WEBVTT 00:00:04.809 --> 00:00:09.029 In this episode, imagine a pastor, now hospital 00:00:09.029 --> 00:00:12.630 chaplain, dealing with cancer four times and 00:00:12.630 --> 00:00:15.769 having multiple near -death experiences. What 00:00:15.769 --> 00:00:19.129 would he experience in his NDEs and what advice 00:00:19.129 --> 00:00:21.969 does he have for other clergy? What can we learn 00:00:21.969 --> 00:00:24.589 from these experiences and how can a belief in 00:00:24.589 --> 00:00:28.250 the afterlife provide hope for your life right 00:00:28.250 --> 00:00:38.899 now? It's time for Round Trip Death. I'd like 00:00:38.899 --> 00:00:41.640 to welcome our very special guest today, David 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:45.520 McGinley, coming to us from, oh man, long ways 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:47.100 away, but I'm going to let you talk about that, 00:00:47.100 --> 00:00:49.820 David. How are you today? I'm doing really well. 00:00:49.820 --> 00:00:53.280 Great to see you. It's great to see you. Tell 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:56.460 everybody where you live and what you do. So 00:00:56.460 --> 00:01:00.299 I'm in Halifax, Nova Scotia. So eastern seaboard 00:01:00.299 --> 00:01:04.079 and then some out into the ocean. And it's a 00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:08.150 cold winter's night here. I am what's called 00:01:08.150 --> 00:01:12.290 a psychospiritual specialist. So if you can imagine 00:01:12.290 --> 00:01:18.569 sort of a psychologist who has deep awareness 00:01:18.569 --> 00:01:21.409 of the spiritual dimensions or the existential 00:01:21.409 --> 00:01:24.750 dimensions of identity and consciousness and 00:01:24.750 --> 00:01:28.950 of reality itself, that's what I do. And I support 00:01:28.950 --> 00:01:32.709 people facing the crises that life will inevitably 00:01:32.709 --> 00:01:36.260 bring. I worked for 25 years in the hospital. 00:01:36.540 --> 00:01:39.159 I was a chaplain in palliative and cancer and 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:43.120 intensive care. I have supported thousands of 00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:46.879 people on the edge of immortality and just learned 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:49.019 and grown so much from everything they've taught 00:01:49.019 --> 00:01:52.799 me. And now I have this private practice and 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:56.500 I'm an author and I produce some online content 00:01:56.500 --> 00:02:00.159 and I like to relax with my cat in the sunshine 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:02.480 and have a nice cup of coffee in the morning 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:06.799 and walk in this beautiful city, drink in the 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:11.240 sea air and the sunshine. Even on a cold day, 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.300 it's a beautiful thing. I remember, don't you 00:02:14.300 --> 00:02:18.360 have some pastoral duties as well? Well, I did. 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:20.860 I had a church for 10 years, a Maluthrin pastor. 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:25.439 Then I had a parish in a little fishing village 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:29.099 called Lunenberg, Nova Scotia, and I was there 00:02:29.099 --> 00:02:34.949 for about a year, and really enjoyed. It's the 00:02:34.949 --> 00:02:38.449 oldest Lutheran congregation in Canada, and beautiful 00:02:38.449 --> 00:02:42.550 people. That's fantastic. And speaking of that, 00:02:43.430 --> 00:02:46.610 it wasn't until I saw you face to face today, 00:02:46.650 --> 00:02:48.789 because the other day we just spoke on the phone, 00:02:49.810 --> 00:02:52.949 face to face I figured out where I remembered 00:02:52.949 --> 00:02:55.770 you from. And correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't 00:02:55.770 --> 00:02:58.750 you on a panel discussion at Ions in Phoenix? 00:02:59.320 --> 00:03:01.919 Yes, I've been a member of the International 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:04.080 Association for Near Death Studies, and I was 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:07.520 on a clergy panel in Phoenix, and we were talking 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:12.819 about how, ironically, clergy, who should be 00:03:12.819 --> 00:03:14.919 experts in near -death experiences and the nature 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:18.439 of the afterlife, are very unfamiliar with the 00:03:18.439 --> 00:03:20.740 prevalence of the phenomena. One of the things 00:03:20.740 --> 00:03:24.060 I like to do is conduct workshops for clergy 00:03:24.060 --> 00:03:28.330 and raise awareness of how very real the hope 00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:31.889 is that we proclaim every Sunday, but how broad 00:03:31.889 --> 00:03:36.770 it is, far beyond the box of any one faith tradition. 00:03:37.870 --> 00:03:41.849 Well, I was in the audience that day. And if 00:03:41.849 --> 00:03:45.030 I remember right, you were hilarious. Now, you 00:03:45.030 --> 00:03:48.110 seem very calm and mild -mannered here, just 00:03:48.110 --> 00:03:51.349 the two of us, but in front of hundreds of people, 00:03:51.349 --> 00:03:54.530 you were pretty funny. Well, you know, the adrenaline 00:03:54.530 --> 00:03:59.879 gets going. Right? I vividly remember that presentation. 00:04:00.219 --> 00:04:04.639 I had a lot of fun at that. There's a lot that 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:08.080 we can laugh at about ourselves, both as individuals 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:12.860 and as clergy and as church. And that was a delightful 00:04:12.860 --> 00:04:16.259 experience. I'm glad you also laughed along with 00:04:16.259 --> 00:04:19.939 us. Well, I wish I could say I remembered a lot 00:04:19.939 --> 00:04:22.819 of the things that came out of your mouth. My 00:04:22.819 --> 00:04:26.279 memory isn't that good, but That makes two of 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:30.259 us. But I do remember laughing and it being a 00:04:30.259 --> 00:04:33.240 really good panel discussion that day. And I 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:36.300 love having clergy on from time to time and getting 00:04:36.300 --> 00:04:40.540 a perspective from different viewpoints. And 00:04:40.540 --> 00:04:42.519 also, and we'll do this a little bit later after 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:45.139 we hear about your near -death experiences, but 00:04:45.139 --> 00:04:47.660 also getting a perspective that you can share 00:04:47.660 --> 00:04:51.000 to help other clergy who may be listening. A 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:53.860 lot of them need help. No offense to people out 00:04:53.860 --> 00:04:56.889 there, but Like you said, it's something that 00:04:56.889 --> 00:05:00.350 a lot of clergy are really behind on and don't 00:05:00.350 --> 00:05:03.569 know that much about. I had an opportunity to 00:05:03.569 --> 00:05:08.470 be on a podcast a little while ago for, I think 00:05:08.470 --> 00:05:11.290 it was called the Planters podcast. So it was 00:05:11.290 --> 00:05:15.629 all about people planting these individual churches 00:05:15.629 --> 00:05:19.029 all over. And it was fascinating speaking with 00:05:19.029 --> 00:05:22.410 them and got a lot of good feedback there. But 00:05:22.410 --> 00:05:25.839 anyway, Enough of me talking. I want to jump 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:29.399 into... I'm just looking at my notes here. You're 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:33.000 a cancer survivor, which also led to some amazing 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:35.680 experiences. Why don't you jump into that story? 