WEBVTT

00:00:01.960 --> 00:00:05.559
You're listening to There Auto Be A Law, the

00:00:05.559 --> 00:00:08.240
Center for Auto Safety podcast with Executive

00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:11.720
Director Michael Brooks, Chief Engineer Fred

00:00:11.720 --> 00:00:15.640
Perkins, and hosted by me, Anthony Cimino. For

00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:18.300
over 50 years, the Center for Auto Safety has

00:00:18.300 --> 00:00:24.660
worked to make cars safer. Hey listeners, today

00:00:24.660 --> 00:00:29.719
is Wednesday, March 18th, 2026. Still don't have

00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:32.259
a flying car. Ooh, that should be my gaslight,

00:00:32.340 --> 00:00:35.479
my childhood. Nope, that's not how we're going

00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:37.460
to start things. We're going to start things

00:00:37.460 --> 00:00:42.259
by finding my notes. So this is surprising. This

00:00:42.259 --> 00:00:44.259
is out of AAA Newsroom. We'll start off with

00:00:44.259 --> 00:00:47.060
this. I'm going to quote from an article we've

00:00:47.060 --> 00:00:49.579
been linking to. New research from the AAA Foundation

00:00:49.579 --> 00:00:51.920
for Traffic Safety published today finds that

00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:57.299
15 % of all police reported crashes in 2023 involved

00:00:57.299 --> 00:01:00.939
the driver who fled the scene. The highest percentage

00:01:00.939 --> 00:01:06.219
recorded in any recent year. Is this just a declining

00:01:06.219 --> 00:01:10.400
moral attitude of the American public? Is this

00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:13.260
the new math? Is this school systems? No, really,

00:01:13.379 --> 00:01:19.239
why is this happening? We don't know. This is

00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:22.280
horrible. That becomes the bigger crime, doesn't

00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.200
it? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of factors here.

00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:28.640
Obviously, I think a lot of the upturn in...

00:01:29.019 --> 00:01:32.280
you know, crashes generally in the last few years

00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:34.799
have kind of been placed on the pandemic and

00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:38.400
some of the driving behaviors that seem to grow

00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:41.400
around then aggressive driving, speeding and,

00:01:41.400 --> 00:01:44.060
you know, drunk driving all seem to increase

00:01:44.060 --> 00:01:48.420
during that period. But this is kind of like,

00:01:48.500 --> 00:01:52.370
you know, not necessarily why. The crash is happening,

00:01:52.469 --> 00:01:55.989
but why people are leaving the scene, and there

00:01:55.989 --> 00:01:58.349
seem to be a number of factors there, you know,

00:01:58.349 --> 00:02:02.310
one of which is one I think we have all noticed

00:02:02.310 --> 00:02:04.650
would be that, you know, a potentially drunk

00:02:04.650 --> 00:02:10.569
or driver using drugs hits another car or a pedestrian

00:02:10.569 --> 00:02:12.750
flees because they don't want to get caught.

00:02:13.689 --> 00:02:18.460
Similarly, you know, unlicensed drivers. don't

00:02:18.460 --> 00:02:21.460
want to be cited for driving on a suspended license

00:02:21.460 --> 00:02:23.800
or without a license and would leave the scene

00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:27.400
to avoid those consequences. Also, I think, you

00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:31.860
know, something that plays a role here are the

00:02:31.860 --> 00:02:36.500
dramatic number of stolen vehicles, the increase

00:02:36.500 --> 00:02:40.000
in vehicle thefts over the past few years, I

00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:41.900
think would contribute to this somewhat since,

00:02:41.979 --> 00:02:45.759
you know. People driving stolen cars also, after

00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:49.099
a collision, don't want to be accountable and

00:02:49.099 --> 00:02:52.120
will flee the scene as well. So there are a lot

00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:57.240
of different reasons why this happened, but it

00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:00.199
seems, you know, for the most part, it is, you

00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:03.020
know, people who want to evade accountability

00:03:03.020 --> 00:03:08.280
for the consequences of their own behavior. Ironic

00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:11.300
loudism. There's a lot of louts out there now.

00:03:12.060 --> 00:03:14.479
And I think there's a direct correlation, actually,

00:03:14.500 --> 00:03:17.800
with the number of empty nip bottles that we

00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:21.639
find by the side of the road now. You know, it's

00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:27.180
a real plague of ignorance and just loudism.

00:03:27.979 --> 00:03:30.800
Sorry, I don't think there's any one cause, but

00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:34.960
there's only one result, which is just louts,

00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:37.340
people who don't give a shit about other people.

00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:41.199
Trying their best to evade responsibility. If

00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:44.259
you had Fred using an arcane word on your bingo

00:03:44.259 --> 00:03:50.319
card, please mark it off. Laut. Lautism. Well,

00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:52.780
it's a good, perfectly good word. It's a great

00:03:52.780 --> 00:03:55.639
word. It's just not used enough. It's like grocery.

00:03:56.479 --> 00:03:59.039
Oh, it's different. I think it's important. How

00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:02.360
do you combat lauts, right? I mean, that's something

00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:05.490
we need to figure out here. You know, an area

00:04:05.490 --> 00:04:08.610
that we obviously want to put a stop to and hold

00:04:08.610 --> 00:04:13.490
bad drivers, drunk drivers, drunk drivers, unlicensed

00:04:13.490 --> 00:04:16.810
drivers accountable for breaking the law. How

00:04:16.810 --> 00:04:21.550
do you do that? I don't think you can fight it

00:04:21.550 --> 00:04:23.209
unless you're fighting the whole bro culture

00:04:23.209 --> 00:04:26.610
thing. I think it's more than bro culture. I

00:04:26.610 --> 00:04:29.129
think it's not just as narrow as that. But I

00:04:29.129 --> 00:04:31.170
imagine with a lot of and obviously in urban

00:04:31.170 --> 00:04:33.920
areas, you have got. cameras everywhere so license

00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:37.579
plates are recorded all over the place uh i wish

00:04:37.579 --> 00:04:39.480
this kind of followed up and say how many of

00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:41.660
these people that fled the scene were eventually

00:04:41.660 --> 00:04:45.560
caught because because i imagine again it's like

00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:48.060
the cover -up is worse than the crime like leaving

00:04:48.060 --> 00:04:51.720
fleeing an accident is a much greater issue than

00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:53.360
causing an accident because most times causing

00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:56.259
an accident it's not a crime it's a it's an accident

00:04:56.259 --> 00:04:58.600
that's what it is but you leave that accident

00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:02.319
now you're a criminal right I didn't go to law

00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:05.879
school. Yeah. No, I mean, yes. I mean, you are

00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:08.439
leaving the scene of an accident and that is

00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:11.339
a citable offense in every state. So there's

00:05:11.339 --> 00:05:14.379
no question about that. I mean, I'm interested

00:05:14.379 --> 00:05:16.399
in the countermeasures that are proposed here.

00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:19.439
Obviously, one of them is going to be, you know,

00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:21.860
cameras with, you know, automated license plate

00:05:21.860 --> 00:05:23.660
readers. You know, there's some problematic.

00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:28.279
camera systems there with their lack of cybersecurity

00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:32.459
might be violating our privacy. Flock cameras

00:05:32.459 --> 00:05:35.319
certainly come to mind there. And so there's

00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:37.120
a little hesitance to deploy those everywhere.

00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:39.139
I know there are a lot of communities around

00:05:39.139 --> 00:05:42.560
the United States who are pushing back on the

00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:46.100
installation of those types of cameras. But there

00:05:46.100 --> 00:05:49.939
are also a lot of other. companies that that

00:05:49.939 --> 00:05:52.180
make things like the automated license plate

00:05:52.180 --> 00:05:55.180
readers you'll see mounted on police cars right

00:05:55.180 --> 00:05:58.019
um that that you know there there are a lot of

00:05:58.019 --> 00:06:00.319
you know but i mean i guess the difference there

00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:02.720
obviously if a police car is on the scene of

00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:06.220
a hit and run and able to detect the plate you

00:06:06.220 --> 00:06:08.180
know there's a much better chance of catching

00:06:08.180 --> 00:06:09.819
the driver there were some other interesting

00:06:09.819 --> 00:06:12.100
there's something i'd never really thought of

00:06:12.100 --> 00:06:14.629
was including this article which is that The

00:06:14.629 --> 00:06:18.009
automated crash notification feature that we've

00:06:18.009 --> 00:06:20.550
always been very supportive of, which essentially

00:06:20.550 --> 00:06:26.509
if a vehicle crashes and there is a person who

00:06:26.509 --> 00:06:28.649
is unresponsive, unable to exit the vehicle,

00:06:28.829 --> 00:06:32.930
unable to call the police, the vehicle itself

00:06:32.930 --> 00:06:36.449
essentially calls 911 and alerts emergency authorities

00:06:36.449 --> 00:06:38.569
to the crash. I mean, there are even more advanced

00:06:38.569 --> 00:06:41.949
systems there where they can give emergency personnel.

00:06:42.910 --> 00:06:45.870
an insight into the crash forces and the type

00:06:45.870 --> 00:06:47.750
of crashes there so that they can be prepared

00:06:47.750 --> 00:06:50.350
to better assist victims when they get on scene.

00:06:50.649 --> 00:06:54.889
But the other side of that system is that if

00:06:54.889 --> 00:06:58.389
it's automatically reporting any significant

00:06:58.389 --> 00:07:01.189
crash that occurs in the vehicle, then it is

00:07:01.189 --> 00:07:05.170
in some ways kind of the tattletale on these.

00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:08.560
folks who are fleeing the scene, you know, particularly

00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:12.040
if it's their vehicle that is reporting the crash

00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:15.100
and then they leave the scene. You know, the

00:07:15.100 --> 00:07:17.220
law enforcement would have a connection there

00:07:17.220 --> 00:07:19.199
that that would allow them to figure out who

00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:22.399
it was and track them down. So this is not a

00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:25.139
smart ass question. And I know that's hard for

00:07:25.139 --> 00:07:28.199
listeners to understand. But but what is is actual

00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:31.000
the downside to that happening? Is it just the

00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:34.720
argument that. um my car's monitoring in me and

00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:37.839
watching me and reporting on me is that the or

00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:39.079
is there something else it's the same nonsense

00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:41.560
yeah it's kind of the same nonsense we see in

00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:44.000
the area of alcohol impairment detection and

00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:48.579
in you know active um intelligent speed assistance

00:07:48.579 --> 00:07:54.019
you know There's a subset of our population that

00:07:54.019 --> 00:07:57.060
wants to push back on any type of technology

00:07:57.060 --> 00:08:00.839
in and outside of vehicles that can, you know,

00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:04.120
track bad actors and make sure that they're held

00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:08.019
accountable. You know, we talked about it last

00:08:08.019 --> 00:08:10.540
week in the context of someone claiming that,

00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:14.360
I believe it was the alcohol detection systems

00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:18.699
were somehow. you know, federal surveillance

00:08:18.699 --> 00:08:21.899
tools, you know, the conspiracy theories around

00:08:21.899 --> 00:08:24.899
this stuff have gone a little bit mad. I mean,

00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.420
I think we need to kind of take a step back and

00:08:28.420 --> 00:08:30.740
look at the problems we're addressing here, you

00:08:30.740 --> 00:08:34.159
know, which involve. killing thousands of people

00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:35.980
and injuring, you know, hundreds of thousands,

00:08:36.100 --> 00:08:39.620
possibly millions of human beings every year.

