[00:00:07] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: Welcome to Women in Analytics After Hours, the podcast where we hang out and learn with the WIA community. Each episode, we sit down with women in the data and analytics space to talk about what they do, how they got there, where they found analytics along the way, and more. I'm your host, Lauren Burke, and I'd like to thank you for joining us.
So this is our first ever episode with two guests, and today we have Meghan Anzelc and Christina Fernandes-D'Souza joining us.
[00:00:46] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: Meghan is experienced executive in driving positive business impact through the use of data, AI, and technology.
She is the Chief Data and Analytics Officer at Three Arc Advisory, and she has a PhD in Experimental High Energy Particle Physics from Northwestern. Christina has over 15 years of global, cross industry experience combining strategy, data, and AI in both the private and public sectors. She is currently the Director of Data Science at Three Arc Advisory.
And she holds a Master's in Applied Mathematics with a concentration in Actuarial Science. I am very excited to have both of them here with us today. So welcome, Christina and Meghan, and thank you so much for taking the time to join us.
[00:01:40] Meghan Anzelc: Thanks to so much for having us.
[00:01:43] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Yes, Lauren, first, thank you so much for having us.
[00:01:47] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: And so for today's topic, we are actually going to be chatting about your intertwined career journeys, which is a real world example of some of the benefits of mutual support and mentorship in career advancement. So with that, my first question is, how did you get connected to one another?
[00:02:10] Meghan Anzelc: Yeah, we, we first met when we both worked for Zurich, which is an insurance carrier. And Christina had been on the team and I was joining new. So I was stepping into a new leadership role, one that offered a significant increase in scope of responsibility from my last role. So it was the first time I was managing managers and a much larger scale team. 
And as part of my onboarding to the company, I wanted to really get to know everybody on, on the team, both in terms of their work and what they were doing, but also their career aspirations and what they hope to do. And so through that, I met with everybody on the team individually.
So that was really my first memory of Christina is meeting with her one on one. To get a feel for her work and what she was doing and what she was interested in.
[00:03:00] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Yeah. So for me. Meghan was when she joined, uh, she was my boss's boss. And through some organizational changes, I directly, uh, started directly reporting to Meghan. And soon after that, I had a family, a close family member, emergency health issue, and I remember, you know, just, sort of going through that process and in a complete blur, the memories are a blur to me. But I vividly remember Meghan's empathetic, you know, leadership and support during that time, um, from talking, talking with me, figuring out, you know, how can she support me with my work?
Uh, she had family members who have gone through similar, you know, health crisis. She offered, um, for me to talk to them to get, you know, that additional support. I can just remember, walking away to take care of my family member without the pressures of work. Like having everything sort of kept ready and in place because Meghan helped me and supported me.
[00:04:10] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That's awesome. And I know that was back in 2015, right? So since then you've said you've worked together at three different organizations. Have your roles looked different in the way that you've been collaborating at each of those organizations?
[00:04:26] Meghan Anzelc: I, I would say yes, absolutely. I think it's evolved sort of in a couple of ways. So one is, I think, kind of the natural progression. As you get to know someone better and you work with them more, there are certain things that just become easier. It's very easy for Christina and I to sort of pick up some new piece of work and Kind of cut through to what's most important and how do we start making progress?
We know each other's styles very well. We know how each other works very well. So there's sort of an ease and a comfort level that comes with just the time itself. But I think the other part is the actual kind of nature of the relationship has changed as the roles and companies have been different. So in that first experience working together, like Christina said, right, I was her boss's boss at the beginning, and then she reported to me directly, and it was a much larger team with a lot of, um, a lot of significant changes on the team.
So there was a lot of. Um, kind of struggle among team members as they were getting kind of settled in and really trying to transition that, that entire team to a higher performing organization. And so just the nature of the relationship, I think was a bit different just because of the scale and size of the team.
