In this episode, imagine a pastor, now hospital
chaplain, dealing with cancer four times and
having multiple near -death experiences. What
would he experience in his NDEs and what advice
does he have for other clergy? What can we learn
from these experiences and how can a belief in
the afterlife provide hope for your life right
now? It's time for Round Trip Death. I'd like
to welcome our very special guest today, David
McGinley, coming to us from, oh man, long ways
away, but I'm going to let you talk about that,
David. How are you today? I'm doing really well.
Great to see you. It's great to see you. Tell
everybody where you live and what you do. So
I'm in Halifax, Nova Scotia. So eastern seaboard
and then some out into the ocean. And it's a
cold winter's night here. I am what's called
a psychospiritual specialist. So if you can imagine
sort of a psychologist who has deep awareness
of the spiritual dimensions or the existential
dimensions of identity and consciousness and
of reality itself, that's what I do. And I support
people facing the crises that life will inevitably
bring. I worked for 25 years in the hospital.
I was a chaplain in palliative and cancer and
intensive care. I have supported thousands of
people on the edge of immortality and just learned
and grown so much from everything they've taught
me. And now I have this private practice and
I'm an author and I produce some online content
and I like to relax with my cat in the sunshine
and have a nice cup of coffee in the morning
and walk in this beautiful city, drink in the
sea air and the sunshine. Even on a cold day,
it's a beautiful thing. I remember, don't you
have some pastoral duties as well? Well, I did.
I had a church for 10 years, a Maluthrin pastor.
Then I had a parish in a little fishing village
called Lunenberg, Nova Scotia, and I was there
for about a year, and really enjoyed. It's the
oldest Lutheran congregation in Canada, and beautiful
people. That's fantastic. And speaking of that,
it wasn't until I saw you face to face today,
because the other day we just spoke on the phone,
face to face I figured out where I remembered
you from. And correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't
you on a panel discussion at Ions in Phoenix?
Yes, I've been a member of the International
Association for Near Death Studies, and I was
on a clergy panel in Phoenix, and we were talking
about how, ironically, clergy, who should be
experts in near -death experiences and the nature
of the afterlife, are very unfamiliar with the
prevalence of the phenomena. One of the things
I like to do is conduct workshops for clergy
and raise awareness of how very real the hope
is that we proclaim every Sunday, but how broad
it is, far beyond the box of any one faith tradition.
Well, I was in the audience that day. And if
I remember right, you were hilarious. Now, you
seem very calm and mild -mannered here, just
the two of us, but in front of hundreds of people,
you were pretty funny. Well, you know, the adrenaline
gets going. Right? I vividly remember that presentation.
I had a lot of fun at that. There's a lot that
we can laugh at about ourselves, both as individuals
and as clergy and as church. And that was a delightful
experience. I'm glad you also laughed along with
us. Well, I wish I could say I remembered a lot
of the things that came out of your mouth. My
memory isn't that good, but That makes two of
us. But I do remember laughing and it being a
really good panel discussion that day. And I
love having clergy on from time to time and getting
a perspective from different viewpoints. And
also, and we'll do this a little bit later after
we hear about your near -death experiences, but
also getting a perspective that you can share
to help other clergy who may be listening. A
lot of them need help. No offense to people out
there, but Like you said, it's something that
a lot of clergy are really behind on and don't
know that much about. I had an opportunity to
be on a podcast a little while ago for, I think
it was called the Planters podcast. So it was
all about people planting these individual churches
all over. And it was fascinating speaking with
them and got a lot of good feedback there. But
anyway, Enough of me talking. I want to jump
into... I'm just looking at my notes here. You're
a cancer survivor, which also led to some amazing
experiences. Why don't you jump into that story?
Yeah, yeah. As a chaplain, I know cancer from
both sides of the bed. I've had cancer four times,
so I'm really lucky to be alive. And it's not
a kind of cancer that most people have. You know,
cancer... We think of it as this vicious disease
that spreads out or metastasizes and compromises
the different organs in your metabolism. My cancer
is called perangaloma. This is sort of a gelatinous
tumor that grows. 90 % of them grow on the adrenal
gland and they're called pheochromocytoma. And
when they're elsewhere in their body, they're
called perangalomas. Mine I had when I was 17,
then 27, then 35, then 37. So this tumor makes
a Molotov cocktail of chemicals, dopamine, norepinephrine,
adrenaline, components of adrenaline, something
called catecholamines. And these are very concentrated,
so when your adrenal gland turns on, it triggers
the tumor to explode. Most people die in about
a minute. Smaller explosions feel like you got
hit in the gut, your heart is racing, you're
sweating, and you collapse. I have collapsed.
