1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,400 From the time that they pronounced me deaf was a good 45 minutes. 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,440 They cut my clothes and then they paddled my heart, my heart had stopped. 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,120 And I could see people screaming and crying, but I didn't realize that was actually my 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,320 physical body because I was somewhere else. 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:27,400 The only thing that I could feel, if you could imagine, absolute love and peace, there wasn't 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,400 anything else to be felt. 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,560 I was greeted by people I'd known in the past. 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,160 I'm back home again. 9 00:00:34,160 --> 00:00:38,840 Incredibly safe and felt at home. 10 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:44,080 Welcome, welcome to RoundTripDest everybody and I'd like to welcome our super happy special 11 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,360 guest today, Catherine Avery. 12 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:47,880 How are you Catherine? 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,080 I'm great, how are you? 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:51,440 I'm good. 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,560 It is an absolutely beautiful fall day out there. 16 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,440 And I know you live not too far from me, so would you second that opinion? 17 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:00,880 Yeah, I love it. 18 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:05,480 The sky is extremely blue today and I see some snow on the mountains, so we're good. 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,840 Well we're going to get into your near-death experience in just a minute, but I would love 20 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,920 for our audience to get to know you briefly. 21 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,560 So who is Catherine? 22 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:16,560 What do you do? 23 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:17,560 What do you love about life? 24 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,000 Well, I come from a bigger family. 25 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:26,760 I'm number two of seven siblings and that is quite a lot of my identity actually. 26 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,720 I moved not too many years ago to be closer to all of them again. 27 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,840 We grew up pretty close to each other and I do a lot with them these days. 28 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,720 I am a big reader, love to get to know people. 29 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:39,560 I'm a chatter. 30 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:45,280 I will also, it has occurred to me based on what the subject matter for today is, to 31 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:51,440 just also let you know one other thing about me is that I've never been a strong swimmer, 32 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:58,360 but a couple things that came up in my life before my near-death experience have led me 33 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:04,360 to think a lot about my particular experience and what it was and why and how it happened. 34 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:08,760 And so I may bring those in just too little incidents as we go. 35 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,640 Well, and we're going to talk about your drowning experience in just a minute. 36 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:15,360 Anything else you want to fill in? 37 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:16,360 I don't know. 38 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:17,360 Oh, did I mention that I'm a musician? 39 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:18,920 I'm a musician. 40 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:21,320 That's also another big part of my life. 41 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,840 What kind of musician? 42 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,080 Lots of things, but I do play multiple instruments. 43 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,600 So classical music, folk music. 44 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:30,600 What's your favorite? 45 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:36,760 Well, I've played the piano the longest and I just actually started the harp last year. 46 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:42,200 So I've had a ton of fun playing the harp for a year and performing in public just a 47 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,480 little bit with that. 48 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,200 That's a big change. 49 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,000 Both are instruments that are hard to pack around to different places. 50 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,800 You're not choosing the easy ones. 51 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,040 Get a flute next time. 52 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:54,880 Oh, I play the flute. 53 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:56,280 Oh, okay. 54 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:57,960 All right. 55 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:03,000 Before we talk about your drowning, and this was when you were a teenager, you just mentioned 56 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,840 some things before that that I don't know about. 57 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,360 So go ahead and fill in the blanks on that. 58 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:13,360 My parents had a period of secondary infertility. 59 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,880 They had had three children, then they had several years where they were trying for more 60 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,040 and that did not happen. 61 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,760 And then later on, they had four more. 62 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,720 In those years, there were different experiences. 63 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:27,720 And so I was a kid. 64 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,160 I got to experience this along with the family. 65 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:36,880 I believe my grandmother at one point gave my mom a particular book, which I got a hold 66 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,400 of out of the bookcase at some point. 67 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,720 I'm a big reader and reading through the story. 68 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:46,120 It was about a woman who watched her husband drown. 69 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:53,880 She and their family of six or seven children were out on a boat and having a day and something 70 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,600 about the story in the end, her husband ended up in the water. 71 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:02,320 She had to keep all those kids safe on the boat, couldn't rescue him, and it was cold 72 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,480 and he got tired and all the things. 73 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,080 And there was nobody around. 74 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,360 And so the book just kind of, she had a little bit more of her story, but that was a lot 75 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,840 of what the plot of this book was. 76 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,840 And I read that as a kid and had a lot of thoughts about it. 77 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,720 And I don't really know why my parents had this book in the house, but you would think, 78 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,800 well, I would think that that was a pretty interesting thing to put into my brain as 79 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,000 about a nine-year-old, even before that. 80 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,920 So I had had some swimming lessons as about a preschooler. 81 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,640 It wasn't a great swimmer I never have been. 82 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,480 But I knew some basics. 83 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,240 And then you have water safety lessons in school every once in a while, things like 84 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:39,240 that. 85 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,520 And it did seem like that was a topic that stuck in my head. 86 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:47,080 And even as a kid, I would think, am I going to need this information in some particular 87 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:48,080 way someday? 88 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:49,760 I hope not, you know? 89 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,600 But I would just keep it. 90 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,680 It was always there in the back of my mind. 91 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:59,280 Again, a story, a short story that I heard that was based on a true incident, I'm sure, 92 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:05,440 of a little kid who had found himself trapped underwater on a camping trip with his brother 93 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,200 and his dad and maybe an uncle kind of thing. 94 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,880 And it was a short story, but the kid just was talking about how he handled finding himself 95 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,160 underwater, trapped by some branch or something. 96 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:22,320 And the thoughts that came to him that helped him know what to do next and stay calm and 97 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:23,440 this kind of thing. 98 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,200 And I just, I tucked that story away in my head as a little kid and thought, well, that 99 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:29,360 was useful. 100 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,400 If I ever need this for some reason, I will know at least to do the things he did, you 101 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:34,400 know? 102 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:35,960 And he came out of it, obviously. 103 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,000 And so, I mean, with those two stories just by themselves, before I was 10 years old, 104 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:46,440 I had, I suppose, in the back of my mind, this wondering whether that would ever need 105 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,480 to be something I needed. 106 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:53,720 And I didn't spend a ton of time on them, but I definitely had them in my repertoire, 107 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:54,760 I suppose. 