00:05:36.459 --> 00:05:39.500 Yeah, yeah. As a chaplain, I know cancer from 00:05:39.500 --> 00:05:43.019 both sides of the bed. I've had cancer four times, 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:46.680 so I'm really lucky to be alive. And it's not 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.600 a kind of cancer that most people have. You know, 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:53.129 cancer... We think of it as this vicious disease 00:05:53.129 --> 00:05:57.550 that spreads out or metastasizes and compromises 00:05:57.550 --> 00:06:02.089 the different organs in your metabolism. My cancer 00:06:02.089 --> 00:06:08.029 is called perangaloma. This is sort of a gelatinous 00:06:08.029 --> 00:06:12.709 tumor that grows. 90 % of them grow on the adrenal 00:06:12.709 --> 00:06:16.170 gland and they're called pheochromocytoma. And 00:06:16.170 --> 00:06:18.810 when they're elsewhere in their body, they're 00:06:18.810 --> 00:06:23.709 called perangalomas. Mine I had when I was 17, 00:06:23.829 --> 00:06:29.970 then 27, then 35, then 37. So this tumor makes 00:06:29.970 --> 00:06:33.970 a Molotov cocktail of chemicals, dopamine, norepinephrine, 00:06:34.230 --> 00:06:36.910 adrenaline, components of adrenaline, something 00:06:36.910 --> 00:06:40.990 called catecholamines. And these are very concentrated, 00:06:41.050 --> 00:06:45.750 so when your adrenal gland turns on, it triggers 00:06:45.750 --> 00:06:49.050 the tumor to explode. Most people die in about 00:06:49.050 --> 00:06:54.279 a minute. Smaller explosions feel like you got 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:57.720 hit in the gut, your heart is racing, you're 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:01.360 sweating, and you collapse. I have collapsed. 00:07:01.620 --> 00:07:03.819 I don't know how many times because of the tumors. 00:07:04.459 --> 00:07:10.160 Now the first one was in my bladder. So I was 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:13.560 lucky. The metabolites flushed out in my urine. 00:07:13.660 --> 00:07:17.269 I didn't feel the anxiety and the... the fight 00:07:17.269 --> 00:07:19.930 -or -flight response from these massive levels 00:07:19.930 --> 00:07:24.589 of dopamine and other metabolites. The second 00:07:24.589 --> 00:07:27.689 one, 10 years later, was on my femoral artery. 00:07:28.689 --> 00:07:33.329 That's not good. When the tumor blows, remember 00:07:33.329 --> 00:07:35.970 it's because your adrenal gland released some 00:07:35.970 --> 00:07:40.009 adrenaline. Now, what's the most anxiety -provoking 00:07:40.009 --> 00:07:43.329 things that you could possibly do? Public speaking. 00:07:43.689 --> 00:07:46.050 Well, I was a student minister getting into the 00:07:46.050 --> 00:07:49.129 pulpit every Sunday. That wasn't a good combination. 00:07:50.129 --> 00:07:54.350 A lot of times I thought that I couldn't be a 00:07:54.350 --> 00:07:57.370 pastor, I couldn't do the job because I kept 00:07:57.370 --> 00:08:00.550 having these what felt like anxiety attacks. 00:08:01.529 --> 00:08:05.769 And then one day I was doing a hospital chapel 00:08:05.769 --> 00:08:11.310 service and the tumor blew and I went down. Now 00:08:11.310 --> 00:08:13.470 a hospital chapel, that's a good place to die. 00:08:13.689 --> 00:08:17.009 You got medical, you got spiritual, right? And 00:08:17.009 --> 00:08:18.990 that's where I had my near -death experience. 00:08:19.769 --> 00:08:22.829 I tell you, life -changing. Now, these tumors, 00:08:23.170 --> 00:08:26.569 you can't hit them with chemo or radiation because 00:08:26.569 --> 00:08:30.129 they grow so slowly and they have very thick 00:08:30.129 --> 00:08:32.850 cell walls, so they're resilient. You've got 00:08:32.850 --> 00:08:35.730 to go in there surgically and extract them, but 00:08:35.730 --> 00:08:38.950 then the surgical team are acting like a bomb 00:08:38.950 --> 00:08:41.169 squad. As soon as you manipulate the tumor, it's 00:08:41.169 --> 00:08:44.230 going to blow. So a lot of people die on the 00:08:44.230 --> 00:08:47.529 table. They have to lower your blood pressure 00:08:47.529 --> 00:08:52.110 to about 50 over 30 and hold it there through 00:08:52.110 --> 00:08:54.509 the operation. That's barely enough to keep your 00:08:54.509 --> 00:08:58.789 blood vessels puffed up, you know, when not that 00:08:58.789 --> 00:09:02.649 they're going to collapse. But then they hit 00:09:02.649 --> 00:09:05.389 the tumor and they pull it out and it releases 00:09:05.389 --> 00:09:08.870 chemicals. Your blood pressure skyrockets and 00:09:08.870 --> 00:09:10.799 that's giving you more headroom. because they 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:13.100 kept it so low. And then they give you other 00:09:13.100 --> 00:09:15.259 medications to bring that down again. It's sort 00:09:15.259 --> 00:09:17.519 of a roller coaster for a few minutes. And if 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:21.460 you survive, okay, it's good. It just sounds 00:09:21.460 --> 00:09:24.399 terrifying knowing that you have these time bombs 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:29.259 inside yourself. Yeah, because even intense emotion 00:09:29.259 --> 00:09:34.059 is dangerous, right? Excitement, joy, anger, 00:09:34.740 --> 00:09:37.059 anything that gets the adrenaline really going 00:09:37.059 --> 00:09:42.519 to feel can be fatal. when you have a periganglioma. 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:46.360 So I'm very lucky to be alive and I credit that 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:51.940 to my doctors and of course to God and the angels 00:09:51.940 --> 00:09:55.360 and the unseen accompanied guardians and guides 00:09:55.360 --> 00:10:01.019 and I must have been sent back for a reason and 00:10:01.019 --> 00:10:05.299 I now 30 years later have an idea of what that 00:10:05.299 --> 00:10:10.009 reason was. Tell us later. Let's say that. Yeah, 00:10:10.029 --> 00:10:12.370 keep us in suspense. I'm going to make a note 00:10:12.370 --> 00:10:14.809 here so I don't forget to ask you about that. 00:10:15.129 --> 00:10:17.110 But let's get into the near -death experience 00:10:17.110 --> 00:10:22.590 itself. What happened? Yeah, so I didn't have 00:10:22.590 --> 00:10:26.490 the tunnel and I didn't see my body from above. 00:10:26.769 --> 00:10:29.470 That's common, but not in the majority of cases. 00:10:29.870 --> 00:10:33.470 I was suddenly on a grassy hill. I passed out 00:10:33.470 --> 00:10:36.830 just at the beginning of my sermon. I crashed 00:10:36.830 --> 00:10:39.779 and I hit the floor, but I'm gone. and I'm on 00:10:39.779 --> 00:10:42.659 this grassy hill. One of the things that strikes 00:10:42.659 --> 00:10:48.740 me is that it was marked by such an utter sense 00:10:48.740 --> 00:10:54.120 of relaxation and a sense of being home. You 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:57.460 hear that a lot from near -death experiencers. 00:10:58.340 --> 00:11:01.480 Absolutely. It's one of the very common things. 