Whereas at Spencer Stuart, when I was trying to recruit Christina in to come work with me, that was a very different dynamic. So because it was a build from scratch function, I was the only person on the team at the beginning. And so Christina was the first person I wanted to hire in. And part of my conversation with her was around how things would be different because there would only be two of us at the start, that hopefully gave her a lot of exposure and flexibility to try out different things and to participate in different aspects of the work, then perhaps what there was the flexibility to do when it was a much larger team, right? With a lot of responsibilities that had to be delegated. 
Um, and then it was also very uncertain in the sense that because it was new for the organization, I really didn't know what was going to work, where we were going to have success or failure, what we were our challenges were going to be.
And so very much wanted to have a partner in figuring that out and collaborating very closely together. So it was a little bit different dynamic, I think. To me, because of the context and the situations that the different companies were in at the points in time where we worked together.
[00:06:55] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Yeah, I agree with Meghan. It was back in 2015, uh, when I worked for her at Zurich because it was such a large team and I was growing in, in my roles and responsibilities, the dynamic dynamics were very different. Um, I didn't wear a lot of hats like I did at Spencer Stuart. Like Meghan said, we were a small team and we were building from scratch.
And so I wore a lot of hats and in order to succeed in doing that, I needed a lot of support from Meghan, um, and a lot of trust and flexibility to do, try out, do new things and do different things. And learn from if I had any failures to learn from it really quickly with her support.
[00:07:42] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That's awesome. And that's, uh, that's so interesting to hear how each of those experiences you're collaborating with each other kind of in the same way, but the roles and the organizational structures around you are the thing that's changing, but the relationship at the core, that support and mentorship has been maintained.
[00:08:04] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Exactly.
[00:08:06] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: And so I know at Spencer Stuart, you together worked to actually build out the data and analytics function from scratch. So Christina, moving into a role where you are now on such a smaller team, now supporting Meghan, what did your experience look like and how did you support each other through this?
[00:08:27] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Right. So we were a small, but mighty team of two in a new industry. And, you know, in our past experience with the insurance industry, We aligned and collaborated a lot with actuaries who are, you know, data oriented like us. Who have built trust and credibility in the insurance industry. 
But with Spencer Stuart, it was, uh, a different industry, you know, professional services and executive search. In particular, we didn't have colleagues that we could look for support right from the start. And the fact that It was from scratch the first time around a lot of, you know, uh, uncertainty in, in building it out. And so we really had to lean on each other and learn from each other and trust each other and pick up at areas that we saw were, you know, needed attention. 
Meghan was really concentrating on getting sponsorship from other areas, but I needed help, you know, in the technical space, I would have, you know, lean on Meghan. You know, get her advice on how to navigate, um, those sort of experiences.
[00:09:45] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That's interesting. So you are not only learning the kind of operational side, the strategy side of setting this up, but also the leadership side, like how you build out relationships with others. I know something you've talked about before is building allies as well. Um, so I can imagine that for you as well, Meghan, was really a good experience just to learn more about different ways to collaborate and how to collaborate with these different cross functional areas.
[00:10:16] Meghan Anzelc: Absolutely. And I, I learned a ton from Christina through that process in, in many ways. And I remember a conversation we were having, like she said, where a lot of our conversations were focused on like, how do we um, divide and conquer the work. How do we support each other and, and figure out what are the best paths to get to where we're trying to go.
And I remember having a conversation with her, I don't remember the exact topic, but it had to do with building some of these cross functional relationships. And I was describing to her how I saw the situation currently with one of the other teams and what I was trying to achieve. 
And Christina was like, oh, I've also done these 18 other things over the past few months that I didn't bother telling you because it wasn't important at the time, but I now know really well how to navigate through this team. And by the way, you should include this in how you're speaking to this leader. Because I've learned that that really resonates and you should watch out for these two other things because I've learned that, you know, leadership on the team has gotten burned through that in the past. It was just the most fascinating conversation and really eye opening to me of both, I knew that Christina was great at building relationships and finding ways to break through barriers to get what she needed out of something, but just seeing some of that kind of show up in real life in a meaningful example was impactful, and she had insight into the organization that I just didn't.
And because she had approached the organization differently than I had and was talking to different people than I was. And so had a completely different perspective, but incredibly value add. And so I've learned very much as a leader that, you know, yes, I need to be building relationships across the organization.
