WEBVTT

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You're listening to There Ought To Be A Law,

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the Center for Auto Safety podcast with Executive

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Director Michael Brooks, Chief Engineer Fred

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Perkins, and hosted by me, Anthony Cimino. For

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over 50 years, the Center for Auto Safety has

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worked to make cars safer. Hey, everybody, welcome

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to Fred Sings. Fred Kroons for us. Today is Wednesday,

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August 5th. Thanks for coming back to the show.

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And this week, we're going to start off with

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everyone's favorite, autonomous vehicles. That's

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right. So, last week, that little agency that

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could, NHTSA, put out some new rules and, I guess,

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they're not even rules. They're not rules. They're

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not rules. They're putting out press releases

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saying, Saying we're doing this and none of it's

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really been done. And even if it gets done, it's

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just going to be guidance that does zero for

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safety. It's, you know, essentially what they're

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doing is mowing down all their authorities or

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changing them to allow autonomous vehicles on

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the road without setting up any type of safety

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system to make sure that they're operating safely.

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Basically, on July 30th, I think they granted

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Zooks an exemption and allow them to start charging

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for passengers. And so Zook puts out a press

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release around this. And then NHTSA essentially

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puts out the same press release talking about

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how they're coordinating. I mean, that's the

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crazy thing that they're coordinating behind

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the scenes. You know, I've been heard from people

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who are. at the announcement who literally saw

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that, could tell that the Zoox people were basically

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there as a celebration, right? So if you ever

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had any question as to whether, you know, Secretary

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Duffy is coordinating behind the scenes with

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major autonomous vehicle companies, I don't think

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there's any question about it. No. Well, I was

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glad to see in that announcement that they're

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requiring Zoox to affirmatively inform everybody

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who is a customer that... They are not compliant

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with all the federal motor vehicle safety standards

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and that everybody will need to understand that

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before they're allowed to click on the terms

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of service to accept them. That will force them

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to give up their rights to sue, even though the

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vehicles are not compliant with the federal motor

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vehicle safety standards. I think that's a big

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step in the right direction that they're forcing

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people to acknowledge the risks. associated with

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using these commercial services. Don't you agree?

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I think you're the only person that reads terms

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of services, clearly. In that case, everyone

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else just clicks agree, get me to the nearest

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Wendy's. Now, was that facetious, Fred? It was

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meant to be, but you guys' response tells me

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that I'm really reaching for it. I thought maybe

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you read something a little more carefully than

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me, but yeah, no, they are not doing that, right?

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So you mean the people are, without any knowledge,

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getting into a commercial vehicle that is not

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compliant with any safety standards at all? It's

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compliant with some, but not the good ones. Yes,

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they're doing that. You know, I would say that

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that's not too different from the state of play

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now when you're getting into a taxi cab, but

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you know then that, you know, it's... It's at

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least met federal motor vehicle safety standards

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when it was purchased. Whether it continues to

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meet them over time is one thing. But the fact

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is, in AVs, I mean, maybe the vehicle has been

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exempted from safety standards that apply to

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human driven cars. But there are no safety standards

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that regulate the performance of autonomous vehicles

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and their safety performance. So that should

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be the biggest red flag to me. There's also an

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extensive body of law that regulates. Uh, taxi

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performance when you've got a human driver, right?

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I mean, there's a lot of things they can do.

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Yeah. There is, there's some, I mean, it, it

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doesn't really reach, you know, it reaches taxis

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in some places. It might reach, um, some States,

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it might reach the ride share industry, but it's,

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you know, like a lot of things this year, it's

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certainly very patchwork, um, system. Um, you

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know, I'm not gonna. There was one part of this

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announcement that I think we have to discuss

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for a number of reasons, just because it's odd.

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It says that NIST is going to accelerate development

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of the first AV performance standard. So this

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is them saying, yes, at some point, we're going

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to get around to actually putting rules here

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with a partnership with SAE Industry Technologies

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Consortia, ITC. First of all, the partnership,

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they're only spending $5 million over three years

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to do this. would just flat out say that's not

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enough money and not enough of an investment

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to get this done, right? That's peanuts. And

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beyond that, it's a partnership with SAE Industrial

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or Industry Technologies Consortium, which is

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essentially the industry, right? That was exactly

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the industry. I want to point out that it's not

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SAE. It's a separate. nonprofit, well, it's a

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separate not -for -profit organization, but it's

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organizationally completely separate from SAE.

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So it's basically a made -up organization completely

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funded by the AV industry. Yeah, and that's why

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I'm wondering about that $5 million, because

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it seems like a lot of the funding for this is

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coming directly from industry, not from that

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$5 million. that NHTSA is plopping in because

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it requires so much cooperation from the industry.

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I don't think that this partnership is where

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the regulations for safety of the industry should

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be coming from, given that it's a partnership

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directly with industry and not even SAE more

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broadly. But this specific consortium of industry,

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it gives me a lot of, yeah, I have a lot of concerns

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about that. On top of the fact that NETS is just

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pursuing guidance at this point, which they've

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been doing now for over a decade. Yeah, so it

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is the AVSC that is this SAE ITC thing. So AVSC

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does not allow any inputs from any red team or...

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consumer advocacy or legislative inputs. It's

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strictly limited to invited industry participants.

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And by the way, the largest industry participants

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in the AV industry, which are Tesla and the Chinese

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companies, are not included in this. So as they

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move forward... Tesla may be by choice, right?

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Tesla probably by choice. They're excluded, right?

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Yeah, but the point is they're not there. And

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so as these regulations move forward, they're

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not including the biggest players in the AV industry,

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and they're not including any pushback from consumer

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organizations. So we're going to jump into that

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specifically in a minute, but let's jump back

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to this Zoox NHTSA. Press release. So for remind

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listeners, Zoox is a toaster looking object that's

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been operating in Las Vegas and I think L .A.

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a little bit or San Francisco. Maybe down in

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Seattle. Yeah, I think there's a few spots. So

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this is a vehicle where there are seats that

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the passengers face each other. They there is

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no steering wheel. There's no pedals. There's

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no big red stop button. As far as we know that

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allow passengers like this is operating improperly.

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And so part of this is then this is my gas light

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is and I'm not sure who it's at. Actually, is

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it is it NHTSA? Is it Zoox? So NHTSA is saying,

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hey, we've granted Zoox an application to forego

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all of these federal motor vehicle safety standards

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because this is an autonomous vehicle. And so

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certain ones, I understand they make sense. I

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don't have a driver. So they don't have a windshield

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defroster. OK, I get it. You don't have a human

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driver, but. They allow them to pass. Still,

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how do passengers see out of the vehicle? Sure.

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They can get out safely, right? Excellent point.

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I didn't think of that. But so, Michael, I have

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very specific questions for you. Ready? Ready

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for the quiz? OK, what is FMVSS number 201? FMVSS

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number 201. Does that apply to autonomous vehicles?

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It doesn't. Sure. I don't see why it wouldn't.

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It is. It is. You know, it's the 200 series of.

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Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards is the

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Occupant Protection Series, which typically pose

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less of a problem for autonomous vehicle makers

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if they're using vehicles that have traditional

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configurations that are covered by the Federal

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Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. We saw with the

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Zoox, you know, they have these. Do they have

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side facing seats yet? I think they might. And

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they have kind of like a new. system of airbags

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i forget what it was i think it's one of those

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airbags that kind of pops out and surrounds your

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body in some way that's you know not been used

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traditionally i don't know you know if there

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are any safety standards that can you know cover

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that situation so that's that's that's that's

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kind of like an issue that I don't think anyone

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knows what's going to happen here, you know,

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until a Zoox gets in a crash and we see all those

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things perform. And I'm assuming they've done

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a little, I think they had done a little crash

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testing. Sure. They've done a lot of simulation

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on those features, but when you're talking about

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novel seating configurations and. protecting

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people who are not facing forward or, you know,

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in the traditional ways in which the regulations

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cover, you know, I think that's going to be an

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issue. I'm not sure, you know, I'm not sure that

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they can totally. certified to the current occupant

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protection standards, given some of the seating

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configurations here. Now, this doesn't apply

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to folks like Waymo, who are using traditional

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vehicles and configurations and can certify their

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seating systems to the FMDSS. But I don't know.

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I don't know. If I was starting an autonomous

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vehicle company today, I would not be creating

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other headaches for myself. trying to be cool

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and provide different seating systems and all

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this other stuff where you're not really sure

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how these vehicles are going to perform, especially

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in, you know, higher speed collisions. Yeah.

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So what I took away from their exemption was

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they're exempt from 201 and 208. And these are

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both. protections in interior impact, and occupant

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crash protections. Now, I don't know. I want

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to be a vehicle that has occupant crash protection.

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And part of this, and I'm going to quote from

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NHTSA's, NHTSA's analysis of whether Zoox vehicles

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provide an overall safety level at least equal

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to the overall safety level of a vehicle that

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complies with all applicable FMVSS compares Zoox

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vehicles to a vehicle that would be identical

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except for compliance with the standards for

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Zoox sought exemption. So my read of that is

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saying this vehicle is as safe as another vehicle

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that doesn't comply with these things. Is that

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what I'm taking away? No, it's backward. I mean,

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essentially what you have to prove to get a temporary

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exemption is that even though you don't meet

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the federal motor vehicle safety standard, your

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vehicle is just as safe as vehicles that do,

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right? How do you prove that? Exactly. And that's

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been the number one problem. I think for NHTSA

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in their attempt to kind of loosen some of the

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exemption standards, that's the number one question.

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It goes back to something we talk about a lot

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here, which is, you know, how do you define safe?

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How do you, you know, how do you dig at whether

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something is as safe as another thing, especially

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when you don't have range of data showing the

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crash performance of those vehicles in the real

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world? Can you? I mean, can NHTSA even make a

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judgment here that's valid when you're essentially

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comparing everything that we have and the data

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that we have on other vehicles to this new vehicle

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that really hasn't shown us any type of real

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world safety performance? So part of this exemption

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is NHTSA is also writing a business case for

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Zoox. They're saying we had to grant these exemptions

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because they wouldn't be able to commercially

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deploy these. They wouldn't be able to. That's

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the nonsense here. That's the heart of my gaslight

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of doing this, that my gaslight is NHTSA is saying

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that, hey, we had to do all this for safety,

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but it's really a business case thing. And we're

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going to let them get rid of things like occupant

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crash protection because, you know, Amazon guy's

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got to turn a buck. He's poor. This all plays

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into the entire gaslight that we've been hearing

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for years now from the industry. Right. Is that

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regulation? and the current regulatory landscape,

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which is incredibly minimal, right? I mean, you've

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got California pushing some fairly sensible tracking

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of AVs, but then you have a lot of other states

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who are virtually doing nothing to ensure AV

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safety and doing everything they can to ensure

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AV deployment. Essentially, the AV industry wants

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that to be the standard across the United States.

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That's why they've continued. to push for preemption

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and every piece of legislation they've supported

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around AVs. They do not want states telling them

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what to do. And they keep claiming that this

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is stifling innovation. But frankly, I haven't

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seen that, right? I mean. Autonomous vehicles

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have been, you know, especially the ones that

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already comply with federal motor vehicle safety

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standards like Waymo have been, you know, engaged

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and slowly rolling out and testing their product

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for many years now. I mean, I don't see this

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as stifling them. I see it as the slow move of

00:14:25.789 --> 00:14:29.740
technology, whether it's AI enabled or not. integrating

00:14:29.740 --> 00:14:33.740
it safely into society by making sure that it

00:14:33.740 --> 00:14:35.559
works before we do so. I mean, essentially, the

00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:37.000
Department of Transportation here is saying,

00:14:37.179 --> 00:14:41.659
we just want to eliminate this patchwork regulatory

00:14:41.659 --> 00:14:45.200
landscape that's, quote, stifling innovation

00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:50.120
without any evidence that it is. And it just

00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:54.879
seems like the DOT is trying to provide AV companies

00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:58.480
with or support the idea that this technology

00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.379
can move at the speed that investors want it

00:15:01.379 --> 00:15:03.919
to versus at the speed of safety, which is going

00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:06.759
to be a much slower and iterative process that

00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:08.960
I ultimately think is going to have to happen

00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:11.620
here. I mean, we're seeing more and more issues

00:15:11.620 --> 00:15:15.980
piling up now as more AVs hit the road. And they're

00:15:15.980 --> 00:15:18.220
not even remotely at the scale they're talking

00:15:18.220 --> 00:15:20.679
about. When they get to those scales, the issues

00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:25.409
are going to be... flying fast and frequent.