108 00:05:54,760 --> 00:06:00,160 And so then when my own experience happened, I feel like both of those, oddly enough, came 109 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:06,200 into play, although I probably didn't go back and put all that together for several years 110 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,240 after my own experience. 111 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:13,800 So it was almost like a, almost like a premonition, but something that also was helping to get 112 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,240 you prepared. 113 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:16,600 That's very unusual. 114 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:17,600 That's interesting. 115 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:18,600 Okay. 116 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,320 Tell us about when you were a young teenager. 117 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:22,480 Where were you? 118 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:23,480 Yeah. 119 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,600 When my family had moved, we had lived on the east coast of the U.S. when I was a little 120 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:29,760 kid, and there was water everywhere. 121 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:34,640 We went to the Jossam Beach, at least once a week, most summers kind of thing. 122 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:39,640 But I did not have a lot of experience on the middle of a body of water. 123 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:45,000 I had not really been in a boat before other than visiting boat museums. 124 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,640 That does not count. 125 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:48,640 I was not very familiar with this whole thing. 126 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,360 You know, I didn't feel like it. 127 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:55,440 And when I was a young teenager, we moved most of the way across the country, ended 128 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:00,920 up near the Colorado mountains, and there are lakes there everywhere, but not very many 129 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,000 beaches that you can count as beaches. 130 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,600 I mean, it's not the same. 131 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:10,320 So one of the first summers we were there, they told a bunch of us teenagers that, and 132 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:15,240 my brother was there that day, that we would be going boating and water skiing, you know, 133 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:16,240 all that stuff. 134 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,560 And I didn't even realize at that age that apparently that was something that plenty 135 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,240 of the teenagers out in the West did, all the water skiing stuff that I don't know that 136 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:25,240 I'd heard. 137 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,000 I'm sure people do it in the East too, but just there was a little bit of a cultural 138 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,400 difference there, maybe. 139 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,680 I wasn't sure, maybe even partly because of these stories I had read. 140 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,640 I don't know, but I wasn't feeling terribly comfortable about going on this trip. 141 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,880 But I went and I thought, maybe if I don't want to go on the boat, I won't have to. 142 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:43,640 But I'm willing to go for it. 143 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,200 There have been plenty of things in life you just go for it. 144 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,160 So my brother and I, and then these other people went and nobody else in our family 145 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:51,160 was there. 146 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:56,040 It was a lot of, there were plenty of adults and just a few little kids, mostly teenagers. 147 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,160 And my brother and I ended up in the same boat. 148 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,760 I mean, I think there were people just swimming or staying on the beach, but once we were 149 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,480 there, I thought, well, why not go in the boat? 150 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,600 But they did not have life jackets for everyone. 151 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:07,840 I'll tell everybody that. 152 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,720 And that's not so smart, right? 153 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,360 If ever I'm in charge of something like that, I'll kind of make sure we round all of that. 154 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,840 And I've done boating and rafting and things in the years since and it's been better. 155 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,480 But yeah, so we all got on this boat. 156 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:26,400 They had just a couple life jackets to share between everybody as far as if you go out 157 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:27,960 in the water behind the boat. 158 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:29,080 My brother did. 159 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,920 Maybe everybody else in the boat did that day and I did not. 160 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,360 But I enjoyed the ride and the water was choppy. 161 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,680 It seemed like there was also quite a, the weather was cooling off. 162 00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:40,480 We were almost maybe a storm. 163 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:45,960 There are plenty of storms on those lakes in the afternoons in the summer in Colorado. 164 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,840 And so we came to an end of everything and the man driving our boat had a couple of his 165 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:52,920 little children on the boat with us. 166 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:53,920 They may have had life jackets. 167 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:54,920 I don't remember. 168 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:00,840 I'm sure he was kind of putting his resources at the disposal of these teens. 169 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,880 So he had whatever he had that day at the end of everything. 170 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,280 He didn't go back to the boat ramp. 171 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,000 He was going to take another boatload out. 172 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,560 And I think he thought, well, I'll get pretty close and people over on the beach or the 173 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:17,120 shore are over there and all of you just jump out and swim over there. 174 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,920 And I knew that I wasn't a strong swimmer, but I thought, we're pretty close. 175 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:21,920 I can do this. 176 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,760 I'm not going to make a fuss. 177 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,440 And everybody else jumped out before me. 178 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,920 And so I was asking them as they went, you know, they pop up again, they keep swimming 179 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,760 away and I was asking them, hey guys, how deep is it? 180 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,640 How cold is it? 181 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:36,640 Anything I should know. 182 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,960 There's a lot about rocks underneath more than other things. 183 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:41,760 And they all kind of gave me generic answers. 184 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:46,120 They weren't being unhelpful, but I also still felt like I don't really know how this is 185 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:47,120 going to go. 186 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:52,400 And for some reason I did have just that little sneakiness of I'm not so comfortable with 187 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,200 this, but I didn't know why. 188 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,560 And so I thought, well, I shouldn't be holding this man up. 189 00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:00,240 He wants his next group. 190 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:07,840 So I jumped out of the boat and hit that water and it's cold. 191 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,480 The water on the East Coast warms up somewhat. 192 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,520 The water on Colorado lakes, no. 193 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,160 Yeah, that water took my breath so fast. 194 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,160 There I was. 195 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:25,640 You know, the boat can only be inches away from me if I can get up above the surface 196 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:32,680 again, but can't see anything, all I can feel is cold, have no air. 197 00:10:32,680 --> 00:10:36,560 And from there, I don't know, shall I just keep telling the story here? 198 00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:41,040 Well, yeah, I just wanted to interject one thing. 199 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:45,200 The cold water, it can be very dangerous. 200 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,840 You know, for anyone that hasn't done some kind of a, well, ice plunging is so popular 201 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,200 now, but hopefully you won't drown in one of those. 202 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,960 But when you jump in really, really cold water, especially when you're not expecting 203 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:04,320 it and don't have experience with it, it can actually like cramp up your muscles, freeze. 204 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,760 And the shock can make you expel your air. 205 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:12,120 So it's not surprising to me to hear that you just had no air. 206 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:16,400 I mean, just so that we can relate to where you were at, plus you were little and all 207 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:17,600 that kind of stuff. 