00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:42.279
And we have technologies that are relatively

00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:45.980
simple and effective and cheap enough to install

00:08:45.980 --> 00:08:48.860
in vehicles without incredibly raising the price

00:08:48.860 --> 00:08:51.279
of cars. Why aren't we going ahead and doing

00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:55.120
that and ignoring kind of this conspiratorial

00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:57.440
nonsense that these are somehow, you know, surveillance

00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:02.200
systems? It's, you know, I really think that

00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:05.399
argument is stymieing. And I may even get to

00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:07.220
this a little more in the Gaslight this week

00:09:07.220 --> 00:09:11.519
involving NHTSA and alcohol detection. It's stymieing

00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:14.700
progress in this area and preventing, you know,

00:09:14.700 --> 00:09:18.480
technology from coming into cars that can significantly

00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.820
cut the amount of fatal and injurious and just

00:09:22.820 --> 00:09:26.120
overall traffic accidents every year or crashes

00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:30.120
every year. So I'm curious for listeners of if

00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:32.659
any of you are on that spectrum of saying I don't

00:09:32.659 --> 00:09:35.659
want to be tracked and whatnot. If any of you

00:09:35.659 --> 00:09:37.519
are using Google Maps, Apple Maps, some sort

00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.500
of navigation system in your car or if you have

00:09:41.500 --> 00:09:44.600
a mobile phone. I'm curious and I'm not being

00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:46.940
a smartass about this because actually. So a

00:09:46.940 --> 00:09:48.519
couple of weeks ago, my wife and I are driving

00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:50.700
somewhere and I didn't turn on directions to

00:09:50.700 --> 00:09:52.519
where we were going because it's a route we normally

00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:54.659
go all the time. And she's like, why don't you

00:09:54.659 --> 00:09:57.190
have this turned on? And I'm like. Two reasons.

00:09:57.309 --> 00:09:58.789
One, I don't need it. I know where I'm going

00:09:58.789 --> 00:10:02.070
to. I want to feel like a man again. OK, I know

00:10:02.070 --> 00:10:04.929
how to drive like I don't need this thing babysitting

00:10:04.929 --> 00:10:08.450
me. But then she made a good point saying, I

00:10:08.450 --> 00:10:10.389
leave it on. I know where I'm going. I leave

00:10:10.389 --> 00:10:12.610
it on in case there's traffic and it can route

00:10:12.610 --> 00:10:14.809
me around it. And I was like, yeah, warning head.

00:10:14.850 --> 00:10:17.029
I was like, yeah, that doesn't make me feel like

00:10:17.029 --> 00:10:20.070
a man. A man sits in traffic. Yeah. And we get

00:10:20.070 --> 00:10:22.029
complaining and we yell. How do you think I get

00:10:22.029 --> 00:10:23.450
that spittle on the inside of the windshield?

00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.399
Yeah, I mean, what's interesting to me is that

00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:29.840
there's so much pushback against the government

00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:31.960
stepping in and saying we need to save a lot

00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:34.860
of lives by putting this technology in cars when

00:10:34.860 --> 00:10:38.220
the same people pushing back about on that are

00:10:38.220 --> 00:10:43.539
routinely using. apps or other technology or

00:10:43.539 --> 00:10:46.399
have technology already installed in their car

00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:50.240
that is tracking them and essentially selling

00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:53.460
their data to other corporate entities and surveilling

00:10:53.460 --> 00:10:57.679
them. There's not a whole lot of outcry about

00:10:57.679 --> 00:11:00.440
that from the same camp that pushes back on any

00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:03.159
efforts by the government to save lives in the

00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:05.779
same manner. Crazy. But I'm going to give Michael,

00:11:05.980 --> 00:11:07.860
I'm going to give you the Segway Award of the

00:11:07.860 --> 00:11:10.019
Week because you mentioned alcohol detection.

00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:13.100
And that is our next story. We're going to talk

00:11:13.100 --> 00:11:17.919
about how NHTSA is. This is a there's a report

00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:20.500
from NHTSA itself. They got a little the report

00:11:20.500 --> 00:11:23.340
to Congress, advanced impaired driving prevention

00:11:23.340 --> 00:11:26.600
technology. I'm going to be honest, I tried getting

00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:28.980
through it and my brain stumped. But thankfully,

00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:30.980
there's an article from Road and Track titled,

00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:33.759
Federal Regulators Tell Congress Advanced Impaired

00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:36.279
Driving Detection Technology Isn't Ready Yet.

00:11:36.500 --> 00:11:40.240
And I'm going to quote from this. Quoting, Currently,

00:11:40.299 --> 00:11:42.639
detection technology around the legal limit continues

00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:44.919
to have an error rate that would be unacceptably

00:11:44.919 --> 00:11:47.860
high. While NHTSA has not made a final determination

00:11:47.860 --> 00:11:50.559
about the necessary levels of accuracy, even

00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:54.620
a 99 .9 % detection accuracy level could result

00:11:54.620 --> 00:11:56.440
in millions, the tens of millions of instances

00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:59.019
each year where the technology would incorrectly

00:11:59.019 --> 00:12:01.700
prevent or limit drivers from operating their

00:12:01.700 --> 00:12:07.860
vehicles. So that's an interesting takeaway because

00:12:07.860 --> 00:12:12.259
I don't think they're necessarily wrong here.

00:12:12.379 --> 00:12:14.960
And I'm not against, hold on, I know, this is

00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:17.240
interesting. That's what I'm dying to hear your

00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:20.440
feedback because this stuff has to, I think it

00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.090
has to work incredibly, incredibly well. Because

00:12:24.090 --> 00:12:25.830
because think of that ninety nine point nine

00:12:25.830 --> 00:12:29.009
percent. That's if it hits people. No, no. I

00:12:29.009 --> 00:12:31.230
want you to get to it. I'm dying to know. I want

00:12:31.230 --> 00:12:34.110
to know where I'm wrong because I'm thinking

00:12:34.110 --> 00:12:36.809
about it. You should know more just because we've

00:12:36.809 --> 00:12:38.690
already discussed this topic a number of times.

00:12:38.789 --> 00:12:42.429
I know, but I have brain damage. OK, each week

00:12:42.429 --> 00:12:46.389
I want you. I want you to think six sigma. That's

00:12:46.389 --> 00:12:48.250
the thing is ninety nine point nine is not enough.

00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.039
No, that's not. That's actually inaccurate. And

00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:55.419
that is where I'm falling on my gas. OK, well,

00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:58.179
so before you jump in. So my my thought of reading

00:12:58.179 --> 00:13:00.480
that ninety nine point nine. So maybe that is

00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:04.659
the gaslight. Is that OK? So that I agree. OK,

00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:08.279
take it away, Mr. So that's just positing ninety

00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:11.399
nine point nine percent detection accuracy level

00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:14.419
as though that is the state of technology. We

00:13:14.419 --> 00:13:18.120
know directly from the mouth of Mr. Strasberger,

00:13:18.220 --> 00:13:21.919
who runs the DADS program, that the DADS system

00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:25.879
reached six sigma accuracy. So that is not 99

00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:35.820
.9. That is 99 .99997, which is essentially three

00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:40.759
detection failures per million. So NHTSA is basically

00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:44.399
saying here, you know, there's 227 billion driving

00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.259
trips that take place annually. Yeah, a 99 .9

00:13:48.259 --> 00:13:51.620
% detection accuracy level is terrible, right?

00:13:51.740 --> 00:13:54.720
It's going to result in, you know, like they

00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:56.940
say, millions and tens of millions of instances

00:13:56.940 --> 00:13:59.320
each year where the technology would incorrectly

00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:01.500
prevent or limit drivers from operating their

00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:06.120
vehicles. The NHTSA is working with dads. The

00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:08.440
industry is working with dads and the dads folks

00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:11.419
are saying we've met six Sigma criterion, right?

00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:19.320
We are at 99 .9997. percent detection, which

00:14:19.320 --> 00:14:22.419
dramatically reduces that number. You're not

00:14:22.419 --> 00:14:24.799
talking about millions or tens of million instances

00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:27.419
per year where the technology would incorrectly

00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:29.480
prevent or limit drivers from operating their

00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:31.960
vehicles. And this is not even taking into account

00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:35.019
here the fact that you could use the technology

00:14:35.019 --> 00:14:38.759
multiple times in one instance where one might

00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:42.360
be a failure or you might detect alcohol in one

00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:45.299
run of the system. The next one. to check it

00:14:45.299 --> 00:14:47.639
might not, and the next one to check that might

00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:49.620
not, and that driver could be free to drive.

00:14:49.740 --> 00:14:51.919
So the way that the technology is implemented

00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:55.440
is also important here. NHTSA is essentially

00:14:55.440 --> 00:15:00.549
using a statistic that... It underrepresents

00:15:00.549 --> 00:15:03.549
the success that the DADS system has displayed.

00:15:04.190 --> 00:15:06.690
And NHTSA is saying, and I don't understand how

00:15:06.690 --> 00:15:08.769
they can say this, and this is where the gaslight

00:15:08.769 --> 00:15:11.429
really comes in. They say NHTSA is not aware

00:15:11.429 --> 00:15:14.769
of any technology that claims to achieve anywhere

00:15:14.769 --> 00:15:21.009
close to this level of accuracy in minimizing

00:15:21.009 --> 00:15:24.590
false positives and false negatives. And no such

00:15:24.590 --> 00:15:26.509
capabilities have been verified independently

00:15:26.509 --> 00:15:30.149
to date. I could say that NHTSA probably has

00:15:30.149 --> 00:15:32.289
an expended resources verifying independently

00:15:32.289 --> 00:15:35.950
the claims that are being made by the dad's folks.

00:15:36.110 --> 00:15:40.149
But the dad's folks made it very clear last fall

00:15:40.149 --> 00:15:43.070
that they had achieved a six sigma level of accuracy,

00:15:43.210 --> 00:15:45.929
which is far better than what NHTSA is citing

00:15:45.929 --> 00:15:49.210
here. For that, I'm giving, you know, NHTSA the

00:15:49.210 --> 00:15:50.809
gaslight of the week, because I think this is

00:15:50.809 --> 00:15:55.009
pretty clearly a political kind of whitewash.

