WEBVTT 00:00:01.380 --> 00:00:06.700 Since the dawn of time, man's deepest questions 00:00:06.700 --> 00:00:11.359 have revolved around the reality of an afterlife. 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:16.199 Of course, there's never been a way to know until 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:21.739 now. Witnesses of the world beyond, hope in a 00:00:21.739 --> 00:00:26.079 better existence, overwhelming, unconditional 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:32.130 love, real people, real experiences and a glimpse 00:00:32.130 --> 00:00:38.130 into the eternities. This is Round Trip Death. 00:00:42.329 --> 00:00:44.450 Welcome, welcome to Round Trip Death, everybody. 00:00:44.770 --> 00:00:47.990 We are really happy to have Donald Winter on 00:00:47.990 --> 00:00:51.229 with us today and coming to us all the way from 00:00:51.229 --> 00:00:53.929 New York. How are you, Don? Doing great. How 00:00:53.929 --> 00:00:56.929 are you doing? Great. It is good to see you. 00:00:57.179 --> 00:01:00.500 and happy new year to everybody. This is being 00:01:00.500 --> 00:01:02.579 recorded before the new year, but it'll come 00:01:02.579 --> 00:01:05.859 out after new year. And I want to give our listeners 00:01:05.859 --> 00:01:08.840 a little bit of a heads up because this episode's 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:11.439 going to be a little different. We're going to 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:16.219 take a step back and do more of an investigative 00:01:16.219 --> 00:01:19.640 kind of approach to near -death experiences today. 00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:24.219 Don is someone who has been in the investigative 00:01:24.219 --> 00:01:27.730 field for your career, and I'll let you fill 00:01:27.730 --> 00:01:31.150 in all those kinds of details, but you have actually 00:01:31.150 --> 00:01:34.090 been called one of the great investigators on 00:01:34.090 --> 00:01:38.310 planet Earth. Wow. That, yeah. You're too humble 00:01:38.310 --> 00:01:41.489 to hit yourself on the back on that one. Hey, 00:01:41.629 --> 00:01:43.629 before we jump in, tell us a little bit about 00:01:43.629 --> 00:01:47.170 you, Don. So I live in New York, in the Hudson 00:01:47.170 --> 00:01:50.290 Valley region of New York. I'm 63 years old, 00:01:50.890 --> 00:01:54.310 married. My father is still alive, 92 years old. 00:01:54.629 --> 00:01:57.650 I have a son who's in Albany. My daughter is 00:01:57.650 --> 00:02:01.430 19, lives with me. Retired military, went straight 00:02:01.430 --> 00:02:04.069 into the military out of high school, lived overseas 00:02:04.069 --> 00:02:06.689 for many years, and then moved back to New York 00:02:06.689 --> 00:02:10.569 area when my parents got into their 80s. So I 00:02:10.569 --> 00:02:12.629 wanted to spend some time with them before it 00:02:12.629 --> 00:02:15.289 was too late. Give us a little bit about your 00:02:15.289 --> 00:02:20.150 military background. qualifies you for the investigative 00:02:20.150 --> 00:02:22.729 work that you've done on near -death experiences? 00:02:23.469 --> 00:02:26.629 So I was in the intelligence, I was an intelligence 00:02:26.629 --> 00:02:28.789 operative the entire time I was in the military 00:02:28.789 --> 00:02:31.770 for 20 years plus an additional five years after 00:02:31.770 --> 00:02:34.689 that working as a military contractor doing intelligence. 00:02:35.250 --> 00:02:37.509 And then another eight years after that as an 00:02:37.509 --> 00:02:40.189 investigative journalist. Started off as a Korean 00:02:40.189 --> 00:02:42.810 linguist for six years and then a Spanish linguist 00:02:42.810 --> 00:02:45.069 after that. And then eventually the end of my 00:02:45.069 --> 00:02:47.289 career was five years in special operations. 00:02:47.689 --> 00:02:50.129 Then I worked doing intelligence collection in 00:02:50.129 --> 00:02:53.629 Latin America for a defense contractor. I was 00:02:53.629 --> 00:02:55.449 living in Panama for most of that time. And then 00:02:55.449 --> 00:02:59.210 I stayed in Panama after I retired and worked 00:02:59.210 --> 00:03:01.050 for eight years doing investigative journalism. 00:03:01.550 --> 00:03:04.189 So I've been trained by the National Security 00:03:04.189 --> 00:03:08.050 Agency. I have a Master of Science in Strategic 00:03:08.050 --> 00:03:10.469 Intelligence from the Defense Intelligence Agency. 00:03:10.830 --> 00:03:13.530 As part of that training, and also with the special 00:03:13.530 --> 00:03:16.530 operations stuff, I had a lot of interaction 00:03:16.530 --> 00:03:21.770 with it, like CIA, for example. Military intelligence 00:03:21.770 --> 00:03:24.189 really just comes down to a couple of very fundamental 00:03:24.189 --> 00:03:27.750 things. Gather the information, analyze the information, 00:03:28.150 --> 00:03:32.759 put it in a format as a report. for decision 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:37.620 makers to make decisions. So you learn a lot 00:03:37.620 --> 00:03:41.219 about collecting information, analyzing information, 00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:44.979 and also looking at it from, because of the master 00:03:44.979 --> 00:03:47.620 of science in strategic intelligence, looking 00:03:47.620 --> 00:03:50.000 at things from a strategic point of view. So 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.840 the catchphrase is, when in doubt, zoom out. 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:53.719 You can always look at it from a bigger picture. 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:57.340 And I look at near -death experiences as data, 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:00.629 primarily. What got you interested in NDEs in 00:04:00.629 --> 00:04:03.409 the first place? Because you've done this study 00:04:03.409 --> 00:04:07.849 on your own time. Yeah, so a year ago, my father 00:04:07.849 --> 00:04:10.289 had a, I was at a medical appointment. My dad 00:04:10.289 --> 00:04:12.229 decided to just go with me just as something 00:04:12.229 --> 00:04:15.750 to do. And when I was leaving that medical appointment, 00:04:15.969 --> 00:04:17.709 we were just literally walking out of the building 00:04:17.709 --> 00:04:20.009 and walking out of the doctor's office. And he 00:04:20.009 --> 00:04:22.069 passed out. Basically, I knew something was wrong. 00:04:22.189 --> 00:04:24.939 I could see that he was kind of... not normal. 00:04:25.399 --> 00:04:27.639 And as he passed out, I was able to grab his 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:30.259 coat and lower him down to the ground gently 00:04:30.259 --> 00:04:32.699 so that he didn't hit hard. To make a long story 00:04:32.699 --> 00:04:34.660 short, it turns out that he had a stomach bug 00:04:34.660 --> 00:04:37.060 and he just got dehydrated and he passed out. 00:04:37.500 --> 00:04:39.180 But we were talking about that about a week or 00:04:39.180 --> 00:04:42.040 two afterwards. He mentioned to me, he says the 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:43.819 last thing that he remembered when he was going 00:04:43.819 --> 00:04:46.220 down was, I wonder if this is what it's like 00:04:46.220 --> 00:04:50.149 to die. I was like, oh, okay, interesting. My 00:04:50.149 --> 00:04:52.810 father was always when he was raised, he had 00:04:52.810 --> 00:04:56.069 an aunt and an uncle who were very, very religious 00:04:56.069 --> 00:04:58.730 when they were also hypocritical. So they were, 00:04:58.730 --> 00:05:01.389 you know, they would use religion to leverage 00:05:01.389 --> 00:05:03.550 other people. And that just turned him off. He 00:05:03.550 --> 00:05:06.009 just never, he never really was a very religious 00:05:06.009 --> 00:05:08.050 person. He always used to say, or he still says 00:05:08.050 --> 00:05:11.329 that I hope that when I die, I'll be pleasantly 00:05:11.329 --> 00:05:13.569 surprised. You know, like, I don't know what's 00:05:13.569 --> 00:05:16.759 waiting for me. I hope that it'll be good. He's 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:18.480 lived a great life. He's been he's a great guy. 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:20.939 But that is what got me going on. You know, I 00:05:20.939 --> 00:05:23.639 started kind of doing a little bit of research. 