Since the dawn of time, man's deepest questions
have revolved around the reality of an afterlife.
Of course, there's never been a way to know until
now. Witnesses of the world beyond, hope in a
better existence, overwhelming, unconditional
love, real people, real experiences and a glimpse
into the eternities. This is Round Trip Death.
Welcome, welcome to Round Trip Death, everybody.
We are really happy to have Donald Winter on
with us today and coming to us all the way from
New York. How are you, Don? Doing great. How
are you doing? Great. It is good to see you.
and happy new year to everybody. This is being
recorded before the new year, but it'll come
out after new year. And I want to give our listeners
a little bit of a heads up because this episode's
going to be a little different. We're going to
take a step back and do more of an investigative
kind of approach to near -death experiences today.
Don is someone who has been in the investigative
field for your career, and I'll let you fill
in all those kinds of details, but you have actually
been called one of the great investigators on
planet Earth. Wow. That, yeah. You're too humble
to hit yourself on the back on that one. Hey,
before we jump in, tell us a little bit about
you, Don. So I live in New York, in the Hudson
Valley region of New York. I'm 63 years old,
married. My father is still alive, 92 years old.
I have a son who's in Albany. My daughter is
19, lives with me. Retired military, went straight
into the military out of high school, lived overseas
for many years, and then moved back to New York
area when my parents got into their 80s. So I
wanted to spend some time with them before it
was too late. Give us a little bit about your
military background. qualifies you for the investigative
work that you've done on near -death experiences?
So I was in the intelligence, I was an intelligence
operative the entire time I was in the military
for 20 years plus an additional five years after
that working as a military contractor doing intelligence.
And then another eight years after that as an
investigative journalist. Started off as a Korean
linguist for six years and then a Spanish linguist
after that. And then eventually the end of my
career was five years in special operations.
Then I worked doing intelligence collection in
Latin America for a defense contractor. I was
living in Panama for most of that time. And then
I stayed in Panama after I retired and worked
for eight years doing investigative journalism.
So I've been trained by the National Security
Agency. I have a Master of Science in Strategic
Intelligence from the Defense Intelligence Agency.
As part of that training, and also with the special
operations stuff, I had a lot of interaction
with it, like CIA, for example. Military intelligence
really just comes down to a couple of very fundamental
things. Gather the information, analyze the information,
put it in a format as a report. for decision
makers to make decisions. So you learn a lot
about collecting information, analyzing information,
and also looking at it from, because of the master
of science in strategic intelligence, looking
at things from a strategic point of view. So
the catchphrase is, when in doubt, zoom out.
You can always look at it from a bigger picture.
And I look at near -death experiences as data,
primarily. What got you interested in NDEs in
the first place? Because you've done this study
on your own time. Yeah, so a year ago, my father
had a, I was at a medical appointment. My dad
decided to just go with me just as something
to do. And when I was leaving that medical appointment,
we were just literally walking out of the building
and walking out of the doctor's office. And he
passed out. Basically, I knew something was wrong.
I could see that he was kind of... not normal.
And as he passed out, I was able to grab his
coat and lower him down to the ground gently
so that he didn't hit hard. To make a long story
short, it turns out that he had a stomach bug
and he just got dehydrated and he passed out.
But we were talking about that about a week or
two afterwards. He mentioned to me, he says the
last thing that he remembered when he was going
down was, I wonder if this is what it's like
to die. I was like, oh, okay, interesting. My
father was always when he was raised, he had
an aunt and an uncle who were very, very religious
when they were also hypocritical. So they were,
you know, they would use religion to leverage
other people. And that just turned him off. He
just never, he never really was a very religious
person. He always used to say, or he still says
that I hope that when I die, I'll be pleasantly
surprised. You know, like, I don't know what's
waiting for me. I hope that it'll be good. He's
lived a great life. He's been he's a great guy.
But that is what got me going on. You know, I
started kind of doing a little bit of research.
Anyway, that's how I got started on it. Did you?
How do I put this? Most people doing research
have some kind of a hypothesis in mind before
they ever start. Were you setting out to learn
for yourself whether the afterlife was real or
what it was going to be like? Or what were you
trying to figure out? Well, the short answer
is no. As an analyst, you really try to avoid
that kind of bias. You just go in with a clean
slate and you get as much information as you
can. And then based on that information is where
you make your decisions. And that's how you proceed.