00:15:55.659 --> 00:16:00.779
of the alcohol detection technology area to try

00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:03.399
to pretend that the technology is not there yet

00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:06.179
and we're just going to you know wash our hands

00:16:06.179 --> 00:16:09.879
of this for another few years um and not and

00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:12.600
not try to force this into vehicles which the

00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:15.659
auto industry is clearly not being very cooperative

00:16:15.659 --> 00:16:18.960
with. They haven't put these systems in e -cars

00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.120
so that NHTSA can actually test them and produce

00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:24.940
standards around them. And so NHTSA's hands are

00:16:24.940 --> 00:16:26.759
tied a little bit there because the industry

00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:29.139
is slow to adopt. But what NHTSA should be doing

00:16:29.139 --> 00:16:32.080
instead of making false statements about the

00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:34.299
level of accuracy of the current technology,

00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:38.340
they should be doing a better job to verify the

00:16:38.340 --> 00:16:40.460
claims made by the folks who are producing this

00:16:40.460 --> 00:16:44.090
technology and getting this conversation making

00:16:44.090 --> 00:16:46.330
this conversation a little broader and having

00:16:46.330 --> 00:16:49.769
this conversation with manufacturers to push

00:16:49.769 --> 00:16:52.590
this technology into vehicles and to start saving

00:16:52.590 --> 00:16:55.230
lives on the road as soon as possible versus

00:16:55.230 --> 00:16:57.549
kicking the can down the road to let some other

00:16:57.549 --> 00:17:00.509
administration make that determination. Well,

00:17:00.529 --> 00:17:02.230
there's another level of bullshit involved in

00:17:02.230 --> 00:17:05.130
this argument. I'm reinforcing your gaslight,

00:17:05.269 --> 00:17:07.150
but I'm still going to be the winner, Anthony,

00:17:07.289 --> 00:17:10.789
just so you know. Fred is waving his fist at

00:17:10.789 --> 00:17:13.980
me, threatening me to make sure he wins. There's

00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:15.839
no reason why it's got to be all one way or the

00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.720
other. For example, you could put dads in, and

00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:22.019
dads are always right, by the way. So just based

00:17:22.019 --> 00:17:24.759
on my experience. But anyway, you could put the

00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:28.420
dads into a car today, and instead of completely

00:17:28.420 --> 00:17:33.059
immobilizing the car as a transitional installation,

00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:37.900
you could merely have the car start honking a

00:17:37.900 --> 00:17:42.839
horn and blinking its lights when... it's detected

00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:46.200
that there's any alcohol present. This would

00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.619
be a great way of testing this whole false positive

00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:53.839
hypothesis to see if, in fact, it's unbearable.

00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:56.759
And it would give the police a chance to investigate

00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:00.779
something that is a likely hazardous situation.

00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:04.119
But there's no reason why it's got to be, you

00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:05.720
know, we're going to jump off the cliff or not.

00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:09.799
There are transitional approaches. That could

00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:14.640
allow earlier implementation of the technology

00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:18.680
without completely immobilizing the cars or taking

00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:22.279
a chance on immobilizing a whole city, as the

00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:29.579
alarmists would have you worry. So I think there's

00:18:29.579 --> 00:18:32.980
no reason not to do it today. There's a way you

00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:36.400
can manage the transition into the full capability.

00:18:37.529 --> 00:18:40.009
And at the same time, it would help encourage

00:18:40.009 --> 00:18:44.430
vehicle manufacturers to provide warning systems

00:18:44.430 --> 00:18:47.990
that allow other motorists and other road users

00:18:47.990 --> 00:18:53.549
to be alerted to and warned of hazardous behavior

00:18:53.549 --> 00:18:57.829
by an approaching vehicle. That alone would save

00:18:57.829 --> 00:18:59.950
a lot of lives. If you knew a drunk driver was

00:18:59.950 --> 00:19:02.490
coming, you'd get the hell out of the way. No

00:19:02.490 --> 00:19:05.509
reason why that couldn't be done today. I like

00:19:05.509 --> 00:19:08.289
it. But Fred, your idea about having it flash

00:19:08.289 --> 00:19:10.630
its lights and honk horns, that just becomes

00:19:10.630 --> 00:19:13.329
a party bus all of a sudden. That's the things

00:19:13.329 --> 00:19:15.509
people see that like, yeah, drunks over here.

00:19:15.569 --> 00:19:18.869
Let's go party. Well, it might happen, but, you

00:19:18.869 --> 00:19:20.509
know, there are police in the world, too. And

00:19:20.509 --> 00:19:24.250
hopefully they could do a better job if they

00:19:24.250 --> 00:19:27.390
had more information. So, Michael, the question

00:19:27.390 --> 00:19:29.710
I have is how quickly. Well, first of all, to

00:19:29.710 --> 00:19:33.650
refresh listeners minds, not my mind. What exactly

00:19:33.650 --> 00:19:38.559
does dad stand for? I'm always going to have

00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:41.759
to look this one up. Let's see. Never mind. I

00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.319
can jump in. Alcohol detection system for safety.

00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:48.079
Thank you. It's a mass spectrometer. So it samples

00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:51.380
the environment either through touch or through

00:19:51.380 --> 00:19:56.400
air and looks for the existence of alcohol in

00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:01.279
the vicinity. Okay. So I'm going to ask a series

00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:04.539
of dumb questions as the lightning round. How

00:20:04.539 --> 00:20:07.059
quickly you're saying so false positive. So maybe

00:20:07.059 --> 00:20:09.279
the first time I sit down, it gives me says alcohol

00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.539
detected. Then it does a scan again. No alcohol,

00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.720
no alcohol. Do we have any idea how quickly these

00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:18.000
scans happen? They work very quickly because

00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:20.940
they essentially have to, you know, consumers

00:20:20.940 --> 00:20:26.819
aren't going to accept a delay of five, 10 seconds

00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:30.750
getting into their cars and waiting for. this

00:20:30.750 --> 00:20:32.750
technology to kick in. So it works incredibly

00:20:32.750 --> 00:20:35.849
rapidly. Okay. And it has to. So I'm in the driver's

00:20:35.849 --> 00:20:39.009
seat, sober as can be, person next to me drunk

00:20:39.009 --> 00:20:41.210
as a skunk in the passenger seat. Is this going

00:20:41.210 --> 00:20:44.009
to be a problem? It shouldn't be. And they've

00:20:44.009 --> 00:20:46.650
tested that to make sure that it's, you know,

00:20:46.650 --> 00:20:49.470
it's going to detect less than one second. It's

00:20:49.470 --> 00:20:54.390
only going to detect the breath of the driver.

00:20:54.529 --> 00:20:56.869
And in the future, they're actually trying to

00:20:56.869 --> 00:21:03.039
produce a tissue spectros. was spectroscopy system,

00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:06.400
which basically. You know, you put your finger

00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:09.940
up to a light, an infrared light, and it's going

00:21:09.940 --> 00:21:13.980
to take a number of readings in quickly. And,

00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:16.839
you know, that would eliminate the potential

00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:20.160
for a passenger's breath to interfere. Although,

00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:22.940
you know, from what I've seen and from the, you

00:21:22.940 --> 00:21:25.259
know, I think Fred and I have both been to, you

00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:27.619
know, the auto show where we saw the dad's technology

00:21:27.619 --> 00:21:32.519
demoed. And, you know, they've always been. Pretty

00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:35.839
confident that the system is not going to confuse

00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:39.279
readings from a passenger or, you know, rear

00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:41.640
seat passengers or, you know, if you have a bus

00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:44.420
full of drunks in the back, you know, this is

00:21:44.420 --> 00:21:47.099
only going to detect the drivers, the driver's

00:21:47.099 --> 00:21:50.880
alcohol level. Last question. So I sit down again,

00:21:51.099 --> 00:21:53.640
stone sober, but I take out my hand sanitizer,

00:21:53.900 --> 00:21:56.440
wipe down on my hands, contains a lot of alcohol.

00:21:57.299 --> 00:22:00.859
Where am I at? I haven't read anything specific

00:22:00.859 --> 00:22:03.680
on that, but I've got to assume that there are,

00:22:03.740 --> 00:22:06.359
you know, first of all, if it's sniffing your

00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:09.740
breath versus your hands, I'm assuming it's,

00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:13.039
you know, I'm assuming that's been taken into

00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:16.279
account, particularly post -COVID when hand sanitizer

00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:19.460
really became a thing. Hey, people at Dad's,

00:22:19.460 --> 00:22:21.799
let me know. Write in. Contact at autosafety

00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:23.740
.org. And while you're there, you can click on

00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:25.640
the red donate button. That's right. We will

00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:28.819
take money from Dad's scan people. Right? Right?

00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:32.019
Yeah. Autosafety .org. Click on Donate. This

00:22:32.019 --> 00:22:34.720
section brought to you by Anheuser -Busch. If

00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:36.160
you're going to drive drunk, drink Budweiser.

00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:39.299
No, wait, no, don't ever. Don't do any of these

00:22:39.299 --> 00:22:44.059
things. Okay. Fred, are you ready for your gaslight,

00:22:44.099 --> 00:22:45.599
which you've threatened me that you've already

00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:49.859
won? Oh, sure. I'm going back to my friends at

00:22:49.859 --> 00:22:52.859
Waymo and New York Times. Boring. There's another

00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:56.480
article this week in New York Times that talks

00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:00.819
about people being trapped in cars. in way most

00:23:00.819 --> 00:23:04.519
of various types and it illustrates uh really

00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:08.839
the important fact that self -driving cars introduce

00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:13.240
a whole new set of hazards to anybody who's using

00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:17.099
them so the public perception is that humans

00:23:17.099 --> 00:23:19.359
are bad computers are good all we need to do

00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:21.779
is computerize everything and the world will

00:23:21.779 --> 00:23:25.000
be wonderful but the fact is that they introduce

00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:28.740
a whole new range of failure modes and hazards

00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:31.500
that are simply not present in human -driven

00:23:31.500 --> 00:23:34.339
cars. And this article is all about that. People

00:23:34.339 --> 00:23:39.799
assaulting other cars or Waymos in San Francisco,

00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:43.500
trapping people in them, defacing the cars. That's

00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:47.240
only one of the many different kinds of hazards

00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:49.960
uniquely associated with self -driving cars.

00:23:51.619 --> 00:23:57.980
But inside it, the reporter... states, I'm quoting

00:23:57.980 --> 00:24:00.920
here, Waymo frequently emphasizes its safety

00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:04.039
compared with human drivers. This data has shown

00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:07.079
a 90 % decrease in serious injury or worse crashes

00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:10.119
for its cars compared with the average human

00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:12.200
driver over the same distance in cities where

00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:15.400
it operates. A different 2023 study showed that

00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.039
self -driving cars were twice as likely as human

00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:19.839
drivers to be involved in rear -end collisions,

00:24:20.180 --> 00:24:23.160
which Waymo disputed with its own data. Close

00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:25.460
quote. So what's interesting is we're starting

00:24:25.460 --> 00:24:29.000
to see the urban myth of the safety of the Waymos

00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:32.140
deteriorate through the reporter apparently doing

00:24:32.140 --> 00:24:35.119
some homework, which is a good thing. But I also

00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:38.220
want to go back to the fundamental, which is

00:24:38.220 --> 00:24:43.039
that the studies quoted by Waymo or cited by

00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:47.900
Waymo in its analysis that says 90 % of fewer

00:24:47.900 --> 00:24:52.259
cars is actually wrong. It's faulty and it's

00:24:52.259 --> 00:24:55.220
not what those studies say at all. So the studies

00:24:55.220 --> 00:24:59.000
that this relies on are based on data from 2022.

00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:02.559
What year is it now, Anthony? Oh man, I didn't

00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:04.680
know there'd be a quiz. Don't ask Anthony. 2026.

00:25:04.900 --> 00:25:08.380
I got it. Yeah. Yeah. So how many versions of

00:25:08.380 --> 00:25:13.039
software has Waymo gone through since 2022? It's

00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:15.079
an ever evolving thing. We don't have release.