208 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,200 So, okay, what happened next? 209 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:27,320 I'm under the water and at that point, even just the sensation of knowing, okay, I've 210 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:33,200 got to either take in some oxygen here or, you know, the opposite, you know, like instantly, 211 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,160 like I do not have anything left. 212 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:36,600 I felt like time slowed down. 213 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,120 I mean, I'm sure, you know, and I was having all these thoughts and I was remembering that 214 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,520 story that I had heard as a little kid about the boy. 215 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:53,000 And one thing he mentioned was that he just, he had heard a voice telling him, don't breathe 216 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,000 in. 217 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,760 And so I thought, okay, I mean, you know, again, I could do that at first, I went out 218 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,800 of time, you know, and I thought, all I need is to get back up above, but grief, you know, 219 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,280 I've gone swimming and things, you know, my whole life, like this doesn't take very 220 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:13,880 long, but there was just, and then so I spent what felt like a very long time waiting to 221 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:19,560 foth up and holding my breath when I, I couldn't anymore. 222 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:27,160 And finally I had time to think to myself, this is it, this is the moment I'm gone because 223 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,720 I don't, this isn't going the way I would have thought or hoped it would go. 224 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,400 Was it sort of a relaxation that came over you? 225 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,160 Slightly not. 226 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,080 I didn't feel like much changed in my general demeanor. 227 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:45,640 I just was, I felt like my thoughts were going fairly slowly, like I had time to think about 228 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,360 all of this. 229 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,680 Because some people go from panic and then things kind of slow down. 230 00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:55,920 And you mentioned thinking through some things all of a sudden, which, yeah, that's interesting. 231 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:56,920 Okay. 232 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:04,280 And so then I had time, I would say I had time to have thoughts about, so if I die today, 233 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:09,520 right here, right now, what is everybody up at home going to think, you know, what is 234 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,920 everybody on the beach over there going to think? 235 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,560 How is this going to go? 236 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:18,880 And I had time, I was raised a religious little kid and I started praying, right? 237 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,280 I'm praying, okay, God, I wanted to grow up and get married. 238 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,320 I wanted to go home and see my parents tonight. 239 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:32,400 I wanted, you know, but if for some reason I'm supposed to die, then the main thing that 240 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:37,040 I was concerned about at that point, which I kind of found surprising, if you'd asked 241 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,400 me, what would you be concerned about in a moment like this? 242 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,520 I don't know that I would have picked this, but the thing I found myself praying about 243 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:51,160 was I was so sure, and I have no idea now if I would even have been accurate, but why 244 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:52,160 not? 245 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:58,400 But I was so sure that day then that my parents would not handle an announcement well that 246 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,360 their child had gone on this trip and died. 247 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,600 That is not in the plan. 248 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,720 And again, because I wasn't wearing a life jacket, I just thought this is going to go 249 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:08,600 all kinds of bad, you know? 250 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:13,560 And I also thought these adults that are here, very well-intentioned, maybe, I mean, they 251 00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:17,600 had four or five boats, I'm sure at least one of the other boats would have had more 252 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,000 life jackets, I don't know. 253 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,320 But I thought, I don't want to get this man in trouble. 254 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:29,120 He's a well-intentioned man doing, I guess, what he thought or hoped would go decently. 255 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,160 And I don't want these other grown-ups or anybody else anywhere to get in trouble for 256 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:34,720 me dying today. 257 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,600 And that's what I was, that's what I was praying about. 258 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:41,240 And I just was thinking, I want my parents not to blame any of these people. 259 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,920 I want them not to blame themselves for letting me go on this trip. 260 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:49,800 I don't want, because I just, I don't know, I felt like me being in that water there wasn't 261 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:50,800 anybody's fault. 262 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:56,120 Which again, I wasn't a kid who was into blaming the world anyway, but I also felt like I had 263 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:01,240 run into enough people over my years that there's always somebody looking for somebody 264 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:02,680 to point at, you know? 265 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,360 And I just, it was interesting. 266 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,160 I felt like I had time to evaluate my feelings. 267 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:13,080 And I just thought, I wouldn't call this anybody's fault enough to go after anybody. 268 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,440 So again, people who hear the story now may have different feelings. 269 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,480 So was there a point when you felt like you left your body? 270 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:21,480 Yes. 271 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:22,480 I mean, yeah. 272 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,080 I mean, it was interesting what kind of a transition that was. 273 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:30,040 So, so I'm thinking these thoughts and then, and then thinking, I guess I'm dying. 274 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,360 I guess this is it just because I continued to not surface, you know? 275 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:38,880 I think it was after all these thoughts about, I want, I want things to go well at home. 276 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:44,000 I guess I may not be coming back, you know, that I, that I did realize I did hit a very 277 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:50,800 specific point at which, and I did kind of realize this, like very shortly after that, 278 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,360 that I wasn't necessarily feeling the water anymore. 279 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:54,360 Right? 280 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:59,040 I wasn't sure whether I felt freezing cold anymore or not so much or what, but I, I wasn't 281 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:03,760 feeling like I was surrounded by water that was keeping my air from, from me. 282 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,280 It was more just like I didn't need air. 283 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,920 Like I, here I am, and I'm not worrying about that, you know? 284 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:11,760 And what is around me is, is space. 285 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:13,360 I would have just said it was space. 286 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,520 It was at least, it seemed like it was the same level of darkness. 287 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,720 Those lakes are very dark underneath. 288 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,120 It was the same level of darkness as what the water had been. 289 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:24,120 Yeah. 290 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,480 And, and there I was just, I didn't feel like I had moved, but I, but I definitely knew 291 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:29,480 also. 292 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,840 I was like, okay, I was fighting for air back there. 293 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,800 Now I'm not fighting for air anymore. 294 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,760 I'm not, I don't care about the air. 295 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,080 I'm not using the air. 296 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:44,720 You mentioned to me earlier that you had a life review briefly during this time. 297 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,920 Is that the next part or is there something, if there's something to fill in before that, 298 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:49,920 fill that in first? 299 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:50,920 Well, I'm trying to think. 300 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:52,720 I think that was the next thing. 301 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:58,440 So, so, you know, I had gone from my thoughts of my parents, my thoughts of, I, I probably 302 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,320 should be trying to go back up toward, you know, out into that world over there, you 303 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:09,520 know, instead of giving it all up, you know, right at this moment that I was like, wow, 304 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,280 you know, I'm not dead. 305 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,200 So even if I'm dead or even if people out there are going to find me dead, like, I'm 306 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:16,200 alive. 307 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:21,680 This is me, you know, I was very surprised that the next thing that happened was that 308 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:27,040 I found myself just seeing everything, everything. 309 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:28,800 And I mean, I was only 13. 