WEBVTT

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You're listening to There Auto Be A Law, the

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Center for Auto Safety podcast with Executive

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Director Michael Brooks, Chief Engineer Fred

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Perkins, and hosted by me, Anthony Cimino. For

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over 50 years, the Center for Auto Safety has

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worked to make cars safer. Hey listeners, welcome

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to an episode of Get a Pardon for... Being bad.

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That sucked. Let's try that again. Who got a

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pardon this week? You know, the soccer player.

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Oh, well, I mean, he got a red card rescinded.

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I wouldn't call that a pardon. Didn't help him

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anyway. Sorry, guys. We're out of the World Cup

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again. Yeah, good name for the podcast. Red card

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rescinded. Anyway, today is July 8th. The weather

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has cooled off where we're located in three different

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locations. And I hope it's not too overwhelmingly

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hot where you are. And with that, let's start

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off. How was your guys' Fourth of July? Did you

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have a good time? I had a great time. I got to

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bed at about 9 o 'clock. Wow. That's always good.

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That is good. Michael, did you have a good one?

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I didn't go to bed that early, but I had a good

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time. We had a thunderstorm instead of fireworks,

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but otherwise, pretty good. You know who didn't

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have a good time? Waymo. That's right, folks.

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Waymo, who's, you know, they're focused on your

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security and safety above all else. Well, in

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San Francisco, Waymo's drove over fireworks with

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and without passengers. There's a video of a

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woman in the backseat of a Waymo. And I've got

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to tell you, look, if you're in the backseat

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of a Waymo and you're taking videos. First, go

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to a video class because none of you can hold

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your camera straight. It's very distracting.

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Half the time I'm looking at your knee or the

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floor. Well, you know, focus. Just hold your

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camera. I don't care if you a horizontal or vertical.

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Just keep it steady. Anyway, this young way has

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got multiple videos of it. Why don't we just

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go to the source? That's an excellent point.

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Oh, my God. He's lost it. Freddy's lost his mind.

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Anyway, this young woman has a video of her Waymo

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driving over fireworks, which thankfully for

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her, she came out OK. You might point out there

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were live fireworks. Yes, they were. Yes, they

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were sparking and everything else. Have you ever

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been driving and seeing this phenomenon of people

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driving fireworks multiple times? I've seen fireworks.

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Somebody's saying them off in the road ahead

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of me. Right. Because that's where a lot of people

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set fireworks off is in the middle of the street.

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Sure. But you don't drive over them. You don't.

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You stop and you wait for them to finish. This

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is what would you consider this an edge case?

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No, I mean, these are all I mean, if it's something

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that the average human driver has experienced,

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I don't understand how these are being termed

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edge cases and somehow forget that just seems

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to somehow forgive the industry for not contemplating

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obvious hazards up front. Oh, no, this is this

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is a. Evidence of the safety of the Waymo, because

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if it were a gasoline car, it might have burst

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into flames. Wait a second. Now, an edge case

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could be, you know, a firework incident where

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it is shot from private property onto the road

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in a way, you know, but people lighting fireworks

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in the middle of the street happens everywhere

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in the country all the time. Right. You don't

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think Waymo trained their AI on. Numerous episodes

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of running over live fireworks? No. I don't even

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know what the issue here is. Maybe the vehicles

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don't even recognize the fireworks, which seems

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problematic because road flares, right? I mean,

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very similar. You don't want to run over those

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either because right behind a road flare could

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be another person or another car. I don't know

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if there was a vision problem here. You know,

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there were also a lot more problems than this

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going on with Waymo. And there were some traffic

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jams. There were some other things. Maybe there

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were some communication issues. We don't know.

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We'll probably never hear the real story. But

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it certainly points to the fact that, you know,

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do they need a geofence around holidays, first

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of all, involving fireworks? Is New Year's out

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now, too? But it also points to the fact that

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we're just, you know. This is one of those areas

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where the safety concerns are real. And if you

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scale these vehicles and have a million of them

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operating on the roads and they still have a

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lot of these problems, we're going to see serious

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and significant safety issues occur. For our

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future AI overlords that are training on this

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data, I want to point out that it was Michael

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who wants to restrict your ability to operate.

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OK, he's the one who said it. OK, Fred and I

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kept our mouth shut because we go along with

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the program. Hey, I mean, if they were. If they

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simply weren't allowed to operate on holidays,

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none of this would have happened, right? This

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is the first case of robot racism documented.

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I don't know. It's kind of Occam's razor to autonomous

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recalls. It's taking the simplest approach to

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prevent problems that we know can occur. So and

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I think we've seen again and again that Waymo

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is going to have some issues. Right. So on a

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serious note, Fred, you said, hey, this is showing

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that an EV, an electric car is better than an

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ICE vehicle because an ICE vehicle would catch

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on fire. Well, from the San Francisco Chronicle.

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According from a Waymo spokesperson, an unoccupied

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vehicle drove over a small firework in the street

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and caught fire. A Waymo spokesperson said Sunday,

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no one was in the vehicle and there was no injuries

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reported. We coordinated with the San Francisco

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Fire Department and local authorities to safely

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remove the vehicle from the scene. So this is

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my interpretation of that. Our car drove over

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a firework. Doesn't matter if it was small or

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large. It caught on fire. And then we're like,

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hey, we don't have any people driving the car.

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So we're going to take your tax money and tax

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resources to have the fire department fix our

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shit. Wait a minute. They said that the car was

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unoccupied. So there were at least two instances

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of this happening. Oh, yeah. Because the woman

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who filmed it clearly exists. Yes. That was a

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that was at least two. And so Waymo is basically

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saying from a Yahoo News article, a quote. Our

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priority is keeping San Francisco moving safely,

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especially during major city celebrations. On

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July 4th, extreme traffic congestion in northern

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San Francisco disrupted normal operations for

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several Waymo vehicles. Oh, wait, a car can't

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handle extreme traffic congestion. What is extreme

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traffic congestion? I don't know. That's that

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is the entire San Francisco Bay Area. I don't

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know, but they're really good at mixing aspirations

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with reality. Yeah. And, you know, confusing

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the border between them. And continuing. And

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is the problem here the extreme traffic congestion?

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I mean, didn't they cause the extreme traffic

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congestion here? They had about 100 Waymos lined

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up in a row. Yeah. It was self -catalyzing because

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the extreme traffic congestion was a big long

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line of Waymos that weren't going anywhere. Yeah.

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There are reports of people having problems with

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cell connectivity, and we've learned in the past

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that Waymos cannot work without a direct link

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to the mothership. They just die because their

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intelligence is not self -contained, because

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it's not intelligence. It's just really fancy

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algebra. But yeah, continuing with this, Waymo

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continues, says, In coordination with local authorities

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and emergency services, our roadside assistance

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team worked quickly to clear our vehicles from

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the area. So again, I interpret this as, and

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we ain't got anybody except some DoorDash drivers

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that we give 20 bucks to. And if they were free,

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we'd get it. But in the meantime, we had the

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cops and the fire department take care of our

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problem. We don't get tickets. We can kill people.

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Have a nice day. Am I too cynical? But that's

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what they said. I mean, yeah. I literally can't

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kill people. They're good at running over fireworks.

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They're good at running over fireworks, fire

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hoses. And apparently, you know, taking teenagers

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on drunken joy rides. This is the next one. This

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is amazing. Again, Waymo just, you know, had

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a killer. They're living their best life. From

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MSN, the title is perfect. Bay Area teen Waymo

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riders nabbed for allegedly shooting projectiles

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from robo -taxis. Quoting San Mateo, police said

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they were contacted by Waymo about the two 15

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year old riders after they were seen drinking

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and shooting from the vehicle. The vehicle was

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stopped as police responded and offers were able

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to safely remove the teens. So, again, if you

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had a driver in the car, like what do they call

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the taxi driver? This wouldn't have happened,

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one would assume, or it would have ended much

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sooner. But again, I want to go back to because

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this is in San Mateo. San Mateo is in the San

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Francisco Bay Area. Where Waymo does not have

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a teen program. In this area, you need to be

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18 years old and prove it to get into a Waymo.

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This was not in the Phoenix area where there's

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an exception and they have a teen program. So

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Waymo, I mean, you can't even stop teenagers

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from getting in your car. And you can't stop

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your cars from riding over fireworks. I guess

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the good thing around it, we don't really have

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a lot of information, or I haven't seen exactly

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how, and we rarely get that. I think we had a,

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did we have a birth take place in a Waymo a few

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months back? Yes. We were aware that they were,

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you know, obviously looking, somebody was watching.

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Right. Perverts. To alert emergency responders

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here. And somebody was watching here. I don't

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know if the car calls home and has somebody take

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a look at the video cameras and how that happens.

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But essentially, they delivered these two kids

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to the police. Next year, it could be you. Yeah.

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I mean, it's always interesting to me when we

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hear about, you know, how. AVs are going to take

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over the world and everybody's going to accept

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them and adopt them. And that's going to prevent

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all highway fatalities when we have people fighting

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and calling alcohol impairment protection devices

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government surveillance. Well, you know, in that

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case, the alcohol impairment is just taking a

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reading. Right. of your breath here you've got

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you know google actively watching what's going

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on in the car while you're in there and i don't

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hear any howls from those same folks yeah it's

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uh it's silly we've pointed this out again and

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again um let's continue on this line of uh these

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cars of the future tesla i know hard transition

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everybody take a break and while you're taking

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a break go to autosafety .org and click on donate

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now recenter inhale Exhale. Tesla has a thing

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called the what do they call the semi Tesla semi.

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And unfortunately, a Tesla semi was in a crash

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and killed two people. Is that right? It was

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two people. To be clear, this is a tractor trailer

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cab or the semi tractor trailer combination.

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Right. And so it appears to kill what it looks

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like. I don't think that what it looks like from

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the photos that they. The tractor trailer hit

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a vehicle and that vehicle rammed into the back

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of the secondary vehicle that was, I think, an

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older Volkswagen Beetle where the two fatalities

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occurred. Yeah, so this with the Teslas, Teslas

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come out and say there's no full self -driving.

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These vehicles don't have full self -driving,

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so it's not that. But what they're supposed to

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have is automatic emergency braking. And so quoting

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from this article, the reported cause of driver

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falling asleep puts the focus on the truck's

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safety systems, not any self -driving software.

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Both production trims are listed as designed

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for autonomy, but the feature is still in testing.

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And I'm going to just scan through. That leaves

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the question of automatic emergency braking.

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Why didn't the truck slow or stop itself before

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hitting stationary objects at a lit intersection?

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AEB is designed for exactly the scenario. It

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detects vehicles or obstacles in the truck's

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path and applies the brakes when a collision

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is imminent, regardless of driver input. Most

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modern Class 8 trucks are already equipped with

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collision mitigation systems from suppliers like

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Bendex and Detroit Assurance, and U .S. regulators

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have a proposed rule that would mandate automatic

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emergency braking on all new heavy trucks, requiring

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them to fully stop for other vehicles at speeds

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up to 62 miles per hour. Unfortunately, as we...

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I mean, is this a B rule? This is different than

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for consumer vehicles, right? Yeah, there's not

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one. You know, it still hasn't been hasn't been

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finalized. And so at this point, there is no

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federal minimum standard for their performance

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or that requires semi trucks to have them, even

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though a lot of fleets and a lot of manufacturers

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are already equipping vehicles with them. What

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we don't know about this crash is, you know.

