Welcome to Round Trip Death and Merry Christmas. Today we're going to hear from a woman named Cat.
Because of her near-death experience, she went from atheist to Christian. It's a fascinating story.
But before we do, I'd like to ask a small favor. If you appreciate this show and its message,
please click over to roundtripdeath.com. In the upper right corner of the homepage,
you'll see a little donate button. If you'd like to help us keep the lights on for another season,
click there and be generous. Thank you in advance and now let's hear from Cat.
One of the things that I get asked all the time is, don't all the near-death experiences start
sounding the same? Aren't they all just people go through a tunnel, head to the light, and everything
is bliss? And my answer to that is absolutely not. Every single one is completely different,
including the one that we're going to hear from Cat Dunkel today. Good morning, Cat.
Good morning. Good morning.
And before we start, I love the title of your book. It's called, Is It Safe to Die?
Right, right. Kind of odd, isn't it?
No, I think it's great. It makes me interested. And we'll talk about that as we go, but give us a
little bit of information about you. Where are you from? Tell us about Cat.
Well, Eric, I'm from all over the country. My father worked for the Department of Agriculture
and Government, so he was transferred every two years. And as a kid, that's kind of hard
because you're always going to a different school. The curriculum was always different,
so I kind of grew up very insecure. I don't know if you, maybe the audience, somebody has ever had
to go into a new school where all the kids are staring at you and you're kind of an oddity. And
you know, kids don't like that. I used to drive my son to school and they'd say, mom, don't do
anything with your hair. It was like, you know, you're very self-conscious. And so growing up,
we moved all over the country every two years. So that just, you know, it was very, very difficult
childhood. Also, my father drank an awful lot. I was an alcoholic. My mother was abused by him,
and so were my brothers and my sister and I. And so as a child, that was all normal to me. But as I
got older, I understood we were pretty dysfunctional. Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. That's rough.
Did you, on the lighter side, did you have any favorite places that you lived?
No, I have one I just liked very much. That was in Kansas where, you know, I actually liked the
state of Washington because I love being outside. Yeah, even in the rain, I loved it. And it's a,
you know, pretty moderate climate actually. So even in the rain, it wouldn't be that cold.
But yeah, I think Washington with the water, the lakes and the mountains and the trees and
to be outside was always wonderful. Then we moved from that to Kansas. And in the summertime and
got off the airplane, it was 110, I think, and the humidity was the same. It was horrible. You know,
I thought, well, maybe there's a heat from the airplane or something, but it just got worse.
And there were chiggers in the grass. You couldn't walk in the grass. I don't know, maybe the audience
doesn't know what a chigger is, but it's a little bug that's in the grass. And it was awful. They
didn't have any lakes and water that I was used to. So I didn't like that.
Because of the contrast. And just so you know, we have a lot of listeners in Kansas.
We have a couple of really big pockets of listeners in Kansas. So shout out to our Kansas
listeners and not everybody hates it there, I'm sure.
Well, we're big Kansas City Chief fans, I'll tell you that. So
I love my home. He's a great guy. And, you know, and I have a very dear friend that's from Kansas
and absolutely loves it. So my experience was just so different from what I was used to, I think.
So it wasn't good.
And now you're more of a snowbird living in Washington, but winter's in the desert.
That's right. Yes. The Southern California desert is beautiful.
Okay.
We're fortunate to be able to do that for sure.
Well, before we talk all about your near death experience,
tease it a little bit with how did you come up with this title for your book?
Well, I wrote a book a long time ago, the same, actually, this is a rewrite with a professional
editor this time and, and being able to really tell some things that I was fearful of telling
in the first book, but I just it just happened. I was something I put in my first book. And,
and sometimes I feel for some people that isn't real safe to die. So
because of my experience, so I didn't really know how I came up with it.
So there isn't a simple answer to the question then is it safe to die?
Right.
Oh, okay. Making me a little bit nervous. Well, let's, let's get into it. Let's go back in time.
You grew up in this dysfunctional family, marital problems, etc. What led up to your near death?
Being from that family, I wanted out desperately and jumped into a very bad marriage to an
alcoholic, of course, that seems to happen, I think, with a lot of people that they tend
to follow what they're brought up with. And had two children by the time I was 21 and ended up
with the nervous breakdown and horrible circumstances. And during that time, I had lost
all faith in God. I during my teen years and in this family, I tried desperately to believe in God,
but I just couldn't I'd not there. Nobody could really give me any answers that made sense to me.
