WEBVTT

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You're listening to There Auto To Be A Law,

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the Center for Auto Safety podcast with Executive

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Director Michael Brooks, Chief Engineer Fred

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Perkins, and hosted by me, Anthony Cimino. For

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over 50 years, the Center for Auto Safety has

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worked to make cars safer. Hey, folks. Today

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is Wednesday, July 29th, and we're going to talk

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all about the wonderful world of Waymo, because

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that's all we seem to ever talk about. Really?

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Well, we're not going to start off that way.

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Actually, we are. We are going to start off that

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way. Geez, is that true? No, we're not. I don't

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know. All right. You know what? We're going to

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start off with this article from Bloomberg. We're

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going to start off with Tesla instead, our other

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bugaboo. Thank you. Yeah. Whoa. Every time in

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the past, just rewind this show to about eight

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months ago. Anytime we'd mention Tesla, Michael

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would cry. And now he's saying thank you. Well,

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you know, Tesla's been kind of brushed, brushed,

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brushed off lately with all the autonomous vehicle

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stuff. So, yeah. I like, you know, I like to

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get back to some of these normal defects occasionally,

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you know, rather than all this crazy AV stuff.

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Right. And I would like to remind listeners,

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first of all, thanks for being here. But secondly,

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we are not focused on autonomous vehicles solely.

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It's just that's what a lot of what's happening

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in chaos. We would love to get back to the topic.

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You know, I'm assuming that's just because a

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lot of the news is obsessed with the future.

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That's true. But and we want to be ahead of the

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curve. So anyway, so let's talk about is this

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is an article from Bloomberg titled U .S. to

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begin work on new car door safety rules after

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deaths and Tesla's. And we've talked about this

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previously where the Tesla door handles are electric.

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And if the 12 volt battery dies or gets disconnected

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that controls these door handles, people get

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trapped inside and people externally trying to

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open the doors can't access the door handles.

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And it's resulted in a number of deaths. It's

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horrific. But I'm a quote directly from this

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article. U .S. auto safety regulators will start

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developing new requirements to ensure drivers

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and passengers can safely exit their vehicles,

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a significant move to address issues exposed

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by sometimes deadly incidents in which people

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have become trapped inside their cars. So, wait,

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there is no requirements for safe egress from

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a vehicle before this? There are some minimal

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requirements that can aid with safe egress, but

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there are no requirements around manual escape

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from a vehicle when you have electric door latches.

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That was the part that blew me away. I just,

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you know, naively assumed again. I mean, there

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are regulations around door latches and how they're

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supposed to work and that type of thing. There

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just aren't any regulations in the door latch

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area that have, you know. In fact, they discussed

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that a little in the document. Basically, we

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got a document the other day, right? NHTSA releases,

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it's essentially a denial of a defect petition.

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A consumer filed a petition saying, hey, I got

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in a crash. My car, I had to exit out of the

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rear seat, I believe, because I couldn't find

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or couldn't locate or we couldn't operate the

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manual release for the front. NHTSA took that

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petition and... I would say, you know, there's

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kind of good news and bad news from this petition.

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You know, I guess the good news from it is that

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we find out that NHTSA has approved a petition

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for rulemaking on this issue, which means they're

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going to start the rulemaking process to put

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out a federal motor vehicle safety standard that

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establishes minimum safety protections in this

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area that they don't have. I guess kind of the

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downside of this is that NHTSA... That's going

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to take, first of all, minimum five years, maybe

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10, who knows, with NHTSA. But the downside is

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I don't feel like they really sufficiently conducted

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a defect investigation here. They're kind of

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just kicking the can to rulemaking, ignoring

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the fact that there are still millions of these

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vehicles on the road with this problem. They

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didn't dive into the hidden manual releases and

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how it's... you know, virtually, they relied

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a lot on the owner's manual and some of the things

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that we've talked about in the past. You know,

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they're saying, oh, I'm sorry, you burned in

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a car. You should have read your owner's manual

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kind of excuse, which is nonsense. And so I guess

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I'm disappointed in the response by NHTSA here.

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I mean, it sets a path for the agency to maybe

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fix this problem in the future by rulemaking,

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but it does nothing. to prevent people from continuing

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to die in all these vehicles that are still on

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the road with these hidden manual releases. I

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don't think this is unique to Tesla, isn't it?

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It's not. Rivian, to some extent, has a problem,

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but the vast majority of vehicles with this problem

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on our roads are going to be Teslas. And, you

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know, I think Rivian only had one model that

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had some issues, and they immediately corrected

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it for the next year after this problem was pointed

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out. Tesla has said, oh, we're correcting it.

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I haven't seen the evidence that they've done

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anything concrete. Well, Tulsa's got another

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problem for safety, which is they use laminated

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glass on the rear doors and passenger doors.

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Yeah, well, that's an industry -wide issue, right?

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That's because NHTSA set its ejection standards

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to allow for glass to... to help them pass the

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test. And so manufacturers started putting laminated

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glass on side windows instead of the traditional

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glass that you could actually break with those

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tools that are sold everywhere. So folks, just

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in case you're not aware of the difference, laminated

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glass has two panes of glass separated by an

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adhesive layer. It's like you have a new windshield.

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And of course, for the windshield, it's important

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because if a stone bounces on your windshield,

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you don't want the whole thing to collapse. as

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it would if it had tempered glass. But for the

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side windows and the rear window, tempered glass

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makes a lot of sense because you can easily break

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it and get out of the car in an emergency. So

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that's the difference. Yeah. And, you know, it's

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a really interesting kind of, it's one of the

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main areas where I think we see the safety trade

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-offs involved in some of the NHTSA decisions

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that are made right there. They know that people

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are going to have a more difficult time escaping

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these vehicles if laminated glass is used on

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the side windows and die, right? They know that's

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going to occur in some numbers, but they also

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know that if tempered glass is used on the side

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windows, that there's a greater risk of passenger

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and driver ejection. And that risk is... Much

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greater than the numbers that are going to be

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over in the category of people who aren't able

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to escape the vehicle because vehicle fires are

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going to be much, much more rare than the potential

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for ejection through a side window and all sorts

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of crash scenarios. And so they purposely, even

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above objection, stating that, you know, that,

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you know, some more people are going to die in

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fires if they can't escape through their windows.

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A whole lot more people are going to be saved

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by not being ejected in those same in these other

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crash scenarios. So it's you know, it's kind

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of one of those the give and take of regulation.

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All right. Let's get back to door handles. I

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don't know how we got on this sidetrack here.

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OK, so there's this is just putting in a proposal

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for a rulemaking that would affect future. doors

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door handle so that what we've talked about in

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the past is these things should work by like

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if you yank on it twice it goes to manual mode

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and pops the door open who knows what solution

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will come up with but michael what i what i just

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heard from you is they're not listing this as

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a defect which would require a recall yeah and

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it would require recall that i think would be

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heavily fought by tesla because going back and

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fixing this problem is i i think would be rather

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expensive i mean you're talking about i i mean

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i don't know tesla could probably agree just

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to give people stickers to put on their manual

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releases um and to do that in the future that

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warned that that let people know where the manual

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releases are so that the hidden manual release

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problem doesn't occur but that doesn't fix a

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lot of the problems here around electric door

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latches right you know we still have the issue

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that we're not even talking about here of first

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responders and good samaritans being able to

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open doors and access the cabin compartment from

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the outside when there's someone inside the car

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that may be incapacitated or unconscious and

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desperately needs to exit the vehicle or have

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help to exit the vehicle. So this is kind of

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half of the problem here that NHTSA's rule looks

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like it's going to address. I'm interested to

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see if they address kind of the full scope of

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the safety issues that electric door latches

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pose. So going forward, good news potentially

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is that NHTSA has a role in place. fix these

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electric door handles, save lives. Bad news is

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if you have a Tesla, you don't have any friends

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still. Yeah, you're not going to be able to get

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a recall to fix this. But if you have a Tesla

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and you're keenly aware of this problem, you

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know where the manual release is already. I think

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what we're really concerned about are just. you

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know, ride share passengers, people hopping into

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these cars who have no idea where any of this

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stuff is, who have no duty to read the owner's

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manual, who are going to be put at risk. And

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also owners who, you know, I would guess 90 %

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of owners aren't reading their owner's manual

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as well. And, you know, when it comes to critical

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safety issues like this that can be fixed and

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designed in a way that's, you know, it's not

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like designing with a better manual release is

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cost prohibitive. They can just reroute it, market

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better. I mean, there's a world in which this

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can be done even more cheaply than what they're

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doing now. So there's no real. cost argument

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here. And I think that we'll see that in the

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regulation. I guess the real cost involved here

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would be forcing Tesla to go back and fix the

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vehicles that are already on the road that have

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this problem. And I think, you know, even though

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the defects office kicked the can down the road

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here, I think that it would have been a very

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tough, a tough road to hoe given Tesla's resistance

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to effective recalls generally. Well, if we all,

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Work and put Elon into a K -hole. Maybe he'll

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see the light. Let's continue with more Tesla

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fun. I know, because I just got to hold off on

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going away more to make my. Oh, I just want to

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mention one more thing about that last one. One

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of my other thing I didn't point out was that

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what the agency did in evaluating this defect

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petition is also kind of suspect because they

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looked at a very specific make model, you know,

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year of Tesla vehicles. pointed out this one

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complaint they found in their database, you know,

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and said, oh, that's kind of the extent of the

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problem here, where we know, you know, there

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have been 15 deaths that have been identified

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in these vehicles as related to this issue, right?

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That's what we've learned through the Bloomberg

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reporting. NHTSA doesn't mention any of that,

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nor does it mention any of the other years, makes

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and models of Tesla that are having the same

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issue. So it was some sleight of hand there that

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I... I don't think there was a really good look

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at the problem. Now, I don't want to move on.

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You said there's 15 deaths related to this, which

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is clearly a defect. Is there? That's what I'm

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saying. Isn't this a defect? Isn't this a defect?

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Why are we blaming the owners for poorly located

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manual releases? I mean, there's been other issues

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that we've covered where less people have died

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and recalls have been issued. Certainly. So how

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the hell are they getting away with now? This

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is ridiculous. Like, how are they getting away

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with that? I'm seeing a real trend here. Blame

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the human. Right. I mean, this is pointing out,

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you know, in their denial that you need to read

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the owner's manual, essentially. So that's just

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blame the human as it gets, because. you know

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obviously everybody that rides in a certain car

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is not going to be the owner nor are they going

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to have access to an owner's manual nor should

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they have to read the fucking owner's manual

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to figure out how to get out of the car when

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it's on fire right does the robo taxi thing does

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that have not their not their model threes that

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you know don't have a driver have a driver thing

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their standalone two -seater thing is that electric

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door handles as well Who knows? I have no idea

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what's in those cars. Because they're not real.

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You mean the ones they're manufacturing without

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any use case? Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

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Well, let's go to a different Tesla subject.

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This is from Electrek. So other AV companies,

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or not even AVs, let's say ADAS systems, they

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use cameras to view things. They use radar. Some

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use LIDAR. Some use ultrasonic sensors. A lot

00:13:10.389 --> 00:13:12.970
of them use combinations of two or more of these

00:13:12.970 --> 00:13:15.149
things to get a view of the road for automatic

00:13:15.149 --> 00:13:20.090
emergency braking, lane detection, blind spot

00:13:20.090 --> 00:13:21.809
monitoring, a whole bunch of things like that.

00:13:21.909 --> 00:13:24.590
And Tesla, under the guise of the world's greatest

00:13:24.590 --> 00:13:28.870
engineer, Elon Musk, says we can just do this

00:13:28.870 --> 00:13:32.210
vision only, bro, because I use my eyeballs and

00:13:32.210 --> 00:13:34.330
that's how I get around the world. Because apparently

00:13:34.330 --> 00:13:37.210
when he gets in a car, he plugs his ears and

00:13:37.210 --> 00:13:40.169
puts on blinders, whatever. So they're trying

00:13:40.169 --> 00:13:43.429
to do this vision -only approach, and as we've

00:13:43.429 --> 00:13:49.190
seen, it's been not a failure, but you're going

00:13:49.190 --> 00:13:51.750
to summer school. If we're grading this, this

00:13:51.750 --> 00:13:56.169
kid's got to get extra help. So Electric, I guess

00:13:56.169 --> 00:13:59.429
somebody found this, or NHTSA found this, that

00:13:59.429 --> 00:14:02.450
Tesla had an internal document, the Radar Saves

00:14:02.450 --> 00:14:04.309
Us document. And I'm going to quote from this.