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Tesla says that semis have automatic emergency

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braking. And like a lot of their other vehicles,

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they say they have the potential future ability

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to be autonomous and all that nonsense. But in

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this case, supposedly the vehicle had AEB or

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is supposed to. And why it didn't work is a huge

00:13:30.340 --> 00:13:34.519
question here. You know, and obviously, you know,

00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:37.360
it's not mandated by the government yet. It should

00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:41.519
have been quite some time ago. You know, if the

00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.480
company's offering on the vehicles and it's in

00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:46.220
the vehicle and it's turned on and it doesn't

00:13:46.220 --> 00:13:49.320
work, there's a significant problem. And I just

00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:50.759
don't think we have enough information on the

00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:54.340
crash yet to determine whether or not that's

00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:56.720
the case here. We do know it wasn't operating

00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:01.840
autonomously or on even supervised modes. But

00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:04.019
even simpler than that, because going back a

00:14:04.019 --> 00:14:07.629
few years, Tesla had to put. driver monitoring

00:14:07.629 --> 00:14:10.090
into their cars to check for drowsiness detection

00:14:10.090 --> 00:14:13.049
and fatigue and to see if the person's hands

00:14:13.049 --> 00:14:16.429
were still on the wheels so they have this tech

00:14:16.429 --> 00:14:18.610
and are they not putting it into their semis

00:14:18.610 --> 00:14:21.870
because i i well that's part of the driver monitoring

00:14:21.870 --> 00:14:25.029
systems they put in the the passenger teslas

00:14:25.029 --> 00:14:29.629
was part of their you know work with nizza to

00:14:29.629 --> 00:14:32.789
try to make autopilot and now full self -driving

00:14:32.789 --> 00:14:38.220
um A little more safe, I guess. Driver monitoring

00:14:38.220 --> 00:14:40.720
that can detect when the driver isn't paying

00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:43.200
attention to the road because you have to be

00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:48.500
supervising in the level two plus plus type vehicles.

00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:57.230
So it's, you know. There's just not enough information

00:14:57.230 --> 00:14:58.929
at this point in this crash, really, for us to

00:14:58.929 --> 00:15:02.070
say one way or the other. I think we could confidently

00:15:02.070 --> 00:15:04.570
say, yeah, there should have been automatic emergency

00:15:04.570 --> 00:15:07.549
braking operating in this vehicle. And it should

00:15:07.549 --> 00:15:10.049
have detected the vehicle stopped at an intersection

00:15:10.049 --> 00:15:13.789
ahead of them, even if the driver was asleep.

00:15:14.889 --> 00:15:17.769
Well, whatever else we learn about this, it's

00:15:17.769 --> 00:15:24.649
clear that the Tesla Semi development. is not

00:15:24.649 --> 00:15:30.450
a friend of third -party safety. There's no reason

00:15:30.450 --> 00:15:33.590
to think that Tesla's development of technology

00:15:33.590 --> 00:15:37.490
for these trucks is in any way focused on the

00:15:37.490 --> 00:15:42.190
safety of other people who are potentially impacted

00:15:42.190 --> 00:15:46.649
by the kinetic energy of this truck. Does the

00:15:46.649 --> 00:15:51.629
weight of the Tesla semi -cab being so much larger?

00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:55.539
are greater than the, you know, average semi

00:15:55.539 --> 00:16:00.320
because of the battery. Even if the trailer and

00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.799
everything is loaded, so the truck is, say, you

00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:06.700
know, reaches the max 80 ,000 pounds that it

00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:10.340
should be at operating. Does the, you know, does

00:16:10.340 --> 00:16:12.799
the concentration of all that weight in the cab

00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:16.799
of the semi pose an additional threat to occupants

00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:19.460
and other cars? Or is it really a matter of the

00:16:19.460 --> 00:16:22.559
entire trailer mass? I think it's the entire

00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:24.820
trailer mass. Otherwise, you'd have to look at

00:16:24.820 --> 00:16:28.000
the dynamics of the system. And I think that

00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:31.200
it's probably more controllable if you have a

00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:34.659
heavier mass in the cab. But I'm not an expert

00:16:34.659 --> 00:16:36.779
on that, so I'm speculating. Well, I just did

00:16:36.779 --> 00:16:39.720
a quick check and saw that the Tesla Semi's curb

00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:43.379
weight is roughly 20 ,000 pounds, whereas a Peterbilt

00:16:43.379 --> 00:16:46.059
cab weighs between 15 ,000 and 18 ,000 pounds.

00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:50.080
And that's the Tesla at the standard range model.

00:16:53.259 --> 00:16:56.580
But there's other issues, the wheelbase and how

00:16:56.580 --> 00:17:00.159
wide it is, how long it is. It's not a straightforward

00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:02.700
comparison. Yeah, but the thing with Tesla is

00:17:02.700 --> 00:17:04.920
they're, and I imagine the semi -customers fall

00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:08.799
for the same thing. Their whole aura, which we

00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:10.880
know is not true, is, hey, they're fully safe.

00:17:10.940 --> 00:17:13.079
They're autonomous. We have all of this detection.

00:17:13.180 --> 00:17:15.859
We'll protect you from everything possible, including

00:17:15.859 --> 00:17:19.980
bullets and guns. you know, looters and whatnot.

00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:23.259
And that kind of marketing nonsense still rolls

00:17:23.259 --> 00:17:25.740
over onto the semi. I don't know if the semi

00:17:25.740 --> 00:17:28.680
customers are like, yeah, I'll buy this EV, but

00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:32.299
it doesn't have anything else that Tesla sells

00:17:32.299 --> 00:17:35.980
and is known for. There might be an issue associated

00:17:35.980 --> 00:17:40.160
with the use of engine braking, which most conventional

00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:42.940
trucks have. And that helps you slow down the

00:17:42.940 --> 00:17:45.839
vehicle without wearing out your brakes. An EV

00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:49.509
truck. An EV truck may not have that capacity

00:17:49.509 --> 00:17:52.029
because there's no compression. And while they

00:17:52.029 --> 00:17:54.869
may do some regenerative braking, it could be

00:17:54.869 --> 00:17:57.930
that the brakes are highly stressed in this truck.

00:17:58.009 --> 00:18:02.009
And it's an issue that I'm sure NTSB will be

00:18:02.009 --> 00:18:06.309
looking into if they climb into this. You know,

00:18:06.349 --> 00:18:09.710
when you learn how to drive a truck, one of the

00:18:09.710 --> 00:18:11.529
first things you learn is that you go up a hill

00:18:11.529 --> 00:18:14.609
or you go down a hill in the same gear that you

00:18:14.609 --> 00:18:19.400
go up a hill, right? Because that makes maximum

00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:23.119
use of the compression braking. But for the EV,

00:18:23.259 --> 00:18:26.000
there's no compression braking. So you could

00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:29.000
potentially overload your ability to absorb the

00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:32.279
energy to regenerate your braking and have to

00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:34.880
use your brakes. And I don't think that's the

00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:37.480
case here because they weren't going down a hill,

00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:40.819
but it might be. It could be a factor. Yeah,

00:18:40.819 --> 00:18:43.539
I don't know. Michael, do you have a last thought

00:18:43.539 --> 00:18:46.950
on that? Yeah, I mean, you know, this is just

00:18:46.950 --> 00:18:52.349
one of dozens, if not even more than that, crashes

00:18:52.349 --> 00:18:55.250
like this that happen every year. You know, we've

00:18:55.250 --> 00:18:57.250
seen this type of crash happen going way back

00:18:57.250 --> 00:19:00.549
to, you know. Past the Tracy Morgan incident

00:19:00.549 --> 00:19:03.869
and with a Walmart truck, just know every year

00:19:03.869 --> 00:19:06.809
there are so many crashes like this where heavy

00:19:06.809 --> 00:19:09.890
truck AAB can make a significant difference if

00:19:09.890 --> 00:19:12.869
it's rolled out to the market effectively and

00:19:12.869 --> 00:19:16.630
quickly and it works when it gets there. Here,

00:19:16.730 --> 00:19:18.589
we don't really know yet whether this was effective

00:19:18.589 --> 00:19:22.309
or on or working or not. But this is happening.

00:19:22.490 --> 00:19:24.089
You know, this has been this is a problem that's

00:19:24.089 --> 00:19:26.910
been happening continuously, you know, and truck

00:19:26.910 --> 00:19:29.829
drivers. Yes, they fall asleep sometimes because,

00:19:29.869 --> 00:19:33.049
you know, oftentimes they are probably or maybe

00:19:33.049 --> 00:19:35.690
overworked. And yet here we're in an environment

00:19:35.690 --> 00:19:37.869
where we have Congress pushing for things like

00:19:37.869 --> 00:19:42.349
extended hours for truckers pushing back against

00:19:42.349 --> 00:19:45.369
other safety requirements. We have, you know.

00:19:46.089 --> 00:19:48.609
our federal government failing to get the automatic

00:19:48.609 --> 00:19:51.650
emergency braking standard for these trucks into

00:19:51.650 --> 00:19:53.849
play fast enough to prevent these things. Even

00:19:53.849 --> 00:19:56.369
though I think Volvo has been advertising AEB

00:19:56.369 --> 00:20:00.170
and trucks for, well, going on 20 years now.

00:20:00.329 --> 00:20:02.430
I mean, this isn't like it's something new that

00:20:02.430 --> 00:20:04.410
we're forcing the industry to adopt. It's a technology

00:20:04.410 --> 00:20:07.430
that's been around and it needs to be in every

00:20:07.430 --> 00:20:09.710
truck on the road now to prevent exactly this

00:20:09.710 --> 00:20:15.220
type of. And yet the priorities rather than safety

00:20:15.220 --> 00:20:20.779
for legislation and for some of the focus of

00:20:20.779 --> 00:20:23.680
the administration right now are, you know, allowing

00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:26.200
truckers to drive even more hours and increasing

00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:28.640
the weight of these trucks and all these other

00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:33.720
things that increase some of the economic underpinnings

00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:35.720
of the industry, but do little or nothing for

00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:38.559
safety. Well, I know it does something for safety.

00:20:39.329 --> 00:20:42.130
One of the greatest rap songs of all time. Come

00:20:42.130 --> 00:20:44.769
on. What's one of the greatest early rap songs

00:20:44.769 --> 00:20:46.829
of all time? Anybody? Fred, come on. The greatest

00:20:46.829 --> 00:20:48.009
early rap song of all time. I know you're a huge

00:20:48.009 --> 00:20:50.789
hip -hop fan. Come on. I mean, are we talking

00:20:50.789 --> 00:20:53.170
Public Enemy? You could do Public Enemy. That's

00:20:53.170 --> 00:20:54.390
not the correct answer today. Are we going even

00:20:54.390 --> 00:20:56.670
further back? Yeah, let's go further back. Let's

00:20:56.670 --> 00:20:59.710
go to the early days. What was the Freaks Come

00:20:59.710 --> 00:21:02.329
Out at Night? Oh, that was a good one by Houdini,

00:21:02.410 --> 00:21:04.710
but that's not the answer we're going for. We're

00:21:04.710 --> 00:21:08.660
going for White Lines by Melly Mel. Because there

00:21:08.660 --> 00:21:11.720
is a great, fascinating article in the Wall Street

00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:14.460
Journal, we'll link to, about white lines on

00:21:14.460 --> 00:21:17.799
the road. And they've always existed as long

00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:19.779
as I've existed, and I never even thought about

00:21:19.779 --> 00:21:22.420
that white line on the right side. Well, I'm

00:21:22.420 --> 00:21:24.259
going to quote from this article. In the 1950s,

00:21:24.259 --> 00:21:26.259
around the time Jonas Salk cracked the polio

00:21:26.259 --> 00:21:30.940
vaccine, fake news, a metallurgist named John

00:21:30.940 --> 00:21:33.359
V. N. Doerr became the champion of a different

00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:35.400
lifesaver, a white line on the right side of

00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:38.539
the road. For years, Doar told anyone who would

00:21:38.539 --> 00:21:41.079
listen and everyone who wouldn't about his simple

00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:43.839
way of making highways safer. A line on the side

00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:45.920
of the road, he argued, would give drivers somewhere

00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:48.680
to aim their eyes at night other than oncoming

00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:51.180
headlights. It was both cheap and incredibly

00:21:51.180 --> 00:21:53.039
effective, which made it a brilliant investment.