00:15:25.730 --> 00:15:28.210
And, you know, at that point, you know, I'm concerned

00:15:28.210 --> 00:15:30.110
that we may have let, you know, the genie out

00:15:30.110 --> 00:15:32.429
of the bottle and there's no going back. Kind

00:15:32.429 --> 00:15:34.429
of like what we've done, you know, with level

00:15:34.429 --> 00:15:37.710
two systems and Tesla, where it's pretty clear

00:15:37.710 --> 00:15:39.730
they're not safe enough for humans to be operating

00:15:39.730 --> 00:15:44.370
on full self -driving overall. There are some

00:15:44.370 --> 00:15:46.149
significant problems that have been raised there.

00:15:46.250 --> 00:15:47.950
They haven't been addressed, whether it's the

00:15:47.950 --> 00:15:49.870
driver monitoring issues, whether it's, you know,

00:15:49.870 --> 00:15:52.450
the cameras not being able to pick up the environment.

00:15:53.309 --> 00:15:55.509
NHTSA didn't crack down on Tesla. They didn't

00:15:55.509 --> 00:15:58.330
put down regulations that could permit this problem

00:15:58.330 --> 00:16:00.269
in the future. And now the entire industry is

00:16:00.269 --> 00:16:05.490
adopting that approach. And that's... So essentially

00:16:05.490 --> 00:16:07.990
what could happen here, you're basically seeing

00:16:07.990 --> 00:16:10.570
regulations be held up for years and years and

00:16:10.570 --> 00:16:12.889
years while the industry continues to push guidance,

00:16:13.090 --> 00:16:15.549
which NHTSA is also pushing here. We have no

00:16:15.549 --> 00:16:17.889
guarantees that this partnership with the SAE

00:16:17.889 --> 00:16:20.230
is going to generate anything, if at all. And

00:16:20.230 --> 00:16:21.970
if it does, it's probably going to be industry

00:16:21.970 --> 00:16:25.570
favorable product. So this is all just a mess.

00:16:25.730 --> 00:16:27.789
I mean, this is just essentially what it is,

00:16:27.809 --> 00:16:30.629
is the Trump administration aligning with aligning

00:16:30.629 --> 00:16:32.970
with industry and investors and saying, we're

00:16:32.970 --> 00:16:34.610
going to shove this down your throat, whether

00:16:34.610 --> 00:16:36.809
it's safe or not, whether you need it or not,

00:16:36.889 --> 00:16:41.029
and whether your city wants it or not. Could

00:16:41.029 --> 00:16:43.769
it be stifling innovative new ways to injure

00:16:43.769 --> 00:16:45.990
passengers? Could that be the innovation that

00:16:45.990 --> 00:16:48.610
they're worried about stifling? I don't understand

00:16:48.610 --> 00:16:50.929
the innovation stifling. It's just this constant

00:16:50.929 --> 00:16:53.750
refrain from the industry with little evidence

00:16:53.750 --> 00:16:59.389
to back it up. Of course, not being able to deploy

00:16:59.389 --> 00:17:01.809
unsafe vehicles on the road and make a lot of

00:17:01.809 --> 00:17:05.390
money off of them is stifling your capital, right?

00:17:05.450 --> 00:17:07.910
It's stifling the money you're going to make.

00:17:08.049 --> 00:17:11.210
But to claim that it's stifling innovation when

00:17:11.210 --> 00:17:13.349
a big part of innovation is making sure it's

00:17:13.349 --> 00:17:17.319
safe. for humans and safe on the roads. I just

00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:19.700
I can't buy that argument at all. I mean, the

00:17:19.700 --> 00:17:21.500
only thing that's being stifled are the dreams

00:17:21.500 --> 00:17:23.619
of people who want to put unsafe vehicles on

00:17:23.619 --> 00:17:26.920
the road now versus taking the time to get them

00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:29.680
right. Fred, what is it called when corporations

00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:33.180
basically run the government? What would you

00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:40.299
call that? I would call that I'd call it Fred's

00:17:40.299 --> 00:17:43.859
muted his microphone. I'll perhaps play some

00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:49.079
Wagner to inspire him. No, I'm trying to recover.

00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.220
I think that's called fascism. There we go for

00:17:52.220 --> 00:17:55.559
the win. All right. Show's over. Yeah, but we

00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:58.359
do have an expression in New England for the

00:17:58.359 --> 00:18:03.920
situation Michael described. We like to call

00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:08.869
it bullshit. All right. That's that's that's

00:18:08.869 --> 00:18:10.410
you know, that's the alternate name for this

00:18:10.410 --> 00:18:13.390
podcast. That is good. OK, so that's my gas.

00:18:13.450 --> 00:18:15.410
We're not going to jump to your gas lights just

00:18:15.410 --> 00:18:17.509
yet because, Michael, you're on this this thread

00:18:17.509 --> 00:18:21.809
and we're going to get to this about. So about

00:18:21.809 --> 00:18:24.950
these bills going through Congress right now

00:18:24.950 --> 00:18:28.269
that are trying to get up the one in particular,

00:18:28.309 --> 00:18:31.019
the Self -Drive Act. And I'm going to quote from

00:18:31.019 --> 00:18:33.819
Politico right now. But industry has already

00:18:33.819 --> 00:18:36.900
coalesced around the Self -Drive Act, a separate

00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:40.619
proposal by Rep. Bob Latta from Ohio that would

00:18:40.619 --> 00:18:43.740
mandate that AV automakers prove to NHTSA that

00:18:43.740 --> 00:18:45.759
their vehicles follow traffic laws and disclose

00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:48.380
their vehicle safety limitations. The bill initially

00:18:48.380 --> 00:18:51.240
guarded bipartisan support, but later lost the

00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:54.480
backing of Representative Dingell and ultimately

00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:56.740
advanced by a slim margin at subcommittee. So,

00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:01.029
Michael. Now, this what's wrong with if this

00:19:01.029 --> 00:19:03.009
is going to mandate that AV automakers have to

00:19:03.009 --> 00:19:05.269
prove to NHTSA that their vehicles follow safety,

00:19:05.349 --> 00:19:07.289
because further down this article, there's a

00:19:07.289 --> 00:19:09.430
man reading. Yeah, that's a bad reading of the

00:19:09.430 --> 00:19:12.329
law. The self -drive act does not mandate anything

00:19:12.329 --> 00:19:16.730
like that. Essentially, it says if you develop

00:19:16.730 --> 00:19:22.059
a safety case based on, you know. the guidance

00:19:22.059 --> 00:19:24.680
that's being provided. If you develop it, then

00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:29.940
you can't be messed with essentially by state

00:19:29.940 --> 00:19:33.539
authorities, right? It literally trades preemption

00:19:33.539 --> 00:19:37.579
and basically companies can be irresponsible

00:19:37.579 --> 00:19:41.119
in their local deployments if they develop a

00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:43.720
safety case, which isn't, you know, at this point,

00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:47.529
isn't going to be. tied to any standard. It's

00:19:47.529 --> 00:19:50.529
not going to be tied to the UL or ISO or any

00:19:50.529 --> 00:19:52.490
other standard to make sure that their safety

00:19:52.490 --> 00:19:55.049
case is being developed and accurate. It's not

00:19:55.049 --> 00:19:56.910
going to be turned into the secretary so that

00:19:56.910 --> 00:19:59.779
NHTSA can check the safety case in any way. I

00:19:59.779 --> 00:20:02.279
mean, it was a terribly drafted way of going

00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:04.099
about it. It's clearly something the industry

00:20:04.099 --> 00:20:06.380
favors because then all they have to do is say,

00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:09.160
yeah, secretary, I've got a safety case. And

00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:12.259
now San Francisco can't do anything to me when

00:20:12.259 --> 00:20:14.539
I screw up and block their streets all night.

00:20:14.579 --> 00:20:18.339
Right. It's a terrible formulation. And all the

00:20:18.339 --> 00:20:20.680
preemption formulations that we've seen in AV

00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:23.119
legislation over the past decade have been bad.

00:20:24.339 --> 00:20:27.250
You know, I. And I'll say it again, I've probably

00:20:27.250 --> 00:20:28.910
said this a thousand times, I think the only

00:20:28.910 --> 00:20:33.349
way to get this done is a slow, iterative process

00:20:33.349 --> 00:20:35.990
where you're taking into account all the problems

00:20:35.990 --> 00:20:38.630
at the local level, all the problems at the state

00:20:38.630 --> 00:20:42.490
level, and working with those folks to make sure

00:20:42.490 --> 00:20:44.990
that you're operating safely on the street, right?

00:20:45.769 --> 00:20:48.930
It's not a matter of running to the federal government

00:20:48.930 --> 00:20:51.690
and running to politicians and crying that we're

00:20:51.690 --> 00:20:54.630
not able to make enough money yet when your product's

00:20:54.630 --> 00:21:02.869
not mature, right? It's not ready. And this focus

00:21:02.869 --> 00:21:06.750
on eliminating the safety part of things and

00:21:06.750 --> 00:21:09.910
eliminating the regulations that make you do

00:21:09.910 --> 00:21:12.769
the proof and make you work on the ground with.

00:21:13.309 --> 00:21:17.910
cities and states and people that they're trying

00:21:17.910 --> 00:21:21.569
to brush aside. So it's I don't know, it's it's

00:21:21.569 --> 00:21:23.890
it's just a bad formulation. It's not the way

00:21:23.890 --> 00:21:27.539
that I think. The federal law should work when

00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:29.900
new technologies are involved. I think it's dangerous

00:21:29.900 --> 00:21:33.460
and it's a bad approach and it's the least safe

00:21:33.460 --> 00:21:35.420
approach. You know, I think getting everyone

00:21:35.420 --> 00:21:38.119
involved and not just running to the federal

00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:39.799
government and trying to eliminate a patchwork

00:21:39.799 --> 00:21:42.759
of regulations that are probably doing a lot

00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:46.000
for safety on the ground is the way to go. So

00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.099
traditionally with auto laws and auto safety

00:21:48.099 --> 00:21:51.180
laws, each state has its own little subset and

00:21:51.180 --> 00:21:53.480
things they can do and make it for their local.

00:21:53.950 --> 00:21:56.309
environments well essentially road safety issues

00:21:56.309 --> 00:21:59.869
and yeah like in the in the past so nits is since

00:21:59.869 --> 00:22:03.609
this you know late 60s has had the essentially

00:22:03.609 --> 00:22:07.569
the authority on vehicle performance and vehicles

00:22:07.569 --> 00:22:10.150
direct vehicle safety issues that are involving

00:22:10.150 --> 00:22:13.990
the technology that's being deployed they you

00:22:13.990 --> 00:22:18.710
know states can't pass laws that um you know

00:22:18.710 --> 00:22:22.359
make a manufacturer you know, change its airbag

00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:26.160
system or change, you know, any part of the car

00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:28.000
that might be regulated by the government, including

00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.099
brake hoses and other things where there's federal

00:22:30.099 --> 00:22:33.819
motor vehicle safety standards. But states can

00:22:33.819 --> 00:22:36.940
regulate where they've traditionally regulated,

00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.480
which is in the area of driver competency, driver

00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:44.019
testing, driver licensing. Like that is something

00:22:44.019 --> 00:22:48.549
that has. been combined in an autonomous vehicle,

00:22:48.750 --> 00:22:50.990
right? You've got the old school performance

00:22:50.990 --> 00:22:54.950
and parts of a vehicle versus the new school,

00:22:54.950 --> 00:23:00.049
like computer driver now that kind of sits on

00:23:00.049 --> 00:23:02.609
the line of performance, right? It sits on the

00:23:02.609 --> 00:23:05.170
line of safety performance and something that

00:23:05.170 --> 00:23:07.890
the states have traditionally regulated. So it's

00:23:07.890 --> 00:23:10.490
a shared, essentially a shared jurisdiction.

