WEBVTT

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You're listening to There Auto Be A Law, the

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Center for Auto Safety podcast with Executive

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Director Michael Brooks, Chief Engineer Fred

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Perkins, and hosted by me, Anthony Cimino. For

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over 50 years, the Center for Auto Safety has

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worked to make cars safer. Hey, listeners. Welcome

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back. Today is Wednesday, March 25th. We have

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a... Returning, recurring special guest, the

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man who needs no introduction, Phil Koopman. Welcome

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back to the show. Hi, guys. Great to be back.

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Maybe I should have asked you if you wanted a

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specific introduction. That's fine. It's fine.

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Everybody knows you at this point. You know,

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you're the fourth Marx Brothers in this show.

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So we're going to talk a lot about the wonderful

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world and Michael's favorite subject. lately

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waymo aren't we we're talking more and more about

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self -driving cars but let's start off with a

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an article from david zipper who's in bloomberg

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titled here comes the self -driving traffic surge

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now what's interesting about this is you know

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they sell safe self -driving vehicles as being

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hey this is going to make everything wonderful

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and all the world will be great and traffic will

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never happen accidents Won't be a thing. Your

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kids will, you know, like you more. But this

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article points out that more of AVs will lead

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to more traffic because people will be taking

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rides that they normally wouldn't take now. But

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my the interesting part of this article that

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jumped out at me was quoting as of late 2025,

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deadheading represented almost half of Waymo's

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total miles driven in the Bay Area. And that's

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just. An empty Waymo just driving around looking

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for a fare or going back to recharge or something

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like that. So, gentlemen, it seems that AVs are

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not the answer to everything. I have some thoughts

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on this. Perfect. First of all, ride hail spends

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a lot of time deadheading too. Yep. Right? Yep.

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Taxes. And so an easy way to look at it is this

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is just ride hail without the person in the front.

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And why would you expect it to be any different

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other than if someday it's cheaper, like they

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keep promising. Last I heard, when the cost goes

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down, demand goes up. So the issue is going to

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be that if it actually ends up being cheaper,

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you're going to see increased demand in some

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cities like San Francisco, New York. That's going

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to be huge. And other cities where the roads

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are empty, maybe not as big a deal. The other

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takeaway I got from this was. Another quote,

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Waymo's Bay Area riders pay a premium of at least

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10 % to take a robo taxi instead of a human driven

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ride hail. So people are just paying extra because

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they don't want to have to deal with a person,

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which is very Silicon Valley. From my experience,

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it sounds like that's a that's a big draw. I

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mean, we've we've gone through that before. I

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think when. I can't remember who it was, an article

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or a lobbyist or someone talking about their

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driver not smelling great or whatever it is.

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There's kind of a negative sheen that's attached

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to some drivers of cabs. And also, I think this

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article cited, you know, you can play your own

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music, control your own air conditioning. You

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can do all these things on your own without running

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it through a driver. I mean, I guess for those

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of us that are, you know, not social creatures,

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that could be a benefit worth paying a little

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more for. But with human drivers on one of the

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services, you can pay more for them not to talk

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to you. That's actually a thing. Wait, really?

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Yeah. Yeah. Quiet ride. And it's an upcharge.

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Wow. That's just so rude and weird. I don't know.

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Well, that, you know, people are willing to pay,

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you know, fine. The question really is, is that

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because it's novel or is that going to be enduring?

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And even if it's an upcharge compared to a human

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driver, if more supply drives the cost down,

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you're going to get more use because that's just

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how it's going to be, right? Yeah. There were

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some other negative outcomes. Go ahead, Fred.

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Speaking of people not talking, I did a little

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research this morning, and using AI, it turns

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out that Waymo has either 2 ,500 or 3 ,000 cars

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in service right now. AI is very useful because

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I asked it for an answer, and so it gave me two

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different answers. So who the hell knows? But

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they also said that they've got 70 people staffing

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their remote driving capability at any time.

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So using advanced mathematics, it turns out that

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that means each driver, each remote driver's

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got 42 .857 cars they're responsible for. And,

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you know, each task or each driving. task for

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the Waymos is roughly 20 minutes, right? They

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said it's 10 miles and assuming it's 30 miles

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an hour, you've got 20 minutes per trip. So for

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each trip, the allocation of time for a remote

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driver is about 30 seconds. And this, I don't

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know, to me, this doesn't seem like a lot of

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time to spend. Looking at all the safety -critical

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events that can happen that need supervision

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in the cars, what do you think about that, Phil?

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What do you think about those numbers? Well,

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the 30 seconds per trip is an average, so it

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could be five minutes on one and nothing on a

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bunch of others. It's hard to use the averages.

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Yeah, that's an average, yeah. So Waymo would

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probably say that that demonstrates cost -effectiveness

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because they've improved the driver -to -vehicle

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ratio, which is their big thing. If they were

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intervening effectively, I'd say that was great.

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What we're seeing on the roads is a lot of situations

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where they're not able to intervene effectively.

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I have a little side before we go down that path

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because I think that's getting into my main point.

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Yeah, it is. There's another thing about the

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half -empty statistic, which is subtle but important

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for safety. If the cars are empty half the time,

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then that means if they get in a crash, it is

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by definition a non -injury crash to the occupants.

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And I did, there's an old blog entry on this,

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I did some quick math. And basically, if you

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only look at occupant injuries, setting aside

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pedestrian injuries, if you look at occupant

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injuries, if you have exactly the same number

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of crashes in a robo -taxi as in a ride hail,

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you should expect one -third the number of injuries.

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Because half the time... The Robotaxi has nobody

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and half the time it has one person. But a ride

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hail, half the time it has one person and half

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the time it has two people. If you do the math,

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just if you had exactly the same crashes with

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no differences at all, you would expect one third

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the injury crash injuries or half the injury

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crash, depending on your note. So if somebody

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says, oh, we only have half as many injury crashes

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as a ride hail, it's like, so you're no different

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at all. Now, it's interesting. If there's no

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drivers being hurt, you know, maybe that's a

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good thing. There's fewer people being hurt.

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But it's not a direct measure of how many bad

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crashes are happening. It's just that the vehicle's

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empty when it crashes. So when that Waymo crashed

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into a utility pole, there was no one in it.

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So there was no injury. But it might have been

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as much because it was empty as because it was,

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you know, that doesn't mean it was not a big

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crash. Great point. Great point. The thing about

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the claims of safety by Waymo that's interesting

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to me is that, number one, the statistics that

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they cite are not supported by the references

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that they put on their website. So that's kind

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of interesting. And the references they put in

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their website are no more current than 2022.

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In 2022, they were restricted in both speed and

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geography to where they could go and how quickly

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they could go there. There's a lot of bullshit

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going on there, Bill, it seems to me. And by

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all accounts, had very different software. They

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apparently have incorporated end -to -end learning

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in the last year, and that wasn't there for the

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old data. Yeah, there's a lot of questions. There's

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a lot of questions on this data. And a bigger

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thing, everything is, I think you said this last

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episode, Fred, it made sense. But another thing

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to put on top is, if you have a... I guess they're

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at 170 million miles a day to whatever they are

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at, which is still, they're going to need, by

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the time the dust settles, they'll need a billion.

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They still have a long way to go to get statistical

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experiments if nothing changed. But it did change.

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They're completely changing the software stack

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to the end -to -end. And from a statistical point

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of view, you can't count old software against

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new. It's like, well, I drove, and this is not

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quite what they're saying, but I drove. I drove

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100 million miles in a Waymo, then I drove a

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million miles in a Tesla, so I get to divide

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the Tesla data by 101 million. No, it doesn't

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work that way. But I drove around 100 million

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miles in an old Waymo that had componentized

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machine learning. I switched to end -to -end.

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I drive 1 million miles. You don't get to divide

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by 101, but that's kind of what they're doing.

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And those are all trailing statistics, trailing

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indicators. So they've got nothing to do with

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the future behavior of those vehicles. This is

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another way to get at it. But the issue is, the

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problem is, the rhetorical problem here is, if

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you have something that's really bad, and we

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don't know if it's really good or bad because

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of the following problem. If you go 100 million

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miles with something pretty good, you have something

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that's twice as bad, which still in the world

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of auto safety is still pretty safe. It's one

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fatality per 50 million instead of 100 million.

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It's going to be a long time before you see that

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happen. But if you go 1 million with something

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twice as dangerous, you dilute the numbers by

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a factor of 100. So if you put out something

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that's really dangerous and divide by the entire

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history, you can do that and then fix it and

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you haven't really changed the statistics at

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all because there's so much inertia from the

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history. So dividing by the entire life of all

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the versions of software tells you nothing about

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the current version. And it's what you said.

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I'm just sort of coming at it a different way.

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Well, what Waymo has said and... Paraphrasing,

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saying every software release is validated to

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operate exactly as it's designed. So does that

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mean it's, I have to be snarky because I'm on

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the show. Does that mean it's designed to pass

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school buses without stopping? Because that's

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what that says, right? I don't even understand

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what that sentence means. I'm sure, to be clear,

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I'm sure they didn't intend to say that, but

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that's where you end up, right? Yeah, it's bizarre.

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And they keep in mind, and correct me if I'm

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wrong, but they still don't count any. where

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the Waymo gets rear -ended, right? Well, they

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don't count anything that's not their fault,

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apparently. California is a no -fault state,

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too. Anything they can say is not more than 50

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% their fault, they don't like to count, depending

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which study and which metric you're looking at.

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And they don't say what that fault means. I mean,

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is that their own opinion? Is that the opinion

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of an insurance company? Is that, you know, what

00:11:48.620 --> 00:11:51.169
the hell does that actually mean? It's mixing

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legal with engineering descriptions. It's not

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an approach that's safe. There is a precise definition

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sort of for one of the really old ones, way,

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way back when they only had a few million miles,

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they did the insurance study. And the problem,

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what at fault meant was that their insurance

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policy paid out to a third party. But what that

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leaves out is where there was no payment or was

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49 .9 % their fault or. You know, depending if

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it's that kind of state. But the other thing

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that some of my insurance friends pointed out

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is that if you pay cash at the time of the crash

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to settle it out of your pocket, that doesn't

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show up in your insurance. And that's also not

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your fault. And we don't know whether they did

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that or not. But my insurance friends looked

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at this set and said, well, there's all sorts

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of loopholes. Or if there's a court battle, if

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there's dispute and you don't pay out till five

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years later, for those five years, it doesn't

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count as a payout, right? So there's a... Those

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kind of studies have lots of problems. Basically,

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if you're talking blame in this game, if you're

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trying to talk about safety and use the word

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blame or use the word fault, you're just trying

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to dodge the numbers. Right. Well, there's another

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issue with the Waymo. The terms of service say

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that people can't sue. So the amount you can

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recover is severely limited by the fact that

00:13:09.990 --> 00:13:12.429
you've signed up for the service. So that's another

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thing that skews the data away from fault. So

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Michael's the lawyer on the call. But, you know,

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if you sign binding arbitration and the Waymo

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Insurance Company says no, that counts as not

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their fault and your options for recourse are

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limited. Okay. So we know that Waymo's PR team

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is top notch, fabulous. We know that they're

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playing some statistical. Absolutely, man. Some

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of the stuff they get away with saying. Yep.

00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:41.000
It's next level. Like Orwell is sitting there

00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:44.120
cracking up, spinning in his grave. One thing

00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:46.919
that Waymo has said is, and this is written down,

00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:49.639
we don't have a teen program. Teens are not allowed

00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:52.779
in our vehicle except in the Phoenix area. You

00:13:52.779 --> 00:13:55.500
must be 13. Your parents sign a waiver. Nowhere

00:13:55.500 --> 00:13:58.659
else on planet Earth does Waymo have a teen program.

00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:01.860
And so now - How about preteens? Are they allowed?