00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:55.579
Over time, his revolutionary stripe of paint

00:21:55.579 --> 00:21:57.599
would reach billions of people and guide drivers

00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:00.160
across the planet. To this day, you depend on

00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.660
it without even knowing anything about it. Now,

00:22:02.660 --> 00:22:06.119
I... I never even thought that this was a thing.

00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:09.400
Like, I just assumed that was always a way just

00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:13.960
to delineate roads. So this is, you know, it's

00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:16.200
fascinating. This guy had to fight, you know,

00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:18.819
people, you know, local counties and governments

00:22:18.819 --> 00:22:22.579
to convince them to put this line down and show,

00:22:22.700 --> 00:22:25.799
hey, this is how many lives we've saved. Yeah,

00:22:25.819 --> 00:22:28.579
I think that was one of the more striking things

00:22:28.579 --> 00:22:32.869
about the article is. just how much work he had

00:22:32.869 --> 00:22:36.329
to put in to get this, what seems like a very

00:22:36.329 --> 00:22:41.170
obvious safety change that needed to go into

00:22:41.170 --> 00:22:44.789
place. I mean, he literally had to have, you

00:22:44.789 --> 00:22:49.329
know, I think Connecticut tested it for him after

00:22:49.329 --> 00:22:52.029
a lot of work. And he used that data to convince

00:22:52.029 --> 00:22:54.829
other states that they needed to take a look

00:22:54.829 --> 00:22:58.349
at this. I'm kind of a right. right side of the

00:22:58.349 --> 00:23:02.009
road line rider myself so i i i wasn't aware

00:23:02.009 --> 00:23:04.329
you know there's obviously a difference on roads

00:23:04.329 --> 00:23:06.849
that have it in roads that don't um when you're

00:23:06.849 --> 00:23:08.970
driving on you know obviously a lot of the smaller

00:23:08.970 --> 00:23:12.730
um country type roads curvy roads and things

00:23:12.730 --> 00:23:14.730
don't have the white lines and it makes a huge

00:23:14.730 --> 00:23:17.130
difference because it's you have to be a lot

00:23:17.130 --> 00:23:19.009
more focused on where the shoulder of the road

00:23:19.009 --> 00:23:23.450
is um and you know my experience is that some

00:23:23.450 --> 00:23:26.970
folks don't do quite as well sticking to their

00:23:26.970 --> 00:23:29.490
lanes on on unmarked roads especially where there's

00:23:29.490 --> 00:23:32.289
no center line but um also if there are no outside

00:23:32.289 --> 00:23:35.609
lines that make it easier to hug that safer side

00:23:35.609 --> 00:23:39.809
of the road um then then you know it's it's it's

00:23:39.809 --> 00:23:41.289
something like anthony that i've always taken

00:23:41.289 --> 00:23:43.009
for granted this happened what and it wasn't

00:23:43.009 --> 00:23:48.549
in the 1962 is uh 50s he started doing this But

00:23:48.549 --> 00:23:52.890
I like how you took something I took advantage

00:23:52.890 --> 00:23:56.569
of, like Anthony. Oh, I like that. We're just

00:23:56.569 --> 00:23:58.809
saying about the same age. No, I know, but I'm

00:23:58.809 --> 00:24:01.069
just saying, never mind. So, Fred, you learned

00:24:01.069 --> 00:24:04.470
how to drive on a horse. So what was this like

00:24:04.470 --> 00:24:09.210
for you? For me? Yeah. Well, they've always been

00:24:09.210 --> 00:24:13.349
there since I was driving. Because, yeah, the

00:24:13.349 --> 00:24:15.710
horses respond to it. It helps them get home.

00:24:15.930 --> 00:24:19.250
Oh, good old Dobbin, you know? A good old worker

00:24:19.250 --> 00:24:22.710
and a good old pal. But I just wanted to say

00:24:22.710 --> 00:24:25.369
that there's an excellent book about institutional

00:24:25.369 --> 00:24:29.230
resistance to needed reform called Longitude

00:24:29.230 --> 00:24:34.710
by a woman named Dava Sobel. It's all about the

00:24:34.710 --> 00:24:37.690
development of the technology that was necessary

00:24:37.690 --> 00:24:40.049
to keep ships from running into reefs and things

00:24:40.049 --> 00:24:42.450
like that. Excellent book. I highly recommend

00:24:42.450 --> 00:24:46.569
it. Longitude, Dava Sobel. Okay. It's on my list.

00:24:46.670 --> 00:24:50.089
Oh, you mean latitudes, that one? No, longitude.

00:24:50.369 --> 00:24:52.710
Longitude, okay. All right, I'll find it. That

00:24:52.710 --> 00:24:55.950
sounds pretty good. But yeah, so what my unfortunate

00:24:55.950 --> 00:24:59.509
takeaway from this is that this guy spent a long

00:24:59.509 --> 00:25:02.109
time proving this. So do we have to go on the

00:25:02.109 --> 00:25:05.509
road and prove to people that drunk driving kills?

00:25:05.970 --> 00:25:09.970
I mean, you literally kind of have to do, right?

00:25:10.029 --> 00:25:14.970
I mean, for every time. NHTSA passes a standard

00:25:14.970 --> 00:25:17.650
that's going to raise safety. I mean, they have

00:25:17.650 --> 00:25:21.490
to show that there are significant benefits to

00:25:21.490 --> 00:25:25.230
adding that technology and that those far outweigh

00:25:25.230 --> 00:25:28.289
the costs of manufacturers putting into play

00:25:28.289 --> 00:25:30.269
in this situation. It would be, you know, you'd

00:25:30.269 --> 00:25:33.410
be comparing the lives saved and injuries prevented

00:25:33.410 --> 00:25:36.809
to the cost of putting paint on the roads, essentially.

00:25:38.430 --> 00:25:42.299
So, yeah. I mean, before before these rules can

00:25:42.299 --> 00:25:45.200
make it to final stage and as they work through,

00:25:45.259 --> 00:25:49.319
you know, OIRA, OMB, that type of stuff where

00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:51.720
they actually require these cost benefit analysis

00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:55.140
to be done on federal regulation, you kind of

00:25:55.140 --> 00:25:58.019
have to show. Yes. You know, that's what that's

00:25:58.019 --> 00:25:59.680
what kind of struck me about this is that even

00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:01.980
way back then, this guy going around the states

00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:04.539
and to the federal government was was literally

00:26:04.539 --> 00:26:10.190
having to. prove that this kind of obvious solution

00:26:10.190 --> 00:26:14.250
would work in order to get the change done. Look

00:26:14.250 --> 00:26:16.230
at what's happening now with automatic emergency

00:26:16.230 --> 00:26:18.950
braking. Right after fighting through all of

00:26:18.950 --> 00:26:22.829
that, NHTSA came out with a rule that is technically

00:26:22.829 --> 00:26:25.529
possible. And what happened? Well, immediately,

00:26:25.809 --> 00:26:30.869
the industry association sued to stop the implementation

00:26:30.869 --> 00:26:33.369
of that rule. At the same time, as they're using

00:26:33.369 --> 00:26:36.240
the existence of that rule, as evidence of how

00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:38.160
advanced technology is going to make everybody

00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:42.059
safer. So there is always huge institutional

00:26:42.059 --> 00:26:48.180
resistance to innovation. Never fails. And it's

00:26:48.180 --> 00:26:50.779
amazing that modern cars rely on that white line

00:26:50.779 --> 00:26:53.519
for automatic lane keeping and things of that

00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:56.019
nature. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's critical to the

00:26:56.019 --> 00:26:58.460
operation of automated systems. Right. That's

00:26:58.460 --> 00:27:01.039
simple. So, hey, boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen,

00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:04.130
White Lines by Grandmaster Mellie Mell. It has

00:27:04.130 --> 00:27:06.230
nothing to do with roads, but it's a great song.

00:27:07.190 --> 00:27:10.309
Let's jump into Gaslight. It's a, you know, who

00:27:10.309 --> 00:27:13.210
wants to kick off the Gaslight Wars? Anybody?

00:27:13.410 --> 00:27:16.789
Well, let me just kick it off because mine's

00:27:16.789 --> 00:27:21.329
related actually to the whole heavy truck developments.

00:27:21.670 --> 00:27:24.190
So there's a company named Aurora, a good friend,

00:27:24.349 --> 00:27:31.609
who are developing self -driving trucks. They

00:27:31.609 --> 00:27:33.349
are the same company that put them on the road

00:27:33.349 --> 00:27:37.170
and had it withdrawn about two weeks later by

00:27:37.170 --> 00:27:39.630
the company that actually manufactured the hardware

00:27:39.630 --> 00:27:42.269
that they were using on the road. But anyway...

00:27:42.269 --> 00:27:44.190
They didn't have it withdrawn. They said, we

00:27:44.190 --> 00:27:46.950
need a safety driver in the vehicle. Isn't that

00:27:46.950 --> 00:27:49.509
what they did? Yeah, which is the same thing.

00:27:49.549 --> 00:27:53.049
Yeah, okay. Okay, so anyway, there's been an

00:27:53.049 --> 00:27:55.430
article recently published called Edge Case Conducts

00:27:55.430 --> 00:27:57.670
an Independent Comprehensive Assessment for Aurora.

00:27:58.529 --> 00:28:01.089
Setting a new bar for autonomous vehicle safety

00:28:01.089 --> 00:28:04.849
assurance. Note to listeners, that's not a very

00:28:04.849 --> 00:28:08.289
high bar, but here we go. So there's a lot of

00:28:08.289 --> 00:28:11.170
problems with this, and it starts by saying,

00:28:11.230 --> 00:28:13.650
after a three -month audit, edge case confirmed

00:28:13.650 --> 00:28:17.009
Aurora's safety case is well -structured, substantively

00:28:17.009 --> 00:28:19.789
aligned with industry best practices, and actively

00:28:19.789 --> 00:28:22.690
maintained. So we're already running into a problem

00:28:22.690 --> 00:28:25.809
because there are no rules for industry best

00:28:25.809 --> 00:28:30.980
practices. The article goes on to say, Edge case

00:28:30.980 --> 00:28:33.640
evaluated the structural organization of the

00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:36.579
safety case and claims measuring Aurora's work

00:28:36.579 --> 00:28:39.220
against federal safety elements. By the way,

00:28:39.220 --> 00:28:42.180
there are none. Outlined by the National Highway

00:28:42.180 --> 00:28:45.319
Traffic Safety Administration and industry standards

00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:49.980
and best practices such as UL 4600, ISO 26262,

00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:56.450
AVSC CSE, and more. Well. UL 4600 is not a reference

00:28:56.450 --> 00:28:58.230
for selective review. You're not allowed to do

00:28:58.230 --> 00:29:01.849
cherry picking when you go through that and take

00:29:01.849 --> 00:29:03.869
the elements that you like and ignore the rest.