I don't know how many times because of the tumors.
Now the first one was in my bladder. So I was
lucky. The metabolites flushed out in my urine.
I didn't feel the anxiety and the... the fight
-or -flight response from these massive levels
of dopamine and other metabolites. The second
one, 10 years later, was on my femoral artery.
That's not good. When the tumor blows, remember
it's because your adrenal gland released some
adrenaline. Now, what's the most anxiety -provoking
things that you could possibly do? Public speaking.
Well, I was a student minister getting into the
pulpit every Sunday. That wasn't a good combination.
A lot of times I thought that I couldn't be a
pastor, I couldn't do the job because I kept
having these what felt like anxiety attacks.
And then one day I was doing a hospital chapel
service and the tumor blew and I went down. Now
a hospital chapel, that's a good place to die.
You got medical, you got spiritual, right? And
that's where I had my near -death experience.
I tell you, life -changing. Now, these tumors,
you can't hit them with chemo or radiation because
they grow so slowly and they have very thick
cell walls, so they're resilient. You've got
to go in there surgically and extract them, but
then the surgical team are acting like a bomb
squad. As soon as you manipulate the tumor, it's
going to blow. So a lot of people die on the
table. They have to lower your blood pressure
to about 50 over 30 and hold it there through
the operation. That's barely enough to keep your
blood vessels puffed up, you know, when not that
they're going to collapse. But then they hit
the tumor and they pull it out and it releases
chemicals. Your blood pressure skyrockets and
that's giving you more headroom. because they
kept it so low. And then they give you other
medications to bring that down again. It's sort
of a roller coaster for a few minutes. And if
you survive, okay, it's good. It just sounds
terrifying knowing that you have these time bombs
inside yourself. Yeah, because even intense emotion
is dangerous, right? Excitement, joy, anger,
anything that gets the adrenaline really going
to feel can be fatal. when you have a periganglioma.
So I'm very lucky to be alive and I credit that
to my doctors and of course to God and the angels
and the unseen accompanied guardians and guides
and I must have been sent back for a reason and
I now 30 years later have an idea of what that
reason was. Tell us later. Let's say that. Yeah,
keep us in suspense. I'm going to make a note
here so I don't forget to ask you about that.
But let's get into the near -death experience
itself. What happened? Yeah, so I didn't have
the tunnel and I didn't see my body from above.
That's common, but not in the majority of cases.
I was suddenly on a grassy hill. I passed out
just at the beginning of my sermon. I crashed
and I hit the floor, but I'm gone. and I'm on
this grassy hill. One of the things that strikes
me is that it was marked by such an utter sense
of relaxation and a sense of being home. You
hear that a lot from near -death experiencers.
Absolutely. It's one of the very common things.
And I think, personally, that that refers to
an existential integration. In my near -death
experience, there wasn't any aspect of myself
that I was suppressing. There wasn't a subconscious,
there wasn't an ego. I didn't have a fractured
framework of identity. It was integrated. So,
yeah, you're at home in yourself because now
you know and you are yourself as you essentially
are. Not the story we tell ourselves about ourselves,
which is the ego. and not the critical voice,
not any sense of limitation. There are no words
for how utterly complete you realize that you
are. Can I ask a question right there? Not to
second -guess anything you're saying whatsoever,
but some people tell me that feeling of home
is more like, this is where I came from. Okay,
like a heavenly place they came from, now they're
back there. You described it very differently.
I supplement what they said with my perspective,
because I also felt utterly familiar with the
place. I knew it. And when I was there, I was
jumping up and down like a kid at Christmas,
overjoyed, saying, I'm home, I'm home, I'm home.
Right? It's like I knew I had come back. to the
place I belong. It's home. It's the inner and
the outer, and there is no difference between
the two. And I felt completely connected to everything,
every blade of grass on that hill. And there
was a tree at the top of the hill. There are
no other trees. And I felt fully connected to
that tree. And I could sense how that tree was...
pulling in the nutrients from the soil and the
energy from the air. And I thought one with the
air and the sky. But with it was this complete
sense of final excitement and relaxation into
such authenticity that I had never experienced
before on Earth or in this form. Oh, every time
I talk about it, I feel homesick. Give me more
detail. You were jumping up and down. Jumping
up and down. There was someone there. There was
a celestial entity. It was masculine. He felt
like my best friend. I felt like I had known
him all of my life. It was great. And he simply
said, it's great to see you, David. And I said,
it's so great to be here. Come on, let's run
to the tree. I'm like a kid with his best friend.
