1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,400 From the time that they pronounced me deaf was a good 45 minutes. 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,440 They cut my clothes and then they paddled my heart, my heart had stopped. 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,120 And I could see people screaming and crying, but I didn't realize that was actually my 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,320 physical body because I was somewhere else. 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:27,400 The only thing that I could feel, if you could imagine, absolute love and peace, there wasn't 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,400 anything else to be felt. 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,520 I was greeted by people I'd known in the past. 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,160 I'm back home again. 9 00:00:34,160 --> 00:00:36,640 Incredibly safe and felt at home. 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:44,560 Welcome back to Round Trip Death and part two of our interview with Dr. Raymond Moody 11 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,240 and Paul Perry. 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:51,760 We ended episode one with the question, what proof is there of life after death? 13 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,320 And we'll pick it up from there. 14 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:00,440 I love that term and I've heard it so many times that their experience was more real 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,640 than real. 16 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:07,240 And those of us that have not been through it will probably never understand that, but 17 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,320 more real than real. 18 00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:15,120 But for the antagonists, they're still going to say, Paul, your book says proof. 19 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,760 What other proof do you have? 20 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,080 Well I think that many of the skeptics, I still have to use that word because I'm trained 21 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:23,640 to use it. 22 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,560 Many of the skeptics start at this, some other subjects, they start at this subject 23 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:30,560 with disbelief. 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:36,640 And what I always say to them is, if you turn that around and started studying this subject 25 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:41,600 from a point of view of belief instead of disbelief, you would arrive at completely 26 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,560 different summation for yourself. 27 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:45,640 And I think that's really true. 28 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,720 I think a lot of people just, they get this, well, the skeptics have a certain way of believing. 29 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:51,720 Sorry about that. 30 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:52,720 Yeah, it is true. 31 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,560 I mean, they're ossified. 32 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:55,560 They're ossified. 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,960 If you can break that and say, well, you know, read this as a believer as opposed to someone 34 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:01,160 who doesn't believe. 35 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,880 And then if you don't believe it at the end, that's fine. 36 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,360 But you're not given it a chance if you start with disbelief. 37 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,120 And that works so that the people can do it. 38 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:18,120 I would rather take that just a step further and say, please start with, I don't know. 39 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:23,120 Try to get rid of your preconceived notion of either I either believe or I don't believe. 40 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:28,200 And I'm sure of it because some of us are just so hardheaded and so stubborn. 41 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:29,200 It doesn't matter what you say. 42 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,760 You're not going to change our belief because that somehow puts me down. 43 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,320 So instead, let's be humble enough to say, I don't know. 44 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,560 Now I'm going to study it and I'm going to read and learn and listen. 45 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,920 Some people do they're believing by the numbers. 46 00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:46,520 You know, it's like a instruction book. 47 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:53,320 You got to think and these unrelected skeptics who don't even know what the word means. 48 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:58,160 If they really penetrated what their theory is, it's called the technical term for that 49 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,920 is humanism is what they are. 50 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:07,880 And it's the so-called skeptics are part of the American humanist society and humanism 51 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:15,480 not in the sense of the Thomas Moore and Erasmus and so on backfruit. 52 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:21,920 The modern humanist movement is a religion that was formed because there were a lot of 53 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:28,120 atheists who had had church and they they had decided there's no God, but they still 54 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,480 work next into that social. 55 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:36,000 And they have to have they thought they had to have some rituals for marriage or funerals 56 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,000 or whatever. 57 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,760 So it's a religion. 58 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:46,280 And it's the religion is that there is no God, but that church is good thing. 59 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:52,720 And so that's why humanism is and you know, it's it's it's a horrible thing that these 60 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:58,400 people are perpetrating on the minds of the young people because it's a very important 61 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:04,520 thing to learn about the history of Western thought and where all these things came from. 62 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:11,960 And if you misrepresent one of the foundational intellectual movements of Western thought, 63 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,280 then you're spoiling minds of all these kids. 64 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:20,720 And that's what those skeptics actually humanists are doing. 65 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,000 And the guy who founded this was a great guy. 66 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,160 I want to take this in a little bit more personal direction now. 67 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:33,960 So Paul and Raymond, all of the things that you've learned through your studies and your 68 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,320 interviews and everything else, how has it affected your life? 69 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,440 Has it changed the way you view things? 70 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,280 Tell me about what it's done for you. 71 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:49,400 Well, it's a long process because I found out about this when I was 18 years old and 72 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,680 now I'm 79. 73 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,280 And so I can't separate it very well. 74 00:04:54,280 --> 00:05:02,280 I do know that, say I was my dad was a medic surgeon in World War II, the Pacific Theater. 75 00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:06,360 I'm sure he saw gosh awful, terrible, horrible stuff. 76 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,240 But they didn't talk about it that group. 77 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:14,080 But the way it manifested in my life was he was very hostile to religion. 78 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,600 And so I just didn't have any experience there. 79 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,320 And my astronomy was my thing. 80 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:29,040 And the idea of an afterlife, I remember specifically, when my awakening to the notion 81 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:37,640 of the afterlife was reading Plato's Republic because Plato became my hero after page three 82 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,520 of the Republic when I was 18 years old. 83 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:48,000 And so the fact that Plato took this question of an afterlife seriously was what woke me 84 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:53,560 up to it because the guy like that thinks there's something to this. 85 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,120 Maybe I should start thinking about it. 86 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,120 But all through this, I just I didn't know what to think. 