00:05:23.860 --> 00:05:26.540 Anyway, that's how I got started on it. Did you? 00:05:26.779 --> 00:05:29.839 How do I put this? Most people doing research 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:32.399 have some kind of a hypothesis in mind before 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:36.879 they ever start. Were you setting out to learn 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:41.180 for yourself whether the afterlife was real or 00:05:41.180 --> 00:05:43.720 what it was going to be like? Or what were you 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:48.670 trying to figure out? Well, the short answer 00:05:48.670 --> 00:05:52.290 is no. As an analyst, you really try to avoid 00:05:52.290 --> 00:05:55.009 that kind of bias. You just go in with a clean 00:05:55.009 --> 00:05:57.769 slate and you get as much information as you 00:05:57.769 --> 00:06:00.730 can. And then based on that information is where 00:06:00.730 --> 00:06:03.350 you make your decisions. And that's how you proceed. 00:06:03.670 --> 00:06:05.709 It's kind of like doing an investigative journalism 00:06:05.709 --> 00:06:08.089 kind of thing. You just get the information and 00:06:08.089 --> 00:06:10.730 the information will take you down that road. 00:06:10.790 --> 00:06:13.389 So I didn't have any kind of preconceived notions 00:06:13.389 --> 00:06:15.600 going in. Well, you must have wanted to learn 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:19.540 something. What was it? Well, I kind of just 00:06:19.540 --> 00:06:22.220 started doing basic research, and I stumbled 00:06:22.220 --> 00:06:25.139 into the entire near -death experience field 00:06:25.139 --> 00:06:27.519 and said, well, this is kind of interesting. 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:31.000 But then, and you've interviewed hundreds of 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:33.639 people or more, so you know exactly what I'm 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:36.019 talking about. So I kind of went from, well, 00:06:36.019 --> 00:06:40.540 this is interesting. And honestly, I had initially 00:06:40.540 --> 00:06:42.980 some skepticism on some of the things that I 00:06:42.980 --> 00:06:46.420 was hearing. So you go from skepticism to interesting 00:06:46.420 --> 00:06:49.879 to intriguing. And the more and more that I learned, 00:06:49.899 --> 00:06:52.600 I went all the way over to just acceptance. But 00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:56.560 that was a process. Okay. So let's jump into 00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:59.300 that overall view. What are some of the things 00:06:59.300 --> 00:07:01.279 that you learned that you want to share with 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:05.680 us? Then we'll dial in on them. Right. The most 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:09.560 intriguing thing from the start was the volume 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:12.480 of data, the sheer amount of information that's 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.410 available. And the more I learned about it, you 00:07:15.410 --> 00:07:18.410 realize that there's more and more near -death 00:07:18.410 --> 00:07:22.569 experiences today than there ever has been because 00:07:22.569 --> 00:07:25.889 medicine continues to advance. So there are more, 00:07:25.889 --> 00:07:29.050 I mean, there's more ambulances that arrive because 00:07:29.050 --> 00:07:32.509 of 911. Somebody has some kind of a medical problem. 00:07:33.509 --> 00:07:35.829 There's likely going to be some kind of a response. 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:39.699 In hospital settings, you have the, you know, 00:07:39.819 --> 00:07:42.420 shocking people back to life and medicine available 00:07:42.420 --> 00:07:45.040 and, you know, they understand a lot more now. 00:07:45.779 --> 00:07:48.560 Historically speaking, within the last, I don't 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:51.199 know, 40, 50 years, there's been more and more 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:53.660 near -death experiences every day. And if you 00:07:53.660 --> 00:07:56.060 do the math, I estimate about 25 ,000 a day, 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:58.600 brand new cases globally. That's just my rough 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:01.420 estimate. Based on population, pick a percentage, 00:08:01.899 --> 00:08:03.699 do the math, that's about how many there are. 00:08:04.110 --> 00:08:07.870 By the way, Don, have you talked to Dr. Jeff 00:08:07.870 --> 00:08:11.730 O'Driscoll? No. Okay. He's someone that lives 00:08:11.730 --> 00:08:14.850 in Salt Lake City and I've met him at some ions 00:08:14.850 --> 00:08:18.310 events and I'll set you up with him because he's 00:08:18.310 --> 00:08:22.410 done research on the exact numbers. Okay. And 00:08:22.410 --> 00:08:24.709 made some really good estimates and he's made 00:08:24.709 --> 00:08:28.089 some good observations that you just touched 00:08:28.089 --> 00:08:32.649 on and that is with modern medicine, more people 00:08:32.649 --> 00:08:34.950 are having these experiences. That doesn't mean 00:08:34.950 --> 00:08:38.250 they talk about them more, but especially with 00:08:38.250 --> 00:08:41.909 the, I believe they're called AIDs. So the defibrillators 00:08:41.909 --> 00:08:44.830 that they have everywhere from high school gyms 00:08:44.830 --> 00:08:48.149 to hotels and all over the place now. And with 00:08:48.149 --> 00:08:51.049 those, there are a lot, lot more people living 00:08:51.049 --> 00:08:55.129 after the kind of heart attack that completely 00:08:55.129 --> 00:08:58.110 stops their heart. And he has numbers on the 00:08:58.110 --> 00:08:59.690 whole thing. We'll get him on the show one of 00:08:59.690 --> 00:09:03.080 these days. But he has the numbers and you would 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:06.039 be fascinated with some of those. So we'll get 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:08.440 you connected. Anyway, please keep going with 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:11.340 your thoughts. Well, that was the idea. There 00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:14.679 was just the sheer amount of information that's 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:16.500 available. The other thing that you touched on 00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:19.779 as well about people being not sometimes not 00:09:19.779 --> 00:09:21.799 want to talk about it, because if you just go 00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:24.320 back to the 70s or 80s, people were still thinking, 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:27.620 you know, hey, man, I had this experience. If 00:09:27.620 --> 00:09:29.299 i tell people about it they're gonna think i'm 00:09:29.299 --> 00:09:31.799 looping you know that the the heart attack is 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:34.039 you know got my brain or something you know but 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:36.759 nowadays especially with the internet and shows 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:39.379 like yours there's more and more people that 00:09:39.379 --> 00:09:42.100 are not really afraid or as concerned as they 00:09:42.100 --> 00:09:44.750 used to be about telling their story. And you 00:09:44.750 --> 00:09:46.850 also see a lot where, well, this happened to 00:09:46.850 --> 00:09:48.769 me 40 years ago, and this is the first time I'm 00:09:48.769 --> 00:09:50.490 talking about it, and it's somebody who's 75 00:09:50.490 --> 00:09:53.850 or whatever years old. So it's two things. There's 00:09:53.850 --> 00:09:56.029 more of them occurring, but then there's also 00:09:56.029 --> 00:09:59.370 less of a resistance to just talk about it. Oh, 00:09:59.490 --> 00:10:02.950 absolutely. So tell us about some of your findings. 00:10:03.830 --> 00:10:07.350 OK, so the process that I went through was to 00:10:07.350 --> 00:10:12.149 just basically take a broad stroke approach and 00:10:12.149 --> 00:10:15.330 look for the commonalities. So it got to the 00:10:15.330 --> 00:10:17.889 point where I listened to near -death experiences. 