00:14:02.259 --> 00:14:06.580
No, you have to be at least 13. 13 and you always

00:14:06.580 --> 00:14:08.600
have to be, if you're under the age of 18, you

00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:10.960
have to be accompanied by an adult, except for

00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:14.210
this. restricted area in phoenix where you can

00:14:14.210 --> 00:14:16.330
get your parents if you're over 13 to sign a

00:14:16.330 --> 00:14:18.710
liability waiver or something uh you're allowed

00:14:18.710 --> 00:14:21.090
to do it but we've pointed out in the show that

00:14:21.090 --> 00:14:22.590
there's people in san francisco talking about

00:14:22.590 --> 00:14:24.429
i'm putting my nine -year -old in the car setting

00:14:24.429 --> 00:14:27.889
him off to school and you know waymo is well

00:14:27.889 --> 00:14:30.850
aware of this and now the california gig workers

00:14:30.850 --> 00:14:33.309
union has filed a complaint against waymo quoting

00:14:33.309 --> 00:14:35.970
from their press release the california gig workers

00:14:35.970 --> 00:14:38.490
union and its affiliates filed a formal complaint

00:14:38.490 --> 00:14:40.570
with the california public utilities commission

00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:43.139
alleging that Waymo has been knowingly violating

00:14:43.139 --> 00:14:46.539
the conditions of its state permit by transporting

00:14:46.539 --> 00:14:49.559
unaccompanied minors through its autonomous ride

00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:51.799
-hailing service in California, which raises

00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:54.539
serious public safety and regulatory compliance

00:14:54.539 --> 00:15:00.139
concerns. Now, Mr. Brooks, as an attorney, what

00:15:00.139 --> 00:15:02.419
technique does Waymo use to just be like, that's

00:15:02.419 --> 00:15:06.100
fine, don't worry about it? I mean, they've got

00:15:06.100 --> 00:15:07.799
to go before. Apparently, they're going to have

00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:09.740
to go before the California Public Utilities

00:15:09.740 --> 00:15:13.100
Commission, which we discussed in the past, primarily

00:15:13.100 --> 00:15:17.940
in relation to its actions with GM Cruise. And

00:15:17.940 --> 00:15:20.440
they've got a lot of, you know, there are a lot

00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:22.620
of different complaints here, right? There's

00:15:22.620 --> 00:15:25.919
transporting unaccompanied minors, whether Waymo

00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:28.139
has safeguards in place to prevent this from

00:15:28.139 --> 00:15:30.299
happening, like age verification. I mean, we

00:15:30.299 --> 00:15:32.990
know that Waymo can. basically see into every

00:15:32.990 --> 00:15:36.490
vehicle and can monitor who and what is there

00:15:36.490 --> 00:15:41.370
and what's going on. So, you know, reasonable

00:15:41.370 --> 00:15:44.429
safeguards might include looking at the passenger

00:15:44.429 --> 00:15:47.330
to determine whether or not they are a minor

00:15:47.330 --> 00:15:50.990
or that type of thing. And then they're looking

00:15:50.990 --> 00:15:55.480
to suspend Waymo's permit going for. financial

00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:58.480
penalties for previous violations and a number

00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:00.580
of other things, ultimately resulting in some

00:16:00.580 --> 00:16:04.059
type of mandatory age verification happening.

00:16:04.340 --> 00:16:06.840
And I don't think this is just a Waymo issue.

00:16:07.019 --> 00:16:09.039
I mean, Waymo is obviously taking a lot of heat,

00:16:09.139 --> 00:16:12.840
both from us and from regulators in a lot of

00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:15.519
areas, because they're kind of the big boy on

00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:17.460
the block that's out there first and making all

00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:20.490
these mistakes. I definitely don't want to lose

00:16:20.490 --> 00:16:22.809
track of the rest of the industry as, you know,

00:16:22.809 --> 00:16:24.870
happens a lot in articles because there are,

00:16:25.029 --> 00:16:27.649
you know, first of all, Waymo is using Federal

00:16:27.649 --> 00:16:29.669
Motor Vehicle Safety Standard compliant vehicles

00:16:29.669 --> 00:16:32.110
to do this. There are a lot of vehicles from

00:16:32.110 --> 00:16:34.409
Zoox and from other companies that are proposed

00:16:34.409 --> 00:16:37.710
that don't even meet those standards that are

00:16:37.710 --> 00:16:40.450
going to be operating on our roads soon and have

00:16:40.450 --> 00:16:43.330
far less miles accumulated with Waymo using a

00:16:43.330 --> 00:16:45.169
different technology that hasn't been taken.

00:16:45.740 --> 00:16:48.220
tested quite as long as Waymo. So, you know,

00:16:48.220 --> 00:16:51.840
my concerns about Waymo exist, and yet I find

00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.320
myself often wondering, you know, what does the

00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:57.500
future hold for these other companies that are

00:16:57.500 --> 00:17:00.320
kind of riding into the scene on Waymo's coattails

00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:03.820
without any of the, you know, experience and,

00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:08.500
you know, kind of underlying safety focus that,

00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:11.480
you know, we've seen from Waymo in some areas.

00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:13.140
We're not sure that that's going to translate

00:17:13.140 --> 00:17:15.630
to the rest of the industry. Tesla, obviously,

00:17:15.789 --> 00:17:18.869
is one of the concerning parties there. I think

00:17:18.869 --> 00:17:20.369
that's fair. There's a lot of fast and loose

00:17:20.369 --> 00:17:23.289
going on in the industry. We beat on Waymo, even

00:17:23.289 --> 00:17:25.650
though they're better behaved than most. But

00:17:25.650 --> 00:17:28.529
on the other hand, Waymo is past the point where

00:17:28.529 --> 00:17:30.049
they could say, oh, give us a break. We're still

00:17:30.049 --> 00:17:32.369
learning. When you brag about how many hundred

00:17:32.369 --> 00:17:36.230
million miles you have and your slogan is you're

00:17:36.230 --> 00:17:37.809
the world's most experienced driver and all these

00:17:37.809 --> 00:17:40.789
things, you can't play that. But we're still

00:17:40.789 --> 00:17:44.019
learning. You can't have it both ways. Well,

00:17:44.019 --> 00:17:46.920
my Gaslight nomination this week will address

00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:50.500
exactly that, how the Waymo infection is spreading

00:17:50.500 --> 00:17:53.619
to Europe. Okay, well, before we get into that,

00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:56.440
let's do a gentle feed into that, I think. There's

00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:01.200
an article from KGW8 titled, Watch driverless

00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:03.559
Waymo vehicle turns into oncoming traffic and

00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:06.359
blocks roads in Houston. And so this is a case

00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:09.339
where a Waymo starts trying to go down the wrong

00:18:09.339 --> 00:18:12.539
way, down a one -way street, pauses, blocks traffic.

00:18:13.150 --> 00:18:16.289
Hangs out there for a while, but then some mysterious

00:18:16.289 --> 00:18:20.390
person in a faraway land moves the vehicle remotely.

00:18:21.049 --> 00:18:23.730
Because what do we know about autonomous vehicles?

00:18:23.910 --> 00:18:27.349
There's always somebody who's driving the vehicle

00:18:27.349 --> 00:18:29.210
or at least monitoring the vehicle or paying

00:18:29.210 --> 00:18:31.890
attention. I don't know. I think, Phil, you can

00:18:31.890 --> 00:18:36.170
explain what what what happens here. At what

00:18:36.170 --> 00:18:39.539
point does. Is the computer not doing the dynamic

00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:41.539
driving task? There's a lot. I'm just going to

00:18:41.539 --> 00:18:45.519
let you go. I'll leave the room. Okay. I will

00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.200
give this a shot. For every robo -taxi that's

00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.559
going to be practical on the roads for the foreseeable

00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:55.519
future, there will be at some point in time someone

00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:58.980
not in the robo -taxi who's going to deal with

00:18:58.980 --> 00:19:01.299
its operation. This applies to robo -trucks.

00:19:01.339 --> 00:19:03.079
I'll say robo -taxis, but it's going to apply

00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:06.079
to robo -trucks as well. And the issue is you're

00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:08.859
in a world that is not fully defined. The world

00:19:08.859 --> 00:19:12.720
is full of craziness and no computer can deal

00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:14.759
with all of it. And if you're saying, well, use

00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:16.819
machine learning and it's really flexible, it's

00:19:16.819 --> 00:19:18.700
like, well, it can only learn what it's seen

00:19:18.700 --> 00:19:20.400
by example. And when there's something it's never

00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:24.539
seen, it's going to struggle. And saying that

00:19:24.539 --> 00:19:26.299
that's going to go away by next Tuesday is just

00:19:26.299 --> 00:19:28.119
wishful thinking. This is with us for the long

00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:29.940
term. It's one of the fundamental hard problems

00:19:29.940 --> 00:19:34.500
of technology. Now, that's not bad. on its own.

00:19:34.900 --> 00:19:37.740
You just have to embrace it instead of deny it.

00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:40.099
So there will be times where it needs some help.

00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:42.359
And the question is, how does that help happen?

00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:45.539
And what are the safety implications? And so

00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:49.079
in China, and for some, you know, maybe Tesla,

00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:51.519
we don't really know, there's somebody watching

00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:54.299
it all the time, or maybe somebody watching five

00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:57.170
or 10 all the time. It's just there's a continuous

00:19:57.170 --> 00:19:59.329
feed, and their job is to jump in when it needs

00:19:59.329 --> 00:20:01.910
help. And if you're watching 10, it better not

00:20:01.910 --> 00:20:04.410
be grab the steering wheel on a highway because

00:20:04.410 --> 00:20:07.029
if two of them have that problem or it takes

00:20:07.029 --> 00:20:09.890
too long. But if it gets stuck and you have to

00:20:09.890 --> 00:20:12.029
jump in, you can notice it's stuck without it

00:20:12.029 --> 00:20:16.069
telling you it's stuck, right? But in the U .S.

00:20:16.069 --> 00:20:19.130
especially and for companies like Waymo, what

00:20:19.130 --> 00:20:20.950
they would say is, no, no, no, we're not watching

00:20:20.950 --> 00:20:23.410
them all the time. There have been times when

00:20:23.410 --> 00:20:24.849
we know they were watching them all the time.

00:20:24.910 --> 00:20:27.150
But for now, let's just say that that's the case.

00:20:27.210 --> 00:20:28.650
They're not actually watching them all the time.

00:20:29.049 --> 00:20:31.490
They can drop in randomly if they want. But the

00:20:31.490 --> 00:20:34.349
story they tell is, well, the robot taxi is in

00:20:34.349 --> 00:20:38.009
charge and it phones home for help. It phones

00:20:38.009 --> 00:20:40.190
a friend. It uses a lifeline, depending on your

00:20:40.190 --> 00:20:43.710
age and what your TV watching history is. You

00:20:43.710 --> 00:20:46.589
know, it calls in for help. And they call that

00:20:46.589 --> 00:20:49.150
a remote assistant. So a remote driver is someone

00:20:49.150 --> 00:20:51.559
with a steering wheel. And a remote assistant

00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:53.440
is, I'm just here to provide friendly advice.

00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:58.980
Now, what they will claim, based on some standards

00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:02.359
and guidelines, they'll claim, so SAJ 3016, the

00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:05.160
standard that defines the levels, also defines

00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:07.019
a remote assistant. And I'm not going to read

00:21:07.019 --> 00:21:09.440
the precise language, but remote assistant is

00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:13.279
someone who drops in to help when the trip cannot

00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:16.240
or should not continue without some human perspective.

00:21:16.990 --> 00:21:20.049
But J3016 is not a safety standard. It's explicitly

00:21:20.049 --> 00:21:21.849
not a safety standard. It just says, here's the

00:21:21.849 --> 00:21:24.069
definition of a role. Make of it what you will.

00:21:24.750 --> 00:21:28.349
But there's another document from AVSC, Fred's

00:21:28.349 --> 00:21:33.349
favorite organization, AVSC, which is not a standard,

00:21:33.509 --> 00:21:37.130
which is not really a best practice because it's

00:21:37.130 --> 00:21:39.890
a closed group that publishes whatever they want

00:21:39.890 --> 00:21:42.730
through SAE. It's a bunch of autonomous vehicle

00:21:42.730 --> 00:21:46.509
companies. And they publish this technical information

00:21:46.509 --> 00:21:49.569
with an SAE banner, but it's really just their

00:21:49.569 --> 00:21:52.329
publication. And some of the stuff they publish

00:21:52.329 --> 00:21:55.950
is pretty good, but this one has a problem in

00:21:55.950 --> 00:22:02.250
it. So it's the AVSC I -04 -2023 Best Practice

00:22:02.250 --> 00:22:05.329
for ADS Remote Assistance Use Case. That's the

00:22:05.329 --> 00:22:07.869
title. Good luck with that. We'll put a link

00:22:07.869 --> 00:22:11.819
to it. You can put a link to it. And the good

00:22:11.819 --> 00:22:13.519
thing about AVSC is you can download them for

00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:15.819
free, unlike real SAE standards you have to pay

00:22:15.819 --> 00:22:18.400
for most of them. So it's about how remote assistants

00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:20.259
work. And what they do is they divide the world

00:22:20.259 --> 00:22:22.220
into there's remote drivers and remote assistants.

00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.579
Remote drivers perform a substantive part of

00:22:26.579 --> 00:22:28.440
the dynamic driving tasks. So they're moving

00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:30.019
the steering wheel, they're working the accelerator,

00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:32.170
they're working the brakes. in some combination

00:22:32.170 --> 00:22:35.470
as if they're in the car. This is the very generalized

00:22:35.470 --> 00:22:37.650
thing. And remote assistance, well, they don't

00:22:37.650 --> 00:22:40.769
have vehicle controls. Okay, we're still okay.

00:22:40.869 --> 00:22:43.269
And in practice, you'll see interaction like

00:22:43.269 --> 00:22:47.390
a pop -up menu on a screen. And a remote assistant

00:22:47.390 --> 00:22:51.450
just clicks a box and the car will ask, is this

00:22:51.450 --> 00:22:54.230
traffic light red or green? And they'll click

00:22:54.230 --> 00:22:56.809
red or they'll click green. Or is this thing

00:22:56.809 --> 00:23:00.230
on the road a... a plastic garbage bag or is

00:23:00.230 --> 00:23:01.730
it a person who's fallen on the road? That's

00:23:01.730 --> 00:23:04.049
actually an example from the guidance. That's

00:23:04.049 --> 00:23:07.029
actually in there. Okay. It says, you know, if

00:23:07.029 --> 00:23:09.509
it's a bag, that means it may be okay to run

00:23:09.509 --> 00:23:13.650
over. And having a person remotely do these is

00:23:13.650 --> 00:23:15.430
probably a good thing because I'd really rather

00:23:15.430 --> 00:23:18.190
have a person check in on that than have the

00:23:18.190 --> 00:23:20.410
machine guess when it's not really sure what's

00:23:20.410 --> 00:23:24.390
going on. So this is okay so far. But... The

00:23:24.390 --> 00:23:27.150
place where this gets problematic is the industry

00:23:27.150 --> 00:23:31.150
position is if the remote person is not a driver,

00:23:31.289 --> 00:23:35.049
then they do not play a safety role. It's just

00:23:35.049 --> 00:23:37.690
advice. The car is responsible. They use the

00:23:37.690 --> 00:23:39.769
word the car is responsible. The computer in

00:23:39.769 --> 00:23:41.549
the car, the automated driving system is responsible

00:23:41.549 --> 00:23:44.849
for safety. They've got a problem with this.