00:14:04.490 --> 00:14:06.850
NHTSA says Tesla submitted an internal document

00:14:06.850 --> 00:14:09.629
titled Radar Saves Us in response to the earlier

00:14:09.629 --> 00:14:13.210
preliminary investigation, PE, blah, blah, blah.

00:14:13.330 --> 00:14:15.509
The agency now wants everything around it, all

00:14:15.509 --> 00:14:17.450
internal communications, technical documentation,

00:14:17.750 --> 00:14:20.049
test records, and any data the document was built

00:14:20.049 --> 00:14:23.429
from. Here's how the ODI describes why it wants

00:14:23.429 --> 00:14:26.230
to file the Office of Defect Investigation. This

00:14:26.230 --> 00:14:28.409
document appears particularly relevant to related

00:14:28.409 --> 00:14:30.990
design changes to the degradation detection system.

00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:33.980
And Tesla's understanding of the limitations

00:14:33.980 --> 00:14:39.740
imposed by a vision -only OEDR system, object

00:14:39.740 --> 00:14:42.379
event detection ranging, something like that,

00:14:42.460 --> 00:14:45.399
close enough, system, and how they relate to

00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:47.179
the reduced visibility conditions that the subject

00:14:47.179 --> 00:14:49.139
vehicles encounter in each of the nine countable

00:14:49.139 --> 00:14:52.399
crashes. Quoting, read that again, the federal

00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:54.679
safety regulator is telling Tesla that as an...

00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:57.200
It has an internal Tesla document apparently

00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:00.000
called Radar Saves Us that it believes goes to

00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.940
Tesla's own understanding of the weakness of

00:15:01.940 --> 00:15:04.360
a camera -only system and exactly the conditions

00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:06.620
that produces these crashes. These conditions

00:15:06.620 --> 00:15:10.860
were basically sun, glare, fog, airborne dust.

00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:14.019
You know, Elon at one point said that this system

00:15:14.019 --> 00:15:15.679
will work in a complete whiteout conditions.

00:15:15.860 --> 00:15:18.820
They don't. Continuing. The name has never appeared

00:15:18.820 --> 00:15:20.580
in public before this letter. Tesla handed the

00:15:20.580 --> 00:15:22.519
document to NHTSA privately during the earlier

00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:24.840
phase of the investigation, and the agency is

00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:28.320
now formally pulling it into the record. So I

00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:31.320
have two amazing things for this. Tesla had an

00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.840
internal document called Radar Saves Us. actually

00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:37.240
three things to tesla even know what that means

00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:38.960
yeah i don't know what that means but i love

00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:42.539
the title to tesla is it facetious or is it you

00:15:42.539 --> 00:15:44.460
know you just never know what's coming true and

00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:48.559
but then tesla slipped this to nits as investigators

00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:51.759
um but three what blows me away is hey we have

00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:55.120
federal whistleblower protection laws where you

00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.059
can get a ton of money from all these fines why

00:15:58.059 --> 00:16:00.299
didn't somebody just do that instead of you know

00:16:00.299 --> 00:16:02.860
slip it because someone clearly inside tesla

00:16:02.860 --> 00:16:04.700
is like yeah we're gonna let this one go to the

00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:07.460
investigators hey hey person who slipped this

00:16:07.460 --> 00:16:09.799
in come on man could have gotten whistleblower

00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:12.139
protections you could be sitting in fat city

00:16:12.139 --> 00:16:16.279
big old payout and you know five to ten you couldn't

00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:18.259
get it for slipping it and you would get whistleblower

00:16:18.259 --> 00:16:20.679
protectors for reporting that somebody didn't

00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:24.240
didn't provide it to that right and and the request

00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.840
right So this is fascinating. I don't know. There's

00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:31.480
something else behind this whole issue. The timing

00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:34.080
of when Tesla pulled front -facing radar and

00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:36.779
then ultrasonic sensors from its vehicles is

00:16:36.779 --> 00:16:38.960
right around the time of serious supply chain

00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.580
issues in the COVID era, I guess I would call

00:16:42.580 --> 00:16:46.720
it. And so you really have to kind of squint

00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:48.519
your eyes when you're reading about this and

00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:51.840
wonder, you know, was it a cost move? And a supply

00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.139
chain move to save Tesla money ultimately versus

00:16:55.139 --> 00:16:57.700
an engineering matter. I think it was definitely

00:16:57.700 --> 00:17:01.000
a cost move, but every other manufacturer was

00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:04.140
still using radar systems like Tesla wasn't unique

00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:06.880
in this. I think most cars. Nobody has stopped

00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:09.140
as far as I know, except Tesla. Right. Yeah.

00:17:09.140 --> 00:17:13.539
I mean, since 2019, pretty much every new car

00:17:13.539 --> 00:17:16.329
has a radar, a front facing radar system. And

00:17:16.329 --> 00:17:19.049
I think plus it gave them what they thought was

00:17:19.049 --> 00:17:21.009
this great marketing opportunity of saying, hey,

00:17:21.029 --> 00:17:22.849
we've got Tesla vision. We don't need this other

00:17:22.849 --> 00:17:24.730
stuff. We're going to do it with cameras only

00:17:24.730 --> 00:17:27.049
and do it the cheap way. And investors love that

00:17:27.049 --> 00:17:30.849
kind of stuff, right? But that's what's going

00:17:30.849 --> 00:17:33.869
on with Tesla. So this will be interesting when

00:17:33.869 --> 00:17:36.269
NHTSA gets the rest of this documentation. I'm

00:17:36.269 --> 00:17:38.349
curious. I'm curious what happens to the people

00:17:38.349 --> 00:17:40.710
who titled this document. Michael, you have a

00:17:40.710 --> 00:17:42.970
good question. Good point. Was this an internal

00:17:42.970 --> 00:17:46.150
facetious thing given the culture of Tesla? I

00:17:46.150 --> 00:17:49.609
could see that, but that's not normal standard

00:17:49.609 --> 00:17:53.049
operating positions inside an engineering environment.

00:17:53.089 --> 00:17:55.289
I think there's maybe a bigger issue here, which

00:17:55.289 --> 00:17:59.869
is that NHTSA continues to allow these vehicles

00:17:59.869 --> 00:18:02.410
to operate on the road without having any safety

00:18:02.410 --> 00:18:06.630
standards that they must comply with. You know,

00:18:06.670 --> 00:18:10.630
we don't know about Waymo's compliance with any

00:18:10.630 --> 00:18:12.509
reasonable safety standard. We don't know about

00:18:12.509 --> 00:18:16.069
Tesla. We don't know about Zoox. There is no

00:18:16.069 --> 00:18:18.950
standard. It's a wild west. And this is just

00:18:18.950 --> 00:18:22.289
another illustration of the kind of gaps in safety

00:18:22.289 --> 00:18:25.930
that can occur when the government allows vehicles

00:18:25.930 --> 00:18:28.829
to be on the road without having to conform to

00:18:28.829 --> 00:18:31.349
any safety standards applicable to the vehicles.

00:18:31.910 --> 00:18:35.930
It's long overdue for the government to come

00:18:35.930 --> 00:18:38.769
up with those standards, put them into the FMVSS,

00:18:39.049 --> 00:18:43.690
and require those companies to protect the public.

00:18:44.109 --> 00:18:49.099
Yeah. End of rant. We're going on 10 years now

00:18:49.099 --> 00:18:51.180
where, you know, this technology has been available

00:18:51.180 --> 00:18:54.720
in some form or another, and it has significant

00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:59.079
safety implications. And the government has done

00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:03.759
a relatively piss poor job of enforcing recalls

00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:06.339
that worked, getting recalls done in a timely

00:19:06.339 --> 00:19:08.440
manner before other people are killed or injured.

00:19:08.660 --> 00:19:12.529
And so. We're functionally in this limbo world

00:19:12.529 --> 00:19:14.150
where NHTSA is saying, we're going to take care

00:19:14.150 --> 00:19:18.250
of this by recall, not regulation. And we want

00:19:18.250 --> 00:19:22.609
to be technology neutral. We don't want to force

00:19:22.609 --> 00:19:26.529
a company to use something beyond its vision

00:19:26.529 --> 00:19:29.230
if we can't absolutely 1 million percent prove

00:19:29.230 --> 00:19:34.730
that that vision system is unsafe. So it's just

00:19:34.730 --> 00:19:38.700
a, you know. Again, somewhat kicking the can

00:19:38.700 --> 00:19:43.059
down the road and not really doing what a safety

00:19:43.059 --> 00:19:45.839
authority should do in the face of new technology

00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:48.440
posing, you know, pretty significant safety risks

00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:51.299
in a lot of circumstances. Well, and I also want

00:19:51.299 --> 00:19:53.180
to point out the companies are not doing it themselves.

00:19:53.539 --> 00:19:56.440
There have been a lot of circumstances that have

00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:59.420
been documented where self -driving vehicles,

00:19:59.819 --> 00:20:05.200
and I won't even discuss whether level 23477.

00:20:06.250 --> 00:20:08.289
A lot of circumstances where self -driving vehicles

00:20:08.289 --> 00:20:10.910
have been involved in fatal accidents, fatal

00:20:10.910 --> 00:20:14.650
crashes. None of the companies developing these

00:20:14.650 --> 00:20:17.170
are replicating those circumstances in their

00:20:17.170 --> 00:20:20.750
test ranges, as far as we know. None of them

00:20:20.750 --> 00:20:24.369
are doing anything before releasing these vehicles

00:20:24.369 --> 00:20:29.210
to make sure that they are safe in known fatal

00:20:29.210 --> 00:20:35.369
circumstances. There's an astonishing void. End

00:20:35.369 --> 00:20:38.670
of second round. So Michael said this has been

00:20:38.670 --> 00:20:40.509
going on for 10 years, but you know what? This

00:20:40.509 --> 00:20:43.150
podcast has almost been going on for five years,

00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:45.250
a couple more episodes, and that's five years.

00:20:45.369 --> 00:20:48.630
Really? Yeah. I thought it was four. Last week

00:20:48.630 --> 00:20:54.930
was episode four, season four, episode 49. So

00:20:54.930 --> 00:20:58.150
this is episode 50 of the fourth year of doing

00:20:58.150 --> 00:21:00.630
this. Oh, my God. If you support this show and

00:21:00.630 --> 00:21:03.269
you like it, go to autosafe .org and click on

00:21:03.269 --> 00:21:08.759
donate. Is Piggly Wiggly a sponsor yet? No, the

00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:10.859
pig is really being tough. You know, I've been

00:21:10.859 --> 00:21:12.920
in negotiations with them for about four years

00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:15.380
now. Yeah, you're down in their territory, too.

00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:17.339
You're negotiating coupons. They tried to give

00:21:17.339 --> 00:21:22.440
me sweet tea. I don't want sweet tea. Speaking

00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:25.039
of sweet tea, we've been talking about it since

00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:26.819
the start of the show, or I have. It's Waymo

00:21:26.819 --> 00:21:32.230
time. Waymo. So as. Listeners of the show will

00:21:32.230 --> 00:21:34.930
know Waymo is a subsidiary of Alphabet, which

00:21:34.930 --> 00:21:36.990
Alphabet is best known for making a thing called

00:21:36.990 --> 00:21:40.640
the Google. And it's this. Been for years, this

00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:42.980
Silicon Valley darling. It's the greatest thing

00:21:42.980 --> 00:21:45.779
in the world. Blah, blah, blah. All these California

00:21:45.779 --> 00:21:48.480
petition or lawmakers, these California lawmakers

00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.180
like, yeah, they can be exempt from any law.

00:21:51.339 --> 00:21:55.140
They can crash into things, speed, run over people.