00:10:19.029 --> 00:10:21.809 And honestly, it almost gets boring because you 00:10:21.809 --> 00:10:23.850 know what's going to happen next. First thing 00:10:23.850 --> 00:10:26.230 I always start, what I'm looking for is I'm looking 00:10:26.230 --> 00:10:30.370 for a clinical flatline death or somebody who's 00:10:30.370 --> 00:10:33.850 on the verge of death and who is, let's say, 00:10:33.909 --> 00:10:37.110 in the hospital. uh in hospice or something and 00:10:37.110 --> 00:10:39.570 they have uh they're you know dying from cancer 00:10:39.570 --> 00:10:42.149 or something so they're in those kinds of situations 00:10:42.149 --> 00:10:45.710 that people will kind of go have a near -death 00:10:45.710 --> 00:10:47.190 experience and kind of come back they're kind 00:10:47.190 --> 00:10:49.850 of wavering on the edge so that's my first starting 00:10:49.850 --> 00:10:51.730 point is you know i'm looking i'm not looking 00:10:51.730 --> 00:10:54.149 for somebody who just says you know i woke up 00:10:54.149 --> 00:10:55.889 and i was outside of my body i was like well 00:10:55.889 --> 00:10:57.789 what happened you know let's take a take a step 00:10:57.789 --> 00:11:01.200 back and let's you know What's exactly the situation 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:03.139 that's going on here? So that's the first thing 00:11:03.139 --> 00:11:06.159 I'm looking for is actual, you know, someone 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.440 who meets that situation. The next step is like, 00:11:09.500 --> 00:11:11.620 well, how do these occur? It's like, well, anything 00:11:11.620 --> 00:11:13.700 you could think of, crushed by a car, accident 00:11:13.700 --> 00:11:15.279 went through the window, got hit by lightning, 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:18.100 medical, heart attack, you know what I'm saying? 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:21.419 There's basically lots of ways for this to occur. 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:24.059 Then the next step is to look for the commonalities. 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:27.179 So it's the out of body, it's the into the void 00:11:27.179 --> 00:11:28.799 and then through the tunnel and there's a bright 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:31.720 light white and you meet the energy source and 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:34.299 have a life review when go to the garden and 00:11:34.299 --> 00:11:36.580 meet the ancestors. So these are the these are 00:11:36.580 --> 00:11:40.059 the commonalities that occur. It's almost it's 00:11:40.059 --> 00:11:43.299 ridiculously consistent. And that's what pushed 00:11:43.299 --> 00:11:45.860 me over the top in terms of just flat out acceptance 00:11:45.860 --> 00:11:48.360 of saying this is what happens. And that was 00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:50.940 the start of my process anyway. I'm going to 00:11:50.940 --> 00:11:54.080 play devil's advocate just for a second. I certainly 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:56.419 have that acceptance like you do that these things 00:11:56.419 --> 00:11:59.159 are real. And there are a lot of commonalities, 00:11:59.220 --> 00:12:02.159 but there are also a lot of differences. Did 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:05.500 that throw you off a little bit? No. All right. 00:12:05.700 --> 00:12:08.179 So imagine. So I've kind of thought about that 00:12:08.179 --> 00:12:11.779 a lot. Here's what happens. So let's say I told 00:12:11.779 --> 00:12:15.059 you that, okay, I hopped in my car. I drove to 00:12:15.059 --> 00:12:17.320 the bank. I went to the ATM machine, pulled out 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:20.379 some money. Then I went and stopped at the corner 00:12:20.379 --> 00:12:22.919 and got a hot dog. And then I went to the bowling 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:25.299 alley and bowled a game of, you know, went bowling. 00:12:25.659 --> 00:12:29.120 If you and I both had that same experience, I 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:31.639 would be hopping in my car. I would be going 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:34.879 to my bank. You see what I'm saying? So you can 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:40.220 have differences. And the net effect is exactly 00:12:40.220 --> 00:12:43.679 the same. Go to the bank, get a hot dog, go bowling. 00:12:44.179 --> 00:12:48.639 But the actual experience for each person is 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.200 going to be absolutely unique. You follow me? 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:56.379 So you can have the differences and the consistency 00:12:56.379 --> 00:12:59.480 simultaneously. Both things can be true. And 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:02.240 they are, every time. Even if the experience 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:05.860 was amazingly similar? Like to use your analogy 00:13:05.860 --> 00:13:07.879 if somebody went to the same bowling alley the 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:11.039 same bang the same hot dog They would report 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:13.659 it differently, right? Well, the other that's 00:13:13.659 --> 00:13:16.879 that's another part of it too. Is that I've seen 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:20.399 instances where somebody tells their story and 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.019 they were like, okay This is what it was like 00:13:22.019 --> 00:13:24.259 But then when you have a chance to converse with 00:13:24.259 --> 00:13:26.360 them or either, you know through text messages 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:28.820 or through email or or speaking to them directly 00:13:28.820 --> 00:13:31.120 They'll leave things out sometimes, you know, 00:13:31.179 --> 00:13:32.840 they'll they'll oh, yeah, I forgot to mention 00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:35.460 that it's like, okay But I try not to lead people. 00:13:35.500 --> 00:13:37.659 I just say, did anything else happen? And they 00:13:37.659 --> 00:13:40.379 think about it and they remember more details. 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:42.559 But a lot of times in the first instance, they 00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:44.740 might not remember some stuff. But that happens 00:13:44.740 --> 00:13:48.519 too. Well, and I find that some people, even 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:52.659 if they had an experience 20 years ago, a specific 00:13:52.659 --> 00:13:55.019 question that they haven't heard before or thought 00:13:55.019 --> 00:13:58.220 about before may prompt another memory to come 00:13:58.220 --> 00:14:02.000 back to them. Yep. To you is that more evidence 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:05.159 that it's real or less that it's real? Couple 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:09.940 of things. I have ADHD. It's just part of me 00:14:09.940 --> 00:14:13.620 that that gives me kind of an ability. I mean, 00:14:13.659 --> 00:14:15.120 I don't know if everybody's got this ability 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:19.440 to a certain extent, but I can just tell with 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:23.940 intonation body language. Lexicon word selection 00:14:23.940 --> 00:14:26.259 the way people say things the way that the way 00:14:26.259 --> 00:14:28.720 they talk about it you can tell you can just 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.039 tell when somebody is authentic. At the same 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:33.980 time you can also tell when somebody is making 00:14:33.980 --> 00:14:36.419 it up you know i'm saying let me give you one 00:14:36.419 --> 00:14:39.320 for one for instance there was a young man that 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:42.600 went out and got in his car he was drunk driving 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:44.899 and he crashed his car and he killed somebody 00:14:44.899 --> 00:14:47.940 he's telling his story about an ndt but when 00:14:47.940 --> 00:14:50.429 i'm listening to it i'm like. this is just off, 00:14:50.590 --> 00:14:52.629 it's just wrong, it just doesn't make sense. 00:14:52.909 --> 00:14:54.870 The way he was talking about the words he was 00:14:54.870 --> 00:15:00.210 using, it was just off. It turns out that he 00:15:00.210 --> 00:15:03.549 used his NDE experience, as he told the story, 00:15:03.769 --> 00:15:05.870 that now he's found religion, he's converted, 00:15:05.950 --> 00:15:08.309 and he used that to convince the parole board 00:15:08.309 --> 00:15:11.649 to let him go. So, you know, he had that motivation, 00:15:11.950 --> 00:15:16.059 but I could just tell that it was off. Quick 00:15:16.059 --> 00:15:19.500 shout out to our new sponsor, Squarespace. If 00:15:19.500 --> 00:15:23.059 you need a website, Squarespace is the place 00:15:23.059 --> 00:15:26.240 to do it yourself and do it right. I've been 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:29.799 an entrepreneur for nearly four decades and during 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:33.379 that time have paid web designers thousands and 00:15:33.379 --> 00:15:36.080 thousands of dollars to build websites for me 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:39.879 and my clients but no longer. Squarespace makes 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:43.360 it easy and inexpensive to build your own home 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:45.639 on the internet whether you're right a book, 00:15:46.419 --> 00:15:49.000 starting a side hustle, or own a small business 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:52.519 that needs a website, take it from me with Squarespace. 