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:05.139 And I think, personally, that that refers to 00:11:05.139 --> 00:11:09.580 an existential integration. In my near -death 00:11:09.580 --> 00:11:12.360 experience, there wasn't any aspect of myself 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:14.860 that I was suppressing. There wasn't a subconscious, 00:11:15.019 --> 00:11:17.620 there wasn't an ego. I didn't have a fractured 00:11:17.620 --> 00:11:22.159 framework of identity. It was integrated. So, 00:11:22.259 --> 00:11:25.500 yeah, you're at home in yourself because now 00:11:25.500 --> 00:11:29.899 you know and you are yourself as you essentially 00:11:29.899 --> 00:11:34.980 are. Not the story we tell ourselves about ourselves, 00:11:34.980 --> 00:11:39.529 which is the ego. and not the critical voice, 00:11:39.950 --> 00:11:43.490 not any sense of limitation. There are no words 00:11:43.490 --> 00:11:47.909 for how utterly complete you realize that you 00:11:47.909 --> 00:11:51.289 are. Can I ask a question right there? Not to 00:11:51.289 --> 00:11:53.450 second -guess anything you're saying whatsoever, 00:11:54.210 --> 00:11:57.029 but some people tell me that feeling of home 00:11:57.029 --> 00:12:01.629 is more like, this is where I came from. Okay, 00:12:01.690 --> 00:12:04.830 like a heavenly place they came from, now they're 00:12:04.830 --> 00:12:07.429 back there. You described it very differently. 00:12:08.070 --> 00:12:11.429 I supplement what they said with my perspective, 00:12:11.490 --> 00:12:16.169 because I also felt utterly familiar with the 00:12:16.169 --> 00:12:20.789 place. I knew it. And when I was there, I was 00:12:20.789 --> 00:12:23.529 jumping up and down like a kid at Christmas, 00:12:24.230 --> 00:12:27.149 overjoyed, saying, I'm home, I'm home, I'm home. 00:12:27.529 --> 00:12:31.750 Right? It's like I knew I had come back. to the 00:12:31.750 --> 00:12:38.009 place I belong. It's home. It's the inner and 00:12:38.009 --> 00:12:40.389 the outer, and there is no difference between 00:12:40.389 --> 00:12:43.590 the two. And I felt completely connected to everything, 00:12:43.750 --> 00:12:46.970 every blade of grass on that hill. And there 00:12:46.970 --> 00:12:49.809 was a tree at the top of the hill. There are 00:12:49.809 --> 00:12:52.710 no other trees. And I felt fully connected to 00:12:52.710 --> 00:12:55.909 that tree. And I could sense how that tree was... 00:12:55.850 --> 00:12:59.929 pulling in the nutrients from the soil and the 00:12:59.929 --> 00:13:02.669 energy from the air. And I thought one with the 00:13:02.669 --> 00:13:07.750 air and the sky. But with it was this complete 00:13:07.750 --> 00:13:13.590 sense of final excitement and relaxation into 00:13:13.590 --> 00:13:17.789 such authenticity that I had never experienced 00:13:17.789 --> 00:13:27.009 before on Earth or in this form. Oh, every time 00:13:27.009 --> 00:13:30.309 I talk about it, I feel homesick. Give me more 00:13:30.309 --> 00:13:33.129 detail. You were jumping up and down. Jumping 00:13:33.129 --> 00:13:36.190 up and down. There was someone there. There was 00:13:36.190 --> 00:13:40.169 a celestial entity. It was masculine. He felt 00:13:40.169 --> 00:13:43.210 like my best friend. I felt like I had known 00:13:43.210 --> 00:13:47.250 him all of my life. It was great. And he simply 00:13:47.250 --> 00:13:50.850 said, it's great to see you, David. And I said, 00:13:50.889 --> 00:13:53.529 it's so great to be here. Come on, let's run 00:13:53.529 --> 00:13:57.190 to the tree. I'm like a kid with his best friend. 00:13:58.169 --> 00:14:01.009 And he said, no, you can't go up there. That's 00:14:01.009 --> 00:14:02.830 common, right? In near -death experiences, there's 00:14:02.830 --> 00:14:05.850 often a boundary or point at which you can't 00:14:05.850 --> 00:14:08.690 go beyond. I knew if I got to that tree, I'd 00:14:08.690 --> 00:14:11.730 never come back here. I was pulled to that tree. 00:14:12.429 --> 00:14:14.690 But he said, let's talk. Things are going really 00:14:14.690 --> 00:14:17.509 well, David. And we had this conversation that 00:14:17.509 --> 00:14:22.350 felt so casual, so relaxed, so intimate. And 00:14:22.350 --> 00:14:26.000 yet I also could sense from him that this was 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:29.399 an entity of absolute love and compassion, but 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:34.720 also authority and insight and wisdom. I was 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:39.419 humbled in his presence and I was as relaxed 00:14:39.419 --> 00:14:43.879 as I would be with a childhood friend. We talked 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:48.220 about my life and Well, I can't remember all 00:14:48.220 --> 00:14:50.919 the details of that conversation. It's basically, 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:53.480 things are going really well. You're where you 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:56.980 should be. You have a lot more work to do. You 00:14:56.980 --> 00:14:59.100 can't stay here. It's really important that you 00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:03.360 go back. And we're walking on the hill in the 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.159 grass. And I said, that's ridiculous. Why would 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:09.419 I go back? I'm finally here. I'm home. That this 00:15:09.419 --> 00:15:12.480 is everything I've longed for. Come on, let's 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:17.870 go to the tree. There was a power in his presence. 00:15:19.570 --> 00:15:22.370 I felt the significance of what he was saying. 00:15:22.490 --> 00:15:26.129 You have more work to do. Look back now, and 00:15:26.129 --> 00:15:28.529 I think that work is related, of course, to the 00:15:28.529 --> 00:15:30.649 relationships and the conversations I would have, 00:15:30.850 --> 00:15:34.090 because we're all here walking each other home. 00:15:35.289 --> 00:15:38.009 We're all here to help each other wake up to 00:15:38.009 --> 00:15:40.679 what we essentially and fundamentally are. But 00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:43.940 I also knew that it meant I had a lot of maturing 00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:48.379 to do. I had a lot of growing up to do. I was 00:15:48.379 --> 00:15:52.519 young. I was 27. I still didn't know how to love 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:58.059 really well and live really well. He said, you 00:15:58.059 --> 00:16:02.919 need to go back, but we will be with you. Plural. 00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:05.639 That was interesting. When I realized that I 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:08.039 wasn't going to be able to stay there, I said, 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:13.299 Please, you can't send me back. I just want to 00:16:13.299 --> 00:16:16.519 say, don't send me back to that. Because this 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:22.679 feels very fractured. This feels awkward and 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:26.379 clumsy and dense and inefficient, this state 00:16:26.379 --> 00:16:29.299 of existence compared to that. This is like a 00:16:29.299 --> 00:16:31.820 two -dimensional cardboard cutout. I was more 00:16:31.820 --> 00:16:34.399 alive there. That's something that stuck with 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:37.279 me as I supported hundreds and Hundreds, I've 00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:39.500 been at the bedside of so many as they've died. 