00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:14.299
of states and cities and the federal government

00:23:14.299 --> 00:23:18.559
there over the competency of the autonomous driver.

00:23:18.740 --> 00:23:20.440
And what I think many of these companies want

00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:24.380
to do is close that side for states. They don't

00:23:24.380 --> 00:23:26.519
want states to be involved in evaluating the

00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:29.079
competency of computer drivers, even while they're

00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:31.720
evaluating the competency of human drivers. So

00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:36.039
a lot of this is essentially trying to change

00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:41.170
the law. in favor of AV companies. And, you know,

00:23:41.190 --> 00:23:44.890
our take is obviously that you need to take everyone's

00:23:44.890 --> 00:23:47.849
input and including the local authorities where

00:23:47.849 --> 00:23:50.190
you're operating the vehicles. Great. I think

00:23:50.190 --> 00:23:52.109
that that's really helpful for people to understand

00:23:52.109 --> 00:23:56.190
that disconnect. So I've done my gaslight. Fred,

00:23:56.369 --> 00:24:00.150
are you ready for your gaslight? I am. Great.

00:24:00.529 --> 00:24:02.549
You know, we've given you all this time for vocal

00:24:02.549 --> 00:24:08.750
exercises, time to rest. Okay, so I'm going to

00:24:08.750 --> 00:24:13.769
infuriate all of my colleagues in the SAE, and

00:24:13.769 --> 00:24:17.650
I am a member of the SAE itself, by nominating

00:24:17.650 --> 00:24:21.910
the Automated Transportation Symposium, which

00:24:21.910 --> 00:24:27.710
is a conference, kind of the high conclave of

00:24:27.710 --> 00:24:31.029
the autonomous vehicle industry in the United

00:24:31.029 --> 00:24:35.960
States. That meeting was held. Last week, week

00:24:35.960 --> 00:24:39.339
before, something like that. And the title of

00:24:39.339 --> 00:24:41.680
it is Building Trust for Infrastructure -Supported

00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:46.119
Driving Automation. Excuse me, that's not, that's

00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:49.099
one of the sessions. Building Trust. There's

00:24:49.099 --> 00:24:51.680
another one, Forensic Crash Lab, Deconstructing

00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:54.720
the Swiss Cheese Failure, Next Level for Emergency

00:24:54.720 --> 00:25:01.099
Responders. Several peripheral activities associated

00:25:01.099 --> 00:25:07.109
with safety. The point is, what's missing in

00:25:07.109 --> 00:25:09.049
this conference? Okay, three days conference,

00:25:09.349 --> 00:25:12.369
four day conference. What was missing from this?

00:25:14.349 --> 00:25:16.369
They've got enough operational experience to

00:25:16.369 --> 00:25:18.789
know where the problems are, at least some of

00:25:18.789 --> 00:25:22.250
the problems. And they're putting their head

00:25:22.250 --> 00:25:26.670
in the sand and not including that in the program

00:25:26.670 --> 00:25:30.670
at all. So what's missing? Ethics of requiring

00:25:30.670 --> 00:25:33.829
waiver of customer legal protections. when they're

00:25:33.829 --> 00:25:36.390
using commercial vehicles that are not compliant

00:25:36.390 --> 00:25:40.150
with FMVSS. They're not addressing ethics of

00:25:40.150 --> 00:25:44.670
commercial AV operations without validating the

00:25:44.670 --> 00:25:47.630
safety in all possible circumstances. There's

00:25:47.630 --> 00:25:50.410
no discussion of Waymo bike crashes running into

00:25:50.410 --> 00:25:53.250
a child or the T -Bone accident that recently

00:25:53.250 --> 00:25:56.289
occurred in LA. There's no discussion of the

00:25:56.289 --> 00:25:59.410
numerous Tesla lethalities. There's no recognition

00:25:59.410 --> 00:26:02.359
of the fragility of the business case. and the

00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:05.099
need for import protection for the AV industry

00:26:05.099 --> 00:26:10.440
from the Chinese. There's no deconstruction of

00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:14.859
any AV crash that involves AI to show root cause

00:26:14.859 --> 00:26:16.759
determination, because basically you cannot.

00:26:16.940 --> 00:26:22.279
AI is opaque to root cause determination. There's

00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:24.980
no showing that the AV industry understands the

00:26:24.980 --> 00:26:28.059
lessons from historical crashes and how industry

00:26:28.059 --> 00:26:31.720
validates. that it will not be replicated in

00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:34.940
commercial AVs. So it's just blank. You know,

00:26:35.019 --> 00:26:37.500
it happened. We don't care. We don't have to.

00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:41.099
We're the AV industry. Safety is the AV industry's

00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:43.819
first priority. Why is there so little emphasis

00:26:43.819 --> 00:26:46.839
on metrics that show the current state of safety,

00:26:46.980 --> 00:26:50.480
the trajectory of steadily increasing safety

00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:54.420
for the rapidly maturing AV industry, is what

00:26:54.420 --> 00:26:57.549
they would say. And what is the goal? I mean,

00:26:57.569 --> 00:26:59.829
aircraft can and do show that. Why not surface

00:26:59.829 --> 00:27:03.250
vehicles? Why are they immune from the same kind

00:27:03.250 --> 00:27:08.710
of transparency and requirements that we see

00:27:08.710 --> 00:27:11.670
in commercial aviation, which is fabulously successful

00:27:11.670 --> 00:27:15.109
from a safety perspective versus a really questionable

00:27:15.109 --> 00:27:20.230
safety of the of the industry? So that's it.

00:27:20.390 --> 00:27:24.150
I'm condemning the entire SAE and the ATS conference,

00:27:24.390 --> 00:27:27.829
which is going to make me very popular. I'll

00:27:27.829 --> 00:27:29.349
just bring up one more thing in relation to that.

00:27:29.369 --> 00:27:33.170
I mean, you just need to look at some of the

00:27:33.170 --> 00:27:36.210
promotional materials for the event and you see

00:27:36.210 --> 00:27:38.970
who the sponsors are, right? It's Waymo, it's

00:27:38.970 --> 00:27:42.230
Uber, it's Wabi, it's Torque Robotics, it's Qualcomm,

00:27:42.430 --> 00:27:47.210
right? It's Zoox. So what do you expect? Right,

00:27:47.230 --> 00:27:49.450
right. So it's an industry celebrating itself

00:27:49.450 --> 00:27:56.460
and self -referential. Anyway, that's my nomination

00:27:56.460 --> 00:27:58.880
for this week. That's good. I mean, you're going

00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:02.039
after your own tribe. I really, I mean, I condemn

00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:04.619
you for that. No, I commend you for that. It's

00:28:04.619 --> 00:28:07.019
a slight dyslexia on my part there. The condemnation

00:28:07.019 --> 00:28:10.420
comes later. Okay, great. Hey, and if you want

00:28:10.420 --> 00:28:13.079
to celebrate industry, go to autosavvy .org and

00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:15.140
click on Donate. What's the industry you're celebrating?

00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:18.960
Fred's Condemnation. It's going to be an industry

00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:21.799
-wide event. It's going to be sponsored by me.

00:28:23.040 --> 00:28:26.859
I don't know what I'm saying. I'm hoping Michael

00:28:26.859 --> 00:28:28.799
will jump in and just cut me off. I'm going to

00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:30.519
jump in with my gas light here just to cut you

00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:32.799
off. And I'm going to lead us into our next topic.

00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:36.849
Yay! One of the stupidest ideas I've heard, although

00:28:36.849 --> 00:28:38.890
I understand where it's coming from, freedom

00:28:38.890 --> 00:28:43.769
cards. So Duffy proposed this this this week,

00:28:43.890 --> 00:28:46.809
and it's one of the most nonsensical things I've

00:28:46.809 --> 00:28:49.450
ever heard. It's clearly once again, Secretary

00:28:49.450 --> 00:28:52.309
Duffy, you know, as we talked about in the last

00:28:52.309 --> 00:28:54.589
month or so when it comes to some other issues,

00:28:54.769 --> 00:28:59.269
catering to essentially a lot of political head

00:28:59.269 --> 00:29:02.509
cases out there by proposing, you know. Absolutely

00:29:02.509 --> 00:29:05.430
unsafe and unworkable safety car belts. You know,

00:29:05.430 --> 00:29:09.609
in this situation, they're going after the fact

00:29:09.609 --> 00:29:13.390
that some vehicles are connected and can transmit

00:29:13.390 --> 00:29:15.650
your data to places you don't want them done.

00:29:15.809 --> 00:29:20.740
And essentially, you know. Here's how they describe

00:29:20.740 --> 00:29:23.980
it. Right. The right to just right to drive a

00:29:23.980 --> 00:29:26.160
disconnected and non -automated vehicles. Right.

00:29:26.180 --> 00:29:29.279
And so this would prohibit any federal. That's

00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:31.720
the key part here. State, tribal or local authority

00:29:31.720 --> 00:29:34.420
for mandating that vehicle sold or operating

00:29:34.420 --> 00:29:36.500
on public roads be equipped with automated driving

00:29:36.500 --> 00:29:40.319
systems or be capable of transmitting data wirelessly.

00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:43.259
Right. So what this would allow for is a federal

00:29:43.259 --> 00:29:46.619
law that splits our safety regulation down the

00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:51.200
middle. and says you can't have, for instance,

00:29:51.420 --> 00:29:53.599
you can't have vehicle -to -vehicle technology

00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:57.299
if you don't have communication systems. You're

00:29:57.299 --> 00:30:00.819
essentially saying we're going to build an entire

00:30:00.819 --> 00:30:03.180
fleet of vehicles that won't comply with this,

00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:09.539
which ruins the entire V2V safety plan, essentially.

00:30:09.940 --> 00:30:12.420
Not only that, but there are going to be a number

00:30:12.420 --> 00:30:16.039
of other... features that might safety features,

00:30:16.119 --> 00:30:18.799
even working within the system that might need

00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.359
connected features to operate. You know, I don't

00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:23.279
think it's going to affect like backup cameras,

00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:27.180
but, you know, you know. Automatic emergency

00:30:27.180 --> 00:30:29.799
braking over the air updates are going to be

00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:33.900
implicated here possibly. But a lot of the things

00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:36.799
that we're seeing in vehicles like, and a lot

00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:38.200
of the things we've talked about on the political

00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:41.460
spectrum, like impairment detection. You know,

00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:43.099
if you're going to have an appropriate impairment

00:30:43.099 --> 00:30:45.799
detection system that not only just prevents

00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:48.000
a drunk driver from starting the vehicle, but

00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:52.000
actually reports them or, you know, gets actually

00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:53.900
doing the work to get the drunk driver off the

00:30:53.900 --> 00:30:57.390
road is one thing. A lot of different vehicle

00:30:57.390 --> 00:31:01.069
systems are going to come with, I think, some

00:31:01.069 --> 00:31:03.069
type of requirement that the vehicle is connected

00:31:03.069 --> 00:31:05.529
in the future. Right now, automatic emergency

00:31:05.529 --> 00:31:08.210
braking does not require that. And ultimately,

00:31:08.289 --> 00:31:13.950
the problem here is not the fact that these safety

00:31:13.950 --> 00:31:16.069
systems need to connect to the Internet and that

00:31:16.069 --> 00:31:19.569
poses a problem. It's the fact that whoever is

00:31:19.569 --> 00:31:24.319
collecting this data is not. protecting it or

00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:27.500
selling it on, right? If we had a federal ban

00:31:27.500 --> 00:31:32.200
on taking, you know, any type of data that can

00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:35.740
be personalized to a human and to track them

