WEBVTT

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You're listening to There Auto Be A Law, the

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Center for Auto Safety podcast with Executive

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Director Michael Brooks, Chief Engineer Fred

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Perkins, and hosted by me, Anthony Cimino. For

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over 50 years, the Center for Auto Safety has

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worked to make cars safer. Hey, listeners, today

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is Wednesday, June 10th, and you've been waiting

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for it. I've been waiting for it. Everyone's

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been waiting for it. What's going on with donut?

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Not that round, sweet, tasty pastry that calls

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me in the night, but donut battery, donut labs.

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For those who don't remember, this was a Finnish

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company, I believe, Finnish, Finland. They said,

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we have. The magic battery. It does not use any

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rare earths. It charges forever. It's got more

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energy density. It doesn't catch on fire. It

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helps you lose weight. It makes your breath fresh.

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And we were all waiting for it. They said by

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the end of the first quarter in 2026, we will

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have a production ready vehicle out on the road.

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They did not. Because now it's like I said, it's

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June. First quarter already ended. There's a

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good breakdown from Zeroth. It sounds like a

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silly person, but he's legit. Electric has a

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good article on this. You can watch this full

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45 -minute video or so where the guy really breaks

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down the nonsense of Donut. Has anyone else watched

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this video or just me? No, I watched it, too.

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Yeah, thank God you watched it. It's not a solid

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-state battery. Long and short of it, it is just

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a lithium -ion battery. That's it. You know,

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it's a scam. So I'm going to just hit some of

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the background of this. So we were all kind of

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like, all right, this is great. But instead,

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this guy breaks down and says, okay, so this

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is what's behind it is there's a company called

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CT Coatings. They were going to be the technology

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provider. Nordic Nano was supposed to be the

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manufacturer of the battery. And then Donut Lab,

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the name that everybody knows, was the commercializer.

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Nordic Nano never manufactured a single battery

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cell. So not a thing. Nordic Nano nothing? Nordic

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Nano nothing nada nero. Instead, what these guys

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did is basically the straight Elon Musk playbook

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said, we will promise you magic unicorns. They

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didn't go after venture capitalists who have

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people who are like, let's dig in and do the

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research. They went after mom and pop investors,

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average people and said, give us your money.

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And then they just took it and just made nonsense.

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I'm going to quote from the article further down.

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The most troubling aspect of the investigation

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centers on how the money was raised. Like I was

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just talking about, Donut Lab had over 1 ,300

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shareholders with over 900 holding 50 or fewer

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shares. Like Rosette, likely representing investments

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between $3 ,000 and $23 ,000 per person. Many

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came from a crowdfunding exercise on Finland's

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SpringVest platform in 2023. So that's the troubling

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part, and that's straight Elon Musk playbook.

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But this video, it breaks down basically saying,

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oh, is it a sodium ion battery? And they look

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at the power curves and everything else, all

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the I do not believe website where they're saying

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this is a real thing. And you can see the power

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curves, the power discharge curves, all of it.

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This is just a lithium ion battery. Nothing fancy.

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Complete. Lie. But Fred, you're more technical

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than I am. What was your takeaway? My takeaway

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is it's complete bullshit. And it was a scam

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and a fraud. I do remember that we were counseling

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caution when people thought of this. I mean,

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it sounded it was the ideal. It was perfect.

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It was wonderful. But there was no data backing

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up their claims in their original releases. We

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did advise caution, and it turns out that was

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warranted. But as far as the analysis goes, yeah,

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it's just a complete scam. Wonderful. It's a

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shame, because it was one of these things where

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like, hey, how often do the Finnish pull this

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kind of late -stage capitalism nonsense? We didn't

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think they did. Turns out, hey, America's everywhere,

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baby. Yeah, well, it's a lot like the AVE scam,

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which is, you know, that... Yeah, we're going

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to do everything for everybody. It's going to

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be perfect. It's going to be safe. It never sleeps.

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It never takes drugs, never has sex. All wonderful

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claims, but they have little to do with the actual

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safety associated with the vehicles. They paper

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over the aspirations with PR, and basically it's

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the same thing. There's a, I don't know what

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to say, a star that they're looking for. It's

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a gold rush. And people are willing to capitalize

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on their gold rush. I don't think there's a lot

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of integrity behind people's desire to get rich

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off of an illusion. Yeah. The sad thing is the

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CEO of the company, this researcher who did the

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battery deep dive, when he reached out to them,

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the CEO of the company and their CTO, I believe

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as well, they're still doubling down. They're

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like, no, just give us a little more time. It's

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all real. No, no, no. Just in two to three years,

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we'll have full self -driving. No, no, no. Everything

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Cathie Wood says is amazing and true. It's just

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that whole, just give us a little more. It's

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someone leading an abusive relationship. Fake

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it till you make it, right? That's the ethos.

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Yeah, yeah. Sadly, it is fake it till you make

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it. And I regret to inform you listeners that

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I hoped it was real. But, you know, sadly, I

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think, Michael, I think you hoped it was real,

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too. I want, you know, I just want solid state.

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technology moving into cars as quickly as possible

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i mean reduction in weight and lower fire risk

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is huge right and you know as long as they don't

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use that that that gain in energy density to

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add all range and, you know, equal out the weight

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that we're already putting on cars. They use

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it to lighten cars. I think it could be really,

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really important for vehicle safety down the

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road. So we were cheering on, hopefully, hoping

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that Donut was going to get this done. But, you

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know, there's still a lot of, I think BYD announced

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this week that they were going to start installing

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solid state into at least a small line of production

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vehicles as soon as next year. I don't think

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with all the firms that are involved in this,

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we're going to be waiting too long for actual

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solid -state batteries to hit the road. Yeah,

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Toyota's going after it pretty hard, too. So

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I think that that is the technology that everybody's

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pursuing. I don't think it's an illusion that

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it can happen, but it's an illusion that it has

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happened. Right. Especially at Donut. Yeah. Yeah.

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So I Donut believe. because you're yeah we do

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not believe anymore we do not believe anymore

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shame shame shame on you moving on this is an

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interesting one because this is again something

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i didn't know about until i started working with

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you gentlemen that the uh that that car life

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when we talk about auto safety the thing is hey

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the new the new fancy safety feature that comes

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out it takes how long before that becomes you

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know goes through the entire fleet in the u .s

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Around 30 years. Yeah. So, you know, airbags,

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about 30 years before it goes to fleet. Our dream

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scenario of automatic emergency braking highway

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speeds releases today, starts selling today.

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It's, you know, we're talking 30 years. Is that

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right, Michael? Yeah. Before it's in, you know,

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every vehicle. Before you can just expect to

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see the total gain that you're going to get from

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that technology. And, you know, there's, you

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know, things like automatic emergency braking

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that are. could be drastically improved over

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time you know having it you know having just

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aeb across the fleet is one thing, but if it's

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the 2015, 2012 kind of kindergarten version of

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AEB that's out there, then obviously that's not

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what we're hoping proliferates through the fleet.

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We're looking for the high -speed AEB, the AEB

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that protects pedestrians, the AEB that can actually

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sense motorcycles and bicyclists. So we've still

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got, you know, I would guess, five to 10 years

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before we see NHTSA put a standard in effect

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that addresses those and the auto industry start

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to put vehicles out with the better automatic

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emergency braking. So I think we're still looking

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at maybe 35, 40 years for full penetration of

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that in the fleet. So it takes a long time. And

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that's why it's important for NHTSA not to take

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15 to 20 years to mandate these types of technologies.

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Because you're You're looking at a 50 -year safety

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gap there when a lot could be getting done. So

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here's the way I look at that. The technology

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is being developed for AVs, right? And people

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are taking whatever successful technology they're

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developing and they're wrapping it into an AV

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package and saying, well, in the future, the

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AVs are going to be saving all these lives. And,

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you know, all we have to do is wait and let industry

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do its thing and get the government the hell

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out of the way. But here's the safety problem.

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If you took this technology that works, if you

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took the technology that's actually reliably

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steering cars and doing good things, and you

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put it immediately into all vehicles as some

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kind of supervisory controller, analogous to

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terrain avoidance technology for airplanes, right?

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Something to back up the driver and... All aspects

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of the driving, not just one or two. If you start

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that today, you're going to start saving lives

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immediately. It's not a question of saving lives

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30 years down the road. Right. So every year

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that NHTSA delays putting regulations in place

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and that industry delays taking the technology

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that they've developed and making it available

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to conventional manufacturers to start saving

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lives in other cars is. you know, unnecessary

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loss of life. There's no reason for delaying

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this technology now, particularly if they say

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it works. You know, if you go to every AV website,

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they say, well, it works. It's great. It's saving

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lives now. Great. Let's have it save lives across

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the full spectrum of the automotive manufacturing

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industry, not just this very narrow aspect of

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AVs, which may trickle in eventually. and someday

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become measurable benefit from the standpoint

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of saving lives. Let's do it now. And so, I mean,

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and the article is, you know, really about kind

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of not technology coming into vehicles, but we're

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keeping our cars so much longer now, you know,

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average of 13 years, you know. 13 years ago,

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your car wasn't required to have, you know, backup

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cameras. You know, in 2029, when the AEB standard

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comes into play, the older vehicles, you know,

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aren't going to have the latest AEB. And, you

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know, you have, I mean. Yes, the average age

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of the vehicle is 13 years, and there's a new

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market that auto manufacturers and dealers and

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independent repair shops are trying to take advantage

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of that. There's a lot of questions for people

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about newer technology. There's a lot of reasons

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people aren't buying new cars. People don't like

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the dashboards. People don't want their privacy

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violated with a bunch of connected features.

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People don't trust software -defined vehicles

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because they're glitching out a lot and they

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have a lot of problems with it. They may be a

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little too complicated for some people. You even

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see Jeff Bezos' slate pickup truck that's coming

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out is actually... pushing back on some of those

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trends and not being a connected vehicle and

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not putting in a lot of the software and electronics

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that tend to not last as long or tend to have

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bugs and other issues. So it's interesting how,

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you know, I guess the trend towards older vehicles

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is, you know, Good in some ways for consumer

00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.460
pocketbooks, but as far as adopting the latest

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technology and saving lives on the road, it's

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kind of a negative trend. So I got to jump in

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because we got slightly ahead of ourselves here.