It's kind of like doing an investigative journalism
kind of thing. You just get the information and
the information will take you down that road.
So I didn't have any kind of preconceived notions
going in. Well, you must have wanted to learn
something. What was it? Well, I kind of just
started doing basic research, and I stumbled
into the entire near -death experience field
and said, well, this is kind of interesting.
But then, and you've interviewed hundreds of
people or more, so you know exactly what I'm
talking about. So I kind of went from, well,
this is interesting. And honestly, I had initially
some skepticism on some of the things that I
was hearing. So you go from skepticism to interesting
to intriguing. And the more and more that I learned,
I went all the way over to just acceptance. But
that was a process. Okay. So let's jump into
that overall view. What are some of the things
that you learned that you want to share with
us? Then we'll dial in on them. Right. The most
intriguing thing from the start was the volume
of data, the sheer amount of information that's
available. And the more I learned about it, you
realize that there's more and more near -death
experiences today than there ever has been because
medicine continues to advance. So there are more,
I mean, there's more ambulances that arrive because
of 911. Somebody has some kind of a medical problem.
There's likely going to be some kind of a response.
In hospital settings, you have the, you know,
shocking people back to life and medicine available
and, you know, they understand a lot more now.
Historically speaking, within the last, I don't
know, 40, 50 years, there's been more and more
near -death experiences every day. And if you
do the math, I estimate about 25 ,000 a day,
brand new cases globally. That's just my rough
estimate. Based on population, pick a percentage,
do the math, that's about how many there are.
By the way, Don, have you talked to Dr. Jeff
O'Driscoll? No. Okay. He's someone that lives
in Salt Lake City and I've met him at some ions
events and I'll set you up with him because he's
done research on the exact numbers. Okay. And
made some really good estimates and he's made
some good observations that you just touched
on and that is with modern medicine, more people
are having these experiences. That doesn't mean
they talk about them more, but especially with
the, I believe they're called AIDs. So the defibrillators
that they have everywhere from high school gyms
to hotels and all over the place now. And with
those, there are a lot, lot more people living
after the kind of heart attack that completely
stops their heart. And he has numbers on the
whole thing. We'll get him on the show one of
these days. But he has the numbers and you would
be fascinated with some of those. So we'll get
you connected. Anyway, please keep going with
your thoughts. Well, that was the idea. There
was just the sheer amount of information that's
available. The other thing that you touched on
as well about people being not sometimes not
want to talk about it, because if you just go
back to the 70s or 80s, people were still thinking,
you know, hey, man, I had this experience. If
i tell people about it they're gonna think i'm
looping you know that the the heart attack is
you know got my brain or something you know but
nowadays especially with the internet and shows
like yours there's more and more people that
are not really afraid or as concerned as they
used to be about telling their story. And you
also see a lot where, well, this happened to
me 40 years ago, and this is the first time I'm
talking about it, and it's somebody who's 75
or whatever years old. So it's two things. There's
more of them occurring, but then there's also
less of a resistance to just talk about it. Oh,
absolutely. So tell us about some of your findings.
OK, so the process that I went through was to
just basically take a broad stroke approach and
look for the commonalities. So it got to the
point where I listened to near -death experiences.
And honestly, it almost gets boring because you
know what's going to happen next. First thing
I always start, what I'm looking for is I'm looking
for a clinical flatline death or somebody who's
on the verge of death and who is, let's say,
in the hospital. uh in hospice or something and
they have uh they're you know dying from cancer
or something so they're in those kinds of situations
that people will kind of go have a near -death
experience and kind of come back they're kind
of wavering on the edge so that's my first starting
point is you know i'm looking i'm not looking
for somebody who just says you know i woke up
and i was outside of my body i was like well
what happened you know let's take a take a step
back and let's you know What's exactly the situation
that's going on here? So that's the first thing
I'm looking for is actual, you know, someone
who meets that situation. The next step is like,
well, how do these occur? It's like, well, anything
you could think of, crushed by a car, accident
went through the window, got hit by lightning,
medical, heart attack, you know what I'm saying?
There's basically lots of ways for this to occur.
Then the next step is to look for the commonalities.