00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:57.460
Nothing. Don't worry about it. Parking tickets,

00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:00.160
marking tickets, blah, blah, blah. But I guess

00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.059
people have been listening to this show because

00:22:02.059 --> 00:22:04.640
all of a sudden now, California state regulators

00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:07.579
and California state lawmakers are like, wait

00:22:07.579 --> 00:22:11.769
a second. We don't like this stuff anymore. According

00:22:11.769 --> 00:22:18.750
from Politico, Mullins, which is a state lawmaker,

00:22:18.890 --> 00:22:21.730
this guy Mullins. No, he's not. Mullins is a,

00:22:21.829 --> 00:22:25.730
damn it, who's Mullins? There's a combo here.

00:22:25.829 --> 00:22:27.569
I'll just explain it real quick, right? The San

00:22:27.569 --> 00:22:30.609
Francisco mayor has been pretty vocal about,

00:22:30.650 --> 00:22:34.589
I think, a California law that was introduced,

00:22:34.750 --> 00:22:38.529
I think, in February. that kind of works on some

00:22:38.529 --> 00:22:43.349
of these issues, but also a bill that was just

00:22:43.349 --> 00:22:46.490
announced yesterday by Representative Kevin Mullen

00:22:46.490 --> 00:22:49.890
out of California that essentially is going to

00:22:49.890 --> 00:22:52.009
do a few things, some of which are already kind

00:22:52.009 --> 00:22:53.950
of taking place, but some of the things are not,

00:22:54.069 --> 00:22:55.410
which are important, right? They're going to

00:22:55.410 --> 00:22:58.430
mandate emergency responder guides for every

00:22:58.430 --> 00:23:00.829
AV company. I know an emergency hotline that

00:23:00.829 --> 00:23:04.420
you have to answer in 30 seconds, right? But

00:23:04.420 --> 00:23:07.000
then long term, you know, they've also got a

00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:08.539
list of a lot of things that have to go into

00:23:08.539 --> 00:23:11.019
those emergency responder guys, guides and, you

00:23:11.019 --> 00:23:14.660
know, how you need to respond to local authorities

00:23:14.660 --> 00:23:17.420
when they're making demands so that, you know,

00:23:17.420 --> 00:23:19.559
Zooks and Waymo can't sit on their hands and

00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:22.339
say, well, we don't we don't have we don't want

00:23:22.339 --> 00:23:24.119
you in our cars. We don't want you touching our

00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:25.920
cars. We don't have a steering wheel to move

00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:30.220
out of the way. Like, you know. entitled teenagers

00:23:30.220 --> 00:23:33.940
is what they sound like essentially. But beyond

00:23:33.940 --> 00:23:37.859
that, the bill requires NHTSA to engage in creating

00:23:37.859 --> 00:23:40.579
minimum standards for appropriate responses in

00:23:40.579 --> 00:23:44.500
these situations. Plus, there's a provision that

00:23:44.500 --> 00:23:47.400
would allow local, state, and federal authorities

00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:52.119
to all issue geofence orders in certain circumstances

00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:53.740
where there's an emergency, where there are problems

00:23:53.740 --> 00:23:56.579
like we've seen continuously on the roads across

00:23:56.579 --> 00:24:00.180
America with autonomous vehicles. So it's a good

00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:03.700
bill. And we're still kind of reviewing it, but

00:24:03.700 --> 00:24:07.440
it looks like something we'd support. And this

00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.700
all kind of comes out of the San Francisco mayor

00:24:09.700 --> 00:24:12.400
and the local folks in San Francisco really speaking

00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:16.220
out a lot on this. And so there's a pretty significant

00:24:16.220 --> 00:24:19.420
movement afoot. to get some regulations onto

00:24:19.420 --> 00:24:21.960
autonomous vehicles. And I imagine we're going

00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:24.960
to see this legislation coming up a lot in the

00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:27.000
near future. Yeah, I apologize. Representative

00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:30.920
Mullins, he represents he's a congressman who

00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:33.359
represents areas south of San Francisco, kind

00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:35.640
of the northern section of Silicon Valley. The

00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:38.359
fact that somebody in that area is saying, hey,

00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:42.000
tech companies, slow your roll. That's. That

00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:44.680
is not something that's common. So that's pretty

00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:47.720
interesting. And I would also note that Representative

00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:50.059
Mullen's office is also behind a couple of other

00:24:50.059 --> 00:24:53.140
pending legislative proposals that we really

00:24:53.140 --> 00:24:55.980
support, too. Once the AB Safety Data Act, which

00:24:55.980 --> 00:24:58.920
would expand on what the current standing general

00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.720
order does significantly and allow authorities

00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:04.440
and the public kind of a better glimpse of the

00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:08.279
safety operations of these companies. And he's

00:25:08.279 --> 00:25:12.579
also behind the study on touchscreens and how

00:25:12.579 --> 00:25:14.500
they're affecting driver attention and distraction

00:25:14.500 --> 00:25:17.880
and other things. That is a really important

00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:21.660
thing that NHTSA needs to get on and take a look

00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:25.720
at immediately. Related to this is State Senator

00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.140
Dave Cortese of the South Bay. He introduced

00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:30.859
this from the San Francisco Standard. He introduced

00:25:30.859 --> 00:25:32.619
a bill in February that would set legal standards

00:25:32.619 --> 00:25:34.539
for AV companies to promptly move their robo

00:25:34.539 --> 00:25:36.779
-taxis off the road if they stall or break down.

00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:40.099
Under Cortese's bill, AV companies would be required

00:25:40.099 --> 00:25:42.579
to immediately dispatch a technician to move

00:25:42.579 --> 00:25:44.740
a car if it has a steering wheel or allow first

00:25:44.740 --> 00:25:47.339
responders to move it. If a robo -taxi doesn't

00:25:47.339 --> 00:25:49.759
have controls, the company has to remotely move

00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:51.819
the car or put it in neutral so it can be towed

00:25:51.819 --> 00:25:54.259
as soon as emergency responders ask. If there

00:25:54.259 --> 00:25:56.970
is a fleet -wide system failure, AV companies

00:25:56.970 --> 00:25:58.869
would have to tell cities and first responders

00:25:58.869 --> 00:26:01.509
where their cars are and deploy technicians if

00:26:01.509 --> 00:26:03.809
their vehicles can't be moved and are creating

00:26:03.809 --> 00:26:06.930
traffic or safety issues. This sounds great.

00:26:07.089 --> 00:26:10.089
I have a couple of questions, though. It says

00:26:10.089 --> 00:26:12.549
they'd be required to immediately dispatch a

00:26:12.549 --> 00:26:15.490
technician. I don't know what the word immediately

00:26:15.490 --> 00:26:20.089
means. No one does. That's nonsense. As we've

00:26:20.089 --> 00:26:23.930
seen, Waymo, what we know, has limited technicians.

00:26:25.009 --> 00:26:27.089
Especially as they expand all throughout the

00:26:27.089 --> 00:26:29.690
country. Instead, they've been using DoorDash

00:26:29.690 --> 00:26:33.329
drivers to close their car doors and help things.

00:26:33.450 --> 00:26:36.630
Does a DoorDash driver suddenly become a Waymo

00:26:36.630 --> 00:26:42.309
technician? No. No? Eh, you know. So these are...

00:26:42.309 --> 00:26:45.809
I like the thrust of this. I like the push behind

00:26:45.809 --> 00:26:51.089
this. I hope... I hope the adverts are removed.

00:26:51.309 --> 00:26:53.450
I think it's right. I mean, I don't know how

00:26:53.450 --> 00:26:54.950
you're going to enforce it. I mean, I think.

00:26:55.259 --> 00:26:58.200
I have a really bad idea here, but I think it

00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:02.660
would prompt autonomous vehicle makers to take

00:27:02.660 --> 00:27:05.299
better action here and stop acting like entitled

00:27:05.299 --> 00:27:08.339
teenagers, right? If there's an autonomous vehicle

00:27:08.339 --> 00:27:11.480
blocking the road, a fire truck just rams it

00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:13.920
to the side, right? Like they would do with another

00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:16.039
vehicle that's blocking an emergency situation.

00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:19.519
Maybe we need an AV fleet of Bearcats out there

00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:22.400
to get the message across to AV operators that

00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:25.130
you can't just block roads at will. And then

00:27:25.130 --> 00:27:28.309
when, you know, their fix is proposed, you throw

00:27:28.309 --> 00:27:30.049
your hands up there and say, no, we can't do

00:27:30.049 --> 00:27:31.730
anything about it. And we don't want you touching

00:27:31.730 --> 00:27:34.849
our cars. It just doesn't work that way. You've

00:27:34.849 --> 00:27:37.769
got to get your ass off the road. It's really

00:27:37.769 --> 00:27:41.009
simple, whether you're doing it remotely or even,

00:27:41.049 --> 00:27:44.109
you know, if your vehicle doesn't have a steering

00:27:44.109 --> 00:27:46.650
wheel, why aren't law enforcement authorities?

00:27:47.259 --> 00:27:49.920
you know, provided with some type of way to get

00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:52.259
in and plug in a joystick or something to move

00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:54.200
the vehicle. How are you moving that vehicle

00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:58.119
in your, you know, your parking lot or onto transport

00:27:58.119 --> 00:28:02.299
trucks or in any time you're showing the vehicle

00:28:02.299 --> 00:28:04.599
off roads and non -road environments, that kind

00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:06.660
of thing. Like there has to be a way to manually

00:28:06.660 --> 00:28:10.140
operate these things. And I think it would be

00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:13.279
really helpful to all of the emergency responders

00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:17.210
if when there's a situation like this, it's not

00:28:17.210 --> 00:28:19.890
a matter of calling and waiting for a responder

00:28:19.890 --> 00:28:21.950
on the line to tell you what needs to be done.

00:28:22.309 --> 00:28:24.309
It's just a matter of plugging in the joystick

00:28:24.309 --> 00:28:26.210
and getting the damn thing off the road and alleviating

00:28:26.210 --> 00:28:30.089
the problem immediately. What's wrong with that

00:28:30.089 --> 00:28:34.049
situation? Why aren't we just fixing it in the

00:28:34.049 --> 00:28:37.130
easy way versus going through all this nonsense

00:28:37.130 --> 00:28:42.000
involving calls and sending out people? to retrieve

00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.019
the vehicle when there's an emergency taking

00:28:44.019 --> 00:28:46.799
place. The car's got to move. It's just like

00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.039
when there's a car in front of a fire truck or

00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:51.359
a fire hydrant, you can break the windows and

00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:53.759
run the hose through it. You've got to take emergency

00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:59.079
action. You can't sit there and worry about the

00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:02.440
person or the car that is causing the problem.

00:29:02.680 --> 00:29:05.339
They are an obstacle and they need to be removed.

00:29:06.310 --> 00:29:08.650
I agree. Is that a hard line? I mean, is that

00:29:08.650 --> 00:29:11.109
too hard of a line? I mean, and I think if you

00:29:11.109 --> 00:29:14.710
started, you know, wrecking a million dollar

00:29:14.710 --> 00:29:18.049
Waymo's because they're blocking emergency responders,

00:29:18.230 --> 00:29:19.890
they're going to figure out real quick how not

00:29:19.890 --> 00:29:22.329
to get into that problem. I think that's the

00:29:22.329 --> 00:29:24.829
way to do it. And I think this leads, I don't

00:29:24.829 --> 00:29:26.769
think, I know this leads me to right into my

00:29:26.769 --> 00:29:29.690
gaslight. My gas, I don't know if we qualify

00:29:29.690 --> 00:29:32.589
this as a gaslight so much. It's more of, yeah,

00:29:32.710 --> 00:29:34.529
I'm going to say it's a gaslight. My gaslight

00:29:34.529 --> 00:29:37.309
is Waymo's PR team. That's right, because in

00:29:37.309 --> 00:29:39.329
the past they had us convinced that they were

00:29:39.329 --> 00:29:43.549
the best PR shop in the world. Unbelievable what

00:29:43.549 --> 00:29:45.450
we can see from these two bills that they're

00:29:45.450 --> 00:29:47.670
slipping. They're not as good as they could be.

00:29:47.750 --> 00:29:50.589
You've got a state rep who's like, boo. You've

00:29:50.589 --> 00:29:53.829
got a congressional rep who's like, boo. It's

00:29:53.829 --> 00:29:56.309
you know, the narrative has been changing slowly.