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Michael, you started going right into the article

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there. We haven't mentioned to listeners what

00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:19.100
the article we're talking about is. This is an

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article from the Wall Street Journal titled Americans

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are keeping their cars longer than ever and remaking

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the auto industry. Quick summary is people used

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to hold onto cars average for 12 years. Now it's

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jumped up to 13 years. And part of that is just

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what Michael was talking about is some people

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don't want to upgrade because of the software.

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They don't like the dashboard. They don't like

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their cup holder size change, whatever, or the

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fact that cars are really expensive right now.

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That's really, that's I think a big part, but

00:13:47.769 --> 00:13:49.929
so I'm going to quote from the opening of the

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article here. Timothy Mason drives a pair of

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Honda Accords. One is a 2010 model with fewer

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than 40 ,000 miles that he uses for his daily

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commute in Massachusetts to his accounting job.

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I assume his accounting job is right next door

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because that's such little mileage. The other,

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a 2001 V6 with more than 280 ,000 miles he uses

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for tough winter driving. Where's the financial

00:14:11.019 --> 00:14:14.220
sense in a new car? Mason, 41, says, better fuel

00:14:14.220 --> 00:14:17.000
mileage? Maybe. Or is it going to save me $800

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plus per month? That, I think, is a great summary.

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You know, why is a consumer, especially somebody

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who owns two Hondas that, I mean, he's got one

00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:31.340
with 280 ,000 miles on it, and that thing's going

00:14:31.340 --> 00:14:34.360
to last until it melts. I mean, he's probably

00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:38.159
got another 100 ,000 miles on that thing. I mean,

00:14:38.179 --> 00:14:39.679
there are a lot of us who are, you know, point

00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:42.980
A to point B car people, right? We love our cars.

00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:45.259
The fact that they get us from one place to another

00:14:45.259 --> 00:14:48.460
and beyond that do not really care about all

00:14:48.460 --> 00:14:51.019
the features and heated seats and new stuff and

00:14:51.019 --> 00:14:53.379
keeping up with the Joneses and all that. We

00:14:53.379 --> 00:14:57.620
just want a car that works. I think those kind

00:14:57.620 --> 00:14:59.659
of folks are probably driving this trend because

00:14:59.659 --> 00:15:02.820
cars are expensive. You know, familiarity is

00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:05.919
great. And, you know, cars, you know, it's not

00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:10.070
an article that cars. tend to last longer than

00:15:10.070 --> 00:15:12.269
they have in the past. I'm not sure how that

00:15:12.269 --> 00:15:14.990
interfaces with, I guess, my view that a lot

00:15:14.990 --> 00:15:17.669
of the software and bugginess of these features

00:15:17.669 --> 00:15:21.269
and the electronics are contributing to problems

00:15:21.269 --> 00:15:23.649
in that area. So, you know, who knows what's

00:15:23.649 --> 00:15:25.690
going on there? Yeah. Even further down in the

00:15:25.690 --> 00:15:27.750
article towards the end, I'm going to quote,

00:15:27.990 --> 00:15:30.409
today, buying a new car isn't on his radar. They're

00:15:30.409 --> 00:15:33.590
talking about a man named Chris Gleason in St.

00:15:33.769 --> 00:15:36.899
Louis or in Illinois. And he's saying that his

00:15:36.899 --> 00:15:40.200
wife is also keeping her 2007 Toyota Prius. It's

00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:42.940
all unkillable. I can count on one hand the number

00:15:42.940 --> 00:15:45.379
of repairs I've needed, and I've never been stranded.

00:15:46.340 --> 00:15:48.360
Which makes me wonder, who the hell is buying

00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:50.419
a Ford and a GM? What are you guys thinking?

00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:55.659
Is it just nationalism? Is it racism? Why? Why?

00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:58.240
Because there's no Ford or GM vehicle you could

00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:02.340
buy from 2007 that doesn't have a stack of recalls

00:16:02.340 --> 00:16:04.980
and needs a billion repairs. Sorry, that's mine.

00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:09.019
rant i mean you're a toyota guy right i'm a i

00:16:09.019 --> 00:16:12.799
i'm not brand loyal i am a this is a car that

00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:15.720
will last a long time toyota will last a long

00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.840
time honda's a long time pretty much all the

00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:21.840
japanese make it will last a long time with some

00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:24.159
rare exceptions to some mazda weirdness that

00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:27.200
happened at one point and mitsubishi yeah i think

00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:29.720
mazda's actually improved significantly in the

00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:31.899
past decade without a doubt you can't really

00:16:31.899 --> 00:16:33.779
say that in about an american auto manufacturer

00:16:34.379 --> 00:16:40.580
I'm not a big fan of Nissan. I saw a Nissan Cube

00:16:40.580 --> 00:16:44.139
a couple of days ago that had a big rust stain

00:16:44.139 --> 00:16:48.340
running down its back hatchback. Oh, I haven't

00:16:48.340 --> 00:16:52.159
seen rust on a vehicle in forever. Yeah, right.

00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:54.419
Well, that was why it was outstanding, I guess.

00:16:54.500 --> 00:16:58.559
And these cars are only a few years old, so I'm

00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:02.080
a little circumspect about Nissan. I mean, a

00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:04.680
little rust might make a Nissan Cube look better.

00:17:05.460 --> 00:17:08.140
Well, that's a good point of kind of raising

00:17:08.140 --> 00:17:12.900
stripe. I'm a fan of Nissan's former CEO, how

00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:19.900
he escaped Japan. Carlos Ghosn, I mean, talk

00:17:19.900 --> 00:17:24.039
about failing upwards in life. Look, that guy.

00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:28.180
Yeah, anyway, so this is, so keep in mind, listeners,

00:17:28.220 --> 00:17:30.000
when we talk about safeties, yes, we're talking

00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:32.619
about new technology that's coming on, but how

00:17:32.619 --> 00:17:34.880
long this takes to get through the fleet. And

00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:38.039
I think part of manufacturers' responsibility

00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.960
to ensure that the roads become safer with new

00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.740
technology is not planned obsolescence. No, it's

00:17:44.740 --> 00:17:48.380
make more affordable cars. Stop trying to, you

00:17:48.380 --> 00:17:49.880
know, the average price of a new car is what,

00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:54.549
$50 ,000? Yep. That's insane. You can't even

00:17:54.549 --> 00:17:56.910
get a rear view camera to work. What are we doing?

00:17:57.650 --> 00:18:00.470
I don't know. Hey, and if you agree, go to autosafety

00:18:00.470 --> 00:18:02.990
.org and click on donate. If you disagree, donate

00:18:02.990 --> 00:18:08.049
twice. Yeah, I think that makes sense. Now let's

00:18:08.049 --> 00:18:10.569
talk about the future, shall we? Another article

00:18:10.569 --> 00:18:13.029
from the Wall Street Journal titled driverless

00:18:13.029 --> 00:18:15.549
trucks are here and they're delivering bags of

00:18:15.549 --> 00:18:21.549
Doritos. So years ago, we talked about how Pepsi

00:18:21.549 --> 00:18:25.430
was using Tesla's cyber. cab things to deliver

00:18:25.430 --> 00:18:29.309
Doritos. Well, Pepsi, I guess, no longer uses

00:18:29.309 --> 00:18:33.250
Tesla's Cybertruck things because inside this

00:18:33.250 --> 00:18:36.130
article, it talks about Pepsi. I'm going to quote,

00:18:36.269 --> 00:18:39.069
PepsiCo's operation using trucks outfitted with

00:18:39.069 --> 00:18:41.049
sensors and computers from an autonomous trunk

00:18:41.049 --> 00:18:44.009
company called Gattic is a step beyond, on par

00:18:44.009 --> 00:18:46.470
with the technical hurdles being cleared by much

00:18:46.470 --> 00:18:48.730
smaller, lighter, driverless passenger taxis

00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:51.680
from Waymo, Tesla, and others. Don't include

00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:53.299
Tesla, please. But that's just lazy journalism.

00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:56.000
These operations that we're running today are

00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.259
real, said Jim Farrell, PepsiCo's senior vice

00:18:58.259 --> 00:19:00.079
president of supply chain. They're running in

00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.140
multiple markets in a live network, not like

00:19:02.140 --> 00:19:05.599
some experimental test environment. So these

00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:09.160
have others on the road. And further down, many

00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:10.920
of the company's delivery drivers have always

00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:13.059
been sales representatives, too. And not having

00:19:13.059 --> 00:19:15.359
to travel with the truck allows them more time

00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.799
to interact with store owners to pitch them on

00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:20.650
the latest promotion, the company said. Farrell

00:19:20.650 --> 00:19:22.450
said the driverless trucks are more reliable

00:19:22.450 --> 00:19:25.470
than human drivers. The on -time arrival performance

00:19:25.470 --> 00:19:29.089
for driverless trucks reached 99 % after factoring

00:19:29.089 --> 00:19:31.569
out uncontrollable variables like weather and

00:19:31.569 --> 00:19:35.769
traffic. Last quote. Plus, humans can call in

00:19:35.769 --> 00:19:38.609
sick or hit up against service limits that cap

00:19:38.609 --> 00:19:41.710
how many hours a day they can be behind the wheel.