00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:17.259
No, we just, you know, we just go with the flow,

00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:20.390
man. All right, so the data they collected, 2022,

00:25:20.849 --> 00:25:24.950
was based on a very limited operating area. It

00:25:24.950 --> 00:25:28.069
was based on cars that were restricted to low

00:25:28.069 --> 00:25:33.369
speed. And it was based on software that is no

00:25:33.369 --> 00:25:35.690
longer being used in the vehicle. So there's

00:25:35.690 --> 00:25:41.509
no basis to believe the statement by Waymo that

00:25:41.509 --> 00:25:46.529
it's 90 % less than the study basis. But even

00:25:46.529 --> 00:25:50.539
going beyond that. The three studies I'm quoting

00:25:50.539 --> 00:25:54.779
here from the studies, the first one says, accidents

00:25:54.779 --> 00:25:57.819
involving advanced driving systems occur more

00:25:57.819 --> 00:25:59.960
frequently than human -driven vehicle accidents

00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:04.039
under dawn, dusk, or turning conditions, which

00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:07.680
is 5 .25 and 1 .98 times higher than the humans,

00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:11.920
respectively. That doesn't say it's 90 % less,

00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:16.539
does it? It says it's five times more. The next

00:26:16.539 --> 00:26:19.349
study says, The direction and significance of

00:26:19.349 --> 00:26:22.750
comparisons in the any property damage or injury

00:26:22.750 --> 00:26:26.390
outcome group are inconclusive due to difficulties

00:26:26.390 --> 00:26:29.410
in estimating a matching human benchmark. So

00:26:29.410 --> 00:26:31.430
that's the second study they cite. It basically

00:26:31.430 --> 00:26:35.309
says we don't know how to draw conclusions based

00:26:35.309 --> 00:26:39.170
on this. And then the third study they cite says

00:26:39.170 --> 00:26:43.309
that differences between human and vehicles ranging

00:26:43.309 --> 00:26:48.009
from 10 to 47 % higher in San Francisco. 12 to

00:26:48.009 --> 00:26:52.069
20 % higher in Maricopa and 7 % lower to 34 %

00:26:52.069 --> 00:26:55.210
higher in Los Angeles counties. This time of

00:26:55.210 --> 00:26:57.950
day adjustment in San Francisco, limited to this

00:26:57.950 --> 00:27:01.109
region due to data availability, resulted in

00:27:01.109 --> 00:27:05.329
adjusted crash rates 2 % lower to 16 % higher

00:27:05.329 --> 00:27:08.549
than adjusted and unadjusted rates, depending

00:27:08.549 --> 00:27:11.690
on the severity level, close quote. So the third

00:27:11.690 --> 00:27:14.910
study that they cite also doesn't say 90 % less.

00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:18.180
It says probably higher, but we can't really

00:27:18.180 --> 00:27:20.799
tell because there's such a wide range of variability

00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:27.460
depending on how you look at the data. So Waymo,

00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:31.920
out of whole cloth, made up a number that says

00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:36.720
we're 90 % better and propagated that number

00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:41.039
in their PR. By the way, nobody signed the report

00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:45.299
that Waymo published on its website. So who knows

00:27:45.299 --> 00:27:46.839
where it came from? That's a sign of quality.

00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:49.940
Yeah, there must be engineers cringing somewhere.

00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:55.279
And that was picked up, of course, without acknowledgement

00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:58.680
by New York Times that went, bypassed all the

00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:01.660
data, didn't bother to investigate the source.

00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:05.319
But the good news is now New York Times seems

00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:08.220
to be softening and is coming around to actually

00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:11.000
reading some of the reports and at least reading

00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:16.849
some comparative reports. Once again, I'm crediting

00:28:16.849 --> 00:28:20.769
Waymo with the absolutely best PR in the world

00:28:20.769 --> 00:28:24.569
and absolutely worst representation of the truth

00:28:24.569 --> 00:28:29.829
in their data and giving, I guess, an assist

00:28:29.829 --> 00:28:32.589
to New York Times for not bothering to actually

00:28:32.589 --> 00:28:34.309
find out what the hell is going on when they

00:28:34.309 --> 00:28:38.529
publish their data. So there you go. There's

00:28:38.529 --> 00:28:41.289
my gaslight this week. Pretty good. Pretty good.

00:28:41.369 --> 00:28:44.720
I mean, it's your, you know, You're like a dog

00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:47.559
with a bone here, though. One week, I want to

00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:49.519
see you move on and try something different.

00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:52.460
Mainly because I want to take this. This is so

00:28:52.460 --> 00:28:54.900
good. I meet way more people from time to time.

00:28:55.539 --> 00:28:59.460
I just love being me. Do you give them hugs?

00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:05.000
Hugs are few and far between, I guess. But they're

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:07.519
friendly people for the most part. I'm sure they're

00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:11.480
lovely people. So that's your gaslight. I have

00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.259
a tough one choosing this week. Surprisingly,

00:29:14.259 --> 00:29:17.940
so many. And I think, I mean, there's some obvious

00:29:17.940 --> 00:29:21.299
ones related to Tesla. There's some obvious one

00:29:21.299 --> 00:29:25.339
related to Morrison at NHTSA. But I think I'm

00:29:25.339 --> 00:29:27.160
going to go off book, gentlemen. I'm going to

00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:30.859
go to Donut. That's right. Donut Labs. Yeah,

00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:33.759
Donut Batteries. I just decided right now to

00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:36.640
do this. You have an update? I did. And this

00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.059
is off book. So they started testing their recharging

00:29:40.059 --> 00:29:43.410
rate on their batteries. publicly doing these

00:29:43.410 --> 00:29:46.450
public tests, which is great. They said, we're

00:29:46.450 --> 00:29:48.529
doing this stuff. But I don't know if you guys

00:29:48.529 --> 00:29:50.930
remember here, back in the day when they announced

00:29:50.930 --> 00:29:53.089
this, they said, it's going to charge so fast,

00:29:53.170 --> 00:29:56.690
we're going to slow it down. Our charge, because

00:29:56.690 --> 00:30:02.309
we charge so quickly. It turns out they can reach

00:30:02.309 --> 00:30:05.549
a charge of 50 % in about five minutes, which

00:30:05.549 --> 00:30:08.400
is not them slowing it down. Cause they were

00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:10.740
saying we're getting a hundred percent in five

00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:13.839
minutes as something like that. Don't quote me

00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:15.960
on this. So, so if they're getting five minutes

00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:19.339
now to 50%, they're halfway there. They, they,

00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:22.359
they did slow down. You're right. There you go.

00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:25.819
So where's your gas light now? I, you know, I,

00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:29.220
I, it's still clearly not winning. It's still,

00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:32.019
I never claimed to win this week. I mean, fine.

00:30:32.180 --> 00:30:34.480
I'll just jump to my backup. Then my backup being.

00:30:35.410 --> 00:30:38.289
Tesla. Oh, wait, you're changing the goalposts.

00:30:38.410 --> 00:30:42.089
Yeah, but I'm the judge and jury. No, you're

00:30:42.089 --> 00:30:47.430
not. So it's March 18th right now. Donut says

00:30:47.430 --> 00:30:50.329
this battery, which we all, I think all of us

00:30:50.329 --> 00:30:54.430
hope, is a magical unicorn that comes to market.

00:30:54.789 --> 00:30:58.089
They've got two weeks left to deliver it according

00:30:58.089 --> 00:31:01.069
to their timeline. They're testing it. They're

00:31:01.069 --> 00:31:02.809
saying we're testing an older version of the

00:31:02.809 --> 00:31:06.619
battery. We're charging. They're basically trying

00:31:06.619 --> 00:31:08.839
to say that, oh, it's a battery, not a super

00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:12.799
capacitor. Because I guess some skeptics are

00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:14.059
like, yeah, they make a battery. They made a

00:31:14.059 --> 00:31:16.240
super capacitor. In my very limited understanding

00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:18.160
of electrical engineering, a capacitor is essentially

00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:21.880
a battery. But I guess the way they can hold

00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:24.700
charge is different. Capacitor is just temporary.

00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:26.960
Battery is more long -term storage. And I'm looking

00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:29.720
towards Mr. Perkins to see how off I am on this.

00:31:30.729 --> 00:31:32.630
I don't know. I haven't studied the chemistry.

00:31:32.869 --> 00:31:34.890
I don't know how they work. But like a capacitor

00:31:34.890 --> 00:31:38.210
versus a battery, that's roughly right? Oh, capacitor,

00:31:38.390 --> 00:31:40.150
well, it depends on the size of the battery and

00:31:40.150 --> 00:31:43.150
the size of the capacitor. But in general, capacitors

00:31:43.150 --> 00:31:48.930
are way faster. Right. Okay. So that's it. And

00:31:48.930 --> 00:31:52.569
I think, I mean, I'm giving the win this week

00:31:52.569 --> 00:31:55.569
to Michael because we went in depth there on

00:31:55.569 --> 00:32:00.029
dads. And, you know, Fred, I love the Waymo Crusade.

00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:03.380
Big fan of it because they need to be called

00:32:03.380 --> 00:32:05.700
out. And I think, you know, you've made a little

00:32:05.700 --> 00:32:08.279
dent in that, that the New York times, you know,

00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:11.339
they sent an intern to do a little bit of research

00:32:11.339 --> 00:32:14.140
and they, they pushed back a little bit by saying,

00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:18.059
and, and Waymo says in their own studies or in

00:32:18.059 --> 00:32:19.839
the past, they would just be like, according

00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:23.680
to studies. Yeah. I never cited that it was Waymo

00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:26.980
doing their own work. Well, you know, you've

00:32:26.980 --> 00:32:30.710
got to give credit to somebody who steers. A

00:32:30.710 --> 00:32:34.130
very large, uncooperative ship. Right. I mean,

00:32:34.190 --> 00:32:37.190
you know, there's a handicap associated with

00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:39.250
telling the New York Times that they're full

00:32:39.250 --> 00:32:44.789
of, shall we say, water? No, you definitely don't

00:32:44.789 --> 00:32:46.990
win. That metaphor was too lame. Michael, you're

00:32:46.990 --> 00:32:50.250
the winner. I want to go back to that article,

00:32:50.309 --> 00:32:53.890
too, because not on the gaslight side of things,

00:32:53.950 --> 00:32:57.509
but on the... Kind of the what is Waymo supposed

00:32:57.509 --> 00:33:00.369
to do about this problem kind of thing, right?

00:33:00.430 --> 00:33:03.410
You have, you know, we've talked about this before,

00:33:03.490 --> 00:33:06.390
where folks essentially walk out in front of

00:33:06.390 --> 00:33:09.009
a driverless car, whether they're harassing women

00:33:09.009 --> 00:33:12.710
or harassing riders. You know, there's all sorts

00:33:12.710 --> 00:33:15.130
of different reasons why it's happening. But

00:33:15.130 --> 00:33:17.970
ultimately, the behavior that's causing these

00:33:17.970 --> 00:33:21.759
incidents is criminal. in nature right um if

00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:24.839
you're driving your own vehicle you know you

00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:27.819
have the option of doing exactly what the waymo

00:33:27.819 --> 00:33:30.420
vehicles are doing here stopping locking your

00:33:30.420 --> 00:33:34.259
doors i mean you could take even you know riskier

00:33:34.259 --> 00:33:37.099
action by driving and potentially colliding with

00:33:37.099 --> 00:33:39.700
one of the people who is doing this harassment

00:33:39.700 --> 00:33:42.109
that's a that's a That's an action that I don't

00:33:42.109 --> 00:33:44.589
think Waymo is ever going to be willing to take

00:33:44.589 --> 00:33:48.829
to risk human life with their robo taxi is what

00:33:48.829 --> 00:33:50.809
would pose a lot of problems for them. You know,

00:33:50.809 --> 00:33:53.349
what do you what do we want Waymo vehicles to

00:33:53.349 --> 00:33:55.470
be doing in this situation? You know, they're

00:33:55.470 --> 00:33:57.730
not going to be able to deploy cruise missiles

00:33:57.730 --> 00:34:01.849
or pepper spray or, you know. What is an autonomous

00:34:01.849 --> 00:34:05.730
vehicle supposed to do in this situation to protect

00:34:05.730 --> 00:34:09.289
its passengers? There's a quote at the end of

00:34:09.289 --> 00:34:12.170
the article that says, as passengers, we deserve

00:34:12.170 --> 00:34:15.570
more safety than essentially what's being provided.