00:29:56.470 --> 00:29:59.210
And Waymo's PR team is just saying safety is

00:29:59.210 --> 00:30:01.579
our number one priority. We work closely with

00:30:01.579 --> 00:30:03.740
local officials. They keep repeating the same

00:30:03.740 --> 00:30:06.940
thing, and it's just not holding up. What they're

00:30:06.940 --> 00:30:09.460
still managing to slip past the goalie is that

00:30:09.460 --> 00:30:11.380
we're safer than humans, which I believe we'll

00:30:11.380 --> 00:30:14.480
get to later in the show. But that is my gaslight

00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:17.720
of the week, is that Waymo's PR team, they had

00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:20.220
us convinced that they were the best in the business.

00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:22.619
But now we can just see they're cut and paste,

00:30:22.779 --> 00:30:25.500
cut and paste. Anyone else want to... I thought

00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:27.400
you said you had a really good gaslight. Come

00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:30.460
on! It's a unique gaslight. No one else has that

00:30:30.460 --> 00:30:34.519
gaslight. Well, I'll go next because mine doubles.

00:30:34.700 --> 00:30:37.400
I'm going to cut Fred off. Yeah, you just did.

00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:42.839
Mine follows up on what Anthony did, so I'll

00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:47.119
go next. Go for it. There was a collision last

00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:52.440
week in Los Angeles between a... Blue car looks

00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:56.019
like a Toyota, maybe. And a Waymo that sent several

00:30:56.019 --> 00:30:59.700
people to the hospital. And according to the

00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:06.160
report that's in Los Angeles Times, the accident

00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:08.920
was initially reported as auto -pedestrian. Apparently,

00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:14.119
the blue car hit the pedestrian, then veered

00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:16.859
across the road, smashed into the side of the

00:31:16.859 --> 00:31:21.950
Waymo. According to the company, the Waymo car

00:31:21.950 --> 00:31:25.190
was traveling at 27 miles per hour on Venice

00:31:25.190 --> 00:31:27.750
Boulevard. It seems like a lot for Venice Boulevard.

00:31:28.029 --> 00:31:31.349
When a blue sedan going 47 to 50 hit a pedestrian

00:31:31.349 --> 00:31:34.250
and swerved into the opposite traffic lane, striking

00:31:34.250 --> 00:31:37.589
the self -driving car. And quoting from their

00:31:37.589 --> 00:31:42.450
PR person, Ethan Tyker, the safety of our riders

00:31:42.450 --> 00:31:46.220
and other road users is our top priority. We

00:31:46.220 --> 00:31:48.279
are coordinating with first responders and are

00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:50.599
grateful for their quick response. So the PR

00:31:50.599 --> 00:31:53.900
team jumped all over it, made a very quick analysis,

00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:57.500
and they added that a Waymo spokesperson suggested

00:31:57.500 --> 00:32:00.240
the company's vehicle was not at fault. Well,

00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:04.180
okay. How did they determine that when the smoke

00:32:04.180 --> 00:32:07.460
is still coming out of the vehicles and the emergency

00:32:07.460 --> 00:32:09.819
responders are still on the scene, number one?

00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:15.289
Number two, so what? At fault is it legal? It's

00:32:15.289 --> 00:32:17.450
got nothing to do with the engineering or the

00:32:17.450 --> 00:32:20.190
kinetics or the dynamics of the crash. If this

00:32:20.190 --> 00:32:23.309
had been a human driver, no doubt they would

00:32:23.309 --> 00:32:27.430
have seen the crash between the blue car and

00:32:27.430 --> 00:32:29.930
the pedestrian happening. They would have put

00:32:29.930 --> 00:32:33.170
the brakes on to slow down and probably avoided

00:32:33.170 --> 00:32:37.769
the secondary crash, which injured the people

00:32:37.769 --> 00:32:42.410
in the Waymos completely. So the context is very

00:32:42.410 --> 00:32:46.359
important. For any driving event that happens,

00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:49.859
when you go down the road and the speed limit

00:32:49.859 --> 00:32:53.019
says 30 miles per hour, but you see a bunch of

00:32:53.019 --> 00:32:55.920
children all holding hands crossing the road,

00:32:56.099 --> 00:32:58.900
that's context that says you really ought to

00:32:58.900 --> 00:33:01.200
slow down. And when you're driving down a road

00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.119
and you see one car smash into a pedestrian and

00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:08.660
then start veering across the road, that's another

00:33:08.660 --> 00:33:11.880
contextual clue. that you should slow the hell

00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:14.299
down and get away from the scene of the accident.

00:33:14.619 --> 00:33:18.440
So it's just simply not true that the safety

00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:22.299
of the riders and other rodeos is their top priority.

00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:25.500
It's way down the list. I mean, the top priority

00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:28.900
is really continued operations. Secondarily,

00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:36.740
it is continuing to promote their expansion into

00:33:36.740 --> 00:33:39.380
other cities. And it's probably all dependent

00:33:39.380 --> 00:33:43.200
upon the ideas of an IPO soon or sale of the

00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:46.019
company that's going to make some money for Alphabet.

00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:50.799
So, end of rant. And that's my Gaslight for this

00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:54.299
week. Once again, nominating Waymo. So, you're

00:33:54.299 --> 00:33:56.279
nominating Waymo as opposed, because it seemed

00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:58.359
like you were nominating their PR team as well.

00:33:59.420 --> 00:34:02.579
I'm giving it to Waymo. The whole thing. It's

00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:05.460
the same thing. I'm going to start naming individuals

00:34:05.460 --> 00:34:08.440
in their PR team next week. Now, Michael, what

00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:11.420
do you got gaslight wise? Mine is the one I'm

00:34:11.420 --> 00:34:13.440
going to take since I suggested to you both and

00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:15.019
you didn't want it, but it's short and sweet.

00:34:15.139 --> 00:34:19.019
We have the DOT announcing that they've launched

00:34:19.019 --> 00:34:22.579
a new initiative using AI to modernize transportation

00:34:22.579 --> 00:34:25.860
infrastructure. So they go on this big spill

00:34:25.860 --> 00:34:27.820
about how they're doing that. They don't provide

00:34:27.820 --> 00:34:30.719
any details whatsoever about what they're doing.

00:34:31.820 --> 00:34:37.920
But Duffy, you know. Duffy's starting to get

00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:39.719
up there in the gaslight rankings. He may get

00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:42.820
a g -lawn soon. It says, we're leveraging cutting

00:34:42.820 --> 00:34:45.360
-edge technologies to deliver a better travel

00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:47.800
experience for American families and stronger

00:34:47.800 --> 00:34:50.480
supply chains for business. This is another tool

00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:53.119
we could use to usher in a golden age of transportation,

00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:56.000
and it's all thanks to President Trump's leadership.

00:34:56.460 --> 00:35:00.190
Doesn't that sound great? It does. That's not

00:35:00.190 --> 00:35:02.889
even the problem necessarily. I mean, they're

00:35:02.889 --> 00:35:04.630
not telling us what any of these technologies

00:35:04.630 --> 00:35:06.969
are. They're not telling us how they're delivering

00:35:06.969 --> 00:35:09.449
a better travel experience for American families

00:35:09.449 --> 00:35:11.590
and stronger supply chains for businesses. Why?

00:35:11.750 --> 00:35:15.150
Probably because it's all bullshit. But the next

00:35:15.150 --> 00:35:17.889
line from the U .S. DOT Assistant Secretary for

00:35:17.889 --> 00:35:20.590
Research and Technology, I believe her name is

00:35:20.590 --> 00:35:24.400
Seville Oz, is the one that really got me. For

00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:27.599
the first time in history, we possess the computational

00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:30.900
power to treat our transportation network as

00:35:30.900 --> 00:35:36.360
a single solvable mathematical equation. Yeah,

00:35:36.380 --> 00:35:38.320
that's a good one. I love that. I'm just going

00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:41.079
to stop there and you guys can discuss it. Well,

00:35:41.179 --> 00:35:43.539
but I know how this is going to work, because

00:35:43.539 --> 00:35:46.239
now with the phones, they're into your personal

00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:49.059
history. They're into the cars. They're into

00:35:49.059 --> 00:35:51.719
the transportation system. So what's going to

00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:55.119
happen is they're going to have. displays up

00:35:55.119 --> 00:36:02.139
on the highway that says suzy has to pee so you

00:36:02.139 --> 00:36:06.059
need to pull over yeah it's just nonsense i mean

00:36:06.059 --> 00:36:08.820
i just haven't seen i've seen a lot of nonsense

00:36:08.820 --> 00:36:12.019
and press releases from the current d .o .t but

00:36:12.019 --> 00:36:15.840
i i there's nothing here first of all this is

00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:18.519
a giant nothing burger with no substantive you

00:36:18.519 --> 00:36:22.690
know sites to anything they're doing here. But,

00:36:22.829 --> 00:36:25.349
you know, the fact that they're saying that our

00:36:25.349 --> 00:36:27.050
transportation, first of all, that we possess

00:36:27.050 --> 00:36:30.110
the computational power to treat our transportation

00:36:30.110 --> 00:36:32.670
network as a single solvable mathematical equation

00:36:32.670 --> 00:36:35.349
is kind of absurd, given the complexities in

00:36:35.349 --> 00:36:37.349
the transportation system, the differences between

00:36:37.349 --> 00:36:40.269
states. And I could probably go on for two hours,

00:36:40.349 --> 00:36:41.969
but I won't bore you with all the differences

00:36:41.969 --> 00:36:44.590
here that have to be taken into account. And,

00:36:44.590 --> 00:36:47.889
you know. We are AI skeptics to some extent here,

00:36:47.989 --> 00:36:51.309
but claiming that AI can solve things which you

00:36:51.309 --> 00:36:53.849
have no evidence of. And, you know, frankly,

00:36:54.010 --> 00:36:57.730
until the entire transportation network is somehow

00:36:57.730 --> 00:37:02.630
connected, connected up in a way that can be

00:37:02.630 --> 00:37:06.130
continuously monitored, it's just not there yet.

00:37:06.170 --> 00:37:08.530
It's not even close. And you'll see these same

00:37:08.530 --> 00:37:12.199
transportation folks. you know, bemoaning the

00:37:12.199 --> 00:37:14.820
lack of cooperation between states on data and

00:37:14.820 --> 00:37:16.980
other things. Well, if you can't get information

00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:19.760
out of the states now, how is the AI getting

00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:22.099
all that information in order to solve this great

00:37:22.099 --> 00:37:25.440
mathematical equation? Anyway, nonsense. And

00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:27.199
that's Gaslight for this week. That's a good

00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:29.300
one. But I think what we're missing here is the

00:37:29.300 --> 00:37:31.900
Department of Transportation is clearly downplaying

00:37:31.900 --> 00:37:34.340
their capabilities and their achievements. To

00:37:34.340 --> 00:37:37.559
do this, I think it's not an exaggeration to

00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:40.079
say they've solved the unified field theory.

00:37:40.510 --> 00:37:45.530
Like they have they have created the mathematics

00:37:45.530 --> 00:37:50.190
that ties all science together. I don't see how

00:37:50.190 --> 00:37:53.309
else you do this because they'd have to pull

00:37:53.309 --> 00:37:57.030
in weather dynamics. They have to pull in expansion

00:37:57.030 --> 00:38:01.710
of roadway joints. I mean, this is they've created

00:38:01.710 --> 00:38:04.469
the physical unified field theory. This is unbelievable.

00:38:04.530 --> 00:38:06.590
Why didn't they win the Fields Medal last week?

00:38:06.690 --> 00:38:10.010
I don't know. Don't forget Susie. She's still

00:38:10.010 --> 00:38:13.510
got that need. That's true. I mean, biological

00:38:13.510 --> 00:38:17.909
processes. I mean, it all comes down to. Yeah,

00:38:18.030 --> 00:38:21.550
this is this is a very materialistic view of

00:38:21.550 --> 00:38:23.250
consciousness. This is everything altogether

00:38:23.250 --> 00:38:25.909
is unbelievable. With that, Michael, you win.

00:38:26.030 --> 00:38:28.469
You win the gaslight. And you thought you were

00:38:28.469 --> 00:38:31.150
just giving us a handout. The way you started

00:38:31.150 --> 00:38:33.570
that paragraph sounded like you were going elsewhere.