And he said, no, you can't go up there. That's
common, right? In near -death experiences, there's
often a boundary or point at which you can't
go beyond. I knew if I got to that tree, I'd
never come back here. I was pulled to that tree.
But he said, let's talk. Things are going really
well, David. And we had this conversation that
felt so casual, so relaxed, so intimate. And
yet I also could sense from him that this was
an entity of absolute love and compassion, but
also authority and insight and wisdom. I was
humbled in his presence and I was as relaxed
as I would be with a childhood friend. We talked
about my life and Well, I can't remember all
the details of that conversation. It's basically,
things are going really well. You're where you
should be. You have a lot more work to do. You
can't stay here. It's really important that you
go back. And we're walking on the hill in the
grass. And I said, that's ridiculous. Why would
I go back? I'm finally here. I'm home. That this
is everything I've longed for. Come on, let's
go to the tree. There was a power in his presence.
I felt the significance of what he was saying.
You have more work to do. Look back now, and
I think that work is related, of course, to the
relationships and the conversations I would have,
because we're all here walking each other home.
We're all here to help each other wake up to
what we essentially and fundamentally are. But
I also knew that it meant I had a lot of maturing
to do. I had a lot of growing up to do. I was
young. I was 27. I still didn't know how to love
really well and live really well. He said, you
need to go back, but we will be with you. Plural.
That was interesting. When I realized that I
wasn't going to be able to stay there, I said,
Please, you can't send me back. I just want to
say, don't send me back to that. Because this
feels very fractured. This feels awkward and
clumsy and dense and inefficient, this state
of existence compared to that. This is like a
two -dimensional cardboard cutout. I was more
alive there. That's something that stuck with
me as I supported hundreds and Hundreds, I've
been at the bedside of so many as they've died.
And I know for them, it'll be waking up. And
the gravity of grief will be left with here,
with us. So part of me is a little bit envious.
And sometimes I say in my closing prayer for
them, you know, thank you for the gift of your
life and your love, and pray that you release
your body without... You know, release your body
with gratitude, release your life without regret,
and go on the wings of wonder to what's awaiting
you, and we'll see you on the other side. You
know, watch over your family if you can. Don't
freak them out. Behave yourself. Behave yourself.
Is that something that you believe that they
can do? Sort of like the ghosts, you know, the
scary ghosts we think of? Is that a thing? Well,
I tend to think the ghosts are a complex remnant
of consciousness amplified by our own consciousness.
I think there are different forms of spirit.
I think the afterlife is a lot more complicated
than we realize. This episode of Round Trip Death
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It's easy and today It's free. And with the billions
of life forms here on earth, why would there
not be even more after the physical form drops
away? So I think it's a rich and amazing universe.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I've got to
ask you, this entity that was with you and that
you were conversing with, do you have any feeling
for who that was? I have wondered if it was Jesus.
It certainly would be him in his compassion and
love and presence, but it could equally have
been an angel with that same characteristic of
consciousness. I do feel that I had known him
and he had known me from the beginning, so maybe
a guardian angel. I still talk to him or them.
you know, throughout my incarnate form, my journey
here. I've often asked them for help in my work
at the hospital with the dying. Because, you
know, to be honest, just because you have a near
-death experience, it doesn't upgrade all aspects
of your ego or your consciousness. I am still
human and in many ways as ridiculous as ever.
So, if left to my own devices, I'm probably going
to mess things up. Always asking for help. Well,
especially when you're doing something that important
like helping someone on their deathbed Wow Yeah,
we would need help because how do you know what
to say? And that was a beautiful thing that you
told us a few minutes ago But you know, maybe
they need specific advice or I don't know I Wouldn't
know what to say well I stop worrying about what
to say, and I focus more on the quality of my
presence. Don't worry about the words that will
come out of your mouth. The Bible talks about
Jesus is reassuring his disciples, don't worry
about what you're going to say. Relax. Why do
you worry about anything? Be open. Be open so
that spirit can flow through. Get out of your
own way. I'm still working on that homework.
It takes a certain kind of faith to just Sit
back and and wait for that kind of inspiration
to come You also mentioned the term we and I
know you've thought about this a lot, too So
any idea of who the we was that one being you
were with and who else? Yeah, I think that I
think every one of us has a team on the other
side Not a single angel or entity. I think Some
of us need a bigger support team or committee
Because we're a harder work in progress. Yeah.