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:44.120 And I know for them, it'll be waking up. And 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.980 the gravity of grief will be left with here, 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:51.580 with us. So part of me is a little bit envious. 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:55.500 And sometimes I say in my closing prayer for 00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:58.379 them, you know, thank you for the gift of your 00:16:58.379 --> 00:17:00.600 life and your love, and pray that you release 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.759 your body without... You know, release your body 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:06.720 with gratitude, release your life without regret, 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:09.859 and go on the wings of wonder to what's awaiting 00:17:09.859 --> 00:17:14.099 you, and we'll see you on the other side. You 00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:16.839 know, watch over your family if you can. Don't 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:21.200 freak them out. Behave yourself. Behave yourself. 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:24.099 Is that something that you believe that they 00:17:24.099 --> 00:17:27.700 can do? Sort of like the ghosts, you know, the 00:17:27.700 --> 00:17:30.640 scary ghosts we think of? Is that a thing? Well, 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:35.039 I tend to think the ghosts are a complex remnant 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:38.400 of consciousness amplified by our own consciousness. 00:17:39.900 --> 00:17:42.099 I think there are different forms of spirit. 00:17:42.579 --> 00:17:44.539 I think the afterlife is a lot more complicated 00:17:44.539 --> 00:17:47.960 than we realize. This episode of Round Trip Death 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.299 is brought to you by Squarespace. Have you been 00:17:51.299 --> 00:17:54.039 kicking around a business idea and now need a 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:56.759 website to make it a reality? Have you ever thought 00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.279 about creating a site for your family or neighborhood, 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:02.380 but didn't know where to get started? Squarespace 00:18:02.380 --> 00:18:05.460 makes it easy and inexpensive for you to build 00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:08.039 your own home on the internet. 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I'll put a link and the code 00:18:49.470 --> 00:18:52.230 down in the show notes to make it easy. So take 00:18:52.230 --> 00:18:56.210 a minute right now go to squarespace .com forward 00:18:56.210 --> 00:19:00.450 slash roundtrip that's squarespace .com slash 00:19:00.450 --> 00:19:03.509 roundtrip and get started on your own website. 00:19:03.869 --> 00:19:08.720 It's easy and today It's free. And with the billions 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:11.339 of life forms here on earth, why would there 00:19:11.339 --> 00:19:14.700 not be even more after the physical form drops 00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:19.599 away? So I think it's a rich and amazing universe. 00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:22.880 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I've got to 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.319 ask you, this entity that was with you and that 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:30.200 you were conversing with, do you have any feeling 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:35.099 for who that was? I have wondered if it was Jesus. 00:19:35.660 --> 00:19:41.539 It certainly would be him in his compassion and 00:19:41.539 --> 00:19:47.180 love and presence, but it could equally have 00:19:47.180 --> 00:19:51.720 been an angel with that same characteristic of 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:56.640 consciousness. I do feel that I had known him 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.400 and he had known me from the beginning, so maybe 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:05.039 a guardian angel. I still talk to him or them. 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:08.880 you know, throughout my incarnate form, my journey 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:11.920 here. I've often asked them for help in my work 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:15.599 at the hospital with the dying. Because, you 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:18.299 know, to be honest, just because you have a near 00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:20.500 -death experience, it doesn't upgrade all aspects 00:20:20.500 --> 00:20:23.640 of your ego or your consciousness. I am still 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.500 human and in many ways as ridiculous as ever. 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:30.220 So, if left to my own devices, I'm probably going 00:20:30.220 --> 00:20:33.690 to mess things up. Always asking for help. Well, 00:20:33.690 --> 00:20:36.089 especially when you're doing something that important 00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:42.390 like helping someone on their deathbed Wow Yeah, 00:20:42.390 --> 00:20:44.349 we would need help because how do you know what 00:20:44.349 --> 00:20:48.230 to say? And that was a beautiful thing that you 00:20:48.230 --> 00:20:51.089 told us a few minutes ago But you know, maybe 00:20:51.089 --> 00:20:56.170 they need specific advice or I don't know I Wouldn't 00:20:56.170 --> 00:21:00.119 know what to say well I stop worrying about what 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:02.819 to say, and I focus more on the quality of my 00:21:02.819 --> 00:21:05.920 presence. Don't worry about the words that will 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:09.180 come out of your mouth. The Bible talks about 00:21:09.180 --> 00:21:11.500 Jesus is reassuring his disciples, don't worry 00:21:11.500 --> 00:21:14.200 about what you're going to say. Relax. Why do 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:18.200 you worry about anything? Be open. Be open so 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:20.259 that spirit can flow through. Get out of your 00:21:20.259 --> 00:21:24.339 own way. I'm still working on that homework. 