00:38:33.889 --> 00:38:38.130
No, no, I think this is actually, I really think

00:38:38.130 --> 00:38:41.530
the gaslight goes to Savelle Oz, the U .S. Department

00:38:41.530 --> 00:38:44.309
of, Assistant Secretary for Research and Technology.

00:38:44.650 --> 00:38:49.909
That person has, I mean, did they used to work

00:38:49.909 --> 00:38:53.400
for Waymo's PR team? He did used to work for,

00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:59.280
I think. Wait, no! Oh, my God. Savelle Oz, you

00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.099
are the winner. I mean, we gave the Lifetime

00:39:02.099 --> 00:39:05.380
Achievement Award to Phil Kopman, but I don't,

00:39:05.380 --> 00:39:08.159
I think, Phil, I'm sorry, we have to, can you

00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:11.860
mail the trophy back to us? Yeah, she was Senior

00:39:11.860 --> 00:39:13.820
Business Development and Global Partnerships

00:39:13.820 --> 00:39:18.039
Lead at Google. Of course she was. Before they

00:39:18.039 --> 00:39:23.179
were Waymo. That's amazing. show is over i don't

00:39:23.179 --> 00:39:25.559
it's my birthday tomorrow but that's yeah that

00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:30.780
wow hey listeners that you're listening to this

00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:32.800
tomorrow which is today for you and which is

00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:34.920
also michael brooks's birthday and if you like

00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:36.559
michael brooks go to autosafety .org and click

00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:39.559
on donate donate one thousand dollars for every

00:39:39.559 --> 00:39:44.320
year of his life Oh, my God. I'm not telling

00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:45.920
you how many of those there are. You're just

00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:47.739
going to have to guess. All right. That could

00:39:47.739 --> 00:39:49.900
be next week's Gaslight. So let's continue with

00:39:49.900 --> 00:39:52.400
Waymo. And I think this might eventually lead

00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:56.880
into the Tau. So Waymo's PR team has gotten every

00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:00.380
single publication, The New York Times, The Guardian,

00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:04.820
The Wall Street Journal, to repeat over and over

00:40:04.820 --> 00:40:08.019
again that Waymos are safer than humans. And

00:40:08.019 --> 00:40:10.800
we've said, where's the data? And, you know,

00:40:10.820 --> 00:40:12.920
as Fred's pointed out numerous times, the data

00:40:12.920 --> 00:40:16.139
is their own self -reported data. And it's very

00:40:16.139 --> 00:40:21.179
limited subset of stuff. And it's voodoo. And

00:40:21.179 --> 00:40:23.239
then we find out a little bit more. Oh, we're

00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:25.760
only comparing ourselves to the very best human

00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:29.800
drivers, not the average human driver. Oh, we're

00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:32.139
blah, blah, blah. Have they ever really done

00:40:32.139 --> 00:40:33.619
that? I don't think they've ever compared themselves

00:40:33.619 --> 00:40:35.519
to the best. Well, the best human drivers are

00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:37.780
the ones who are sober. That's what I mean. So

00:40:37.780 --> 00:40:41.659
my version of the best is because they're including

00:40:41.659 --> 00:40:45.059
everybody. Your version of the best driver is

00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:47.119
just whoever's not drunk. Well, my version of

00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:48.539
the best driver is the one who's paying attention.

00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:51.900
Okay, well. Paying attention, not speeding, not

00:40:51.900 --> 00:40:54.199
drinking is a great start. So I think the three

00:40:54.199 --> 00:40:58.000
of us qualify as the best drivers. Yeah. There

00:40:58.000 --> 00:40:59.900
you go. I mean, I always wonder about this. I

00:40:59.900 --> 00:41:01.960
wonder, well, anyway. Anyway, let's continue

00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:05.659
with this. So IIHS, the Insurance Institute for

00:41:05.659 --> 00:41:07.909
Highway Safety, A highly reputable organization

00:41:07.909 --> 00:41:10.309
that I know sometimes when I talk, they always

00:41:10.309 --> 00:41:12.210
sound like the sarcasm of my voice, but there's

00:41:12.210 --> 00:41:15.750
not. They have an article on the website, Waymo's

00:41:15.750 --> 00:41:17.929
driverless cars crash less often than people.

00:41:18.309 --> 00:41:20.650
And I'm going to quote from it. Per vehicle mile

00:41:20.650 --> 00:41:22.530
traveled, Waymo's driverless vehicles deployed

00:41:22.530 --> 00:41:25.030
in San Francisco, Phoenix, LA, and Austin were

00:41:25.030 --> 00:41:27.610
involved in 68 % fewer crashes than human drivers

00:41:27.610 --> 00:41:30.130
researchers found. The sample was restricted

00:41:30.130 --> 00:41:32.349
to crashes that a person would typically report

00:41:32.349 --> 00:41:35.530
to the police. That's one caveat. Continuing.

00:41:36.010 --> 00:41:38.429
The results show that on a limited scale, these

00:41:38.429 --> 00:41:40.590
driverless cars are safer than human drivers

00:41:40.590 --> 00:41:43.409
who can be impaired or drowsy or suffer losses

00:41:43.409 --> 00:41:46.869
in attention, IIHS President David Harkey said.

00:41:47.030 --> 00:41:50.050
However, the present data collection system isn't

00:41:50.050 --> 00:41:52.449
good enough to allow continuous monitoring of

00:41:52.449 --> 00:41:55.769
a large scale expansion. Further in this, we

00:41:55.769 --> 00:41:59.050
can see, I'm going to quote from a section in

00:41:59.050 --> 00:42:02.599
Jalopnik related to this. In using that common

00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:04.539
sense standard, they estimated that only 22 %

00:42:04.539 --> 00:42:07.559
of the 736 public road crashes in which the automation

00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:10.659
was engaged were likely police reportable. 89

00:42:10.659 --> 00:42:12.880
crashes involving Waymo, 50 involving Cruise,

00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:14.820
10 involving Zoox, 10 involving other companies.

00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:16.940
Because mileage numbers were only available for

00:42:16.940 --> 00:42:19.639
Waymo, they used its crashes to calculate self

00:42:19.639 --> 00:42:22.880
-driving crash rates. Of Waymo's 89 police reportable

00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:25.780
crash involvements, 64 were in driverless operation,

00:42:26.019 --> 00:42:28.199
and others involved supervised use of the automation.

00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:31.559
After all this number crunching, here's IIHS's

00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:33.800
conclusion. Overall, Waymo's crash involvement

00:42:33.800 --> 00:42:37.079
rate was 68 % lower than that of human drivers,

00:42:37.219 --> 00:42:40.659
76 % lower in Phoenix, 35 % lower in San Francisco,

00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:44.940
71 % lower in LA, and 4 % higher in Austin, where

00:42:44.940 --> 00:42:46.639
the sample size is relatively small. Waymo vehicles

00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:49.340
were in 85 % fewer single vehicle crashes and

00:42:49.340 --> 00:42:53.179
81 % fewer injury crashes per vehicle than human

00:42:53.179 --> 00:43:01.530
drivers. IHS has come out with looks that, oh,

00:43:01.570 --> 00:43:05.530
that that that quote that way most PR teams always

00:43:05.530 --> 00:43:08.849
saying that we're safer than humans is true.

00:43:09.309 --> 00:43:13.670
Now, gentlemen, is it true or is it true ish?

00:43:13.989 --> 00:43:17.050
What is it? Well, I mean, I think you need to

00:43:17.050 --> 00:43:19.449
dig a little deeper into what I just said. First

00:43:19.449 --> 00:43:22.230
of all, I mean, there. Their biggest struggle

00:43:22.230 --> 00:43:25.489
in all this, I think, was just trying to match

00:43:25.489 --> 00:43:28.730
up the type of crashes that humans report versus

00:43:28.730 --> 00:43:32.929
what Waymo reports. Just to get to that point

00:43:32.929 --> 00:43:35.289
is excruciating. In fact, they say you probably,

00:43:35.570 --> 00:43:38.289
once this data, you know, particularly if these

00:43:38.289 --> 00:43:40.469
vehicles hit scale or if we've got a lot more

00:43:40.469 --> 00:43:42.190
on the road, we're not going to be able to do

00:43:42.190 --> 00:43:44.469
this analysis anymore because it's too complicated.

00:43:45.889 --> 00:43:47.630
Right now, they could do it because there's so

00:43:47.630 --> 00:43:53.800
few numbers. to kind of dial down on one thing,

00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:57.139
you know, here, this study compared Waymo L4

00:43:57.139 --> 00:43:59.219
vehicles with human drivers, which is an important

00:43:59.219 --> 00:44:01.500
baseline for comparison. I think we can all agree

00:44:01.500 --> 00:44:04.840
on that. Nevertheless, simply having lower crash

00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:07.460
rates than humans does not mean that a level

00:44:07.460 --> 00:44:11.039
four deployment is safe, right? Human crash rates

00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:12.760
include impaired, distracted, and aggressive

00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:16.039
drivers. You know, if we move, if we remove all

00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:19.920
the shitty drivers, what? you know, what's left

00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:24.699
there, right? Is it unfair for Waymo to say we're

00:44:24.699 --> 00:44:28.280
safe when they're comparing themselves to a subset

00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:31.079
of drivers that includes the absolute worst drivers

00:44:31.079 --> 00:44:36.019
known to science, right? And I would say that

00:44:36.019 --> 00:44:38.960
if you're only 60 % better than that, then I

00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:40.760
don't want to be on the road with you, right?

00:44:42.039 --> 00:44:44.400
I really think we need to start looking, and

00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:46.659
maybe this is a project for Fred, but looking

00:44:46.659 --> 00:44:49.780
at what at the crash rate and the incident rate

00:44:49.780 --> 00:44:52.820
for really good human drivers is because i think

00:44:52.820 --> 00:44:54.420
that's what it's going to take for the public

00:44:54.420 --> 00:44:57.079
to actually accept autonomous vehicles all over

00:44:57.079 --> 00:44:59.500
their roads particularly if they continue to

00:44:59.500 --> 00:45:01.579
cause a lot of the headaches that they're causing

00:45:02.300 --> 00:45:05.800
And I think what ultimately this entire study

00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:09.079
points to is not that Waymos are safe and need

00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:10.659
to be deployed all across the roads in America,

00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:13.579
but that, you know, both consumers and the government

00:45:13.579 --> 00:45:17.099
and AV operators and researchers all really need

00:45:17.099 --> 00:45:20.739
better data, more transparent data, and that

00:45:20.739 --> 00:45:23.079
the entire AV industry need to support that goal

00:45:23.079 --> 00:45:27.059
or no one's ever going to trust you to, you know,

00:45:27.059 --> 00:45:29.800
to operate in their cities. And, you know, essentially,

00:45:29.940 --> 00:45:34.590
I think we need to. You know, a plea, IHS isn't

00:45:34.590 --> 00:45:36.070
saying this, but I'm saying this, you know, I

00:45:36.070 --> 00:45:38.730
would make a plea to Waymo and the other operators

00:45:38.730 --> 00:45:41.610
to just stop feeding us garbage, right? Stop

00:45:41.610 --> 00:45:44.570
telling us that just because your vehicle, say

00:45:44.570 --> 00:45:47.630
we accept that these vehicles are 60 % safer

00:45:47.630 --> 00:45:50.670
than the average human driver. Is that even close

00:45:50.670 --> 00:45:53.909
to enough to trust them on our roads? And my

00:45:53.909 --> 00:45:55.969
answer is no. I mean, I think you need to look

00:45:55.969 --> 00:45:58.929
at a factor of at least 10 times safer than that.

00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:02.159
before, you know, I think humans are going to

00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:05.840
accept some of the inevitable deaths and tragedies

00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:09.840
caused by robot cars. I'm sorry, I'm pausing.

00:46:09.900 --> 00:46:11.559
I'm looking at Fred. I imagine he was going to

00:46:11.559 --> 00:46:13.599
jump in. You don't have to. I have follow -up

00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:16.519
questions for Michael. Well, I don't have any

00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:18.860
questions for Michael because I read the same

00:46:18.860 --> 00:46:21.780
report, but I think it's really curious that

00:46:21.780 --> 00:46:25.699
IIHS put this out. I don't know why. The data

00:46:25.699 --> 00:46:33.849
were limited to cars. No newer than 2014. 2024.