00:31:35.740 --> 00:31:38.180
or to evaluate their behavior driving or anything

00:31:38.180 --> 00:31:42.900
like that, if a vehicle safety system needs that

00:31:42.900 --> 00:31:45.180
information to make a safety determination at

00:31:45.180 --> 00:31:46.539
the moment as to whether the driver's drunk,

00:31:46.599 --> 00:31:52.720
distracted, speeding, whatever, then that data,

00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:56.279
should not be part of what an automaker collects

00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:59.680
and sells on. Essentially, there needs to be

00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:03.799
a federal ban on selling that information or

00:32:03.799 --> 00:32:06.740
passing that information on without the explicit

00:32:06.740 --> 00:32:10.920
consent of whoever owns the vehicle and is operating

00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:14.859
the vehicle. And that alleviates all of these

00:32:14.859 --> 00:32:20.759
crazy surveillance claims. It prevents all of

00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.140
the nonsense that's happened here that's getting

00:32:23.140 --> 00:32:25.299
in the way of safety features being put into

00:32:25.299 --> 00:32:29.579
vehicles. Because then you can. get a car that's

00:32:29.579 --> 00:32:32.440
got v2v it's got automatic emergency braking

00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:36.880
it's got advanced driver systems that need to

00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:39.319
use connected features to make the vehicle more

00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:42.299
safe but you have to ensure that that information

00:32:42.299 --> 00:32:46.119
is not going to anyone else and the reason that's

00:32:46.119 --> 00:32:48.019
not happening even though the solution seems

00:32:48.019 --> 00:32:50.619
simple is because the automakers are completely

00:32:50.619 --> 00:32:52.299
opposed to it because they want to make money

00:32:52.299 --> 00:32:56.059
off your data you know that's it um and that's

00:32:56.059 --> 00:32:58.740
what this is all about it's about It's about

00:32:58.740 --> 00:33:02.059
essentially NHTSA and Duffy saying, we're not

00:33:02.059 --> 00:33:05.740
going to do the hard thing here, which is tell

00:33:05.740 --> 00:33:08.160
manufacturers they can't collect certain data

00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:11.640
and pass it on. There essentially needs to be

00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:15.119
a, I don't know what it would call, a Faraday

00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:19.210
cage around. Personal information, driver's faces,

00:33:19.690 --> 00:33:21.750
you know, what I'm doing in the car when nobody

00:33:21.750 --> 00:33:23.750
else should be around and watching me, all the

00:33:23.750 --> 00:33:26.410
things that the privacy advocates and some of

00:33:26.410 --> 00:33:28.789
the other folks, the preppers are concerned with.

00:33:30.049 --> 00:33:33.210
So this is just a bad way to go. I'm going to

00:33:33.210 --> 00:33:35.309
stop now. I think I went longer than I've ever

00:33:35.309 --> 00:33:38.210
gone on a gas light for that one. But Secretary

00:33:38.210 --> 00:33:41.950
Duffy. Again, you're my Gaslight of the Week,

00:33:41.950 --> 00:33:44.250
and I don't see that changing. I think Secretary

00:33:44.250 --> 00:33:49.630
Duffy may beat Elon this year. Oh, so the first

00:33:49.630 --> 00:33:52.650
piece we talked about basically was saying, NHTSA

00:33:52.650 --> 00:33:55.190
saying, hey, we're going to let AVs come out

00:33:55.190 --> 00:33:57.859
because we don't want to stifle innovation. But

00:33:57.859 --> 00:34:00.299
what we just heard from you is they're saying,

00:34:00.380 --> 00:34:03.539
we want to stifle innovation. We don't want connected

00:34:03.539 --> 00:34:06.200
cars. We don't want that. So it's just stifle

00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:08.480
innovation, but just don't stifle the innovation

00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:11.219
we don't like or can't profit from. It's the

00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:13.579
same nonsense that we keep hearing from the auto

00:34:13.579 --> 00:34:15.980
industry. Oh, we've got cars that can do everything

00:34:15.980 --> 00:34:18.219
for you and they're ready to go. And they're

00:34:18.219 --> 00:34:21.000
just being stifled by regulation when it comes

00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:24.170
to AVs. But when you look at things like. automatic

00:34:24.170 --> 00:34:26.929
emergency braking over here which the industry

00:34:26.929 --> 00:34:30.510
is still challenging the rule on um you know

00:34:30.510 --> 00:34:35.010
you've got to be able to stop cars when they

00:34:35.010 --> 00:34:37.530
see something 100 of the time if you are not

00:34:37.530 --> 00:34:41.610
100 but as close as possible right um if if you

00:34:41.610 --> 00:34:43.829
want those autonomous vehicles to function and

00:34:43.829 --> 00:34:45.829
yet when it comes to the consumer vehicle over

00:34:45.829 --> 00:34:49.110
here you're saying you can't do that so it's

00:34:49.110 --> 00:34:52.239
just complete in terms of tech. They're trying

00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:55.239
to pretend that AVs are somehow on this other

00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:58.820
level and don't need to be regulated for this.

00:34:58.940 --> 00:35:01.800
I don't know. It's just mind -boggling. I mean,

00:35:01.820 --> 00:35:03.619
this is a tough one to judge this week because,

00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:06.360
I mean, okay, Michael, you don't get a point

00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:08.619
for going after Duffy again because you've used

00:35:08.619 --> 00:35:11.099
him too many times, but... It's just too easy,

00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:13.400
the dumb shit they come up with. But the cognitive

00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:16.260
dissonance, on the other hand, I mean, that we're

00:35:16.260 --> 00:35:19.760
highlighting, that's point -worthy. At the same

00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:24.119
time, Fred's wearing a headband. So, but no,

00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:28.780
Fred's weekly, but Fred, but, but Fred, you know,

00:35:28.780 --> 00:35:32.059
he went to burn down his own house in SAE. So

00:35:32.059 --> 00:35:35.159
I, I mean, I've checked with the judges. We've

00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:37.719
verified and I have to give it to Fred this week

00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:40.820
is the winner. Yeah. I mean, it's about damn

00:35:40.820 --> 00:35:43.059
time. You say that each time you win, it's about

00:35:43.059 --> 00:35:45.039
damn time. I've never won before. You're never

00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:46.679
going to win again. Can you, you know, you're

00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:49.510
not focusing. i have a short memory great say

00:35:49.510 --> 00:35:51.130
for people who don't have a short memory go to

00:35:51.130 --> 00:35:53.289
autosafety .org click on donate you can do it

00:35:53.289 --> 00:35:54.949
while you sit in the piggly wiggly parking lot

00:35:54.949 --> 00:35:59.829
bam you can't do that um so continuing this thread

00:35:59.829 --> 00:36:03.190
of the freedom cars and i don't want uh all this

00:36:03.190 --> 00:36:05.889
technology these people remind me of uh people

00:36:05.889 --> 00:36:08.090
who go to like the airport and the tsa line and

00:36:08.090 --> 00:36:10.130
they're like you know there's that tsa camera

00:36:10.130 --> 00:36:12.250
that takes your photo and you can opt out it

00:36:12.250 --> 00:36:13.650
reminds me of those people like i'm gonna opt

00:36:13.650 --> 00:36:16.099
out They already have your driver's license.

00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:17.920
They have your passport. They already have all

00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:20.800
of your biometric data. You complain the TSA's

00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:22.980
security theater, what you're doing is theater.

00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:27.280
They already have this. Anyway, let's continue

00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:29.940
with the article from the Wall Street Journal

00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:33.059
talking about a bunch of Luddites. No, it's a

00:36:33.059 --> 00:36:35.159
bunch of people. It's titled, These Drivers Are

00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:37.639
Taking Extreme Measures to Avoid New Car Technology.

00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:41.440
And it's an article talking about how basically

00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:44.599
people who are upset with That's how I'm going

00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:47.260
to put it. These are people who will, I'm going

00:36:47.260 --> 00:36:50.559
to keep driving a really old car. And as we know,

00:36:50.579 --> 00:36:53.599
the older a car is, the less safe it is. I don't

00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:56.699
care because we know new technology helps save

00:36:56.699 --> 00:36:59.559
things. But these people don't want it. I mean,

00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:02.000
there's some interesting, legit complaints I

00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:03.179
get in here. I'm going to quote from the article,

00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:06.420
quoting from one of the people they interviewed.

00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:09.460
He says, if I get in my hot car and I want some

00:37:09.460 --> 00:37:11.079
air conditioning, I just want to turn a knob

00:37:11.079 --> 00:37:14.280
and have a whole. have cold air come out. There's

00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:16.079
this fatigue of having to learn one more new

00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:19.380
thing. We've talked about that. No, Michael,

00:37:19.619 --> 00:37:20.659
you're going to make me skip over it. We've talked

00:37:20.659 --> 00:37:23.119
about that with the capacitive buttons and people

00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:26.519
want knobs and dials back in their car. I'm on

00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:28.719
board with that, but that doesn't mean you should

00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:32.340
still be driving around in a 2006 Scion. If it

00:37:32.340 --> 00:37:34.780
was 2007, you should not be driving around in

00:37:34.780 --> 00:37:38.730
a 2006 Scion, okay? Do they still make those?

00:37:38.829 --> 00:37:41.090
I wonder if you should drive in a 2026. Yeah,

00:37:41.110 --> 00:37:42.889
I don't think you should drive it at all. But

00:37:42.889 --> 00:37:45.349
people are basically saying, so this is another

00:37:45.349 --> 00:37:48.469
woman. Look, I'm sympathetic to a lot of this,

00:37:48.510 --> 00:37:50.829
right? Cars cost a lot of money. Way too much

00:37:50.829 --> 00:37:52.949
money. Yeah, a lot of people can't afford them.

00:37:52.949 --> 00:37:55.789
Buying old cars is the way to go. You know, when

00:37:55.789 --> 00:37:58.190
you buy an old car, you're going to have a lot

00:37:58.190 --> 00:38:00.670
less chance of having recalls and other issues

00:38:00.670 --> 00:38:04.309
that are created by software, right? And maybe

00:38:04.309 --> 00:38:07.869
electronics. At the same time, you're not going

00:38:07.869 --> 00:38:10.090
to have a backup camera. You're not going to

00:38:10.090 --> 00:38:13.469
have AEB. Even if you do have some form of AEB,

00:38:13.510 --> 00:38:15.710
it's going to work at really low speeds and not

00:38:15.710 --> 00:38:17.130
be that effective. You're not going to have blind

00:38:17.130 --> 00:38:19.769
spot monitoring. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot

00:38:19.769 --> 00:38:22.590
of things you're not going to have. And I get

00:38:22.590 --> 00:38:24.789
not going after those things if you can't afford

00:38:24.789 --> 00:38:28.469
it, right? But if you're capable of buying a

00:38:28.469 --> 00:38:31.909
new car and you're avoiding it for... These reasons,

00:38:32.090 --> 00:38:34.309
I don't know. I mean, I could certainly be willing

00:38:34.309 --> 00:38:36.489
to avoid a vehicle that's got all the touchscreen

00:38:36.489 --> 00:38:38.309
issues that you're talking about though, right?

00:38:38.389 --> 00:38:40.730
Because I like buttons. Of course, much easier.

00:38:40.730 --> 00:38:43.190
I don't want to be scrolling through a menu to

00:38:43.190 --> 00:38:46.789
defrost my windshield when I need to see out

00:38:46.789 --> 00:38:50.650
of it. So I get it to an extent, but at the same

00:38:50.650 --> 00:38:53.969
time, there's kind of this undercurrent here

00:38:53.969 --> 00:38:57.449
of the prepper mentality. I'll bring that up

00:38:57.449 --> 00:39:01.460
again, where people are just kind of, I don't

00:39:01.460 --> 00:39:04.900
know. They are definitely being technology avoided.