I need to be managing up. All of that sort of thing, but being able to really take advantage of the ways in which other people on your team built relationships, the ways people information gather and find ways to break through friction points can be incredibly valuable. 
And, and I think leaders are missing out if they're not paying attention to their team members. And, and the ways in which their team members have identified to, to get things done, right. And to build successful relationships. So that was sort of the start of an incredibly new, not new, but sort of a whole section of our relationship that was incredibly valuable to be able to get things done in this environment where it was just the two of us.
And there was so much uncertainty, um, and so much, you know, sort of potential risk of getting it wrong and, and not being able to be successful. So I think that was it. something that really let us be much more successful much faster because we were finding ways to take advantage of each other's strengths and what each of us was learning in the organization.
[00:13:14] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That is so interesting. And Christina, if you don't mind, could you share a little bit more about your approach to building relationships, finding supporters and allies as you are maybe building out a new function or just learning about a new organization?
[00:13:36] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: So, I don't have a roadmap to that. I think it's really organic, um, and genuine in building those relationships with my peers or my colleagues. Really presenting myself as trying to figure out what they need and how I can help them. And organically from that they end up, you know, providing me the same support.
 The intention is always let's provide impact and we'll do it together and we can do it together. Um, and I think people tend to trust. You know, I focus on trust and they tend to trust me and, and through that trust, you know, they open up in and letting me know some of the dynamics of the organization, um, that are in play and that I wouldn't have known having, you know, just entered the role. So I think that's really been, if you will, my secret sauce and um, it's a two way, it's a two way relationship and you always have to keep, keep that in mind. 
Yeah. I think that's, that's really how what's helped me, you know, build strong relationships with people.
[00:15:03] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That's awesome. It's it makes so much sense. It's really focusing on that, that it is a collaboration that if you're working at the same organization on the same team or on different teams, you have that shared goal, and you're going to be able to achieve it faster and more productively and with maybe even bigger impact, if you are aligned on doing that together and willing to work together as cohesively as possible to make that happen. 
[00:15:31] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Absolutely.
[00:15:32] Meghan Anzelc: I think the other thing that Christina does really well is to find ways to use me and my role to help with some of that in, in ways that are appropriate. So a couple of examples, right? There were many times where Christina has come to me and said, you know what, Meghan, I've been talking to this, this group, this team, and they're doing, they're going through such a painful process on this task that they have to do.
And I think there's a way we could help them. And what I want to do is I want to take X days of my time or the time of my team and divert it and use it to help this other team, right? Which is, which is amazing in so many ways. Um, so one is, is sort of that. Keeping me in the loop as to her perspective on where our time as a, as a small team was going to be most valuable sort of collectively for the organization and reprioritizing to what she saw as being the most important and impactful at different points in time.
Um, and then sort of bringing me in where, where needed, right? Of like, can you give a heads up to so and so, um, because that message needs to come from you that, that this is happening, right? Or. Um, there were a number of times where Christina came to me and said, you know what, this person has been really helpful and I need you to thank them because it's going to be really meaningful if you send a note to them and their boss describing their contributions and how helpful they've been to me and to our team.
Um, Right, or let's take so and so out to lunch because they did a whole bunch of extra work on the side to help us out. Can you, you know, organize a lunch? Can you buy lunch for the team? Right, those sorts of things, really small stuff. But I think one of Christina's real strengths is knowing where to use me.
Right, and kind of my role and and, uh, the whether it's the budget or the title or the, you know, messaging, whatever is kind of going to be helpful and finding ways to really add meaningful about value back to those relationships. Like she said, right? That that sort of two way street. Um, but really spending time to identify what's going to be most meaningful for that other team member, whether that's, you know, public recognition or a note to their boss or, or just taking them out for lunch and spending a little time getting to know them.
So I think that's another kind of key strength that Christina has in this relationship building is finding ways to really, you know, get recognized people's contributions in ways that are incredibly meaningful to them.