00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:47.579
The problem with this is that a computer can't

00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:49.559
be responsible for anything because it's not

00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.019
a person. It has nudity of care for the safety

00:23:52.019 --> 00:23:54.799
of other road users. You can't sue it. It has

00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:57.019
nothing to pay you with if you could sue it because

00:23:57.019 --> 00:23:58.980
it's not a person. It's not even a fictitious

00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:01.539
person. It's just it can't be responsible for

00:24:01.539 --> 00:24:03.200
anything. That's just playing hide the ball.

00:24:03.299 --> 00:24:06.940
That's like literally nobody's responsible. But

00:24:06.940 --> 00:24:12.299
quoting right from the AVSC document, while the

00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:15.279
remote assistant may address. certain mission

00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:17.920
-relevant tasks, it cannot perform safety -critical

00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:21.500
functions like the DDT. And that's a huge gaslight.

00:24:21.500 --> 00:24:23.859
That's my gaslight. That's a huge gaslight because

00:24:23.859 --> 00:24:28.480
it clearly performs part of the DDT. You know,

00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:30.460
saying it can't perform all means it has nothing

00:24:30.460 --> 00:24:32.859
to do with safety. You know, I'm sorry, if the

00:24:32.859 --> 00:24:35.940
remote person is saying that's a garbage bag,

00:24:36.099 --> 00:24:38.099
it's okay to run over, even though you're not

00:24:38.099 --> 00:24:42.279
sure, and you run over it, you can't say the...

00:24:42.509 --> 00:24:44.710
The computer's responsible for running over the

00:24:44.710 --> 00:24:47.089
person who's falling into the street. And this

00:24:47.089 --> 00:24:50.009
stock and this standard lets the industry, gives

00:24:50.009 --> 00:24:51.809
them a reason to say, but it wasn't the remote

00:24:51.809 --> 00:24:55.069
person's fault either because they're not actually

00:24:55.069 --> 00:24:58.769
the driver. So whose fault is it? Literally nobody's.

00:24:59.210 --> 00:25:02.190
And there's a bunch of tort liability versus

00:25:02.190 --> 00:25:04.210
product liability, which we can go to if you

00:25:04.210 --> 00:25:07.549
guys really want to. But this is really a huge

00:25:07.549 --> 00:25:10.210
problem. And one of the examples on page 12,

00:25:10.309 --> 00:25:13.009
table two lists confirming or changing trajectory,

00:25:13.369 --> 00:25:16.630
for example, whether there's an empty plastic

00:25:16.630 --> 00:25:21.289
grocery bag or a person, right? So that's clearly

00:25:21.289 --> 00:25:24.269
an issue. There was also a recorded mishap involving

00:25:24.269 --> 00:25:29.930
Waymo. And the written thing in the SGO data

00:25:29.930 --> 00:25:32.910
is a little unclear. Missy Cummings has gone

00:25:32.910 --> 00:25:34.869
on record saying there's more nuance to it. So

00:25:34.869 --> 00:25:38.119
let me do the two versions. We read the SGO and

00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:41.660
some accompanying insider info that got published.

00:25:43.059 --> 00:25:47.119
It was that the traffic light was red, but the

00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:49.940
remote assistant said it was green. And the Waymo

00:25:49.940 --> 00:25:52.220
entered the intersection in a crossing. I think

00:25:52.220 --> 00:25:54.420
it was a moped rider wiped out trying to avoid

00:25:54.420 --> 00:25:59.299
it, right? And the car would not have entered

00:25:59.299 --> 00:26:00.779
the intersection if the remote assistant had

00:26:00.779 --> 00:26:02.500
not said it was green. There's no way that would

00:26:02.500 --> 00:26:05.150
have happened, right? So tell me that's not part

00:26:05.150 --> 00:26:07.470
of completing the dynamic driving task. In particular,

00:26:07.490 --> 00:26:09.789
object and event detection recognition saying,

00:26:09.970 --> 00:26:13.630
hey, what color is your traffic light? Now, the

00:26:13.630 --> 00:26:15.509
story that Missy Cummings tells us, it was a

00:26:15.509 --> 00:26:17.829
little more nuanced. It was that a time delay

00:26:17.829 --> 00:26:20.549
was involved, was that it was actually sort of

00:26:20.549 --> 00:26:26.150
a stale yellow. And by the time the remote assistant

00:26:26.150 --> 00:26:29.910
opined that it was yellow and for whatever reason

00:26:29.910 --> 00:26:32.009
was okay to turn, it had turned red by the time

00:26:32.009 --> 00:26:34.450
the answer came back, which is, Also interesting.

00:26:34.910 --> 00:26:37.150
But either way, either way you go, it's still

00:26:37.150 --> 00:26:39.849
the remote assistant was clearly playing a driving

00:26:39.849 --> 00:26:42.869
safety role. But, you know, if you have this

00:26:42.869 --> 00:26:44.529
thing on the road, you don't know what it is.

00:26:44.529 --> 00:26:47.009
You ask, is it OK to run over? Click yes or no.

00:26:48.369 --> 00:26:50.369
I understand you don't have a steering wheel.

00:26:50.450 --> 00:26:52.009
I understand you don't have a gas pedal, but

00:26:52.009 --> 00:26:53.990
don't tell me that you have no role to play in

00:26:53.990 --> 00:26:57.259
safety. And we saw the same thing in one of the

00:26:57.259 --> 00:26:59.980
school bus incidents, right? Well, yeah. And

00:26:59.980 --> 00:27:01.599
so this really came to a head. One of the school

00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:04.019
bus incidents, the remote assistant said, oh,

00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:06.779
that's not a school bus with its stop sign out,

00:27:06.819 --> 00:27:10.440
so it's okay to go by. And no one got hurt that

00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:15.180
time. But that's an issue. So these remote assistants

00:27:15.180 --> 00:27:19.859
are making decisions. I look at it as they're

00:27:19.859 --> 00:27:22.079
making decisions. They're not driving. They're

00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:24.680
making driving decisions. Is it OK to do X, Y?

00:27:24.740 --> 00:27:27.480
They're granting permission. And the thing they're

00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:30.640
granting permission for is something that carries

00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:34.039
inherent life critical risk in many cases. And

00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:38.299
so saying they have no, as this guidance says,

00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:40.039
it cannot perform safety critical functions.

00:27:40.740 --> 00:27:44.059
That's just not true. And we've already seen

00:27:44.059 --> 00:27:46.259
multiple incidents that demonstrate this is not

00:27:46.259 --> 00:27:49.299
true. Yeah. I mean, and we're even seeing, you

00:27:49.299 --> 00:27:51.859
know, this kind of. We're seeing the industry

00:27:51.859 --> 00:27:53.940
lobby to get language that would cement this

00:27:53.940 --> 00:27:57.240
position into federal law. You know, the Self

00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:00.740
-Drive Act that was proposed earlier this year

00:28:00.740 --> 00:28:05.180
essentially defines and the definition section

00:28:05.180 --> 00:28:07.480
says, you know, the automated driving system

00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:10.059
and ADAS shall be considered to be the driver

00:28:10.059 --> 00:28:12.720
of a vehicle when the ADAS is engaged, virtually

00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:16.299
eliminating responsibility for remote drivers

00:28:16.299 --> 00:28:20.240
and, you know, eliminating the ability of, you

00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:23.369
know, injured parties to go after whoever it

00:28:23.369 --> 00:28:25.990
is that can be considered responsible here in

00:28:25.990 --> 00:28:29.490
the absence of ADS computing systems having bank

00:28:29.490 --> 00:28:34.670
accounts. And where this ends up is, so there's

00:28:34.670 --> 00:28:36.630
another side, I'm going to tease this again,

00:28:36.710 --> 00:28:39.349
but we don't have to go into it right now, that

00:28:39.349 --> 00:28:41.930
you can sue a driver under tort negligence liability,

00:28:42.069 --> 00:28:44.009
but you have to sue a computer under product

00:28:44.009 --> 00:28:46.430
liability, which is much more expensive, much

00:28:46.430 --> 00:28:48.769
harder, and a different set of criteria. But

00:28:48.769 --> 00:28:51.230
this allows the remote drivers to hide behind

00:28:51.230 --> 00:28:54.329
the product liability, right? So now people say,

00:28:54.410 --> 00:28:56.029
well, what about the operators in the Philippines?

00:28:56.509 --> 00:28:58.910
Well, the remote operators in the Philippines,

00:28:59.230 --> 00:29:04.170
if you believe the car is responsible, they have

00:29:04.170 --> 00:29:06.390
no responsibility for safety. They just pick.

00:29:06.750 --> 00:29:08.970
And Waymo will say, well, they have driver's

00:29:08.970 --> 00:29:10.569
license and you should feel good they're carefully

00:29:10.569 --> 00:29:12.930
selected. And maybe that will always be true

00:29:12.930 --> 00:29:15.049
for Waymo, even when they come under cross -pressure.

00:29:15.069 --> 00:29:17.750
We'll see how that turns out. But it is not necessarily

00:29:17.750 --> 00:29:20.630
true for every company in every situation over

00:29:20.630 --> 00:29:23.430
all time. And by the way, here's the cognitive

00:29:23.430 --> 00:29:25.930
dissonance. If they have nothing to do with safety,

00:29:26.130 --> 00:29:27.450
why do you care if they have driver licenses?

00:29:27.690 --> 00:29:29.670
Why do you feel need to tell us they have driver

00:29:29.670 --> 00:29:31.329
licenses if they have nothing to do with safety?

00:29:31.809 --> 00:29:34.109
That's trying to put my finger on the cognitive

00:29:34.109 --> 00:29:37.069
dissonance. Gets everyone uncomfortable about

00:29:37.069 --> 00:29:40.269
this. But wait, there's more. If they really

00:29:40.269 --> 00:29:42.269
have nothing to do with safety, if they have

00:29:42.269 --> 00:29:44.150
nothing to do with safety, why isn't some high

00:29:44.150 --> 00:29:46.869
school kids in Thailand who are using their Xbox

00:29:46.869 --> 00:29:50.609
to give the feedback? I don't see. They have

00:29:50.609 --> 00:29:51.809
nothing to do with safety. Why should it matter

00:29:51.809 --> 00:29:54.349
who they are? Well, why is it anybody if it has

00:29:54.349 --> 00:29:57.430
nothing to do with safety? Yeah. Why not? Why

00:29:57.430 --> 00:29:59.420
are they needed? Yeah, I mean, do you turn left

00:29:59.420 --> 00:30:01.900
or right? Well, we're going to have three eight

00:30:01.900 --> 00:30:04.119
-year -olds with their Xbox playing a game, and

00:30:04.119 --> 00:30:06.440
this is an in -game mission. And two of them

00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:08.180
said left, one said right, so we're going with

00:30:08.180 --> 00:30:12.240
left. I mean, and yeah, you think I'm exaggerating,

00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:17.400
but a lot of AI turns out to be repackaging.

