 --> 01:42:38,880
I wanted to bring up and that others in the chat I brought up that that we didn't have

993
01:42:38,880 --> 01:42:44,200
the chance to. So if you're open to it, I'd love to have you back for for a follow up

994
01:42:44,200 --> 01:42:51,160
discussion either on this or on whatever the next step in the investigative process is.

995
01:42:51,160 --> 01:42:56,440
So on that, is there anything you want to leave people with? What are the next steps

996
01:42:56,440 --> 01:43:07,360
for you? Yeah, I guess I do want to just say something about January 6 real quick in relationship

997
01:43:07,360 --> 01:43:18,320
to all of this, because that's a focal point clearly around control and the political division

998
01:43:18,320 --> 01:43:27,880
and persecution. There's hundreds and hundreds of individuals that have been locked up for

999
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:41,000
over 750 days, mostly in solitary confinement, who did absolutely nothing violent or, you

1000
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:50,220
know, in the spirit of destruction. And, you know, a political prisoner is a political

1001
01:43:50,220 --> 01:43:58,440
prisoner at the end of the day. And so there is there's like some real dark stuff going

1002
01:43:58,440 --> 01:44:07,320
on around that particular group of people. And I think that that has a lot to do with

1003
01:44:07,320 --> 01:44:15,760
the broader story as it unfolds. Were it a different demographic in a different time

1004
01:44:15,760 --> 01:44:23,320
in a different context, I would care equally as much. So it's it's the human element and

1005
01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:31,540
the human story. And the related political and identity stuff matters as a student of

1006
01:44:31,540 --> 01:44:38,740
life doing research and trying to understand what's going on. But it's shocking to me that

1007
01:44:38,740 --> 01:44:44,800
so much injustice and suffering can take place in so many different ways. And we can be brought

1008
01:44:44,800 --> 01:44:52,360
to a place where we care about the one but not the other. So yeah, I guess I just wanted

1009
01:44:52,360 --> 01:44:59,580
to mention them. And I think for me, a next step is probably putting together the research

1010
01:44:59,580 --> 01:45:06,920
I've done over a couple years now on that story. And I'm happy to come back whenever

1011
01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:08,920
you want, Liam.

1012
01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:16,960
Oh, well, amazing. Well, and I would love for when when you do get that put together,

1013
01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:24,480
will that likely be published on Beyond the Maze as well? Yeah. So let's use this as as

1014
01:45:24,480 --> 01:45:32,760
an opportunity to remind people beyond themaze.substack.com is where you can find Kristen's work. Everybody,

1015
01:45:32,760 --> 01:45:38,800
if you have not yet, you should go and read up on their, you know, six to eight articles

1016
01:45:38,800 --> 01:45:43,560
out so far, maybe. Oh, no, there's more. You've been very busy. And they're all worth the

1017
01:45:43,560 --> 01:45:48,160
read. That's the best place I assume to go if you want to be a paid supporter. People

1018
01:45:48,160 --> 01:45:56,320
can can become paid supporters there. And when this this this research on January 6

1019
01:45:56,320 --> 01:46:01,000
is put together in a form we can go through, I would love to do another episode just like

1020
01:46:01,000 --> 01:46:08,320
this. And in the meantime, because this you're correct to throw the red flag of urgency on

1021
01:46:08,320 --> 01:46:13,340
this as well. So if even before something more substantial comes out, if there are any

1022
01:46:13,340 --> 01:46:19,600
opportunities for people to go learn more, or potentially, if they feel it's correct,

1023
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:24,320
support individuals who are in the middle of some of them some pretty intense and ridiculous

1024
01:46:24,320 --> 01:46:30,760
legal battles. Let don't hesitate to get that to me. And I will do what I can to to get

1025
01:46:30,760 --> 01:46:37,400
that out to people as well. I could just mention really quick, a couple websites people could

1026
01:46:37,400 --> 01:46:44,400
go to. And I also I really encourage people to actually look into some of the personal

1027
01:46:44,400 --> 01:46:51,440
stories of some of these individuals, because I really strongly believe that disseminating

1028
01:46:51,440 --> 01:46:59,360
these stories would help undo all the work that's gone into framing a narrative that

1029
01:46:59,360 --> 01:47:04,640
is completely off the mark, mostly off the mark, and involves like young people, you

1030
01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:10,000
know, there's Brent, this guy, Brendan fellows is in his 20s. He's like, one report said

1031
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:15,400
he's on the spectrum. He's autistic. He like walked into the Capitol. Anyways, I could

1032
01:47:15,400 --> 01:47:20,320
I could tell you a lot, but he actually was not. He was not incarcerated initially, but

1033
01:47:20,320 --> 01:47:26,560
he said something disrespectful to his parole officer. And so they decided to throw him

1034
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:32,360
in jail. And he was in solitary confinement. He said he wouldn't negotiate with terrorists

1035
01:47:32,360 --> 01:47:38,360
because he he didn't have because it was COVID. You know, there's like there's meaningful,

1036
01:47:38,360 --> 01:47:47,280
meaningful stories. So one is Americans for Justice. I think that's a for j.org. The letter

1037
01:47:47,280 --> 01:47:58,800
a the number four. The letter j.org. Gosh, what American Gulag is American Gulag calm,

1038
01:47:58,800 --> 01:48:08,080
I believe is another good resource. And there's CAP, there's citizens against political persecution.