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:28.309 It takes a certain kind of faith to just Sit 00:21:28.309 --> 00:21:31.289 back and and wait for that kind of inspiration 00:21:31.289 --> 00:21:35.049 to come You also mentioned the term we and I 00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:38.089 know you've thought about this a lot, too So 00:21:38.089 --> 00:21:41.269 any idea of who the we was that one being you 00:21:41.269 --> 00:21:45.049 were with and who else? Yeah, I think that I 00:21:45.049 --> 00:21:48.289 think every one of us has a team on the other 00:21:48.289 --> 00:21:53.809 side Not a single angel or entity. I think Some 00:21:53.809 --> 00:21:57.069 of us need a bigger support team or committee 00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:01.400 Because we're a harder work in progress. Yeah. 00:22:02.220 --> 00:22:07.759 The nature of consciousness itself is that there 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:10.759 is no such thing in the end as an individual 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:13.920 consciousness. It's all a collective form of 00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:18.039 one consciousness. Because, well, we're getting 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:22.539 into some theology here. If God is, and God is 00:22:22.539 --> 00:22:26.200 infinite, indivisible, ultimate consciousness 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:29.980 from which reality emanates, which Saint Paul 00:22:29.980 --> 00:22:33.839 talks about in Corinthians. That means that there 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:38.920 can be no separate objects or entities in the 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:42.420 universe. All of them are emanations from the 00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:46.680 one consciousness. And by that, every moment 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:50.660 of our existence is dependent upon this reality 00:22:50.660 --> 00:22:56.339 of non -dual consciousness. So, Here I am, a 00:22:56.339 --> 00:23:01.119 temporary form that, even after I die, will continue 00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:05.740 in its own perceived unique individuation so 00:23:05.740 --> 00:23:09.660 that it may participate in the mosaic of creative 00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:13.759 enterprises of the divine. But ultimately it's 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:17.500 only one. I think of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane 00:23:17.500 --> 00:23:19.740 praying, may they be one as you and I are one, 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:23.240 you and me us and them. I think there's a mystical 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.799 foundation of the ground of being underneath 00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:31.039 all of this. It's quite perplexing, wondrous, 00:23:31.500 --> 00:23:34.140 and the poverty of my words is really not going 00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:39.900 to be adequate to explore it. And so many experiencers, 00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:43.640 as you know, talk about that feeling of oneness. 00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:47.059 And I often ask them to explain it and it's very 00:23:47.059 --> 00:23:49.900 difficult to explain. Most people just can't. 00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:53.259 They're just like, I just felt one with you and 00:23:53.259 --> 00:23:56.839 me and the universe and God and everything, that 00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:00.700 we're all connected in some way. Okay, I want 00:24:00.700 --> 00:24:03.220 to get back. Was there more to your experience 00:24:03.220 --> 00:24:06.740 than this and how did it end? I pleaded once 00:24:06.740 --> 00:24:12.559 again to not be sent back and he turned to me 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:16.079 with an even deeper gravity of presence, and 00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:18.339 he put his hand on my shoulder, and this love 00:24:18.339 --> 00:24:23.160 and compassion poured into me, complete understanding. 00:24:23.380 --> 00:24:27.279 And he just said, don't worry, we'll be with 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:31.140 you, we'll see you, we'll see you later. And 00:24:31.140 --> 00:24:34.519 boom, I was back. So that's the hardest part. 00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:37.980 Yeah, I've heard it explained many ways. Some 00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:41.890 people say it feels like being slammed. back 00:24:41.890 --> 00:24:45.650 in this body, they don't fit into... How did 00:24:45.650 --> 00:24:47.890 you feel? What was it like or do you remember? 00:24:48.690 --> 00:24:51.549 Oh, I felt my consciousness being compressed. 00:24:52.210 --> 00:24:57.569 Yeah. I felt the density of this level of reality 00:24:57.569 --> 00:25:01.529 compared to that. I felt the utter inadequacy 00:25:01.529 --> 00:25:04.589 of my thoughts, which must progress one after 00:25:04.589 --> 00:25:09.309 the other as my words do, and how utterly inadequate 00:25:09.309 --> 00:25:13.900 they are. to express the deep nature of what 00:25:13.900 --> 00:25:18.019 is fundamentally real. Everything becomes distorted, 00:25:18.819 --> 00:25:21.319 right, through perception and time and space 00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:25.740 and body and cognition and language and flesh 00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:30.640 and bone. And what I had become, as well as what 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:35.019 I had experienced, receded from me, just descended, 00:25:35.180 --> 00:25:37.869 like I dropped it into a... the depths of the 00:25:37.869 --> 00:25:40.190 ocean and I'm watching it disappear down into 00:25:40.190 --> 00:25:43.789 the dark. There was no way I could keep it at 00:25:43.789 --> 00:25:47.309 the level of my egoic functioning and my perceived 00:25:47.309 --> 00:25:51.089 separate identity. It just sank down and I felt 00:25:51.089 --> 00:25:54.230 myself reaching out and grasping for it and it 00:25:54.230 --> 00:26:00.930 was gone. And it left me simply feeling homesick 00:26:00.930 --> 00:26:04.369 and embarrassed that I had passed out and scared 00:26:04.369 --> 00:26:07.789 everyone. Again, right? Because I had passed 00:26:07.789 --> 00:26:11.029 out before. The doctors and the nurses, they 00:26:11.029 --> 00:26:13.329 took my vitals. They couldn't find anything wrong. 00:26:13.430 --> 00:26:16.109 They gave me some orange juice. And every time 00:26:16.109 --> 00:26:20.029 I tell this story, you know, I feel it. I went 00:26:20.029 --> 00:26:23.390 home. I didn't tell my congregation. I didn't 00:26:23.390 --> 00:26:27.410 tell anyone. Because this was over 30 years ago. 00:26:27.509 --> 00:26:29.390 I didn't know about near -death experiences. 00:26:30.170 --> 00:26:32.569 So what do you do when your consciousness... 00:26:32.859 --> 00:26:35.119 moves from this state, and then you're expanded 00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:38.579 into one so full and connected, and then you're 00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:40.920 compressed back into this. You crawl into bed 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:45.019 and you grieve. You don't know why. And you shove 00:26:45.019 --> 00:26:49.039 it down, and it took me years to integrate it. 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:51.680 And then when I started hearing about others 00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:56.779 who've had them, the memory and the feeling surfaced. 