310 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,680 How many memories can you have, you know? 311 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,200 But I see everything that had ever happened in my life. 312 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,400 And it was, it was very fast. 313 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,080 But I noticed that there was nothing missing. 314 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,120 And I've always had a very good memory. 315 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:47,000 And as a kid with fewer things to remember, I had had a very good memory. 316 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,400 But did I remember all of this? 317 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,240 No, like, you know, how could anybody remember all of that? 318 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,560 And I saw it all. 319 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,400 And it was just everyday stuff. 320 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,680 I hadn't had a big, exciting life with crazy things happening. 321 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,520 There was nothing, there was nothing missing. 322 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,440 And it was extremely bright. 323 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:08,120 So I don't know, you may have seen something in writing from me before. 324 00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:13,560 Sometimes I mentioned how as a kid living on the East Coast, we didn't have satellite 325 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,720 TV or anything like that that was coming out and more people had that. 326 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,800 We always watch TV with the snow. 327 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:28,080 And so, you know, unless I was away from home, what I was going to see on our color TV was, 328 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:29,080 yes, it was colorful. 329 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:30,320 Yes, you could see what was happening. 330 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:31,320 Yes, you could hear it. 331 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:32,840 But it wasn't clear. 332 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:34,960 It wasn't crystal clear. 333 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:40,240 And to some extent, perhaps you could even say the color was kind of that much more subdued, 334 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:41,240 right? 335 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:47,120 And this that I saw was as if it were the clearest TV screen and more so, right? 336 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:48,600 More so. 337 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:54,480 And just everything, I was myself in some of what I saw as far as at the time the memory 338 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,880 would have happened that I would have recalled. 339 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:58,440 I'm seeing out of my own eyes. 340 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,080 I only see everybody else around me, you know. 341 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:06,320 And some of what I saw was as though I were an outsider now and I was seeing myself plus 342 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,440 the other people in the picture. 343 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:09,440 So that was interesting, right? 344 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,480 But I wasn't giving too much thought to it at the time, just going, wow, you know, there's 345 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:14,480 wow. 346 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,320 No, I wouldn't have remembered that, you know. 347 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,000 So very clear, very quickly and also backwards. 348 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,280 I don't know how many people I've heard who had talked about a life review where it's 349 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,520 not from beginning to end. 350 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,000 It was as though from the end back to the beginning. 351 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:35,040 And so that was very different because if you had asked me as a 13 year old to narrate 352 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,680 my life memory by memory, if I could have done such a thing, I would have started with 353 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:44,440 the earliest thing I could remember and I would have gone up to here I am underwater 354 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:45,720 dying, you know. 355 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,400 That's an interesting thought because most people don't even mention that, whether it's 356 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:59,360 from oldest to newest or newest to oldest, which leads me to believe that it's not necessarily 357 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:00,360 chronological. 358 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:06,880 In fact, some people tell me that they see everything at the same time. 359 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,200 So it's not necessarily one before another. 360 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,680 And our minds here on this earth can't really understand how do we see everything at one 361 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,560 time, but that's okay. 362 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,360 In a spiritual realm, we can do a whole lot more than we can here. 363 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:27,960 Is there any from that review, any maybe one or two experiences that stand out that you 364 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,320 that really had an impact on you? 365 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:35,280 Some of the things I was I was kind of grabbing at mentally and I couldn't hold onto any of 366 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:44,600 it was just a scene of being in the playroom, I suppose, at the house where I was about 367 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:51,800 05 and seeing my brother and I sitting around a set of magnetic toys. 368 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,080 And I mean, you know, I played with however many sets of toys in my life at all different 369 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,800 ages with all different people, you know. 370 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:04,400 And yet that particular memory was showing up and it was one where I didn't feel as though 371 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,280 it were me being present with my brother and the toys again. 372 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:15,720 It was as though I was across the room a little ways seeing me and my brother and the toys. 373 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,280 And then, you know, there wasn't anything special about it. 374 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:23,520 I was taking less than a split second to think, is there something important about this? 375 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:29,040 Or, you know, why is this something that I think I'm going to remember after this whole 376 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,600 experience, you know. 377 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,720 And I couldn't come up with any reason why that was important. 378 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,920 But I did have from the time I was about 4 or 5. 379 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:43,560 I do know that at some times like that where I was, you know, to an outsider I would have 380 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,320 looked like I was sitting playing somewhere. 381 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:53,280 I was having very deep thoughts for a kid about family relationships and people's temperaments 382 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,360 and who am I and this kind of thing. 383 00:21:55,360 --> 00:22:01,840 And so it could be that maybe that memory was something where if I could now go back 384 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,920 and see everything again, because I have no way of remembering this now, that I would 385 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,880 have been at that moment sitting there thinking about my brother and I always got along very 386 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:11,880 well. 387 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:12,880 We played very well together. 388 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,200 He was what I would have considered my best friend. 389 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:20,040 And others in my family were not so friendly, but we're not so easy to get along with. 390 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:25,480 And I did have thoughts about that kind of a thing quite a bit as a preschooler. 391 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:30,200 The idea that it's just so fun to be around this person and it's not as fun to be around 392 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:31,200 that person, you know. 393 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,320 So pretty simple. 394 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:38,400 But that kind of a thing, I just found myself noticing and thinking again, well, I mean, 395 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,000 that was, that's what I would call a good memory. 396 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:47,600 I wonder if maybe I'm, I mean, now I suppose I think as an older person, I think, was I 397 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:52,000 trying to hold on to any of the good memories in this life review as though I worried there 398 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,680 would be some bad ones or as if I worried that it was all going to get away from me 399 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,800 and disappear, you know. 400 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:58,800 So. 401 00:22:58,800 --> 00:22:59,800 Yeah. 402 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:00,960 Those are good questions. 403 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:07,000 So do you remember during that life review feeling anything like any guilt or judgment 404 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,080 or happiness because you had good experiences too? 405 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:12,080 That is a good question. 406 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:19,200 So I was struck by how very unemotional the entire thing was. 407 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,020 Just a brief interruption here to mention our sponsor, Smart Labels. 408 00:23:23,020 --> 00:23:27,400 If fall season means you're putting away summer clothes and toys, there's a product that helps 409 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,120 you keep it all organized. 410 00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:33,720 Get the smart labels and stick their QR codes on all your storage bins. 411 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,160 Scan in the app, add names, descriptions, even pictures. 