00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.199
In fact, one of the folks here says, I don't

00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:10.219
want my face and heart rate to be monitored by

00:39:10.219 --> 00:39:13.599
my car. Well, if I was falling asleep and my

00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:15.360
car could turn itself off and pull it over the

00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:17.619
side of the road safely if I fell asleep, then

00:39:17.619 --> 00:39:20.400
hell yeah, I want my face and my heart rate to

00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:24.849
be monitored by my car, right? As long as that

00:39:24.849 --> 00:39:28.690
data is not being passed on to TMZ, I'm good.

00:39:29.269 --> 00:39:33.130
Do you think TMZ, they've gone to the G -list

00:39:33.130 --> 00:39:35.789
celebrities? I think they will take anything

00:39:35.789 --> 00:39:38.929
they can get. They'll take anything they can

00:39:38.929 --> 00:39:41.869
get. But that's the thing that people are scared

00:39:41.869 --> 00:39:45.340
of. you know, their behaviors that they were

00:39:45.340 --> 00:39:46.880
that they were doing while they thought they

00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:49.179
were in a private situation to be made public.

00:39:49.340 --> 00:39:51.400
Sure. But OK, so further down in the article,

00:39:51.460 --> 00:39:53.800
this quoting from another woman in the articles

00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:56.699
and it's quoting says her beef is with the technology

00:39:56.699 --> 00:39:59.480
to design to help to help drivers drive while

00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:02.199
going down a tick tock rabbit hole on car tech.

00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:04.320
Right at that point, the woman should have just

00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:07.059
stopped, put her phone away. Yeah. She was alarmed

00:40:07.059 --> 00:40:09.239
by one clip in which a woman of similar short

00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:13.000
stature. said her car decelerated after she briefly

00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:15.639
slouched. The eye scanner, she said, mistakenly

00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:19.420
clocked the woman as asleep. Okay, so I have

00:40:19.420 --> 00:40:21.300
a number of questions. One, don't use TikTok

00:40:21.300 --> 00:40:24.480
for anything, ever. Two, if you're that short

00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:26.780
and if you slouch that much so that camera inside

00:40:26.780 --> 00:40:29.179
can't see you, your car seat's too low to begin

00:40:29.179 --> 00:40:31.139
with. You can't see over the steering wheel.

00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:34.880
You shouldn't be driving at all. But more importantly,

00:40:34.900 --> 00:40:40.050
don't use TikTok, ever. Follow us on TikTok.

00:40:40.150 --> 00:40:43.309
Are we on TikTok? No, we're not. We could be.

00:40:43.449 --> 00:40:45.730
I don't think we can produce anything short enough,

00:40:45.889 --> 00:40:48.110
punchy enough. And frankly, we're not getting

00:40:48.110 --> 00:40:52.349
any younger. Hey, not with that attitude. Yeah.

00:40:52.809 --> 00:40:55.570
So with that, let's jump over to the wonderful

00:40:55.570 --> 00:41:00.710
world of what's your segment called, Fred? Fred

00:41:00.710 --> 00:41:05.070
clears his throat. Slight claps. Tower of Fred.

00:41:05.210 --> 00:41:08.190
Here we go. That's right. Tell Fred. Thanks.

00:41:08.429 --> 00:41:11.869
Did you just see the... It's not the Iliad. Never

00:41:11.869 --> 00:41:16.269
mind. Go on. So I want to talk about robo -taxi

00:41:16.269 --> 00:41:20.210
threats. The world talks about the Panglossian

00:41:20.210 --> 00:41:23.090
future and how everything's going to be great

00:41:23.090 --> 00:41:25.869
once AVs take over and everybody will be safe

00:41:25.869 --> 00:41:29.110
and everything will be wonderful. So I got a

00:41:29.110 --> 00:41:32.690
couple of things I want you to consider. So here's

00:41:32.690 --> 00:41:36.679
a situation. An AV with a passenger. suddenly

00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:39.900
stops. Someone taps on the window saying they're

00:41:39.900 --> 00:41:44.059
police and they say, open up. So what do you

00:41:44.059 --> 00:41:46.699
do? Let's talk about risk. There are two factors

00:41:46.699 --> 00:41:50.639
in risk, frequency and the consequence. So what's

00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:53.739
the risk of this situation? According to the

00:41:53.739 --> 00:41:57.000
International Standards Organization, if it's

00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:01.239
safe, they define safety as the absence of unreasonable

00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:05.809
risk. So is this a safe interaction? uh because

00:42:05.809 --> 00:42:09.230
of the risk well what do you think anthony what

00:42:09.230 --> 00:42:11.269
do you think michael is this safe depends what

00:42:11.269 --> 00:42:14.849
i described so far depends what i look like if

00:42:14.849 --> 00:42:18.050
i'm gonna open the door for the police and michael

00:42:18.050 --> 00:42:23.789
um you know i i don't i i guess every situation

00:42:23.789 --> 00:42:25.429
is different it's hard to say one way or the

00:42:25.429 --> 00:42:27.329
other thing is this a real did like a police

00:42:27.329 --> 00:42:30.769
car with flashing lights pull me over well let's

00:42:30.769 --> 00:42:35.300
let me add a couple more details okay The passenger

00:42:35.300 --> 00:42:39.960
is female. And the passenger is a minor. She's

00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:42.920
riding under a Waymo minor pass. So she's in

00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:47.119
the Phoenix area. Yeah. And she's blind. Okay.

00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:52.039
So somebody else accepted the Waymo terms of

00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:55.380
service for her since she's a minor. And so if

00:42:55.380 --> 00:42:59.239
something bad happens without her participation,

00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:02.840
she will have no right to sue for damages. She

00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:04.880
makes the wrong choice about admitting the unknown

00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:08.920
person wrapping on her window. So did I forget

00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:10.940
to mention that there are no provisions for her

00:43:10.940 --> 00:43:13.980
to contact remote assistance because she's blind

00:43:13.980 --> 00:43:18.460
and cannot access the touchscreen? So are we

00:43:18.460 --> 00:43:22.480
still in the safe regime? Is there a, you know,

00:43:22.500 --> 00:43:27.179
is there an audio powered option there, you know,

00:43:27.179 --> 00:43:30.099
beyond the touchscreen? Well, Waymo says no.

00:43:30.179 --> 00:43:34.010
Waymo says they're not. continuously monitoring

00:43:34.010 --> 00:43:38.550
your behavior, and they've only got so many people

00:43:38.550 --> 00:43:44.150
to go around to monitor the performance. Did

00:43:44.150 --> 00:43:46.730
I mention that the remote assistance is staffed

00:43:46.730 --> 00:43:50.230
by a Waymo contractor, insulating Waymo from

00:43:50.230 --> 00:43:53.030
legal consequences if the passenger is attacked?

00:43:53.710 --> 00:43:55.769
Because we don't know who this person is, right?

00:43:57.210 --> 00:44:00.530
Did I mention she's alone in the Waymo? There's

00:44:00.530 --> 00:44:02.170
no one there to help or manage the situation.

00:44:03.670 --> 00:44:07.429
And this can't happen in a regular vehicle that's

00:44:07.429 --> 00:44:10.030
not autonomous because the passengers and mine

00:44:10.030 --> 00:44:12.409
are presumably not able to drive. So there's

00:44:12.409 --> 00:44:15.969
not an analogous situation. And if it's a taxi,

00:44:16.110 --> 00:44:18.809
there's a human driver there. There'd be a human

00:44:18.809 --> 00:44:21.349
driver who would be able to assess the situation

00:44:21.349 --> 00:44:26.090
and at least advise the passenger on what to

00:44:26.090 --> 00:44:29.449
do. What's interesting about this is, what about

00:44:29.449 --> 00:44:32.210
the risk now? With all these factors in here,

00:44:32.349 --> 00:44:34.849
and somebody rapping on the window that she cannot

00:44:34.849 --> 00:44:38.650
identify, saying that they're the police, and

00:44:38.650 --> 00:44:44.110
open up the damn door. Is this safe? Because

00:44:44.110 --> 00:44:47.650
safe is absence of unreasonable risk. So let's

00:44:47.650 --> 00:44:50.489
pretend there's a way for this passenger to contact

00:44:50.489 --> 00:44:52.829
Waymo support, because we've seen this before.

00:44:53.420 --> 00:44:56.460
So they contact Waymo support. Well, how do they

00:44:56.460 --> 00:44:58.539
do that? Because in order to contact support,

00:44:58.900 --> 00:45:02.400
you have to use a touchscreen, and she's blind,

00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:05.000
so she can't see the touchscreen. Let's pretend

00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.860
that Waymo's app is designed for the visually

00:45:07.860 --> 00:45:10.059
impaired, so it's on their phone, and they've

00:45:10.059 --> 00:45:12.519
got some sort of interface there. It's designed

00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:15.780
correctly, and this person can scroll through

00:45:15.780 --> 00:45:18.699
it, find the contact help button. Let's pretend

00:45:18.699 --> 00:45:21.150
they manage to do that. Then it's... Whatever

00:45:21.150 --> 00:45:24.250
delay for Waymo to get there while this person

00:45:24.250 --> 00:45:27.130
saying, I'm a cop, it keeps banging on the window.

00:45:27.449 --> 00:45:30.269
The Waymo support says, what's the problem? And

00:45:30.269 --> 00:45:32.449
they go through this five minute thing. And then

00:45:32.449 --> 00:45:35.889
it's contacting the police officer outside. Prove

00:45:35.889 --> 00:45:38.630
to me that you're a police officer, as we've

00:45:38.630 --> 00:45:41.690
seen them do. And this is a longer interaction.

00:45:41.849 --> 00:45:44.349
So now I imagine the person with the gun and

00:45:44.349 --> 00:45:47.710
a grudge is getting angrier and angrier and angrier.

00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:50.440
This is not safe. What if it's not a cop? What

00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:53.179
if it's somebody who wants to attack her? Exactly.

00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:55.559
That's what I'm saying. If a cop or not, that

00:45:55.559 --> 00:45:58.000
person is getting angrier and angrier and angrier.

00:45:58.300 --> 00:46:01.199
This is not a safe environment. So here's the

00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:03.699
point. Is this safe? Does this sound like a safe

00:46:03.699 --> 00:46:07.340
situation? Because Waymo talks about their safety,

00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.480
right? Safety is their first priority. So is

00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:13.900
she at higher risk alone in the vehicle that

00:46:13.900 --> 00:46:18.380
can be easily stopped by a third party? and threatened

00:46:18.380 --> 00:46:21.920
by the third party? Yes. Or would she be safer

00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:25.539
with another human being in the car who can help

00:46:25.539 --> 00:46:28.380
mediate the situation? The law kind of comes

00:46:28.380 --> 00:46:32.019
into play here in some respects because essentially

00:46:32.019 --> 00:46:34.539
here you've got an intervening criminal action

00:46:34.539 --> 00:46:39.619
taking place that could absolve the vehicle maker

00:46:39.619 --> 00:46:43.690
or operator from any type of liability. It's

00:46:43.690 --> 00:46:45.809
just an old principle in law that if someone

00:46:45.809 --> 00:46:49.469
is committing a crime, particularly here, a potential

00:46:49.469 --> 00:46:54.289
violent crime that threatens safety, is it is

00:46:54.289 --> 00:46:58.269
it is it on Waymo or is it on the perpetrator?

00:46:58.750 --> 00:47:02.030
Well, the as I understand, I mean, can any car

00:47:02.030 --> 00:47:04.289
really protect us in this situation? Say it's

00:47:04.289 --> 00:47:06.070
not a minor, you know, go back to the regular

00:47:06.070 --> 00:47:10.269
car. I mean, I guess if you're a driver. In a

00:47:10.269 --> 00:47:12.170
regular car, you have the option of, you know,

00:47:12.170 --> 00:47:14.750
running the person over, leaving the scene without

00:47:14.750 --> 00:47:17.130
running them over somehow, you know, escaping.