It was just just have faith. Well, how do you have? How do you just have faith? I had no idea.
And it was show me how how do I get faithful? And so I went to every church I could possibly
imagine anybody I was I was just right for some cult to pick me up because thankfully that didn't
happen. But it was just a bad time. I just did not believe in God. I'd say I was an agnostic
because I wanted very much to believe in God, but just didn't. So where I was in these circumstances
in Kansas City, I one time my husband was passed out in the bedroom, my two sons were asleep,
little babies. And I walked out the living room looked up at the sky, it was so beautiful. And I
I remember saying just screaming out, God, if you're really there, you just give me one year
to know what it's like to really feel loved. Because I had never felt that feeling of being
loved or loving someone else. And just one year and then just devastate me take everything away,
kill me. I don't care. I just want one year out of life. And I walked away because I do that
wouldn't happen. But it wasn't long after that I packed my sons up into an old beat up car. We
left Kansas City and moved to Seattle where I had some family but that didn't turn out well. And I
ended up in government housing with no food, no money, no furniture. The boys and I would
lay the sleeping bags on the floor. There was a gas deal that heated our unit had a little pilot
light down and we'd pretend that's our campfire. We were camping and we'd run through the house
because he couldn't break anything or and they loved it. We go to the library and get books and
played down by the lake and just life was pretty good just being out of the circumstances that I
had been in first time in my life. I was on my own making my own decisions. So that was all fine.
And I had got a job and we finally put together a little home there and life was good. But the lady
I worked for decided one day that she had just met the man that I should marry and I wasn't really
receptive to that for sure. But I got this phone call from this man named Don and he was so,
I don't know, kind or something I was just drawn to. And 28 days after that phone call we were
married by a justice of the peace, William R. Beamer in Reno, Nevada. And he was incredible,
the most handsome man that I'd ever known in my life and had a good job. He had his own car,
his own house that he was buying. It was just a great, he loved my sons. What more could you ask
for in life? And for the first year that we were married, it was incredible. I would open up the
closet and there'd be china and crystal and things that I never even dreamt of before. I loved my
life. It was just incredible. So you got that year that you wanted of feeling loved, right?
Yes. How old were you at that time? 2023. Okay, still very young, very young. You know,
I married when I was 17 and had my first child at 18 and the next one at 19, almost 20. And yeah,
so that all happened in a very short time. Yeah. Anyway, exactly 28 days we were married
in February 9th, on February 9th. So it was exactly one year we went out to dinner and celebrated
our wonderful anniversary. And Don had bought a tavern a few, about six months prior to that
with a friend of his, he wanted to have his own business. He was in real estate before,
he had a solid job. And I was very leery of this because of the alcohol issues in my family. And,
but I knew it was his dream and I couldn't stop that. But I didn't like it. And anyway,
he said, well, let's just stop by and see how the business is going. And I was upset about that,
but I didn't say anything. And so we stopped by the tavern and walked in and everybody was
gathering around him, congratulating him on his business. And there was a barmaid there that
certainly was obvious. She was just flirting with Don, you know, and I was looking over there and
he'd be fixing her necklace. And then she was flicking her hair at him and just, you know,
so I kept getting angrier and angrier and angrier and angrier and pretty soon I just got up and
ran out the door and just started running. Cause that's what I always did when I got
backed into a corner was just run. And, and anyway, we had our first very, very bad argument
and it had been exactly one year after that, my father dropped dead of a heart attack.
The business that we had was going bankrupt and my son, Mark, my middle son, Mark was hit by a car
and killed. It was a terrible, terrible thing and, and just absolutely broke me into.
So I became very unable to talk to people or smile or do anything because I felt so horribly guilty
and moms aren't supposed to let their children die. And, and I, I just couldn't recover at all
from that. And Don, when I told me you have to get out of the house, we have to move on.
And I was screaming at him, you know, don't tell me to move on. I'll never move on. And I,
I couldn't smile. I couldn't do anything as I had horrible guilt that I had and, and losing Mark,
I just would never get over. And so he insisted that we go out. And so we were kind of arguing
with each other and got out the door and, and arguing a little harder and got into the car.