00:46:34.710 --> 00:46:40.369
2024, excuse me. And in 2024, they were operating

00:46:40.369 --> 00:46:44.530
in very limited circumstances in only a few cities.

00:46:44.590 --> 00:46:48.710
They've since expanded a lot. So how they can

00:46:48.710 --> 00:46:54.530
project into Austin, which had no drivers in

00:46:54.530 --> 00:46:59.079
2024, I think, and other cities. is really interesting

00:46:59.079 --> 00:47:02.019
to me. They also have a lot of subjective criteria

00:47:02.019 --> 00:47:04.500
in there. They threw out most of the data that

00:47:04.500 --> 00:47:07.360
they had because they thought it didn't represent

00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:10.960
typical drivers or typical vehicles or whatever.

00:47:11.139 --> 00:47:13.599
A lot of subjective considerations went into

00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:16.719
it. And the fact that they used numbers like

00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:21.619
78 % is really questionable because they didn't...

00:47:21.619 --> 00:47:25.360
I'm going to slip right into my towel here. Okay,

00:47:25.619 --> 00:47:29.420
go ahead. Because whenever you see a statistic

00:47:29.420 --> 00:47:33.940
that says 78%, you know it's wrong. And why do

00:47:33.940 --> 00:47:37.599
you know it's wrong? Because, number one, if

00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:42.280
you say 78 % is somehow different than 77%, you're

00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:44.380
really overstating the precision of the numbers.

00:47:44.699 --> 00:47:49.440
If you said somewhere around 70 % to 60%, I could

00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:53.400
buy that. But when you say 78%, you're just creating

00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:56.550
this illusion. that you've got microscopic resolution

00:47:56.550 --> 00:48:00.329
of what the safety or what the parameter really

00:48:00.329 --> 00:48:03.230
is. You don't have one part in a hundred accuracy

00:48:03.230 --> 00:48:08.630
in these things. It just doesn't exist. To illustrate

00:48:08.630 --> 00:48:10.030
that, I'm going to ask you a question, Anthony.

00:48:10.130 --> 00:48:13.889
If you have a die, a standard die, and you roll

00:48:13.889 --> 00:48:17.409
it, what's the odds of getting a six? One out

00:48:17.409 --> 00:48:20.969
of six. And what are your assumptions in that?

00:48:21.449 --> 00:48:23.550
Well, that I didn't get it from Benny, who's

00:48:23.550 --> 00:48:26.570
that weighted die. That's my assumption. I'm

00:48:26.570 --> 00:48:28.949
going to assume that I rolled it on a flat surface.

00:48:28.989 --> 00:48:32.610
And again, Benny didn't shave the corners. Right.

00:48:32.670 --> 00:48:36.030
So you're assuming the die is fair, which is

00:48:36.030 --> 00:48:38.570
the expression. And what that means is that the

00:48:38.570 --> 00:48:40.750
actual center of gravity is exactly in the center.

00:48:41.250 --> 00:48:44.670
The geometry is exactly right. The same amount

00:48:44.670 --> 00:48:47.889
of friction on each surface is the same. The

00:48:47.889 --> 00:48:51.219
surface finish is the same. Same size of all

00:48:51.219 --> 00:48:54.360
faces. All corners are perfectly 90 degrees in

00:48:54.360 --> 00:48:57.300
all three directions. The resiliency is the same

00:48:57.300 --> 00:48:59.659
in all faces, edges, and corners. And there's

00:48:59.659 --> 00:49:02.260
no bias in the handling. You didn't always put

00:49:02.260 --> 00:49:04.500
a certain number up top and do it the same way.

00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:08.239
So there's a lot of data that goes into this,

00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:11.400
a lot of assumptions that go into it. And you

00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:13.900
didn't tell me any of those assumptions, Anthony,

00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:16.840
when you said it's one in six. If you roll the

00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:21.900
dice... large number of times, you find that

00:49:21.900 --> 00:49:25.420
you can have different results in terms of the

00:49:25.420 --> 00:49:28.079
margin of error. Margin of error is some way

00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:31.500
of looking at the uncertainty of the results

00:49:31.500 --> 00:49:34.039
that you're getting. It doesn't mean that if

00:49:34.039 --> 00:49:37.460
you have candidate A is 3 % ahead of candidate

00:49:37.460 --> 00:49:40.280
B, that's within the margin of error that they're

00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:43.179
tied. What it means is that if you did the sampling

00:49:43.179 --> 00:49:47.840
over again with the same results, you would be...

00:49:48.090 --> 00:49:52.869
within the same statistical area with a certain

00:49:52.869 --> 00:49:55.230
frequency, certain what they call confidence,

00:49:55.610 --> 00:50:00.610
right? Whenever you see a reliability statistic

00:50:00.610 --> 00:50:05.090
or some number like this, and they do not attach

00:50:05.090 --> 00:50:08.869
to it a level of statistical confidence, you

00:50:08.869 --> 00:50:11.150
know somebody's trying to pull the wool over

00:50:11.150 --> 00:50:15.309
your eyes. Because statistically, a number like

00:50:15.309 --> 00:50:19.980
78 % 44%, whatever, is meaningless unless you

00:50:19.980 --> 00:50:23.719
also give the statistical confidence associated

00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:27.820
with that number. And you never see that. Certainly

00:50:27.820 --> 00:50:30.059
we never see it in any of the safety statistics

00:50:30.059 --> 00:50:33.400
that are coming out. So what Michael said is

00:50:33.400 --> 00:50:36.760
exactly right. If you throw out all the bad actors,

00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:41.059
then things can look pretty good, right? But

00:50:41.059 --> 00:50:43.320
if you then put a number on it with a stamp and

00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:46.400
you don't talk about the confidence level, It's

00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:49.420
really meaningless. It's very persuasive, but

00:50:49.420 --> 00:50:52.460
it's really meaningless. So in this IIHS study,

00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:57.059
they should have attached a meaningful level

00:50:57.059 --> 00:50:59.280
of confidence to these numbers they're putting

00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:02.260
out there. And it would not be a high number.

00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:05.739
It would not be 99%. It would not be 95%. It

00:51:05.739 --> 00:51:09.500
might be 50%. They have statisticians. They should

00:51:09.500 --> 00:51:11.780
have done that so that they don't mislead the

00:51:11.780 --> 00:51:14.719
public with the results. So, you know, what is

00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:17.239
the margin of error and how should you address

00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:20.679
that? It's different for the different levels

00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:23.179
of confidence that you are associating with the

00:51:23.179 --> 00:51:27.059
data. There are mathematical formulas for how

00:51:27.059 --> 00:51:29.480
you figure out what that is. But the point is,

00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:34.099
the higher the confidence level that you're associating

00:51:34.099 --> 00:51:43.579
with it, the wider is the margin of error. tests

00:51:43.579 --> 00:51:46.980
and results. And you need to make sure that all

00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:49.440
of the circumstances associated with the test

00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:52.659
are identical. Just like talking about the dye

00:51:52.659 --> 00:51:54.500
and all the things that have to be put into the

00:51:54.500 --> 00:51:56.480
manufacturing of the dye. When you're talking

00:51:56.480 --> 00:51:58.860
about traffic accidents, you're talking about

00:51:58.860 --> 00:52:03.360
real world statistics collected on roads with

00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:07.079
all the variables of drivers and everything else

00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:10.780
that goes into driving and just existing. Your

00:52:10.780 --> 00:52:14.159
margin of error cannot be very high unless you're

00:52:14.159 --> 00:52:16.860
looking at hundreds of millions of incidents

00:52:16.860 --> 00:52:21.019
where the circumstances are so numerous that

00:52:21.019 --> 00:52:24.820
you can assume that the variability of the individual

00:52:24.820 --> 00:52:29.500
results washes out of the calculation. So anyway,

00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:33.440
boiling that down to the bottom line, mercifully

00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:37.039
for our listeners, if you see a number that says

00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:42.880
it's 78 % safer, It's 95 % safer than 94%. As

00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:46.860
we've seen, Waymo's numbers vary from 94 % to

00:52:46.860 --> 00:52:51.579
75 % safer within the last two weeks. You know

00:52:51.579 --> 00:52:54.179
it's nonsense because they don't give you the

00:52:54.179 --> 00:52:56.880
data. You can't analyze it. They do not give

00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:59.460
you any confidence levels. They don't even give

00:52:59.460 --> 00:53:01.940
you a margin of error associated with it. So

00:53:01.940 --> 00:53:07.360
be prepared and beware those numbers. End of

00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:12.980
rant. That's rant number three. That's good.

00:53:13.179 --> 00:53:15.820
So even IHS says, and I'm going to quote from

00:53:15.820 --> 00:53:18.559
Eric T. Ho, their director of statistical services

00:53:18.559 --> 00:53:21.940
and the lead author of the studies, quoting,

00:53:22.099 --> 00:53:24.079
now we need to get the data collection systems

00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:26.360
right so that we can ensure the level of safety

00:53:26.360 --> 00:53:28.980
continues as these technologies become more prevalent.

00:53:29.239 --> 00:53:31.179
And from the paper itself and their conclusion,

00:53:31.420 --> 00:53:33.739
basically they say that, hey, Waymo looked to

00:53:33.739 --> 00:53:36.119
be safer than a human in their level four systems.

00:53:37.469 --> 00:53:41.849
uh it is the method of coding narratives is unsustainable

00:53:41.849 --> 00:53:43.510
as these deployments the number of incidents

00:53:43.510 --> 00:53:47.110
continue to grow so it is very confusing saying

00:53:47.110 --> 00:53:49.829
hey right now this limited snapshot snapshot

00:53:49.829 --> 00:53:53.110
in time this looks better but there's no way

00:53:53.110 --> 00:53:56.429
for us to scale this model we used going forward

00:53:56.429 --> 00:53:59.670
which strikes me as as i'm not a statistician

00:53:59.670 --> 00:54:02.130
and i'm sure these guys are incredibly smart

00:54:02.130 --> 00:54:06.099
that strikes me as maybe your math doesn't work

00:54:06.099 --> 00:54:08.719
so well it seems very i'm just surprised this

00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:11.239
was ever released to the public i don't i don't

00:54:11.239 --> 00:54:14.659
get it inconsistent with the results ultimately

00:54:14.659 --> 00:54:18.340
the question here isn't you know whether that's

00:54:18.340 --> 00:54:20.659
right or not in those limited circumstances i

00:54:20.659 --> 00:54:22.320
mean obviously there could be variability all

00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:25.079
over the place but is this even a comparison

00:54:25.079 --> 00:54:29.389
that we should be making right you know You're

00:54:29.389 --> 00:54:32.869
not proving that Waymo is safer than a human

00:54:32.869 --> 00:54:36.010
here. You're proving if this data and everything

00:54:36.010 --> 00:54:39.110
is right, assuming it's all perfect, you're proving

00:54:39.110 --> 00:54:42.449
that these vehicles are operating more safely

00:54:42.449 --> 00:54:47.590
than an amalgamization of humans that includes

00:54:47.590 --> 00:54:50.630
the very worst and the very best and everybody

00:54:50.630 --> 00:54:54.570
in between. So I just don't think that acceptance

00:54:54.570 --> 00:54:58.099
of AVs is just... beating the human average.

00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:04.159
It's doing that by a level of 10, 100, to the

00:55:04.159 --> 00:55:06.780
point where human beings aren't going to be concerned

00:55:06.780 --> 00:55:09.719
about robot cars running over their relatives.

00:55:10.059 --> 00:55:12.079
All right, we need to set up standardized tests

00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:17.239
that can compare human response to stimuli with

00:55:17.239 --> 00:55:21.320
the automated response to stimuli. OEDR, object

00:55:21.320 --> 00:55:23.900
event detection and response, becomes very important

00:55:23.900 --> 00:55:27.130
in this circumstance. And clever people can figure

00:55:27.130 --> 00:55:30.829
out how to do that on a test track. And let's

00:55:30.829 --> 00:55:33.929
just do it. Let's get it done. Yeah. And make

00:55:33.929 --> 00:55:37.070
it better, right? Beating the human or a human

00:55:37.070 --> 00:55:39.110
or whatever humans they're trying to beat out

00:55:39.110 --> 00:55:42.789
in the stats ultimately isn't going to matter

00:55:42.789 --> 00:55:45.719
because their goal should be. Utter perfection.