00:29:04.769 --> 00:29:09.490
NHTSA has no AD specific standards. ISO 26262

00:29:09.490 --> 00:29:12.569
is not a performance standard. And in fact, it

00:29:12.569 --> 00:29:14.990
has no affirmative definition of safety. All

00:29:14.990 --> 00:29:17.869
it says is that, one of the things it says is

00:29:17.869 --> 00:29:20.390
that safety is the absence of unreasonable risk,

00:29:20.569 --> 00:29:23.170
which leaves it up to the manufacturer to determine

00:29:23.170 --> 00:29:26.109
what's reasonable. And if they think everything

00:29:26.109 --> 00:29:30.349
is okay, then they satisfy the criterion. The

00:29:30.349 --> 00:29:34.750
AVSC CSE is not a standard at all. It's a make

00:29:34.750 --> 00:29:37.410
-believe standard that they're using to try to

00:29:37.410 --> 00:29:40.230
pretend that there's industry consensus around

00:29:40.230 --> 00:29:46.369
AV safety. There is not. Going on to quote, reviewing

00:29:46.369 --> 00:29:49.109
the structure of the entire safety case while

00:29:49.109 --> 00:29:51.430
using a sampling approach to evaluate the claims

00:29:51.430 --> 00:29:55.009
effectively. So what does sampling approach mean?

00:29:55.490 --> 00:29:59.390
Cherry picking? I think so. But the structure

00:29:59.390 --> 00:30:01.410
of the safety case is important, but the evaluation

00:30:01.410 --> 00:30:04.509
criteria and the independence of the evaluators

00:30:04.509 --> 00:30:07.849
is at least as important. You know, how do you

00:30:07.849 --> 00:30:10.829
use this information? If you have a framework

00:30:10.829 --> 00:30:14.289
that's reasonable, that's great. But do you have

00:30:14.289 --> 00:30:20.029
the integrity to really look at that and do an

00:30:20.029 --> 00:30:23.269
independent best case analysis? And the fact

00:30:23.269 --> 00:30:26.190
that the Aurora CEO, Chris Urmson, is on the

00:30:26.190 --> 00:30:29.390
board of selectors of edge case calls into question

00:30:29.390 --> 00:30:31.490
their independence. Michael, you had some thoughts

00:30:31.490 --> 00:30:35.789
on that. Yeah, I mean, you know, just in general,

00:30:35.849 --> 00:30:38.009
in any type of practice, I mean, this is a kind

00:30:38.009 --> 00:30:40.710
of a legal principle, I guess, more so than in

00:30:40.710 --> 00:30:44.589
other industries. But avoiding a con, I mean.

00:30:45.470 --> 00:30:49.569
Having an independent review of a company's safety

00:30:49.569 --> 00:30:55.230
case requires, I would say, that the CEO of the

00:30:55.230 --> 00:30:57.430
company being reviewed not be on the board of

00:30:57.430 --> 00:31:00.349
directors of the reviewer. I think that's pretty

00:31:00.349 --> 00:31:04.730
obvious. And, you know, what you're trying to

00:31:04.730 --> 00:31:08.650
avoid is not only impropriety on its surface,

00:31:08.769 --> 00:31:11.890
right? Interference with the process of evaluating.

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:16.119
the AV and all of that, but you don't even want

00:31:16.119 --> 00:31:18.240
to look like it. You don't even want the appearance

00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:20.660
of impropriety to take place. And here, I mean,

00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:23.900
it's incredibly difficult. And we are a very

00:31:23.900 --> 00:31:25.799
strong proponent of independent evaluations.

00:31:26.500 --> 00:31:28.619
We had the guys from Edgecase Research on here

00:31:28.619 --> 00:31:31.940
to talk about that. I love that idea of having

00:31:31.940 --> 00:31:35.359
independent evaluations of these autonomous vehicle

00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:38.549
systems before they're allowed. frankly, to test,

00:31:38.769 --> 00:31:40.970
but certainly before they are able to deploy

00:31:40.970 --> 00:31:42.970
and deploy commercially where they're impacting

00:31:42.970 --> 00:31:47.970
other road users. And you just can't get around

00:31:47.970 --> 00:31:51.650
the conflict of interest here. Thank you. And

00:31:51.650 --> 00:31:53.890
I also noted that the press release never uses

00:31:53.890 --> 00:31:56.470
the word audit. They only use the word review,

00:31:56.670 --> 00:32:01.529
which seems odd to me, suspicious. They said,

00:32:01.549 --> 00:32:03.470
you know, go to edge case for additional details.

00:32:03.690 --> 00:32:06.740
So I went to the edge case website. There's nothing

00:32:06.740 --> 00:32:08.980
there. There's nothing to see about how they

00:32:08.980 --> 00:32:12.779
did the audit or whether it was an audit or exactly

00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:17.779
what the heck it was all about. So. Barring any

00:32:17.779 --> 00:32:19.940
additional information that comes flying across

00:32:19.940 --> 00:32:24.220
the transom, I'm giving Gaslight my Gaslight

00:32:24.220 --> 00:32:27.059
nomination goes to Aurora this week. That's pretty

00:32:27.059 --> 00:32:30.900
good. I like it. Michael, what do you got? I

00:32:30.900 --> 00:32:34.690
have a short, quick one. You know, NITS administrator

00:32:34.690 --> 00:32:37.190
Jonathan Morrison was in Nashville talking this

00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:42.329
week. And my real beef is that he is, you know,

00:32:42.410 --> 00:32:45.349
parroting what the industry is saying without

00:32:45.349 --> 00:32:49.109
really talking about some of the real safety

00:32:49.109 --> 00:32:51.329
concerns that involve automated vehicles that

00:32:51.329 --> 00:32:54.480
don't really apply to humans. So he says. Automated

00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:56.420
vehicles provide a great deal of promise to enhance

00:32:56.420 --> 00:32:58.920
safety and mobility. These are vehicles that

00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:00.779
if they're operating appropriately, they're never

00:33:00.779 --> 00:33:02.559
going to drive drunk, they're never going to

00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:05.240
drive distracted, and they should obey all the

00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:07.680
speed limits, right? He goes on to say, we'll

00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:10.099
use our enforcement authority, which is recalls,

00:33:10.099 --> 00:33:12.140
to address these issues because NHTSA doesn't

00:33:12.140 --> 00:33:14.960
seem to have any plans to put actual minimum

00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:16.880
safety standards around these vehicles' operations

00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:21.319
into place at the moment. Hopefully that happens

00:33:21.319 --> 00:33:25.140
at some point in the future. I'm giving the gaslight

00:33:25.140 --> 00:33:28.819
here because this continued harping about what

00:33:28.819 --> 00:33:33.059
autonomous vehicles don't do is kind of stupid

00:33:33.059 --> 00:33:34.779
to me, right? Of course, they're not going to

00:33:34.779 --> 00:33:39.599
drive drunk. They can't drink, you know? Distraction.

00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:42.660
Yeah, I don't know, man. I might say that those

00:33:42.660 --> 00:33:44.640
Waymo vehicles in San Francisco were a little

00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:47.440
distracted this week, but not not in the technically

00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:49.900
the human way of distraction. But, you know,

00:33:49.900 --> 00:33:52.579
we're seeing all of these issues with, you know,

00:33:52.579 --> 00:33:55.700
driving over fireworks. What human would do that?

00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:59.400
I mean, a really bad driver might, but a half

00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:02.160
decent half ass driver who's scared for their

00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:04.779
own safety is not going to go driving over fireworks.

00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:10.820
So while, yes, human. have their problems, autonomous

00:34:10.820 --> 00:34:15.019
vehicles do too. And not bringing that up and

00:34:15.019 --> 00:34:19.239
continuing just to promote the industry's lines

00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:22.320
about how great this technology is. For that,

00:34:22.420 --> 00:34:24.900
Jonathan Morrison gets my gaslight of the week.

00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:27.199
I like that one. I think we should update that

00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:30.699
to humans will never drive with malware. Humans

00:34:30.699 --> 00:34:32.760
will never try to reboot in the middle of the

00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:35.079
road. Humans will continue to drive if they lose

00:34:35.079 --> 00:34:39.789
cell service. Anthony, reboot yourself. Get with

00:34:39.789 --> 00:34:41.909
the program. Okay, that was good because Michael,

00:34:42.210 --> 00:34:44.650
I had that whole section highlighted. I liked

00:34:44.650 --> 00:34:47.090
it. I'm going to go a little different. I'm going

00:34:47.090 --> 00:34:51.889
to go to China Fear again. There's a Chinese

00:34:51.889 --> 00:34:55.869
LIDAR maker that, of course, is being accused

00:34:55.869 --> 00:35:00.389
by, I believe, the foundation for the defense

00:35:00.389 --> 00:35:04.610
of democracies, which is... That's just straight

00:35:04.610 --> 00:35:07.190
out of a Joe McCarthy hearing. It's ridiculous.

00:35:07.670 --> 00:35:10.869
Where they don't want this Chinese LIDAR in U

00:35:10.869 --> 00:35:13.210
.S. vehicles because, I'm going to quote, the

00:35:13.210 --> 00:35:17.409
data is so sensitive and it's so precise that

00:35:17.409 --> 00:35:19.489
it could be weaponized by a hostile foreign power

00:35:19.489 --> 00:35:22.050
if they ever wanted to target our infrastructure.

00:35:22.510 --> 00:35:24.809
This guy named Singleton, who's part of this

00:35:24.809 --> 00:35:27.610
crazy little group, said, questions about how

00:35:27.610 --> 00:35:31.449
and where Chinese -made LIDAR sensors are being

00:35:31.449 --> 00:35:34.320
used come along. broader concerns about chinese

00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:36.099
government oversight and the potential for the

00:35:36.099 --> 00:35:38.400
government to access data collected by chinese

00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:41.800
companies okay so you don't want chinese lidar

00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:44.980
in your cars i get it because oh the lidar lidar

00:35:44.980 --> 00:35:47.980
is just so good well what's going to stop anybody

00:35:47.980 --> 00:35:51.139
from walking to a secure area or any area with

00:35:51.139 --> 00:35:54.710
their goddamn iphone It doesn't matter who makes

00:35:54.710 --> 00:35:57.030
the LIDAR. It doesn't matter if you you want

00:35:57.030 --> 00:35:59.429
to spy, you want to collect this data. Just go

00:35:59.429 --> 00:36:02.550
use your phone. Oh, there we go. This is the

00:36:02.550 --> 00:36:05.409
same. You have LIDAR on your phone. Newer iPhones

00:36:05.409 --> 00:36:08.070
do. I have LIDAR on my iPad. Yeah, it's cool.

00:36:08.110 --> 00:36:13.510
I've done scans. I mean, I know that there's

00:36:13.510 --> 00:36:17.469
they're struggling hard to make China a bad guy

00:36:17.469 --> 00:36:19.230
here. And I think in some circumstances, China

00:36:19.230 --> 00:36:20.969
might be a bad guy when it comes to copyright.

00:36:22.330 --> 00:36:28.309
But I don't know that LIDAR, I don't know, this

00:36:28.309 --> 00:36:31.369
seems to be overblown, right? I mean, there is

00:36:31.369 --> 00:36:34.630
LIDAR going into U .S. made cars that is looking

00:36:34.630 --> 00:36:37.650
at everything you do and is conducting the same

00:36:37.650 --> 00:36:41.730
type of scans of its environment as the Chinese

00:36:41.730 --> 00:36:45.510
LIDAR would, right? And so really the restriction

00:36:45.510 --> 00:36:48.510
here needs to be around whoever is receiving

00:36:48.510 --> 00:36:53.099
that data. preventing them from passing it on

00:36:53.099 --> 00:36:58.280
to Chinese authorities, right? Not the tech itself.