[00:18:12] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Thank you for that, Meghan. Um, I'd like to add, it's not always easy to take things back to your boss and reprioritize and Meghan makes it very easy. She, you know, has built a great relationship with me. And, um, I think you would say that, you know, that, that trust that is involved in a relationship comes from the leader.
And so Meghan's made it very comfortable for me to call her. Go to her and say, I think we need to do this, or I think we need to reprioritize what we're working on to help another team. And she trusts that, that what I'm bringing to her is of value. And that's really important in a leader to be able to go to your leader and, you know, sort of have them have your back, if you will.
[00:19:01] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That's, that's so awesome. So not just supporting each other and supporting others you work with, but helping each other support other people in the best way possible.
[00:19:13] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Absolutely.
[00:19:14] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That's amazing. I love that, how second nature that now is in a part of the way you collaborate. Uh, that's, that's such a great skill to have, and I can only imagine how valuable that makes both of you, especially working together in any organization you're in.
[00:19:33] Meghan Anzelc: We also have a lot of fun that helps.
[00:19:37] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That's awesome. And so kind of along the same lines, how have you each benefited from being connected with each other and collaborating together both in organizations and just along your career journeys?
[00:19:50] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Yeah, so Christina here. So I think it's really important to highlight that we choose to collaborate and stay connected because we enjoy working together. We enjoy learning from each other. And like Meghan said, it's overall been a very fun experience. And that we continue to champion for each other.
So having someone like that in your corner makes it so much easier to navigate the trials and so much more fun when you experience the triumphs. Uh, I'd say, you know, observing Meghan as a leader. I've learned what it truly means to be a best leader you have to lead with your followers in mind.
Um, as I've said before, Meghan's built a relationship with me where I really feel safe to express my thoughts, my ideas. You know, give my feedback and even difference, uh, in opinion. I've learned from her how important it is to empower people to make decisions for themselves and take ownership of their work all while providing resources they need and finding ways to develop their skills.
What I've learned that Meghan does really well is she has the great ability to set a clear vision, provide real practical solutions, especially in ambiguous situations. And that has helped me tremendously in my approach to problem solving. 
Another great skill she has is in facilitating conversations. You know where you have members of cross functional teams coming in together. Um, and everyone has their own perspective. So really facilitating conversations where you're resulting in, you know, productive outcomes is still something that I'm trying to learn effectively from her.
[00:21:49] Meghan Anzelc: And I've, I've learned just so much from Christina and continue to learn so much. And I think in addition to some of the things I've, I've already highlighted, I think there's sort of the, the building of trust that Christina has touched on a few times that I think has helped enable all of this. Um, benefit from our, our relationship over the years to, to happen, right.
And I think some of that goes back to very early in our relationship where she mentioned having a family crisis and needing support to be able to take care of her family situation. And at the time we didn't know each other very well. And of course the right answer is to give people what they need to take care of their lives inside and outside of work.
That is absolutely just the right answer. What I think is often underappreciated by bosses and managers and leaders is that doing that in ways that are effective for the individual pays off so enormously. And I did not know that at the time, right? I did it because it was the right thing to do because it's what I would want someone to do for me if I was in the same situation. I had not anticipated or expected the tenfold payback that Christina gave me, right? That by giving her that ability to take care of what she needed to take care of, she was incredibly dedicated, focused, driven, impactful, helpful, right? Like all of the things in ways that were just extraordinary.
And I think over the years from that trust, right, we're at a point where I know that I can go to Christina at any point in time and say, um, you know what? We had that podcast recording with, with Lauren and I think I flubbed this. What do you think? I feel like I missed this thing and Christina will give me her honest answer, right?
She will be diplomatic and kind in the way that she gives me feedback, but she will give me what she sees, right? And her perspective on the situation. And so that, that's really, really valuable. And I think another piece that's often undervalued by leaders is, um, when you start, you know, kind of managing whole programs and departments, you lose your connection to much of the day to day if you aren't really careful about how you approach it. 
And so having someone like Christina to go to and say, um, you know, here's the messages I want to get across in the presentation I'm going to give next week. Did these actually come across to you or not? Right? And, and did I miss something? So that ability to get like honest feedback and her coming to me with things that aren't working.