00:55:46.099 --> 00:55:49.219
And no one killed. Right. Right. Well, I like

00:55:49.219 --> 00:55:50.940
that they said this is only involved. Police

00:55:50.940 --> 00:55:53.960
reported crashes because I've I live on a street

00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:55.880
corner where there's crashes at least once a

00:55:55.880 --> 00:55:58.579
month and half of them are never reported to

00:55:58.579 --> 00:56:00.239
the police. But they're real crashes because

00:56:00.239 --> 00:56:01.980
I watch the owners of vehicles get out and like

00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:04.679
hand each other cash. Because they don't want

00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:07.039
to involve their insurance companies. Yeah, that

00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:10.460
was discussed in there. The rate of reporting

00:56:10.460 --> 00:56:13.280
by humans is pretty low, even in the case of

00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:16.820
injuries. A lot of injury -related crashes aren't

00:56:16.820 --> 00:56:18.940
even reported. Right, so that is definitely a

00:56:18.940 --> 00:56:21.480
skewing thing. But yeah, this is fascinating.

00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:24.420
I think our view, and Michael, stop me if I'm

00:56:24.420 --> 00:56:28.079
wrong, is that money would be better spent on

00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:30.699
technologies we know that work. Alcohol detection.

00:56:31.630 --> 00:56:33.869
things alcohol detection in general just right

00:56:33.869 --> 00:56:38.110
there boom that eliminates you know what was

00:56:38.110 --> 00:56:41.090
it not like 70 of bad drivers right there like

00:56:41.090 --> 00:56:45.170
that reduces crashes dramatically let's let's

00:56:45.170 --> 00:56:48.050
follow it up with automatic emergency braking

00:56:48.050 --> 00:56:50.030
the same that i says for how well that works

00:56:50.030 --> 00:56:53.090
that's another 50 right there and follow it and

00:56:53.090 --> 00:56:57.050
at the same time make the data collection that

00:56:57.050 --> 00:57:00.559
are going on much better whether that's your

00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:03.219
black box in your car, whether it's NHTSA's FAR

00:57:03.219 --> 00:57:05.699
system tracking fatalities, whether it's NHTSA's

00:57:05.699 --> 00:57:07.860
estimate systems, the standing general order,

00:57:08.039 --> 00:57:11.019
like we need better data on how well humans drive,

00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:13.519
how well AVs drive. And right now there are a

00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:16.480
lot of gaps there. And that's something that

00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:19.500
IHS took pains to point out because it's ultimately

00:57:19.500 --> 00:57:22.019
the problem here. One of the big problems here

00:57:22.019 --> 00:57:24.659
is we just simply don't have accurate data to

00:57:24.659 --> 00:57:27.179
make apples to apples comparisons. So they did

00:57:27.179 --> 00:57:29.320
point that all out, but they understand everything's

00:57:29.320 --> 00:57:33.949
going to get So could we have made IIHS a gaslight

00:57:33.949 --> 00:57:37.110
this week? Because we know the headline. I know.

00:57:37.289 --> 00:57:39.889
I know they're a great organization. But, you

00:57:39.889 --> 00:57:41.510
know, they had to know this will get reduced

00:57:41.510 --> 00:57:44.869
to a headline. And maybe my I think I think the

00:57:44.869 --> 00:57:47.489
headline here is more about the difficulties

00:57:47.489 --> 00:57:50.389
in parsing the data and then ultimately relying

00:57:50.389 --> 00:57:53.230
on the conclusions when you have bad data like

00:57:53.230 --> 00:57:54.889
that. That's not the actual headline. That's

00:57:54.889 --> 00:57:56.929
the problem. Now, the headline was a little over

00:57:56.929 --> 00:58:00.150
the top. Right. So but I wouldn't call it a gaslight

00:58:00.150 --> 00:58:03.590
because it's not clear that they had a nonsense

00:58:03.590 --> 00:58:05.510
objective they were trying to promote. Right.

00:58:05.570 --> 00:58:08.730
I mean, there's also here there is a pretty.

00:58:09.150 --> 00:58:11.530
Decent title for the paper, right? Rise of the

00:58:11.530 --> 00:58:13.929
Machines, Crash Experiences of Highly Automated

00:58:13.929 --> 00:58:16.030
Vehicles and Human Drivers, right? That's a lot

00:58:16.030 --> 00:58:19.889
different than, you know, the headline on the

00:58:19.889 --> 00:58:21.989
press release, which is Waymo's driverless cars

00:58:21.989 --> 00:58:24.489
crash less often. And that's the headline that

00:58:24.489 --> 00:58:26.730
Waymo's PR team will come out. Oh, my God. I

00:58:26.730 --> 00:58:29.349
did horrible on Gaslight this week. Oh, their

00:58:29.349 --> 00:58:32.550
PR team's back at it. No wonder I won. Yeah.

00:58:33.449 --> 00:58:35.789
Before we jump into recalls, we're going to do

00:58:35.789 --> 00:58:39.760
a story on my favorite subject. Which, if I can

00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:44.280
find it, is do backup cameras make driving safer?

00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:47.260
That's right. Every, almost seems like every

00:58:47.260 --> 00:58:49.260
hour, there's a backup camera recall. We've talked

00:58:49.260 --> 00:58:51.260
about it continuously. We had Phil Copeland on

00:58:51.260 --> 00:58:53.579
to explain how difficult it is. And so this is,

00:58:53.659 --> 00:58:56.639
we're linking to this from MSN. And I'm going

00:58:56.639 --> 00:58:58.679
to quote, automakers were required to start equipping

00:58:58.679 --> 00:59:00.760
their cars with rear view cameras in 2018. And

00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:02.820
the results have since been dramatic. According

00:59:02.820 --> 00:59:04.360
to research presented at the American Academy

00:59:04.360 --> 00:59:07.639
of Pediatrics 2025 National Conference Exhibition,

00:59:08.059 --> 00:59:09.980
The federal mandate has helped reduce the number

00:59:09.980 --> 00:59:12.320
of severe injuries caused by backovers by almost

00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:17.539
50 % among kids younger than five, while fatalities

00:59:17.539 --> 00:59:20.699
in that age group have decreased by 78%. Meanwhile,

00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:22.840
a study by NHTSA, albeit from pre -mandate error,

00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:25.099
found that people age 70 or older made up some

00:59:25.099 --> 00:59:27.920
26 % of deaths from backup accidents. There's

00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:29.760
also evidence that rearview cameras are especially

00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:32.000
effective in helping older drivers take the helm.

00:59:32.199 --> 00:59:36.400
Per research from IHS, the cameras help cut back

00:59:36.750 --> 00:59:39.349
crashes involving folks age 70 or above by 36

00:59:39.349 --> 00:59:42.050
percent. That compares to a drop of 16 percent

00:59:42.050 --> 00:59:44.869
for younger drivers. Backup cameras are awesome.

00:59:45.110 --> 00:59:48.869
That's my takeaway from this. And I find it more

00:59:48.869 --> 00:59:50.730
and more disgusting that they keep getting recalled.

00:59:50.969 --> 00:59:55.789
This is a proven safety technology. Fix it. I

00:59:55.789 --> 00:59:58.210
mean, look, we want to we want to move this technology

00:59:58.210 --> 01:00:01.449
to the front of the vehicle to, you know, higher

01:00:01.449 --> 01:00:04.170
vehicles, front overs, you know, visibility problems

01:00:04.170 --> 01:00:09.329
are addressed. And maybe we'll see some similar

01:00:09.329 --> 01:00:12.190
life savings and injury preventative results

01:00:12.190 --> 01:00:15.789
like like we have here. But I think it's obvious

01:00:15.789 --> 01:00:19.550
to anyone that that got into their first car

01:00:19.550 --> 01:00:21.769
with a with a backup camera in it that they're

01:00:21.769 --> 01:00:24.150
safer. Right. Don't you remember? I mean, maybe

01:00:24.150 --> 01:00:25.610
you don't remember the moment like you remember,

01:00:25.750 --> 01:00:29.780
you know. when the Challenger exploded or something

01:00:29.780 --> 01:00:31.460
like that. Yeah, we had to learn fractions. You

01:00:31.460 --> 01:00:33.579
certainly remember that experience of getting

01:00:33.579 --> 01:00:35.239
into a car with a rear view camera and saying,

01:00:35.300 --> 01:00:38.559
wow. Yeah. This is a game changer. I get blown

01:00:38.559 --> 01:00:40.800
away when I get into friends, more cars that

01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:42.699
are more modern than mine, where you back up

01:00:42.699 --> 01:00:45.079
and it has the arrows turn as you turn the wheels,

01:00:45.119 --> 01:00:47.900
like the guidelines. It's cool. That's cool.

01:00:47.960 --> 01:00:51.809
And also the systems that deploy, you know. Most

01:00:51.809 --> 01:00:54.510
do this in some way or another. Sensors that

01:00:54.510 --> 01:00:57.010
aren't just camera -based, right? Ultrasonic,

01:00:57.230 --> 01:00:59.110
yeah. They include ultrasonic or radar sensors

01:00:59.110 --> 01:01:02.030
that can beep in relation to objects around you

01:01:02.030 --> 01:01:04.670
and let you know something's there that may not

01:01:04.670 --> 01:01:06.590
be noticeable on the camera. Right, locks and

01:01:06.590 --> 01:01:09.630
brakes. I'm a big, big fan. That's why I need

01:01:09.630 --> 01:01:11.389
them all. Now they just have to learn how to

01:01:11.389 --> 01:01:13.550
build these systems without having to bring them

01:01:13.550 --> 01:01:15.949
back into the shop 12 times. Right, and not tie

01:01:15.949 --> 01:01:18.429
them into the entertainment system and have housings

01:01:18.429 --> 01:01:21.289
for cameras that allow water to enter. Well,

01:01:21.590 --> 01:01:24.190
then you should go straight to recalls. I'm going,

01:01:24.329 --> 01:01:30.150
oh, recalls. First up, Ford. Yeah, Ford, Ford,

01:01:30.250 --> 01:01:35.710
Ford. 565 ,691 vehicles. Have they just recalled

01:01:35.710 --> 01:01:39.349
every vehicle they've ever made? The 2021 -26

01:01:39.349 --> 01:01:42.269
Ford Bronco. A short in the engine compartment

01:01:42.269 --> 01:01:45.710
wiring harness may create heat or spark, resulting

01:01:45.710 --> 01:01:49.250
in fire in the engine compartment area. Oh, no.

01:01:50.670 --> 01:01:52.429
Following a short circuit, a driver may notice

01:01:52.429 --> 01:01:54.670
smoke in the air vents or a cluster warning prior

01:01:54.670 --> 01:01:56.949
to observing flames coming from the passenger

01:01:56.949 --> 01:01:59.610
side engine compartment area. This is horrible.