00:34:15.690 --> 00:34:18.969
If someone is trying to attack us, there can't

00:34:18.969 --> 00:34:21.630
be a policy to just leave us there trapped. But,

00:34:21.690 --> 00:34:24.510
I mean, I don't know what the solution is there.

00:34:24.610 --> 00:34:27.170
Well, the solution is to not operate until you

00:34:27.170 --> 00:34:30.099
can guarantee safety. But how is an autonomous

00:34:30.099 --> 00:34:32.420
vehicle company ever going to be able to guarantee

00:34:32.420 --> 00:34:34.900
that some crackpot doesn't step off the curb

00:34:34.900 --> 00:34:36.719
in front of the car and harass the passengers?

00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:39.940
Not my problem. Yeah, I just don't see a way

00:34:39.940 --> 00:34:43.340
of that ever. Just like a human driving a car

00:34:43.340 --> 00:34:45.440
will never be able to control whether or not

00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:47.760
that happens. Well, they've had to create this

00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:51.239
imaginary perception of safety anyway to get

00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:54.380
any customers to use it. So, you know, this is...

00:34:54.780 --> 00:34:57.179
This is really no different, in my opinion. It's

00:34:57.179 --> 00:35:00.039
just another hazard that's associated with the

00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:02.760
autonomous operation of vehicles that they have

00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:07.800
not managed in any meaningful way. If they can

00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:10.820
continue to get people to use the vehicle while

00:35:10.820 --> 00:35:14.480
signing away their rights to compensation and

00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:20.179
legal redress, good for them, I guess. Good for

00:35:20.179 --> 00:35:24.030
their stockholders, but it's not... Not something

00:35:24.030 --> 00:35:26.110
I want to participate in and not something I

00:35:26.110 --> 00:35:30.489
would endorse. You know, there's nothing inevitable

00:35:30.489 --> 00:35:34.309
about operation of unsafe autonomous vehicles

00:35:34.309 --> 00:35:39.250
on public roads. Yeah, but see, even if, say,

00:35:39.429 --> 00:35:42.750
we live in a fantasy world, right, where Waymo

00:35:42.750 --> 00:35:46.329
vehicles are 100 % safe, they're never having

00:35:46.329 --> 00:35:49.070
a crash, they aren't. Obviously, that's a pretend

00:35:49.070 --> 00:35:52.469
world, but that still doesn't resolve this issue.

00:35:53.190 --> 00:35:56.570
of a human being stepping out in front of this

00:35:56.570 --> 00:35:59.349
autonomous vehicle, which is 100 % of the time

00:35:59.349 --> 00:36:02.530
going to stop. You know, we also in this fantasy

00:36:02.530 --> 00:36:06.130
world where they're perfect, right? I think we're

00:36:06.130 --> 00:36:08.050
somewhat blame shifting here when we put the

00:36:08.050 --> 00:36:10.829
blame on Waymo for locking the door and sitting

00:36:10.829 --> 00:36:14.010
there when there is, you know, a criminal action

00:36:14.010 --> 00:36:17.670
taking place outside of the vehicle that there's

00:36:17.670 --> 00:36:21.780
really little Waymo could do to prevent. So I

00:36:21.780 --> 00:36:24.059
don't know. I feel like there's a fundamental

00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:28.480
problem in in this situation that I don't know

00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:31.699
if there is a good answer to other than addressing

00:36:31.699 --> 00:36:34.559
the actual criminal activity that's going on.

00:36:35.219 --> 00:36:38.360
I think it's looking at why it actually happens.

00:36:38.440 --> 00:36:42.059
It's because the passengers are helpless. Like

00:36:42.059 --> 00:36:45.079
I've never when I've been in a vehicle driving

00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:47.380
it and you get people in the street harassing

00:36:47.380 --> 00:36:50.900
you, I can respond. I mean, that's the thing

00:36:50.900 --> 00:36:54.780
is I can respond by by making physical gestures,

00:36:54.940 --> 00:36:58.380
by verbal gestures, by what does that do? No,

00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:01.179
no. But the thing is, no, but they it ends quickly

00:37:01.179 --> 00:37:03.639
like you can do that. And people, you know, you

00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:06.159
basically honk the horn. You can honk the horn

00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:08.079
and show that, hey, I'm going to move this vehicle.

00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:10.760
And, you know, crazy person gets out of your

00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:13.860
way. I think the the problem with the Waymo is

00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:16.679
that there's no one there except for somebody

00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:19.989
in a call center in the Philippines. who can

00:37:19.989 --> 00:37:23.050
can do anything like it's not it's that's that's

00:37:23.050 --> 00:37:24.809
the thing and maybe that's the attraction to

00:37:24.809 --> 00:37:27.849
people who have sociopathic tendencies to be

00:37:27.849 --> 00:37:30.550
like i'm gonna harass this vehicle because of

00:37:30.550 --> 00:37:34.289
something i i i think it's finding what's that

00:37:34.289 --> 00:37:37.750
root cause that people do this like why why would

00:37:37.750 --> 00:37:41.110
you why would you do that i don't know well there's

00:37:41.110 --> 00:37:42.829
a lot of i mean there could be any number of

00:37:42.829 --> 00:37:44.070
reasons there could be mental health reasons

00:37:44.070 --> 00:37:46.190
they could be just you know this this person's

00:37:46.989 --> 00:37:49.349
Off their rocker, they're on drugs. I mean, there

00:37:49.349 --> 00:37:51.489
could be a dozen different reasons why it happens.

00:37:51.530 --> 00:37:54.489
It's just that I don't think there is really

00:37:54.489 --> 00:37:58.230
a good mechanism for Waymo to determine how it

00:37:58.230 --> 00:38:00.730
should respond here. Do you want the robo -taxis

00:38:00.730 --> 00:38:04.550
to start honking and moving forward slowly, potentially

00:38:04.550 --> 00:38:07.809
risking a collision with this person that's harassing

00:38:07.809 --> 00:38:09.690
the vehicle or group of people that's harassing

00:38:09.690 --> 00:38:12.360
the vehicle? That's a tough question there. I

00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:15.880
mean, I wish, I don't think we have the answers

00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:18.000
for that yet. And I don't know that, you know,

00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.820
we have the capabilities to address the criminal

00:38:20.820 --> 00:38:23.900
behavior behind it fully. I think we can expect

00:38:23.900 --> 00:38:28.280
this to continue happening. And so far, you know,

00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:30.880
from all the cases we've seen, right, there haven't

00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:33.739
been any situations where the vehicle has been

00:38:33.739 --> 00:38:36.239
breached and the passengers have been injured.

00:38:36.300 --> 00:38:39.860
As far as I know, that certainly remains a possibility.

00:38:40.750 --> 00:38:44.010
But even in that circumstance, you know, you

00:38:44.010 --> 00:38:47.250
could see the same thing happen, you know, to

00:38:47.250 --> 00:38:51.590
a car that's not self -driving. So I don't know

00:38:51.590 --> 00:38:54.489
what the answer is or if this is even really

00:38:54.489 --> 00:39:02.389
a truly a large as, you know, an issue that can

00:39:02.389 --> 00:39:05.949
be addressed. The psychological thing is that

00:39:05.949 --> 00:39:08.090
you're exterior to the vehicle and you realize

00:39:08.090 --> 00:39:10.130
I'm in control of the vehicle, not the person

00:39:10.130 --> 00:39:13.030
inside because I can stop the sensors. It's a,

00:39:13.130 --> 00:39:15.289
yeah, but I, Michael, you're right. I don't,

00:39:15.289 --> 00:39:17.570
I don't know. And maybe it's something over time

00:39:17.570 --> 00:39:19.530
where these things become more ubiquitous that

00:39:19.530 --> 00:39:22.789
people just start to ignore them. I don't, I

00:39:22.789 --> 00:39:24.590
think it's likely you're on the opposite direction

00:39:24.590 --> 00:39:27.469
because the people who are inclined to do this

00:39:27.469 --> 00:39:30.650
are finding that it's consequence free and it's

00:39:30.650 --> 00:39:34.769
great fun. You know, they're just going to, in

00:39:34.769 --> 00:39:38.210
my opinion, likely to keep on doing it. In fact,

00:39:38.210 --> 00:39:39.949
even doing it worse. I mean, look at all these

00:39:39.949 --> 00:39:44.010
stupid TikTok challenges that propagate, right?

00:39:44.110 --> 00:39:48.750
This is a natural TikTok challenge to propagate

00:39:48.750 --> 00:39:52.789
around the world if the Waymos go around the

00:39:52.789 --> 00:39:56.590
world. And, you know, kids especially do stupid

00:39:56.590 --> 00:39:59.070
things. That's how kids are defined, I think.

00:40:01.759 --> 00:40:04.719
That was a great Bill Cosby show. I think you've

00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:06.699
put your finger on it, Michael. What the hell

00:40:06.699 --> 00:40:11.099
can you really do? If you pass severe laws, you're

00:40:11.099 --> 00:40:13.920
going to tie up the cops and the courts. And

00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:16.460
the courts are already being, at least the federal

00:40:16.460 --> 00:40:19.539
courts, being inundated by immigration problems

00:40:19.539 --> 00:40:21.920
right now. And the backlogs run to years and

00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:25.699
years and years with all of this deportation

00:40:25.699 --> 00:40:29.849
that's going on. you're not going to solve this

00:40:29.849 --> 00:40:33.130
problem by further burdening the courts and restricting

00:40:33.130 --> 00:40:36.710
their authority. I don't know. Another good reason

00:40:36.710 --> 00:40:39.769
to avoid Waymo, I think. Well, okay, let's move.

00:40:39.809 --> 00:40:41.809
We did a pretty good deep dive on this. Let's

00:40:41.809 --> 00:40:44.909
move on to another autonomous vehicle company

00:40:44.909 --> 00:40:48.070
or two companies. Let's talk autonomous trucks.