00:26:56.859 --> 00:26:59.339 As much as you're trying to dismiss it as a dream 00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:04.970 or a hallucination, or a distortion, you can't 00:27:04.970 --> 00:27:08.170 shake it. It's unlike any dream or memory you've 00:27:08.170 --> 00:27:12.589 ever had. It has its hold on you. You are apprehended 00:27:12.589 --> 00:27:16.309 and it won't let you go. And this homesickness, 00:27:16.509 --> 00:27:20.809 this love, this complete and utter, inexplainable 00:27:20.809 --> 00:27:26.630 knowing of God and Spirit and continued existence, 00:27:27.490 --> 00:27:31.900 it's wonderful and it's lonely. I love that term, 00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:35.680 homesickness. Yeah, if it felt so much like home, 00:27:35.740 --> 00:27:39.180 you miss it. That's the grieving that you're 00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:42.920 talking about. Totally makes sense. And yet I 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:46.640 know that I'm here for a reason. Let's jump to 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:49.059 that. You mentioned that earlier. You learned 00:27:49.059 --> 00:27:50.799 about your mission in life. What are you here 00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:54.559 for? I'm here to shine, in my own particular 00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:57.619 way, and help others to do that too. Love is 00:27:57.619 --> 00:27:59.880 your spiritual practice, because God is love. 00:28:00.460 --> 00:28:02.900 And that means love isn't an emotion. Love is 00:28:02.900 --> 00:28:04.819 the highest state of consciousness, completely 00:28:04.819 --> 00:28:07.900 integrated and connected. That's why whatever 00:28:07.900 --> 00:28:10.200 you do to the least of these, you do to Him. 00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:14.640 So how I do that, or how I was led to do that, 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:17.380 was not something quite of my planning. It came 00:28:17.380 --> 00:28:21.759 upon me. You know, I went back to my seminary 00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:24.859 after my internship. I finished my degree. I 00:28:24.859 --> 00:28:29.549 was placed in a church. On the first day in my 00:28:29.549 --> 00:28:32.269 new parish, a man died, and there I was sitting 00:28:32.269 --> 00:28:36.190 at his side, feeling oddly comfortable. I didn't 00:28:36.190 --> 00:28:39.509 know that was a prelude or a forewarning of what 00:28:39.509 --> 00:28:42.130 I would become. I had a church for ten years, 00:28:42.230 --> 00:28:45.250 bumbling along, not very good at church administration, 00:28:45.369 --> 00:28:48.369 but loving to be with the people and share the 00:28:48.369 --> 00:28:51.650 stories. Then an opportunity came up for hospital 00:28:51.650 --> 00:28:54.910 chaplaincy, and I just felt compelled, and I 00:28:54.910 --> 00:28:59.430 jumped for it. 25 years later, it's been the 00:28:59.430 --> 00:29:02.269 richest vocation I could ever have imagined. 00:29:03.009 --> 00:29:05.329 But how do you go through helping people that 00:29:05.329 --> 00:29:09.210 are on their deathbed and not come away just, 00:29:09.210 --> 00:29:12.269 oh, wow, just depressed every day after doing 00:29:12.269 --> 00:29:15.930 that? Well, there's a tension at play because 00:29:15.930 --> 00:29:19.890 it's what I call emotional cholesterol. It builds 00:29:19.890 --> 00:29:23.170 when you are continually exposed to suffering. 00:29:23.900 --> 00:29:26.220 without relief between the cases. There's no 00:29:26.220 --> 00:29:29.700 way to process it between the cases. So yes, 00:29:29.700 --> 00:29:33.539 eventually that destabilizes your ability to 00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:37.140 function, literally. I went on sabbatical for 00:29:37.140 --> 00:29:40.180 a year because I'd written a book and there's 00:29:40.180 --> 00:29:42.839 the book, Beyond Surviving. And this talks about 00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:45.740 my four rounds with cancer and patient stories 00:29:45.740 --> 00:29:49.900 of cancer and how to engage the crisis to deepen 00:29:49.900 --> 00:29:54.000 your love and connect to that spiritual foundation. 00:29:54.619 --> 00:29:56.400 We'll put a link to that in the show notes if 00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:58.119 people want to find it. You have another book 00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:00.660 too. Go ahead and mention it now. And the other 00:30:00.660 --> 00:30:03.099 book is, I think it shows up backwards on your 00:30:03.099 --> 00:30:07.339 thing, but Early Exits. Yeah. So this is a lot 00:30:07.339 --> 00:30:10.220 thicker. This one is pretty heavy. It's about 00:30:10.220 --> 00:30:14.000 euthanasia, which is legal in Canada. And when 00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:16.880 that was brought in 10 years ago, it fundamentally 00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:19.000 changed the nature of palliative care and the 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:22.480 nature of my work. And while on one level, Many 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.059 people said it's a kind and compassionate thing 00:30:25.059 --> 00:30:27.900 to do when people are facing unbearable suffering. 00:30:28.299 --> 00:30:31.660 On another level, I found it utterly an impoverished 00:30:31.660 --> 00:30:34.799 response to suffering. The efficient management 00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.980 of death through a simple injection. It turns 00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:40.759 out that the vast majority of people are requesting 00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:43.759 it because of spiritual suffering or existential 00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:47.680 distress, not because of physical pain. Yes, 00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:52.200 there are. those who have terrible physical suffering, 00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:56.619 but that can be managed through proper medication, 00:30:56.940 --> 00:30:59.819 which may require palliative sedation. A lot 00:30:59.819 --> 00:31:01.619 of people are scared of that. They don't want 00:31:01.619 --> 00:31:03.380 to be floating in limbo, or they don't want to 00:31:03.380 --> 00:31:05.980 put their family through that. People are unaware 00:31:05.980 --> 00:31:09.160 of the architecture, how the architecture of 00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:12.319 consciousness and identity is deconstructed through 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:16.079 that period of dying, and how this is an opening 00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:21.700 to your Your spiritual identities, near -and 00:31:21.700 --> 00:31:23.960 -death awareness, mystical states of consciousness 00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:26.359 near the end of life, are incredibly common. 00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:30.180 But with euthanasia, we turn you off before you 00:31:30.180 --> 00:31:33.559 reach that stage. And I'm even bold to say I 00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:36.640 feel it's a medical procedure being used to treat 00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:38.779 what is predominantly a spiritual condition. 