00:19:43.849 --> 00:19:49.549
This is absurd. I mean... I get they're trying

00:19:49.549 --> 00:19:51.529
to save a couple bucks because they're selling

00:19:51.529 --> 00:19:54.309
Doritos. Like in every, you know, you don't have

00:19:54.309 --> 00:19:56.890
to, a truck driver probably have to pay more

00:19:56.890 --> 00:19:59.069
than the guy who's in the store wearing the Frito

00:19:59.069 --> 00:20:02.849
-Lay shirt that says, Ruffles, sour cream and

00:20:02.849 --> 00:20:05.930
onion, get you a discount. If you buy a whole

00:20:05.930 --> 00:20:09.369
bunch of cases of Pepsi with it, I don't, I don't

00:20:09.369 --> 00:20:12.029
know. I mean, is that guy not calling sick? But

00:20:12.029 --> 00:20:14.890
I guess he's a replaceable cog. And the store

00:20:14.890 --> 00:20:16.910
owner is like, where's Barry? Well, I'm Gary

00:20:16.910 --> 00:20:20.009
and I'm here to tell you about Cool Ranch Doritos

00:20:20.009 --> 00:20:23.670
and Diet Pepsi. I mean, are they also hoping

00:20:23.670 --> 00:20:29.509
to offload the process of, you know, loading

00:20:29.509 --> 00:20:32.309
the items they're carrying into the store they're

00:20:32.309 --> 00:20:34.829
delivering to? I mean, typically when you're

00:20:34.829 --> 00:20:36.990
at a convenience store somewhere, it's the truck

00:20:36.990 --> 00:20:39.750
driver that's delivering the goods. What's happening

00:20:39.750 --> 00:20:42.490
here? Right. And having worked in a convenience

00:20:42.490 --> 00:20:46.690
store for. from the age 12 to 20, I do not remember

00:20:46.690 --> 00:20:49.150
ever the delivery guy being like, you know, trying

00:20:49.150 --> 00:20:52.569
to, you know, sell us on stuff. It was like,

00:20:52.589 --> 00:20:55.509
you need Pepsi? Great. Here's the order. Great.

00:20:55.589 --> 00:20:57.730
Oh, we've got something new. You know, like,

00:20:57.730 --> 00:21:00.230
all right, you try it and you, you know, whatever.

00:21:00.329 --> 00:21:03.730
But they really weren't trying new things. It

00:21:03.730 --> 00:21:07.869
was like, you know, potato chips. Okay. Fuck.

00:21:08.589 --> 00:21:11.089
I, you know, maybe the world's changed. Maybe

00:21:11.089 --> 00:21:13.390
it's all AI potato chips now. Fred, do you have

00:21:13.390 --> 00:21:18.670
a thought? Yeah, the GADEC was audited, according

00:21:18.670 --> 00:21:23.009
to the website, per UL 4600. And this is something

00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:25.109
that we've been advocating for a long time for

00:21:25.109 --> 00:21:28.769
people or companies that are interested in autonomous

00:21:28.769 --> 00:21:33.470
vehicle operation. So it doesn't really say how

00:21:33.470 --> 00:21:35.589
they did with that audit or who performed the

00:21:35.589 --> 00:21:40.769
audit, but that was in a hurricane. a foundation

00:21:40.769 --> 00:21:44.789
stone or a foundation for safe AV operation.

00:21:45.210 --> 00:21:47.829
We've been supporting that for a long time. So

00:21:47.829 --> 00:21:50.529
I need to dig into that a little bit more. The

00:21:50.529 --> 00:21:54.869
website does say that they have used an audit.

00:21:55.069 --> 00:21:58.069
At the core is adherence to the requirements

00:21:58.069 --> 00:22:02.190
of UL 4600, one of the key safety standards for

00:22:02.190 --> 00:22:07.650
SAE level four and five autonomous systems. I'd

00:22:07.650 --> 00:22:11.200
love to know the details of that. It's like they're

00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.000
working with Edge Case Research, former guest

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:21.839
of the podcast on that. Yep. So this may be something

00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.740
that is actually more interesting than it appears

00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:28.440
at first. We'll keep you up to date listeners

00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:32.019
as we find out more. Maybe we can get some information

00:22:32.019 --> 00:22:36.000
on who did this UL 4600 audit and what they found.

00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:39.779
I'm curious about the direct quote. The on -time

00:22:39.779 --> 00:22:42.099
arrival performance from driverless trucks reached

00:22:42.099 --> 00:22:46.720
99%. I don't know what that means. I mean, I...

00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:49.819
It could mean it had two deliveries and, you

00:22:49.819 --> 00:22:52.960
know, they came on time. Who knows? But I don't

00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.119
remember ever having... You know, granted, this

00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:57.019
was a 7 -Eleven I worked in. I don't remember

00:22:57.019 --> 00:22:59.279
there being like, God, it's Tuesday, 11 -04.

00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:03.380
Where's the Pepsi guy? There was never a thought.

00:23:03.500 --> 00:23:06.380
Like, no one... no one cared it was just like

00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:09.599
yeah they're probably coming on tuesday you know

00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:11.240
and the guy would come in and he'd fill up a

00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:17.259
big gulp with coke anyway uh let's jump more

00:23:17.259 --> 00:23:20.539
into the future waymo i've never examined your

00:23:20.539 --> 00:23:22.720
resume yeah anthony there's a lot of interesting

00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:28.740
stuff there now it's years of trauma i uh i'm

00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:31.039
i'm against recycling because i had to work when

00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:33.319
people would Bring in their bottles for the five

00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:36.000
cent deposit. I'd have to sort them and people

00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:39.599
would do horrible things. Horrible things. But

00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:41.940
that's that's that's a different safety podcast.

00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.079
OK, this is an article from CNN titled Driving

00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:49.980
Like Teenagers. Waymo robo taxis have run red

00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:52.319
lights and nearly hit pedestrians. CNN finds.

00:23:52.940 --> 00:23:54.660
Yeah, I wonder how they found that. There's one

00:23:54.660 --> 00:23:58.200
on YouTube. Quoting from the article, Waymo told

00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:01.700
CNN its robo taxis have already made roads safer

00:24:01.700 --> 00:24:04.640
and are better than human drivers, especially

00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:08.420
when it matters the most. They are 13. They are

00:24:08.420 --> 00:24:10.960
13 times less likely to be involved in serious

00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:13.759
injury crashes, the company said, and its own

00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:16.779
peer reviewed research concluded that typical

00:24:16.779 --> 00:24:18.640
human drivers would have gotten in more than

00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:22.440
500 additional injury causing crashes. over the

00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.900
more than 170 million miles driven by Waymo vehicles.

00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:31.859
The amount of wrong with that. The laziness of

00:24:31.859 --> 00:24:34.920
the CNN people cutting and pasting from Waymo

00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:38.420
press releases. And, Fred, is there a particular

00:24:38.420 --> 00:24:42.680
part of that quote that you have offense to?

00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:47.779
Well, except for all of it, no. Really? Because

00:24:47.779 --> 00:24:51.720
I thought the, where is it? The company said,

00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:56.480
and its own peer -reviewed research. I always

00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:59.900
love that. I always love it. Dear journalist,

00:24:59.900 --> 00:25:02.759
stop. I'm surprised you can earn a living being

00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:06.759
this lazy. Really. You know, they just pop up

00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:11.279
their AI agent and they say, well, you know,

00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:14.380
what's the story? And the AI agent repeats the

00:25:14.380 --> 00:25:17.700
propaganda that's populating all of these databases

00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:23.700
due to... Waymo's parent. It's amazing. And for

00:25:23.700 --> 00:25:26.019
those who aren't familiar with how AI works,

00:25:26.259 --> 00:25:30.500
basically, it looks at buckets full of data and

00:25:30.500 --> 00:25:33.359
says, okay, what's the most common data that's

00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.220
in here? And so if you want to skew the results

00:25:36.220 --> 00:25:39.579
somehow, all you do is you use your machinery,

00:25:39.700 --> 00:25:42.619
and Google certainly has a lot of it, to put

00:25:42.619 --> 00:25:47.160
endless repetitions of false data into the AI

00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:51.099
database. Then when some third party references

00:25:51.099 --> 00:25:55.599
the AI database through Clod or Glide or whatever

00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:59.299
the hell those are called, or Microsoft AI, what

00:25:59.299 --> 00:26:01.539
it does is it looks into the barrel and says,

00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:04.539
what's the most common thing in here? And it

00:26:04.539 --> 00:26:06.880
says, oh, the most common thing is a dead goldfish.

00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:09.099
So it says, all right, that's the answer, dead

00:26:09.099 --> 00:26:14.339
goldfish. That's what this CNN correspondent.

00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:17.660
Even the New York Times correspondents apparently

00:26:17.660 --> 00:26:20.859
are doing. I guess they must have a quota they've

00:26:20.859 --> 00:26:24.480
got to fill. Of stupidity? Maybe Judy Miller

00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:27.099
is just writing under a different name now. I

00:26:27.099 --> 00:26:29.859
mean, look, that was basically the quote that

00:26:29.859 --> 00:26:32.559
Waymo gave them, right? They asked Waymo a question

00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:36.319
and Waymo said. Spit that out. But this is not.

00:26:36.940 --> 00:26:39.180
Yeah, this is not presented as a quote from a

00:26:39.180 --> 00:26:43.240
Waymo spokesperson. This is just lazy, lazy CNN

00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:45.539
cutting and pasting, saying it's peer reviewed

00:26:45.539 --> 00:26:48.259
research because, you know, I work in this department

00:26:48.259 --> 00:26:52.180
at Waymo. My partner at the desk next to me said,

00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:54.519
yeah, it looks good. That's their version of

00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:58.799
peer reviewed. Well, it is. It is sad and startling

00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:01.839
that people have so perverted the idea of peer

00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:05.170
review. That is now just another propaganda item.

00:27:05.329 --> 00:27:08.130
It used to mean something. And so let's give

00:27:08.130 --> 00:27:10.630
the CNN report the benefit of the doubt that

00:27:10.630 --> 00:27:14.509
they are still naively believing that peer review

00:27:14.509 --> 00:27:17.890
means something important. But now you've got

00:27:17.890 --> 00:27:19.730
to dive in. You've got to say, who are the peers

00:27:19.730 --> 00:27:22.589
and what exactly did they review? And people

00:27:22.589 --> 00:27:29.769
should do that before they purport to offer proof

00:27:29.769 --> 00:27:34.200
to the... public that's relying upon your integrity

00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:37.299
but uh you know if your integrity is based upon

00:27:37.299 --> 00:27:41.180
somebody else's lack of integrity you got a problem

00:27:41.180 --> 00:27:44.859
yeah i i want to know if the way most pr people

00:27:44.859 --> 00:27:50.240
they know there are they naive stupid or just

00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:53.460
actively participating in bullshit i don't know

00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:56.339
oh it's the latter it's got to be the latter

00:27:56.339 --> 00:27:58.319
because the engine i've met a lot of the engineers

00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:00.380
there and the engineers are good they're competent

00:28:00.380 --> 00:28:03.940
people They understand what they're doing. But,

00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:06.440
you know, the PR folks are sorting through the

00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:09.339
results and saying, well, this doesn't look right

00:28:09.339 --> 00:28:13.839
to me because it's not laudatory enough. So there's

00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:16.079
a lot of p -hacking that's going on. The p -hacking

00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:19.819
is, I'm sure, not at the behest of the best engineers.