The nature of consciousness itself is that there
is no such thing in the end as an individual
consciousness. It's all a collective form of
one consciousness. Because, well, we're getting
into some theology here. If God is, and God is
infinite, indivisible, ultimate consciousness
from which reality emanates, which Saint Paul
talks about in Corinthians. That means that there
can be no separate objects or entities in the
universe. All of them are emanations from the
one consciousness. And by that, every moment
of our existence is dependent upon this reality
of non -dual consciousness. So, Here I am, a
temporary form that, even after I die, will continue
in its own perceived unique individuation so
that it may participate in the mosaic of creative
enterprises of the divine. But ultimately it's
only one. I think of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane
praying, may they be one as you and I are one,
you and me us and them. I think there's a mystical
foundation of the ground of being underneath
all of this. It's quite perplexing, wondrous,
and the poverty of my words is really not going
to be adequate to explore it. And so many experiencers,
as you know, talk about that feeling of oneness.
And I often ask them to explain it and it's very
difficult to explain. Most people just can't.
They're just like, I just felt one with you and
me and the universe and God and everything, that
we're all connected in some way. Okay, I want
to get back. Was there more to your experience
than this and how did it end? I pleaded once
again to not be sent back and he turned to me
with an even deeper gravity of presence, and
he put his hand on my shoulder, and this love
and compassion poured into me, complete understanding.
And he just said, don't worry, we'll be with
you, we'll see you, we'll see you later. And
boom, I was back. So that's the hardest part.
Yeah, I've heard it explained many ways. Some
people say it feels like being slammed. back
in this body, they don't fit into... How did
you feel? What was it like or do you remember?
Oh, I felt my consciousness being compressed.
Yeah. I felt the density of this level of reality
compared to that. I felt the utter inadequacy
of my thoughts, which must progress one after
the other as my words do, and how utterly inadequate
they are. to express the deep nature of what
is fundamentally real. Everything becomes distorted,
right, through perception and time and space
and body and cognition and language and flesh
and bone. And what I had become, as well as what
I had experienced, receded from me, just descended,
like I dropped it into a... the depths of the
ocean and I'm watching it disappear down into
the dark. There was no way I could keep it at
the level of my egoic functioning and my perceived
separate identity. It just sank down and I felt
myself reaching out and grasping for it and it
was gone. And it left me simply feeling homesick
and embarrassed that I had passed out and scared
everyone. Again, right? Because I had passed
out before. The doctors and the nurses, they
took my vitals. They couldn't find anything wrong.
They gave me some orange juice. And every time
I tell this story, you know, I feel it. I went
home. I didn't tell my congregation. I didn't
tell anyone. Because this was over 30 years ago.
I didn't know about near -death experiences.
So what do you do when your consciousness...
moves from this state, and then you're expanded
into one so full and connected, and then you're
compressed back into this. You crawl into bed
and you grieve. You don't know why. And you shove
it down, and it took me years to integrate it.
And then when I started hearing about others
who've had them, the memory and the feeling surfaced.
As much as you're trying to dismiss it as a dream
or a hallucination, or a distortion, you can't
shake it. It's unlike any dream or memory you've
ever had. It has its hold on you. You are apprehended
and it won't let you go. And this homesickness,
this love, this complete and utter, inexplainable
knowing of God and Spirit and continued existence,
it's wonderful and it's lonely. I love that term,
homesickness. Yeah, if it felt so much like home,
you miss it. That's the grieving that you're
talking about. Totally makes sense. And yet I
know that I'm here for a reason. Let's jump to
that. You mentioned that earlier. You learned
about your mission in life. What are you here
for? I'm here to shine, in my own particular
way, and help others to do that too. Love is
your spiritual practice, because God is love.
And that means love isn't an emotion. Love is
the highest state of consciousness, completely
integrated and connected. That's why whatever
you do to the least of these, you do to Him.
So how I do that, or how I was led to do that,
was not something quite of my planning. It came
upon me. You know, I went back to my seminary
after my internship. I finished my degree. I
was placed in a church. On the first day in my
new parish, a man died, and there I was sitting
at his side, feeling oddly comfortable. I didn't
know that was a prelude or a forewarning of what
I would become. I had a church for ten years,
bumbling along, not very good at church administration,
but loving to be with the people and share the
stories. Then an opportunity came up for hospital
chaplaincy, and I just felt compelled, and I
jumped for it. 25 years later, it's been the
richest vocation I could ever have imagined.