00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:42.900 So you're against euthanasia. Yeah. Oh yeah. 00:31:43.380 --> 00:31:46.839 I think that the appropriate response is proper 00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:49.640 pain management. deep compassion, the community 00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:53.980 to rally, and for that process of telling your 00:31:53.980 --> 00:31:57.859 story, expressing your fear, putting what terrifies 00:31:57.859 --> 00:32:02.079 you out in front with a professional, with someone 00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:06.819 who's able to help you unpack that. And talking 00:32:06.819 --> 00:32:09.240 about near -death experiences is part of it, 00:32:09.339 --> 00:32:12.880 because these are also so common. One in ten 00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:14.559 who have a brush with death will have a near 00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:17.519 -death experience. One in five. who have a cardiac 00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:21.380 event, will have a near -death experience. Independent 00:32:21.380 --> 00:32:25.559 of belief, culture, age, education, it's the 00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:28.839 greatest gift that lies hidden in palliative 00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:31.779 care. It's exciting to share this with doctors 00:32:31.779 --> 00:32:35.119 and nurses. I presented a grand rounds at the 00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:38.000 hospital on near -death experiences. It turned 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.839 out to be the highest attended and the highest 00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:44.359 rated grand rounds they've ever had. People want 00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:48.559 to know. Anyway, What does working with the dying 00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:52.619 do to you? It deepens your humanity. It clarifies 00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:54.839 your principles. It amplifies the gift of an 00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:58.819 ordinary day. And when you take care of yourself, 00:32:59.420 --> 00:33:03.960 exercise, healthy eating, watch your bad habits, 00:33:04.579 --> 00:33:08.200 get plenty of sunshine, meditate, contemplate, 00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:13.220 connect, then it quiets the noise down. It certainly 00:33:13.220 --> 00:33:16.500 changes... your perspective on the insanity of 00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:20.819 our world. It calibrates you to compassion. Which 00:33:20.819 --> 00:33:25.000 brings peace. You seem to be someone at peace. 00:33:25.339 --> 00:33:28.420 And doing this kind of service, I can see why. 00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:32.400 Yeah, I'm not consistent with it. We're human, 00:33:32.859 --> 00:33:37.880 okay. And still very much a clown. But that's 00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:40.319 okay. My wife says my ridiculousness is part 00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:43.609 of the charm, so... Let's hope she's honest about 00:33:43.609 --> 00:33:47.390 that. Let's hope that attitude never changes. 00:33:47.789 --> 00:33:50.390 All right, let's shift gears and talk about advice 00:33:50.390 --> 00:33:53.569 to other clergy for a minute. Where would you 00:33:53.569 --> 00:33:57.769 even start? First, let me just say that they're 00:33:57.769 --> 00:34:02.430 hungry for it. The appetite for hope is immense 00:34:02.430 --> 00:34:05.690 among the clergy, because the hope we proclaim 00:34:05.690 --> 00:34:08.670 of the resurrection still predominantly tends 00:34:08.670 --> 00:34:12.179 to be abstract. until you talk to someone who's 00:34:12.179 --> 00:34:14.980 experienced, right, touch their doorstep on the 00:34:14.980 --> 00:34:17.699 other side. There's so many who've been temporarily 00:34:17.699 --> 00:34:20.679 transformed. It is utterly staggering. So I bet 00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:24.179 if you're in a church, there are many in your 00:34:24.179 --> 00:34:26.019 congregation who've had these, but they don't 00:34:26.019 --> 00:34:29.019 talk about it because the church often criticizes, 00:34:29.219 --> 00:34:32.019 people have been rejected, people have been dismissed, 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:34.940 because the leaders didn't know how to integrate 00:34:34.940 --> 00:34:38.670 it. They weren't aware of it. I did a presentation 00:34:38.670 --> 00:34:43.050 to our Lutheran clergy in Eastern Canada and 00:34:43.050 --> 00:34:47.170 all of Ontario. There was a lot there, and the 00:34:47.170 --> 00:34:49.590 bishops were there, and the Anglican bishop was 00:34:49.590 --> 00:34:53.230 there, and they were enthusiastic and excited. 00:34:53.789 --> 00:34:55.849 I renewed, for some of them, renewed their hope. 00:34:56.349 --> 00:34:58.929 But let's acknowledge the theological tensions. 00:34:59.750 --> 00:35:04.070 It challenges any exclusive claims that a church 00:35:04.070 --> 00:35:08.769 might have upon Jesus. as the only way to God, 00:35:09.090 --> 00:35:11.429 because near -death experiences are universal. 00:35:12.150 --> 00:35:15.150 So that's going to threaten some theological 00:35:15.150 --> 00:35:18.750 constructs and doctrine. But it actually doesn't 00:35:18.750 --> 00:35:22.550 compromise the centrality of Jesus in our salvation 00:35:22.550 --> 00:35:25.590 story. It can change the meaning of the word 00:35:25.590 --> 00:35:28.309 salvation, which actually means wholeness and 00:35:28.309 --> 00:35:31.449 to be complete. It doesn't actually mean life 00:35:31.449 --> 00:35:35.550 after death. And it shifts the focus of the Church's 00:35:35.550 --> 00:35:38.670 work from getting you to heaven, if you say this 00:35:38.670 --> 00:35:42.409 certain prayer, to now bring the Kingdom of God 00:35:42.409 --> 00:35:45.429 here to earth. That's what it's really about, 00:35:45.829 --> 00:35:48.309 in how we treat and relate to each other. It's 00:35:48.309 --> 00:35:52.349 a very incarnate faith. I would encourage clergy 00:35:52.349 --> 00:35:55.309 to go to the International Association for Near 00:35:55.309 --> 00:35:59.389 Death Studies website, and they have online discussion 00:35:59.389 --> 00:36:02.820 groups. There's one for interfaith clergy, there's 00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:05.880 one for Christian clergy, and it's a little advertisement. 00:36:06.139 --> 00:36:09.280 I am the guy who facilitates that. I think there's 00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:12.059 a Jewish one, too, if I remember right. Yeah. 00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:14.480 Yeah, there's a Jewish one. Think of it this 00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:17.619 way. If God is love, then again, love is your 00:36:17.619 --> 00:36:21.599 spiritual practice. And whatever belief system 00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:25.619 and doctrine you hold, even if it's pretty loctite 00:36:25.619 --> 00:36:30.829 and sound, it's going to fall far short. of the 00:36:30.829 --> 00:36:33.269 mystery and wonder of reality that's out there. 