00:30:18.690 --> 00:30:21.730
overseas cheap labor and running it through machine

00:30:21.730 --> 00:30:24.069
learning, right? There's the whole deal about

00:30:24.069 --> 00:30:27.150
Mechanical Turks and all that other stuff. And

00:30:27.150 --> 00:30:30.069
you have to assume that if there is cost pressure,

00:30:30.369 --> 00:30:32.349
you get what you incentivize. If there's cost

00:30:32.349 --> 00:30:35.009
pressure and there's no regulatory oversight

00:30:35.009 --> 00:30:39.289
of the quality and the diligence of the remote

00:30:39.289 --> 00:30:41.470
workers, you're going to see a push to the bottom

00:30:41.470 --> 00:30:44.130
on cost. Why would you expect anything else to

00:30:44.130 --> 00:30:48.190
happen? And again, I'll say, you know, Waymo

00:30:48.190 --> 00:30:51.210
is probably the best example of good practices

00:30:51.210 --> 00:30:53.349
in the industry here. So what does that say about

00:30:53.349 --> 00:30:56.390
what's coming our way? Particularly if Congress

00:30:56.390 --> 00:31:00.069
allows for these massive exemptions and expansion

00:31:00.069 --> 00:31:03.890
of current law to allow these types of vehicles

00:31:03.890 --> 00:31:06.670
to scale quickly. I think we're going to see

00:31:06.670 --> 00:31:09.960
some really negative safety outcomes. And to

00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:13.420
be clear, so I was in D .C. at NHTSA and did

00:31:13.420 --> 00:31:14.960
a panel, and there were some other panels there,

00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:19.680
and it was a really interesting day. But on the

00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:25.380
stage, someone said the computer driver, used

00:31:25.380 --> 00:31:26.900
not quite these words, but they said the computer

00:31:26.900 --> 00:31:29.519
driver is responsible for safety, used the word

00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.420
responsible, and it wasn't Waymo. This is an

00:31:32.420 --> 00:31:34.319
industry position. Waymo's out there because

00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:36.859
they have the most cars, but this is the industry

00:31:36.859 --> 00:31:38.960
all singing out the same songbook. And Waymo's

00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:41.460
just the one having the incidents because they

00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:44.059
have a couple thousand. Fred, your numbers were

00:31:44.059 --> 00:31:46.480
about right. It's 2 ,000, 3 ,000 cars and something

00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:48.799
like 70 operators. All right. So I've got a couple

00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:53.200
of questions here. So the computer driver is

00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:56.519
responsible. So the second - ADS, if you want

00:31:56.519 --> 00:31:58.259
to be uptight, it's the automated driving system,

00:31:58.299 --> 00:32:02.299
ADS level 345. So that - computer gets into some

00:32:02.299 --> 00:32:05.460
accident and whatnot. So from an evidentiary

00:32:05.460 --> 00:32:08.180
point of view, is that system software all locked

00:32:08.180 --> 00:32:10.740
down now? So it can't be over the air updated

00:32:10.740 --> 00:32:14.019
by accident because this is, this version is

00:32:14.019 --> 00:32:16.420
involved in an accident. It's responsible. Is

00:32:16.420 --> 00:32:18.980
all of that taken off of the market now? Because

00:32:18.980 --> 00:32:21.839
it doesn't exist in one location. It exists in

00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:26.160
3000 locations at once. Well, if you pull power,

00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:29.220
it started frozen in. Right. Well, that's but

00:32:29.220 --> 00:32:32.700
you have to do that fleet wide. And if you live

00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:35.079
in Oklahoma, you remove the computer and throw

00:32:35.079 --> 00:32:36.980
it in a jail cell, put a new computer in, you're

00:32:36.980 --> 00:32:38.779
good to go because that computer was the one

00:32:38.779 --> 00:32:41.019
that was responsible. And I wonder if the federal

00:32:41.019 --> 00:32:42.920
statute that Michael's talking about ends up

00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:47.460
there. But we you know, it's it's not, you know,

00:32:47.460 --> 00:32:49.579
just physical hardware. That's the computer.

00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:52.079
It's software as well. That's what I'm saying.

00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:54.240
You pull the memories out too. The whole box

00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:57.720
goes in the jail cell. Okay. But do we do that

00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:00.019
with all 3 ,000 Waymo computer drivers out there?

00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:03.240
Those are different computers. That's insane.

00:33:03.259 --> 00:33:05.940
They're different drivers. Oh, that's not. Oh,

00:33:06.059 --> 00:33:08.099
no, no. I'm sorry. Sanity left the building quite

00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:10.940
a while back. Okay. You missed the exit. Got

00:33:10.940 --> 00:33:13.680
it. Okay. So I'm going to try another version.

00:33:13.740 --> 00:33:16.680
So Waymo driving down the street. It's moving

00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:20.369
at 35 miles per hour. I don't know at what distance

00:33:20.369 --> 00:33:24.029
its cameras and sensors see a object that it

00:33:24.029 --> 00:33:27.309
doesn't know what it is. How far out is that?

00:33:27.430 --> 00:33:31.349
100 yards? 500 yards? They go, I mean, even back

00:33:31.349 --> 00:33:35.069
in 2015 when I was roading one in D .C., it was

00:33:35.069 --> 00:33:38.230
hundreds of yards out in front of the vehicle

00:33:38.230 --> 00:33:41.309
the LIDAR was seeing. Okay, so the resolution

00:33:41.309 --> 00:33:43.609
is an issue. But, I mean, so seeing something

00:33:43.609 --> 00:33:46.329
small that far out is hard. But, you know, just

00:33:46.329 --> 00:33:49.750
get a single point back. So basically, if you

00:33:49.750 --> 00:33:52.170
can see it, they can see it, but they see it

00:33:52.170 --> 00:33:54.190
differently and maybe not with the same resolution,

00:33:54.309 --> 00:33:55.809
maybe not with the same depth of perception.

00:33:56.029 --> 00:33:58.470
So my question is, as an object in the road,

00:33:58.529 --> 00:33:59.970
it doesn't know what it is. It's moving at 35

00:33:59.970 --> 00:34:02.990
miles per hour. There's traffic behind it. Is

00:34:02.990 --> 00:34:05.630
it, what is it doing before it calls for help?

00:34:05.750 --> 00:34:09.030
Is it slowing and upsetting the traffic behind

00:34:09.030 --> 00:34:10.489
them? Because everyone goes, it's just a plastic

00:34:10.489 --> 00:34:13.949
bag. Who cares? Or is it getting there, stopping?

00:34:14.130 --> 00:34:17.269
Or is it continuing at the same speed? It depends

00:34:17.269 --> 00:34:22.030
on the company. There's no standard that requires

00:34:22.030 --> 00:34:25.590
it to do anything. Okay, so let's pretend. Now,

00:34:25.590 --> 00:34:27.750
Waymo, I want to be fair to Waymo. What Waymo

00:34:27.750 --> 00:34:30.690
will tell you is the car is 100 % responsible

00:34:30.690 --> 00:34:34.369
for ensuring safety. It phones a friend. Much

00:34:34.369 --> 00:34:37.130
of the time, it figures it out before the friend

00:34:37.130 --> 00:34:39.730
even responds and continues on its way. There

00:34:39.730 --> 00:34:41.130
are a bunch of requests for remote assistance

00:34:41.130 --> 00:34:43.610
that never actually connect. When Cruise had

00:34:43.610 --> 00:34:45.750
these bad numbers about every two to five miles.

00:34:46.460 --> 00:34:47.980
One of the things they said is a bunch of those

00:34:47.980 --> 00:34:50.119
never actually even connect because it sorts

00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:52.780
itself out before we can call home and we're

00:34:52.780 --> 00:34:54.239
doing it proactively. And there's nothing wrong

00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:57.000
with that, right? So be careful. If it calls

00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.159
home and it sorts it on its own, then that's

00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:01.619
fine. You shouldn't say that cost is a, you know,

00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:04.420
I would prefer them to call home more often than

00:35:04.420 --> 00:35:06.400
they need to out of abundance of caution. There

00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:08.880
should not be penalized for that. So it calls

00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:13.900
home and the car is responsible. The Waymo story

00:35:13.900 --> 00:35:16.000
is the car is responsible for safety the entire

00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:19.420
time. So if the person doesn't answer or the

00:35:19.420 --> 00:35:22.119
person takes a long time to respond, that's on

00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:24.500
the car. It's not on the person. Okay. But then

00:35:24.500 --> 00:35:27.440
the person back in headquarters, wherever. At

00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.280
some point, the person provides info and they're

00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:32.940
going to be under time pressure. Why? Because

00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:35.340
it's a call center. All call centers are under

00:35:35.340 --> 00:35:37.880
time pressure. And meanwhile, you're clogging

00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:39.840
up traffic and you've been told not to let the

00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:42.039
thing clog up traffic too long and all these

00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:44.340
other things. So you're under some time pressure.

00:35:44.579 --> 00:35:46.960
You have to gain situational awareness. You have

00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:49.579
to figure out what's happening. In some cases,

00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:51.559
whether or not they do, I don't know. But you

00:35:51.559 --> 00:35:54.059
should review the last 30 seconds of driving

00:35:54.059 --> 00:35:56.639
to find out if there's something under the car

00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:59.059
you can't see that happened to cruise, right?

00:35:59.659 --> 00:36:01.300
The remote assistants didn't have time to respond,

00:36:01.460 --> 00:36:03.059
but that would have been something they would

00:36:03.059 --> 00:36:04.880
have had to deal with when there's pedestrian

00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:08.739
in the car. So to do this properly, you have

00:36:08.739 --> 00:36:10.800
to review how it got there. You have to review

00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:12.860
where you are. You have to decide what to do

00:36:12.860 --> 00:36:15.619
next. And you're looking through cameras and

00:36:15.619 --> 00:36:17.280
you haven't lived it. So you have to go back

00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:19.440
and sort of re -experience it. This can take

00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:21.900
a while. Well, that's what I'm getting at because

00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:24.219
then there's this longer delay and there's also

00:36:24.219 --> 00:36:26.920
the response and this person who's, you know,

00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:28.980
maybe is overworked as an air traffic controller.

00:36:31.410 --> 00:36:33.710
There's another dimension to it, which is that

00:36:33.710 --> 00:36:38.650
there is a process for escalating the issue to

00:36:38.650 --> 00:36:41.929
higher authority. And what Waymo says is that,

00:36:41.929 --> 00:36:44.849
yeah, the initial contact comes into the Philippines

00:36:44.849 --> 00:36:47.909
or somebody like the Philippines, but then they've

00:36:47.909 --> 00:36:50.889
got to take important issues or really dangerous

00:36:50.889 --> 00:36:54.170
issues, promote them to personnel who are in

00:36:54.170 --> 00:36:56.909
Detroit, Michigan, and have them resolve the

00:36:56.909 --> 00:37:00.210
issue. In each case, at each step in the process,

00:37:00.469 --> 00:37:02.489
there's got to be what Phil was talking about,

00:37:02.530 --> 00:37:05.269
the recognition of the situation, development

00:37:05.269 --> 00:37:08.730
of situational awareness, a judgment that the

00:37:08.730 --> 00:37:14.590
issue has to be either disposed of there or escalated

00:37:14.590 --> 00:37:17.889
to a higher issue or to a higher echelon. If

00:37:17.889 --> 00:37:19.869
that happens, then you've got to reestablish

00:37:19.869 --> 00:37:24.789
that situational awareness. This is useless for

00:37:24.789 --> 00:37:28.469
any active safety issue that comes up as the

00:37:28.469 --> 00:37:30.090
car is moving along because you simply don't

00:37:30.090 --> 00:37:33.489
have the time to respond with the human input,

00:37:33.570 --> 00:37:36.570
even if they're responsible or if they're not

00:37:36.570 --> 00:37:38.329
responsible. You have no time for that human

00:37:38.329 --> 00:37:41.630
input before the Waymo is going to bang into

00:37:41.630 --> 00:37:45.329
that situation. Yeah, so realistically, the car

00:37:45.329 --> 00:37:48.650
has to be able to be safe no matter what. It

00:37:48.650 --> 00:37:51.530
can call for remote assistance. And if you have

00:37:51.530 --> 00:37:53.710
a time -dependent issue, that's a problem because

00:37:53.710 --> 00:37:56.619
time pressure is the enemy of getting, these

00:37:56.619 --> 00:37:58.320
answers right. You don't want time pressure.

00:37:58.900 --> 00:38:01.300
Now, when you're done, you can say, okay, the

00:38:01.300 --> 00:38:03.059
car has pulled itself to the side of the road,

00:38:03.139 --> 00:38:05.599
but we're in an intersection. Can we move two

00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:07.000
meters forward to get out of the intersection?

00:38:07.380 --> 00:38:09.199
And it's okay to take two or three minutes to

00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:10.860
figure this out because people are honking at

00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:13.000
you, but things are stable. Sure. There's nothing

00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.860
wrong with that at all. As long as you can see

00:38:14.860 --> 00:38:16.460
the two or three meters and a bunch of other

00:38:16.460 --> 00:38:19.800
things. But if you're at a light that's changing

00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:23.019
colors and the question is, do I go now? You're

00:38:23.019 --> 00:38:25.000
just asking for trouble. And we've seen that

00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:27.579
trouble occur, apparently. Right. But it's the

00:38:27.579 --> 00:38:29.039
computer that's at fault. All right. That's a

00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.119
really good gaslight. Now, Michael, I got to

00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:33.920
ask you before we move on, is Phil right in that

00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:36.480
it's the individual computer that caused the

00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:38.579
problem? Or is my argument being like they're

00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:40.780
all running the same software and hardware? More

00:38:40.780 --> 00:38:44.929
or less. That it should be all of them. All of

00:38:44.929 --> 00:38:48.190
who? All of the Waymo drivers. All of the drivers?

00:38:48.550 --> 00:38:52.250
Because they're all the same software, theoretically.

00:38:52.670 --> 00:38:55.010
I have a hard time even understanding what that

00:38:55.010 --> 00:38:57.150
question means, since we don't really have any

00:38:57.150 --> 00:38:59.809
reference for how the computer system could be

00:38:59.809 --> 00:39:02.309
liable in the first place, right? Well, Utah

00:39:02.309 --> 00:39:04.070
is in the middle of passing a law, so this is

00:39:04.070 --> 00:39:05.789
going to be really interesting. Governor's going

00:39:05.789 --> 00:39:09.230
to sign a law. So, Anthony, this gets down to,

00:39:09.349 --> 00:39:13.010
is it a product defect or is it... the equivalent

00:39:13.010 --> 00:39:14.710
of a driver defect. If it's a product defect,

00:39:14.889 --> 00:39:17.250
they're all defective, right? But if you're going

00:39:17.250 --> 00:39:20.489
after this particular car made a mistake and

00:39:20.489 --> 00:39:23.869
we're going to hold that car's driver accountable

00:39:23.869 --> 00:39:26.710
and not ask the product defect question, because

00:39:26.710 --> 00:39:29.110
you get a machine learning that isn't really

00:39:29.110 --> 00:39:32.230
defective because the best you can do is 99%.