412 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,880 Then months down the road, when you're looking for that thing that you know you stored somewhere, 413 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,040 you can just search in the app and it'll tell you where you put it. 414 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,280 Seriously, it's organizing magic. 415 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,320 Click on over to Amazon, search for smart labels. 416 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,040 That's one word, smart labels and get organized today. 417 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,880 Now back to the guest. 418 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,920 I, again, perhaps I was trying to grab onto one or two of these memories as they went 419 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,600 past me so fast or not even went past me. 420 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:12,360 They felt like they went from me where I was in that moment away from me, you know, back 421 00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:20,240 to the past and I was farther away from the ones that happened farther away as things, 422 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,960 as I became aware that there was nothing missing, not a single thing, you know. 423 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:30,160 I did feel that, oh, okay, all of this is, again, part of me, part of my life, this is 424 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:35,800 me, it is closer to me than I would have thought, you know, so that was interesting. 425 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:42,080 But no, it was extremely, extremely no emotion whatsoever. 426 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:48,560 All mental, all thinking, I'm just kind of going, okay, so what was this about? 427 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,680 You know, because I didn't have any experience to compare it to really at that point, except 428 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:59,240 for how I had been taught from the time I could remember that after we die, we are still 429 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,600 alive and I had been taught that it matters what we do in life and that, for instance, 430 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,400 after you die and go on to, because we keep living, I suppose if you go on to the next 431 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:15,520 life, right, that what you have done will matter to you some way, right? 432 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,680 That, yeah, I had been taught that if you, I had been taught the word regret and my parents 433 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,160 had always said you should live without regrets and do things, not do things that you would 434 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:25,920 regret later anyway. 435 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:31,040 And I think I mostly did that, although also the kind of life I was living as a kid didn't 436 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:36,200 lend itself to a whole lot of doing very much that I would have regretted, I think. 437 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,160 Yeah, you were a good kid, so that makes sense. 438 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:46,440 Do you remember in addition to the near death experience, or excuse me, the life review, 439 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,040 do you remember seeing or feeling anything else? 440 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,360 With this life review and then feeling that there was no emotion attached to it, even 441 00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,720 so again, I couldn't hold on to anything I had just seen. 442 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,760 And if I had wanted to say, well, I remember that, that makes me feel worm and fuzzy, you 443 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,060 know, no, there wasn't anything like that. 444 00:26:04,060 --> 00:26:11,840 I did just have a sense, it was an absolutely powerful sense that yes, if I had done something 445 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:18,040 in what I had just seen that I would now be feeling regretful for, that that regret would 446 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,480 have been there, that that would have been a feeling and that would have been very strong. 447 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:26,600 And so I kind of was thinking, well, don't, you know, shouldn't I then feel just as happy, 448 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,560 strongly happy about the good stuff? 449 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,560 And I didn't, but I just felt like, okay, so I don't know what to do with this, but 450 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,200 this is what I have here. 451 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,200 You know, I felt like I was kind of holding it in my hands a little bit for a split second 452 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,920 of going, okay, God or wherever, whatever, you know, but here it is, I don't know what 453 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:45,920 this is, right? 454 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:51,280 As soon as it was over, as soon as the life review was over, the sense that I had was 455 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:57,240 that now that I had seen everything, I was allowed to add to it if I wanted to. 456 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:03,720 I could say anything I could complain or dispute anything, whatever I wanted to do with this, 457 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,360 I could do it was up to me. 458 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:07,040 And I thought that's very interesting. 459 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,280 What do I want to do with this, you know? 460 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:14,400 And the thing that I also had the sense of was, which I wouldn't have expected, was that 461 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:23,480 anything I said in this moment or any claims I made about what this was would not replace 462 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,960 anything in the record, it would just add to it. 463 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:32,040 So you know, I'd be adding footnotes, I'd be adding addenda, and I'm going, okay, well, 464 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,160 why would that matter, you know? 465 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:39,360 In the sense that I had was, for instance, if there was a time when I would have seen 466 00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:42,800 myself fighting with a sibling or something like that, right? 467 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,800 And I wanted to now say, well, this was why, you know, somebody should see my side. 468 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,880 I had the right in the argument or whatever, that my comments now about that situation 469 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,080 would just go in the footnotes and they would be there. 470 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:02,160 But that, for instance, and if anything I wanted to say that would like tweak the situation 471 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,800 to be in my favor, that that would just be obvious because whatever I said in the footnotes 472 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,040 could be compared against what was available to be seen. 473 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:15,400 And so that was, I was realizing, oh, so what I just saw is kind of something that anybody 474 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:16,400 could see. 475 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:22,920 It's not just me or my life or private to me, this is out where anybody can see it and 476 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,000 anybody is going to come along and see it sometime, I guess, you know? 477 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:28,200 And so I didn't know what to do with that. 478 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:37,000 I thought if I add a bunch of stuff and try to spend time making myself look good, then 479 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,040 if somebody comes along and sees something that just playing out right in front of them 480 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:47,720 doesn't make me look good, then this will show the observer or the reader or whatever 481 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:48,880 you'd call it. 482 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,960 It would show that I'm a liar. 483 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:56,720 And it really, the thing that I really was sensing from this whole life review was reality 484 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,520 is reality. 485 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,840 Reality really happened. 486 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,240 This is how it was, good, bad, indifferent, everything else. 487 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:10,200 And anything that anybody tries to add to reality is just not real. 488 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,680 And it was interesting that right there underwater, I was getting such an education in a way I 489 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:20,920 never had to that point in my life about reality, what it really is, how it matters, 490 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,520 how it apparently plays out outside of this world even. 491 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:26,520 Super interesting. 492 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,600 And that's a lot in a short amount of time. 493 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:35,360 Was there anything else that you experienced before it ended and then tell us how it ended? 494 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,800 As I'm thinking, okay, well, apparently it is mine to do something with at this moment, 495 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,920 this thing that I just saw. 496 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,520 But this is what it's going to mean, you know? 497 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,200 And I really felt that I was accountable for whatever I did right now with that in this 498 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,200 moment. 499 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:56,200 I thought, no, I'm pretty happy basically with what I lived here in this world. 500 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,200 And I'm not happy with everything. 501 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,640 I'm not a perfect person. 502 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,720 I didn't think I was, you know, but like, well, this is what it was, you know? 503 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,640 And I guess I'm going to let the record stand. 504 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,080 And as soon as I thought that, again, I was kind of surprised that I was having all this 505 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,360 time to think this too. 506 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,920 So it seemed like lots of time was going by. 507 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,000 As soon as I thought, guess this is it? 508 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,640 I guess this was my life on earth. 