00:28:20.539 --> 00:28:23.299
It's at the behest of somebody who understands

00:28:23.299 --> 00:28:28.259
how to sort through data to find the answer that

00:28:28.259 --> 00:28:29.940
you're looking for. I don't know if you're a

00:28:29.940 --> 00:28:32.299
fan of Doonesbury, but they've got a company

00:28:32.299 --> 00:28:35.259
on Doonesbury called MyFacts where you can call

00:28:35.259 --> 00:28:38.180
up and get any kind of facts that you want validated

00:28:38.180 --> 00:28:42.940
by the company. It's a great business. I didn't

00:28:42.940 --> 00:28:45.039
know that. I met Gary Trudeau once, but that's

00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:47.359
a different story. So further down in this article,

00:28:47.539 --> 00:28:48.960
I'm going to quote because this is going to tie

00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:51.380
us into our next story, which drove me up the

00:28:51.380 --> 00:28:53.900
wall this morning. Further down in the CNN article,

00:28:54.099 --> 00:28:57.200
when problems arise, Waymo has 70 remote assistance

00:28:57.200 --> 00:29:00.819
agents on call at any point in time for its fleet

00:29:00.819 --> 00:29:03.740
of nearly 4 ,000 vehicles, the company recently

00:29:03.740 --> 00:29:06.539
said. These operators, half of whom are based

00:29:06.539 --> 00:29:09.279
in the Philippines, where Waymo does not operate,

00:29:09.500 --> 00:29:11.640
have the ability to provide real -time advice

00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:13.759
to the vehicles, though they do not take over

00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:17.240
driving, and Waymo would not tell CNN how often

00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:20.900
they need to intervene. So they got 70 remote...

00:29:21.289 --> 00:29:26.210
drivers for 4 ,000 vehicles on the road. That's

00:29:26.210 --> 00:29:29.170
not even a rounding error. That's just a smudge.

00:29:29.190 --> 00:29:32.410
You just wipe off your little fact sheet there.

00:29:32.990 --> 00:29:35.390
And with that, I mean, I'm going to jump to this

00:29:35.390 --> 00:29:37.349
next article, which I think Michael sent around

00:29:37.349 --> 00:29:40.490
this morning, titled Body Cam Shows Cop Trying

00:29:40.490 --> 00:29:43.630
to Move Stalled Waymo That's Blocking Firefighters

00:29:43.630 --> 00:29:46.789
Rushing to an Explosion. Watch this video. It

00:29:46.789 --> 00:29:49.990
is three and a half minutes long. It is outstanding.

00:29:51.259 --> 00:29:54.259
You see this cop in, I believe it was Dallas,

00:29:54.460 --> 00:29:56.819
trying to move a Waymo that stalled in the middle

00:29:56.819 --> 00:29:58.819
of the street while fire trucks, there's an active

00:29:58.819 --> 00:30:01.420
fire scene, big industrial fire, trying to get

00:30:01.420 --> 00:30:04.599
it out of there. The guy, I'm gonna look at my

00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:08.099
notes here. Where did it go? Basically he takes,

00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:13.160
okay. So the cop is trying to talk to Waymo support

00:30:13.160 --> 00:30:15.359
because there's no one in the vehicle and he

00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:17.960
takes over one minute to connect with support.

00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.720
Over one minute before someone starts responding,

00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:24.660
And their responses are, can you give me another

00:30:24.660 --> 00:30:27.240
minute? Who are you? What's your badge number?

00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:29.380
And the cop saying, I need you to move this vehicle

00:30:29.380 --> 00:30:31.759
immediately. I need you. He's trying to unlock

00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:33.920
the door. He can't. And he's like, let me in.

00:30:33.980 --> 00:30:36.519
I will move the vehicle for you. Again, this

00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:40.720
is an active first responder incident. This is

00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:43.779
causing a problem. It takes three and a half

00:30:43.779 --> 00:30:46.460
minutes in total, which doesn't sound like a

00:30:46.460 --> 00:30:49.480
lot. But in a fire scene, that's a lot. for the

00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:52.299
cop to get into the car and the cop to move the

00:30:52.299 --> 00:30:57.859
vehicle. That's unacceptable on any level. Again,

00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:01.319
imagine there's a human in the vehicle and they're

00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:05.279
wasting that much time of a cop. The cop at this

00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:08.180
point has pulled you physically out of the vehicle

00:31:08.180 --> 00:31:11.460
if for some reason you're rebelling and not responding

00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:13.940
to his commands. Instead, you're like, what's

00:31:13.940 --> 00:31:16.900
your name? Can you spell it? What organization

00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:18.700
are you with? Because that's what Waymo support

00:31:18.700 --> 00:31:21.559
is wasting over a minute doing. How do you spell

00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:24.119
your name? What's your badge number? I don't

00:31:24.119 --> 00:31:25.819
know if I can give you access to this vehicle.

00:31:26.059 --> 00:31:29.759
It is beyond insane. This is literally lighting

00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:33.400
taxpayers dollars on fire. This is an officer.

00:31:33.500 --> 00:31:36.480
The town has spent, you know, six figures on

00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.619
at least training to do their job. And they're

00:31:39.619 --> 00:31:44.960
being treated like a valet. Like it's it is.

00:31:45.549 --> 00:31:48.049
It really got my blood to boil this morning as

00:31:48.049 --> 00:31:53.470
I watched this video. There clearly needs to

00:31:53.470 --> 00:31:56.970
be something quicker there than going to a chat

00:31:56.970 --> 00:32:01.049
agent when a cop is there trying to clear a road

00:32:01.049 --> 00:32:04.829
for emergency vehicles to go through. When he

00:32:04.829 --> 00:32:07.029
connects the support, it starts off with, we're

00:32:07.029 --> 00:32:09.750
connecting you with Waymo support. This message

00:32:09.750 --> 00:32:13.730
may be recorded and monitored for customer service.

00:32:14.859 --> 00:32:18.119
What the hell? It should be a direct line to

00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:21.000
a human and their emergency operations, right?

00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:24.579
I mean, this scenario shouldn't happen. Move

00:32:24.579 --> 00:32:29.160
your fucking car. Like, what is happening? Remember,

00:32:29.339 --> 00:32:31.839
they have a whole triage mechanism ahead of their

00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:36.720
response. So they've got, what, each of their

00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:40.059
responders has got 35, 40 cars, something like

00:32:40.059 --> 00:32:43.079
that. So they've got to sort through all of these.

00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.240
before they can get it to the right person. So

00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:48.160
that's what's going on in the background, right?

00:32:48.299 --> 00:32:51.000
And then they've got to do 20 questions to figure

00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:53.740
out what's going on, develop their situational

00:32:53.740 --> 00:32:58.619
awareness. So it's terrible enough when this

00:32:58.619 --> 00:33:00.940
happens in a situation like this. But, you know,

00:33:01.059 --> 00:33:04.220
the police have nothing more important to do

00:33:04.220 --> 00:33:07.420
than drive Waymos around, right? There's no other

00:33:07.420 --> 00:33:11.460
good thing for them to do. So that's all perfect.

00:33:13.369 --> 00:33:17.130
Think of the car that suddenly has, well, hits

00:33:17.130 --> 00:33:20.190
a deer, we'll say. It's going down the road 50

00:33:20.190 --> 00:33:24.190
miles an hour, hits a deer. What do you do? Because

00:33:24.190 --> 00:33:26.930
I've had this experience, and the deer completely

00:33:26.930 --> 00:33:29.529
destroys the windshield. It destroys all the

00:33:29.529 --> 00:33:33.210
sensors. The car is going 50 miles an hour, and

00:33:33.210 --> 00:33:36.289
a report goes through to their support staff,

00:33:36.470 --> 00:33:39.269
and you've got a minute to figure out what to

00:33:39.269 --> 00:33:43.579
do. You're dead at this point. Because there's

00:33:43.579 --> 00:33:46.180
no way in the world that that support system

00:33:46.180 --> 00:33:51.160
can effectively protect you in a situation like

00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:53.960
that. It's got an emergency evolving as the car

00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:58.279
is running. It's absolute madness. And I'm going

00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:01.920
to have, this is going to be my first gaslight.

00:34:02.059 --> 00:34:05.220
I'm doing this right now, changing it up as an

00:34:05.220 --> 00:34:08.579
audible. This is my gaslight. Waymo being we're

00:34:08.579 --> 00:34:10.760
safer than humans. And I know I won't went off

00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:13.099
of this and that we have remote assistance agents

00:34:13.099 --> 00:34:15.280
available for you and they'll handle things.

00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:17.599
Cause you're saying, I know Fred, you're being

00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:19.400
sarcastic. You know, what else could a cop do?