00:15:52.740 --> 00:15:55.789 You can do it yourself. and it'll turn out great. 00:15:56.049 --> 00:15:59.289 No coding necessary, in fact they have beautiful 00:15:59.289 --> 00:16:01.830 templates so you don't even have to be a graphic 00:16:01.830 --> 00:16:05.389 designer either. SEO tools, shopping cart, it 00:16:05.389 --> 00:16:08.289 is all there and right now they're offering roundtrip 00:16:08.289 --> 00:16:12.289 death listeners a free trial plus with promo 00:16:12.289 --> 00:16:15.889 code roundtrip you'll save 10 % off your first 00:16:15.889 --> 00:16:19.830 purchase of a website or even a domain. I'll 00:16:19.830 --> 00:16:22.149 put a link and the code down in the show notes 00:16:22.149 --> 00:16:25.269 to make it easy. So take a minute right now, 00:16:25.549 --> 00:16:28.870 go to squarespace .com forward slash round trip 00:16:28.870 --> 00:16:32.350 and get started on your own website for free. 00:16:32.830 --> 00:16:35.269 And as a result of that experience, I created 00:16:35.269 --> 00:16:39.230 a kind of an authenticity scoring computer model 00:16:39.230 --> 00:16:43.500 so I can take a script of a conversation, transcript, 00:16:43.899 --> 00:16:45.759 and I can run it through this computer model 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:48.679 and it'll score it from 0 to 100. Because checking 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:51.299 for those things that I was just picking up on 00:16:51.299 --> 00:16:53.740 natively just in the way he was speaking, I decided 00:16:53.740 --> 00:16:56.879 to go ahead and put quantitative measures against 00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:59.840 those things. It works very, very well. The highest 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:01.980 score that I've ever gotten is a 94, and the 00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:05.700 lowest was a 12. So it works. Tell me more about 00:17:05.700 --> 00:17:09.079 that. Okay, so for example, on your website, 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:12.960 the transcripts of your interviews are available. 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:15.420 So I could just go out and grab the transcript, 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:18.099 run it through the computer model, and it will 00:17:18.099 --> 00:17:21.279 measure what's in there and what's not for different 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:24.940 categories of individual data points. And again, 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:26.779 looking for those things that are the most common 00:17:26.779 --> 00:17:28.440 and the most consistent that you can name off 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:30.000 the top of your head without even thinking about 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:31.920 it. If those things are present, well, then it's 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:34.279 more likely to be more authentic. If there's 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:36.500 other things that are missing, then it's not 00:17:36.500 --> 00:17:39.079 the kind of thing that I'm that I'm interested 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:41.420 in. Like, for example, there's lots of people 00:17:41.420 --> 00:17:44.299 out there that will have they'll have basically 00:17:44.299 --> 00:17:48.660 overdoses and they'll have visions or, you know. 00:17:48.670 --> 00:17:51.750 things that occur to them, but it's not associated 00:17:51.750 --> 00:17:54.150 with an actual physical death. It's just the 00:17:54.150 --> 00:17:56.069 drugs talking. So one of the things I've learned 00:17:56.069 --> 00:17:57.789 is that you can drug a brain, but you can't drug 00:17:57.789 --> 00:18:00.609 a soul. So if someone actually crosses over, 00:18:00.710 --> 00:18:02.789 then the drugs are gone and the brain's perfectly 00:18:02.789 --> 00:18:04.930 crystal clear. So there's a difference in the 00:18:04.930 --> 00:18:07.410 way that that story gets told. Yeah, and as you 00:18:07.410 --> 00:18:09.349 know, I've asked a lot of people that have been 00:18:09.349 --> 00:18:12.130 in that situation, how do you know that this 00:18:12.130 --> 00:18:14.910 wasn't just some kind of drug trip? And what's 00:18:14.910 --> 00:18:18.529 the answer? Well, the answer is what I said just 00:18:18.529 --> 00:18:21.410 a moment ago that you can drug a brain, but you 00:18:21.410 --> 00:18:25.049 cannot drug a soul. So like, for example, when 00:18:25.049 --> 00:18:27.190 people die and they cross over, let's say they 00:18:27.190 --> 00:18:29.549 get crushed by a truck or something. Well, the 00:18:29.549 --> 00:18:32.329 pain's gone because the soul has no nerve endings. 00:18:32.950 --> 00:18:35.250 So your hearing gets better. Your sight gets 00:18:35.250 --> 00:18:38.069 better. Your brain is super clear. There's nothing 00:18:38.069 --> 00:18:40.190 fogging your brain at all. You could literally 00:18:40.190 --> 00:18:42.230 take enough drugs to overdose, and this happens 00:18:42.230 --> 00:18:45.230 all the time. But then as soon as you cross over, 00:18:45.369 --> 00:18:49.130 all of that drug effect is completely gone. Okay, 00:18:49.130 --> 00:18:50.869 as long as we're talking about this computer 00:18:50.869 --> 00:18:53.369 model that you've come up with, let me mention 00:18:53.369 --> 00:18:58.230 something. That is that on YouTube, it's really 00:18:58.230 --> 00:19:01.529 easy for people to comment, okay? If they're 00:19:01.529 --> 00:19:04.049 watching the video versus listening to the audio 00:19:04.049 --> 00:19:06.690 version, it's super easy to just type a comment 00:19:06.690 --> 00:19:09.089 down there. And every once in a while, someone 00:19:09.089 --> 00:19:12.490 will type, oh, I believed it until they said 00:19:12.490 --> 00:19:16.230 X. And then I don't believe him anymore. They 00:19:16.230 --> 00:19:18.190 said they had written a book, so they're making 00:19:18.190 --> 00:19:21.150 money on it. Or they said this or that that just 00:19:21.150 --> 00:19:25.109 didn't jive with me. Therefore, I think they 00:19:25.109 --> 00:19:27.849 made the thing up. What advice do you have for 00:19:27.849 --> 00:19:31.690 people like that? Listen to more than one. Listen 00:19:31.690 --> 00:19:34.690 to a thousand. Listen to ten thousand. Listen 00:19:34.690 --> 00:19:37.130 to everything you can get your hands on. And 00:19:37.130 --> 00:19:41.099 you'll find that in the bulk. not just one or 00:19:41.099 --> 00:19:43.740 two or ten or a hundred, in the bulk, when you're 00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:46.559 looking at thousands if not, I mean potentially 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.920 millions or even a billion near -death experiences 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:53.519 told by humans throughout human history, that 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.700 when you look at that bulk of data, then you 00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:59.559 sort out the individual things that don't jive 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:02.160 with what your preconceived notions were. But 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:05.259 these people a lot, most of them believe in NDEs, 00:20:05.259 --> 00:20:07.740 they just don't believe that particular person. 