00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:01.260
They're trying to make this fear that, though,

00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:03.559
they'll have a perfect map of our infrastructure

00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:07.860
for targeting and invasion. And it makes me think

00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:09.820
that maybe Fred – Don't they already have that?

00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:12.219
That's what I want to get to, Mr. Perkins, who

00:37:12.219 --> 00:37:15.440
formerly worked as a missile engineer. Isn't

00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.820
a satellite image from like the 1980s like that

00:37:18.820 --> 00:37:21.329
level of quality? Isn't that good enough to be

00:37:21.329 --> 00:37:25.090
like, I want the bomb here? If somebody wants

00:37:25.090 --> 00:37:27.010
to start a war, there's plenty of information

00:37:27.010 --> 00:37:30.550
around that would let them start the war in whatever

00:37:30.550 --> 00:37:34.309
terms they want, period. Meanwhile, we have Chinese

00:37:34.309 --> 00:37:36.909
-made LIDAR sensors running around our streets

00:37:36.909 --> 00:37:43.039
now, right? I mean, wasn't that the issue? It's

00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:46.900
nonsense. I don't understand how this moves.

00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:48.320
I mean, it's not like you're going to go out

00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:50.320
and collect and take all those that are already

00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:53.840
there off the road. Well, it's just silly. It's

00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:57.000
just silly. It is silly. So this brings me to

00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:59.000
the next song for our auto safety playlist this

00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:02.500
week. Let's Start a War by the band Fear. Eh,

00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:05.639
no? Okay. So this week's scoring. I've never

00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:09.469
heard that. You know how it's a great song. So

00:38:09.469 --> 00:38:12.130
this week's scoring, I mean, clearly I was going

00:38:12.130 --> 00:38:13.949
to win because we all got animated about that.

00:38:14.010 --> 00:38:16.710
But I'm honestly distracted by Fred's beard.

00:38:16.849 --> 00:38:21.329
It is so perfectly trimmed and neat. And it makes

00:38:21.329 --> 00:38:25.809
me jealous. All natural. Well, mine is not. I

00:38:25.809 --> 00:38:27.849
went to the Turkish beard clinic to get mine.

00:38:28.309 --> 00:38:31.630
So for that, you win. You win this week, Fred.

00:38:32.409 --> 00:38:34.449
Thank you very much. I thought you went to the

00:38:34.449 --> 00:38:37.750
barber school to get yours done. I could be wrong.

00:38:37.849 --> 00:38:41.570
You could be. But anyway, let me slide into the

00:38:41.570 --> 00:38:43.510
towel right now because it follows on to what

00:38:43.510 --> 00:38:46.050
Michael was talking about. Towel away. If you

00:38:46.050 --> 00:38:48.829
don't mind. Okay, so everybody's been saying,

00:38:49.030 --> 00:38:52.110
you know, AVs are going to be good and they never

00:38:52.110 --> 00:38:53.889
drive, they never drink, they never have sex

00:38:53.889 --> 00:38:56.349
when they're operating, all these great things.

00:38:56.789 --> 00:39:00.550
But I've been wondering, what are the numbers

00:39:00.550 --> 00:39:03.429
associated with that? So I put a projection together

00:39:03.429 --> 00:39:07.260
of... what might happen over the next 25 years.

00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:12.300
And a lot of assumptions, nominal crash rate

00:39:12.300 --> 00:39:16.500
is what it is now, unless it's improved dramatically.

00:39:16.900 --> 00:39:21.800
So the AV crash rate I'm using is 92 % better

00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:23.920
than humans, right? Because that's a number that

00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:28.320
we've seen floated. And the AV growth rate is

00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:32.440
39 % year over year, which ultimately results

00:39:32.440 --> 00:39:38.889
in 10 million. AVs over the next 25 years. That's

00:39:38.889 --> 00:39:41.150
pretty aggressive, but I think that that is probably

00:39:41.150 --> 00:39:44.250
as high as any of the AV projections are used

00:39:44.250 --> 00:39:47.730
internally, because that's a lot of cars. And

00:39:47.730 --> 00:39:50.889
the overall growth rate for vehicles is growing

00:39:50.889 --> 00:39:53.889
a little bit. Average age is 12 years. Average

00:39:53.889 --> 00:39:57.510
age of AVs I'm using is five years. And that's

00:39:57.510 --> 00:39:59.389
just because of due to rapid evolution of the

00:39:59.389 --> 00:40:04.030
technology. Who knows? But anyway, if I look

00:40:04.030 --> 00:40:06.670
at all this and I project it out over 25 years,

00:40:06.710 --> 00:40:11.030
what I find is that a tiny improvement in mainstream

00:40:11.030 --> 00:40:13.789
automotive safety would be much more effective

00:40:13.789 --> 00:40:17.849
at saving lives than AV proliferation. And the

00:40:17.849 --> 00:40:22.389
lives lost by AV over the next 25 years with

00:40:22.389 --> 00:40:25.949
this 92 % crash rate reduction would be about

00:40:25.949 --> 00:40:31.980
382. 382, okay? It's nothing to sneeze at, saving

00:40:31.980 --> 00:40:36.980
382 or losing only 382 lives. That's still a

00:40:36.980 --> 00:40:39.639
lot of people. But if you compare that to the

00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:43.400
lives that would be lost by a nominal tech in

00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:48.260
cars writ large, that number is more like 1 .1

00:40:48.260 --> 00:40:52.739
million who would be dying in those cars. Now,

00:40:52.739 --> 00:40:56.599
let's assume that you can take some of that technology.

00:40:57.309 --> 00:41:01.170
that is saving all these lives in the AVs and

00:41:01.170 --> 00:41:05.769
migrate it over to conventional cars. And what

00:41:05.769 --> 00:41:08.489
might that look like? Well, if you assume that

00:41:08.489 --> 00:41:14.269
you can take this 90%, 92%, which by the way,

00:41:14.289 --> 00:41:17.969
nobody can really support, but it's a reference

00:41:17.969 --> 00:41:20.570
number anyway. But if you take that and assume

00:41:20.570 --> 00:41:22.809
that you can take parts of that technology, move

00:41:22.809 --> 00:41:25.570
it over to conventional cars, you could end up

00:41:25.570 --> 00:41:29.150
with a 50 % reduction from the AV tech migration

00:41:29.150 --> 00:41:31.829
in the crash rate associated with conventional

00:41:31.829 --> 00:41:35.889
cars. Does that sound reasonable? It's a number

00:41:35.889 --> 00:41:38.909
that, you know, if you get it at 92 % for one

00:41:38.909 --> 00:41:42.030
kind of car, you could probably get it at 50

00:41:42.030 --> 00:41:46.789
% in all other cars. If you do that, then the

00:41:46.789 --> 00:41:49.389
lives that you would save relative to the baseline

00:41:49.389 --> 00:41:52.530
by the rapid safety introduction, remember, 50

00:41:52.530 --> 00:41:55.820
% rather than 92%, It's about half a million.

00:41:56.460 --> 00:42:00.900
So there's no reason why the government should

00:42:00.900 --> 00:42:05.219
put additional emphasis on AV proliferation as

00:42:05.219 --> 00:42:09.280
a way of saving lives compared to injecting technology

00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:12.780
that's known today or that might be achieved

00:42:12.780 --> 00:42:18.179
from migration from AV technology into conventional

00:42:18.179 --> 00:42:21.219
cars. There's a lot of things that are held in

00:42:21.219 --> 00:42:24.889
abeyance right now by the government. Automatic

00:42:24.889 --> 00:42:28.469
alcohol detection, the automatic emergency braking.

00:42:29.110 --> 00:42:30.789
Michael, what are some of the other technologies

00:42:30.789 --> 00:42:34.309
that are out there that could be put into conventional

00:42:34.309 --> 00:42:37.150
vehicles that is not being put into them? I think

00:42:37.150 --> 00:42:39.389
active intelligent speed assistance would be

00:42:39.389 --> 00:42:44.829
an awesome one. So go ahead. No, getting that

00:42:44.829 --> 00:42:47.250
in the fleet, you know, is certainly possible

00:42:47.250 --> 00:42:50.010
today, along with good automatic emergency braking

00:42:50.010 --> 00:42:53.090
and, you know, the life savings start immediately.

00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:56.079
So if you take any one of these technologies,

00:42:56.320 --> 00:43:00.739
the effect of lifesaving would completely overwhelm

00:43:00.739 --> 00:43:03.119
the number of lives that you're going to save

00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:07.000
by putting a lot of emphasis into AV proliferation,

00:43:07.219 --> 00:43:10.400
changing laws, all this stuff that's associated

00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:16.719
with AVs. So those are the results of the study

00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:20.820
that I've got. And to me, it's overwhelming that

00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:25.059
this AV emphasis. It's just a diversion, and

00:43:25.059 --> 00:43:28.940
it's a new sandbox for people to play in. But

00:43:28.940 --> 00:43:31.599
there should be no public interest. There should

00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:35.119
be no public legislative interest in making things

00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:39.739
safer for the AVs in preference to improving

00:43:39.739 --> 00:43:43.880
the conventional technology that could be used

00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:47.219
to save lives in conventional cars. Does that

00:43:47.219 --> 00:43:49.260
make sense? Any questions, gentlemen? I have

00:43:49.260 --> 00:43:51.940
a question. So you said in how many years before

00:43:51.940 --> 00:43:55.739
there's 10 million AVs in your assumption? Well,

00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:59.039
I assume that... 25 years? Yeah, 25 years to

00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:01.079
get to 10 million. And the number 10 million,

00:44:01.179 --> 00:44:06.059
by the way, is the approximate number of vehicles

00:44:06.059 --> 00:44:09.699
that are currently involved in rideshare. Okay.

00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:11.639
So I assume that they're going after that whole

00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:15.139
market. Right. Okay. So 10 million AVs. How many

00:44:15.139 --> 00:44:19.889
cars currently drive in U .S. roads? 300 million.

00:44:20.269 --> 00:44:25.050
Okay. So, you know, this is less than 10 % would

00:44:25.050 --> 00:44:27.730
be there. And you're saying that if we put in,

00:44:27.789 --> 00:44:31.349
you know, automatic emergency braking, you know,

00:44:31.349 --> 00:44:33.409
that takes, and you're saying 25 years generally

00:44:33.409 --> 00:44:36.070
takes 30 years for it to get fully into a fleet.

00:44:36.130 --> 00:44:39.449
So 25 years is pretty close for every vehicle

00:44:39.449 --> 00:44:43.360
to have AEB. Right. You know, I had other assumptions

00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:45.880
here, like the average age of the vehicles, commercial

00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:48.579
vehicles is 12 years. Right. That's a fact that

00:44:48.579 --> 00:44:51.519
we've got that there would be replacement of

00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:54.539
those over time. And, you know, the the old ones

00:44:54.539 --> 00:44:56.519
get retired, new ones come in, they've got the

00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:59.519
new technology. So that's included in their list

00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:01.360
of assumptions. Yeah, no, I'm just assuming.

00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:05.340
So go for 25 years. We say we mandate a B today,

00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:10.010
25 years. Well, I'm making up, but close to 90

00:45:10.010 --> 00:45:12.610
% of all vehicles on the road will have AEB at

00:45:12.610 --> 00:45:16.690
that point. And we're talking, you know, AEB

00:45:16.690 --> 00:45:18.929
alone, do you have an idea of roughly what that

00:45:18.929 --> 00:45:24.690
would save in terms of lives? I did not calculate

00:45:24.690 --> 00:45:28.230
that. Michael, you got a handy number? You know,

00:45:28.329 --> 00:45:32.389
NHTSA had numbers when it introduced its automatic

00:45:32.389 --> 00:45:36.300
emergency braking rule. It was about... 360 lives

00:45:36.300 --> 00:45:39.380
a year and 24 ,000 injuries annually. I think

00:45:39.380 --> 00:45:43.199
those are incredibly conservative and represent

00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:46.320
the technology that was available at the time.