00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:21.179
Well, he has nothing else to do. You can watch

00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:22.920
in this video while he's trying to deal with

00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:25.539
Waymo support to unlock the vehicle and let him

00:34:25.539 --> 00:34:28.420
move it. He's also guiding traffic down this

00:34:28.420 --> 00:34:32.039
road. Like this poor guy is like doing, you know,

00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:35.599
having to deal with, you know, some Waymo stupid

00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:38.619
support. you know, vehicle situation nonsense

00:34:38.619 --> 00:34:42.199
and telling people to actively stay away from,

00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:46.840
you know, from a fire hazard. It's, it's, it's,

00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:50.460
yeah. Waymo, if they only had some money, cause

00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:52.920
you know, they're, you know, basically just burning

00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:55.719
taxpayer dollars for their experiment because

00:34:55.719 --> 00:34:57.760
a bunch of people in Silicon Valley have issues

00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:01.420
with talking to strangers. Yeah. And I mean,

00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:05.179
and don't forget that their entire political

00:35:05.179 --> 00:35:08.550
movements, suggest that they just want to eliminate

00:35:08.550 --> 00:35:13.210
local control over anything, right? They want

00:35:13.210 --> 00:35:15.210
to preempt states from being able to tell them

00:35:15.210 --> 00:35:18.570
what to do, even when they're creating havoc

00:35:18.570 --> 00:35:22.750
on streets in some situations. So my solution

00:35:22.750 --> 00:35:25.530
is you need to figure out all your problems,

00:35:25.670 --> 00:35:27.750
whatever state you're in, just like the rest

00:35:27.750 --> 00:35:32.150
of us human drivers. Right. I applaud this officer

00:35:32.150 --> 00:35:33.949
because he actually, like, he moves this car.

00:35:34.510 --> 00:35:36.550
and drives it away and says great i parked it

00:35:36.550 --> 00:35:39.150
here for you guys uh and he's still checking

00:35:39.150 --> 00:35:41.630
with the waymo support person which you know

00:35:41.630 --> 00:35:43.570
like is this okay with you are you good with

00:35:43.570 --> 00:35:46.050
that i would have driven that car up onto a lawn

00:35:46.050 --> 00:35:48.869
and just left it it's like left the door because

00:35:48.869 --> 00:35:50.750
you have other things that are more important

00:35:50.750 --> 00:35:53.110
to deal with than some guy in a call center and

00:35:53.110 --> 00:35:55.789
where is it north dakota i can't remember him

00:35:55.789 --> 00:35:58.550
to respond and you know ask me how to spell my

00:35:58.550 --> 00:36:01.550
name again that's my gas light I hate Waymo.

00:36:01.670 --> 00:36:04.070
This is bullshit. I wonder if they asked the

00:36:04.070 --> 00:36:10.170
cop to like and subscribe. All right. Who else

00:36:10.170 --> 00:36:12.130
has got a gaslight? Because don't worry. I'll

00:36:12.130 --> 00:36:15.250
have another one for next week. Similar theme

00:36:15.250 --> 00:36:19.269
is Zooks. Oh. So we haven't talked about our

00:36:19.269 --> 00:36:21.489
friend in Zooks in a while. So I went to the

00:36:21.489 --> 00:36:24.070
website to see what's up there with safety. And

00:36:24.070 --> 00:36:26.750
the first thing I noticed going into it is they

00:36:26.750 --> 00:36:29.150
do not give you any option to reject cookies

00:36:29.150 --> 00:36:32.909
on their website. So they're already selling

00:36:32.909 --> 00:36:36.969
your data and monetizing you before you even

00:36:36.969 --> 00:36:41.150
think about signing up for a Zoox ride. So that's

00:36:41.150 --> 00:36:44.610
kind of shitty. A couple of quotes from their

00:36:44.610 --> 00:36:47.610
website. Our safety strategy prevents collisions

00:36:47.610 --> 00:36:50.389
in the first place and comprehensively protects

00:36:50.389 --> 00:36:53.130
passengers when they're unavoidable. Well, that

00:36:53.130 --> 00:36:56.309
sounds pretty good. No single point of failure.

00:36:56.530 --> 00:36:59.820
Well, that sounds pretty good. Except... Who

00:36:59.820 --> 00:37:02.320
is looking at that? And, you know, single points

00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:05.119
of failure often come back to bite you that you

00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.239
don't expect to find. For example, when there

00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:10.539
was power out in San Francisco and the entire

00:37:10.539 --> 00:37:14.099
Waymo fleet went down, this is a bold claim.

00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:18.699
And I don't know. I didn't see any evidence that

00:37:18.699 --> 00:37:20.460
they've got any independent support for that.

00:37:20.980 --> 00:37:24.000
They say it's a new bar for safety. Zoox protects

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.079
all riders equally with over 100 safety innovations.

00:37:28.090 --> 00:37:30.949
that don't exist in conventional cards, including

00:37:30.949 --> 00:37:33.989
seatbelt monitors, an innovative airbag system,

00:37:34.170 --> 00:37:37.710
and a safety -focused active suspension. Well,

00:37:37.809 --> 00:37:39.909
one of the reasons they've got a hundred safety

00:37:39.909 --> 00:37:42.949
innovations is because there are no federal motor

00:37:42.949 --> 00:37:46.130
vehicle safety standards that are applicable

00:37:46.130 --> 00:37:50.489
to the unique aspects of AV operation. So per

00:37:50.489 --> 00:37:52.530
their website, none of those hundred features

00:37:52.530 --> 00:37:55.630
were designed or built in conformance with the

00:37:55.630 --> 00:37:58.420
standards because they don't exist. or validated

00:37:58.420 --> 00:38:01.380
by independent audit. Next quote is building

00:38:01.380 --> 00:38:04.320
the safest possible ride. Well, that's simply

00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:06.619
not true. Conformity with established safety

00:38:06.619 --> 00:38:10.920
protocols, such as UL 4600, has apparently neither

00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:14.420
been attempted nor achieved. Instead, Zoox sought

00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:19.219
and received an FMVSS exemption from NISA so

00:38:19.219 --> 00:38:22.800
that they won't have to conform to any safety

00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:26.840
standards. And Michael, I think you noted that

00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:30.320
The exemption they got has never before been

00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:34.179
applied to this kind of vehicle. Special exemption

00:38:34.179 --> 00:38:38.639
from the secretary. Their exemption request to

00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:42.980
be able to deploy the vehicles commercially under

00:38:42.980 --> 00:38:47.820
a temporary exemption, that's part 5 .5 of NHTSA's

00:38:47.820 --> 00:38:52.119
exemption authority, is still pending. So currently

00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:55.809
they're... They received a demonstration special

00:38:55.809 --> 00:38:57.610
exemption from the Secretary of Transportation

00:38:57.610 --> 00:39:01.869
that allows them to operate, but they can't operate

00:39:01.869 --> 00:39:05.349
commercially and take riders until they get the

00:39:05.349 --> 00:39:10.329
proper exemption. Thanks. Yeah. So there's no

00:39:10.329 --> 00:39:13.210
notification on the website if you want to sign

00:39:13.210 --> 00:39:17.170
up for a ride that you are riding in a vehicle

00:39:17.170 --> 00:39:20.789
that does not conform to existing safety standards,

00:39:20.989 --> 00:39:25.050
which seems to me. contrary to establishing the

00:39:25.050 --> 00:39:29.670
safest possible vehicles. So they failed to mention

00:39:29.670 --> 00:39:32.789
they've got the exemption. There are no applicable

00:39:32.789 --> 00:39:37.369
standards for AV operations. And noting also

00:39:37.369 --> 00:39:39.909
that their terms of service prohibit lawsuits

00:39:39.909 --> 00:39:43.630
or participation in class action lawsuits by

00:39:43.630 --> 00:39:47.630
any passenger who's injured by the Waymo. So

00:39:47.630 --> 00:39:51.989
I'm giving their safety claims a big gaslight.

00:39:53.130 --> 00:39:56.789
Okay, so you mentioned a unique airbags in the

00:39:56.789 --> 00:40:00.750
Zoox, and that, of course, scared me. Do you

00:40:00.750 --> 00:40:03.650
have any more information on that? I do not,

00:40:03.690 --> 00:40:05.969
and none is offered. And they just say that they've

00:40:05.969 --> 00:40:10.550
got all these airbags, and they don't talk about

00:40:10.550 --> 00:40:13.289
how they work or where they're applied. Yeah,

00:40:13.349 --> 00:40:15.329
they're very novel airbags. They've got these

00:40:15.329 --> 00:40:19.670
horseshoe airbags that deploy from the roof and

00:40:19.670 --> 00:40:23.309
the seats. compartmentalized passengers. A lot

00:40:23.309 --> 00:40:25.190
of this is because I think that the seating in

00:40:25.190 --> 00:40:30.269
the Zooks is sideways, too. So there aren't a

00:40:30.269 --> 00:40:33.809
lot of vehicles developed that way. You know,

00:40:33.829 --> 00:40:37.090
almost all the safety standards that apply to

00:40:37.090 --> 00:40:39.489
passenger protection and crash worthiness envision

00:40:39.489 --> 00:40:45.409
forward -facing seats. So... All right. And to

00:40:45.409 --> 00:40:50.059
explain why that's significant. The Zoox, it

00:40:50.059 --> 00:40:52.619
goes equally well forward and reverse, or there

00:40:52.619 --> 00:40:54.440
is no forward and reverse, I should say. It goes

00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:58.420
in both longitudinal directions equally, depending

00:40:58.420 --> 00:41:01.300
on some decision process that's not obvious.

00:41:01.539 --> 00:41:06.320
So what Michael said is absolutely right, because

00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:09.119
all the standards associated with forward -facing

00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:11.860
seats, if you don't have forward -facing seats,

00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:14.579
what do you do? And so they're making it up as

00:41:14.579 --> 00:41:22.230
they go along. you know, 100 years worth of crash

00:41:22.230 --> 00:41:26.929
testing and injury prevention that's looked specifically

00:41:26.929 --> 00:41:31.429
at forward facing seats and not at the sideways

00:41:31.429 --> 00:41:33.309
seats, certainly not at some of the other things

00:41:33.309 --> 00:41:36.050
autonomous companies are proposing, like swiveling

00:41:36.050 --> 00:41:38.949
seats and, you know, the campfire seating and

00:41:38.949 --> 00:41:43.130
things like that. So there is a lot of testing

00:41:43.130 --> 00:41:45.250
and validation of those seating systems that

00:41:45.250 --> 00:41:48.460
has yet to be done to ensure that they're as

00:41:48.460 --> 00:41:50.920
protective as current forward -facing seats.