01:02:01.949 --> 01:02:06.469
I think it's so funny. You're driving down the

01:02:06.469 --> 01:02:08.889
road and you see flames coming out from under

01:02:08.889 --> 01:02:11.150
the hood and you say, oh, well, this is on the

01:02:11.150 --> 01:02:13.889
right -hand side, so I know what this is caused

01:02:13.889 --> 01:02:20.880
by. No, I'm sorry. This is the first time I've

01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:23.980
seen you laugh so long in the show. Is this a

01:02:23.980 --> 01:02:27.679
park outside, Michael? It is not. No, no, because

01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:29.079
it's only going to occur, it looks like, while

01:02:29.079 --> 01:02:33.840
you're driving. Although, I mean, there are,

01:02:33.940 --> 01:02:37.539
you know. circumstances where you have, you know,

01:02:37.559 --> 01:02:39.739
I think with some of the Hyundai and Kia fires

01:02:39.739 --> 01:02:42.559
that we saw with the engine failures or, you

01:02:42.559 --> 01:02:44.539
know, partial failures of the engines that produce

01:02:44.539 --> 01:02:47.300
fires, you can see a situation where someone's

01:02:47.300 --> 01:02:50.179
engine fails on their way or nearby their home

01:02:50.179 --> 01:02:52.039
and they pull into their garage and these things

01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:55.940
happen. But no, it's not a park outside. Long

01:02:55.940 --> 01:03:00.380
way to answer that. Looks like owners, you know,

01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:02.260
you're basically they're going to fix this with

01:03:02.260 --> 01:03:05.210
tape. Right. So you're going to you're going

01:03:05.210 --> 01:03:07.710
to bring your vehicle in and they're going to

01:03:07.710 --> 01:03:11.070
put some they call it convolute sheathing with

01:03:11.070 --> 01:03:12.929
abrasion tape added to the engine compartment

01:03:12.929 --> 01:03:16.550
wiring harness to fix this problem. So you'll

01:03:16.550 --> 01:03:19.030
be hearing about that in later in August so you

01:03:19.030 --> 01:03:23.210
can get taped up. Duct tape is great stuff. Is

01:03:23.210 --> 01:03:26.369
that what it is? Duct tape, isn't it? Fancy duct

01:03:26.369 --> 01:03:32.380
tape. Next up, Ford. 79 ,579 vehicles, the 2026

01:03:32.380 --> 01:03:37.019
-27 Aviator, which gets recalled, it seems, constantly

01:03:37.019 --> 01:03:40.719
the same years for the Explorer. Customers may

01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:47.340
experience unintended and unattended driver seat

01:03:47.340 --> 01:03:50.900
reclining movement. Oh, this can occur while

01:03:50.900 --> 01:03:53.159
remotely unlocking their doors, remote starting

01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:55.239
their vehicle, approaching their vehicle in possession

01:03:55.239 --> 01:03:58.340
of their key fob. Or after recalling one of the

01:03:58.340 --> 01:04:00.639
save button activated seat memory positions.

01:04:01.380 --> 01:04:06.000
So the car is like doing like a vaudeville act

01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:07.920
on you. Like you're going to sit down and it's

01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:10.880
moving back on you. What kind of nonsense is

01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:14.940
this? Well, it happens. It's a really bad. I

01:04:14.940 --> 01:04:17.699
mean, you know, they cite the safety risk as.

01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:22.000
you know, entrapment of the second row passenger,

01:04:22.380 --> 01:04:26.199
unintended reclining if there's no obstacle detection

01:04:26.199 --> 01:04:28.800
of the person in the car. But I also wonder about

01:04:28.800 --> 01:04:33.320
this in crash situations. You know, could this

01:04:33.320 --> 01:04:36.139
happen in a crash? Or could you get out of the

01:04:36.139 --> 01:04:38.920
vehicle, get back in the vehicle, and the vehicle

01:04:38.920 --> 01:04:40.960
seats recline into a different position that

01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:42.739
doesn't support you in a crash, that type of

01:04:42.739 --> 01:04:47.690
thing. But anyway. I don't know how many issues

01:04:47.690 --> 01:04:51.250
there were involved. I don't see a note, but

01:04:51.250 --> 01:04:53.750
they have been getting a lot of complaints. It

01:04:53.750 --> 01:04:58.110
looks like, you know, they've got 133 reports

01:04:58.110 --> 01:05:00.269
of this happening. So it's happening in significant

01:05:00.269 --> 01:05:02.090
amounts. So definitely something they need to

01:05:02.090 --> 01:05:05.670
work on. I don't see a description of the recall

01:05:05.670 --> 01:05:07.750
schedule in here. They're still trying to figure

01:05:07.750 --> 01:05:09.610
it out. They're trying to figure out. Yeah. Like

01:05:09.610 --> 01:05:13.210
usually when this happens, they at least say

01:05:13.210 --> 01:05:16.409
there's an interim, like. You might want to let

01:05:16.409 --> 01:05:20.489
your people know, your owners know that this

01:05:20.489 --> 01:05:23.530
is happening and that you might want to notify

01:05:23.530 --> 01:05:25.590
them directly that there's a potential, that

01:05:25.590 --> 01:05:27.469
there's a recall versus relying on them to check

01:05:27.469 --> 01:05:30.250
the NHTSA database. So I don't know why they

01:05:30.250 --> 01:05:33.989
haven't put any dates in their 573 here. There

01:05:33.989 --> 01:05:36.409
is a note that says if owners can realize this

01:05:36.409 --> 01:05:38.110
is happening, if when they open their card starts

01:05:38.110 --> 01:05:42.940
playing yackety sacks. I don't even know what

01:05:42.940 --> 01:05:45.739
that is. It's from the Benny Hill Show. Next

01:05:45.739 --> 01:05:48.599
up, Jaguar, which Ford owned at one point, didn't

01:05:48.599 --> 01:05:54.920
it? It did. 15 ,535 vehicles, the 21 to 25 Land

01:05:54.920 --> 01:05:58.019
Rover Discovery. A concern has been identified

01:05:58.019 --> 01:06:00.980
where you bought a Jaguar, where the water management

01:06:00.980 --> 01:06:03.019
system on the tailgate of the vehicle may not

01:06:03.019 --> 01:06:05.219
be sufficient to allow water to drain away from

01:06:05.219 --> 01:06:08.119
the rear view camera. It's going to load one

01:06:08.119 --> 01:06:10.579
of the, oh, come. See, this is the same bubble

01:06:10.579 --> 01:06:13.659
gum, people. A water damage camera may not display

01:06:13.659 --> 01:06:17.440
an image or may display an unclear image. Oh,

01:06:17.500 --> 01:06:24.420
come on. I hate this show. You're so tired of

01:06:24.420 --> 01:06:26.519
these. It looks like there's no final notification

01:06:26.519 --> 01:06:30.079
here either. Owners are going to hear about the

01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:32.039
problem, unlike in the last recall, at least,

01:06:32.039 --> 01:06:35.760
from the manufacturer around September 11th.

01:06:38.779 --> 01:06:41.639
I don't understand why these fixes take so long.

01:06:41.659 --> 01:06:43.800
I mean, you've got water draining onto a camera.

01:06:43.960 --> 01:06:49.079
Plug the damn holes. Why this extended period

01:06:49.079 --> 01:06:51.619
to get a relatively simple recall fix? Maybe

01:06:51.619 --> 01:06:53.860
it's not as simple as I think. I don't know.

01:06:53.920 --> 01:06:56.539
It sounds to me like the whole rear tailgate

01:06:56.539 --> 01:06:59.139
is filling up with water because the camera is

01:06:59.139 --> 01:07:00.800
usually above the bottom, and their solution

01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:03.639
is to drill holes in the bottom of the tailgate.

01:07:06.269 --> 01:07:07.630
I don't know how the hell the water is getting

01:07:07.630 --> 01:07:10.389
in. That sounds like a fuel economy issue. Yeah.

01:07:11.309 --> 01:07:13.269
So maybe they're going to put little bilge pumps

01:07:13.269 --> 01:07:18.630
in there. Awesome. Yeah. All right. Last recall,

01:07:18.809 --> 01:07:22.809
Volkswagen, 57 ,851 vehicles. That's a pretty

01:07:22.809 --> 01:07:26.050
big number for Volkswagen in 2024 to 2026 Atlas

01:07:26.050 --> 01:07:29.230
Cross Sport. and the regular Atlas. Under certain

01:07:29.230 --> 01:07:31.630
circumstances, a vehicle may experience a low

01:07:31.630 --> 01:07:33.610
-voltage electrical event that can cause camera

01:07:33.610 --> 01:07:35.610
images, including the rear -view cameras, to

01:07:35.610 --> 01:07:40.389
not appear on the display. So what happens here?

01:07:40.429 --> 01:07:44.989
They got bad wiring. Yeah, it looks like they're

01:07:44.989 --> 01:07:46.929
going to try and update software to fix this.

01:07:47.050 --> 01:07:48.769
Yeah, it's a software issue. It looks like it's

01:07:48.769 --> 01:07:50.909
only going to require software updates, so I'm

01:07:50.909 --> 01:07:53.070
not sure if you would say it's bad wiring. It's

01:07:53.070 --> 01:07:56.210
something in there, wiring. It says they're going

01:07:56.210 --> 01:07:58.250
to upgrade the rear view camera system software

01:07:58.250 --> 01:08:00.670
to a version that is more robust in its handling

01:08:00.670 --> 01:08:04.050
of potential low voltage events. More robust

01:08:04.050 --> 01:08:06.869
software. Fred, you know what that means? If

01:08:06.869 --> 01:08:11.650
voltage low, don't quit. So that's going to come

01:08:11.650 --> 01:08:14.530
out around September 18th. Also wanted to note,

01:08:14.570 --> 01:08:16.329
since I forgot to when we were talking about

01:08:16.329 --> 01:08:19.829
Ford, that Ford is up to 60 recalls in the year

01:08:19.829 --> 01:08:22.470
and 13 and a half million vehicles recalled.

01:08:23.529 --> 01:08:26.949
Second place goes to Chrysler with 24 recalls

01:08:26.949 --> 01:08:30.850
and 2 .5 million vehicles. So even Ford has got

01:08:30.850 --> 01:08:33.710
a lot of vehicles and these recalls that are

01:08:33.710 --> 01:08:36.390
going. And so how many total vehicles have they

01:08:36.390 --> 01:08:40.270
recalled? 13 .5, just this year. 13 .5 million

01:08:40.270 --> 01:08:44.430
and a little over half a year. But how many vehicles

01:08:44.430 --> 01:08:47.909
do they sell per year? That's probably about

01:08:47.909 --> 01:08:51.149
that many. Maybe a little. No, I think that the

01:08:51.149 --> 01:08:54.449
total new car sales in the United States is around

01:08:54.449 --> 01:08:57.609
17 million. Oh, my God. As part of my research

01:08:57.609 --> 01:08:59.510
into Ford recently, I did find that there was

01:08:59.510 --> 01:09:02.949
a, I think it was the 2020 Ford Explorer had

01:09:02.949 --> 01:09:07.930
30 or 31 recalls on it. Oh, no, I just checked.

01:09:08.029 --> 01:09:11.850
That's a record. In 2025, Ford sold approximately

01:09:11.850 --> 01:09:15.439
2 .2 million vehicles in the U .S. 2 .2 million

01:09:15.439 --> 01:09:20.079
and they've recalled over 16 million. I mean,

01:09:20.159 --> 01:09:22.319
they're going back 10 years. I know they're going

01:09:22.319 --> 01:09:25.319
back 10 years, but come on. That's like still

01:09:25.319 --> 01:09:30.100
like that's not a great advertisement. So you

01:09:30.100 --> 01:09:31.939
don't think that just shows their attention to

01:09:31.939 --> 01:09:35.920
safety and their commitment to the entire. Safe

01:09:35.920 --> 01:09:38.359
life cycle of their vehicles, Anthony? No, I

01:09:38.359 --> 01:09:41.420
think it shows to the power of the federal government

01:09:41.420 --> 01:09:43.420
to keep people safe with a consent decree order.

01:09:44.220 --> 01:09:47.279
Exactly. Thank you for not making me bring that

01:09:47.279 --> 01:09:49.979
up. Yeah, this is... Ford's still got another

01:09:49.979 --> 01:09:52.220
year where they have to have an independent monitor

01:09:52.220 --> 01:09:54.020
and prove that they're doing all this stuff right.

01:09:54.140 --> 01:09:56.640
So I don't think this is going to end anytime

01:09:56.640 --> 01:10:00.460
soon, this recall rush by Ford. Wow. All right.

01:10:00.579 --> 01:10:02.840
And with that, ladies and gentlemen, thank you

01:10:02.840 --> 01:10:05.300
for tuning in. Tell your friends, tell your family.

01:10:05.880 --> 01:10:10.340
Click plus subscribe heart icon, whatever app

01:10:10.340 --> 01:10:12.239
you use and however it does it. And we'll be

01:10:12.239 --> 01:10:15.600
back next week. Thank you. Goodbye. Thank you.

01:10:15.600 --> 01:10:18.680
Bye bye. This is where you say goodbye, Michael.

01:10:18.819 --> 01:10:22.640
Thanks. Thank you, everybody. For more information,

01:10:22.779 --> 01:10:25.739
visit www .autosafety .org.