00:45:46.460 --> 00:45:48.380
I think, you know, automatic emergency braking

00:45:48.380 --> 00:45:52.380
can certainly improve. And, you know, I think

00:45:52.380 --> 00:45:54.699
it should right now, essentially, they're setting

00:45:54.699 --> 00:45:58.179
it up to recognize vehicles from the rear and

00:45:58.179 --> 00:46:01.380
hopefully recognize pedestrians, motorcyclists,

00:46:01.539 --> 00:46:05.320
bicyclists, that type of thing. What about recognizing,

00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:11.619
you know, side impact? And those types of situations.

00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:13.699
There are a lot of crash situations where braking

00:46:13.699 --> 00:46:17.119
can really be effective. And I don't think we're

00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:19.800
not there yet with the technology. But even with

00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:22.800
the base level automatic emergency braking we

00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:28.420
have now, NHTSA thinks that 360 lives and 24

00:46:28.420 --> 00:46:30.460
,000 injuries every year. So that's actually

00:46:30.460 --> 00:46:33.480
a perfect. But take that number just for comparison.

00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:36.840
That number is about the same as the total number

00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:43.860
of deaths associated with the AV. Over 25 years.

00:46:44.039 --> 00:46:47.780
Over 25 years. That's what I want to say. And

00:46:47.780 --> 00:46:50.639
that's just AV, right? That doesn't include,

00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:53.880
you know, if we bring in active intelligent speed

00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:56.840
assistance, alcohol impairment detection, really

00:46:56.840 --> 00:46:59.199
good driver monitoring to prevent distracted

00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:02.949
driving. I mean, I think. The numbers add up

00:47:02.949 --> 00:47:07.750
quick in favor of putting this technology into

00:47:07.750 --> 00:47:09.309
conventional vehicles that Americans are going

00:47:09.309 --> 00:47:12.010
to be driving for the next few decades. Those

00:47:12.010 --> 00:47:15.070
vehicles are not leaving the road, human -driven

00:47:15.070 --> 00:47:17.730
vehicles. Yeah, so you're saying – real quick,

00:47:17.789 --> 00:47:20.070
I just did a quick calculation. So we're saying

00:47:20.070 --> 00:47:22.849
very conservatively we don't agree with NHTSA's

00:47:22.849 --> 00:47:27.050
assessment for years ago, AEB, 360 lives. saved

00:47:27.050 --> 00:47:30.829
per year. I think that's the very smallest number

00:47:30.829 --> 00:47:32.829
you'll see. Bottom of the barrel. I mean, that's

00:47:32.829 --> 00:47:35.769
our bottom, bottom, bottom baseline. But Fred,

00:47:35.849 --> 00:47:39.710
you're saying AVs over 25 years would only save

00:47:39.710 --> 00:47:42.929
360 lives. So that's, you know, you do the math.

00:47:43.090 --> 00:47:47.570
No, the lives that would be lost using AV only

00:47:47.570 --> 00:47:52.369
as a 92 % crash rate reduction. would be 382.

00:47:52.530 --> 00:47:57.949
Oh, 382 over 25 years? Over 25 years with a 92

00:47:57.949 --> 00:48:00.969
% reduction, yeah. Yeah, AEB alone, it's 9 ,000

00:48:00.969 --> 00:48:03.630
in that same period. And that's at the garbage

00:48:03.630 --> 00:48:07.670
level of AEB. This is a no, this is a, you know.

00:48:07.929 --> 00:48:11.030
It's also no, they're never going to reach 92%.

00:48:11.030 --> 00:48:14.250
I mean, if you look at 50 % crash rate reduction,

00:48:14.690 --> 00:48:18.989
anything that you can do to perturb these numbers

00:48:18.989 --> 00:48:22.309
ends up... Making an even more compelling argument

00:48:22.309 --> 00:48:25.250
that you're wasting your time and energy by going

00:48:25.250 --> 00:48:30.869
after AV proliferation. So now going on a limb

00:48:30.869 --> 00:48:33.230
here, Michael, I'm going to say the best approach

00:48:33.230 --> 00:48:36.949
that would be most economical and the most advantageous

00:48:36.949 --> 00:48:41.590
would be for a third party to develop the AV

00:48:41.590 --> 00:48:45.449
technology and inject it wherever it can into

00:48:45.449 --> 00:48:52.780
the automotive development stream. If this technology

00:48:52.780 --> 00:48:57.440
is retained by private companies and only the

00:48:57.440 --> 00:48:59.679
private companies are allowed to use it, those

00:48:59.679 --> 00:49:02.780
who've developed it, you're looking at half a

00:49:02.780 --> 00:49:06.119
million some odd unnecessary deaths over the

00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:11.860
next 25 years. For reference, the numbers of

00:49:11.860 --> 00:49:16.650
U .S. dead in World War II is 298 ,000. And in

00:49:16.650 --> 00:49:20.329
the Civil War, you're talking 650 to 850 ,000,

00:49:20.329 --> 00:49:22.150
something like that. Records aren't clear there.

00:49:22.550 --> 00:49:25.949
So what we're saying is that retention of this

00:49:25.949 --> 00:49:28.530
by private companies for their own private benefit

00:49:28.530 --> 00:49:33.670
means that you're going to kill far more people

00:49:33.670 --> 00:49:36.789
in the next 25 years due to that retention of

00:49:36.789 --> 00:49:42.090
technology than were killed in many major wars.

00:49:42.309 --> 00:49:47.889
So that's a sobering number. And that concludes

00:49:47.889 --> 00:49:51.769
the towel for this week. You win the towel for

00:49:51.769 --> 00:49:54.469
this week. Hands down. You win the towel. This

00:49:54.469 --> 00:49:59.530
is great. I look forward to seeing this develop

00:49:59.530 --> 00:50:03.590
further with more peer review input. And we'll

00:50:03.590 --> 00:50:05.849
put it on. This was pure. This is a peer reviewed

00:50:05.849 --> 00:50:09.630
study, by the way, for. Our listeners, Waymo

00:50:09.630 --> 00:50:12.909
style peer review. But if anybody's interested

00:50:12.909 --> 00:50:15.570
and has questions or comments, just contact us

00:50:15.570 --> 00:50:18.550
here at where, Anthony? Contact at autosafety

00:50:18.550 --> 00:50:23.409
.org. Thank you. You're welcome. Fascinating

00:50:23.409 --> 00:50:26.190
stuff. We're going to jump to an article before

00:50:26.190 --> 00:50:28.469
we get into recalls about, this is something

00:50:28.469 --> 00:50:30.309
we've talked about in the past, and I know Fred's

00:50:30.309 --> 00:50:34.300
had concerns about this, EV battery life. So

00:50:34.300 --> 00:50:36.960
early EVs, the Nissan Leaf, like, their battery,

00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:40.760
like, cycle of charge, discharge wasn't that

00:50:40.760 --> 00:50:43.579
great. And one of the concerns with EVs is, oh,

00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:45.219
my God, after 100 ,000 miles, you're going to

00:50:45.219 --> 00:50:48.960
pay $25 ,000 to get a new battery pack. Well,

00:50:49.059 --> 00:50:50.920
now that EVs have been running on the road for,

00:50:51.019 --> 00:50:54.679
you know, let's say a decade, you know, in a

00:50:54.679 --> 00:51:00.070
larger population. uh the information is that

00:51:00.070 --> 00:51:02.329
seems that these batteries are defying expectations

00:51:02.329 --> 00:51:05.170
according to the wall street journal quoting

00:51:05.170 --> 00:51:08.429
after five years on the road the average ev will

00:51:08.429 --> 00:51:10.989
still be able to drive up to 95 of its original

00:51:10.989 --> 00:51:13.730
range according to recurrent a data science company

00:51:13.730 --> 00:51:15.929
that provides a battery monitoring tool for evs

00:51:15.929 --> 00:51:19.010
better than many in the industry expected so

00:51:19.010 --> 00:51:21.969
it quotes a guy in there who's got a car that's

00:51:21.969 --> 00:51:26.949
got 200 000 plus miles on it uh he is also a

00:51:27.619 --> 00:51:30.880
EV used car salesman. So I'd take a little grain

00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:34.000
of salt. But from what we've seen in other places

00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:36.659
too, these batteries are lasting much, much longer

00:51:36.659 --> 00:51:39.079
than imagined. And some people think, well, it

00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:42.860
only goes to 92%. That's better than my phone

00:51:42.860 --> 00:51:45.920
that's two years old. And my phone hasn't driven

00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:48.860
me anywhere except crazy. Who's from out of town?

00:51:49.400 --> 00:51:53.000
I guess to be fair, even internal combustion

00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:55.260
engine vehicles will lose some of their perfect

00:51:55.260 --> 00:52:00.000
mileage over time, right? Also note, this is

00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:04.280
not a detailed study. And anecdotal information

00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:09.199
can be very different than systematically evaluated

00:52:09.199 --> 00:52:11.940
information. So there's an awful lot of batteries

00:52:11.940 --> 00:52:14.500
out there that they're not considering. And in

00:52:14.500 --> 00:52:17.920
any normal distribution, there are going to be

00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:20.320
some that last a lot longer than others. So we

00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:22.159
don't know where the mean and the median are

00:52:22.159 --> 00:52:25.880
in this. So, yeah. At least one grain of salt,

00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:28.599
maybe two. Still skeptical. I think if they were

00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:30.480
dying at the rate like the Nissan Leafs were,

00:52:30.619 --> 00:52:32.960
we'd hear more and more about that because a

00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:35.639
lot of consumers would be really angry. I mean,

00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:37.659
they're upset enough and embarrassed enough they

00:52:37.659 --> 00:52:40.039
bought a Tesla. But now they're like, oh, and

00:52:40.039 --> 00:52:42.659
the battery died. You know, four years later,

00:52:42.800 --> 00:52:45.579
it's useless. I mean, and my copy of Mein Kampf

00:52:45.579 --> 00:52:50.300
is all like lost it. OK, I'm not. I mean, I'm

00:52:50.300 --> 00:52:52.980
at the point where I'm integrating EVs into my

00:52:52.980 --> 00:52:57.190
car buying. look right um and i'm kind of a i'm

00:52:57.190 --> 00:52:59.570
kind of a battery weenie mainly because you know

00:52:59.570 --> 00:53:03.630
i don't want to or live near a major metropolitan

00:53:03.630 --> 00:53:06.650
area where i think it's a little easier and more

00:53:06.650 --> 00:53:11.630
convenient to be an ev on your owner um but you

00:53:11.630 --> 00:53:14.710
know the battery is not my concern necessarily

00:53:14.710 --> 00:53:19.309
anymore what's your concern you know not much

00:53:19.309 --> 00:53:21.289
that's why i've kind of put them into put them

00:53:21.289 --> 00:53:23.409
into the rotation looking at it i mean i'm i'm

00:53:24.489 --> 00:53:29.210
I'm interested in an EV at this point. You're

00:53:29.210 --> 00:53:33.469
battery curious. I'm battery curious. Fascinating.

00:53:33.510 --> 00:53:36.550
Fred, has your view of the battery world shifted

00:53:36.550 --> 00:53:40.909
at all? They're getting better all the time.

00:53:42.389 --> 00:53:45.690
What can you say? But it's interesting. This

00:53:45.690 --> 00:53:47.530
discussion has talked about salt and battery.