00:47:17.769 --> 00:47:20.070
I think, you know, it's obviously a little more

00:47:20.070 --> 00:47:22.250
difficult, I think, for Waymos to do that since

00:47:22.250 --> 00:47:25.869
they're, I don't think they have programmed them

00:47:25.869 --> 00:47:31.769
to, you know, escape humans. But in the interest

00:47:31.769 --> 00:47:35.590
of time, okay, let's just look at the question,

00:47:35.829 --> 00:47:38.920
is it safe? Waymo says safety is the first priority.

00:47:39.139 --> 00:47:43.639
Have they delivered a system today which would

00:47:43.639 --> 00:47:48.119
be safe in this situation? No. I'm going to say

00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:51.400
no. I would say no. However, the question of

00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:55.280
whether that is a transportation safety issue

00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:59.860
or a different, you know, this isn't a driving

00:47:59.860 --> 00:48:04.000
issue. This isn't a crash issue. This is you're

00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:05.840
basically saying the autonomous vehicle needs

00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:09.460
to. be able to look at a human and determine

00:48:09.460 --> 00:48:11.820
whether they have good or evil intent. I don't

00:48:11.820 --> 00:48:13.480
know if that's ever going to be possible. It's

00:48:13.480 --> 00:48:15.860
a pick -up -and -drop -off issue. Excuse me for

00:48:15.860 --> 00:48:18.039
interrupting, but it's a pick -up -and -drop

00:48:18.039 --> 00:48:21.199
-off issue. It's a real -world issue. It was

00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:25.300
not discussed at ATS. So let me give you another

00:48:25.300 --> 00:48:27.579
situation. This was reported on LinkedIn, actually.

00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:33.500
This is a person who was with his elderly father.

00:48:34.510 --> 00:48:37.070
He called a Waymo. First time he's ever interacted

00:48:37.070 --> 00:48:39.690
with a Waymo. His father has mobility issues,

00:48:39.949 --> 00:48:44.329
right? This is real world. The Waymo stopped

00:48:44.329 --> 00:48:49.250
500 yards away. So they had to go. And we know

00:48:49.250 --> 00:48:51.130
that Waymos don't always show up at the right

00:48:51.130 --> 00:48:53.949
place in the right time. Neither does Uber. Neither

00:48:53.949 --> 00:48:56.269
does anybody who's using Google Maps as a reference,

00:48:56.449 --> 00:48:59.289
despite their insidification that's going on

00:48:59.289 --> 00:49:01.769
right now. But anyway, in this particular instance.

00:49:02.360 --> 00:49:05.860
Google stopped for pickup 500 yards away, which

00:49:05.860 --> 00:49:08.760
was a burden for this guy who has mobility issues.

00:49:09.460 --> 00:49:12.699
Then at the end of the trip, it also stopped

00:49:12.699 --> 00:49:15.059
500 yards away from their intended destination.

00:49:15.880 --> 00:49:18.619
It happened to be at the bottom of a steep hill,

00:49:18.800 --> 00:49:22.099
which separated where they were dropped off from

00:49:22.099 --> 00:49:26.900
where they wanted to be. So, again, there's no

00:49:26.900 --> 00:49:28.900
way to negotiate with a computed destination

00:49:28.900 --> 00:49:33.929
or verbally correct. the destination, which would

00:49:33.929 --> 00:49:37.449
be trivial with a human driver. So, again, let

00:49:37.449 --> 00:49:40.289
me ask you, given the safety issues associated

00:49:40.289 --> 00:49:43.909
with forcing somebody with mobility limitations

00:49:43.909 --> 00:49:47.610
to climb a steep hill, is this safe? Has Waymo

00:49:47.610 --> 00:49:50.769
delivered a safe system? I mean, I would say,

00:49:50.789 --> 00:49:53.050
again, this is kind of a non -traffic safety

00:49:53.050 --> 00:49:56.929
issue, but you do have a choice not to walk 500

00:49:56.929 --> 00:50:01.099
yards and get in a Waymo, right? Well, I mean,

00:50:01.139 --> 00:50:02.980
if they're not providing the service that you

00:50:02.980 --> 00:50:04.599
expect, you don't you don't I mean, you're not

00:50:04.599 --> 00:50:07.440
forced to walk the 500 yards and to do that.

00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:09.500
Well, you're going to get billed for it if you

00:50:09.500 --> 00:50:11.739
don't get in the car because you didn't show

00:50:11.739 --> 00:50:13.960
up for your ride. Sure. Of course you are. I

00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:16.320
mean, Ubers and whatnot. I mean, I would think

00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:19.940
if you said, hey, you know, I've got an elderly

00:50:19.940 --> 00:50:23.300
father who can't walk 500 yards. I doubt Lamo

00:50:23.300 --> 00:50:25.500
is going to follow through on that. Right. You're

00:50:25.500 --> 00:50:31.019
adorable. So the question is, remember, the standard

00:50:31.019 --> 00:50:34.840
for safe is absence of unreasonable risk. Is

00:50:34.840 --> 00:50:37.360
dropping an elderly person with mobility issues

00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:41.679
at the bottom of a hill 500 yards away from their

00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:45.940
destination, which is uphill, is that safe? Given

00:50:45.940 --> 00:50:48.119
the definition that they're using. I'm going

00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:52.619
to say no again. That is not safe. Michael? I

00:50:52.619 --> 00:50:56.849
mean, this is a non... It's a non -traffic safety

00:50:56.849 --> 00:51:01.269
issue. It's different. There are choices here.

00:51:01.590 --> 00:51:04.670
It's not like once you're in the car and you

00:51:04.670 --> 00:51:07.190
have no control over its trajectory and it gets

00:51:07.190 --> 00:51:10.570
in a crash, you have the choice not to ride in

00:51:10.570 --> 00:51:13.869
a Waymo if it's not going to provide the service

00:51:13.869 --> 00:51:16.690
that you want. But you don't know when you're

00:51:16.690 --> 00:51:17.969
going to do it. Yeah, but if you get in the car

00:51:17.969 --> 00:51:19.809
and you don't have that 500 -yard thing at the

00:51:19.809 --> 00:51:21.449
start and you don't know there's already a problem,

00:51:21.510 --> 00:51:23.590
you get in the car and it's going to drop you

00:51:23.590 --> 00:51:26.670
off where it drops you off. And I guess the question

00:51:26.670 --> 00:51:31.349
then, yeah, I guess the question then is, is

00:51:31.349 --> 00:51:37.210
dropping you off, is it a safety, maybe? Absent

00:51:37.210 --> 00:51:38.889
of unreasonable risk. It can be a safety issue.

00:51:39.130 --> 00:51:41.389
Because they could drop you off at some place

00:51:41.389 --> 00:51:44.090
that is unsafe. And we've seen that before in

00:51:44.090 --> 00:51:46.510
the past with Waymos dropping people off at random

00:51:46.510 --> 00:51:49.050
locations in the middle of a street. So my point

00:51:49.050 --> 00:51:50.889
is about, and I can terminate the discussion,

00:51:51.190 --> 00:51:54.079
this is a safety discussion. that was completely

00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:57.519
absent from the ATS conclave, where they should

00:51:57.519 --> 00:51:59.820
be talking about the real -world issues associated

00:51:59.820 --> 00:52:03.860
with the operation of AVs, particularly with

00:52:03.860 --> 00:52:07.460
commercial passengers. And then the final question

00:52:07.460 --> 00:52:11.619
here is, are these people, like other AV -related

00:52:11.619 --> 00:52:14.179
deaths and injuries, just acceptable collateral

00:52:14.179 --> 00:52:18.159
damage on the path to the Panglossian goal of

00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:23.829
safer roads through AV technology? The price

00:52:23.829 --> 00:52:28.110
we've got to pay for this mythical future where

00:52:28.110 --> 00:52:30.590
everybody's going to be safe and everything will

00:52:30.590 --> 00:52:33.750
be wonderful and the taxi drivers will have all

00:52:33.750 --> 00:52:38.429
found alternative careers. You're a glass is

00:52:38.429 --> 00:52:41.429
half empty kind of guy, aren't you, Fred? I'm

00:52:41.429 --> 00:52:45.570
a glass is the wrong size kind of guy. I mean,

00:52:45.590 --> 00:52:46.949
this is an interesting topic because it kind

00:52:46.949 --> 00:52:50.539
of. This kind of falls into the area of the kind

00:52:50.539 --> 00:52:53.280
of things that NHTSA wouldn't typically regulate.

00:52:53.340 --> 00:52:55.119
That's why I keep making this distinction of,

00:52:55.219 --> 00:52:59.880
is it a traffic -related crash or problem there

00:52:59.880 --> 00:53:04.300
versus another type of issue that might be...

00:53:04.300 --> 00:53:07.360
I don't know if this is an issue that could be

00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:11.099
regulated at the local level or something like

00:53:11.099 --> 00:53:14.760
that. My opinion is if you cannot guarantee a

00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:17.639
safe drop -off, You do not have a safe system.

00:53:18.139 --> 00:53:20.300
And in the interest of time, I'll just end it

00:53:20.300 --> 00:53:22.920
there. But I think, Fred, this is a good discussion

00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:25.019
because you made one thing that I'm going to

00:53:25.019 --> 00:53:27.500
disagree with vehemently. You said if there was

00:53:27.500 --> 00:53:29.800
a driver there, you know, disagreeing with a

00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:31.519
human driver would be trivial. And you can say,

00:53:31.599 --> 00:53:34.079
hey, move this 500 yards or drive me up this

00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:36.219
road. And I'm going to use a data point of one.

00:53:36.260 --> 00:53:38.960
I was in Grenada. And I needed the driver to

00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:41.480
go up this very steep hill. And the guy said

00:53:41.480 --> 00:53:43.750
no. And I was like, why not? He's like, that

00:53:43.750 --> 00:53:46.210
road's too steep. I know. I drive up it every

00:53:46.210 --> 00:53:51.130
day. Maybe it was because of the added weight

00:53:51.130 --> 00:53:53.969
in the vehicle. Hey, I'm not a big guy. Come

00:53:53.969 --> 00:53:58.710
on. This is New York, right? Because I was trying

00:53:58.710 --> 00:54:00.150
to make a conversation with him. And I said,

00:54:00.190 --> 00:54:02.250
hey, what about the New York Giants? What do

00:54:02.250 --> 00:54:05.530
you think about them? He said, I wouldn't. I'm

00:54:05.530 --> 00:54:08.269
not interested in football. But if I were interested

00:54:08.269 --> 00:54:10.360
in football. I wouldn't like them because the

00:54:10.360 --> 00:54:12.840
New York Giants, they're in New Jersey. Who the

00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:17.300
hell wants them? Oh, boy. Okay. A couple more

00:54:17.300 --> 00:54:19.079
things just before we jump into recalls. Fred,

00:54:19.159 --> 00:54:22.119
I mean, bravo on that. That was very good. That

00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:26.119
was my favorite towel to date. Thank you. So

00:54:26.119 --> 00:54:33.460
when my friends in SAE crucified me. Do they

00:54:33.460 --> 00:54:36.280
have a standard for, do they have a crucifixion

00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:39.519
standard? They do. Absence of unreasonable bullshit.

00:54:39.820 --> 00:54:42.420
Yeah, exactly. Oh, come on. Phil Copeland's a

00:54:42.420 --> 00:54:46.019
part of the SAE. He won't crucify you. I mean,

00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:47.820
don't get us wrong. There are a lot of great

00:54:47.820 --> 00:54:50.179
people in the SAE. It's just that their overall

00:54:50.179 --> 00:54:53.679
bent is going to always align with industry versus

00:54:53.679 --> 00:54:57.380
consumer safety. It always has. Sure. Yeah. So

00:54:57.380 --> 00:54:58.639
this is something we didn't get to a couple weeks

00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:00.679
ago. This is consumer mail. Somebody wrote in.