509 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,040 And by then I was kind of going, I guess if this is happening to me, this means I'm gone, 510 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:24,040 you know? 511 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,040 I'm not going back. 512 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,480 I'm not going to be preparing to move on. 513 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:33,440 I felt as though the whole thing, which had been, I would have said it was like a, like 514 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:40,400 that film tape inside of the BHS, you know, with different little scenes inside stretching 515 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:41,400 away from me. 516 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:46,560 And I felt like it was rolling back into the machine. 517 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,920 So sometimes I say to people, it says, though, every detail of my life with nothing missing 518 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:56,200 was a receipt with all the details of the transaction, you know, every single thing 519 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,680 as it gets entered into onto the receipt paper. 520 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,720 And then once I said I was kind of done with it, it's all rolled back up into the machine. 521 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,640 And I was picturing like a, like a scroll in my mind rolled up. 522 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,960 And I had the sense it was going to get put, stored away somewhere. 523 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,680 I exposed they store scrolls and, or people used to store scrolls in earthen pots, you 524 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:19,840 know, in caves, you know? 525 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,240 That's kind of the sense I had was it's going away. 526 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:24,720 It's all safe. 527 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,240 It's all together. 528 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,760 This is you in your past. 529 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,840 And it will come out again sometime, but it's not time to think about it right now. 530 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,560 And I thought, oh, okay. 531 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:43,320 And so at that point was when I really, again, it was a specific decision or, or at least 532 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:50,240 a point in time where I was going, okay, I am turning away from all that stuff that 533 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,480 was hoping to get back out of the water, hoping to say something to the people up above, you 534 00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:00,440 know, I am, and even though I say up above, I didn't at that point have a sense that I 535 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,640 was underneath any, in any way. 536 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:03,840 It was just, I'm in space. 537 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:04,840 I don't know where I am. 538 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,000 Here we go. 539 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,120 With that decision then that I'm turning away from all that, that was it. 540 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,520 That was going to be the end of my, my earth life. 541 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,320 And I thought, okay, well, I very much felt 13. 542 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:21,360 I didn't feel like I was wise or, you know, adult or anything. 543 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:26,960 I very much felt like a young teenager, but I thought I will, I will turn around and I 544 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,080 will face whatever is coming next. 545 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,080 I got to do this. 546 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,360 And, and I mean, as much as anything, that experience of being so naive about what might 547 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:40,240 be coming was one of a piece with the idea of going on the boating trip in the first 548 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,120 place where I, and all the other things in life that I'd done where I didn't know how 549 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:44,200 they were going to turn out. 550 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,720 So I thought, I don't know that I would say I'm comfortable with this, but I, I guess 551 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,520 is what we're doing, you know. 552 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:56,120 And, and it was as I turned more mentally than physically, but I almost did feel like 553 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:01,520 in space I was turning and, and I was turning away from all that stuff back behind me and 554 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:07,120 I was turning towards, in my best understanding darkness and emptiness. 555 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:12,480 And I thought, okay, but I, you know, no sense of God or anybody around me or anything in 556 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,520 space around me. 557 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,760 But I kind of was hoping and trusting that there was, you know, there were, there were 558 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,120 things out there and ahead of me. 559 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:27,040 And it was as I was doing that, that I came up out of the water and have to take a breath 560 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:28,040 now, you know. 561 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:29,040 And, and I had enough time. 562 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:30,600 It felt like, again, things were going slower. 563 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,480 I had enough time to be going, it's time to take a breath now, you know, and then do 564 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:36,480 so. 565 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:37,480 You know, it was a choice. 566 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:38,480 It was a decision. 567 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:43,520 And, and then of course I'm back to gasping for air as though it completely involuntary. 568 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:48,280 So I thought, that's interesting, you know, and by then the man had come off the boat 569 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,760 himself and was swimming towards me saying, are you okay? 570 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,840 You didn't know what's going on, you know, I didn't say, and saying, my little kids are 571 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:56,840 on the boat. 572 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,640 I have to get back to them on the boat and I have to care about them. 573 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,200 And is there some way that you can, you know, can you get to the shore then? 574 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:04,200 I'm so glad you came up. 575 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:05,760 I guess you're okay kind of thing. 576 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:10,880 And I was going, I guess I'm okay because, you know, but I was telling him, well, what 577 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:11,880 about the rocks? 578 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,440 Oh, it's freezing in here, you know, all the same things. 579 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,960 And he was kind of paying more attention to me than he would have otherwise, I think. 580 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,560 And so he kind of grabbed me by an arm or something and kind of towed me along with him just a 581 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,000 very short way until I could feel something on the bottom. 582 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,520 And then I walked or whatever I did back to the rest of the group and just kind of flocked 583 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,760 down on the beach and sat there and thought about all that. 584 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:41,920 And at the time, that afternoon and evening, I spent more time thinking about, again, my 585 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,320 parents, the adults, oh, I'm not going to tell anybody this story. 586 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,720 I don't want anything, you know, people are going to get all over everybody's case. 587 00:34:49,720 --> 00:34:54,120 And since I came out of it, fine, I think it's fine, you know, and again, that's probably 588 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:55,560 a very young teen way to think. 589 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,200 But that was how that was. 590 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,560 And I know that that man was concerned, but he was a man who didn't know me. 591 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,280 I knew who he was, but we'd never exchange words with each other. 592 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,000 Even in his bringing me back to the beach, we didn't hardly say anything to each other. 593 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,000 And in all the years that I knew him after that, he and I didn't interact. 594 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,480 So the whole thing was very interesting. 595 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:17,480 Okay. 596 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:23,000 Now, just a reminder, if for people that may be new to the show or kind of new to near 597 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:28,480 death experiences, these things can happen in all sorts of ways. 598 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,920 It doesn't always have to be the clinical heart stopped for a couple of minutes and 599 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,000 all of that kind of stuff. 600 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,400 These experiences happen in comas. 601 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:44,920 They happen in things like yours where, where you dead, where you alive, where you on the 602 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,320 verge, where you kind of in and out, you know, I don't really care. 603 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:50,320 It doesn't matter. 604 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,640 We're not trying to fit a definition here. 605 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:57,080 You had an experience that was very profound to you. 606 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:03,200 And so the next thing that I want to ask you is, how did this affect your life moving forward? 607 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,280 Were you a different little 13 year old girl from that point? 