00:40:48.730 --> 00:40:52.809
Yes, we've talked about this before, but there's

00:40:52.809 --> 00:40:55.449
more and more of these coming on the road. I

00:40:55.449 --> 00:40:58.110
think only in Texas, it looks like. And it's

00:40:58.110 --> 00:41:00.429
really just seems to be the Dallas to Houston

00:41:00.429 --> 00:41:03.989
run on the I -45. And you've got Aurora Innovation

00:41:03.989 --> 00:41:09.489
and the other one being Kodiak of really pushing

00:41:09.489 --> 00:41:11.670
this stuff out there. And they're making kind

00:41:11.670 --> 00:41:15.030
of the same arguments that Waymo makes saying,

00:41:15.130 --> 00:41:17.349
hey, this is safer. Everything's great. We can

00:41:17.349 --> 00:41:19.610
drive. One of their arguments say, hey, we can

00:41:19.610 --> 00:41:21.610
do a thousand mile run. You can't do that with

00:41:21.610 --> 00:41:23.670
a human. Why can't you do that with a human?

00:41:23.750 --> 00:41:27.929
Because people need brakes. I wasn't aware that

00:41:27.929 --> 00:41:30.090
18 wheelers could actually have enough fuel to

00:41:30.090 --> 00:41:32.989
do a thousand mile run without refueling. How

00:41:32.989 --> 00:41:35.469
far can they go? I mean, I figured they got to

00:41:35.469 --> 00:41:36.849
pull. That's one of the things I think we've

00:41:36.849 --> 00:41:40.989
brought up in the context of Tesla's electric

00:41:40.989 --> 00:41:45.309
semi is that it has compared to your average

00:41:45.309 --> 00:41:48.010
diesel vehicle. It has a very limited range.

00:41:48.090 --> 00:41:52.070
And it's carrying potato chips. It has a much

00:41:52.070 --> 00:41:54.769
more limited range than a diesel. And it has.

00:41:56.139 --> 00:42:00.480
much more weight in its powertrain than the diesel

00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:03.400
so that's kind of some of the concerns about

00:42:03.400 --> 00:42:06.679
its ability to scale so this is an article from

00:42:06.679 --> 00:42:08.780
the new york times titled driverless big rigs

00:42:08.780 --> 00:42:13.219
are coming to american highways and soon so the

00:42:13.219 --> 00:42:16.000
takeaway well my takeaway from the article is

00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:17.719
it talks about they still have an issue with

00:42:17.719 --> 00:42:21.280
phantom braking and this is where a big rig just

00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:23.820
like we've seen in passenger vehicles even before

00:42:23.820 --> 00:42:26.320
avs where they'll just The brakes just apply

00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:29.239
automatically. Now, if in your family sedan or

00:42:29.239 --> 00:42:33.539
SUV, the issue is dangerous, but a lot less dangerous

00:42:33.539 --> 00:42:36.239
than if you're calling, you know, calling a big

00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:40.619
rig because that phantom braking event is much

00:42:40.619 --> 00:42:42.559
more dramatic because of something called physics.

00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:45.719
Now, I don't know if you believe in physics or

00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:48.380
not or momentum or things of that nature, but

00:42:48.380 --> 00:42:51.239
if you do, I think you can see that this is a

00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:54.429
lot more dangerous. Trucking companies are trying

00:42:54.429 --> 00:42:56.489
to say, well, we have LIDAR as well, and that

00:42:56.489 --> 00:42:59.909
will reduce. Thankfully, they're not being dishonest.

00:42:59.909 --> 00:43:03.070
They're not pulling some PR thing saying, yeah,

00:43:03.230 --> 00:43:06.230
it won't eliminate phantom braking, but it will

00:43:06.230 --> 00:43:09.710
greatly reduce. And they're probably right on

00:43:09.710 --> 00:43:12.949
this, but there's still no way to solve this

00:43:12.949 --> 00:43:16.610
problem with these autonomous trucks. So two

00:43:16.610 --> 00:43:18.989
questions, gentlemen. Actually, one question.

00:43:19.690 --> 00:43:22.300
Is this? Are these actually moving? Are there

00:43:22.300 --> 00:43:24.559
other states besides this one corridor in Texas

00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:27.079
that is ready to start deploying these things?

00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:30.840
Well, I've read they're driving to Phoenix. Oh.

00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:33.440
So if that's true, then they'd be going through

00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:40.159
New Mexico and Arizona. But I can't come up with

00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:45.260
a corroborating study. We expected the driverless

00:43:45.260 --> 00:43:51.079
semis to move. and and to be successful a little

00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:53.800
quicker than the autonomous vehicles that are

00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:56.000
operating in cities because driverless trucks

00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:58.840
were essentially being seen as something that's

00:43:58.840 --> 00:44:03.059
going to operate on interstates not inter inside

00:44:03.059 --> 00:44:05.840
of cities you know they were talking about it

00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:09.699
as a way to move products from you know point

00:44:09.699 --> 00:44:13.650
a to point b essentially in kind of a moving

00:44:13.650 --> 00:44:17.210
it from to zones outside of cities. And then

00:44:17.210 --> 00:44:19.190
the final delivery would take place with the

00:44:19.190 --> 00:44:21.929
human driver so that these autonomous vehicles

00:44:21.929 --> 00:44:24.750
were essentially operating in what is ultimately

00:44:24.750 --> 00:44:29.250
one of the safest per mile environments for driving

00:44:29.250 --> 00:44:32.409
in America, which is on interstate highways or

00:44:32.409 --> 00:44:37.449
on divided highways. So, you know, I'm not surprised

00:44:37.449 --> 00:44:41.230
to see this. this industry continue to grow and

00:44:41.230 --> 00:44:44.610
to add rides. However, they still have a long

00:44:44.610 --> 00:44:50.250
way to go. We haven't seen them operate. We're

00:44:50.250 --> 00:44:52.989
not sure how well they operate in bad weather

00:44:52.989 --> 00:44:55.750
conditions, how they might be able to scale to

00:44:55.750 --> 00:44:59.030
other areas of the country. There's certainly

00:44:59.030 --> 00:45:01.309
a lot of concerns around this technology because

00:45:01.309 --> 00:45:04.230
when something does go wrong, as pointed out

00:45:04.230 --> 00:45:09.050
by Missy Cummings in the article, You're talking

00:45:09.050 --> 00:45:12.070
about a lot more weight and bigger sizes and

00:45:12.070 --> 00:45:13.489
weights that are going to put the surrounding

00:45:13.489 --> 00:45:17.949
vehicles at greater danger. So that's where we

00:45:17.949 --> 00:45:22.570
are. They're certainly expanding in Texas, and

00:45:22.570 --> 00:45:25.889
Aurora appears to be set to expand dramatically

00:45:25.889 --> 00:45:28.969
in the next year. We know they started doing

00:45:28.969 --> 00:45:32.829
some rides without safety drivers last year,

00:45:32.869 --> 00:45:35.329
I think it was, and then quickly stopped that

00:45:35.329 --> 00:45:38.559
because the manufacturer of their trucks. Packer

00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:41.719
disagreed with their approach. We're assuming

00:45:41.719 --> 00:45:44.719
that was for liability reasons, even though I

00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:46.780
don't believe Packer was willing to comment on

00:45:46.780 --> 00:45:49.460
that situation for this article. Yeah. And from

00:45:49.460 --> 00:45:50.679
the article, it's talking about they're doing

00:45:50.679 --> 00:45:53.599
a one of these companies doing a run of refrigerated

00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:58.039
goods from Dallas to Phoenix or Fort Worth to

00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:01.920
Phoenix, somewhere, Texas to Arizona. And you're

00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:06.539
right, Fred. None of these articles have still

00:46:06.539 --> 00:46:08.780
touched on that last mile problem. They just

00:46:08.780 --> 00:46:11.679
kind of say, hey, at this small part, a human

00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:14.219
driver is going to get involved. Maybe this just

00:46:14.219 --> 00:46:16.300
might be too in the weeds, but I still don't

00:46:16.300 --> 00:46:18.719
understand how that handover happens. Are these

00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:20.619
things pulling on the side of the freeway and

00:46:20.619 --> 00:46:23.239
there's a guy there? They're like pulling into

00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:26.099
stations essentially outside of major cities.

00:46:26.099 --> 00:46:29.199
So they make the bulk of the distance traveled

00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:32.719
is on the interstate, but it's simply the, you

00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:36.659
know. The last few miles into and out of cities

00:46:36.659 --> 00:46:39.000
where you would see the human drivers operate

00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:41.539
them. Now, is that true or is that just the logical

00:46:41.539 --> 00:46:44.800
assumption you're making? I believe I mean, I

00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:47.260
don't know. We could check a Kodiak and Aurora's

00:46:47.260 --> 00:46:49.980
operations, but I believe that's how they their

00:46:49.980 --> 00:46:52.559
business model was initially proposed. Because

00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:53.960
that's always the thing that seems to be they

00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:56.079
just no one really talks about that. And that's

00:46:56.079 --> 00:46:57.980
always the question I've had and been too lazy

00:46:57.980 --> 00:47:00.199
to say. I mean, and they say, you know, we're

00:47:00.199 --> 00:47:02.320
operating on, you know, they say they're operating

00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:06.079
on. this interstate and it doesn't have any allusion

00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:08.599
to operating, you know, inside the city and actually

00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:11.840
making the delivery, the final delivery. Well,

00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:15.099
I'm sure they will in time. Yeah, I think in

00:47:15.099 --> 00:47:17.739
time, that's something that they're certainly

00:47:17.739 --> 00:47:20.800
going to consider. I just don't know that they're

00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:24.260
quite ready to take on the challenge of urban

00:47:24.260 --> 00:47:27.739
driving with a semi, which I think we all know

00:47:27.739 --> 00:47:32.159
is not easy at all. I think one of the things

00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:36.139
that's not being discussed at all is the proclivity

00:47:36.139 --> 00:47:38.239
or, I'm not going to, it's not the right word,

00:47:38.300 --> 00:47:41.039
but the likelihood of criminal behavior. The

00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:45.940
hijacking trucks is fairly common, I guess, and

00:47:45.940 --> 00:47:48.519
perhaps it used to be more common. But like these

00:47:48.519 --> 00:47:51.199
people in San Francisco with the Waymos, all

00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:54.099
you need to do to stop one of these vehicles

00:47:54.099 --> 00:47:58.119
is stop in front of it. So, you know, you're

00:47:58.119 --> 00:48:01.039
in the middle of nowhere. A car pulls up in front

00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:03.340
of you and slows down gradually. The truck slows

00:48:03.340 --> 00:48:06.260
down gradually. If you're a criminal, this is

00:48:06.260 --> 00:48:09.179
a best case situation. You don't even have to

00:48:09.179 --> 00:48:11.719
confront the human being. You detest the load

00:48:11.719 --> 00:48:14.480
and go on your way. And, you know, they can switch

00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:17.980
loads in just a couple of minutes. And I don't

00:48:17.980 --> 00:48:20.119
know how they're going to solve that problem

00:48:20.119 --> 00:48:26.389
at all. Seems like a real option for... Criminal

00:48:26.389 --> 00:48:28.690
behavior. Now, Fred, on this podcast, you've

00:48:28.690 --> 00:48:31.650
admitted numerous times to a number of crimes

00:48:31.650 --> 00:48:35.090
you've committed. Is this foreshadowing for a

00:48:35.090 --> 00:48:40.250
future career? Let me consult my attorney on

00:48:40.250 --> 00:48:43.690
that. Okay. I don't know why they just don't

00:48:43.690 --> 00:48:45.510
have the driver just sleep in the cab during

00:48:45.510 --> 00:48:47.380
these things and they can just wake up. Then

00:48:47.380 --> 00:48:49.420
you always have a human there. Anyway, it doesn't

00:48:49.420 --> 00:48:52.219
matter. Related to this, before we jump into

00:48:52.219 --> 00:48:55.780
the Tau, is an article from IIHS. And this is

00:48:55.780 --> 00:48:58.019
something I didn't know. This one is titled,

00:48:58.119 --> 00:48:59.800
Let's Prioritize Safety in the Vehicles that

00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:01.940
Power Our Economy. And I'm going to quote from