But how do you go through helping people that
are on their deathbed and not come away just,
oh, wow, just depressed every day after doing
that? Well, there's a tension at play because
it's what I call emotional cholesterol. It builds
when you are continually exposed to suffering.
without relief between the cases. There's no
way to process it between the cases. So yes,
eventually that destabilizes your ability to
function, literally. I went on sabbatical for
a year because I'd written a book and there's
the book, Beyond Surviving. And this talks about
my four rounds with cancer and patient stories
of cancer and how to engage the crisis to deepen
your love and connect to that spiritual foundation.
We'll put a link to that in the show notes if
people want to find it. You have another book
too. Go ahead and mention it now. And the other
book is, I think it shows up backwards on your
thing, but Early Exits. Yeah. So this is a lot
thicker. This one is pretty heavy. It's about
euthanasia, which is legal in Canada. And when
that was brought in 10 years ago, it fundamentally
changed the nature of palliative care and the
nature of my work. And while on one level, Many
people said it's a kind and compassionate thing
to do when people are facing unbearable suffering.
On another level, I found it utterly an impoverished
response to suffering. The efficient management
of death through a simple injection. It turns
out that the vast majority of people are requesting
it because of spiritual suffering or existential
distress, not because of physical pain. Yes,
there are. those who have terrible physical suffering,
but that can be managed through proper medication,
which may require palliative sedation. A lot
of people are scared of that. They don't want
to be floating in limbo, or they don't want to
put their family through that. People are unaware
of the architecture, how the architecture of
consciousness and identity is deconstructed through
that period of dying, and how this is an opening
to your Your spiritual identities, near -and
-death awareness, mystical states of consciousness
near the end of life, are incredibly common.
But with euthanasia, we turn you off before you
reach that stage. And I'm even bold to say I
feel it's a medical procedure being used to treat
what is predominantly a spiritual condition.
So you're against euthanasia. Yeah. Oh yeah.
I think that the appropriate response is proper
pain management. deep compassion, the community
to rally, and for that process of telling your
story, expressing your fear, putting what terrifies
you out in front with a professional, with someone
who's able to help you unpack that. And talking
about near -death experiences is part of it,
because these are also so common. One in ten
who have a brush with death will have a near
-death experience. One in five. who have a cardiac
event, will have a near -death experience. Independent
of belief, culture, age, education, it's the
greatest gift that lies hidden in palliative
care. It's exciting to share this with doctors
and nurses. I presented a grand rounds at the
hospital on near -death experiences. It turned
out to be the highest attended and the highest
rated grand rounds they've ever had. People want
to know. Anyway, What does working with the dying
do to you? It deepens your humanity. It clarifies
your principles. It amplifies the gift of an
ordinary day. And when you take care of yourself,
exercise, healthy eating, watch your bad habits,
get plenty of sunshine, meditate, contemplate,
connect, then it quiets the noise down. It certainly
changes... your perspective on the insanity of
our world. It calibrates you to compassion. Which
brings peace. You seem to be someone at peace.
And doing this kind of service, I can see why.
Yeah, I'm not consistent with it. We're human,
okay. And still very much a clown. But that's
okay. My wife says my ridiculousness is part
of the charm, so... Let's hope she's honest about
that. Let's hope that attitude never changes.
All right, let's shift gears and talk about advice
to other clergy for a minute. Where would you
even start? First, let me just say that they're
hungry for it. The appetite for hope is immense
among the clergy, because the hope we proclaim
of the resurrection still predominantly tends
to be abstract. until you talk to someone who's
experienced, right, touch their doorstep on the
other side. There's so many who've been temporarily
transformed. It is utterly staggering. So I bet
if you're in a church, there are many in your
congregation who've had these, but they don't
talk about it because the church often criticizes,
people have been rejected, people have been dismissed,
because the leaders didn't know how to integrate
it. They weren't aware of it. I did a presentation
to our Lutheran clergy in Eastern Canada and
all of Ontario. There was a lot there, and the
bishops were there, and the Anglican bishop was
there, and they were enthusiastic and excited.
I renewed, for some of them, renewed their hope.
But let's acknowledge the theological tensions.
It challenges any exclusive claims that a church
might have upon Jesus. as the only way to God,
because near -death experiences are universal.