00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:53.780
And I would like to point out too, Fred, that

00:41:53.780 --> 00:41:57.420
the inability, cookies does not necessarily mean

00:41:57.420 --> 00:41:59.480
that they're selling your privacy. The Center

00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:01.539
for Auto Safety website uses cookies and some

00:42:01.539 --> 00:42:04.380
of it's for security tracking issues and things

00:42:04.380 --> 00:42:06.219
of that nature. And we're not selling your data,

00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:09.199
I promise. And the next revision of the New York

00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:12.179
Auto Safety website will use even less cookies.

00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:13.820
There'll still be ones there for security issues

00:42:13.820 --> 00:42:17.480
though. The reason I noted that is because Usually

00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:19.940
when you go to a website, it gives you the option

00:42:19.940 --> 00:42:24.179
of rejecting the cookies. And I don't know about

00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:27.099
ours. Zooks has no option to reject the cookies.

00:42:27.179 --> 00:42:30.380
So you're in whether you want to be or not. And

00:42:30.380 --> 00:42:34.280
I find that personally offensive. Okay. I understand.

00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:38.539
Yeah. Well, you know, we're tracking you on autosafety

00:42:38.539 --> 00:42:40.320
.org. Not you as an individual, because I don't

00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:42.739
care about you as an individual. Anyway, Michael,

00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:47.119
gaslight me. Gaslight year. My gaslight of the

00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:53.699
week is the state of Texas. Michael wins. So

00:42:53.699 --> 00:42:56.599
Texas did what, you know, on the surface looks

00:42:56.599 --> 00:42:58.340
like a great thing, right? They passed a law

00:42:58.340 --> 00:43:02.099
last year that says we want all of our school

00:43:02.099 --> 00:43:05.179
buses to have three point seatbelts now. And,

00:43:05.179 --> 00:43:08.760
you know, and all of the school districts who

00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:11.110
are operating out there. You know, there's a

00:43:11.110 --> 00:43:14.650
mix of bus seatbelts in Texas. They've had a

00:43:14.650 --> 00:43:17.170
two -point seatbelt requirement for years. They

00:43:17.170 --> 00:43:19.130
want to move to the more protective three -point

00:43:19.130 --> 00:43:22.349
seatbelts. And then there's still some vehicles

00:43:22.349 --> 00:43:24.849
on the road that are grandfathered in in Texas

00:43:24.849 --> 00:43:26.969
that don't have any seatbelts at all. So the

00:43:26.969 --> 00:43:28.469
legislature came and said, look, we've got to

00:43:28.469 --> 00:43:30.650
resolve this. We're going to force everybody

00:43:30.650 --> 00:43:33.530
by 2029 or 2030, I think it is, to have these

00:43:33.530 --> 00:43:36.789
three -point seatbelts. The problem here, and

00:43:36.789 --> 00:43:39.510
the reason this is my gaslight is because they

00:43:39.510 --> 00:43:44.050
did that, but they provided zero funds for school

00:43:44.050 --> 00:43:47.530
districts to do this. And it can be, as we often

00:43:47.530 --> 00:43:49.829
discuss, we talk about school bus seatbelts and

00:43:49.829 --> 00:43:52.510
school districts. It can be incredibly expensive

00:43:52.510 --> 00:43:54.570
to do this. You're talking about retrofitting

00:43:54.570 --> 00:43:57.469
some vehicles that are 20, almost 30 years old

00:43:57.469 --> 00:44:00.929
in some cases with new seatbelts, you know, in

00:44:00.929 --> 00:44:03.690
however many positions there are on a school

00:44:03.690 --> 00:44:07.590
bus, 40 different seating positions. So it's

00:44:07.590 --> 00:44:13.539
a significant investment. And, you know, school

00:44:13.539 --> 00:44:16.300
districts have long been opposed to the school

00:44:16.300 --> 00:44:19.440
bus seatbelts being put into place across the

00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:21.380
United States because of this exact problem.

00:44:22.019 --> 00:44:24.860
When you address that legislatively, like they

00:44:24.860 --> 00:44:27.360
have in Texas, you've got to address the big

00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:29.800
sticking point and the problem here, which is

00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:32.000
the fact that school districts can't afford to

00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.179
do this. And it's not at the top of their list

00:44:34.179 --> 00:44:42.679
of priorities. essentially creating an unfunded

00:44:42.679 --> 00:44:45.980
mandate. They mandated that school districts

00:44:45.980 --> 00:44:50.300
comply in the next three to four years, but they

00:44:50.300 --> 00:44:52.539
didn't give them any money to allow them to comply.

00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:55.000
So that's a problem. I think it needs to be resolved,

00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:59.760
hopefully, by the Texas legislature, by budgeting

00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:01.679
some money to local school districts that can

00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:05.500
allow them to proceed. Once that's done, Texas

00:45:05.500 --> 00:45:10.860
will have the, if not the strongest, one of the

00:45:10.860 --> 00:45:12.960
strongest school bus seatbelt laws in the country.

00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:16.400
All right. And with that, listeners, Gaslight

00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:18.059
scoring is similar to the Olympics where you

00:45:18.059 --> 00:45:20.940
get points for difficulty. Mine was the least

00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:23.579
difficult because it was Waymo. Fred's second

00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:26.380
least difficult because, again, Zooks and AV

00:45:26.380 --> 00:45:28.079
companies are just, you know, it's like playing

00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:30.119
whack -a -mole. So, Michael, you win because

00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:32.179
you went after the entire state of Texas, even

00:45:32.179 --> 00:45:34.119
though the recycling camp or their litter campaign

00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:39.219
was don't mess with Texas. Good. That's my first

00:45:39.219 --> 00:45:42.420
win in months, it feels like. Well, now you won

00:45:42.420 --> 00:45:45.320
a couple weeks ago, I think. I think. And with

00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:48.300
that, Fred, are you ready for some towel? Sure.

00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:55.619
Hit me. There was a notice this week that I think

00:45:55.619 --> 00:45:58.119
it's Toyota, is it? That's going to have a demonstration

00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:02.320
Formula One vehicle that's powered by liquid

00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:05.639
hydrogen run a few laps in an upcoming race.

00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:08.440
What was it? Wait, Toyota doesn't make F1 cars.

00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:11.039
Oh, but I think they made this demonstration

00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:14.420
vehicle. Anyway. And it's Toyota. Oh, neat. It's

00:46:14.420 --> 00:46:17.659
at Le Mans. Oh, that's not F1. Okay. No. Okay.

00:46:20.710 --> 00:46:23.489
That's my ignorance or racing. That's okay. But

00:46:23.489 --> 00:46:26.170
anyway, we want to talk about liquid hydrogen

00:46:26.170 --> 00:46:30.329
as a fuel and why it might be a good idea and

00:46:30.329 --> 00:46:34.309
why it might not be a good idea. So one of the

00:46:34.309 --> 00:46:37.690
things that is good about liquid hydrogen is

00:46:37.690 --> 00:46:42.190
that if you burn it in an engine, it doesn't

00:46:42.190 --> 00:46:44.949
release any carbon dioxide. So that's good. It

00:46:44.949 --> 00:46:50.159
does release some. Nitrous oxides, NOx, as it's

00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:53.179
called. So why haven't we always been using this?

00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:56.679
The good part is hydrogen has the highest energy

00:46:56.679 --> 00:47:03.380
per mass of any fuel at 120 megajoules per kilogram.

00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:09.619
I won't bother with the units. But in comparison,

00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:15.340
okay, liquid hydrogen is gravimetric, meaning

00:47:15.340 --> 00:47:21.230
per kilogram. 120. Gasoline is 46. So that's

00:47:21.230 --> 00:47:25.690
less than half, around a third. Liquid natural

00:47:25.690 --> 00:47:30.010
gas is around 50. And compressed natural gas

00:47:30.010 --> 00:47:33.329
is about the same, 50 per kilogram. Well, it

00:47:33.329 --> 00:47:35.130
should be because it's the same fuel, right,

00:47:35.170 --> 00:47:38.230
per kilogram. But if you look at the volumetric

00:47:38.230 --> 00:47:41.349
energy, which is the energy that you can actually

00:47:41.349 --> 00:47:45.159
fit inside a volume for storage. Liquid hydrogen

00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:49.559
is at 8 .5 megajoules per liter. Gasoline is

00:47:49.559 --> 00:47:53.239
32, which means you can put about four times

00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:56.739
as much energy in gasoline into a given volume

00:47:56.739 --> 00:48:01.320
than you can liquid hydrogen. Liquid natural

00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:05.500
gas is about 22, so again, that's three times

00:48:05.500 --> 00:48:09.320
as high as liquid hydrogen, roughly, and compressed

00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:12.599
natural gas is at nine, which is roughly the

00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:16.500
same. as liquid hydrogen so the net of that is

00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:20.639
that liquid hydrogen can provide much more energy

00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:24.699
on the basis of weight but much less energy for

00:48:24.699 --> 00:48:28.079
a given tank on the basis of volume that's why

00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:30.300
it's great for rockets because rockets are really

00:48:30.300 --> 00:48:33.659
big and so you can store a lot of uh a lot of

00:48:33.659 --> 00:48:36.960
fuel in there that's why they're maybe reluctant

00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:39.739
for gasoline because you are for conventional

00:48:39.739 --> 00:48:43.409
cars because you have to have a really big tank

00:48:43.409 --> 00:48:45.809
to hold all the liquid hydrogen. Plus, it's really

00:48:45.809 --> 00:48:52.550
cold. And so you need a special tank, very strong,

00:48:52.670 --> 00:48:54.630
much stronger than a gasoline tank, which could,

00:48:54.670 --> 00:48:58.510
for example, be made out of plastic. You're never

00:48:58.510 --> 00:49:00.769
going to get away with that with hydrogen. And

00:49:00.769 --> 00:49:05.090
the hydrogen engine is different than a conventional

00:49:05.090 --> 00:49:08.630
gasoline engine because of the burning characteristics

00:49:08.630 --> 00:49:11.690
of the hydrogen. There's a lot of potential there.