Like, hey, by the way, you don't code anymore but these 14 things are broken and we need to fix them. And here's the two actions I need you to take to help enable these things to be fixed. Right. That's incredibly impactful and powerful, but that comes from that longstanding trust that we have in each other, right?
And that ability to be vulnerable and to know that the other person is still supporting us, even if they agree, right? Even if Christina walks away from this and says, Yep, Meghan, you totally flubbed the podcast. This whole section was terrible, right? Um, but knowing that there's that support behind it of, of that, regardless of the outcome, she's looking out for me, too.
Um, I think it's something that's been such a rich part of our relationship that has grown from this many years of working together in many situations, in numerous companies, and it's so, it's so rewarding and so valuable.
[00:25:32] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That's awesome. It's great to have that unbiased feedback, but also then the support. in the case that you need to give that feedback. Um, but I do want to say both of you are knocking it out of the park. So hopefully there will be no post podcast conversations. 
Um, but I do want to touch on something that we talked about while we were prepping for this. And you touched a little bit on earlier while you were talking, Meghan, which is followership. So can you just share what followership is and why it is so important as a leader?
[00:26:08] Meghan Anzelc: I think from my perspective, it is. That ability to kind of set the vision and to have people buy into it and in that level of trust. Right? I think the real trust in the leader that the direction they're setting and where they're trying to go and how they're trying to bring you there, um, you buy into, right?
And you're willing to follow, even if you don't understand all the pieces or if there's, you know, a high level of uncertainty or ambiguity in the situation, right? But sort of that trust in, in that vision and that person's ability to lead through a situation. I, it's not a trait that I had really appreciated early in my career.
And I think I've learned how important and impactful it is. So, so one I think is from our time at Spencer Stuart hearing how the executive search industry talks about followership and views followership as a valuable trait. So that on a, on its own was something that I hadn't appreciated before. And then the other piece is what I think we alluded to earlier, that you can move much faster and build momentum and accelerate your progress much more easily.
When that trust is already there. And so having that ability to, to build followership, um, lets you take kind of calculated risks. This might be uncertain. This might not work, but if people believe in the vision and in your ability to lead through the situation, right, they're willing to take those risks with you.
And you can just move much more quickly. And I think kind of build that momentum towards success much faster when you have people. Very clearly, right? When you have people who are willing to follow you, um, and the more of those people who are willing to follow, you know, almost sort of sight unseen, the faster you can do that, right?
Because you're not sort of spending a lot of time up front with the buy in process, um, but instead sort of, like, jumping immediately into what it is you're trying to accomplish. And then again, that working together to adjust And make sure that you're all on the right path and that, you know, things are going well.
So, those are a couple of the things I'd highlight. 
[00:28:34] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Yeah. So I, you know, I agree with Meghan with everything she said, you know, uh, followership. It's really a style and approach, um, that people want to follow and will follow. And I, I didn't realize how important it was until I started to move into leadership roles and wished I had certain of People on my team that I've worked with, you know, on the, in the past, it's helpful.
I find to have a blend of people you've worked with, um, because you already have those relationships with them. You know, which skills you can hone in on to get faster impact while allowing you to build relationships with new members on your team. And to Meghan's point at Spencer Stuart. We really learned with executive search how valuable, um, followership is and what, what emphasis executive search puts on that, that skill, uh, for when they're looking for executives to fill in, to fill a role, you know, a CFO, CEO is really important, um, skill to have.
[00:29:44] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: Absolutely. And I think that kind of goes along like tools in your leadership toolkit that you're building along the way. And that kind of leads me into the question that I like to ask with every one of these episodes, which is what is a resource that has helped you in your career and that you think might help others listening today?
Christina, if you want to start with your resource.
[00:30:11] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Yeah. Um, so I don't think I have one particular resource. But what's helped me in my career, uh, is really learning the art of negotiating and it's not come from, like I said, not just one resource. Like it's over the years, it's been sometimes books, sometimes podcasts, but the primary resource has helped me is really just talking to people. Talking to women, talking to men, um, getting their different perspective on how they negotiate, how do they, how similar, um, their negotiating skills or how they navigate, you know, crucial discussions and how dissimilar sometimes they approach, uh, men and women approach situations.