00:39:32.230 --> 00:39:34.530
No technology that's cost -effective would do

00:39:34.530 --> 00:39:37.130
better. 99 % is all you get. 1 % of the time,

00:39:37.150 --> 00:39:39.469
it just runs the light. I hope the numbers are

00:39:39.469 --> 00:39:41.650
better than that. I'm using an easy number. But

00:39:41.650 --> 00:39:44.250
that could be technically not a defective product,

00:39:44.309 --> 00:39:47.110
which is not a very good one. And if you want

00:39:47.110 --> 00:39:49.630
to say, well, the 1%, you need to hold it accountable,

00:39:49.909 --> 00:39:53.510
then none of them are defective. It's just once

00:39:53.510 --> 00:39:55.050
in a while it makes a mistake and you decided

00:39:55.050 --> 00:39:56.829
it's important to hold them accountable when

00:39:56.829 --> 00:40:00.829
they do. So it could be a single car for negligence

00:40:00.829 --> 00:40:03.150
-style liability. And it could be all the cars

00:40:03.150 --> 00:40:05.090
for product liability. The question is, what

00:40:05.090 --> 00:40:07.449
theory are you pursuing when you try and hold

00:40:07.449 --> 00:40:09.610
it accountable there? Well, there's going to

00:40:09.610 --> 00:40:11.510
be some... interesting lawsuits in the future.

00:40:12.170 --> 00:40:14.630
Well, ultimately, if you can't hold the human

00:40:14.630 --> 00:40:17.769
actors and the corporations behind all this responsible,

00:40:18.050 --> 00:40:20.630
then I don't know that anything makes sense here.

00:40:20.769 --> 00:40:22.690
I mean, at some point, don't we reach just this

00:40:22.690 --> 00:40:27.449
area of absurdity in the law that requires someone

00:40:27.449 --> 00:40:30.670
to pin the tail on, right? Well, it's absurd,

00:40:30.750 --> 00:40:32.489
but I think where they're going is they're going

00:40:32.489 --> 00:40:35.409
to say, all right, because in Utah, I think it's

00:40:35.409 --> 00:40:39.510
only $100 ,000, right? It's a low number. And

00:40:39.510 --> 00:40:41.710
a million dollars for pain and suffering, which

00:40:41.710 --> 00:40:44.809
compared to the new, the feds just came out with

00:40:44.809 --> 00:40:47.590
a new number that's, I think, 14 .2 million value

00:40:47.590 --> 00:40:50.150
of human life. That's the number for 2025, right?

00:40:50.309 --> 00:40:52.829
So it's a factor, more than a factor of 10, factor

00:40:52.829 --> 00:40:56.750
10, factor 100 off. But as a practical matter,

00:40:56.889 --> 00:40:58.630
if you really want to go this way, which I think

00:40:58.630 --> 00:41:01.010
Michael and I both have a problem with, but if

00:41:01.010 --> 00:41:02.530
you want to go this way, you say, look, you carry

00:41:02.530 --> 00:41:05.050
$100 ,000 of insurance. That money's in play.

00:41:05.170 --> 00:41:07.550
If there's a crash, the insurance pays off or

00:41:07.550 --> 00:41:11.010
it doesn't. Max pot is 100K after that. Too bad.

00:41:12.949 --> 00:41:15.389
Crazy. Crazy. That's where they're going. That's

00:41:15.389 --> 00:41:18.329
the path they're on. Oh, boy. Now, the Utah law

00:41:18.329 --> 00:41:20.150
is a little interesting because it says, you

00:41:20.150 --> 00:41:22.909
know, a plaintiff is not required to prove a

00:41:22.909 --> 00:41:24.670
product defect. I mean, there's some interesting

00:41:24.670 --> 00:41:27.110
parts in it, right? It smells like tort negligence

00:41:27.110 --> 00:41:29.030
right there. Yeah. They think they're trying

00:41:29.030 --> 00:41:31.309
to, the path I said is, is you don't have to

00:41:31.309 --> 00:41:32.849
prove product defect. You just have to prove

00:41:32.849 --> 00:41:35.110
the thing ran a red light and hit you. And you

00:41:35.110 --> 00:41:39.329
have access to up to $100 ,000. for direct damages.

00:41:39.530 --> 00:41:41.650
And if it's more than $100 ,000, well, you're

00:41:41.650 --> 00:41:43.630
going to have to prove product defect now. So

00:41:43.630 --> 00:41:47.570
I like the fact this law exists because it's

00:41:47.570 --> 00:41:49.630
finally trying to admit that product liability

00:41:49.630 --> 00:41:52.489
is the wrong tool for the job. But I don't think

00:41:52.489 --> 00:41:55.030
this law gets us all the way there. No. And I

00:41:55.030 --> 00:41:58.190
think the law also eliminates punitive damages,

00:41:58.289 --> 00:42:02.889
which are necessary to, you know, whip into shape

00:42:02.889 --> 00:42:06.659
bad actors in the industry. I haven't talked

00:42:06.659 --> 00:42:08.579
to them, but I'm going to say that if the car

00:42:08.579 --> 00:42:10.179
companies are unhappy and Michael's unhappy,

00:42:10.460 --> 00:42:11.880
they're going to declare it a compromise and

00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:16.400
move on, right? Hey, listeners, if you like tort

00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:20.219
negligence, I prefer a lemon tort, go to autosavvy

00:42:20.219 --> 00:42:22.900
.org and click on Donate. And with that, Mr.

00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:26.139
Perkins, you have a gaslight. I do, and this

00:42:26.139 --> 00:42:29.460
is kind of a complex one, but it is a gaslight

00:42:29.460 --> 00:42:33.019
that's related to a company called Wave with

00:42:33.019 --> 00:42:39.130
an assist from The Guardian. And Waymo. So jump

00:42:39.130 --> 00:42:41.070
right into it. There was an article published

00:42:41.070 --> 00:42:43.510
in The Guardian called We Don't Tell the Car

00:42:43.510 --> 00:42:46.750
What It Should Do, My Ride in a Self -Driving

00:42:46.750 --> 00:42:51.789
Taxi. And Steve Rose goes for a drive in a car

00:42:51.789 --> 00:42:55.210
developed by a company called Wave, which is

00:42:55.210 --> 00:43:00.030
trying to compete with Waymo and other similar

00:43:00.030 --> 00:43:04.219
companies in England. And so he took a drive

00:43:04.219 --> 00:43:08.360
in a car and he says driverless robo -taxis will

00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:10.780
be accepting fares in Britain's biggest city

00:43:10.780 --> 00:43:14.920
by the end of next year. And then the president

00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:17.440
of the company Wave says, I'm really excited

00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:22.920
to show you this, says Alex Kendall. And so they

00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:26.079
get in the car and, quoting from the article,

00:43:26.199 --> 00:43:29.579
by the time I step out, 20 minutes later. I'm

00:43:29.579 --> 00:43:32.079
convinced Wave is a better driver than most humans.

00:43:33.059 --> 00:43:35.019
Well, it's interesting because what the hell

00:43:35.019 --> 00:43:37.659
is he basing that on? He's one person in one

00:43:37.659 --> 00:43:42.539
car. He has crossed maybe a thousand cars going

00:43:42.539 --> 00:43:44.679
in another direction, all of whom apparently

00:43:44.679 --> 00:43:49.079
reached their destination safely. So why in the

00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:51.460
world does he think that there's somehow something

00:43:51.460 --> 00:43:54.840
superior about his uneventful trip compared to

00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:56.760
all the other uneventful trips he's been observing?

00:43:57.670 --> 00:44:01.170
He never really explains that. But there's a

00:44:01.170 --> 00:44:05.769
couple of details that are worth noting. Kendall

00:44:05.769 --> 00:44:08.489
says, the president of WAVE, says, this is how

00:44:08.489 --> 00:44:11.969
WAVE's AI differs from other versions. It's got

00:44:11.969 --> 00:44:13.869
a sense of being able to predict how the world

00:44:13.869 --> 00:44:17.389
works, how to predict risk and safety. It's actually

00:44:17.389 --> 00:44:20.909
understanding the dynamics of the scene. Nonsense.

00:44:21.150 --> 00:44:24.269
All nonsense, right? It's understanding, Fred.

00:44:24.369 --> 00:44:29.429
Come on. So this is a great example, I think.

00:44:29.489 --> 00:44:32.349
He says, when another driver flashes their lights,

00:44:32.550 --> 00:44:35.130
our car understands that they're letting us go

00:44:35.130 --> 00:44:38.590
first. Now, my interpretation of that is, if

00:44:38.590 --> 00:44:42.010
the car detects a flashing light, it assumes

00:44:42.010 --> 00:44:44.849
it has the right of way. This seems incredibly

00:44:44.849 --> 00:44:46.590
dangerous to me because there's a hell of a lot

00:44:46.590 --> 00:44:49.210
of flashing lights out there. But, you know,

00:44:49.230 --> 00:44:52.840
that's one of his accomplishments. He goes on

00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:54.980
to say, globally, we've driven over 7 million

00:44:54.980 --> 00:44:59.119
miles all autonomously, Kendall says. And Phil,

00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:03.199
you might chime in. Is 7 million miles a lot

00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:07.079
to establish the safety of an AV system? Add

00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:12.780
three, four zeros to get there. Yep. And, yeah,

00:45:12.900 --> 00:45:15.599
3040 is trailing the 7, not in front of the 7.

00:45:15.739 --> 00:45:17.900
That's fair enough. Fair enough. You got me.

00:45:18.519 --> 00:45:23.079
Just to be clear with people. It's not 007. No.

00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:27.000
But he says, like a human driver, Waves AI knows

00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:29.619
enough to figure out new situations, Kendall

00:45:29.619 --> 00:45:34.360
claims. Good for them. Now he goes on to say

00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:38.980
that first -generation autonomous vehicles. such

00:45:38.980 --> 00:45:42.739
as those made by Tesla and Waymo, operated essentially

00:45:42.739 --> 00:45:44.820
by breaking down the problem of driving into

00:45:44.820 --> 00:45:47.019
discrete areas, meaning that's a rule -based

00:45:47.019 --> 00:45:50.539
software system for the operation of those vehicles.

00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:53.079
Then he goes on to say, by contrast, Kendall

00:45:53.079 --> 00:45:57.119
says, Wave was built on end -to -end AI, so it's

00:45:57.119 --> 00:45:58.980
one big neural network that has the intelligence

00:45:58.980 --> 00:46:02.760
to make decisions. Both Tesla and Waymo now also

00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:07.480
utilize forms of end -to -end AI, which means

00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:11.429
that Even though there are significant shortcomings

00:46:11.429 --> 00:46:14.869
in the statistics for safety revealed by both

00:46:14.869 --> 00:46:18.730
Tesla and Waymo, they're both trailing indicators

00:46:18.730 --> 00:46:20.650
that have nothing to do with future behavior.

00:46:21.010 --> 00:46:23.610
It's like saying the United States has had major

00:46:23.610 --> 00:46:26.150
wars every 20 years, so every 20 years we're

00:46:26.150 --> 00:46:28.349
going to have a major war. I don't think that

00:46:28.349 --> 00:46:34.070
follows. But it also says that what they've said

00:46:34.070 --> 00:46:37.170
in the past and their claims about safety statistics.

00:46:38.539 --> 00:46:41.639
are unrelated to the way they're currently operating

00:46:41.639 --> 00:46:43.420
their vehicles because they've completely changed,

00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:46.019
as Phil said, the software stack, and they're

00:46:46.019 --> 00:46:48.199
now doing something completely different than

00:46:48.199 --> 00:46:51.300
what they were doing when they made their previous

00:46:51.300 --> 00:46:54.599
safety claims, which, again, I love saying this,

00:46:54.780 --> 00:46:57.659
were unsupported by the references they put on

00:46:57.659 --> 00:47:01.840
their website that is the basis of their safety

00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:09.380
claims. A few more things here. Waves cars don't

00:47:09.380 --> 00:47:12.559
use it at present. LiDAR. Kendall says Waves

00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:16.019
AI is adaptable to any system. That's a hell

00:47:16.019 --> 00:47:21.579
of an AI. You just throw anything at it and it's

00:47:21.579 --> 00:47:28.219
all good. Anyway, noting that Waymo and Apollo

00:47:28.219 --> 00:47:31.559
Go are by far the two largest robot taxi operators

00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:36.599
in the world. Waymo completes 450 ,000 rides

00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:38.909
a week. Boy, that seems like a lot. And Apollo

00:47:38.909 --> 00:47:42.349
Go recording 250 ,000 rides a week. Going back

00:47:42.349 --> 00:47:46.429
to AVSC, noting that Apollo Go is not included

00:47:46.429 --> 00:47:50.829
in the AVSC coalition. Neither is Tesla. So really

00:47:50.829 --> 00:47:54.570
the largest producers of self -driving vehicles

00:47:54.570 --> 00:47:57.809
in the world are only represented by Waymo in

00:47:57.809 --> 00:48:01.469
the AVSC. AVSC is basically set up to pretend

00:48:01.469 --> 00:48:03.809
that there's a safety standard that's written

00:48:03.809 --> 00:48:07.559
exclusively by the manufacturers. for their own

00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:11.360
benefit, and without any input from third parties

00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:17.179
or interested advocates like us. So there's a

00:48:17.179 --> 00:48:21.760
problem here. And I'm going to leave it there,

00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:25.280
I guess, because, well, one more. In response,

00:48:25.460 --> 00:48:27.599
a Waymo spokesperson pointed to a recent poll

00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:31.000
of people in San Francisco that said 73 % feel

00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:34.469
safe with Waymos on their streets. And 68 % say

00:48:34.469 --> 00:48:36.730
the vehicles have a positive impact on road safety.