00:49:12.250 --> 00:49:14.230
But you've also got to deal with the fact that

00:49:14.230 --> 00:49:17.409
gasoline got there first. And so there's a nationwide

00:49:17.409 --> 00:49:20.469
or actually worldwide distribution system for

00:49:20.469 --> 00:49:23.429
gasoline. And you can just pull up to a pump

00:49:23.429 --> 00:49:26.929
anywhere and it'll do about the same thing. But

00:49:26.929 --> 00:49:29.949
much more limited distribution for liquid hydrogen.

00:49:30.949 --> 00:49:35.929
And you've also got to look at the overall cycle

00:49:35.929 --> 00:49:38.469
for producing it. And most liquid hydrogen is

00:49:38.469 --> 00:49:42.010
made from natural gas. There are very few, and

00:49:42.010 --> 00:49:43.969
until recently people thought there were none,

00:49:44.050 --> 00:49:46.829
but there are very few wells that you can drill

00:49:46.829 --> 00:49:49.949
in the earth to get a hydrogen supply. Turns

00:49:49.949 --> 00:49:53.150
out there are some, but they're only in the very

00:49:53.150 --> 00:49:55.889
early stages of exploiting that. So those are

00:49:55.889 --> 00:49:57.929
the kind of pros and cons of a liquid hydrogen

00:49:57.929 --> 00:50:02.389
fuel. It could provide a lot more energy. I'm

00:50:02.389 --> 00:50:04.309
just kind of surprised they don't use it in dragsters

00:50:04.309 --> 00:50:07.469
because it can put so much energy in and has

00:50:07.469 --> 00:50:10.079
much higher. burning temperatures and therefore

00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:16.539
potentially much higher power than a hydrogen

00:50:16.539 --> 00:50:19.820
carbon -fueled engine. But you've got a big problem

00:50:19.820 --> 00:50:22.639
with the amount of volume you need in the tank

00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:26.900
to make it go. There's a couple of things here

00:50:26.900 --> 00:50:29.000
that I was wondering about. I mean, when we've

00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:31.840
talked about hydrogen cars previously, we're

00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:35.159
talking about the ones that are powered by gas

00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:38.210
hydrogen, right? Gas is hydrogen, yeah. Yeah,

00:50:38.230 --> 00:50:41.769
and that seems to be something that's, to me

00:50:41.769 --> 00:50:43.130
at least, that seems like something that could

00:50:43.130 --> 00:50:46.110
be more readily stored and distributed and transported

00:50:46.110 --> 00:50:48.929
and, you know, become part of the infrastructure

00:50:48.929 --> 00:50:53.269
than liquid hydrogen, which, you know, I think

00:50:53.269 --> 00:50:56.530
you have to store it at like negative 423 degrees

00:50:56.530 --> 00:51:00.449
Fahrenheit at the facility it's being kept at,

00:51:00.489 --> 00:51:05.090
plus in the car. And that seems just like a remarkably

00:51:05.090 --> 00:51:07.969
low temperature to have to maintain. Yeah, it's

00:51:07.969 --> 00:51:11.050
hard. Of course, it's also very high pressure

00:51:11.050 --> 00:51:16.489
too. So the scientific way of approaching the

00:51:16.489 --> 00:51:19.409
temperature is to think of it in terms of absolute

00:51:19.409 --> 00:51:24.349
zero, where if absolute zero is zero, meaning

00:51:24.349 --> 00:51:27.170
no thermal energy at all, liquid hydrogen is

00:51:27.170 --> 00:51:33.789
at about 20 degrees Kelvin, which is minus 273

00:51:33.789 --> 00:51:40.369
degrees. Standard units, SI units. Hydrogen is

00:51:40.369 --> 00:51:43.210
a minus 20. Liquid nitrogen, which you see in

00:51:43.210 --> 00:51:47.489
a lot of offices, is at 70, I think 73 degrees

00:51:47.489 --> 00:51:51.690
Kelvin, if I remember right. So that can be stored

00:51:51.690 --> 00:51:54.829
in what's called a dewar, which is like a fancy

00:51:54.829 --> 00:52:01.630
thermos bottle. And hydrogen isn't as storable

00:52:01.630 --> 00:52:06.739
because it's a little bit colder. Yeah, in both

00:52:06.739 --> 00:52:10.159
cases, it's a cryogenic fluid, cryogenic temperature.

00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:14.280
Does keeping it at that temperature result in

00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:17.639
energy losses that kind of invalidate the entire

00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:21.500
exercise? It just seems like it would require

00:52:21.500 --> 00:52:24.679
a lot of energy to keep hydrogen at that temperature.

00:52:25.300 --> 00:52:30.760
When you say energy, it implies over a long term.

00:52:30.820 --> 00:52:32.360
So it depends on how long you're going to store

00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:36.179
it. Right. Depending on the application, it might

00:52:36.179 --> 00:52:38.079
work, it might not work. Like if you've got a

00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:41.460
ship and you wanted to have a cargo ship traveling

00:52:41.460 --> 00:52:44.980
to another country, it might make sense because

00:52:44.980 --> 00:52:49.039
you could have a gigantic tank. And when you

00:52:49.039 --> 00:52:52.559
have a gigantic tank, the efficiency of storing

00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:56.179
it increases because you have less surface area

00:52:56.179 --> 00:53:00.219
per unit volume. Okay, so does that make sense?

00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:04.940
Yeah. So if it's really small. you'd have a tremendous

00:53:04.940 --> 00:53:07.360
problem storing it because you have a lot of

00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:10.840
surface area where heat can leak in and out.

00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:13.559
Yeah, and I'm thinking, like, you park your car

00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:18.260
for a week in your garage. It evaporates. Yeah,

00:53:18.260 --> 00:53:22.340
I mean, I don't know how much. It depends on

00:53:22.340 --> 00:53:25.760
how it's built. You can store things under very

00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:31.599
high pressure at liquid, like argon, hydrogen.

00:53:33.779 --> 00:53:37.679
nitrogen at very, very high pressure, and it

00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:39.579
may stay liquid. I'm not sure what the triple

00:53:39.579 --> 00:53:43.360
point of hydrogen is, but in any event, it's

00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:47.500
very cold and or under very, very high pressure.

00:53:48.139 --> 00:53:51.519
So yeah, there's all those problems. The one

00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:53.840
problem it does not have is nuclear explosions.

00:53:53.940 --> 00:53:57.539
A lot of people think that if you have hydrogen

00:53:57.539 --> 00:54:00.280
fuel, oh my God, I have a hydrogen bomb in my...

00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:04.059
In my garage, no, that's not the case. It's different

00:54:04.059 --> 00:54:08.260
technology burning versus exploding in a nuclear

00:54:08.260 --> 00:54:10.800
reaction. I mean, would liquid hydrogen pose

00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:13.599
less of a threat than gas? I mean, I think we

00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:16.119
covered it. There was an explosion of a hydrogen

00:54:16.119 --> 00:54:18.440
tanker of some sort in Los Angeles a few years

00:54:18.440 --> 00:54:22.219
back. I think we were talking about how the hydrogen

00:54:22.219 --> 00:54:27.559
burns kind of. You know, it's not like a gasoline

00:54:27.559 --> 00:54:31.480
fire as far as you can see it. It had some dangers.

00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:35.239
Is liquid hydrogen safer from that perspective?

00:54:35.860 --> 00:54:38.059
I haven't done an analysis of it, but there's

00:54:38.059 --> 00:54:42.639
pros and cons. So one of the pros is that if

00:54:42.639 --> 00:54:45.079
you have a liquid hydrogen leak, it's going to

00:54:45.079 --> 00:54:48.019
evaporate very rapidly. It's not going to pool

00:54:48.019 --> 00:54:49.820
underground. It's not going to run into the sewers,

00:54:49.860 --> 00:54:54.269
right? Because it does evaporate very rapidly,

00:54:54.550 --> 00:54:58.429
you're unlikely to have a big problem with accumulated

00:54:58.429 --> 00:55:02.809
fuel. The Hindenburg, for example, burned because

00:55:02.809 --> 00:55:05.329
that was filled with hydrogen. It didn't drip

00:55:05.329 --> 00:55:08.130
underground. The reason you can see the Hindenburg

00:55:08.130 --> 00:55:10.130
burning is not because of the hydrogen. It's

00:55:10.130 --> 00:55:13.909
because of the material that encased the dirigible

00:55:13.909 --> 00:55:16.469
burning. That was the visible flames that you

00:55:16.469 --> 00:55:19.329
saw there. But you're right. The flames from...

00:55:19.820 --> 00:55:23.400
The hydrogen burning are very, very subtle at

00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:26.940
best. It's really not nearly as visible as gasoline

00:55:26.940 --> 00:55:31.219
burning or diesel burning. No smoke either. It's

00:55:31.219 --> 00:55:35.519
just a water vapor. So is it safer? It's hard

00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:39.079
to say. It depends on so many variables. You'd

00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:42.840
have to deal with an individual scenario to figure

00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:46.780
out if it was safer or not. Oh, it's not coming

00:55:46.780 --> 00:55:50.150
to a car near us anytime soon, right? I wouldn't

00:55:50.150 --> 00:55:53.150
think so. No. Okay. Not a commercial gas station

00:55:53.150 --> 00:55:57.590
anyway. There are people selling vaporous hydrogen

00:55:57.590 --> 00:56:01.550
or gaseous hydrogen now in some places in California,

00:56:01.570 --> 00:56:04.230
and there were mandates for it. And if you want

00:56:04.230 --> 00:56:08.550
to, you have something like a fuel cell driving

00:56:08.550 --> 00:56:11.510
your car, which is a very, very efficient way

00:56:11.510 --> 00:56:14.869
of generating electricity in a car. You need

00:56:14.869 --> 00:56:18.510
to have extremely clean hydrogen. That's another

00:56:18.510 --> 00:56:22.170
bit of a problem for the distribution, commercial

00:56:22.170 --> 00:56:26.570
distribution, like in a gas tank, right? Or a

00:56:26.570 --> 00:56:30.570
gas station. So, yeah, I don't think we're going

00:56:30.570 --> 00:56:33.929
to see it anytime soon. I think the bigger, and

00:56:33.929 --> 00:56:36.369
it's not going to be a driving safety issue for

00:56:36.369 --> 00:56:39.849
a long time. The driving safety issues are all

00:56:39.849 --> 00:56:43.170
associated with technology that's, most of which

00:56:43.170 --> 00:56:46.429
is available now. The government is reluctant

00:56:46.429 --> 00:56:50.530
to force people to put it into their cars. That's

00:56:50.530 --> 00:56:54.050
going to continue to be the leading issue for

00:56:54.050 --> 00:56:57.409
a long time. Get that government off my Medicare.