So that's going to threaten some theological
constructs and doctrine. But it actually doesn't
compromise the centrality of Jesus in our salvation
story. It can change the meaning of the word
salvation, which actually means wholeness and
to be complete. It doesn't actually mean life
after death. And it shifts the focus of the Church's
work from getting you to heaven, if you say this
certain prayer, to now bring the Kingdom of God
here to earth. That's what it's really about,
in how we treat and relate to each other. It's
a very incarnate faith. I would encourage clergy
to go to the International Association for Near
Death Studies website, and they have online discussion
groups. There's one for interfaith clergy, there's
one for Christian clergy, and it's a little advertisement.
I am the guy who facilitates that. I think there's
a Jewish one, too, if I remember right. Yeah.
Yeah, there's a Jewish one. Think of it this
way. If God is love, then again, love is your
spiritual practice. And whatever belief system
and doctrine you hold, even if it's pretty loctite
and sound, it's going to fall far short. of the
mystery and wonder of reality that's out there.
Because the poverty of our understanding just
cannot impart this realm. Only love can do so.
Getting back to what you mentioned a minute ago,
I don't find near -death experiences in any way
contrary to basic Christian doctrine from the
Bible. That's me personally. We also need to
remember one thing. When we're listening to these
experiences and that is. That people are getting
a very small glimpse of something okay in in
my opinion there on just the front step of the
porch of heaven or spirit world or whatever we
want to call it and they're getting a small glimpse
they're coming back there explaining it to us
in terms that they understand. which may use
some terms that we may or may not believe in.
Some people have a hard time hearing about reincarnation
because that doesn't seem to fit with doctrine,
but people also don't know how to explain it
any other way. witnessed. And they're not seeing
the entirety of the plan. They're not seeing
the entirety of heaven and God's work and all
of that. And that's not to discount their experiences
at all, but let's take them for what they are.
And because they're a little glimpse, I think
that's why sometimes people think they're contrary
and they're not. Let's remember that we are inherently
limited to our vocabulary, our cognitive framework,
the theological or existential story that we've
inherited. So when we come back, we're going
to express it in those terms. Thank you for saying
that better than I did. I was trying to say what
you just did. The story of the experience is
not the experience itself. And the story is going
to need a vessel. or framework, and we work with
what we got. So I've been working on integrating
near -death experiences with Christianity, and
I also see no contradiction in terms of reincarnation,
one of the red flags for Christians. My conclusion
is the afterlife is a lot more complicated than
I can comprehend. And even the concept of time
and space, I don't even know what that is. It
seems to be a product of mind and perception.
And I trust that, you know, God has it all taken
care of. I'm not going to worry about if I come
back. I frankly don't want to. In fact, when
my mom died, I sat with her and in her silence
right at the last hours, I said, Mom, I'm going
to have a heart -to -heart with you. Don't worry
about us. You've loved us well, and you are well
loved. I hope you know that. You just go. Dad
will be there, and he'll greet you with a kiss
and open arms, and you're going to have a great
welcoming party. And I said, look, if reincarnation
is a thing, Mom, I don't want you to even get
in the lineup. This place is going crazy here.
And you see, be casual about it. Be serious in
your love. Be confident in God's grace and wisdom.
And don't try to figure everything out. Focus
on your love. You can't do any better than that.
And we'll all find out one day, won't we? We
will. All right, I'm going to leave you with
the last word. There is somebody out there listening
today, and if this is only for one person, that's
fine. And that is that there's somebody out there
who is grieving, wondering if a loved one who
has passed recently really is still alive in
some way. And is there really an afterlife after
this? Would you leave us with a nice message
of hope today? Sure. So for you, right, if you're
watching us, you're watching this conversation
and you're grieving, you're struggling. I want
to say something that's really hard. God's grace
will protect you from nothing, but it will sustain
you through everything. God and the angels and
all the entities will not protect you from the
homework. the hardships of life. But they walk
with you. No one is alone. And your grief is
the price we pay for our love and attachment
in the human form. And it is a beautiful and
noble way to be broken. So I encourage you to
honor your grief, to find ways to say thank you,
love you, forgive me, and goodbye. see on the
other side. I want to assure you of that hope.
You're never alone, and all the love you've ever
known is going to prepare you for the love to
come. So trust the journey. Connect with your
community. Slow down and take care of yourself.
Thank you, David. Beautifully said. Thanks for
the conversation. It's an honor. Thanks again
for listening and sharing this podcast. Don't
forget to hit the follow or subscribe button
and sign up for our newsletter at roundtripdeath
.com. If you want to share your near -death experience
or if you have questions or comments about the
show, send an email to eric at roundtripdeath
.com. Until then, I wish you everything good
that you're looking for in this life and the
next.