It could be anything that you're negotiating, right? If it's more scale and scope and responsibility in, uh, the role that you have or a future role, the title that you, that you want for a future role, and of course, compensation. Um, and just learning, you know, to really differentiate yourself to have that support when you bring, you know, the talks to the table, if you will.
Why are you asking for more compensation? And how, how do you navigate that? Or why are you asking for a different title? Uh, so I think really that art of negotiating has been so helpful for me in my career. I tend, um, not to ask for more. And I don't, you know, I'm still learning to ask for more in level of what in my experience and my skills and what I bring to the table.
[00:31:50] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That's a such a great resource, too. And I love that you touched on this, but it's evolving, like you're pulling in different pieces. You're learning from those around you, from your experiences. And as you advance in your career, it becomes more tailored to each of those experiences and each of those like specific use cases, if you call them.
[00:32:11] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Exactly.
[00:32:13] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That's so awesome. And so, uh, Meghan, what is your resource?
[00:32:18] Meghan Anzelc: For me, mine really, I think, dovetails very nicely with Christina's, even though we didn't talk about this ahead of time. Uh, mine is really informational interviews. So, similarly, talking to other people about their jobs, what they like and don't like. What, you know, what was their career path and how did they get there?
Um, informational interviews have been incredibly influential throughout my entire career. I, I did many, many of them when I was in graduate school, um, looking to explore careers and understand different job opportunities, um, before graduating. And I'll provide you with the link to the informational interview questions that I used as a graduate student.
Um, and I still use many of those same questions today. And what I've I still conduct informational interviews today to say, who else could I learn from? Where do I want to go next in my career? Who has a similar path and has kind of achieved what I'm looking to achieve and what can I learn from them about how to best navigate my own career path to get to those, um, career aspirations.
So they've been an incredibly valuable tool to me. And I always ask two questions at the end. Um, one is, who else should I talk to, which then is a natural way to start building and expanding your network and makes it very easy for you to meet totally different people than you would have been exposed to otherwise.
And then the second question is, what else should I have asked you? And I sometimes get very, um, insightful answers. That touch on topics that I never would have thought to ask about. So that very kind of open ended question to let people tell you what you should know, um, can be really impactful and, and sort of open up perspectives that you might not have.
So, so informational interviews is something I found to continue to be valuable throughout my career.
[00:34:22] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That's so interesting. And it kind of sounds like these are almost micro mentorship sessions in a way, uh, which I think can be as beneficial as a long term mentorship, such as the one you guys have.
[00:34:36] Meghan Anzelc: Yeah. And it gives you the ability to learn from a really wide range of people, right? And you can learn a lot in, you know, what is effectively like a 20 minute conversation.
[00:34:45] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: That's awesome. That's such a great resource. Honestly, both of yours were good. Those are great things that I hope our listeners can add to their toolkits and use them to make some impact and advance in their own careers. Um, so just before we finish up, I wanted to ask, how can our listeners keep up with each of you?
[00:35:05] Meghan Anzelc: I'm very easy to find on LinkedIn. Um, so you're welcome to follow or, or connect with me. If you want to connect, just customize the invite and let me know, this is how you came across me. I try to keep track of, of how I'm building out my own network. Um, so LinkedIn is very easy. And then our company website is the other way to kind of keep track of what we're doing and where we're headed.
So that's Three Arc Advisory. com three with the number three.
[00:35:31] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Same here. Connect with me on LinkedIn and our Three Arc company website.
[00:35:37] Lauren Burke-McCarthy: Awesome. Well, thank you both so much, Christina and Meghan, for joining us. It was so amazing to hear about your journey, how you've supported each other, how both of your careers have advanced through the connection and collaboration you've been able to have over the years. And I really appreciate you taking the time with us today.
[00:35:58] Christina Fernandes-D'Souza: Thank you so much for having us.
[00:36:00] Meghan Anzelc: Thanks Lauren.