By then I'm pretty much yelling at him. He started driving down the street and I'm,
you know, he says, you just got to move on. And I just came across the seats with my hands,
just smashing into his face and angry, just taking all my pain and frustration out on him. And,
and he took his arm and just swung at me wildly. He was trying to drive the car and pulling it
over to the side of the road, swung his arm over and hit me really hard in the side and the back.
And I fell over to my side of the car and I was so stunned. And I just told him, take me home,
take me home. And he did. And I did what I always did. I grabbed the car keys and stuck out the
door and took off in the car because I was so frustrated and angry. And I knew that our marriage
would never work out. I was never good enough for him and all these horrible things going through
my head. And we went, I was driving down the road. I felt this intense pain inside of me. I thought,
well, is my heart breaking or is there something wrong with me or what? And I pulled over and got
out of the car. It was pouring down rain and cars are going by and honking and splashing me. And,
and I was just doubled over in pain. And I thought, I've got to get home. I've got to get home. And
I got in behind the wheel of the car and I don't even know how I got home. But by the time I did,
my clothes were all undone. I was soaking wet in the rain and I was barely crawling up the driveway
to the door. And Don was standing there again, of course, so furious with me. And I told him,
I said, I tried to get by him. I said, I need to call an ambulance or something really wrong with
me. And so he softened at that point and said, you know, well, if you're that bad, I'll drive
you to the hospital, which he did. And they did not, we're talking back in the late sixties and
they didn't have MRIs and CAT scans and the equipment to diagnose anything at that point.
So when we got there, they noticed a bruise on my back and asked me how I got the bruise. And
I didn't want to tell them because I didn't want them to think Don was a wife beater. You know,
I had, I'd come at him and he was just defending himself from an out of control person. And
but so I told them, I didn't know, but they said, well, you seem to have some kind of massive
internal bleeding because your blood pressure is dropping and this is a blood test for showing
something and we have to take you into surgery. We have to find out why. And so that happened so
fast. I was like, well, who are you? And, you know, I don't know anything about you. I was fearful.
But I didn't have much time and Don leaned over the gurney and kissed me goodbye and told me that
he loved me. And so into surgery we went and I remember them putting the mask over my face
and thinking I should, I should be going under and I could see the doctors around me. I could see
everything. Then all of a sudden it just got black, but I was still awake and I just, it was like
everything had just blacked out and I couldn't breathe. And I remember the horrible panic as my,
my arms were, were secured because of the surgery and I couldn't grab the mask off, but it was like
being drowned. I was underwater and desperately trying to breathe and, and could not. And so when
I did kind of try to breathe in, nothing would happen. This is a horrible panic. I just can't
tell you how horrible that was. And then I just kind of came out of that darkness into a space,
like a tunnel somewhat. And I, I, I could, I didn't have to breathe anymore. The panic was still there,
but I, I did, I realized I don't have to breathe. I'm okay. I don't need to breathe.
And then I started moving in this tunnel and, and it was odd. My feeling was that what's happening,
what's happening. And I saw down below me that Don and my other two sons were, were
around a lamp pole and they were crying because I was dead. And I was trying to tell them, no,
I'm not dead. I'm just fine. I'm okay. And then this feeling came, they're going to be just fine.
And I moved on and I saw four people off to the left and they were dressed in street clothes,
normal people weren't angels or anything, but they had these very concerned looks on their faces.
So I'm thinking after, you know, looking into near death experiences, possibly could have been
distant relatives or somebody that knew me, but I didn't recognize them. And I passed by them.
And all I can remember is that why are they still concerned? Why are they looking at me like that?
And, and then as I moved on through this tunnel, it wasn't definitely like a tunnel. I, I felt this
or this loud, horrible noise, like a freight train just right through my, my head. And then this
pulling and burning of a rope through the middle of me, like a hundred million miles an hour.
And the thought came to me, there is no God. And all of a sudden that all that happened, the noise
and the pulling through the middle and it stopped. And I knew, I knew that God existed. I knew that
as much as I know that my hand is in front of my face right now, or that I'm looking at you, nobody
would be able to come in this room and say, that hand isn't there or that man isn't there that
you're talking with. Nobody could convince me of that. I know I'm seeing that. So that's how much
I knew that I knew that I knew God does exist. And it was this incredible feeling of, of just
this overwhelming peace and happiness and euphoria or anything word that you could possibly use
right now. So, I mean, it was very strange, very strange.
Yeah. So just so I understand. So you went from this scary train noise and rope around you.