So it's the out of body, it's the into the void
and then through the tunnel and there's a bright
light white and you meet the energy source and
have a life review when go to the garden and
meet the ancestors. So these are the these are
the commonalities that occur. It's almost it's
ridiculously consistent. And that's what pushed
me over the top in terms of just flat out acceptance
of saying this is what happens. And that was
the start of my process anyway. I'm going to
play devil's advocate just for a second. I certainly
have that acceptance like you do that these things
are real. And there are a lot of commonalities,
but there are also a lot of differences. Did
that throw you off a little bit? No. All right.
So imagine. So I've kind of thought about that
a lot. Here's what happens. So let's say I told
you that, okay, I hopped in my car. I drove to
the bank. I went to the ATM machine, pulled out
some money. Then I went and stopped at the corner
and got a hot dog. And then I went to the bowling
alley and bowled a game of, you know, went bowling.
If you and I both had that same experience, I
would be hopping in my car. I would be going
to my bank. You see what I'm saying? So you can
have differences. And the net effect is exactly
the same. Go to the bank, get a hot dog, go bowling.
But the actual experience for each person is
going to be absolutely unique. You follow me?
So you can have the differences and the consistency
simultaneously. Both things can be true. And
they are, every time. Even if the experience
was amazingly similar? Like to use your analogy
if somebody went to the same bowling alley the
same bang the same hot dog They would report
it differently, right? Well, the other that's
that's another part of it too. Is that I've seen
instances where somebody tells their story and
they were like, okay This is what it was like
But then when you have a chance to converse with
them or either, you know through text messages
or through email or or speaking to them directly
They'll leave things out sometimes, you know,
they'll they'll oh, yeah, I forgot to mention
that it's like, okay But I try not to lead people.
I just say, did anything else happen? And they
think about it and they remember more details.
But a lot of times in the first instance, they
might not remember some stuff. But that happens
too. Well, and I find that some people, even
if they had an experience 20 years ago, a specific
question that they haven't heard before or thought
about before may prompt another memory to come
back to them. Yep. To you is that more evidence
that it's real or less that it's real? Couple
of things. I have ADHD. It's just part of me
that that gives me kind of an ability. I mean,
I don't know if everybody's got this ability
to a certain extent, but I can just tell with
intonation body language. Lexicon word selection
the way people say things the way that the way
they talk about it you can tell you can just
tell when somebody is authentic. At the same
time you can also tell when somebody is making
it up you know i'm saying let me give you one
for one for instance there was a young man that
went out and got in his car he was drunk driving
and he crashed his car and he killed somebody
he's telling his story about an ndt but when
i'm listening to it i'm like. this is just off,
it's just wrong, it just doesn't make sense.
The way he was talking about the words he was
using, it was just off. It turns out that he
used his NDE experience, as he told the story,
that now he's found religion, he's converted,
and he used that to convince the parole board
to let him go. So, you know, he had that motivation,
but I could just tell that it was off. Quick
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And as a result of that experience, I created
a kind of an authenticity scoring computer model
so I can take a script of a conversation, transcript,
and I can run it through this computer model
and it'll score it from 0 to 100. Because checking
for those things that I was just picking up on
natively just in the way he was speaking, I decided
to go ahead and put quantitative measures against
those things. It works very, very well. The highest
score that I've ever gotten is a 94, and the
lowest was a 12. So it works. Tell me more about
that. Okay, so for example, on your website,
the transcripts of your interviews are available.
So I could just go out and grab the transcript,
run it through the computer model, and it will
measure what's in there and what's not for different
categories of individual data points. And again,
looking for those things that are the most common
and the most consistent that you can name off
the top of your head without even thinking about
it. If those things are present, well, then it's
more likely to be more authentic. If there's
other things that are missing, then it's not
the kind of thing that I'm that I'm interested
in. Like, for example, there's lots of people
out there that will have they'll have basically
overdoses and they'll have visions or, you know.
things that occur to them, but it's not associated
with an actual physical death. It's just the
drugs talking. So one of the things I've learned
is that you can drug a brain, but you can't drug
a soul. So if someone actually crosses over,
then the drugs are gone and the brain's perfectly
crystal clear. So there's a difference in the
way that that story gets told. Yeah, and as you
know, I've asked a lot of people that have been
in that situation, how do you know that this
wasn't just some kind of drug trip? And what's
the answer? Well, the answer is what I said just
a moment ago that you can drug a brain, but you
cannot drug a soul. So like, for example, when
people die and they cross over, let's say they
get crushed by a truck or something. Well, the
pain's gone because the soul has no nerve endings.