00:56:57.610 --> 00:57:01.250
That's what I say. Yep. Now let's jump into recalls.

00:57:01.389 --> 00:57:06.329
First up, Kia 6 ,264 vehicles, the 2027 Kia Telluride

00:57:06.329 --> 00:57:11.019
Hybrid. 2027 Kia Telluride in honor. Invaluable

00:57:11.019 --> 00:57:13.219
occupant restraint increases the risk of an injury

00:57:13.219 --> 00:57:15.380
to an unbelted driver in the event of a collision.

00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:18.860
Oh, wait, what? An incorrect vehicle sensor is

00:57:18.860 --> 00:57:21.039
installed in certain driver's seatbelt assemblies.

00:57:21.639 --> 00:57:24.380
Oh, so you can't extend the driver's seatbelt.

00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:27.719
Oh, wait, I can't pull out the driver's seatbelt

00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:30.559
and clip it? Yeah, it looks like, you know, I

00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:32.519
think, I mean, I've had the problem like this

00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:34.679
in a number of vehicles I've been in before with

00:57:34.679 --> 00:57:37.719
when there was an issue with the retractor, you

00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:40.000
know, where you... Pull the seatbelt and it doesn't

00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:42.119
want to move. And that sounds like what's going

00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:44.340
on here is that there's a sensor causing these

00:57:44.340 --> 00:57:46.199
seatbelt retractors not to function properly.

00:57:47.639 --> 00:57:50.360
Well, get that fixed, folks. Yeah, looks like

00:57:50.360 --> 00:57:53.239
that's coming to owners. Probably you'll be able

00:57:53.239 --> 00:57:55.760
to get a fix at the end of July, early August.

00:57:57.099 --> 00:58:00.559
Up next, hey, the world heavyweight champion

00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:07.039
from Dearborn, Michigan. It is Ford! 419 ,967

00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:11.619
vehicles. 2018 to 2022 Lincoln Navigator. 28

00:58:11.619 --> 00:58:15.780
same years, the Ford Expedition. And inadvertent

00:58:15.780 --> 00:58:18.260
deployment of the retractor pretensioners result

00:58:18.260 --> 00:58:20.800
in the seatbelt being, is this just all seatbelts

00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:23.599
now? Are seatbelts my new rear view camera? What

00:58:23.599 --> 00:58:25.789
is happening? I think there are a couple this

00:58:25.789 --> 00:58:28.110
week. This is this one's interesting. You know,

00:58:28.130 --> 00:58:31.130
essentially, you know, the propellant in these

00:58:31.130 --> 00:58:33.789
pretensioners degrades in high heat where we've

00:58:33.789 --> 00:58:37.969
heard that before. They oxidize and that can

00:58:37.969 --> 00:58:40.190
allow inadvertent deployments, which essentially

00:58:40.190 --> 00:58:43.969
means you could be driving randomly down the

00:58:43.969 --> 00:58:46.190
road and your seatbelt gets really tight all

00:58:46.190 --> 00:58:50.530
of a sudden. You know, and I think that that's

00:58:50.530 --> 00:58:55.929
not compliant with my chest. Yeah, with the seatbelt

00:58:55.929 --> 00:58:58.449
standards to some extent, I think, but it's,

00:58:58.449 --> 00:59:03.869
you know, I think when this happens, you're not

00:59:03.869 --> 00:59:07.010
going to be able to use the seatbelt anymore.

00:59:07.010 --> 00:59:09.469
The seatbelt's no longer safe, so it needs to

00:59:09.469 --> 00:59:13.570
be repaired immediately. All right. Next up,

00:59:13.650 --> 00:59:18.829
Subaru 69 ,663 vehicles, the 2026 Forester, the

00:59:18.829 --> 00:59:25.380
Forester Hybrid. The power moonroof assemblies

00:59:25.380 --> 00:59:27.280
where the glass panel has been improperly bonded

00:59:27.280 --> 00:59:29.480
to the sliding frame. Over time, the bonding

00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:31.599
adhesion between the glass panel and the sliding

00:59:31.599 --> 00:59:34.039
frame may deteriorate and the moonroof glass

00:59:34.039 --> 00:59:36.659
may become detached during usage of the vehicle.

00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:39.599
Oh, my God. You're driving down the road and

00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:41.420
all of a sudden your moonroof collapses on you?

00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:44.699
No, essentially it flies off the car and is a

00:59:44.699 --> 00:59:48.820
danger to other people on the road. Oh. I don't,

00:59:48.820 --> 00:59:51.199
you know, I guess they said it could cause a

00:59:51.199 --> 00:59:55.440
crash. Maybe, maybe. Maybe it could. I don't

00:59:55.440 --> 00:59:57.480
know that it can fall inside the car or not.

00:59:57.639 --> 01:00:00.320
It's not really noted here, but clearly they're

01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:03.480
concerned about it striking other road users

01:00:03.480 --> 01:00:06.300
or people around the vehicle. Oh, strikes me.

01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:09.880
Next up, Chrysler. Oh, yeah. Chrysler America.

01:00:10.099 --> 01:00:12.920
This is what we do. One million seventy six thousand

01:00:12.920 --> 01:00:16.079
nine hundred ninety nine vehicles. The twenty

01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:20.300
one to twenty five Wrangler Gladiator. In certain

01:00:20.300 --> 01:00:23.280
circumstances, high resistance electrical activity

01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:28.880
may take place in the area of the EHPSP. That's

01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:32.219
the electric hydraulic power steering pump. Connection

01:00:32.219 --> 01:00:34.219
causing overheating of combustible materials.

01:00:34.539 --> 01:00:38.179
Oh, and this may lead to fire, which may result

01:00:38.179 --> 01:00:43.500
in injury. And this is, you know, this came after

01:00:43.500 --> 01:00:47.570
a NHTSA investigation. You know, Jeep. has been

01:00:47.570 --> 01:00:50.110
getting reports of fires in these vehicles for

01:00:50.110 --> 01:00:54.489
quite some time now. They've been investigating

01:00:54.489 --> 01:00:57.949
fires in these vehicles. Jeep has for over, I

01:00:57.949 --> 01:01:00.530
mean, they started the investigation internally

01:01:00.530 --> 01:01:05.210
in May of 2023. And, you know, they note that

01:01:05.210 --> 01:01:09.210
there have been something like, you know, a lot

01:01:09.210 --> 01:01:13.150
of field reports. So like, you know, 63 customer

01:01:13.150 --> 01:01:16.820
assistance records, 72 field reports. and 12

01:01:16.820 --> 01:01:20.360
other records of customers who have had a fire

01:01:20.360 --> 01:01:25.639
or related problem on these vehicles. So it looks

01:01:25.639 --> 01:01:28.260
like owners can expect to get a fix sometime

01:01:28.260 --> 01:01:31.119
this summer. They're not real specific, but I

01:01:31.119 --> 01:01:34.840
would expect a notification in August. They're

01:01:34.840 --> 01:01:37.219
not very specific about what's going to happen

01:01:37.219 --> 01:01:40.780
here. They say the remedy is an inspection and

01:01:40.780 --> 01:01:45.300
repair of that electronic hydraulic. It's a power

01:01:45.300 --> 01:01:49.099
steering pump, which appears that they were manufactured

01:01:49.099 --> 01:01:53.619
somewhat out of out of specification, causing

01:01:53.619 --> 01:01:56.320
a problem at the connection point, high resistance

01:01:56.320 --> 01:01:59.380
and potential fire. So they're coming up with

01:01:59.380 --> 01:02:02.219
a fix for that. They're just not real, real specific

01:02:02.219 --> 01:02:04.199
on what it's going to be. Is that a park outside?

01:02:05.659 --> 01:02:09.139
This is a park outside. All right. Last recall.

01:02:09.659 --> 01:02:12.440
Chrysler again. Another park outside. There we

01:02:12.440 --> 01:02:17.420
go. Ooh, 17 ,277 vehicles in 2020 to 2022 Chrysler

01:02:17.420 --> 01:02:21.980
Pacifica in HV battery, which is high voltage

01:02:21.980 --> 01:02:24.900
battery, which fails internally may result in

01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:27.860
thermal runaway leading to a vehicle fire. Oh

01:02:27.860 --> 01:02:31.099
no, that's, that's not good. I love that they

01:02:31.099 --> 01:02:33.000
have to write a vehicle fire can result in increased

01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:34.860
risk of occupant injury and injury to persons

01:02:34.860 --> 01:02:36.820
outside the vehicle. Is that what a fire could

01:02:36.820 --> 01:02:41.179
do? Okay. Yeah, and owners are probably going

01:02:41.179 --> 01:02:43.860
to hear about this pretty soon. It looks like

01:02:43.860 --> 01:02:45.559
in a couple of weeks, they're going to get notice

01:02:45.559 --> 01:02:47.360
out. What they're going to do is inspect your

01:02:47.360 --> 01:02:51.360
vehicle. They may replace the battery pack, depending

01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:53.719
on what's going on, but they're definitely going

01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:57.619
to put revised software in your vehicle that

01:02:57.619 --> 01:03:01.119
will help detect a potential condition where

01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:05.489
the fire might occur. And owners can expect that

01:03:05.489 --> 01:03:08.090
in about two weeks. All right. With that, listeners,

01:03:08.250 --> 01:03:10.989
that's going to wrap up this episode. We will

01:03:10.989 --> 01:03:14.510
be back for you next week. Until then, bye -bye.

01:03:14.610 --> 01:03:18.610
Thank you. Goodbye. Thanks, everybody. For more

01:03:18.610 --> 01:03:22.210
information, visit www .autosafety .org.