Was there some kind of a transition? And then all of a sudden you knew about God, how fill in some
detail there. Yeah, it just, it happened with the loud noise and the pulling through the middle of
me. And I'm thinking it was almost as if God was pulling out of me all of the hatred and the
anger and all of the things that were, were driving me. It's almost like it was being
cleansed of something. And then it just stopped. And then I felt this overwhelming
peace, this overwhelming euphoria, just the most incredible feeling I've ever had.
And I couldn't explain it because there aren't words to explain that. I mean, you could,
the Bible talks about the peace of passes, all understanding. Well, it definitely was that I,
I didn't understand it. I couldn't explain it, but it was incredible. And then that same noise came
and the same pulling through the middle of me and thought came to me, there is no heaven.
And this stopped again. And I saw this brilliance, just like a sunburst brilliance. And I was moving
towards it. And I knew that I was going to heaven and the excitement, you know, it was like I could
leave my husband who I adored by children who I would die for in a second, and I was like,
I would leave them to go and stay in this place to be where I'm at right now and to go into heaven.
I would leave them like that. That was how strong this was. And then it just, that just stopped.
And the floor fell out from beneath me and I fell into what I know was hell. I felt the total
separation from anything or anyone, and especially God. And I was screaming. I felt the pain of
burning, but no flames, because that would have given light. This was the blackest black of
anything. It was total nothingness. I feel like it's the black hole in space, maybe, I don't know.
But I was falling into this and I was feeling this pain and I was hearing the screams of others.
I knew that I knew that I knew that no one could save me from this place, that I was going to fall
and burn. And I knew that I had sent myself there. I didn't blame God. You know, why did you let this
happen to me or anything? I knew that I had caused this. I had blasphemed God. I had, when Mark died
and people tried to tell me about Jesus or God, I would scream at them, I'll tell you about your Jesus.
Your Jesus kills little children. And I would be so angry. And so, you know, I knew, and I used to
call God Ralph. I used to joke about it. And I was just, all these horrible things that I turned
against God and wanted no part of anything to do with God. So, I was falling into this horror,
knowing it would be for eternity, that nobody even knew I existed. But I didn't know I existed.
Nobody knew I existed. And even if they did, how could they save me? How could they throw a rope
into here? There's no way I'm never going to be saved. I'm never going to hit bottom. I can't
commit suicide even. I can't make it stop. I'm going to fall and burn in this eternity, forever
and ever and ever. And I knew that. And then all of a sudden I was screaming, God, please forgive
me. I know that you're real. I know you exist. Please forgive me. And take me from this place.
But I knew it was not going to happen. I knew that. But then it just stopped. And I started
going backwards, backwards, backwards through the tunnel again. And I came to a point where I knew
I was going to enter back into life. And I was clinging to this feeling of being with God and
wanting that so desperately. But knowing I was going to go back and I heard an audible voice say,
bring people to me. And then I came back through this, some kind of pulling through the opening.
And I was in the operating room just screaming, and God is real, God is real, and into recovery.
And so that was the experience I had. And it changed my life. I went into that surgery,
a confirmed atheist, and I came out a Bible believing, thumping on fire for God person,
and have been for over 50 years. And I have never stopped one day of my life doing what I can do
to bring people to the Lord, because that was what he asked me to do. And that's been my one thing.
I think it's so fascinating that you kept being hit with opposites, right, with these horrible
things, and then wonderful things, and then back to horrible things. Can you talk about that
contrast a little bit? Well, it was wonderful things. And then, then the horrible thing,
and then being taken back away from that. I mean, can you even imagine how I felt coming
out of that place? And after knowing that I would be there for eternity, I just I tell you, you know,
so it's driven me that is driven me. We're like I say over these 50 years, and anybody who knows
me, I mean, I'm a normal person. You know, I say bad words when I miss a golf shot, just like anybody
else does, you know, and, and, you know, I, I'm not a big drinker, but I have a glass of wine once in
a while, you know, I'm normal person. And, but my life 100% any friend of mine, I've got lots of
friends, I'm a very friendly person, knows what I stand for, and who I am. And that's a complete
believer. And I'm the one they usually call and something goes wrong, or somebody dies or whatever,
because that's the one hope they can cling to, is that their loved one is, is there somewhere.