00:48:37.469 --> 00:48:40.710
This is the result of PR and the creation of

00:48:40.710 --> 00:48:43.929
an urban myth by Waymo. So I think I've made

00:48:43.929 --> 00:48:49.610
my case here. And I'm giving Waymo, actually,

00:48:49.809 --> 00:48:54.250
and Wave the Gaslight of the Week award with

00:48:54.250 --> 00:48:58.250
an assist to The Guardian. Okay, that's a complex

00:48:58.250 --> 00:49:02.440
trifecta. Let me comment on one aspect of that,

00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:06.119
which I think is sort of important. When someone

00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:09.579
takes a ride in a Waymo or Tesla FSD, you hear

00:49:09.579 --> 00:49:12.159
these, oh, I did Tesla FSD, it's a better driver

00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:15.960
than I am, kind of quotes, right? Or the Wave

00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:20.119
quote. With 70 million miles, you don't have

00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:22.199
statistical significance for safety, and we all

00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:24.000
know for life -critical safety, we know that.

00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:28.059
Why are they saying it's better? There's a difference

00:49:28.059 --> 00:49:33.500
between driving fluency and safety. So I expect

00:49:33.500 --> 00:49:36.420
a good, solid end -to -end machine learning to

00:49:36.420 --> 00:49:39.059
be better at driver fluency than a rule -based

00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:42.599
system because it has spent all its computations

00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:45.880
learning to how to act like a person. So when

00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:47.840
someone flashes your lights, if you see a couple

00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:49.920
white lights attached to something that looks

00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:52.460
like a car and it's about the right elevation

00:49:52.460 --> 00:49:55.519
and angle to be at an intersection. And the last

00:49:55.519 --> 00:49:58.619
thousand times a human driver saw that they turned

00:49:58.619 --> 00:50:01.139
in front, it's going to turn in front too. It's

00:50:01.139 --> 00:50:03.840
going to be, I mean, if you have an LLM, an LLM

00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:07.239
is spooky the way it talks like it's a person,

00:50:07.340 --> 00:50:10.239
right? So why is it hard to believe that you

00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:12.380
have an equivalent foundation model based on

00:50:12.380 --> 00:50:14.980
driving data that is spooky and that it drives

00:50:14.980 --> 00:50:17.420
like a person? That's not a hard stretch, but

00:50:17.420 --> 00:50:20.070
that's driving fluency. It isn't necessarily

00:50:20.070 --> 00:50:22.769
safety. Now, fluency and safety go together at

00:50:22.769 --> 00:50:25.210
if you can't go 100 feet without hitting something,

00:50:25.530 --> 00:50:28.469
well, that's pretty unsafe. And fluency means

00:50:28.469 --> 00:50:30.449
you're not hitting stuff every block. Okay, cool.

00:50:30.570 --> 00:50:33.230
But that's the beginning of the safety journey,

00:50:33.329 --> 00:50:37.869
not the end. And fluency doesn't predict what's

00:50:37.869 --> 00:50:39.869
going to happen when something unexpected happens,

00:50:40.010 --> 00:50:42.030
which is where most of the hardcore safety stuff

00:50:42.030 --> 00:50:44.750
lives. So you can get the feeling that it's a

00:50:44.750 --> 00:50:47.530
safer driver. Because you're modeling on it,

00:50:47.550 --> 00:50:50.389
does it feel like a good human driver? And the

00:50:50.389 --> 00:50:52.170
best ones are going to feel just like a good

00:50:52.170 --> 00:50:55.949
human driver. But in a 10 -minute, one -hour

00:50:55.949 --> 00:50:58.969
ride, you're not going to see the one -in -a

00:50:58.969 --> 00:51:01.190
-million -hour things that's out where fatal

00:51:01.190 --> 00:51:04.510
crashes live. So that's why it feels sort of

00:51:04.510 --> 00:51:07.869
like a paradox. Oh, thanks. That's a great point.

00:51:08.050 --> 00:51:10.110
One other thing I want to say about this article

00:51:10.110 --> 00:51:12.969
in The Guardian. is that they ended it by saying,

00:51:13.070 --> 00:51:15.369
if you'd like to submit a response of up to 300

00:51:15.369 --> 00:51:18.210
words by email to be considered for publication,

00:51:18.730 --> 00:51:25.030
please click here. It was a dead link. It was

00:51:25.030 --> 00:51:26.949
just dead just for you, though. Yeah, it was

00:51:26.949 --> 00:51:29.210
dead just for Fred. They must have known I was

00:51:29.210 --> 00:51:31.889
going to read it, I guess. Special for Fred,

00:51:31.949 --> 00:51:34.550
absolutely. You should just enter that into an

00:51:34.550 --> 00:51:36.530
LLM and be like, hey, why is this link dead?

00:51:36.650 --> 00:51:38.610
And we'll come back and say, excellent question.

00:51:38.670 --> 00:51:40.880
You're very insightful. Let me think about that.

00:51:41.460 --> 00:51:45.280
Mr. Brooks, gaslight me. All right. My gaslight

00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:48.199
this week is going to the Washington Post editorial

00:51:48.199 --> 00:51:51.940
board. Oh, you sneaky son of a. OK. They wrote

00:51:51.940 --> 00:51:55.719
this opinion piece generally centered around

00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:58.179
the district. Department of Transportation, which

00:51:58.179 --> 00:52:01.760
is very late on a study that was directed by

00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:03.920
the city council a number of years ago to allow

00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:06.940
to start the process for AVs to go to the nation's

00:52:06.940 --> 00:52:10.480
capital. But the Post's commentary on it sounds

00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:14.619
strangely familiar as if they are going directly

00:52:14.619 --> 00:52:16.699
off industry talking points. So I'll give a few

00:52:16.699 --> 00:52:20.199
examples of that. First off, they essentially

00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:23.199
accused the D .C. Department of Transportation

00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:26.829
of sabotaging the rollout of all vehicles in

00:52:26.829 --> 00:52:29.409
the nation's capital, which I think is just jumping

00:52:29.409 --> 00:52:32.309
the shark to the extent that, you know, I don't

00:52:32.309 --> 00:52:33.730
think that the D .C. Department of Transportation

00:52:33.730 --> 00:52:36.030
is actively attempting to sabotage autonomous

00:52:36.030 --> 00:52:38.829
vehicles. It's a difficult issue. The D .C. Department

00:52:38.829 --> 00:52:40.809
of Transportation is probably trying to catch

00:52:40.809 --> 00:52:42.789
up and probably, like most government agencies,

00:52:42.869 --> 00:52:46.130
underfunded and incapable of doing so. But here's

00:52:46.130 --> 00:52:49.090
where it starts really getting good. Robo taxis

00:52:49.090 --> 00:52:51.309
operated by Waymo, the leading AV firm, have

00:52:51.309 --> 00:52:54.030
logged more than 170 million fully autonomous

00:52:54.030 --> 00:52:57.329
miles with a safety record that puts human drivers

00:52:57.329 --> 00:53:01.769
to shame. Clearly. That we've heard from industry

00:53:01.769 --> 00:53:06.369
over and over that type of nonsense around statistically

00:53:06.369 --> 00:53:11.329
insignificant miles. Next, if the district doesn't

00:53:11.329 --> 00:53:14.130
move forward. maintenance and support operations

00:53:14.130 --> 00:53:17.070
to Maryland, or legislators seem friendlier to

00:53:17.070 --> 00:53:19.630
the idea of letting Waymo vehicles operate. It

00:53:19.630 --> 00:53:23.190
would be a sad legacy for Mayor Bowser if Maryland

00:53:23.190 --> 00:53:25.530
beats the capital city to the technology of the

00:53:25.530 --> 00:53:28.769
future. If anything, that sounds exactly like

00:53:28.769 --> 00:53:31.289
the arguments that are being made regarding China

00:53:31.289 --> 00:53:33.949
moving ahead of the industry in the United States

00:53:33.949 --> 00:53:36.869
and why regulations need to be relaxed here.

00:53:37.739 --> 00:53:40.079
continual drumbeat for the end from the industry

00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:44.699
and finally given these vehicles enviable safety

00:53:44.699 --> 00:53:47.619
record the city ought to and i'm paraphrasing

00:53:47.619 --> 00:53:49.639
here a little bit the city ought to move past

00:53:49.639 --> 00:53:52.500
safety drivers move past fully autonomous testing

00:53:52.500 --> 00:53:57.119
and move directly to full deployment um And for

00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:00.179
basically serving as a mouthpiece for the AV

00:54:00.179 --> 00:54:03.980
industry in this new formulation of the Washington

00:54:03.980 --> 00:54:07.340
Post editorial board, I will give them my gaslight

00:54:07.340 --> 00:54:10.079
this week. Excellent. Well done. You missed my

00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:12.320
favorite quote from that article that said D

00:54:12.320 --> 00:54:14.539
.C. streets are no more complicated or dangerous

00:54:14.539 --> 00:54:17.519
than those of Los Angeles or San Francisco. Yes,

00:54:17.559 --> 00:54:20.179
that is insane. If anyone's ever been to D .C.,

00:54:20.179 --> 00:54:22.800
D .C. streets will run parallel to themselves.

00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:27.260
It's the. Most bizarre. I blame the French for

00:54:27.260 --> 00:54:30.920
this. Michael, were they were that was that commission

00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:33.099
late or were they passive aggressively late?

00:54:33.159 --> 00:54:36.340
How late was it? You know, I think they were

00:54:36.340 --> 00:54:40.099
about five, six years late. I mean, OK, in fairness,

00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:42.260
that sounds passive aggressively late. Yeah.

00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:44.599
I mean, I mean, having followed having followed

00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:47.619
NHTSA for all these years, you know, five to

00:54:47.619 --> 00:54:50.980
six years. Doesn't seem unusual, but, you know,

00:54:50.980 --> 00:54:53.239
it's a special, special case here. All right.

00:54:53.239 --> 00:54:55.699
Well, I'm going to do my gas light that Michael

00:54:55.699 --> 00:54:58.239
assigned to me that that I actually kind of like.

00:54:58.300 --> 00:55:02.119
It is not Waymo. It's Tesla. What? No. And it's

00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:06.039
Tesla semi trucks. Oh, yeah. That just in itself.

00:55:06.139 --> 00:55:08.980
That's the gas light. So Tesla started putting

00:55:08.980 --> 00:55:11.579
out its semi trucks and the Washington, the Wall

00:55:11.579 --> 00:55:15.219
Street Journal has this very it's like Waymo's

00:55:15.219 --> 00:55:18.380
PR wrote it. It's. It's the chef's kiss of just

00:55:18.380 --> 00:55:20.940
nonsense because they talk to a bunch of drivers

00:55:20.940 --> 00:55:22.360
and say, this is the best thing in the world

00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:24.980
ever. It's so good. It's like because I get to

00:55:24.980 --> 00:55:26.420
sit in the center of the cockpit and I don't

00:55:26.420 --> 00:55:28.559
have to shift gears anymore. I mean, that sounds

00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:30.059
great. You don't have to shift gears on an 18

00:55:30.059 --> 00:55:32.659
wheeler. I mean, that sounds easier, but it's

00:55:32.659 --> 00:55:35.320
just an electric engine. There's nothing unique

00:55:35.320 --> 00:55:38.019
about Tesla there. But then when I go to back

00:55:38.019 --> 00:55:39.880
up and everything, it's great. I normally have

00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:41.860
to get out of the car and look around. But this

00:55:41.860 --> 00:55:44.920
has cameras everywhere. You can just go and down

00:55:44.920 --> 00:55:47.630
to. some local store and get cameras that will

00:55:47.630 --> 00:55:50.130
help you do that today. There's nothing unique

00:55:50.130 --> 00:55:54.349
about this. Uh, but then the article ends with,

00:55:54.409 --> 00:55:56.929
and this is amazing. I had to look this up. Someone

00:55:56.929 --> 00:56:00.750
saying, um, he said that the semi pulled a 25

00:56:00.750 --> 00:56:03.690
,000 pound load of dog food up a mountain pass

00:56:03.690 --> 00:56:07.190
as though it wasn't even there. I'm not a truck

00:56:07.190 --> 00:56:09.989
driver at 25 ,000 pound load. That sounds like

00:56:09.989 --> 00:56:13.289
a lot. It's not an 18 wheeler carries double

00:56:13.289 --> 00:56:17.960
that. So, OK, they're doing this. The article

00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:21.699
also quotes that the company is expected to deliver

00:56:21.699 --> 00:56:26.239
between 5000 and 15000 semis in 2026 before ramping

00:56:26.239 --> 00:56:29.159
up to 50000 trucks a year, according to a recent

00:56:29.159 --> 00:56:32.699
report by Tigris Financial Partners. Tigris Financial

00:56:32.699 --> 00:56:34.760
Partners, that sounds like a legitimate firm.