00:36:33.929 --> 00:36:36.670 Because the poverty of our understanding just 00:36:36.670 --> 00:36:42.969 cannot impart this realm. Only love can do so. 00:36:43.389 --> 00:36:45.510 Getting back to what you mentioned a minute ago, 00:36:45.869 --> 00:36:49.389 I don't find near -death experiences in any way 00:36:49.389 --> 00:36:54.230 contrary to basic Christian doctrine from the 00:36:54.230 --> 00:36:57.650 Bible. That's me personally. We also need to 00:36:57.650 --> 00:37:00.360 remember one thing. When we're listening to these 00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:04.440 experiences and that is. That people are getting 00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:10.199 a very small glimpse of something okay in in 00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:15.360 my opinion there on just the front step of the 00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:18.880 porch of heaven or spirit world or whatever we 00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:21.960 want to call it and they're getting a small glimpse 00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:24.940 they're coming back there explaining it to us 00:37:24.940 --> 00:37:28.679 in terms that they understand. which may use 00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:31.579 some terms that we may or may not believe in. 00:37:31.940 --> 00:37:34.920 Some people have a hard time hearing about reincarnation 00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.860 because that doesn't seem to fit with doctrine, 00:37:38.539 --> 00:37:41.219 but people also don't know how to explain it 00:37:41.219 --> 00:37:46.300 any other way. witnessed. And they're not seeing 00:37:46.300 --> 00:37:49.980 the entirety of the plan. They're not seeing 00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:54.099 the entirety of heaven and God's work and all 00:37:54.099 --> 00:37:56.960 of that. And that's not to discount their experiences 00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:01.460 at all, but let's take them for what they are. 00:38:02.340 --> 00:38:05.219 And because they're a little glimpse, I think 00:38:05.219 --> 00:38:08.260 that's why sometimes people think they're contrary 00:38:08.260 --> 00:38:12.710 and they're not. Let's remember that we are inherently 00:38:12.710 --> 00:38:16.550 limited to our vocabulary, our cognitive framework, 00:38:17.650 --> 00:38:21.710 the theological or existential story that we've 00:38:21.710 --> 00:38:23.949 inherited. So when we come back, we're going 00:38:23.949 --> 00:38:27.530 to express it in those terms. Thank you for saying 00:38:27.530 --> 00:38:30.610 that better than I did. I was trying to say what 00:38:30.610 --> 00:38:34.469 you just did. The story of the experience is 00:38:34.469 --> 00:38:37.510 not the experience itself. And the story is going 00:38:37.510 --> 00:38:41.010 to need a vessel. or framework, and we work with 00:38:41.010 --> 00:38:45.250 what we got. So I've been working on integrating 00:38:45.250 --> 00:38:48.030 near -death experiences with Christianity, and 00:38:48.030 --> 00:38:51.389 I also see no contradiction in terms of reincarnation, 00:38:51.570 --> 00:38:55.670 one of the red flags for Christians. My conclusion 00:38:55.670 --> 00:38:57.750 is the afterlife is a lot more complicated than 00:38:57.750 --> 00:39:01.130 I can comprehend. And even the concept of time 00:39:01.130 --> 00:39:04.269 and space, I don't even know what that is. It 00:39:04.269 --> 00:39:06.590 seems to be a product of mind and perception. 00:39:06.969 --> 00:39:13.179 And I trust that, you know, God has it all taken 00:39:13.179 --> 00:39:15.840 care of. I'm not going to worry about if I come 00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:20.360 back. I frankly don't want to. In fact, when 00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:23.699 my mom died, I sat with her and in her silence 00:39:23.699 --> 00:39:27.340 right at the last hours, I said, Mom, I'm going 00:39:27.340 --> 00:39:29.619 to have a heart -to -heart with you. Don't worry 00:39:29.619 --> 00:39:33.019 about us. You've loved us well, and you are well 00:39:33.019 --> 00:39:36.119 loved. I hope you know that. You just go. Dad 00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:38.119 will be there, and he'll greet you with a kiss 00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:41.179 and open arms, and you're going to have a great 00:39:41.179 --> 00:39:45.019 welcoming party. And I said, look, if reincarnation 00:39:45.019 --> 00:39:47.739 is a thing, Mom, I don't want you to even get 00:39:47.739 --> 00:39:50.340 in the lineup. This place is going crazy here. 00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:55.619 And you see, be casual about it. Be serious in 00:39:55.619 --> 00:39:59.639 your love. Be confident in God's grace and wisdom. 00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:03.840 And don't try to figure everything out. Focus 00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:06.760 on your love. You can't do any better than that. 00:40:07.539 --> 00:40:11.059 And we'll all find out one day, won't we? We 00:40:11.059 --> 00:40:12.880 will. All right, I'm going to leave you with 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:16.019 the last word. There is somebody out there listening 00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:20.380 today, and if this is only for one person, that's 00:40:20.380 --> 00:40:23.940 fine. And that is that there's somebody out there 00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:28.159 who is grieving, wondering if a loved one who 00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:33.139 has passed recently really is still alive in 00:40:33.139 --> 00:40:37.239 some way. And is there really an afterlife after 00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:40.139 this? Would you leave us with a nice message 00:40:40.139 --> 00:40:44.260 of hope today? Sure. So for you, right, if you're 00:40:44.260 --> 00:40:47.139 watching us, you're watching this conversation 00:40:47.139 --> 00:40:49.980 and you're grieving, you're struggling. I want 00:40:49.980 --> 00:40:52.820 to say something that's really hard. God's grace 00:40:52.820 --> 00:40:55.820 will protect you from nothing, but it will sustain 00:40:55.820 --> 00:40:59.659 you through everything. God and the angels and 00:40:59.659 --> 00:41:01.739 all the entities will not protect you from the 00:41:01.739 --> 00:41:05.880 homework. the hardships of life. But they walk 00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:11.019 with you. No one is alone. And your grief is 00:41:11.019 --> 00:41:14.099 the price we pay for our love and attachment 00:41:14.099 --> 00:41:17.719 in the human form. And it is a beautiful and 00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:21.800 noble way to be broken. So I encourage you to 00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:26.699 honor your grief, to find ways to say thank you, 00:41:26.940 --> 00:41:32.219 love you, forgive me, and goodbye. see on the 00:41:32.219 --> 00:41:35.320 other side. I want to assure you of that hope. 00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:39.719 You're never alone, and all the love you've ever 00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:42.159 known is going to prepare you for the love to 00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:45.900 come. So trust the journey. Connect with your 00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:49.199 community. Slow down and take care of yourself. 00:41:50.179 --> 00:41:52.260 Thank you, David. Beautifully said. Thanks for 00:41:52.260 --> 00:41:56.079 the conversation. It's an honor. Thanks again 00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:58.639 for listening and sharing this podcast. Don't 00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:00.880 forget to hit the follow or subscribe button 00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:03.320 and sign up for our newsletter at roundtripdeath 00:42:03.320 --> 00:42:06.800 .com. If you want to share your near -death experience 00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:09.119 or if you have questions or comments about the 00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:12.000 show, send an email to eric at roundtripdeath 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.179 .com. Until then, I wish you everything good 00:42:15.179 --> 00:42:17.500 that you're looking for in this life and the 00:42:17.500 --> 00:42:17.860 next.