And I believe in my heart, I don't think God sends anybody to hell. First of all, I think the blame
should go to where it belongs. And that's either to us or evil. I believe that we do this to
ourselves. That's the feeling I had. But I believe that God gives everybody this opportunity during
the dying process to come to him. I don't believe I was special in any way or had I know I wasn't,
but I believe that we all have this opportunity. There is true evil in this world. I think we see
it every day. But we think to ourselves, even the worst person, what I want Charles Manson to go to
hell, not really, you know, not really, does any human being deserve that, that horror, but maybe
so. I don't know. I'm not going to judge anybody. But so I do believe that during the dying process,
because some people have horrible lives like I did, that turn them against God, or horrible
circumstances like losing a child or a husband or a wife or whatever. And, and they're angry,
they're angry because they think God could have stopped this, but he can't. He would be going
against everything that he stands for and the free will that he's given mankind. And I think that
he's given mankind and I don't want to preach to you, but you know, I just want people to know
that there is hope. I mean, you may have had a loved one that was not a believer,
maybe blasphemed God as well, but during the dying process, change their minds real quick. So
that's my, my belief. That seems like the forgiveness came really quickly and really
easily. Does that seem fair? Yeah. So, I mean, I was there long enough to make a true believer
out of me, but, uh, um, yes, yes, it did come quickly. And the whole experience, I guess,
maybe it was pretty quick. I don't know. I don't know time-wise.
Let me ask you this since you have children and oh boy, can I ask you to put yourself in the shoes
of God for a second? Does that sound too blasphemous or whatever? No, no, no, no, no.
I mean, you have children, if they had done something horrible to you, how quickly would
you forgive them if they wanted to come back and make their peace with you, with their mother?
Yeah, no, yeah. I mean, there's, there is no time limit there. They know they could never do anything
bad enough that that would turn me away from them. And is that what you learned about God doing the
same thing? Well, yes and no, but if, if, if, if knowing that forgiving my children would harm them,
if knowing that forgiving my children would just, would dispute who I was as God, then I couldn't,
I couldn't, there's, there's only a limit to how, what, what, a guy can't go against his word. He
can't go against what he is. And, and I know it breaks his heart. I know that he does everything
in, in creation to stop it. How would you give your son to die on a cross, a horrible death that
Jesus Christ did to save mankind? You know, so I, I think God has done all he can do and I would do
all I could for my children for sure. But if I knew it was going to harm them or war against the
creation, I, I, I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. No one could. So how else did this experience
change you? How, how did it change me? Yeah. I mean, you've given us kind of an idea. What,
what else did it, did it do to help you be different, better or anything else? I met peace.
All right. Great peace. Even the world is a messed up place and it's not easy. It's not easy. Life is
never easy, but I, it changed me in a lot of ways. One way was that I went to sleep one night. I had
a dream about starting a business. I did, I had a high school education. I wanted to go to college,
but my father said I wasn't college material and wouldn't help me. And, and I didn't go to college.
So I, I, it, I was bounced from one school to another. So my knowledge and my intellect has
been whatever I could absorb from books or self-taught. I wasn't that brilliant person,
but I went to bed, had this dream and I started a business back in the sixties
of customer satisfaction. I was in an automotive industry in my job and I saw customers coming
into the dealership that were good people. And I saw they were being mistreated or lied to or
cheated. And I didn't like that. So I just started calling them up one day and saying,
how was your experience at XYZ Chevrolet? And did I get an earful? And we're talking about the
sixties and car dealerships were a bad business at that time. They were, you know, out to get
what they could get any way they could get it. And, but the owners were not necessarily like that.
So I took this information to the owner of the car dealership. I said, you know, here's what your
customers think about you. And he just went crazy. He made me a manager and did all this stuff,
you know? And so I took what was happening there and I thought this is good for every car dealership.
And this was all came to me in a dream, showed me how to do this, start this business. So I went out
and started knocking on doors. I can make some phone calls for you and tell you what your
customers think of you. And here's what customers from XYZ Chevrolet thought about them. And they
just went crazy. They couldn't sign up fast enough. And this business grew so fast and we became very
successful. All the money problems we had in the past all went away. And in the business,
and the business is still thriving today under my son. I walked away from it one day and took up
golf, but he has done a great job with it and became very wealthy himself through it. So God
blessed us, I mean, in incredible ways. And so, yes, I mean, I had that ability to do what I did
then. I know that came from God. Like I say, I wasn't a well-educated person, but I was able
to talk to very well-educated people on their level and make a success of myself. So,
and I had feelings for people that I never had before. I couldn't talk to somebody that's
in horrible pain and not shut, I don't get scared or I want to do what I can to say the word that
maybe gives them some hope or maybe gives them some peace. And so that desire inside of me to
do that, that's why I do these podcasts or why I wrote my book and was a hundred percent, no,
I don't know if you've ever written a book, but no author makes money. Trust me, it's expensive to
try to find editors and do all the things you have to do to make a book good. And if you're famous,
maybe you might make a dollar or two, but it's not something you do. And people always think that,
oh, you just want to sell books. Well, I don't, I don't care if you read it or not, but it will
help you. So the ability has come about by the grace of God. So I'd have changed a lot.