00:55:01.150 --> 00:55:03.329
And I apologize for us not responding to this

00:55:03.329 --> 00:55:05.250
earlier. The question was, have you guys ever

00:55:05.250 --> 00:55:08.190
discussed how AVs behave when confronted by funeral

00:55:08.190 --> 00:55:10.369
possessions, which in my state at least do not

00:55:10.369 --> 00:55:12.750
stop for red lights or stop signs? I've never

00:55:12.750 --> 00:55:14.449
been in a state where a funeral possession, everyone

00:55:14.449 --> 00:55:16.889
just lets it go through typically if there's

00:55:16.889 --> 00:55:19.170
a cop there or not. I was in possession once

00:55:19.170 --> 00:55:21.170
in Long Island where people just kept cutting

00:55:21.170 --> 00:55:22.550
it off. But it's Long Island. They're a bunch

00:55:22.550 --> 00:55:26.150
of jerks. And I think, Michael, your response

00:55:26.150 --> 00:55:28.889
was that state laws vary significantly. Right.

00:55:28.949 --> 00:55:31.269
Oh, yeah. Very, very significantly around this.

00:55:31.989 --> 00:55:34.550
But ultimately, I think one of the biggest problems

00:55:34.550 --> 00:55:38.150
that that occur that we would face with AVs and

00:55:38.150 --> 00:55:41.489
funeral processions would be the the hand signals.

00:55:41.789 --> 00:55:43.670
First of all, it's one of those situations like

00:55:43.670 --> 00:55:47.230
we talk about with school buses where a stop

00:55:47.230 --> 00:55:49.889
sign doesn't always, you know, it doesn't mean

00:55:49.889 --> 00:55:52.909
the same thing as a stop sign at a four way stop

00:55:52.909 --> 00:55:54.429
and that kind of thing. I think you kind of run

00:55:54.429 --> 00:55:57.809
into some similar problems here. And you also

00:55:57.809 --> 00:56:00.710
run into problems of police using hand signals,

00:56:00.829 --> 00:56:02.670
which we know these vehicles struggle with, and

00:56:02.670 --> 00:56:06.389
gestures. And just cars don't behave normally

00:56:06.389 --> 00:56:08.210
during funeral processions. They're ignoring

00:56:08.210 --> 00:56:10.769
stoplights. They're, you know, they're basically

00:56:10.769 --> 00:56:15.130
empowered to break the rules of the road. And

00:56:15.130 --> 00:56:17.090
you have to have vehicles that can recognize

00:56:17.090 --> 00:56:19.869
that, which is, you know, probably why Google

00:56:19.869 --> 00:56:24.449
as early as I think 2018, 2020 filed patents

00:56:24.449 --> 00:56:27.909
for how to detect and respond to. to funeral

00:56:27.909 --> 00:56:30.630
processions for autonomous vehicles. So something

00:56:30.630 --> 00:56:33.429
that they're working on and considering, it's

00:56:33.429 --> 00:56:36.630
just that I don't know that they have fully gotten

00:56:36.630 --> 00:56:38.909
their head around it because there are 50 different

00:56:38.909 --> 00:56:41.309
state laws and you have the additional complication

00:56:41.309 --> 00:56:45.949
of interpreting human signals in there. Yeah,

00:56:45.969 --> 00:56:48.650
and yeah, it looks like Waymo does have the patent

00:56:48.650 --> 00:56:52.530
for this method. Moving on. And I think there

00:56:52.530 --> 00:56:55.869
have been a couple of... situations created by

00:56:55.869 --> 00:56:59.369
this where Waymo's pulled out into procession

00:56:59.369 --> 00:57:02.030
or something like that over the years. So there

00:57:02.030 --> 00:57:04.309
definitely been some real world complications

00:57:04.309 --> 00:57:06.750
that this presents. Well, thanks, listener, for

00:57:06.750 --> 00:57:09.090
writing it in. Good question. And now we got

00:57:09.090 --> 00:57:11.530
to talk about Tesla. And this could have actually

00:57:11.530 --> 00:57:13.909
been my gaslight. This is from Electric talking

00:57:13.909 --> 00:57:16.550
about how Tesla at full self -driving version

00:57:16.550 --> 00:57:20.230
14 Lite is causing the hardware version 3 computers

00:57:20.230 --> 00:57:24.630
to fail. What that all means is basically Older

00:57:24.630 --> 00:57:26.710
vehicle Teslas, they're getting new software.

00:57:26.829 --> 00:57:29.190
It's a reduced software instruction set for their

00:57:29.190 --> 00:57:32.389
new cars. And it's causing the computers to overheat

00:57:32.389 --> 00:57:35.809
and no longer work. And so I'm going to quote,

00:57:36.030 --> 00:57:38.630
the more serious reports go beyond throttling.

00:57:38.690 --> 00:57:41.210
So that'd be the software throttling and saying,

00:57:41.269 --> 00:57:43.829
hey, we can't run this program now. And some

00:57:43.829 --> 00:57:45.570
Tesla owners reporting that the computer fully

00:57:45.570 --> 00:57:47.550
shuts down and needs to be replaced, according

00:57:47.550 --> 00:57:50.570
to Tesla Service. Now, my gas light on this,

00:57:50.590 --> 00:57:52.369
I'm going to do another gas light, is electric.

00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:55.340
Their quote is, I don't know what people expect.

00:57:55.780 --> 00:57:58.159
Hardware 3 is now seven -year -old hardware.

00:57:59.079 --> 00:58:01.940
Fair enough. But I think what people expect is

00:58:01.940 --> 00:58:04.260
when they bought this car seven years ago, Elon

00:58:04.260 --> 00:58:06.699
Musk said, I'm going to make it fully autonomous

00:58:06.699 --> 00:58:09.699
and a robo -taxi for you. That's what people

00:58:09.699 --> 00:58:12.420
expect. People expect that the guy who runs the

00:58:12.420 --> 00:58:16.260
company was not lying to them. That's my takeaway.

00:58:17.820 --> 00:58:20.219
Yeah, my takeaway is this is something that...

00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:23.619
it just points to obsolescence of, you know,

00:58:23.619 --> 00:58:26.619
software and hardware enabled vehicles over time.

00:58:26.739 --> 00:58:29.380
You're just, you're not going to be able, the

00:58:29.380 --> 00:58:32.659
promise that Elon made about these vehicles achieving

00:58:32.659 --> 00:58:37.139
full autonomy. collecting fares for their owners

00:58:37.139 --> 00:58:40.280
is never going to happen. And now they're trying

00:58:40.280 --> 00:58:43.400
to essentially retrofit new hardware that these

00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:45.960
old computers can't keep up with. It's just a

00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:49.000
mess. And I think it was inevitable in a lot

00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:52.000
of ways. And, you know, the more bullshit that

00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:54.829
comes out of Musk's mouth. the more people buy

00:58:54.829 --> 00:58:58.150
into this stuff. And this is why this problem

00:58:58.150 --> 00:59:01.429
exists. And a follow -up from past where we've

00:59:01.429 --> 00:59:02.530
talked about, we've talked about the problem

00:59:02.530 --> 00:59:04.769
with Ubers and the problem of sexual assault.

00:59:04.869 --> 00:59:06.630
The vehicles, we're gonna link to an article

00:59:06.630 --> 00:59:09.349
from the New York Times, which Uber publicly

00:59:09.349 --> 00:59:11.929
comes out and says, we never blame the survivors.

00:59:12.309 --> 00:59:14.829
It's, we're always, safety is our number one

00:59:14.829 --> 00:59:17.829
thing. We, sexual violence is never the survivor's

00:59:17.829 --> 00:59:20.150
fault. That's an exact quote from Uber. But we

00:59:20.150 --> 00:59:22.400
find out in - Not an arbitration because that's

00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:25.340
private. We find out in public court cases that

00:59:25.340 --> 00:59:27.760
Uber's lawyers are doing the exact same thing

00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:30.239
and asking questions like, were you wearing heels

00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:33.440
or boots or flats? Tell me about your childhood.

00:59:33.579 --> 00:59:35.460
Do you feel abandoned by your father? What's

00:59:35.460 --> 00:59:38.059
your past sexual history? So in court, they're

00:59:38.059 --> 00:59:41.340
going after these victims and doing the exact

00:59:41.340 --> 00:59:43.260
opposite of what they say. Just think about that

00:59:43.260 --> 00:59:46.019
the next time you're in an Uber. Oh, yeah. And

00:59:46.019 --> 00:59:48.619
they're donating to sexual assault organizations

00:59:48.619 --> 00:59:50.559
to pretend that they're doing the right thing.

00:59:50.599 --> 00:59:52.679
Meanwhile, they're raking the victims down in

00:59:52.679 --> 00:59:56.019
court. For me, this raises the obvious question

00:59:56.019 --> 00:59:58.019
of what would happen? What would have happened

00:59:58.019 --> 00:59:59.860
if Uber had gotten its way from the start and

00:59:59.860 --> 01:00:01.920
been, you know, shuttling all of these folks

01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:04.719
off into arbitration? I mean, what kind of questions

01:00:04.719 --> 01:00:06.579
do you think they're going to ask in a closed

01:00:06.579 --> 01:00:08.739
court where none of this stuff ever makes the

01:00:08.739 --> 01:00:13.360
public? I think they did. I think they were forced.

01:00:13.960 --> 01:00:17.000
to take them out of arbitration because yeah

01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:20.480
so they started saying like if uber had gotten

01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:22.699
its way from the start i mean this this would

01:00:22.699 --> 01:00:24.579
probably be even worse because none of us would

01:00:24.579 --> 01:00:26.820
have any insight into what's going on because

01:00:26.820 --> 01:00:29.480
that's everything in arbitration would be sealed

01:00:29.480 --> 01:00:32.780
what's the uh there's a so there's some sort

01:00:32.780 --> 01:00:35.320
of tort around the the tort of unintentional

01:00:35.320 --> 01:00:37.659
harm or something like that is that what it is

01:00:37.659 --> 01:00:40.079
something Because I feel like that's what these

01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:42.539
lawyers are doing. It's like a tort of an emotional

01:00:42.539 --> 01:00:45.800
distress or where you're knowingly putting someone

01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:50.300
through emotional trauma. Anyway, that has nothing

01:00:50.300 --> 01:00:52.699
to do with a tort of intentional harm. A tort

01:00:52.699 --> 01:00:55.079
of intentional harm. Maybe that's it. But yeah,

01:00:55.219 --> 01:00:58.320
don't believe the hype is what it comes down

01:00:58.320 --> 01:01:01.460
to. And with that, hey, have you gone to autosave

01:01:01.460 --> 01:01:05.280
.org and click on donate? Transitions are not

01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:08.869
great. Let's go do recalls. Oh, boy. First up,

01:01:08.969 --> 01:01:14.829
Mercedes -Benz. Holy cow, 310 ,667 vehicles.

01:01:15.349 --> 01:01:18.929
2019. There's 70 different vehicles. Oh, my God,

01:01:18.969 --> 01:01:21.210
I'm looking at this. Yeah, they've all got dumb

01:01:21.210 --> 01:01:27.610
names, like the GLB35, the GLA, the AMG, the

01:01:27.610 --> 01:01:31.429
4MATIC. These are all 2024s to 2020s. They're

01:01:31.429 --> 01:01:34.630
all over the place. Oh, my. This is a long list.

01:01:34.730 --> 01:01:36.369
This is surprising because Mercedes generally

01:01:36.369 --> 01:01:39.849
doesn't have a Ford -sized recall. If you've

01:01:39.849 --> 01:01:41.829
got a Mercedes -Benz that's been made in the

01:01:41.829 --> 01:01:46.349
last seven years, take a look. Yeah, it's a lot

01:01:46.349 --> 01:01:50.289
of them. Essentially, the electronic parking

01:01:50.289 --> 01:01:52.989
brake doesn't come on when you open the door

01:01:52.989 --> 01:01:57.250
while the vehicle's not in park. Yeah, the housing

01:01:57.250 --> 01:01:59.269
material for the door lock microswitch might

01:01:59.269 --> 01:02:03.960
be more susceptible to moisture permeation. which

01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:05.760
basically means water is getting in there and

01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:08.760
rotting part of this or degrading part of this.