So your hearing gets better. Your sight gets
better. Your brain is super clear. There's nothing
fogging your brain at all. You could literally
take enough drugs to overdose, and this happens
all the time. But then as soon as you cross over,
all of that drug effect is completely gone. Okay,
as long as we're talking about this computer
model that you've come up with, let me mention
something. That is that on YouTube, it's really
easy for people to comment, okay? If they're
watching the video versus listening to the audio
version, it's super easy to just type a comment
down there. And every once in a while, someone
will type, oh, I believed it until they said
X. And then I don't believe him anymore. They
said they had written a book, so they're making
money on it. Or they said this or that that just
didn't jive with me. Therefore, I think they
made the thing up. What advice do you have for
people like that? Listen to more than one. Listen
to a thousand. Listen to ten thousand. Listen
to everything you can get your hands on. And
you'll find that in the bulk. not just one or
two or ten or a hundred, in the bulk, when you're
looking at thousands if not, I mean potentially
millions or even a billion near -death experiences
told by humans throughout human history, that
when you look at that bulk of data, then you
sort out the individual things that don't jive
with what your preconceived notions were. But
these people a lot, most of them believe in NDEs,
they just don't believe that particular person.
Well that's fine. How do people know if that
particular person's telling the truth or not?
Well, again, that's a personal choice. And the
other thing is that the one thing that I would
look for in that case is what's that outside
motivation? So let me tell you about my friend
Frank. So Frank is a good buddy of mine, and
he lives out in Arizona. We were in the military
together. And he's an evangelical Christian,
and he spends his time, now that he's retired
from the military, he spends his time volunteering
at soup kitchens, and he's out there trying to
find people one at a time that he can like find
one person that he can talk to, that he can help
to overcome whatever challenges that they're
dealing with. He told me he's like when I first
started looking into NDEs, I said, Hey, Frank,
this is what I'm doing. And he goes, Oh, yeah,
people send me those all the time. He says, I
don't I don't believe in it. So what are you
talking about? So what it turns out that when
I questioned him about it, that there is an entire
subset of people who are trying to push an agenda
or who have a pre -scribed bias that they're
trying to. So they'll take a little short clip
of an NDE interview and they'll just play that
clip and then cut that guy out of the conversation
and then go into their own diatribe, trying to
spin it to support their preconceived notions.
So I was like, oh, okay, that's an entire subset
of the stuff that's out there in the NDE space.
So I ran into that as well. Let me just say that,
just from a personal note here, the people that
I have on this show, the vast, vast majority
I believe, I don't always believe every single
word that they say, but I believe the majority
of what they say. It's hard to know whether we
can believe every single word or not. But for
those that think just because somebody might
make some money on a book, that does not mean
that their experience didn't happen and isn't
real. Lots of people that have had NDEs that
I consider a thousand percent real have written
a book because they just want to express it.
They want some way to just tell it and get it
off their chest. It's therapeutic. And most people
that write these books never make any money at
all. That's really just a small percentage that
do, so please don't use that against people.
I know I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to
listeners. Talking to people in general? Yeah.
Yeah, not you. You mentioned a word a minute
ago, the word soul. Tell me what you believe
that word means. Speaking of books, there's an
entire chapter in my book about that specific
issue that's one of the concepts that You can't
talk about NDEs without talking about a soul
or a spirit or a consciousness that continues
after death. That's what it is that we're talking
about. That's what continues after death. Well,
anyway, just answer your question to stay on
track. That's what I believe it is. It is the
part of your consciousness that continues after
the physical body, either permanently or temporarily,
can no longer sustain life. So that's where the
out -of -body experience starts, and then off
you go from there. By the way, I don't mind you
mentioning your book. To me, it doesn't blow
your credibility. God's first language. No, I
actually changed the title. Oh, no. What is it
called now? Yeah, because I'm doing some A -B
testing on it. It's out as an e -book. I just
put it out as a paperback. It's now called So
You're Gonna Die Someday, right? You know, that's
the trying to be a little bit more, I don't know,
maybe commercial or... Then the subtitle is that
near -death experiences reveal what happens next.