00:20:08.299 --> 00:20:10.759 Well that's fine. How do people know if that 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:13.019 particular person's telling the truth or not? 00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:16.920 Well, again, that's a personal choice. And the 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:20.140 other thing is that the one thing that I would 00:20:20.140 --> 00:20:21.920 look for in that case is what's that outside 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.700 motivation? So let me tell you about my friend 00:20:24.700 --> 00:20:27.740 Frank. So Frank is a good buddy of mine, and 00:20:27.740 --> 00:20:30.059 he lives out in Arizona. We were in the military 00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:33.059 together. And he's an evangelical Christian, 00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:35.720 and he spends his time, now that he's retired 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:38.529 from the military, he spends his time volunteering 00:20:38.529 --> 00:20:40.930 at soup kitchens, and he's out there trying to 00:20:40.930 --> 00:20:43.930 find people one at a time that he can like find 00:20:43.930 --> 00:20:46.750 one person that he can talk to, that he can help 00:20:46.750 --> 00:20:49.289 to overcome whatever challenges that they're 00:20:49.289 --> 00:20:52.410 dealing with. He told me he's like when I first 00:20:52.410 --> 00:20:54.890 started looking into NDEs, I said, Hey, Frank, 00:20:54.930 --> 00:20:57.190 this is what I'm doing. And he goes, Oh, yeah, 00:20:57.210 --> 00:20:59.170 people send me those all the time. He says, I 00:20:59.170 --> 00:21:00.990 don't I don't believe in it. So what are you 00:21:00.990 --> 00:21:03.210 talking about? So what it turns out that when 00:21:03.210 --> 00:21:06.720 I questioned him about it, that there is an entire 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:10.539 subset of people who are trying to push an agenda 00:21:10.539 --> 00:21:12.880 or who have a pre -scribed bias that they're 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:16.400 trying to. So they'll take a little short clip 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:19.720 of an NDE interview and they'll just play that 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:23.039 clip and then cut that guy out of the conversation 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:25.779 and then go into their own diatribe, trying to 00:21:25.779 --> 00:21:28.799 spin it to support their preconceived notions. 00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:31.960 So I was like, oh, okay, that's an entire subset 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:34.819 of the stuff that's out there in the NDE space. 00:21:35.150 --> 00:21:38.670 So I ran into that as well. Let me just say that, 00:21:38.809 --> 00:21:42.289 just from a personal note here, the people that 00:21:42.289 --> 00:21:45.569 I have on this show, the vast, vast majority 00:21:45.569 --> 00:21:49.670 I believe, I don't always believe every single 00:21:49.670 --> 00:21:53.470 word that they say, but I believe the majority 00:21:53.470 --> 00:21:57.029 of what they say. It's hard to know whether we 00:21:57.029 --> 00:22:00.160 can believe every single word or not. But for 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.660 those that think just because somebody might 00:22:02.660 --> 00:22:05.599 make some money on a book, that does not mean 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:08.000 that their experience didn't happen and isn't 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:11.859 real. Lots of people that have had NDEs that 00:22:11.859 --> 00:22:15.319 I consider a thousand percent real have written 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:17.740 a book because they just want to express it. 00:22:17.980 --> 00:22:21.700 They want some way to just tell it and get it 00:22:21.700 --> 00:22:25.059 off their chest. It's therapeutic. And most people 00:22:25.059 --> 00:22:27.119 that write these books never make any money at 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:30.309 all. That's really just a small percentage that 00:22:30.309 --> 00:22:33.829 do, so please don't use that against people. 00:22:34.549 --> 00:22:36.730 I know I'm not talking to you, I'm talking to 00:22:36.730 --> 00:22:38.930 listeners. Talking to people in general? Yeah. 00:22:39.190 --> 00:22:41.809 Yeah, not you. You mentioned a word a minute 00:22:41.809 --> 00:22:46.009 ago, the word soul. Tell me what you believe 00:22:46.009 --> 00:22:49.349 that word means. Speaking of books, there's an 00:22:49.349 --> 00:22:51.950 entire chapter in my book about that specific 00:22:51.950 --> 00:23:00.539 issue that's one of the concepts that You can't 00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:03.740 talk about NDEs without talking about a soul 00:23:03.740 --> 00:23:05.779 or a spirit or a consciousness that continues 00:23:05.779 --> 00:23:08.920 after death. That's what it is that we're talking 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:11.960 about. That's what continues after death. Well, 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:14.019 anyway, just answer your question to stay on 00:23:14.019 --> 00:23:16.160 track. That's what I believe it is. It is the 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:18.339 part of your consciousness that continues after 00:23:18.339 --> 00:23:22.079 the physical body, either permanently or temporarily, 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:24.480 can no longer sustain life. So that's where the 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:26.339 out -of -body experience starts, and then off 00:23:26.339 --> 00:23:28.960 you go from there. By the way, I don't mind you 00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:31.259 mentioning your book. To me, it doesn't blow 00:23:31.259 --> 00:23:36.160 your credibility. God's first language. No, I 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:39.059 actually changed the title. Oh, no. What is it 00:23:39.059 --> 00:23:43.019 called now? Yeah, because I'm doing some A -B 00:23:43.019 --> 00:23:45.279 testing on it. It's out as an e -book. I just 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:48.339 put it out as a paperback. It's now called So 00:23:48.339 --> 00:23:50.480 You're Gonna Die Someday, right? You know, that's 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:52.759 the trying to be a little bit more, I don't know, 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:55.930 maybe commercial or... Then the subtitle is that 00:23:55.930 --> 00:23:58.049 near -death experiences reveal what happens next. 00:23:58.210 --> 00:24:00.630 So that's the idea. So the one thing that we 00:24:00.630 --> 00:24:03.569 all have in common as people, and the also that 00:24:03.569 --> 00:24:05.890 we also happen to have in common with every living 00:24:05.890 --> 00:24:08.329 thing on the planet, is that if you have life 00:24:08.329 --> 00:24:10.390 sooner or later, that's going to end. We all 00:24:10.390 --> 00:24:12.190 have an expiration date. We just don't know when 00:24:12.190 --> 00:24:14.890 that is. And everybody wants to know what happens 00:24:14.890 --> 00:24:18.210 after we die. So the God's first language When 00:24:18.210 --> 00:24:21.769 I first wrote the book, the one concept that 00:24:21.769 --> 00:24:24.230 is in there that I don't think has really been 00:24:24.230 --> 00:24:26.549 talked about much at all, I couldn't find anything 00:24:26.549 --> 00:24:30.769 on it at all, the idea that 300 ,000 years of 00:24:30.769 --> 00:24:33.930 human history, and over that period of time, 00:24:34.190 --> 00:24:36.750 a percentage of those people, even if it's a 00:24:36.750 --> 00:24:39.970 very small number of people, will have had some 00:24:39.970 --> 00:24:41.490 kind of near -death experience. So if they're 00:24:41.490 --> 00:24:44.109 happening to us now, of course in much greater 00:24:44.109 --> 00:24:45.829 numbers because of the medical stuff we talked 00:24:45.829 --> 00:24:49.650 about before, It is my belief that that is where 00:24:49.650 --> 00:24:54.869 the original concepts of an afterlife, a soul, 00:24:55.630 --> 00:24:59.190 heaven, God, reincarnation, that that's where 00:24:59.190 --> 00:25:02.009 these, the life review, that that's where these 00:25:02.009 --> 00:25:05.509 concepts come from. And if you look around the 00:25:05.509 --> 00:25:08.130 planet and if you just Kind of in your brain 00:25:08.130 --> 00:25:10.890 hold the hold the globe in your hand and then 00:25:10.890 --> 00:25:13.509 you you realize that these stories have been 00:25:13.509 --> 00:25:18.170 raining down on humanity for 300 ,000 years and 00:25:18.170 --> 00:25:21.450 putting that in context Rating was just invented 00:25:21.450 --> 00:25:26.650 5 ,000 years ago, right? So 295 ,000 years with 00:25:26.650 --> 00:25:28.670 oral history. That's it people telling stories 00:25:28.670 --> 00:25:32.210 around a campfire and the near -death experience 00:25:32.210 --> 00:25:36.369 story is gonna be the most interesting and different 00:25:36.369 --> 00:25:38.670 story that anybody can tell around a campfire. 