00:56:34.900 --> 00:56:38.760
So I look them up. It looks like a website that

00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:43.429
was built in 1988. Yes, 1998, 1988. It almost

00:56:43.429 --> 00:56:47.170
looks like a gopher page. It's ridiculous. I

00:56:47.170 --> 00:56:49.989
don't want to get into specifics because it just

00:56:49.989 --> 00:56:52.250
could be poorly written stuff. But you look at

00:56:52.250 --> 00:56:55.829
some of it and you're like, this is somebody,

00:56:55.989 --> 00:56:58.829
this is a joke. Like it does not look like a

00:56:58.829 --> 00:57:02.369
real organization at all. And sadly, this is

00:57:02.369 --> 00:57:04.610
what the Wall Street Journal did as their background.

00:57:04.889 --> 00:57:07.510
I mean, it's literally just quote what Elon Musk

00:57:07.510 --> 00:57:09.429
says, because all of the financial firms that.

00:57:10.100 --> 00:57:13.920
push tesla they literally as i've had many back

00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:17.260
and forth with arc financial is uh i say hey

00:57:17.260 --> 00:57:18.880
where's your source for this information and

00:57:18.880 --> 00:57:22.199
they show me tweets from elon i'm like that that's

00:57:22.199 --> 00:57:25.679
not a legitimate source come on what are you

00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:28.079
talking about so the fact that they're going

00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:32.679
to deliver between 5 000 and 15 000 uh that that's

00:57:32.679 --> 00:57:35.880
that's not a rounding error that's that's a pretty

00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:38.960
big difference like That's, you know, that's

00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:41.579
changing how your production model runs for the

00:57:41.579 --> 00:57:46.260
rest of the year. So my gaslight is the Wall

00:57:46.260 --> 00:57:49.659
Street Journal. Oh, yeah, there we go. I did

00:57:49.659 --> 00:57:53.300
it. Now, Fred made a request this week. He said

00:57:53.300 --> 00:57:56.699
that I shouldn't be able to judge the gaslight,

00:57:56.880 --> 00:58:00.019
which I frankly think Fred's gaslighting me.

00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:03.320
That's horseshit. But he said, let's have Phil

00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:08.690
judge this week. Our guest of honor, Judge the

00:58:08.690 --> 00:58:11.210
Gaslight winner of this week. Oh, you better

00:58:11.210 --> 00:58:14.789
be careful what you ask for. Yeah, I'm rooting

00:58:14.789 --> 00:58:17.449
for you to do the right thing. First of all,

00:58:17.449 --> 00:58:20.570
Anthony, my benchmark is 30 ,000 pounds of bananas,

00:58:20.670 --> 00:58:22.449
so I know that the number's higher than that.

00:58:23.030 --> 00:58:26.530
That's the number I know. Okay, good. Especially

00:58:26.530 --> 00:58:28.070
if you're heading down a hill in the Scranton,

00:58:28.090 --> 00:58:29.889
but only some people will get that reference.

00:58:30.449 --> 00:58:32.730
I'd do it just if you're hauling string beans

00:58:32.730 --> 00:58:38.460
to Utah. There you go. Okay, so. You warned me

00:58:38.460 --> 00:58:40.400
this was going to happen. So I'm not unawares.

00:58:40.460 --> 00:58:43.480
But it was like, well, usually you would give

00:58:43.480 --> 00:58:45.079
it to your guest. You give the gift to your guest.

00:58:45.099 --> 00:58:47.099
And I'm the guest. But you can't give it to yourself

00:58:47.099 --> 00:58:49.340
if you're the judge. That's bad form. No, it's

00:58:49.340 --> 00:58:52.739
not bad form. What are you talking about? Thank

00:58:52.739 --> 00:58:55.500
you. Thank you for highlighting that. I softballed

00:58:55.500 --> 00:58:57.880
that to you. Do the right thing. Choose yourself.

00:58:58.280 --> 00:59:02.809
So I have an answer that pleases everyone. We

00:59:02.809 --> 00:59:05.429
all get a trophy. She's giving me this. Yes,

00:59:05.530 --> 00:59:08.190
we all get trophies. That's correct. It's a participation

00:59:08.190 --> 00:59:11.110
award. All right. Participation trophy. She's

00:59:11.110 --> 00:59:14.730
like the president. I love that. All right. Green

00:59:14.730 --> 00:59:17.170
ribbons for everyone. All right. Go for it. We

00:59:17.170 --> 00:59:19.250
all get an award. Really? That's your answer?

00:59:19.449 --> 00:59:21.070
That's it. That's the answer. Everyone gets an

00:59:21.070 --> 00:59:25.429
award. Oh, God. All right. All right. One last

00:59:25.429 --> 00:59:29.130
thing before we jump into recalls. This was fascinating.

00:59:29.289 --> 00:59:32.380
There's an article in Ars Technica. And of course,

00:59:32.380 --> 00:59:34.820
I never thought about this. It's titled After

00:59:34.820 --> 00:59:37.440
Hackers Hidden Iowa Company Cars Around the Country

00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:40.059
Failed to Start. Just a quick story on this.

00:59:40.119 --> 00:59:42.840
This is a company that sells interlock systems,

00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:45.159
breathalyzers for people who have been convicted,

00:59:45.179 --> 00:59:47.480
I guess, of DUIs. They have to blow on this to

00:59:47.480 --> 00:59:49.159
get their car to start to show that, hey, I'm

00:59:49.159 --> 00:59:53.460
not drunk. But hackers managed to hack the company

00:59:53.460 --> 00:59:56.579
behind this and access their database. So none

00:59:56.579 --> 00:59:59.099
of these breathalyzer systems will work, which

00:59:59.099 --> 01:00:01.619
is. Because apparently while you're driving,

01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:04.480
it will randomly ask you at times to blow into

01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:09.179
it to make sure that you're still sober. That

01:00:09.179 --> 01:00:11.239
sounds like a good idea, but it also sounds incredibly

01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:14.460
dangerous. So you're going 65 miles down the

01:00:14.460 --> 01:00:17.820
highway, hey, blow into this pipe for a second.

01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:22.019
But now hackers have knocked this system offline.

01:00:22.599 --> 01:00:25.340
So I think autonomous vehicles and everything

01:00:25.340 --> 01:00:27.880
coming forward, computer connected, will be safe

01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:30.679
and great. Yeah. I mean, basically, once you're

01:00:30.679 --> 01:00:33.800
in the system, you have to go and get the device

01:00:33.800 --> 01:00:36.960
calibrated every month. If you're not able to

01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:40.059
do that, the device shuts down. You can't drive

01:00:40.059 --> 01:00:42.559
because most states, you have to put this on

01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:44.440
one car. If you drive, you have to drive that

01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:47.820
one car. So these folks, I don't feel sorry for

01:00:47.820 --> 01:00:50.199
a lot of them, by the way, or any of them, really,

01:00:50.320 --> 01:00:52.739
since there's a reason why they're putting this

01:00:52.739 --> 01:00:54.320
device in their car. And it's something else

01:00:54.320 --> 01:00:58.860
that we are pretty... adamant about stopping

01:00:58.860 --> 01:01:02.320
which is drunk driving But here, you know, the

01:01:02.320 --> 01:01:05.780
folks couldn't go in and get their calibrations

01:01:05.780 --> 01:01:07.679
done, which means they would be locked out of

01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:09.980
their vehicle and unable to drive, unable to

01:01:09.980 --> 01:01:11.659
get to work, that sort of thing. That's clearly

01:01:11.659 --> 01:01:14.639
a problem. But, you know, like Anthony alluded

01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:18.659
to, this is, you know, just one of many, many,

01:01:18.679 --> 01:01:21.199
many databases out there that probably aren't

01:01:21.199 --> 01:01:23.719
totally secure that could impact vehicle safety

01:01:23.719 --> 01:01:27.039
ultimately. And, you know, just one other area

01:01:27.039 --> 01:01:31.650
where we need effective cybersecurity. I don't

01:01:31.650 --> 01:01:33.409
understand, though. I thought computers never

01:01:33.409 --> 01:01:36.889
get distracted. They never make mistakes. You

01:01:36.889 --> 01:01:40.710
know, it's a computer. It can't be wrong. You

01:01:40.710 --> 01:01:44.409
keep on believing that, Fred. So this is A, predictable,

01:01:44.570 --> 01:01:47.730
and B, there's a special case I wonder about.

01:01:49.030 --> 01:01:51.849
Years ago, years ago, there was a little box

01:01:51.849 --> 01:01:54.429
that would enforce auto payments. So if you were

01:01:54.429 --> 01:01:56.550
a bad credit risk, they put a box in your car.

01:01:57.199 --> 01:01:59.400
And that you would have to basically feed it

01:01:59.400 --> 01:02:01.519
quarters, except you would pay your bill. And

01:02:01.519 --> 01:02:05.139
then the car dealer that sold it to you would

01:02:05.139 --> 01:02:07.159
send out a code turning your car back on for

01:02:07.159 --> 01:02:09.559
another week. You know, it wasn't rental. It

01:02:09.559 --> 01:02:12.340
was just keeping you on a short leash for car

01:02:12.340 --> 01:02:15.719
payments. And there was a mess up and all the

01:02:15.719 --> 01:02:18.800
cars bricked, right? So this kind of thing is

01:02:18.800 --> 01:02:21.739
inevitable. But the other one is if it times

01:02:21.739 --> 01:02:25.070
out why you're driving. Forget about the cyber

01:02:25.070 --> 01:02:27.289
attack. Just normal design. If it times out while

01:02:27.289 --> 01:02:30.090
you're driving, does it lock the transmission

01:02:30.090 --> 01:02:34.010
on the highway? Yeah. And again, there's a precedent

01:02:34.010 --> 01:02:37.130
for that. There's several aircraft, more than

01:02:37.130 --> 01:02:39.590
one aircraft, where if you leave the engine running

01:02:39.590 --> 01:02:41.510
too long, the engine shuts down, even if it's

01:02:41.510 --> 01:02:43.429
in flight, because there's a timer that goes

01:02:43.429 --> 01:02:45.429
over. In one of them, it's only like 30 days

01:02:45.429 --> 01:02:48.409
or something. What? You have to reboot. There's

01:02:48.409 --> 01:02:50.090
one aircraft where you have to reboot the jet

01:02:50.090 --> 01:02:52.030
engines every 30 days or else they shut down

01:02:52.030 --> 01:02:55.380
in flight. Yeah, it's special. And so as soon

01:02:55.380 --> 01:02:57.559
as I hear anyone that there's a timeout, I ask

01:02:57.559 --> 01:02:59.480
what happens if the timeout hits while you're

01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:03.260
mid -mission because this is very foreseeable.

01:03:03.800 --> 01:03:07.400
What airline is this? This is like all of them.

01:03:09.039 --> 01:03:10.840
Airbuses have this problem. Boeing's had this

01:03:10.840 --> 01:03:12.579
problem with different things. But it all amounts,

01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:15.980
there's some 32 -bit counter that when it runs

01:03:15.980 --> 01:03:19.570
out of bits, it rolls over in the engine. stops

01:03:19.570 --> 01:03:22.449
working. And the solution is to reboot the engine

01:03:22.449 --> 01:03:25.849
every couple of weeks. Oh my God. Oh, well, yeah.

01:03:26.369 --> 01:03:28.230
There's people who don't like flying with me.

01:03:28.269 --> 01:03:31.090
There's a reason it turns out. I know too many

01:03:31.090 --> 01:03:34.090
stories. How do you fly? That's a better question.

01:03:34.409 --> 01:03:38.590
I fly frequently because I have confidence that

01:03:38.590 --> 01:03:40.610
the people know what they're doing as long as

01:03:40.610 --> 01:03:43.510
they're adequately staffed. All right, let's

01:03:43.510 --> 01:03:46.989
jump into recalls as I cancel my upcoming flights.

01:03:47.530 --> 01:03:52.909
First up, Hyundai 61093 vehicles, the 2026 Palisade

01:03:52.909 --> 01:03:56.730
Hybrid, the regular Palisade, the second and

01:03:56.730 --> 01:03:59.150
third row power seat assemblies equipped in the

01:03:59.150 --> 01:04:01.369
subject vehicles may not respond to contact with

01:04:01.369 --> 01:04:04.250
an occupant or object as intended during activation

01:04:04.250 --> 01:04:06.590
of certain powered seat functions, including

01:04:06.590 --> 01:04:09.309
the automatic power folding function and the

01:04:09.309 --> 01:04:12.250
one touch tilt and slide feature of the second

01:04:12.250 --> 01:04:17.489
row power seat assembly. So this. This happened

01:04:17.489 --> 01:04:22.449
because there was a fatality recently in March

01:04:22.449 --> 01:04:26.070
in one of the Hyundai Palisade vehicles. There's

01:04:26.070 --> 01:04:29.929
also a Kia recall. It's much smaller on their

01:04:29.929 --> 01:04:33.750
Telluride. And it's these kind of elite trims.