So that's the idea. So the one thing that we
all have in common as people, and the also that
we also happen to have in common with every living
thing on the planet, is that if you have life
sooner or later, that's going to end. We all
have an expiration date. We just don't know when
that is. And everybody wants to know what happens
after we die. So the God's first language When
I first wrote the book, the one concept that
is in there that I don't think has really been
talked about much at all, I couldn't find anything
on it at all, the idea that 300 ,000 years of
human history, and over that period of time,
a percentage of those people, even if it's a
very small number of people, will have had some
kind of near -death experience. So if they're
happening to us now, of course in much greater
numbers because of the medical stuff we talked
about before, It is my belief that that is where
the original concepts of an afterlife, a soul,
heaven, God, reincarnation, that that's where
these, the life review, that that's where these
concepts come from. And if you look around the
planet and if you just Kind of in your brain
hold the hold the globe in your hand and then
you you realize that these stories have been
raining down on humanity for 300 ,000 years and
putting that in context Rating was just invented
5 ,000 years ago, right? So 295 ,000 years with
oral history. That's it people telling stories
around a campfire and the near -death experience
story is gonna be the most interesting and different
story that anybody can tell around a campfire.
So if that happened in your little clan of maybe
20 or 30 hunter -gatherers, well, that's going
to be the most interesting story that anybody
ever heard. Then that gets told over time, over
thousands and thousands of years. And then out
of the blue at about 120 ,000 years ago, we start
burying people with ritualistic burials. Compare
that to the Denisovans who went... 400 ,000 years
and never buried anybody. I don't want to get
too geeky on you, but that's all that stuff's
what's in the book. So that's the idea is that
ancient near -death experiences resulted in the
concepts of afterlife, soul, God, and all those
other things. Where does religion come into that?
Very good question. So are you familiar with
Jainism by any chance? J -A -I -N -I -S -M, Jainism.
So it's in... India, just a couple of provinces
in the northeast part of India, and it's the
seed cosmology for both Buddhism and Hinduism.
And if you look at what they believe and how
they do things, there's only about a million
people practicing this religion. It's practically
a photocopy of near -death experience. It's like
if somebody just listened to us and said, okay,
let's make a religion about this, that's Jainism.
So if you start with the fundamentals, of what
you learn from NDEs. And then the problem becomes
when you try to turn that into a religion, you
need to make it a franchise that has elements
that can grow your church, basically. I say that
all religions basically get a C minus in terms
of, you know, if NDEs are true and accurate and
factual, well, then everybody kind of gets it
kind of right and kind of wrong. And here's the
Trump card. I love having this card in my back
pocket. And I want to say that up front. And
I have no interest at all in trying to make anybody
believe anything. I think everybody who is religious
in any way whatsoever, just fine, have at it.
Just want to make sure it doesn't matter. What
I'm trying to say is that I've come to the conclusion
that the same thing happens to each of us when
we die, regardless of whatever it is that you
believed before you die. So there's all kinds
of cases, for example, of an orthodox atheist,
okay, someone who is absolutely, nope, you're
dead, you go on the ground, the worms eat you,
that's it. And then they come back going, okay,
well, when I had my near -death experience prior
to that, I was an absolute atheist, but now I've
changed. There are people who believe any one
particular religion, let's say, for example,
Catholicism. And they're surprised to find out
that, well, hey, reincarnation is a thing. So
that kind of thing happens all the time where
people have preconceived notions before they
have a near -death experience and then after
they have a near -death experience, their thoughts
have changed on that. What about those that have
hellish -type experiences? So that's interesting.
So what I've been able to determine on that,
and again through my research or the conclusions
that I've come to, is that there was... Let me
give you one, for instance. There was a woman
who was a drug addict. She had a couple of children
and they were young children. She just decided,
you know what, that's it. I'm done. And she intentionally
overdosed. And as part of her overdose experience,
she had a near death experience. During her life
review phase of the near -death experience, she
was, you know how it goes, you get the whole
thing downloaded all at once, but then you go
through and you can see and feel both sides of
the conversation for every interaction that you've
ever had. She had to, not had to, but she did,
was able to relive or replay all of those experiences
where all of the bad things that she did to other
people. And as she was describing that process,
she said at least four or five different times,
I was in hell. It was like hell. I was going
through hell. It was hell, hell, hell. All of
those references as it pertained to her. life
review. There was more of those like that as
well. It's like people who bad did bad things,
but were forced to confront them or they confronted
them as part of their near, but it, but it was
in a learning setting. You know, it was the idea
was you're not, we're not here to judge or punish.