00:25:39.069 --> 00:25:41.390 So if that happened in your little clan of maybe 00:25:41.390 --> 00:25:43.809 20 or 30 hunter -gatherers, well, that's going 00:25:43.809 --> 00:25:45.609 to be the most interesting story that anybody 00:25:45.609 --> 00:25:48.589 ever heard. Then that gets told over time, over 00:25:48.589 --> 00:25:50.950 thousands and thousands of years. And then out 00:25:50.950 --> 00:25:54.690 of the blue at about 120 ,000 years ago, we start 00:25:54.690 --> 00:25:57.009 burying people with ritualistic burials. Compare 00:25:57.009 --> 00:26:01.289 that to the Denisovans who went... 400 ,000 years 00:26:01.289 --> 00:26:03.369 and never buried anybody. I don't want to get 00:26:03.369 --> 00:26:05.430 too geeky on you, but that's all that stuff's 00:26:05.430 --> 00:26:09.210 what's in the book. So that's the idea is that 00:26:09.210 --> 00:26:12.750 ancient near -death experiences resulted in the 00:26:12.750 --> 00:26:17.049 concepts of afterlife, soul, God, and all those 00:26:17.049 --> 00:26:19.769 other things. Where does religion come into that? 00:26:20.509 --> 00:26:22.930 Very good question. So are you familiar with 00:26:22.930 --> 00:26:27.009 Jainism by any chance? J -A -I -N -I -S -M, Jainism. 00:26:27.529 --> 00:26:30.809 So it's in... India, just a couple of provinces 00:26:30.809 --> 00:26:33.529 in the northeast part of India, and it's the 00:26:33.529 --> 00:26:36.289 seed cosmology for both Buddhism and Hinduism. 00:26:36.710 --> 00:26:39.329 And if you look at what they believe and how 00:26:39.329 --> 00:26:40.750 they do things, there's only about a million 00:26:40.750 --> 00:26:43.329 people practicing this religion. It's practically 00:26:43.329 --> 00:26:46.029 a photocopy of near -death experience. It's like 00:26:46.029 --> 00:26:49.430 if somebody just listened to us and said, okay, 00:26:49.470 --> 00:26:51.849 let's make a religion about this, that's Jainism. 00:26:52.289 --> 00:26:55.700 So if you start with the fundamentals, of what 00:26:55.700 --> 00:26:59.480 you learn from NDEs. And then the problem becomes 00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:02.839 when you try to turn that into a religion, you 00:27:02.839 --> 00:27:05.960 need to make it a franchise that has elements 00:27:05.960 --> 00:27:10.099 that can grow your church, basically. I say that 00:27:10.099 --> 00:27:12.819 all religions basically get a C minus in terms 00:27:12.819 --> 00:27:16.559 of, you know, if NDEs are true and accurate and 00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:18.880 factual, well, then everybody kind of gets it 00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:21.279 kind of right and kind of wrong. And here's the 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:23.339 Trump card. I love having this card in my back 00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:25.940 pocket. And I want to say that up front. And 00:27:25.940 --> 00:27:30.000 I have no interest at all in trying to make anybody 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:32.920 believe anything. I think everybody who is religious 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:36.039 in any way whatsoever, just fine, have at it. 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.359 Just want to make sure it doesn't matter. What 00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:42.119 I'm trying to say is that I've come to the conclusion 00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:44.859 that the same thing happens to each of us when 00:27:44.859 --> 00:27:48.240 we die, regardless of whatever it is that you 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:51.200 believed before you die. So there's all kinds 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:54.559 of cases, for example, of an orthodox atheist, 00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:57.000 okay, someone who is absolutely, nope, you're 00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:58.480 dead, you go on the ground, the worms eat you, 00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:01.279 that's it. And then they come back going, okay, 00:28:01.460 --> 00:28:03.140 well, when I had my near -death experience prior 00:28:03.140 --> 00:28:05.619 to that, I was an absolute atheist, but now I've 00:28:05.619 --> 00:28:07.660 changed. There are people who believe any one 00:28:07.660 --> 00:28:09.500 particular religion, let's say, for example, 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:11.740 Catholicism. And they're surprised to find out 00:28:11.740 --> 00:28:14.480 that, well, hey, reincarnation is a thing. So 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:17.119 that kind of thing happens all the time where 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:19.279 people have preconceived notions before they 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:20.819 have a near -death experience and then after 00:28:20.819 --> 00:28:23.380 they have a near -death experience, their thoughts 00:28:23.380 --> 00:28:26.400 have changed on that. What about those that have 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:30.279 hellish -type experiences? So that's interesting. 00:28:30.980 --> 00:28:34.519 So what I've been able to determine on that, 00:28:34.660 --> 00:28:36.980 and again through my research or the conclusions 00:28:36.980 --> 00:28:39.960 that I've come to, is that there was... Let me 00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:42.119 give you one, for instance. There was a woman 00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.420 who was a drug addict. She had a couple of children 00:28:45.420 --> 00:28:48.220 and they were young children. She just decided, 00:28:48.299 --> 00:28:51.740 you know what, that's it. I'm done. And she intentionally 00:28:51.740 --> 00:28:55.220 overdosed. And as part of her overdose experience, 00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:58.309 she had a near death experience. During her life 00:28:58.309 --> 00:29:00.950 review phase of the near -death experience, she 00:29:00.950 --> 00:29:02.630 was, you know how it goes, you get the whole 00:29:02.630 --> 00:29:04.589 thing downloaded all at once, but then you go 00:29:04.589 --> 00:29:07.869 through and you can see and feel both sides of 00:29:07.869 --> 00:29:09.990 the conversation for every interaction that you've 00:29:09.990 --> 00:29:13.750 ever had. She had to, not had to, but she did, 00:29:14.049 --> 00:29:16.769 was able to relive or replay all of those experiences 00:29:16.769 --> 00:29:19.430 where all of the bad things that she did to other 00:29:19.430 --> 00:29:22.329 people. And as she was describing that process, 00:29:22.470 --> 00:29:24.990 she said at least four or five different times, 00:29:25.130 --> 00:29:28.930 I was in hell. It was like hell. I was going 00:29:28.930 --> 00:29:32.029 through hell. It was hell, hell, hell. All of 00:29:32.029 --> 00:29:35.569 those references as it pertained to her. life 00:29:35.569 --> 00:29:37.890 review. There was more of those like that as 00:29:37.890 --> 00:29:40.589 well. It's like people who bad did bad things, 00:29:40.730 --> 00:29:42.630 but were forced to confront them or they confronted 00:29:42.630 --> 00:29:44.369 them as part of their near, but it, but it was 00:29:44.369 --> 00:29:46.990 in a learning setting. You know, it was the idea 00:29:46.990 --> 00:29:48.829 was you're not, we're not here to judge or punish. 00:29:48.910 --> 00:29:51.210 You're just here to, you know, cause that's kind 00:29:51.210 --> 00:29:53.289 of why we all come here anyway. We're here to 00:29:53.289 --> 00:29:56.930 learn. This is earth is kind of like a college 00:29:56.930 --> 00:29:59.089 or something. You know, you get your NDE PhD 00:29:59.089 --> 00:30:00.849 and you graduate and be a spirit guide, I guess. 00:30:01.019 --> 00:30:05.059 That's the plan. So that's my take on the hellish 00:30:05.059 --> 00:30:07.019 experience. I've come to the conclusion that 00:30:07.019 --> 00:30:09.099 hell does not exist. I've come to the conclusion 00:30:09.099 --> 00:30:11.900 that that's just a manufactured element by humans 00:30:11.900 --> 00:30:15.960 for religion. Okay. Let's say that I'm someone 00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:19.799 that doesn't know what to believe out there. 00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:22.240 I don't know if there's an afterlife. I don't 00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:25.059 know if I should care. I don't know what that 00:30:25.059 --> 00:30:28.500 has to do with my life now. Give me some overall 00:30:28.500 --> 00:30:32.359 takeaways. Well, A very good, a very good example 00:30:32.359 --> 00:30:36.400 is my father. So he never, he's never been a 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:38.880 religious person at all, but he just lived his 00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:41.599 life as do the right thing. You know the difference 00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:44.380 from right from wrong. And you do the right thing 00:30:44.380 --> 00:30:46.500 every time, even if nobody's watching. And if 00:30:46.500 --> 00:30:48.740 you have no chance of ever getting caught, you 00:30:48.740 --> 00:30:51.819 just do the right thing period. And then just 00:30:51.819 --> 00:30:53.640 treat people the way you want to be treated. 