00:49:01.940 --> 00:49:04.119
it. Many government safety standards that apply

00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:06.260
to passenger vehicles don't apply to commercial

00:49:06.260 --> 00:49:09.260
vehicles, which means they often lack basic features

00:49:09.260 --> 00:49:11.699
like airbags. There are also no requirements

00:49:11.699 --> 00:49:14.320
for automatic emergency braking or other advanced

00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:16.809
driver assistance systems. These systems are

00:49:16.809 --> 00:49:18.309
particularly important when you consider that

00:49:18.309 --> 00:49:20.869
most people who die in truck crashes are other

00:49:20.869 --> 00:49:24.329
road users. Now, I imagine Kodak and Aurora,

00:49:24.590 --> 00:49:27.849
they have, you know, since it's a full ADS system,

00:49:27.949 --> 00:49:30.250
it's automated, they have AEB and things like

00:49:30.250 --> 00:49:32.889
that built into it. But you're telling me my,

00:49:32.969 --> 00:49:35.389
when I'm going down the highway and there's some

00:49:35.389 --> 00:49:38.849
large Peterbilt next to me, they don't have requirements

00:49:38.849 --> 00:49:41.889
for airbags for the safety of their own drivers?

00:49:41.969 --> 00:49:44.619
They don't have... automatic emergency braking

00:49:44.619 --> 00:49:46.840
required like automatic emergency braking would

00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:49.639
be the one that i mean i'd want because i'm one

00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:52.119
of the few road users that knows when do you

00:49:52.119 --> 00:49:53.980
cross in front of an 18 -wheeler i want to see

00:49:53.980 --> 00:49:56.300
the entire front end of it in my rearview mirror

00:49:56.300 --> 00:49:58.280
because everyone else just tries to jump right

00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:00.079
in front of it and give these poor guys heart

00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:05.619
attacks and cows yeah you know nips uh did the

00:50:05.619 --> 00:50:09.380
automatic emergency braking rule um and completed

00:50:09.380 --> 00:50:14.320
it um gosh almost two years ago at this point,

00:50:14.380 --> 00:50:19.159
and it's still being held up. But it only applies

00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:22.219
to passenger vehicles, which are, you know, essentially

00:50:22.219 --> 00:50:24.739
vehicles, you know, a simplified way of explaining

00:50:24.739 --> 00:50:26.880
it, vehicles up to 10 ,000 pounds. That's going

00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:30.519
to be cars and light truck categories. But that

00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:33.559
doesn't touch, you know, a lot of like the heavy

00:50:33.559 --> 00:50:36.719
duty pickups that weigh more than 10 ,000 pounds,

00:50:36.800 --> 00:50:39.760
a lot of the delivery vans, you know, anything

00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:43.219
larger that doesn't. doesn't qualify as a passenger

00:50:43.219 --> 00:50:48.780
vehicle that the aeb rules that nizza um enacted

00:50:48.780 --> 00:50:53.019
during 2024 and which we're still waiting on

00:50:53.019 --> 00:50:57.539
don't apply to those vehicles the um that that

00:50:57.539 --> 00:51:01.619
issue was supposed to be taken up by i believe

00:51:01.619 --> 00:51:04.320
the federal highway administration or the um

00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:09.480
where There's a separate rulemaking that was

00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:14.000
ongoing that didn't come out related to heavy

00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:16.889
truck automatic emergency braking. So that's

00:51:16.889 --> 00:51:19.570
something we're still waiting on in that area.

00:51:19.650 --> 00:51:22.610
And even then, you know, it was a lift just to

00:51:22.610 --> 00:51:26.369
get them to consider expanding AB, not only to

00:51:26.369 --> 00:51:28.869
the trucks, but also to the all sorts of delivery

00:51:28.869 --> 00:51:32.989
vehicles and vans and, you know, everything operating

00:51:32.989 --> 00:51:36.309
in our neighborhoods. Getting pedestrian automatic

00:51:36.309 --> 00:51:39.130
emergency braking on those and regular automatic

00:51:39.130 --> 00:51:41.489
emergency braking on those vehicles is. going

00:51:41.489 --> 00:51:44.809
to be critical to ultimately preventing a lot

00:51:44.809 --> 00:51:46.530
of the deaths and injuries on our road that occur

00:51:46.530 --> 00:51:49.349
in rear collisions and in that type of situation.

00:51:49.710 --> 00:51:52.349
So that's kind of the state of play right now.

00:51:52.429 --> 00:51:57.349
There are no requirements there for AEB. Luckily,

00:51:57.650 --> 00:51:59.889
you know, a lot of the large diesel manufacturers,

00:52:00.190 --> 00:52:02.250
I think, are incorporating automatic emergency

00:52:02.250 --> 00:52:05.269
braking into their trucks. However, you know,

00:52:05.269 --> 00:52:08.429
without minimum safety standards to ensure consistent

00:52:08.429 --> 00:52:12.409
and effective operation there. So it's difficult

00:52:12.409 --> 00:52:15.630
to know just how how well those operations are

00:52:15.630 --> 00:52:19.510
going. I always feel concerned when I see a FedEx

00:52:19.510 --> 00:52:22.090
or UPS truck because the inside for the driver

00:52:22.090 --> 00:52:24.550
just looks like a death trap. Like those side

00:52:24.550 --> 00:52:27.050
doors being open. I mean, thankfully, I see them

00:52:27.050 --> 00:52:29.809
wearing seatbelts, but I didn't know they might

00:52:29.809 --> 00:52:33.250
not have an airbag. And with that, it is time

00:52:33.250 --> 00:52:36.789
for the Tao of Perkins. Look at that. I switched

00:52:36.789 --> 00:52:41.960
it up a little bit. Good morning, gentlepersons.

00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:45.260
So, there's an article in Atlantic this week,

00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:48.400
the title of which is, Why Tesla Was Driving

00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:53.159
Itself Perfectly Until It Crashed. Now, for those

00:52:53.159 --> 00:52:56.300
who are not familiar with Tesla, they are using

00:52:56.300 --> 00:53:00.699
artificial intelligence to drive the car, except

00:53:00.699 --> 00:53:02.739
when it's in a critical condition, then they

00:53:02.739 --> 00:53:05.460
switch it off so that you, the driver, are legally

00:53:05.460 --> 00:53:09.539
responsible for whatever happens. Now, this article

00:53:09.539 --> 00:53:15.079
is written by Sean Dong, and it says here, quoting,

00:53:15.260 --> 00:53:17.260
I used to run the self -driving car division

00:53:17.260 --> 00:53:20.860
at Uber, trying to build a future in which technology

00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:24.599
protects us from accidents. Close quote. Noble

00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:26.480
ambition. Just a quick correction. The article

00:53:26.480 --> 00:53:29.980
is from Rafi Krikorian. Sean Dong illustrated

00:53:29.980 --> 00:53:32.820
it. Thank you. Pardon. I was reading the wrong

00:53:32.820 --> 00:53:38.679
line. Yeah. Thank you for that, Michael. So,

00:53:38.679 --> 00:53:41.059
it's a longish article, and of course, can't

00:53:41.059 --> 00:53:45.059
read the whole thing here, but I'll get a few

00:53:45.059 --> 00:53:48.039
of the high points here. Quoting again, my car

00:53:48.039 --> 00:53:50.400
is full self -driving mode. I remember that was

00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:54.019
a Tesla. Logged flawless miles for three years,

00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:56.980
but when the accident happened, it was my name

00:53:56.980 --> 00:54:01.679
on the insurance report. Close quote. So, what...

00:54:01.980 --> 00:54:04.599
Tesla did is automatically drove him into his

00:54:04.599 --> 00:54:08.599
own personally responsible disaster, nearly killing

00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:12.300
himself and his children as they ran into a wall

00:54:12.300 --> 00:54:17.800
during a turn that they had apparently navigated

00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:22.019
many times before. And he says, for now, the

00:54:22.019 --> 00:54:24.300
legal principle is simple. You're responsible.

00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:28.460
Well, that's okay if you're in a position where

00:54:28.460 --> 00:54:33.719
you can be responsible. He goes on to say, Tesla's

00:54:33.719 --> 00:54:37.679
description of self -driving on his website warns,

00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:40.519
do not become complacent. And I didn't think

00:54:40.519 --> 00:54:46.699
I was. But it's impossible, basically, to be

00:54:46.699 --> 00:54:50.679
a fully vigilant person and also monitor a nearly

00:54:50.679 --> 00:54:54.760
autonomous system. He goes on to say, monitoring

00:54:54.760 --> 00:54:57.980
a nearly perfect system is boring. Boredom leads

00:54:57.980 --> 00:55:01.050
to mind -wandering. Drivers need five to eight

00:55:01.050 --> 00:55:03.769
seconds to mentally re -engage after an automated

00:55:03.769 --> 00:55:07.309
driving system gives control back. But emergencies

00:55:07.309 --> 00:55:10.530
can unfold much faster than that. The driver's

00:55:10.530 --> 00:55:13.369
physical reaction might be instantaneous, driving

00:55:13.369 --> 00:55:15.650
the wheel, hitting the brake. But the mental

00:55:15.650 --> 00:55:18.929
part? Rebuilding context, recognizing what's

00:55:18.929 --> 00:55:22.269
wrong, deciding what to do. That takes time your

00:55:22.269 --> 00:55:29.139
brain doesn't have. So the point here is... With

00:55:29.139 --> 00:55:32.320
an automatic system that's almost perfect, you're

00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:35.000
going to get bored to tears. And he says, you

00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:39.820
know, in his experience, AI is inherently hazardous.

00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:43.940
Quoting again, cars train us mile by mile. AI

00:55:43.940 --> 00:55:47.159
trains us week by week. In week one, you read

00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:50.300
a chatbot's output carefully. By week three,

00:55:50.340 --> 00:55:53.239
you're copying and pasting without reading. Well,

00:55:53.260 --> 00:55:55.519
the same thing is, close quote, same thing is

00:55:55.519 --> 00:55:59.170
true for the cars, right? Start off slowly. You're

00:55:59.170 --> 00:56:02.469
very vigilant. You are suspicious of the car's

00:56:02.469 --> 00:56:06.530
behavior when it's under AI. Soon you relax.

00:56:07.449 --> 00:56:11.210
And soon you relax beyond the limits of where

00:56:11.210 --> 00:56:14.369
you should relax. Our airplane systems with automatic

00:56:14.369 --> 00:56:19.530
controls have built in tests and tasks that they

00:56:19.530 --> 00:56:22.289
give to the pilots to make sure that they remain

00:56:22.289 --> 00:56:24.710
engaged. There's nothing like that built into

00:56:24.710 --> 00:56:28.440
the AI that's... governing cars right now, particularly

00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:35.159
not the Teslas. The Waymo cars are designed to

00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:37.380
not be driven by a human being, so they don't

00:56:37.380 --> 00:56:39.820
presume that there's any human being who's going

00:56:39.820 --> 00:56:44.420
to take over. In some situations, a human being

00:56:44.420 --> 00:56:47.699
needs to take over, such as we talked about earlier.