01:02:09.340 --> 01:02:11.380
Should the micro switch fail on the driver door,

01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:13.300
the electronic parking brake and or auto park

01:02:13.300 --> 01:02:14.780
feature connected to the driver door opening

01:02:14.780 --> 01:02:18.480
may not engage automatically. As a consequence,

01:02:18.619 --> 01:02:22.139
this vehicle may roll away. It looks like everybody

01:02:22.139 --> 01:02:27.239
just has to have their lock replaced. I think

01:02:27.239 --> 01:02:29.400
that's just basically a new lock with a new micro

01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:31.519
switch that's not going to have this issue. And

01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:33.639
owners should hear about that in mid -September.

01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:34.920
I mean, this probably shouldn't be a problem

01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:36.900
for Mercedes owners. Most of them carry around

01:02:36.900 --> 01:02:39.260
like blocks of wood they can use as chocks on

01:02:39.260 --> 01:02:41.400
the tire, right? That's pretty standard, right?

01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:45.139
No? All right. Next up, Ford. There we go. 86

01:02:45.139 --> 01:02:51.280
,543 vehicles. 23 to 25 Mustang Mach -E. Rear

01:02:51.280 --> 01:02:53.719
side quarter window glass trim may detach from

01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:58.869
the vehicle while driving. Oh, and they're blaming

01:02:58.869 --> 01:03:01.769
the assembly jig at a supplier's facility decreased

01:03:01.769 --> 01:03:04.389
the time required to install the trim piece.

01:03:04.789 --> 01:03:07.150
And unfortunately, that was an insufficient time

01:03:07.150 --> 01:03:09.269
for a trim primer used during the assembly process

01:03:09.269 --> 01:03:13.449
to cure, resulting in inefficient bond. Customers

01:03:13.449 --> 01:03:16.750
may notice the trim is loose. They may also experience

01:03:16.750 --> 01:03:19.329
wind noise, squeak, and or rattle as they drive.

01:03:19.769 --> 01:03:23.630
So their assembly company said, hey, we've got

01:03:23.630 --> 01:03:25.389
a faster way to do this. And they didn't think.

01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:28.300
Okay, cool. How do we attach this? Oh, yeah.

01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:33.139
Sealant. The sealant will prime quicker. Prime

01:03:33.139 --> 01:03:36.019
quicker? Sure. Why not? It's so unfair. I mean,

01:03:36.039 --> 01:03:38.300
Boeing had panels that popped out, too, and everybody

01:03:38.300 --> 01:03:42.460
got all excited about it. Yeah. I mean, this

01:03:42.460 --> 01:03:45.940
problem's been going on with Ford for a while

01:03:45.940 --> 01:03:50.630
now on a lot of different vehicles. they've got

01:03:50.630 --> 01:03:52.550
a lot of work to do to make sure that this doesn't

01:03:52.550 --> 01:03:54.869
continue happening. I can't even remember how

01:03:54.869 --> 01:03:56.349
many of these we've covered. I know we've covered

01:03:56.349 --> 01:03:58.670
a couple or three of them on the Ford Explorers

01:03:58.670 --> 01:04:01.269
from the past few years, but they need to get

01:04:01.269 --> 01:04:03.650
their sealants straight. Oh, but they need to

01:04:03.650 --> 01:04:05.469
get a lot of things straight. Next up, Ford.

01:04:05.829 --> 01:04:11.849
Oh my God. 47 ,587 vehicles. The 23 to 26 F -250SD.

01:04:12.530 --> 01:04:15.230
Same year as F -150. Is that the same years?

01:04:15.349 --> 01:04:20.730
Nope. The 2021 to 23 F -150s. Affected vehicles

01:04:20.730 --> 01:04:23.230
equipped with accessory protocol interface module

01:04:23.230 --> 01:04:27.130
software prior to version 2 .4 .12 may display

01:04:27.130 --> 01:04:29.369
the camera view menu over the rear view image

01:04:29.369 --> 01:04:34.110
in reverse. This is a new one. I'm going to give

01:04:34.110 --> 01:04:35.570
them this. You put in reverse, you're expecting

01:04:35.570 --> 01:04:37.289
that rear view camera image, and instead you're

01:04:37.289 --> 01:04:39.369
getting a menu. Hey, would you like to listen

01:04:39.369 --> 01:04:44.590
to Microsoft Sync or whatever nonsense? Yeah,

01:04:44.670 --> 01:04:49.199
and this is kind of, you know, two titans. Coming

01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:51.780
together in the form of rear view camera recalls

01:04:51.780 --> 01:04:56.119
and Ford. Yeah. So. Oh, boy. That one's going

01:04:56.119 --> 01:04:58.239
to be it looks like there's an interim notification

01:04:58.239 --> 01:05:00.679
on this. So owners aren't going to be able to

01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:03.079
get this fixed immediately. But it looks like

01:05:03.079 --> 01:05:05.380
by sometime in October, they'll get their final

01:05:05.380 --> 01:05:10.599
remedy out. Rare entrance to the recall roundup.

01:05:10.619 --> 01:05:16.360
Toyota 2381 vehicles. Oh, this is for. OK, so

01:05:16.360 --> 01:05:18.380
this is confusing. It says for the. joints and

01:05:18.380 --> 01:05:20.860
safety systems. This is a curtain shield airbag.

01:05:21.659 --> 01:05:24.800
Yeah, this is not OEM equipment, or at least

01:05:24.800 --> 01:05:26.519
it doesn't come installed on your vehicle. This

01:05:26.519 --> 01:05:29.219
is for people who get replaced in airbags after

01:05:29.219 --> 01:05:31.940
a crash or some other thing. Oh, the subject

01:05:31.940 --> 01:05:34.219
curtain shield airbag assemblies are service

01:05:34.219 --> 01:05:36.619
replacement parts intended for use in certain

01:05:36.619 --> 01:05:40.300
Tacoma vehicles. It may not have been properly

01:05:40.300 --> 01:05:42.360
secured to its mounting bracket in the assembly.

01:05:43.659 --> 01:05:46.119
Portions of it may not reach their intended positions

01:05:46.119 --> 01:05:48.719
in the case of a crash. Okay, so you've already,

01:05:48.820 --> 01:05:50.659
these curtain side airbags have been replaced

01:05:50.659 --> 01:05:52.679
in your car probably because you've already been

01:05:52.679 --> 01:05:55.679
in a crash? Yeah, you've been in a crash or there's

01:05:55.679 --> 01:05:58.039
some other issue that requires replacing the

01:05:58.039 --> 01:06:00.639
airbag. Usually, I think it's going to be a crash.

01:06:01.199 --> 01:06:05.860
Oh, well, the next one is the same. No, the next

01:06:05.860 --> 01:06:08.519
one is basically the same thing. Toyota 1 ,737

01:06:08.519 --> 01:06:11.039
vehicles for the curtain airbags. And this is

01:06:11.039 --> 01:06:13.639
for the Toyota Tundra double cab and crew max

01:06:13.639 --> 01:06:17.280
vehicles. Same thing. Yeah, you'll see. And this

01:06:17.280 --> 01:06:19.739
is an e -recall. So that's instead of 26V like

01:06:19.739 --> 01:06:21.940
our normal ones, this is an E for equipment,

01:06:22.139 --> 01:06:24.900
which essentially is usually going to mean replacing

01:06:24.900 --> 01:06:27.119
equipment for a vehicle. Okay. And those owners

01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:28.719
should be aware that they've had these replaced

01:06:28.719 --> 01:06:32.719
and they'll get notified. They should. And, you

01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:37.619
know, I think this recall looks like the final

01:06:37.619 --> 01:06:40.239
owner notification is in September. So it's not

01:06:40.239 --> 01:06:43.059
going to be too long of a wait for folks to get

01:06:43.059 --> 01:06:46.780
this fixed. I mean, I think you have to be fairly

01:06:46.780 --> 01:06:51.159
concerned about driving a vehicle with a A misplaced

01:06:51.159 --> 01:06:53.900
curtain airbag? With this problem, yeah. I'd

01:06:53.900 --> 01:06:56.639
like to point out, I was watching some show recently,

01:06:56.699 --> 01:06:58.360
and there was a crash, and it was a modern vehicle,

01:06:58.619 --> 01:07:00.940
and they had the front airbags go off, but none

01:07:00.940 --> 01:07:03.199
of the side airbags. Come on, guys. I know we

01:07:03.199 --> 01:07:05.400
wouldn't see the actors then, but come on, really?

01:07:05.559 --> 01:07:07.500
They had side airbags. I mean, was it a frontal

01:07:07.500 --> 01:07:10.800
collision where the side airbags? It was a corner.

01:07:10.940 --> 01:07:16.059
It was kind of the left front corner. That should

01:07:16.059 --> 01:07:17.739
have sent off everything because the car rolled

01:07:17.739 --> 01:07:20.460
and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, last recall. Chrysler.

01:07:20.900 --> 01:07:23.079
Chrysler saying, hey, Ford, we can outdo you.

01:07:23.119 --> 01:07:28.659
1 .2 million vehicles. The 2019 to 2026 Ram 1500.

01:07:30.219 --> 01:07:31.880
Anchorage's attachment hardware and attachment

01:07:31.880 --> 01:07:34.199
bolts should be tested simultaneously, loading

01:07:34.199 --> 01:07:36.760
them in accordance with the Apple plug. What

01:07:36.760 --> 01:07:38.480
happened here? Reduced load management by the

01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:41.139
seat buckle may result in injury to vehicle occupants

01:07:41.139 --> 01:07:43.360
in certain types of driving conditions. So the

01:07:43.360 --> 01:07:46.400
seat buckles don't work. The seatbelt buckles?

01:07:46.900 --> 01:07:50.500
Essentially. Oh, that's not good. Second row

01:07:50.500 --> 01:07:52.739
seatbelt buckle anchors weren't installed properly.

01:07:52.940 --> 01:07:55.260
So you're going to have, you know, obviously

01:07:55.260 --> 01:07:57.860
if you get in a crash and your seatbelts aren't

01:07:57.860 --> 01:08:00.019
installed properly, you're in trouble. So it's

01:08:00.019 --> 01:08:02.320
really important to get this one checked out.

01:08:02.420 --> 01:08:05.760
And it looks like owners are going to hear about

01:08:05.760 --> 01:08:10.230
it either. starting August 18th to September

01:08:10.230 --> 01:08:12.349
24th. So they've got kind of a phased period

01:08:12.349 --> 01:08:15.530
of notification for owners. Well, you know, second

01:08:15.530 --> 01:08:18.350
row seatbelt technology is new. It's, you know,

01:08:18.350 --> 01:08:20.789
they're, you know, it's a relatively new thing.

01:08:20.909 --> 01:08:23.670
They got to cut them some slack, get them used

01:08:23.670 --> 01:08:26.590
to this. Yeah. You know, seatbelts, bolts, bolts

01:08:26.590 --> 01:08:29.829
are a new thing. They got to torque them. This

01:08:29.829 --> 01:08:32.890
is disgusting. That's it. All right. Yeah. That's

01:08:32.890 --> 01:08:34.829
a big, that's a big recall. That is. That's a,

01:08:34.829 --> 01:08:37.699
that's an embarrassing. I mean, not everybody's

01:08:37.699 --> 01:08:39.819
got a, you know, it looks like they got an inspection

01:08:39.819 --> 01:08:42.020
here. So they're going to inspect your buckle

01:08:42.020 --> 01:08:44.380
to make sure if it was installed properly or

01:08:44.380 --> 01:08:48.680
not. But so you may not be getting a fix. You're

01:08:48.680 --> 01:08:50.300
going to be getting verification that the buckle

01:08:50.300 --> 01:08:53.939
is properly installed. Shameful. And with that,

01:08:54.020 --> 01:08:56.779
ladies and gentlemen, thanks for listening. We'll

01:08:56.779 --> 01:09:00.220
be back next week. Ta -ta. Thank you. Goodbye.

01:09:00.880 --> 01:09:05.239
For more information, visit www .autosafety .org.