1039
01:48:08,080 --> 01:48:14,680
Yeah, and actually American Gulag, the website somewhere on their lists, all of the different

1040
01:48:14,680 --> 01:48:20,160
organizations and the various websites that exist. For various things, there's like a

1041
01:48:20,160 --> 01:48:26,080
letters to prisoners program, there's a way you can donate for food, because that was

1042
01:48:26,080 --> 01:48:31,720
one of the ways that they were being mistreated in a number of cases was their food was rotten,

1043
01:48:31,720 --> 01:48:38,760
that they were being fed. And there's one website listed on American Gulag that is the

1044
01:48:38,760 --> 01:48:47,000
placeholder for letters and stories from the prisoners to reach the public. So it's all

1045
01:48:47,000 --> 01:48:54,160
just content from the prisoners themselves. And there's a spectrum of, you know, people

1046
01:48:54,160 --> 01:48:59,600
in there and stories and circumstances, but there's definitely a lot of people in there

1047
01:48:59,600 --> 01:49:05,160
that shouldn't be. And full disclosure, I haven't myself, I'm not familiar with these

1048
01:49:05,160 --> 01:49:11,400
websites. So just the friendly disclaimer of I'm, I'm very happy to share them. And

1049
01:49:11,400 --> 01:49:16,000
I am, I have no reason to doubt they are not exactly what Kristen is saying. And I hope

1050
01:49:16,000 --> 01:49:20,960
people will go and explore for themselves. And as Kristen says, the stories of these

1051
01:49:20,960 --> 01:49:27,320
individual people, not the caricatures that many people, including myself at the time,

1052
01:49:27,320 --> 01:49:34,640
understood them to be. So let's let's hope others can step up and engage on this as well.

1053
01:49:34,640 --> 01:49:43,600
And really quickly, scroll down on the right there on the front page of that one. Keep

1054
01:49:43,600 --> 01:49:50,240
going. Oh, I don't know where it is. Okay, forget it. There's somewhere on this website,

1055
01:49:50,240 --> 01:49:57,680
there's a map of the United States. And you can click on Yeah, arrest map. There you go.

1056
01:49:57,680 --> 01:50:05,200
You can click on any state to randomly click on a state and see what happens. New York.

1057
01:50:05,200 --> 01:50:10,040
And then you scroll down and you see all of the individuals that have been arrested from

1058
01:50:10,040 --> 01:50:18,400
that state. And you can click on them. And you can read anything. Oh, that's interesting.

1059
01:50:18,400 --> 01:50:24,840
No one in Wyoming. That's Wyoming didn't show up. Or they're really good at not getting

1060
01:50:24,840 --> 01:50:30,480
ID'd. And you can click on individuals and you can get all of the records related to

1061
01:50:30,480 --> 01:50:37,960
that person's case and trial. Anyways, yeah, that's wonderful. Okay, thank you. That's

1062
01:50:37,960 --> 01:50:44,400
a tremendous resource. Okay, well, that's that's fantastic. Thank you so much, Kristen.

1063
01:50:44,400 --> 01:50:50,560
And once again, just a just one more plug beyond the maze dot sub deck.com everybody.

1064
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:55,520
And while I have everyone here, I want to also give a specific shout out to rounding

1065
01:50:55,520 --> 01:51:00,040
the earth dot locals.com where we have been having a tremendous discussion this entire

1066
01:51:00,040 --> 01:51:04,580
time. A lot of what we've talked about today revolves around community or how community

1067
01:51:04,580 --> 01:51:10,600
can be hijacked, manufactured impacted in various ways. Well, we've got a cool, awesome,

1068
01:51:10,600 --> 01:51:15,880
smart, healthy community of people who do not agree on everything, and therefore often

1069
01:51:15,880 --> 01:51:21,840
wind up teaching each other a lot. And I am tremendously grateful for it. And so it's

1070
01:51:21,840 --> 01:51:27,180
also, it also happens to be the number one way you can support rounding the earth and

1071
01:51:27,180 --> 01:51:32,760
support me. I'm very lucky. Matthew Crawford has given me a platform on rounding the earth

1072
01:51:32,760 --> 01:51:39,680
to have discussions like this one with Kristen. I'm very happily paid to do this job. And

1073
01:51:39,680 --> 01:51:47,200
it's a huge, a huge gift that I don't want to go unthanked. And so therefore, I want

1074
01:51:47,200 --> 01:51:54,920
to as often as I can, as reasonably as I can, request that people support rounding the earth,

1075
01:51:54,920 --> 01:51:59,540
not just to continue my employment, that's not the point, but to continue to support

1076
01:51:59,540 --> 01:52:06,440
a platform started by a gentleman who seems to genuinely care about holding open, honest

1077
01:52:06,440 --> 01:52:12,880
discussion, particularly with those he may not agree with. And the best way to do that

1078
01:52:12,880 --> 01:52:16,920
rounding the earth dot local.com, you can become a paid supporter. And by the way, not

1079
01:52:16,920 --> 01:52:20,800
everyone can. And that's okay, because you could also join as a free member and keep

1080
01:52:20,800 --> 01:52:25,400
up to date with everything we're doing. How was that as a plug? Was that okay?

1081
01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:31,400
Excellent. Okay, cool. Okay, well, thank you again so much. Thank you to everybody who

1082
01:52:31,400 --> 01:52:38,120
has been watching on all of our platforms. And yeah, I'll be back myself on Friday for

1083
01:52:38,120 --> 01:52:42,640
an episode of rounding the news, where I'll cover some interesting stuff. And there will

1084
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:48,880
be a locals exclusive super fun supporters only episode with Matthew and possibly myself

1085
01:52:48,880 --> 01:52:55,320
tonight. And yeah, any final words, Kristen, before I hit that fun outro song?

1086
01:52:55,320 --> 01:53:01,720
No, I just I had a really good time with you. I really like talking to you. It's easy. And

1087
01:53:01,720 --> 01:53:07,380
I appreciate you. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate you as well, Kristen. Thank you.

1088
01:53:07,380 --> 01:53:26,920
And we will talk again very shortly. Okay.