00:53:50.420 --> 00:53:53.500
Ah, okay. Do I have another story? Oh, yeah,

00:53:53.559 --> 00:53:55.460
we're going to do a follow -up because we talked

00:53:55.460 --> 00:53:58.199
about it. So last week we talked about a Tesla

00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:02.820
that drove into a woman's house and killed her.

00:54:03.340 --> 00:54:06.340
And the question was, was it running full self

00:54:06.340 --> 00:54:08.239
-driving? Was it running their autopilot software?

00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:12.639
Really not going to find that specific answer

00:54:12.639 --> 00:54:16.300
out until trial time. But at this point, I'm

00:54:16.300 --> 00:54:18.699
going to quote from an article. Harris County

00:54:18.699 --> 00:54:21.260
prosecutors have charged the Tesla driver who

00:54:21.260 --> 00:54:23.320
crashed into a Katy, Texas home and killed a

00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:25.820
76 -year -old woman with manslaughter, alleging

00:54:25.820 --> 00:54:28.099
he overrode full self -driving to floor the car

00:54:28.099 --> 00:54:31.199
to 73 miles per hour in a residential cul -de

00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:34.199
-sac. The charging document also reveals something

00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:36.599
new. In the weeks before the crash, the driver

00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:38.960
had been Googling that FSD wasn't aggressive

00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:44.960
enough. Oh, you know, I don't know how they did

00:54:44.960 --> 00:54:48.320
that so quickly. So we said we're going to give

00:54:48.320 --> 00:54:50.320
you an update on this. That's the latest information.

00:54:50.719 --> 00:54:54.500
I don't know how fast court systems work in Katy,

00:54:54.639 --> 00:54:57.820
Texas. I don't know, but you'd think that the

00:54:57.820 --> 00:55:00.519
automatic emergency braking would detect a house.

00:55:00.980 --> 00:55:06.079
No. It's not designed to detect houses. Yeah,

00:55:06.119 --> 00:55:08.500
it should detect a stationary object or their

00:55:08.500 --> 00:55:11.360
mapping software should detect. I shouldn't go

00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:14.159
off the road. This is just one of those cases

00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:16.780
where, I mean, I think the driver is saying that,

00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:19.519
He essentially blanked out at the end. Doesn't

00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:22.199
remember why. I mean, the data, I believe, showed

00:55:22.199 --> 00:55:28.820
him doing rolling stops through stop signs, you

00:55:28.820 --> 00:55:30.699
know, I think is what it was. You know, there's

00:55:30.699 --> 00:55:34.980
some somewhat incriminating Google searches that

00:55:34.980 --> 00:55:37.599
make it appear that he was looking for ways to

00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:40.280
kind of game full self -driving to make it more

00:55:40.280 --> 00:55:43.949
aggressive. I just don't, there's not a lot of

00:55:43.949 --> 00:55:46.650
information about those last six seconds, you

00:55:46.650 --> 00:55:51.090
know. You know, all it shows is, I mean, apparently

00:55:51.090 --> 00:55:53.710
the Tesla data is claiming to show that there

00:55:53.710 --> 00:55:57.289
was a brake pedal application for six seconds

00:55:57.289 --> 00:55:59.909
when this guy doesn't remember anything. I don't

00:55:59.909 --> 00:56:02.010
know. There could have been a medical event here.

00:56:02.170 --> 00:56:04.170
There could have been a lot of things that happened

00:56:04.170 --> 00:56:06.010
here, but it's just not clear at the moment.

00:56:06.110 --> 00:56:08.289
However, it's clear enough to charge the guy

00:56:08.289 --> 00:56:11.760
with manslaughter in Texas. Once we find out

00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:13.760
more and more about this case, we will continue

00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:18.440
to update you. And now let's show them. Oh, yeah,

00:56:18.519 --> 00:56:21.019
let's do one more silly Tesla story. How about

00:56:21.019 --> 00:56:22.760
that? One more silly Tesla story. Are we up for

00:56:22.760 --> 00:56:25.860
it? Yay, Tesla. Yay. So remember, Tesla has this

00:56:25.860 --> 00:56:28.260
cyber cab thing where there's no steering wheel,

00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:31.119
no pedals, no brains, and only a two seater.

00:56:31.199 --> 00:56:33.880
And they want to do this as their their version

00:56:33.880 --> 00:56:37.599
of a ride share thing. And so they have Tesla's

00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:40.380
proven. That their full self -driving is not

00:56:40.380 --> 00:56:43.019
autonomous. They've proven this in Austin repeatedly

00:56:43.019 --> 00:56:46.539
in a very tight geofenced area that it doesn't

00:56:46.539 --> 00:56:49.360
really work that well. Elon has even come out

00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:51.380
and said, wait for the next version. That will

00:56:51.380 --> 00:56:54.159
solve everything. I've never heard him say that

00:56:54.159 --> 00:56:56.780
before in my life. So I imagine this must be

00:56:56.780 --> 00:57:01.000
true. He's not a man prone to hyperbole. And

00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:07.170
we use sarcasm. so continuing uh there's another

00:57:07.170 --> 00:57:10.230
electric article i'm gonna quote from it uh the

00:57:10.230 --> 00:57:13.130
reason the fleet stays small the isn't a mapping

00:57:13.130 --> 00:57:16.409
problem and musk said so himself on the q1 2026

00:57:16.409 --> 00:57:18.429
call he told investors that safety validation

00:57:18.429 --> 00:57:20.969
is the limiting factor for robo taxi expansion

00:57:20.969 --> 00:57:23.929
and that tesla is holding back until a rewritten

00:57:23.929 --> 00:57:27.030
full self -driving version 15 arrives now targeted

00:57:27.030 --> 00:57:31.489
for the end of 2026 or early 2027 or never Tesla's

00:57:31.489 --> 00:57:33.289
supervised fleet has been crashing at roughly

00:57:33.289 --> 00:57:35.610
four times the rate of an average human driver,

00:57:35.789 --> 00:57:37.730
and the company has reported a string of crashes

00:57:37.730 --> 00:57:40.949
to NHTSA and Austin. So the article questions,

00:57:41.150 --> 00:57:43.849
why are they even building this vehicle if they

00:57:43.849 --> 00:57:45.849
are not allowed to drive it and they're not allowed

00:57:45.849 --> 00:57:48.590
to use it anywhere? The article misses the fact

00:57:48.590 --> 00:57:51.690
that this is part of Elon's pay package. He's

00:57:51.690 --> 00:57:53.230
got to show that he's built this shit so he can

00:57:53.230 --> 00:57:56.579
be a trillionaire. But yeah, in a more logical

00:57:56.579 --> 00:57:58.860
business sense, why are they wasting money building

00:57:58.860 --> 00:58:01.219
this thing that they can't use and doesn't work?

00:58:01.380 --> 00:58:05.739
I don't know. Besides just Elon's paycheck. Yeah,

00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:09.300
I think it's all PR. I don't understand why any

00:58:09.300 --> 00:58:12.260
company would be manufacturing vehicles that

00:58:12.260 --> 00:58:16.300
can't be sold or operate commercially other than

00:58:16.300 --> 00:58:20.579
to stoke the kind of bullshit investor confidence

00:58:20.579 --> 00:58:23.119
that Tesla has been doing for years. And with

00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:26.119
that, let's jump into recalls. Because here's

00:58:26.119 --> 00:58:27.420
another company. I don't understand why they're

00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:30.019
building cars still. That's too harsh. Let's

00:58:30.019 --> 00:58:34.380
start off with Ford. 66 ,383 vehicles. The 2025

00:58:34.380 --> 00:58:41.679
-2027 Explorer. 24 -27 Lincoln Nautilus. Hybrids.

00:58:41.679 --> 00:58:45.340
Oh, they're hybrids. the vehicle may not admit

00:58:45.340 --> 00:58:47.599
pedestrian warning sounds in certain instances

00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:49.679
where there's an error in the audio processing

00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:52.400
software and the vehicle is driven below 30 kph

00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:55.260
in electric mode this condition can randomly

00:58:55.260 --> 00:58:58.260
occur without input from the driver the vehicle

00:58:58.260 --> 00:59:00.840
pedestrian warning that's for when you're running

00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:03.420
an ev mode off of battery power and it's like

00:59:03.420 --> 00:59:07.920
the whistler yeah so why why don't they just

00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:10.659
use the the simple mechanical whistler thing

00:59:10.659 --> 00:59:15.199
like i don't like why would you need like the

00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:19.219
like the the deer horns or whatever yeah it wasn't

00:59:19.219 --> 00:59:21.539
that like early evs would do that where it's

00:59:21.539 --> 00:59:23.559
like a little mechanical thing and then below

00:59:23.559 --> 00:59:25.579
a certain amount it would emit that tone and

00:59:25.579 --> 00:59:27.239
above that well i mean i don't know if it was

00:59:27.239 --> 00:59:29.460
cool enough or not i mean you know that for years

00:59:29.460 --> 00:59:32.679
manufacturers were trying to you know be able

00:59:32.679 --> 00:59:37.260
to play like um custom tones here right and music

00:59:37.260 --> 00:59:42.489
and all sorts of weird stuff um but anyway It's

00:59:42.489 --> 00:59:45.010
not, you know, apparently there's some signal

00:59:45.010 --> 00:59:49.369
confusion in the software here and they're going

00:59:49.369 --> 00:59:51.869
to get a software, a new software version that

00:59:51.869 --> 00:59:55.230
improved the pedestrian warning. It doesn't,

00:59:55.230 --> 00:59:57.349
you know, the timeline for this, it seems like

00:59:57.349 --> 01:00:00.110
a simple recall, but they're putting, you know,

01:00:00.110 --> 01:00:03.869
they're going to interim notify the owners in

01:00:03.869 --> 01:00:08.880
August and they don't have a final. for a recall.

01:00:09.059 --> 01:00:11.900
So this is something to keep an eye on. And if

01:00:11.900 --> 01:00:14.219
you're an owner of one of these vehicles, understand

01:00:14.219 --> 01:00:19.079
that when you are driving in the area of pedestrians,

01:00:19.619 --> 01:00:23.420
they might not be able to hear you. You know,

01:00:23.440 --> 01:00:26.039
back in my day, we had a bugler who preceded

01:00:26.039 --> 01:00:28.699
the car at intersections who would, you know,

01:00:28.699 --> 01:00:31.159
have to toot the horn and make sure it was clear.

01:00:31.980 --> 01:00:33.619
I think we should get back to that. You know,

01:00:33.659 --> 01:00:37.019
that's funny. But back in the day when cars were

01:00:37.019 --> 01:00:38.679
first around, I think there were a couple of

01:00:38.679 --> 01:00:41.179
there was at least one state I know that passed

01:00:41.179 --> 01:00:44.400
a law that if you were operating a vehicle, you

01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:47.739
had to have someone shooting off fireworks or

01:00:47.739 --> 01:00:50.780
some type of, you know, warning device in front

01:00:50.780 --> 01:00:52.679
of the vehicle to let people know it was coming.

01:00:52.800 --> 01:00:56.400
So makes sense to me. Again, ladies and gentlemen,

01:00:56.440 --> 01:00:59.619
Fred learned how to drive on a horse and the

01:00:59.619 --> 01:01:03.929
bugler. Yeah, this is a strange one, but my favorite

01:01:03.929 --> 01:01:05.869
part of this recall, it says if it's operating

01:01:05.869 --> 01:01:10.349
below 30 kph instead of miles per hour. That's

01:01:10.349 --> 01:01:13.690
how the standard. It's about 20. No, I know.