Yeah. Well, I appreciate that very much for, for those people out there that are listening that
haven't decided yet. Oh, is there really an afterlife? Should I be afraid of death? What
do you have to say to them? Well, is it safe to die? Yeah. You haven't really answered that yet.
You know, I, I, um, I don't know. I would say this, what have you got to lose? You know, I,
I don't know. There's probably a lot of people that like me tried to believe in God and just
couldn't, couldn't find any answers that really made sense to them. And I understand that, but
I'm not talking church. I'm talking relationship with God. If you could just say to God, I want
to know you. I want to give my life to you. I want you to take over. I'm not doing such a good job
here, or I'm frustrated, or I don't understand. Please help me God to, to know you and lay your
life down and give it to him in a sincere way and just see what happens. I mean, what have you got
to lose? You know, and, uh, I would encourage people to start searching for answers. And I want
people to be careful because there's a lot of garbage going on out there that people believe
in that, that will lead you in the wrong direction because you're not God. I mean, some people
believe that we have that ability ourselves to become gods and there's one God, there's one God
and God is, is, is spirit like we are. I mean, I felt my spirit leave my body through my near death
experience. I felt it come back when I was at that point and I heard that voice. They bring people to
me. I felt this, the actual will to live or call it a spirit, enter back into my body, a physical,
actual thing. And then I went through waking up in the, in the surgery room. So we are, I read,
we are human beings. Yes. Flesh and blood, but we also have a spirit who's really who we are.
That's who we are. This, this, this body's going to turn dude to dust. We know that or many people
have drowned or they, whatever way they have died in that dying process, there comes a point where
the spirit, you, you, who you are actually leaves your body. And that's some scientists have called
it your consciousness, who you are, who you're, it's not your brain activity. They can actually
prove. Dr. Bruce Grayson studied me for over 20 years. He's a scientist who just devoted his entire
career to near death experiences and, and has studied thousands and thousands of them,
but there's an actual consciousness or belief or thing, person that comes out of you. And that's
you, your spirit. That's what lives on in eternity. Is there any other kind of experience that could
have helped you believe in God versus what happened to you? Cause not everybody's going to go through
this and fast. Most people aren't. I hope not. I mean, it was a great thing because I don't know
why. I don't know why some go through this and others don't. I know, but like I said, I do believe
everybody goes through this during the dying process. I firmly believe that because God,
the Bible says that God's no respecter of people, you know, what he doesn't choose one over another.
So if this experience was something that several of us have had and it leads us to God,
which in most cases it does, it's, we're not special, you know, why would we be chosen to
have this happen? So my belief is it does happen to everybody during the dying process.
I think that does that answer your question? Yes, it does. Thank you. Going back to the,
your experience itself, you mentioned being in a tunnel. A lot of the time it was just dark,
the times that it was not dark and that you felt like you were in a heavenly place.
Do you remember seeing or hearing specifically anything, or was this all just a feeling that came
to you? Well, there was that loud noise that preceded every, everything, the three things.
It was that horrendous noise. I liken it to a freight train, you know, standing right next to
a freight train going by is what it's, what I would say it sounded like. It was that loud.
And so there was that noise and what that represents, I, I, I think that's the, that's
the speculation, you know, my feeling, maybe that God was just tearing that hatred and that anger
and the garbage out of me through that, that I don't know. Something was being, something was
being torn out of me. Something was being pushed out of me in a way through that pulling through
the middle of me, through my heart, just pulling that out. Interesting. And you did mention seeing
four people that you didn't recognize. Yeah. And you've speculated who they are, maybe their
ancestors or something, but you don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I, I, my son had died.