00:56:48.039 --> 00:56:51.139
But for the Tesla and things that are called

00:56:51.139 --> 00:56:54.880
the SAE Level 2 cars, if they're relying upon...

00:56:55.659 --> 00:56:59.559
Nearly perfect, but still imperfect AI systems.

00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:03.559
You are in a world of hurt because you will get

00:57:03.559 --> 00:57:06.139
used to the system. You will come over there

00:57:06.139 --> 00:57:08.639
and let down them. Your attention will wander

00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:11.800
and you're going to end up in a bad place more

00:57:11.800 --> 00:57:16.880
than likely. So I encourage people to read this

00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:19.880
article. It's in the current, I guess, the current

00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:23.119
version of Atlantic, Michael. Yeah, that's April.

00:57:23.949 --> 00:57:26.469
And we'll have the reference on our website.

00:57:26.550 --> 00:57:33.570
But the AI, embedded AI, as Phil Coleman would

00:57:33.570 --> 00:57:36.429
tell you and has written a book about it, is

00:57:36.429 --> 00:57:40.530
inherently hazardous simply because it's a human

00:57:40.530 --> 00:57:43.130
characteristic. If you do not pay attention to

00:57:43.130 --> 00:57:44.789
something, you feel you don't have to pay attention

00:57:44.789 --> 00:57:47.849
to. And that's exactly what AI is all about.

00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:51.780
But it's imperfect. And when you buy AI, you

00:57:51.780 --> 00:57:53.659
assume it's going to be perfect because that's

00:57:53.659 --> 00:57:55.800
why you bought it, right? Doing something for

00:57:55.800 --> 00:57:59.559
you. But there are some real hidden problems

00:57:59.559 --> 00:58:03.000
in there. Again, there are a lot of inherent

00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:06.719
problems in any vehicle that is being driven

00:58:06.719 --> 00:58:09.280
by a computer that don't exist for human -driven

00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:13.500
vehicles. And these are not cataloged very well.

00:58:13.780 --> 00:58:16.440
They're not thought about much, certainly by

00:58:16.440 --> 00:58:19.389
our current regulators. But you as a consumer

00:58:19.389 --> 00:58:21.969
really need to pay attention to this because

00:58:21.969 --> 00:58:25.070
it has life and death consequences. That's it

00:58:25.070 --> 00:58:27.469
for today. Yeah. And I'll add to that because

00:58:27.469 --> 00:58:29.769
I don't know if Fred mentioned this, but maybe

00:58:29.769 --> 00:58:33.110
I missed it. The writer of that article used

00:58:33.110 --> 00:58:35.809
to be the head of the self -driving operations

00:58:35.809 --> 00:58:38.429
at Uber. So it's not like they just fell off

00:58:38.429 --> 00:58:40.769
the turnip truck and hopped into a Tesla. They're

00:58:40.769 --> 00:58:44.510
not like just some neuroscientist or neurosurgeon

00:58:44.510 --> 00:58:46.250
who just like, I've got an opinion about this

00:58:46.250 --> 00:58:50.000
stuff. My favorite line from this article, because

00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:53.000
this is a really good article, is basically just

00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:55.119
summing up what Fred just said. Psychologists

00:58:55.119 --> 00:58:59.860
call this the vigilance decrement. Or monitoring

00:58:59.860 --> 00:59:02.760
a system, a nearly perfect system, is boring.

00:59:03.920 --> 00:59:06.920
It's great. I love it. I think we could all understand

00:59:06.920 --> 00:59:10.519
how that happens. Yeah, I'm talking to you, Chernobyl.

00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:14.159
Anyway, with that, let's jump into some recalls.

00:59:14.539 --> 00:59:19.519
First up, Toyota. Whoa, big recall. 550 ,007

00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:23.019
vehicles. The 2021 to 2024 Highlander Hybrid.

00:59:23.360 --> 00:59:28.179
The same thing without hybrid. The subject vehicles

00:59:28.179 --> 00:59:29.860
are equipped with second row seats that use a

00:59:29.860 --> 00:59:35.159
criner. Back seats, they're going to unlock and

00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:37.519
the back angle adjustment and won't come into

00:59:37.519 --> 00:59:40.840
place and force balance some of the spring. The

00:59:40.840 --> 00:59:43.500
back seats are just. installed incorrectly and

00:59:43.500 --> 00:59:45.099
they're going to cause more injury in a crash

00:59:45.099 --> 00:59:47.840
how's that there you go that's a really short

00:59:47.840 --> 00:59:49.940
way of putting it yeah i mean i think this is

00:59:49.940 --> 00:59:52.920
the one where um this is the one where the seat

00:59:52.920 --> 00:59:56.400
backs didn't lock properly exactly the locking

00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:58.760
spring and return spring the door and design

00:59:58.760 --> 01:00:01.619
yeah and as we've talked about many times here

01:00:01.619 --> 01:00:04.820
you know having instability or a failed lock

01:00:04.820 --> 01:00:07.460
or any kind of problem on your seat in a crash

01:00:07.460 --> 01:00:11.539
is Very, very bad thing to have since a lot of

01:00:11.539 --> 01:00:15.039
the safety that's provided to your body in a

01:00:15.039 --> 01:00:19.440
crash is designed starting with the seat. So

01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:22.460
it's incredibly important that seats be, you

01:00:22.460 --> 01:00:25.760
know, be in the position they're expected to

01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:28.099
be in a crash and not in an unlocked position.

01:00:28.500 --> 01:00:34.360
Next up, Kia 14 ,870 vehicles, the 2027 Telluride

01:00:34.360 --> 01:00:40.170
2026 K4. This is an improperly manufactured rear

01:00:40.170 --> 01:00:43.409
center seatbelt anchor buckle. There's difficulty

01:00:43.409 --> 01:00:47.050
buckling the seatbelt anchor buckle. I assume

01:00:47.050 --> 01:00:50.309
that's just clicking in the seatbelt into the

01:00:50.309 --> 01:00:54.349
receptacle, right? I think it may be also in

01:00:54.349 --> 01:00:56.570
these situations we see people who think that

01:00:56.570 --> 01:00:59.409
the vehicle is buckled and it turns out that

01:00:59.409 --> 01:01:03.250
it's not. Oh, they don't hear the click? Yeah,

01:01:03.269 --> 01:01:04.809
there's a couple things that could be going on

01:01:04.809 --> 01:01:07.619
here. It's not, you know, it's... It says it

01:01:07.619 --> 01:01:11.739
may not latch properly, which kind of implies

01:01:11.739 --> 01:01:16.260
that the passenger or driver thinks they've latched

01:01:16.260 --> 01:01:20.179
the seatbelt buckle properly, but it is actually

01:01:20.179 --> 01:01:23.719
not latched. And then a collision, it comes free

01:01:23.719 --> 01:01:27.619
and does not protect the occupant. Oh, no. Last

01:01:27.619 --> 01:01:32.739
one, Volkswagen 48 ,165 vehicles, the 2025 or

01:01:32.739 --> 01:01:36.519
2026 Volkswagen Jetta. The transmission ground

01:01:36.519 --> 01:01:38.679
wire may not have been connected during production.

01:01:38.820 --> 01:01:40.659
If the ground wire is not connected, there'll

01:01:40.659 --> 01:01:44.059
be an open electrical circuit. It makes me remember

01:01:44.059 --> 01:01:47.320
as a child, we like had to test nine volt batteries.

01:01:47.639 --> 01:01:51.179
It's still good. You'd lick it. Yeah, you put

01:01:51.179 --> 01:01:53.139
it on your tongue and you felt that little buzz.

01:01:53.360 --> 01:01:56.079
That was good. That is an uncomfortable feeling.

01:01:56.159 --> 01:01:58.880
However, not nearly as uncomfortable as having

01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:02.179
your vehicle catch on fire because of the fact

01:02:02.179 --> 01:02:05.179
that they didn't ground the transmission's electrical

01:02:05.179 --> 01:02:08.860
system. It looks like they're going to be fixing

01:02:08.860 --> 01:02:12.139
this in early May, so owners can look out for

01:02:12.139 --> 01:02:14.360
that. Okay, and with that, we'd like to give

01:02:14.360 --> 01:02:16.820
a big round of applause to Ford for not making

01:02:16.820 --> 01:02:18.679
it into the recalls this week. Good job, Ford.

01:02:20.269 --> 01:02:22.489
Hey, I also want to mention for anybody who thinks

01:02:22.489 --> 01:02:24.889
I may have some particular competence that for

01:02:24.889 --> 01:02:28.889
a short time, while I was in college, they were

01:02:28.889 --> 01:02:32.309
selling 100 -volt DC batteries that you could

01:02:32.309 --> 01:02:35.670
put into a lantern. And I'd done the 9 -volt

01:02:35.670 --> 01:02:37.809
trick. So I thought, gee, I wonder what would

01:02:37.809 --> 01:02:41.070
happen with the 100 -volt battery. But I'm smart,

01:02:41.250 --> 01:02:44.539
right? So I didn't use my tongue. Mainly because

01:02:44.539 --> 01:02:47.219
the terminal's too far apart. But I have big

01:02:47.219 --> 01:02:50.260
hands, and so I could lick my finger and my thumb

01:02:50.260 --> 01:02:53.300
and short out the battery terminals to see if

01:02:53.300 --> 01:02:58.099
it really was 100 volts. It was. It was a memorable

01:02:58.099 --> 01:03:05.679
moment. Anyhow. That is stupid. Yeah, yeah. Like

01:03:05.679 --> 01:03:08.380
I said, you know. I just wanted to calibrate

01:03:08.380 --> 01:03:10.760
people's understanding of my intellectual capability

01:03:10.760 --> 01:03:16.860
here. Did your fingernails melt off or blacken?

01:03:17.619 --> 01:03:22.400
No. How much acid were you on? Very, very, very

01:03:22.400 --> 01:03:27.360
beef shock. But actually, Thomas Edison got into

01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:32.079
a ruckus with Tesla in Washington House way back

01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:36.559
when because he was a... advocate for dc power

01:03:36.559 --> 01:03:39.440
right and he thought ac power would kill everybody

01:03:39.440 --> 01:03:44.199
um so it was very difficult to kill somebody

01:03:44.199 --> 01:03:46.719
using dc you can give me a hell of a shock but

01:03:46.719 --> 01:03:50.460
difficult to kill somebody so i experimentally

01:03:50.460 --> 01:03:56.289
verified that but uh Yeah, you see, I digress.

01:03:56.409 --> 01:03:59.690
Thank you for listening, folks. Until next week,

01:03:59.710 --> 01:04:02.130
and you can tune into Fred's other podcast, Felonies

01:04:02.130 --> 01:04:06.070
and Fire Story. I don't know. Yeah, human crash

01:04:06.070 --> 01:04:09.010
test dummy, Fred Perkins. Thanks, listeners.

01:04:09.150 --> 01:04:10.670
We'll be back next week. Thanks, everyone. Bye.

01:04:12.429 --> 01:04:16.710
For more information, visit www .autosafety .org.