00:30:53.880 --> 00:30:56.839 Just be nice, be kind, be generous, be respectful 00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:00.160 and courteous. That's just the way he lived his 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:02.640 life. Just as a result of that, his life review 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:04.759 was going to be a walk in the park. You know, 00:31:04.759 --> 00:31:07.200 it's going to be a piece of cake. So if you don't 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:08.900 have anything weighing on your conscience like 00:31:08.900 --> 00:31:10.740 that, then you don't have anything to worry about 00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:13.720 whatsoever. If you don't know what you think 00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:17.180 with regards to what happens after we die, then 00:31:17.180 --> 00:31:19.799 that's fine, too. And again, I go back to the 00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.029 Trump card. It doesn't matter what you believe 00:31:22.029 --> 00:31:24.089 here on the planet because you're going to find 00:31:24.089 --> 00:31:26.089 out because the same thing happens to everybody, 00:31:26.309 --> 00:31:28.730 no matter what, doesn't matter culture, background, 00:31:29.750 --> 00:31:33.450 religion, language, location on the planet. The 00:31:33.450 --> 00:31:35.369 same thing happens to everybody because the reports 00:31:35.369 --> 00:31:38.369 are universal, regardless of language. All right. 00:31:38.529 --> 00:31:40.630 I want to get your opinion on something that 00:31:40.630 --> 00:31:43.430 I'm going to just throw out there because not 00:31:43.430 --> 00:31:45.130 only have I interviewed a lot of people, but 00:31:45.130 --> 00:31:48.309 I've spent a lot of years thinking about this 00:31:48.309 --> 00:31:51.569 topic. And one of the conclusions that I've come 00:31:51.569 --> 00:31:55.190 to is that when people have a near -death experience, 00:31:56.190 --> 00:31:59.970 they are seeing or experiencing just a teeny 00:31:59.970 --> 00:32:03.069 tiny glimpse of what the afterlife is going to 00:32:03.069 --> 00:32:06.130 be like. You're nodding your head. You must agree 00:32:06.130 --> 00:32:10.069 with that as well. Do you think because they're 00:32:10.069 --> 00:32:13.740 only seeing that little glimpse that There's 00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:16.299 a whole, obviously, there's a whole lot more 00:32:16.299 --> 00:32:19.819 that they're not seeing and experiencing. Can 00:32:19.819 --> 00:32:23.259 that throw us off a little bit? Absolutely. It 00:32:23.259 --> 00:32:25.460 absolutely does. You're right on the money there. 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:27.900 Think about walking into Disney World, but you 00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:31.380 don't get past the turnstile. There's a boundary 00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:35.299 issue. So there's an entire subset of people 00:32:35.299 --> 00:32:38.140 who had their near -death experience. They cross 00:32:38.140 --> 00:32:41.700 over. They go through the process, through the 00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:45.250 tunnel. the white light, the life review, the 00:32:45.250 --> 00:32:49.069 ancestors. But then there's a boundary element 00:32:49.069 --> 00:32:51.990 that they're basically told that, okay, so you 00:32:51.990 --> 00:32:54.430 got to stop right there. Because if you go any 00:32:54.430 --> 00:32:56.930 farther, there's no coming back. And your body 00:32:56.930 --> 00:32:59.309 is still viable, you've got things to do, you've 00:32:59.309 --> 00:33:02.329 got things left to do in your life. So they're 00:33:02.329 --> 00:33:06.069 basically encouraged to go back. But that boundary 00:33:06.069 --> 00:33:08.890 is there. And that comes up all the time, not 00:33:08.890 --> 00:33:10.890 all the time, not 100%, but I know what the number 00:33:10.890 --> 00:33:15.630 is. But there's a It's a frequent mention. And 00:33:15.630 --> 00:33:18.309 again, if somebody hits that boundary and keeps 00:33:18.309 --> 00:33:20.609 going, you're not going to be interviewing them 00:33:20.609 --> 00:33:23.930 because they didn't come back. That's part of 00:33:23.930 --> 00:33:25.390 the elements that come up in the interviews. 00:33:26.230 --> 00:33:29.230 Yeah, I often wonder of those that say that they 00:33:29.230 --> 00:33:32.049 had a choice of whether to come back or not, 00:33:32.529 --> 00:33:34.789 which is the majority. There are a few that are 00:33:34.789 --> 00:33:37.309 just told you're going back, but the majority 00:33:37.309 --> 00:33:39.329 have some kind of a choice. They may be talked 00:33:39.329 --> 00:33:42.440 into the decision, but they have a choice. And 00:33:42.440 --> 00:33:45.619 I believe that that agency that freedom of choice 00:33:45.619 --> 00:33:49.079 is a huge part of what the next life is all about. 00:33:49.740 --> 00:33:52.519 As well as this life for that matter but the 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:57.180 point was. I often wonder how many people when 00:33:57.180 --> 00:33:59.380 they were given a choice that while I'm staying. 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:04.460 And we never do hear from them is it ninety percent 00:34:04.460 --> 00:34:09.219 is it fifty percent yet we have no idea. Yeah 00:34:09.219 --> 00:34:13.010 I thought about that as well. consider somebody 00:34:13.010 --> 00:34:17.190 who's in some kind of a very dramatic kinetic 00:34:17.190 --> 00:34:19.789 death where their body is destroyed to the point 00:34:19.789 --> 00:34:22.309 of no return. So coming back is not a choice 00:34:22.309 --> 00:34:24.730 for them at all. So in that case, their free 00:34:24.730 --> 00:34:27.829 will is removed. There is a chapter in my book 00:34:27.829 --> 00:34:30.809 that's about free will and how free will is something 00:34:30.809 --> 00:34:32.989 that crosses over from here to there. There's 00:34:32.989 --> 00:34:34.449 not a lot of things that cross over from here 00:34:34.449 --> 00:34:36.829 to there, but I believe that's one of them. And 00:34:36.829 --> 00:34:39.650 one thing that I see all the time is that people 00:34:39.650 --> 00:34:42.690 will say, They'll start off an interview by saying, 00:34:42.889 --> 00:34:45.110 I was told I had to come back. And it sounds 00:34:45.110 --> 00:34:47.849 like they were commanded to come back. But then 00:34:47.849 --> 00:34:49.969 when you get further into the interview, it'll 00:34:49.969 --> 00:34:54.250 be like, well, I wanted to stay. It was so nice 00:34:54.250 --> 00:34:57.369 there. I didn't want to go back. There's no pain. 00:34:57.929 --> 00:34:59.710 I was suffering, you know, whenever I had my 00:34:59.710 --> 00:35:01.369 accident or whatever the problem is, for the 00:35:01.369 --> 00:35:02.949 reason why the person died, maybe they're ill. 00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:06.420 But pain is gone. All my worries are gone. Why 00:35:06.420 --> 00:35:08.960 would I ever want to go back there? But then 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:11.460 there's this conversation of, well, you've got 00:35:11.460 --> 00:35:13.619 things to do and here's your life plan. This 00:35:13.619 --> 00:35:16.019 is what you laid out for yourself. And you've 00:35:16.019 --> 00:35:18.000 got your family and you've got these other things 00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:20.639 that you wanted to accomplish. And then they'll 00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:24.320 say, and then eventually they'll frame it in 00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:26.139 such a way that they indicate that I decided 00:35:26.139 --> 00:35:29.179 to go back. And that happens very, very frequently. 