You're just here to, you know, cause that's kind
of why we all come here anyway. We're here to
learn. This is earth is kind of like a college
or something. You know, you get your NDE PhD
and you graduate and be a spirit guide, I guess.
That's the plan. So that's my take on the hellish
experience. I've come to the conclusion that
hell does not exist. I've come to the conclusion
that that's just a manufactured element by humans
for religion. Okay. Let's say that I'm someone
that doesn't know what to believe out there.
I don't know if there's an afterlife. I don't
know if I should care. I don't know what that
has to do with my life now. Give me some overall
takeaways. Well, A very good, a very good example
is my father. So he never, he's never been a
religious person at all, but he just lived his
life as do the right thing. You know the difference
from right from wrong. And you do the right thing
every time, even if nobody's watching. And if
you have no chance of ever getting caught, you
just do the right thing period. And then just
treat people the way you want to be treated.
Just be nice, be kind, be generous, be respectful
and courteous. That's just the way he lived his
life. Just as a result of that, his life review
was going to be a walk in the park. You know,
it's going to be a piece of cake. So if you don't
have anything weighing on your conscience like
that, then you don't have anything to worry about
whatsoever. If you don't know what you think
with regards to what happens after we die, then
that's fine, too. And again, I go back to the
Trump card. It doesn't matter what you believe
here on the planet because you're going to find
out because the same thing happens to everybody,
no matter what, doesn't matter culture, background,
religion, language, location on the planet. The
same thing happens to everybody because the reports
are universal, regardless of language. All right.
I want to get your opinion on something that
I'm going to just throw out there because not
only have I interviewed a lot of people, but
I've spent a lot of years thinking about this
topic. And one of the conclusions that I've come
to is that when people have a near -death experience,
they are seeing or experiencing just a teeny
tiny glimpse of what the afterlife is going to
be like. You're nodding your head. You must agree
with that as well. Do you think because they're
only seeing that little glimpse that There's
a whole, obviously, there's a whole lot more
that they're not seeing and experiencing. Can
that throw us off a little bit? Absolutely. It
absolutely does. You're right on the money there.
Think about walking into Disney World, but you
don't get past the turnstile. There's a boundary
issue. So there's an entire subset of people
who had their near -death experience. They cross
over. They go through the process, through the
tunnel. the white light, the life review, the
ancestors. But then there's a boundary element
that they're basically told that, okay, so you
got to stop right there. Because if you go any
farther, there's no coming back. And your body
is still viable, you've got things to do, you've
got things left to do in your life. So they're
basically encouraged to go back. But that boundary
is there. And that comes up all the time, not
all the time, not 100%, but I know what the number
is. But there's a It's a frequent mention. And
again, if somebody hits that boundary and keeps
going, you're not going to be interviewing them
because they didn't come back. That's part of
the elements that come up in the interviews.
Yeah, I often wonder of those that say that they
had a choice of whether to come back or not,
which is the majority. There are a few that are
just told you're going back, but the majority
have some kind of a choice. They may be talked
into the decision, but they have a choice. And
I believe that that agency that freedom of choice
is a huge part of what the next life is all about.
As well as this life for that matter but the
point was. I often wonder how many people when
they were given a choice that while I'm staying.
And we never do hear from them is it ninety percent
is it fifty percent yet we have no idea. Yeah
I thought about that as well. consider somebody
who's in some kind of a very dramatic kinetic
death where their body is destroyed to the point
of no return. So coming back is not a choice
for them at all. So in that case, their free
will is removed. There is a chapter in my book
that's about free will and how free will is something
that crosses over from here to there. There's
not a lot of things that cross over from here
to there, but I believe that's one of them. And
one thing that I see all the time is that people
will say, They'll start off an interview by saying,
I was told I had to come back. And it sounds
like they were commanded to come back. But then
when you get further into the interview, it'll
be like, well, I wanted to stay. It was so nice
there. I didn't want to go back. There's no pain.
I was suffering, you know, whenever I had my
accident or whatever the problem is, for the
reason why the person died, maybe they're ill.
But pain is gone. All my worries are gone. Why
would I ever want to go back there? But then
there's this conversation of, well, you've got
things to do and here's your life plan. This
is what you laid out for yourself. And you've
got your family and you've got these other things
that you wanted to accomplish. And then they'll
say, and then eventually they'll frame it in
such a way that they indicate that I decided
to go back. And that happens very, very frequently.