608 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:12,520 I was quite iffy about all things water for a while after that. 609 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:18,200 And I did at some point not too long after tell my parents at least some of that adventure 610 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,440 because there was some other sort of thing that came up that I didn't want to participate 611 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:23,440 in. 612 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,240 And I told them, it's because of my previous experience. 613 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:28,600 And so, you know, they were whatever it was I shared. 614 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,160 And I know I didn't share the whole thing, but they were pretty shocked. 615 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,800 I mean, I didn't tell them anything about my experience under the water, you know, or 616 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:40,120 you know, dying basically, but they were pretty shocked and they were pretty, I wouldn't say 617 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,360 angry like they could get angry and indignant. 618 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,520 But, but, you know, they were not very fond of the idea that I had not been wearing a 619 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,600 life jacket at the time, this kind of thing. 620 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,720 So, so they gave permission for me to skip whatever it was that I didn't want to do after 621 00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:52,720 that. 622 00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:56,480 But I went back and as an older teenager, I took some more swim lessons, things like 623 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:57,480 that. 624 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,880 And, and I've just, I've never been terribly fond of the water since that experience. 625 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:01,880 I'll say that. 626 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:08,680 But I mean, that was just, that was related to like the, the supernatural parts of it. 627 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:15,600 I would say for that, there were three experiences very different from each other that happened. 628 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,320 The year I was 13, that was one. 629 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:19,800 And there were two others. 630 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,760 I don't know that I was very much a different person in character, but I just, I thought 631 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:30,800 about all that stuff even more than I maybe even had for the few years before. 632 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:36,120 I would think about life after death and how, well, for sure, if anyone asks me, I'll tell 633 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:41,560 you, we're still, we're still us and we're still alive after we die, you know, again, 634 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:47,400 just the basic, I didn't usually go back to that underwater experience until I was older, 635 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:55,640 as far as where my ideas came from about how you should live so that you won't regret it. 636 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,920 You know, I just, I pretty much stuck with what my parents had told me as a tiny kid. 637 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:04,160 And then, and then these other experiences that happened in that same year would lead 638 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,160 me to just think generally about how, what kind of life am I living? 639 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,360 You know, am I happy with it? 640 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,440 Is this, is this who I want to be? 641 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,600 And, and more than that, because again, other things happened every year. 642 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,360 And, and my life got much more adventurous after age 13. 643 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:25,960 And I would spend time sometimes looking at other people and their stories and decisions 644 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:30,520 and thinking, maybe maybe the thing here is that you just don't know what I know. 645 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,800 And if you knew what I knew, you would do things differently. 646 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,840 You know, so that was, that was interesting. 647 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,360 I mean, really, it's only been in the last two or three years that I've, that I've really 648 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:44,480 shared about the voting experience with, with more people who aren't going to know anything 649 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,680 about me or ever hear anything more from me. 650 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:54,000 And generally when I do, I have been thinking of it from the point of view of how can I 651 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,720 just, if there is a situation where it seems like it might be relevant somehow, how can 652 00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:04,720 I maybe just add to somebody's picture of kind of more for comfort, because I think 653 00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:11,360 there are a lot of people who worry about, do I, do I live after this world kind of thing? 654 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,840 And sometimes, yeah, if somebody's making some decision that seems to me very extremely 655 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:22,000 foolhardy or something like that, I may think, again, if, if you knew what I feel like I 656 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,800 know, I think you might be doing some things differently. 657 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:29,720 Well, and that's one of the tough things about having an experience like this is such a young 658 00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:34,640 age and especially not telling parents about it for a while. 659 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:41,000 As you had to deal with both the trauma and the things that you learned and experienced 660 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:47,520 under the water in a whole different kind of, you know, this was a spiritual experience 661 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,800 as much as it was a physical experience for you. 662 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,400 You know, how do we process that? 663 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:58,520 Even as adults, it's not an easy thing to process as a 13 year old girl. 664 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,680 I think you probably just shove some of this down and said, I'll deal with it later. 665 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:07,360 And you're finally, you're finally coming to terms with it and learning from it and 666 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:12,440 some of those kind of things, which is making you more comfortable sharing it. 667 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,840 And I appreciate you sharing it with us, by the way, because I know you've shared it 668 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,600 with a few people, but not publicly like this before. 669 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:20,840 So thank you. 670 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,360 I appreciate that. 671 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,400 One of the things that you had mentioned to me prior to this was about the colors that 672 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:27,800 you saw. 673 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,400 Can you tell me more about that? 674 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:30,400 Yeah. 675 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,560 Well, I just mentioned how bright everything was, right? 676 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:39,040 And as, I mean, it's a poor comparison to say it was going from the snowy TV to the 677 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,640 clear TV and even beyond that, that's still just not exactly how I would say it. 678 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:49,840 I don't know how I would say it, but for sure, not only was everything about my life there 679 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:56,000 that I could not have remembered, no matter how good my memory was, you know, but also 680 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,520 like even living it, even, even if like I'd gone back into my memory and I would have 681 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:07,000 remembered the basic tone of the light that was in this playroom with my brother, you 682 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,400 know, what kind, I knew what kind of light bulbs we had in there or whatever, you know, 683 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:11,800 I knew the color of the carpet. 684 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,160 I knew that how brightly painted the toys were, this kind of thing. 685 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:22,240 And how I was seeing it back in this experience was so much sharper than that. 686 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:30,600 So much, I don't know at what ages I experienced seeing things in definition, if that's even 687 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:35,080 the right word, how you can have, you can have things where you would even say the colors 688 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:41,320 of a shirt against a pair of suspenders over the shirt or whatever, you know, you would 689 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,000 say there's a difference in those colors, there's a place where this color begins and 690 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:50,560 that color ends, you know, on earth, everything about real life is much more subdued that 691 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:56,600 way and everything in those memories, everything about this life going back, there seemed very 692 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:02,520 sharp definition between every different color, between every different thing. 693 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,440 I would almost say as though somebody were painting bright yellow lines between the dark 694 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,720 blue and the red or whatever, and it was funny, I guess in some ways it's like when 695 00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:15,880 you put a, like a glow in the dark vest on and you want it to be bright in the darkness 696 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,720 and it has not only the bright color but then also the reflective strips on top of that that 697 00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:25,280 are a different material made to shine, you know, all these things, it just felt like 698 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:31,240 everything about the, what I saw of my life was, was very defined. 