00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:32.239 I have seen in near -death experiences that are 00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:35.099 very, very brief. For example, there was a guy 00:35:35.099 --> 00:35:37.519 that was in an operating room and something happened 00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:40.880 during the operation and he went flat -lined 00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:44.119 dead and he had a very brief, like in -and -out 00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:46.219 almost experience that he did an out -of -body 00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:48.380 and then there was a spirit guide right next 00:35:48.380 --> 00:35:51.639 to him. And it was very, very short. He's like, 00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:53.139 oh, I'm out of my body. I'm looking around. What 00:35:53.139 --> 00:35:54.760 the heck's going on? He's like, oh, is that me? 00:35:54.820 --> 00:35:56.699 Am I dead? And then there's a spirit guide right 00:35:56.699 --> 00:35:58.960 next to him. And then it's like shot clear. Wow. 00:35:59.019 --> 00:36:02.059 And then bang, he's back in his body. So in that 00:36:02.059 --> 00:36:04.059 case, he didn't even have a chance to go. But 00:36:04.059 --> 00:36:07.119 it's like, nope, you're back. So in that case, 00:36:07.260 --> 00:36:10.320 there's no real decision there. But that whole 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:12.960 choice of free will, I find to be incredibly 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:16.150 interesting. It's a recurring element. It's very, 00:36:16.150 --> 00:36:19.150 very frequent. It's not unusual at all. That 00:36:19.150 --> 00:36:22.090 process that I described of starting off with, 00:36:22.230 --> 00:36:23.949 I was, you know, when they're first telling the 00:36:23.949 --> 00:36:25.969 story as I was made to go back or I was commanded 00:36:25.969 --> 00:36:27.969 to go back. But when you look into it a little 00:36:27.969 --> 00:36:31.309 bit deeper, that very often the really what happened 00:36:31.309 --> 00:36:34.429 was they decided to come back. And to your point, 00:36:34.510 --> 00:36:36.309 yeah, if somebody says, Nope, I'm not going back. 00:36:36.309 --> 00:36:38.909 That's it. Well, then free will also exists there. 00:36:39.150 --> 00:36:41.409 And then that person just never comes back to 00:36:41.409 --> 00:36:45.320 life. Yeah. That free will, I believe, is really 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:49.579 one of the eternal laws of the universe. And 00:36:49.579 --> 00:36:52.820 for those that believe in God, I believe it's 00:36:52.820 --> 00:36:55.940 something that He lives by as well. Yeah, I just 00:36:55.940 --> 00:36:57.659 think it's just the way the, I think it's just 00:36:57.659 --> 00:36:59.960 the, one of the rules in the back of the monopoly 00:36:59.960 --> 00:37:01.280 box, you know what I'm saying? It's just, it's 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:03.260 always there, it's always on. And if you think 00:37:03.260 --> 00:37:06.400 about it, even in life, you always have a choice. 00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:09.619 even if you have a bad choice, you have the lesser 00:37:09.619 --> 00:37:12.460 of two equals kind of a scenario, at every time 00:37:12.460 --> 00:37:15.960 you always pick one or the other between different 00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:17.920 routes and different ways to proceed forward. 00:37:18.699 --> 00:37:20.500 So I think free will is always on. It's like 00:37:20.500 --> 00:37:24.179 gravity. Absolutely. Okay, just a couple more 00:37:24.179 --> 00:37:27.739 questions. One is, what kind of message of hope 00:37:27.739 --> 00:37:31.269 can people have from all of this? I think that 00:37:31.269 --> 00:37:35.309 there's kind of a spiritual awakening going on, 00:37:35.630 --> 00:37:38.449 kind of more of an authentic, just because I've 00:37:38.449 --> 00:37:40.710 been changed by this experience of the more I 00:37:40.710 --> 00:37:43.190 learn about NBEs. I mean, I'm talking personally, 00:37:43.829 --> 00:37:46.690 me, that the way I go about my day -to -day life 00:37:46.690 --> 00:37:50.809 now. So when I go out to go to the ATM or to 00:37:50.809 --> 00:37:52.389 the bank or to go get a hot dog or go bowling 00:37:52.389 --> 00:37:54.269 or whatever, when I'm just going through life, 00:37:54.780 --> 00:37:57.920 I make it my point to put a smile on somebody's 00:37:57.920 --> 00:38:00.460 face every day, no matter what, with just interactions 00:38:00.460 --> 00:38:03.579 of people on the street. Just be nice. You know, 00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:06.500 now there's also a lot there. If you look at 00:38:06.500 --> 00:38:08.519 a lot of the especially like Facebook groups 00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:10.820 and some of the things on Reddit and stuff, that 00:38:10.820 --> 00:38:13.460 there's a lot of people that are on those groups 00:38:13.460 --> 00:38:15.659 looking for answers because a loved one passed 00:38:15.659 --> 00:38:19.039 away. So that's the grief process. That's another 00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:21.869 another significant angle there. There's another 00:38:21.869 --> 00:38:23.989 chapter in my book which is like, grandma really 00:38:23.989 --> 00:38:25.750 is in a better place, you know? It's like, so 00:38:25.750 --> 00:38:28.050 that's what you're told when you're a kid. It's 00:38:28.050 --> 00:38:30.010 like, well, turns out that's kind of true, you 00:38:30.010 --> 00:38:32.769 know? The whole point is to learn and to grow 00:38:32.769 --> 00:38:36.650 and to just, you know, be a better person, you 00:38:36.650 --> 00:38:38.170 know? And that's kind of like why we're here. 00:38:39.010 --> 00:38:41.170 All right. Here's something else on a personal 00:38:41.170 --> 00:38:43.429 note. You've listened to the show. You know, 00:38:43.429 --> 00:38:46.769 I often ask people that have had an experience 00:38:46.769 --> 00:38:49.659 like this. what their level of fear of death 00:38:49.659 --> 00:38:54.380 is after it, and it's generally zero. You haven't 00:38:54.380 --> 00:38:57.800 been through near -death experience, but you 00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:03.440 have the logical conscience, or conscious, I 00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:07.199 should say, viewpoint of, yes, these things are 00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:10.099 real, which means I'm going to be in some form 00:39:10.099 --> 00:39:14.940 living after my physical body dies. But how much 00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:18.239 fear or concern about death is there still with 00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:23.699 you, Don? For me? None. None whatsoever. None. 00:39:23.739 --> 00:39:26.739 Not even a smidgen. I'm not concerned at all. 00:39:27.460 --> 00:39:29.760 I don't care. I know, I mean, I'm not worried 00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:31.900 about it. Why should I worry about it? Because 00:39:31.900 --> 00:39:33.699 if I'm going to die, there's, I mean, you're 00:39:33.699 --> 00:39:35.280 talking to somebody who's had four heart attacks, 00:39:35.579 --> 00:39:38.219 open heart surgery, six different catheterizations. 00:39:38.750 --> 00:39:40.969 five stents placed at my heart. I had my first 00:39:40.969 --> 00:39:44.409 heart attack at 38 years old. I don't know what 00:39:44.409 --> 00:39:46.429 the expiration is on the back of my neck because 00:39:46.429 --> 00:39:48.650 I can't see it, but I don't know when it is, 00:39:48.730 --> 00:39:51.030 but I'm not worried about it. So if it's going 00:39:51.030 --> 00:39:53.230 to happen, that's the other thing too. It's inevitable. 00:39:53.969 --> 00:39:56.610 Everybody dies sometime. So you might as well 00:39:56.610 --> 00:39:59.030 just enjoy the ride while you're here and not 00:39:59.030 --> 00:40:02.570 sweat it too much and just do the best you can 00:40:02.570 --> 00:40:04.309 by everybody while you're on the planet. That's 00:40:04.309 --> 00:40:07.989 just my take. Well said, my friend. Don Winner, 00:40:08.389 --> 00:40:10.309 thanks a ton for being with me today. It's been 00:40:10.309 --> 00:40:14.170 fun. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, anytime. 00:40:15.190 --> 00:40:18.829 I really enjoyed it. Appreciate you. Thanks again 00:40:18.829 --> 00:40:21.429 for listening and sharing this podcast. Don't 00:40:21.429 --> 00:40:23.650 forget to hit the follow or subscribe button 00:40:23.650 --> 00:40:26.090 and sign up for our newsletter at roundtripdeath 00:40:26.090 --> 00:40:29.599 .com. If you want to share your near -death experience, 00:40:30.139 --> 00:40:31.880 or if you have questions or comments about the 00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:34.760 show, send an email to eric at roundtripdeath 00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:37.940 .com. Until then, I wish you everything good 00:40:37.940 --> 00:40:40.260 that you're looking for in this life and the 00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:40.639 next.