01:04:33.750 --> 01:04:36.570
It's not the base models that have they have

01:04:36.570 --> 01:04:40.400
a lot of power. controls for their seats. And

01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:43.000
one of these controls, essentially what's going

01:04:43.000 --> 01:04:45.980
on here is it's not sensitive enough to objects

01:04:45.980 --> 01:04:48.980
or people that are in those seats. And when you

01:04:48.980 --> 01:04:52.539
push the button to fold it down, it doesn't reverse

01:04:52.539 --> 01:04:57.519
as it should. There is no federal regulation

01:04:57.519 --> 01:05:02.239
on this subject. Windows, power windows are required

01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:06.780
in many circumstances to reverse. But despite

01:05:07.400 --> 01:05:09.739
Pushing somewhat for this over the years for

01:05:09.739 --> 01:05:11.699
all power accessories and vehicles, that would

01:05:11.699 --> 01:05:15.139
include power doors, you know, the power lift

01:05:15.139 --> 01:05:18.280
gate in the back, the power seats as well, because

01:05:18.280 --> 01:05:19.920
this is the first time we've seen an incident

01:05:19.920 --> 01:05:22.780
involving power seats injuring or killing someone.

01:05:23.340 --> 01:05:26.219
There are no federal standards around these products

01:05:26.219 --> 01:05:29.360
that require them to auto reverse. set minimum

01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:32.000
safety standards to ensure that the systems can

01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:34.619
do so. And we think that would have made a difference

01:05:34.619 --> 01:05:38.800
in this case. Hyundai has got a temporary fix

01:05:38.800 --> 01:05:42.019
that they're putting out over the air that these

01:05:42.019 --> 01:05:44.800
owners can go to dealers to get that increases

01:05:44.800 --> 01:05:48.340
the sensitivity of the anti -reverse software.

01:05:48.719 --> 01:05:53.039
And there's a final fix coming ultimately as

01:05:53.039 --> 01:05:57.150
soon as they... figure out the actual root cause

01:05:57.150 --> 01:05:59.010
here. They're still doing that and working to

01:05:59.010 --> 01:06:01.429
develop their remedy. Oh, please get that fixed,

01:06:01.510 --> 01:06:05.409
people. As Michael said, Kia also, same recall,

01:06:05.610 --> 01:06:10.289
568 vehicles, the 2027 Telluride Hybrid. And

01:06:10.289 --> 01:06:14.210
that is the exact same issue, right? Yep. Okay.

01:06:14.849 --> 01:06:21.710
Then, oh, a rare, rare entrant, Ford. 254 ,640

01:06:21.710 --> 01:06:25.530
vehicles, the 2022 to 2025. Lincoln Navigator,

01:06:25.630 --> 01:06:33.409
the 24 -25 Nautilus, the 25 Aviator. Unexpected

01:06:33.409 --> 01:06:36.949
and repeated resets of the image processing module.

01:06:38.250 --> 01:06:42.150
Whatever. Rearview camera bullshit. Come on.

01:06:42.730 --> 01:06:44.590
You just put this one here on purpose because

01:06:44.590 --> 01:06:46.429
Phil's on the show and he'll tell me how complicated

01:06:46.429 --> 01:06:49.409
this stuff is. I get it. I get it. Well, I left

01:06:49.409 --> 01:06:52.809
out a Toyota one that was a same problem, but

01:06:52.809 --> 01:06:54.570
you know, we see one of these virtually every

01:06:54.570 --> 01:06:57.690
week. So this is just, I've got to jump in. I

01:06:57.690 --> 01:07:00.150
got a letter in the mail. My car has a recall.

01:07:00.590 --> 01:07:07.469
It was a rear view camera. Yes. Bravo. Although

01:07:07.469 --> 01:07:09.769
it isn't the rear view camera. It's the head

01:07:09.769 --> 01:07:12.750
unit. It's not the camera this time. The old

01:07:12.750 --> 01:07:14.929
car actually had problems with the camera and

01:07:14.929 --> 01:07:16.630
the wiring and all that. This one's the head

01:07:16.630 --> 01:07:19.710
unit. It takes a long time to start up. It's

01:07:19.710 --> 01:07:22.349
like, yeah, I knew that. I'm glad. Maybe this

01:07:22.349 --> 01:07:24.050
time the software fix will fix it. We're going

01:07:24.050 --> 01:07:27.010
to find out. Actually, after this show, this

01:07:27.010 --> 01:07:28.389
afternoon, I'm going to go down and see if the

01:07:28.389 --> 01:07:30.010
over -the -air update really works because it

01:07:30.010 --> 01:07:33.070
came out today. We're going to find out. I know

01:07:33.070 --> 01:07:35.539
this. Not only did I get the letter, but I went

01:07:35.539 --> 01:07:37.519
to the NHTSA website, put in my VIN, which I

01:07:37.519 --> 01:07:40.059
do once every couple months. And sure enough,

01:07:40.119 --> 01:07:42.179
the recall came up as active. So it's the real

01:07:42.179 --> 01:07:45.500
deal. Yeah. Not some hacker trying to trick me

01:07:45.500 --> 01:07:48.519
in by sending me a fake mail. Like, we'll get

01:07:48.519 --> 01:07:50.159
him. We'll get him with that rear view camera.

01:07:50.659 --> 01:07:56.099
All right. So, yeah. That's true. Oh, you know

01:07:56.099 --> 01:07:58.760
what? We got. Why not? Let's do one more. It

01:07:58.760 --> 01:08:02.159
is not a recall. It is an investigation. And

01:08:02.159 --> 01:08:03.940
it's an investigation of a company called Tesla.

01:08:04.300 --> 01:08:08.679
So Tesla's FSD is being investigated because

01:08:08.679 --> 01:08:14.539
it's no good. Yeah, this is the older investigation.

01:08:14.980 --> 01:08:17.899
You know, there's a newer one where they're failing

01:08:17.899 --> 01:08:24.689
to stop for stoplights, failure to. cars, failure

01:08:24.689 --> 01:08:27.050
to follow traffic laws, essentially. But this

01:08:27.050 --> 01:08:30.010
was the first FSD investigation that was opened

01:08:30.010 --> 01:08:35.130
in 2024 that involves the system not being able

01:08:35.130 --> 01:08:39.670
to detect when the environment and the roadway

01:08:39.670 --> 01:08:43.449
it's operating in, you know, is reduced the visibility

01:08:43.449 --> 01:08:46.670
and the cameras on the Tesla can't quite detect

01:08:46.670 --> 01:08:49.890
everything. This is basically a failure of full

01:08:49.890 --> 01:08:54.479
self -driving. to detect when it's coming into

01:08:54.479 --> 01:08:59.960
a zone or weather or whatever that it can't operate

01:08:59.960 --> 01:09:02.899
in safely and warning the driver that the driver

01:09:02.899 --> 01:09:05.260
has to take over the complete control of the

01:09:05.260 --> 01:09:08.140
vehicle and that sort of thing. At this point,

01:09:08.180 --> 01:09:12.159
it looks like NHTSA is trying, usually at this

01:09:12.159 --> 01:09:14.399
state where they move to an engineering analysis

01:09:14.399 --> 01:09:18.319
and upgrade the... preliminary evaluation, they

01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:20.800
have decided that there's probably a need for

01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:23.979
a recall. That's just how things typically operate.

01:09:24.060 --> 01:09:25.619
We don't have any information that that's what's

01:09:25.619 --> 01:09:30.960
going on here. But it is interesting for a lot

01:09:30.960 --> 01:09:35.659
of reasons, particularly that this is something

01:09:35.659 --> 01:09:39.800
that we've long pushed back on Tesla about because

01:09:39.800 --> 01:09:43.369
there is just... no evidence that these camera

01:09:43.369 --> 01:09:46.050
only systems, particularly Tesla's, can operate

01:09:46.050 --> 01:09:49.010
safely in a lot of weather environments that

01:09:49.010 --> 01:09:52.810
challenge visibility. And so, you know, while

01:09:52.810 --> 01:09:55.449
this ultimately, you know, it could still be.

01:09:56.740 --> 01:09:59.539
Depending on how Tesla fights a recall here,

01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:02.380
you know, five to 10 years before we might see

01:10:02.380 --> 01:10:04.979
something actually happen here, you know, and

01:10:04.979 --> 01:10:07.239
in the meantime, we have politics interceding

01:10:07.239 --> 01:10:09.920
because NHTSA has to, you know, the administrator

01:10:09.920 --> 01:10:12.539
in consultation with the secretary of transportation

01:10:12.539 --> 01:10:15.300
are going to have a role to play here. And, you

01:10:15.300 --> 01:10:17.800
know, they they're going to have to talk to Elon

01:10:17.800 --> 01:10:20.479
and negotiate what happens with the recall. We

01:10:20.479 --> 01:10:22.920
are on the lookout for another questionable recall

01:10:22.920 --> 01:10:26.079
fix here that's cheap for Tesla, allowing them.

01:10:26.119 --> 01:10:27.979
It's a claim they did something, but in fact,

01:10:27.979 --> 01:10:30.119
not really doing a whole lot for safety on our

01:10:30.119 --> 01:10:33.079
roads. But we are very interested in this investigation

01:10:33.079 --> 01:10:35.640
and will continue to update all of our listeners

01:10:35.640 --> 01:10:39.600
as it progresses. Wonderful. If I can add to

01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:41.819
that. So let me give you an example. Let's say

01:10:41.819 --> 01:10:43.800
it has trouble in fog, which probably is one

01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:46.239
of the things. Fog and mist, right? You can say,

01:10:46.300 --> 01:10:49.560
well, don't drive it when it's foggy. Well, how

01:10:49.560 --> 01:10:55.289
foggy is foggy? 400 meter haze fog or 100 meters

01:10:55.289 --> 01:10:59.130
or 50 meters or 10 meters. And by the way, how

01:10:59.130 --> 01:11:02.529
many drivers are trained to estimate how far

01:11:02.529 --> 01:11:04.670
they can see in the fog? And it probably depends

01:11:04.670 --> 01:11:07.869
on front lit, back lit, day, night. You know,

01:11:07.890 --> 01:11:10.489
how is a driver supposed to know when it's too

01:11:10.489 --> 01:11:13.210
foggy if the car doesn't tell him? It's completely

01:11:13.210 --> 01:11:15.989
unrealistic. And what about smoke? Well, it's

01:11:15.989 --> 01:11:18.649
smoke and smog. And if it's a low -lying cloud,

01:11:18.750 --> 01:11:22.390
is that fog or is that a cloud? And so trying

01:11:22.390 --> 01:11:26.409
to pin down an engineering spec and have a normal

01:11:26.409 --> 01:11:29.470
person, ordinary person, implement an engineering

01:11:29.470 --> 01:11:31.649
judgment that an engineer would require specialized

01:11:31.649 --> 01:11:35.020
equipment to measure, that's not happening. So

01:11:35.020 --> 01:11:38.260
for all these vehicles, it has to self -enforce

01:11:38.260 --> 01:11:41.279
the environmental limits because it's easy to

01:11:41.279 --> 01:11:44.020
say, well, there have to be good road lines or

01:11:44.020 --> 01:11:46.979
it can't be foggy. It has to be day. And all

01:11:46.979 --> 01:11:48.939
these things have these shades of gray, even

01:11:48.939 --> 01:11:50.840
day -night. Well, what about twilight now? Is

01:11:50.840 --> 01:11:53.020
it nautical twilight or civil twilight or astronomical

01:11:53.020 --> 01:11:55.659
twilight? What do you mean by twilight even,

01:11:55.739 --> 01:11:59.109
right? All these things, there's no... way for

01:11:59.109 --> 01:12:01.529
a normal human to know exactly where the cutoff

01:12:01.529 --> 01:12:04.069
is. And the one little bit over the cutoff, all

01:12:04.069 --> 01:12:05.590
of a sudden it's their fault and it's unreasonable

01:12:05.590 --> 01:12:08.289
to expect them to know that. So these systems,

01:12:08.329 --> 01:12:12.109
to be safe, really have to police and enforce

01:12:12.109 --> 01:12:14.149
their own limits. There's really no other way

01:12:14.149 --> 01:12:18.210
to do it. Agreed. Maybe NHTSA or someone can

01:12:18.210 --> 01:12:20.590
say, hey, these are the definitions of what we

01:12:20.590 --> 01:12:24.630
mean by too foggy. Well, I think it's more, you

01:12:24.630 --> 01:12:28.420
said too foggy, good for you. I don't care what

01:12:28.420 --> 01:12:31.060
you tell the driver. If they press the go button,

01:12:31.100 --> 01:12:33.020
it goes. It's on you. It's not on them because

01:12:33.020 --> 01:12:35.279
how are they supposed to know that it was 49

01:12:35.279 --> 01:12:38.180
meter visibility, not meter visibility? How in

01:12:38.180 --> 01:12:39.359
the world were they going to know that, right?

01:12:39.960 --> 01:12:41.699
It's the computer driver, man. It wasn't me.

01:12:42.039 --> 01:12:45.439
It was the computer. Pull that card out. Put

01:12:45.439 --> 01:12:47.420
it in the jail cell. Everything's fixed. Good

01:12:47.420 --> 01:12:49.579
to go. Only if you live in Oklahoma. In other

01:12:49.579 --> 01:12:52.180
places, it's more complicated. All right. Moving

01:12:52.180 --> 01:12:54.680
to Oklahoma, folks. And with that, that's our

01:12:54.680 --> 01:12:57.319
show. Thank you so much to Phil Kopman for coming

01:12:57.319 --> 01:13:00.979
by again. And we'll be back next week. Bye -bye.

01:13:01.420 --> 01:13:03.739
Thank you, Phil. Bye, everyone. Bye -bye. For

01:13:03.739 --> 01:13:07.720
more information, visit www .autosafety .org.