I didn't see him, you know, uh, and I'm not sure that I would have wanted to, because I would not
have wanted to disrupt where he was. I wouldn't, you know, knowing where he is, I wouldn't have
wanted to disrupt where he was. I wouldn't, you know, knowing where he is, knowing where he is,
I mean, how could he see me? How could I see him and ever, ever live normally ever again?
So yeah. Um, so I didn't know these people and, uh, and a lot of other people do see
other people, you know, loved ones that they've lost, but I know where he is. I know that my life
here is a flash in the time of eternity. Now you've had a lot of time to think about all of this. So
I'm going to ask for what may be a little speculation on your part, but some people
have near death experiences, have a choice on whether they want to come back or not. It sounds
like you didn't, you just were back in your body. What, first of all, why do you think you didn't
have a choice and what do you think the choice might've been if you had one? Well, it definitely
would have stayed. I definitely 100% because like I said earlier, I would have left my, my children,
my husband to stay there. I knew that, that this was for eternity and that my life going back would
be just a short time. I, I, my personal self wanted to stay and my choice, I guess would have
been to stay because I knew that my husband and my other two sons would be okay. I was given that
reassurance when I, they were the first thing I saw as I went into this experience where they were
standing down by the lamp post and they were crying and that reassurance they're going to be okay
came to me and it was so strong. I knew they would be just fine. They would move on through life and
be just fine. So yes, I would have stayed. Can't remember what the first part of the question was.
Oh, well, why do you think you didn't have a choice? And I think maybe you've kind of explained that.
Yeah, I, I don't, I don't know. I, I, uh, I don't know. I say the choice would have been to stay,
but I don't remember any question or, or that that was even, God wanted me to bring people to him.
It was just given to me that I was to go back and I was to try to bring people to him, which was like,
oh my gosh, when I did come to my senses, when I got out of the hospital finally,
because it was a long rehabilitation, I was very, very ill. Anyway, I thought, how do you bring
people to God? What am I going to do? You know, I was not, I was not brought up in a Christian home
or a Buddhist home or whatever faith people have. I was not brought up in, in, in religion or faith
or anything else. So how am I going to bring people to God? I, you know, so I would tell them
about my experience and I didn't bring anybody to God. I scared them half to death, you know? So
it was like, I don't know how to do this. God help me, you know, but that, that morphed into,
to being able to comfortably let people know who I am first, and then maybe telling them my experience
or, or doing what I can do. So I learned over time what to do. Have you found that people are more
accepting and believing when you explain it to them now than many years ago, when it first happened,
when near death experiences, I'm putting this in quotes, as it's been termed, hadn't even been,
you know, wasn't even a thing that people talked about, didn't have that name yet.
Right, right. Yes, I, it was, I remember my grandmother calling me up, you know,
it was, I told everybody about it. Wasn't something that I hid for sure. And I had changed. I, you
know, I, when I got well enough, I went to Catholic church, which I'm not a Catholic now,
but I went there. It was the only thing I had ever known from my mother every single day, you know,
they had a six o'clock mass. I was there at six o'clock in the morning, whether I was sometimes
the only person in the church and, and I would pray it. And then I started going to this evangelical
church where I, because I wanted to learn about God and I didn't learn anything in the Catholic
church. I mean, it was a structured thing, but, and I could have soft feelings for God, but I didn't
learn anything. So I started learning about the Bible and about Jesus Christ and all these things.
I could not get enough. Well, before we wrap up, what's a message of hope you can give people
that are listening today? How can you make their life better today? That you have a choice in this
life. I mean, we, none of us get through this easily and we all die, you know, and we all come
to an end and it's a good thing to, to be prepared for that, to understand it, to do the best you can.
And you can do that by simply praying, by simply asking God to help you and, and to become that
believer. And it's the process. I mean, it's not something, sometimes the light bulb just comes on
for people, but other times it doesn't. And so I would ask you or challenge you to take my words
here today. Just lay your life down, give it to the Lord and, and just see what happens and try to
follow that. I mean, you're going to see the light as well as I or anybody else. If you just lay down
your human objection to God and, and wholly give yourself to him and just see what happens. I
believe that he'll guide you as he did me. Thank you. I appreciate your words today. Thanks a lot,
Kat. Well, you're welcome. Thanks for asking me.
Thank you again for listening and just a gentle reminder about donating to the show at roundtripdeath.com.
Until then, Merry Christmas and I wish you everything good that you're looking for in this life and the next.