699 00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:36,160 I just, and, and, and again, so, so again, I thought, well, you know, I thought I lived 700 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,400 life at the time, this was my memory of a thing that happened, you know, but again, when 701 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,480 it came time to say you can do what you choose to do with this record that you've just seen, 702 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:51,840 I just thought the fact that everything was so bright and so definite meant that again, 703 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,240 I couldn't argue with it, you know, I could add footnotes or whatever I thought I needed 704 00:42:55,240 --> 00:43:00,320 to do but nobody would ever, me or anybody else anywhere would never get away from the 705 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,240 fact that this is the record, this is how it stands, it happened. 706 00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:08,280 Okay, before we wrap up, two other quick things. 707 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,440 One is on a scale of one to ten, how much fear of death do you have? 708 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:17,080 Oh, I didn't mention this, I just, I feel like, I don't know when in the experience 709 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,360 this really happened, maybe, maybe all along a few different other things I did mention, 710 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,640 but, but I did have time, I felt like I had time to think about this a little bit and 711 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:32,120 I thought, again, I don't want to die because like I wanted to do things in the world, you 712 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,360 know, I wanted to grow up and be an adult, you know, that, I thought I was an adult when 713 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,920 I was four years old, so I, that I was living for that, you know, at the same time it was, 714 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,920 I don't want to die meaning, and I hear other people talk about this in experiences at least 715 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,680 sometimes that it's just your body has a natural response, right? 716 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:54,400 It's gonna fight for life, it is gonna fight with every, you know, the more dire a situation 717 00:43:54,400 --> 00:44:01,000 gets, the more specifically your body is going to fight to stay alive, you know, it's a thing, 718 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:07,400 you know, and, and that was, that was not fun to be living with, I mean, as much as, 719 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,000 again, there came that moment when I was going, I guess, you know, I'm still alive, I'm still 720 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,400 me, but like, it's not what I was experiencing just a second ago. 721 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,600 I'm not, again, I wasn't, I wasn't fighting anymore. 722 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,200 And that's the thing, I didn't feel like I fought the drowning, it was just my body 723 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:27,760 was doing some fighting for air and so there was that for just a little bit, I don't know 724 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,040 how long it went on and, and I was, I was happy when it went away. 725 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:33,800 But what about today? 726 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:39,520 And so that's the thing, I am not fond of the idea of being in that position again, 727 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:40,520 right? 728 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,680 However it is, I have to die in the future, it's gonna happen somehow, you know, and 729 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:51,760 I don't like the idea of having to spend any time with my body's response to, no, we're 730 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,560 not gonna die, we're gonna keep living, you know, but same thing as lots of people say, 731 00:44:55,560 --> 00:45:00,680 I think, especially if you're in some situation where death starts to seem preferable or something, 732 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:07,840 you know, you're not gonna be, I'm not gonna be worried at all about what's coming after 733 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,600 I die, you know, I know that, that I'm still gonna be me, that I'm still gonna be alive, 734 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:16,120 I still trust perfectly well, but things are gonna happen and, well, I had a pretty good 735 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,880 life all things considered and I assume that it's gonna be at least that good elsewhere, 736 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:24,960 you know, I don't know why it wouldn't be, you know, so it's not, it's, it's the dyeing, 737 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,440 not the having died, I suppose. 738 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:33,080 That's a good way to put it, the dyeing, not the actually being dead, because the dyeing 739 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:38,040 may be painful or long or very unpleasant for some reason. 740 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:43,520 There are, is somebody out there today that's listening, that's having a rough day, maybe 741 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:50,400 because they've lost a loved one or they're worried about the future or something else, 742 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,360 what message of hope can you leave with us? 743 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:58,240 I have to take it into consideration with everything before and after the experience 744 00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:04,040 and I've also had other experiences that you couldn't call out of body or not near death, 745 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:10,680 but that have been at least as powerful and real as that and I'm not just saying even 746 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:17,840 mentally or spiritually but physically, I've had physical experiences and taking everything 747 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:25,920 together for sure there is a God and he is a good God and what we understand by good 748 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:33,400 is it's, it's certainly good, you know, but like for instance, the subduedness of life 749 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:38,800 compared to the brightness of the life review, our understanding of the word good when we 750 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:45,840 talk about a good God is so subdued and what God really is like is that bright stuff. 751 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:51,800 I mean, honestly, I think this life, all the experiences we have, I've gone through periods 752 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,880 of depression and other things too, life hasn't always been wonderful. 753 00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:00,520 Just everything about this world is a softer take. 754 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:06,120 God is giving us a softer take on experiencing all the things we go through. 755 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:11,760 He's not going to just give it to us spear in the gut, you know, he doesn't do that. 756 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:16,760 And so whatever we lose, whatever we have to, you know, everything I thought I knew 757 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,280 has to get put down the drain and we have to start over, you know, all the, all the 758 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:25,800 sad and hard things we go through in life, even just from that experience in the water, 759 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,200 God's there. 760 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:32,720 I think that I, from that experience, I would say the sense of God being there is very much 761 00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:38,120 a on everywhere in and through everything. 762 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:42,040 I don't see him, I don't feel him. 763 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,840 I write, he's not touching me, you know, kind of thing, but he's definitely there. 764 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:50,160 And I mean, I'm not, that's not to say I don't also believe God is a person as physical 765 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,680 as I am in different states and worlds, but, but the sense, and I know other people talk 766 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,360 about this too, that the sense of every whereness, that's a funny way to say it, or the sense 767 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:07,400 of then the intelligence, the mind that is, that is the atmosphere, that is the environment. 768 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:12,400 I mean, it's, it's a, it's an energy, it's an energetic thinking, a live mind. 769 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:17,960 I mean, that was what was telling me, you get to do with what you choose with what you 770 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:19,040 saw here. 771 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:24,800 And then once I said, I'm letting things stand as they were, told me that it was all getting 772 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,760 rolled up and put away safely somewhere for some future time, you know, older I get, I 773 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,320 think, well, we can't escape that then, there's no getting away from it. 774 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:36,040 You know, it is, and it's around us and it's, it loves us. 775 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:40,360 If the environment, if the, if the atmosphere around you could be hugging you, that's what 776 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:41,360 it's doing. 777 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,880 I know it was a big question, a big open-ended question, but I appreciate all of that. 778 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,320 I appreciate your enthusiasm and your smile. 779 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,840 Thank you so much for being with us today, Catherine. 780 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,920 Oh, thank you for having me. 781 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,720 Thanks again for listening and sharing this podcast. 782 00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:04,800 Don't forget to hit the follow or subscribe button and sign up for our newsletter at roundtriptest.com. 783 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:09,080 If you want to share your near-death experience, or if you have questions or comments about 784 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,600 the show, send an email to ericatroundtriptest.com. 785 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:35,960 Until then, I wish you everything good that you're looking for in this life and the next.