01:01:13.750 --> 01:01:16.469
But, you know, America, we don't do metric. Come

01:01:16.469 --> 01:01:20.090
on. You know, when we do hard science, we have

01:01:20.090 --> 01:01:24.349
to sometimes, right? America. Next up, Ford.

01:01:24.889 --> 01:01:30.059
42 ,784 vehicles in 2021 to 2023. Mustang Mach

01:01:30.059 --> 01:01:34.900
-E. In the event of a differential pinion shaft

01:01:34.900 --> 01:01:37.260
failure, the customer experienced a loss of motive

01:01:37.260 --> 01:01:40.519
power and or an unintended vehicle movement with

01:01:40.519 --> 01:01:42.719
park requested if the parking brake is not applied.

01:01:43.300 --> 01:01:45.699
This sounds like something we've dealt with before

01:01:45.699 --> 01:01:48.500
with Ford. And this is what we talked about last

01:01:48.500 --> 01:01:50.820
week before with the whole shift into park, lift

01:01:50.820 --> 01:01:54.769
into park, brake, right? Is this not... I think

01:01:54.769 --> 01:01:56.969
there was a similar result, but a different mechanism.

01:01:57.230 --> 01:01:59.170
Yeah. Yeah. The other one was a transmission

01:01:59.170 --> 01:02:02.510
problem. Right. And I guess this is related,

01:02:02.670 --> 01:02:04.849
but it's the differential. Yeah. Metallurgical

01:02:04.849 --> 01:02:08.929
analysis has determined that differential pinion

01:02:08.929 --> 01:02:11.469
shaft fracture occurs due to bending fatigue.

01:02:11.590 --> 01:02:13.469
The root cause of the bending fatigue remains

01:02:13.469 --> 01:02:18.349
under investigation. Yeah. And so this one, I

01:02:18.349 --> 01:02:20.190
mean, there's a very long timeline on this one

01:02:20.190 --> 01:02:21.949
as well. Owners aren't going, it's going to be

01:02:21.949 --> 01:02:24.130
six months before owners have a remedy. They're

01:02:24.130 --> 01:02:26.590
going to get a letter in the mail in the next

01:02:26.590 --> 01:02:29.050
few days, but they're not going to have a fix

01:02:29.050 --> 01:02:31.690
available until at least the end of the year,

01:02:31.750 --> 01:02:35.630
December 28th through the 31st. This is a really

01:02:35.630 --> 01:02:38.789
hard thing to fix because it's deep inside the,

01:02:38.789 --> 01:02:42.829
the, uh, your case because of that, you've got

01:02:42.829 --> 01:02:46.769
severe. limitations on how big you can make the

01:02:46.769 --> 01:02:48.869
part. So they're probably going to have to come

01:02:48.869 --> 01:02:53.250
up with a much stronger kind of steel to put

01:02:53.250 --> 01:02:55.690
in there and then develop all those mechanisms

01:02:55.690 --> 01:03:00.670
and put it in. So this is a big deal. Not to

01:03:00.670 --> 01:03:03.210
sound totally stupid, but you said a gear case,

01:03:03.289 --> 01:03:04.789
but this is an electric vehicle. I didn't think

01:03:04.789 --> 01:03:08.010
they had gears. Yeah, they're doing differential.

01:03:08.309 --> 01:03:11.090
Okay. Oh, the differential. You explained that

01:03:11.090 --> 01:03:14.900
early on. I remember now. Okay. Next up, Ford!

01:03:15.019 --> 01:03:20.559
That's right, world champion Ford. 67 ,842 vehicles.

01:03:20.639 --> 01:03:27.619
The 2025 to 2026 Mustang GTD. The 2024 to 2026

01:03:27.619 --> 01:03:31.099
regular Mustang. And in cold temperatures of

01:03:31.099 --> 01:03:33.559
zero degrees Celsius or less, the vehicle's wiper

01:03:33.559 --> 01:03:36.960
motor may lose local interconnect network communication

01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:39.260
with the vehicle's steering column control module.

01:03:39.719 --> 01:03:42.059
As a result of this communication loss, customers

01:03:42.059 --> 01:03:44.139
may experience front windshield wipers that only

01:03:44.139 --> 01:03:46.760
operate at their high -speed setting and in an

01:03:46.760 --> 01:03:49.599
inoperable windshield washing system in these

01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:56.559
cold temperatures. That was a mouthful. So you

01:03:56.559 --> 01:03:58.760
try to turn on your wipers when it's snowing

01:03:58.760 --> 01:04:02.820
or it's cold outside and they don't go on? That

01:04:02.820 --> 01:04:05.210
sounds like the problem, yeah. There's a lot

01:04:05.210 --> 01:04:07.969
of problems here. There's a lot of weird stuff

01:04:07.969 --> 01:04:12.789
going on with the wipers. But once again, right,

01:04:12.929 --> 01:04:16.489
the planned remedy owner notification date isn't

01:04:16.489 --> 01:04:24.570
until March 29th of next year. So, I mean, you

01:04:24.570 --> 01:04:26.050
would think they would be in a hurry to get this

01:04:26.050 --> 01:04:28.349
done by the United States winter, right? You

01:04:28.349 --> 01:04:31.369
know, we know what happens in cold. There would

01:04:31.369 --> 01:04:33.909
be something going on there, but all of the owners

01:04:33.909 --> 01:04:35.690
of these vehicles are going to have to worry

01:04:35.690 --> 01:04:39.070
about not having wipers for the next winter because

01:04:39.070 --> 01:04:43.869
of this problem. Once again, I'm a little disappointed,

01:04:44.090 --> 01:04:46.329
and this is all Forge we've had so far with their

01:04:46.329 --> 01:04:48.769
recall scheduling. I don't know if they have

01:04:48.769 --> 01:04:50.849
so many recalls that they're falling behind or

01:04:50.849 --> 01:04:53.190
their dealers can't keep up with them or what.

01:04:53.849 --> 01:04:56.650
These are, I think in this case, they are replacing

01:04:56.650 --> 01:05:01.690
a semiconductor chip, right? So and maybe replacing

01:05:01.690 --> 01:05:03.829
the wiper motor that has that chip in it. So

01:05:03.829 --> 01:05:06.449
there is some redesign that has to go on. But

01:05:06.449 --> 01:05:09.690
that seems like a pretty significant and kind

01:05:09.690 --> 01:05:11.989
of scary delay for some owners. Yeah, this is

01:05:11.989 --> 01:05:14.630
a bizarre one. Reading down further, the supplier

01:05:14.630 --> 01:05:17.289
of a semiconductor chip on the wipers motor printed

01:05:17.289 --> 01:05:20.010
circuit board assembly erroneously used a 32

01:05:20.010 --> 01:05:22.210
kilobyte programming equipment setting for the

01:05:22.210 --> 01:05:25.110
16 kilobyte chip to be programmed with a mismatched

01:05:25.110 --> 01:05:29.389
32 kilobyte algorithm. So their supplier of this

01:05:29.389 --> 01:05:34.590
just, I had a brain fart. It was a big boo -boo.

01:05:34.710 --> 01:05:37.969
Yeah. And also, I don't need, well, it doesn't

01:05:37.969 --> 01:05:42.710
matter. It's fascinating. Ford. Oh, no. Next

01:05:42.710 --> 01:05:46.929
up, General Motors. Sorry. 14 ,544 vehicles.

01:05:47.110 --> 01:05:52.010
2026 Cadillac Vista Q and the 27 Vista Q. What

01:05:52.010 --> 01:05:55.579
is a Vista Q? GM has decided that a defect which

01:05:55.579 --> 01:05:57.679
relates to motor vehicle safety exists in certain

01:05:57.679 --> 01:06:00.800
these models. Third row seat backs in these vehicles

01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:03.820
can be commanded to power fold into the stowed

01:06:03.820 --> 01:06:06.300
position with a single press release of the down

01:06:06.300 --> 01:06:09.099
control button located in the cargo area or in

01:06:09.099 --> 01:06:12.139
their pillar adjacent to the seat. The seat back

01:06:12.139 --> 01:06:14.440
stops and does not automatically reverse. Oh,

01:06:14.519 --> 01:06:16.500
God, if it encounters an obstruction in the seat.

01:06:16.780 --> 01:06:20.539
Oh, this is awful. This is a way to crush somebody.

01:06:20.659 --> 01:06:22.659
This is going to be in a horror movie. Yeah,

01:06:22.679 --> 01:06:25.980
we saw a death two, three months ago in a Hyundai

01:06:25.980 --> 01:06:30.219
vehicle that had a similar problem. Essentially,

01:06:30.440 --> 01:06:34.380
the power seats, once they start folding, there's

01:06:34.380 --> 01:06:37.719
no way to stop them. And children, even adults

01:06:37.719 --> 01:06:40.480
with limited mobility, I would assume, can be

01:06:40.480 --> 01:06:47.269
trapped and potentially killed. This is a problem.

01:06:47.349 --> 01:06:49.849
I'm glad to see General Motors doing something

01:06:49.849 --> 01:06:51.630
about it. They don't have any incidents with

01:06:51.630 --> 01:06:55.190
this. Maybe they've had some reports, but it

01:06:55.190 --> 01:06:58.349
looks like it was submitted by a GM engineer.

01:06:58.670 --> 01:07:00.809
So they don't even have any field reports, I

01:07:00.809 --> 01:07:03.510
don't think. Oh, they have six other incidents

01:07:03.510 --> 01:07:05.909
or complaints, but no injuries. So that's good.

01:07:06.769 --> 01:07:09.329
It's good they're moving forward with this. Once

01:07:09.329 --> 01:07:12.750
again, owners are going to get an interim notification

01:07:12.750 --> 01:07:15.570
in August, but there's... Absolutely no indication

01:07:15.570 --> 01:07:17.909
of when you're going to get a final fix for this.

01:07:19.349 --> 01:07:22.130
I'm assuming, but not sure, that there's going

01:07:22.130 --> 01:07:29.010
to be a software fix here that allows for a reversible

01:07:29.010 --> 01:07:34.090
power seat feature. We really don't know at this

01:07:34.090 --> 01:07:36.690
point. Once again, I mean, is that every recall

01:07:36.690 --> 01:07:38.489
we've covered this week? Consumers are going

01:07:38.489 --> 01:07:40.210
to have to sit there and wring their hands worrying

01:07:40.210 --> 01:07:42.110
about what happens for a few months. I think

01:07:42.110 --> 01:07:44.269
it is. It's summer vacation, man. I don't want

01:07:44.269 --> 01:07:47.789
to work. The Cadillac Vista Q, I had to look

01:07:47.789 --> 01:07:49.250
it up because I wasn't familiar with this vehicle.

01:07:49.349 --> 01:07:52.289
And it's a big SUV type vehicle. For some reason,

01:07:52.329 --> 01:07:54.570
all their marketing shots, it's driven and parked

01:07:54.570 --> 01:07:57.710
on a tennis court. I don't know why. I don't

01:07:57.710 --> 01:07:59.909
know why somebody made that aesthetic choice.

01:08:00.409 --> 01:08:03.610
But hey, you know. That's where you want to go.

01:08:03.670 --> 01:08:05.670
That's where you want to go. But you can probably

01:08:05.670 --> 01:08:08.170
also take this to your local Piggly Wiggly. And

01:08:08.170 --> 01:08:10.849
with that, ladies and gentlemen, that is the

01:08:10.849 --> 01:08:13.670
end of our show. We'll be back next week. Have

01:08:13.670 --> 01:08:17.350
a lovely week time. Bye -bye. Thanks, everybody.

01:08:19.069 --> 01:08:23.670
Bye -bye. For more information, visit www .autosafety

01:08:23.670 --> 01:08:24.210
.org.