I have seen in near -death experiences that are
very, very brief. For example, there was a guy
that was in an operating room and something happened
during the operation and he went flat -lined
dead and he had a very brief, like in -and -out
almost experience that he did an out -of -body
and then there was a spirit guide right next
to him. And it was very, very short. He's like,
oh, I'm out of my body. I'm looking around. What
the heck's going on? He's like, oh, is that me?
Am I dead? And then there's a spirit guide right
next to him. And then it's like shot clear. Wow.
And then bang, he's back in his body. So in that
case, he didn't even have a chance to go. But
it's like, nope, you're back. So in that case,
there's no real decision there. But that whole
choice of free will, I find to be incredibly
interesting. It's a recurring element. It's very,
very frequent. It's not unusual at all. That
process that I described of starting off with,
I was, you know, when they're first telling the
story as I was made to go back or I was commanded
to go back. But when you look into it a little
bit deeper, that very often the really what happened
was they decided to come back. And to your point,
yeah, if somebody says, Nope, I'm not going back.
That's it. Well, then free will also exists there.
And then that person just never comes back to
life. Yeah. That free will, I believe, is really
one of the eternal laws of the universe. And
for those that believe in God, I believe it's
something that He lives by as well. Yeah, I just
think it's just the way the, I think it's just
the, one of the rules in the back of the monopoly
box, you know what I'm saying? It's just, it's
always there, it's always on. And if you think
about it, even in life, you always have a choice.
even if you have a bad choice, you have the lesser
of two equals kind of a scenario, at every time
you always pick one or the other between different
routes and different ways to proceed forward.
So I think free will is always on. It's like
gravity. Absolutely. Okay, just a couple more
questions. One is, what kind of message of hope
can people have from all of this? I think that
there's kind of a spiritual awakening going on,
kind of more of an authentic, just because I've
been changed by this experience of the more I
learn about NBEs. I mean, I'm talking personally,
me, that the way I go about my day -to -day life
now. So when I go out to go to the ATM or to
the bank or to go get a hot dog or go bowling
or whatever, when I'm just going through life,
I make it my point to put a smile on somebody's
face every day, no matter what, with just interactions
of people on the street. Just be nice. You know,
now there's also a lot there. If you look at
a lot of the especially like Facebook groups
and some of the things on Reddit and stuff, that
there's a lot of people that are on those groups
looking for answers because a loved one passed
away. So that's the grief process. That's another
another significant angle there. There's another
chapter in my book which is like, grandma really
is in a better place, you know? It's like, so
that's what you're told when you're a kid. It's
like, well, turns out that's kind of true, you
know? The whole point is to learn and to grow
and to just, you know, be a better person, you
know? And that's kind of like why we're here.
All right. Here's something else on a personal
note. You've listened to the show. You know,
I often ask people that have had an experience
like this. what their level of fear of death
is after it, and it's generally zero. You haven't
been through near -death experience, but you
have the logical conscience, or conscious, I
should say, viewpoint of, yes, these things are
real, which means I'm going to be in some form
living after my physical body dies. But how much
fear or concern about death is there still with
you, Don? For me? None. None whatsoever. None.
Not even a smidgen. I'm not concerned at all.
I don't care. I know, I mean, I'm not worried
about it. Why should I worry about it? Because
if I'm going to die, there's, I mean, you're
talking to somebody who's had four heart attacks,
open heart surgery, six different catheterizations.
five stents placed at my heart. I had my first
heart attack at 38 years old. I don't know what
the expiration is on the back of my neck because
I can't see it, but I don't know when it is,
but I'm not worried about it. So if it's going
to happen, that's the other thing too. It's inevitable.
Everybody dies sometime. So you might as well
just enjoy the ride while you're here and not
sweat it too much and just do the best you can
by everybody while you're on the planet. That's
just my take. Well said, my friend. Don Winner,
thanks a ton for being with me today. It's been
fun. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, anytime.
I really enjoyed it. Appreciate you. Thanks again
for listening and sharing this podcast. Don't
forget to hit the follow or subscribe button
and sign up for our newsletter at roundtripdeath
.com. If you want to share your near -death experience,
or if you have questions or comments about the
show, send an email to eric at roundtripdeath
.com. Until then, I wish you everything good
that you're looking for in this life and the
next.