87 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,600 My process, like I said, has ended up as I give up. 88 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,920 It's not the nictontological conclusion. 89 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,120 But then I can't think my way out of this. 90 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:19,600 That in that context, I just don't know to what degree it's affected the way I am because 91 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,320 I was 18 years old. 92 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,280 And I don't know. 93 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:29,400 It's hard. I can't really imagine how my life might have unfolded without that. 94 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,600 How about you, Paul? 95 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,720 Yeah, it has made me, which is very important in my profession, it has made me far more 96 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:44,040 curious about really everything in the world because you start to realize that the person 97 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:52,680 who's next to you, based on our research and based on other people's research, as a spirit, 98 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:57,000 are spiritual beings as well as physical beings. 99 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,320 And I think that has changed my view toward mankind a lot. 100 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,040 Is that people have a spirit, they have a spiritual life. 101 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:09,160 Oftentimes, you know, I just said this happened this week. 102 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:14,720 Someone started talking to me, a guy who's 80 years old, and he said, I've never thought 103 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,960 about my spiritual life. 104 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,960 And it's only recently through, he's a good friend and through two books that I've given 105 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,480 him and then other events that have taken place. 106 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:32,200 He said it's, and I realize I'm way behind in studying my spiritual life. 107 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:37,040 And I feel like I'm not way behind, but I also feel like there's so much more to know. 108 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,160 And it's that need to know that really drives me on. 109 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,600 So that's how it's changing. 110 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,040 That's interesting. 111 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:50,400 Another thing just on that line that I'm sure you've heard as many times more than I have 112 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:56,200 is people say that they now realize we're all connected. 113 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,240 Explain what you think they're talking about with that statement. 114 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,600 I've had it explained a whole bunch of different ways to me. 115 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,040 I've got a thought. 116 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:14,040 And the way it's come to me is I am not religious still, but I have a relationship with God. 117 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,600 And like I say, I just talked to God all the time. 118 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,600 He's never said a word to me about religion. 119 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:26,120 So I'm not interested in religion, but I have a personal relationship with God. 120 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:37,800 In those terms, this is hard to say, but the ultimate object of skepticism, okay, in addition 121 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:45,120 to the intellectual side of it, was calmness. 122 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,560 And even David Hume said, you know, he even challenged the notion of the 123 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:57,320 you know, that he said, as to the impressions which arise from the senses. 124 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:03,680 He said, in my opinion, it is other than beyond reason, like the rational capacity of the 125 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:12,640 rational method to determine whether these impressions arise from the object or from 126 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:19,640 the creative power of our mind or from the author of our being. 127 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:26,640 And that is always, even before I met Hume, it's been obvious to me that you can't really 128 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,480 know what is happening in our society. 129 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:38,360 See, Hume said, even with that profound skepticism, he said, see that, but I go to the dinner 130 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,720 party just like everybody else. 131 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:41,720 Right? 132 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,600 He said, and he was very social. 133 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,880 You know, he says, I go through the, I do like anybody else, even though the skepticism 134 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,120 goes on, that I live my life. 135 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,040 And so that in puro too, said that same thing. 136 00:09:55,040 --> 00:10:00,320 See, it's about this life we're living is it makes you calm in this life. 137 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:06,160 And what I think is happening in our society is that now something that was outrageous 138 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,920 in 1970. 139 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:14,320 Now in 2023 is just a reversal of common sense. 140 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:21,080 And the older you get is the older you get, the more percentage of the people you know 141 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:27,680 your age have had some sort of experience of stepping over to another world. 142 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:36,680 So that oddly, Sylvie, what was extraordinary in 1970 has now kind of settled in to common 143 00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:42,520 sense because, you know, if somebody hasn't had a near death experience, they know somebody 144 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,000 who has. 145 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:50,840 So this has been integrated into the world in a way so that it's just part of the social 146 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:55,400 world that the skeptic is in bed and bedding. 147 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,240 Any other thoughts on that, Paul, on how we're all connected? 148 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,240 I had this thing that I did called the Denny's experiment. 149 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:04,240 Okay. 150 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:05,240 And Denny's is a restaurant. 151 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,480 I don't know if there's, they're still around. 152 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,080 And I went to a Denny's late at night. 153 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:11,080 I was out with friends. 154 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:12,320 We went to a movie. 155 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,560 We stopped at Denny's for the usual late night meal. 156 00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:19,000 And I was working out a book with Raymond at the time and they said, well, what are 157 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,000 you working on? 158 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,080 I told them what I was doing, a book on near death experiences. 159 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,400 And a good majority of the people at the table said, I don't, they don't, that doesn't 160 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:29,960 believe, they're very skeptical about it. 161 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:30,960 That doesn't happen. 162 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:32,560 I don't believe that. 163 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:37,320 So it was late at night and I'm in this Denny's, there's probably 20 people in there. 164 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:42,000 So I stood up and said, Hey, here's what I'm working on right now. 165 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:43,120 I'm a writer. 166 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,720 I'm working on a book on near death experiences. 167 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:48,800 I described the near death experience. 168 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,680 How many people have had this? 169 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:57,840 And about 15 of the people had, I said they had either had it or they had witnessed it 170 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,040 or they had witnessed some similar phenomenon in their family. 171 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:07,760 Yeah, their grandmother passing over and having a terminal lucidity moment. 172 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:12,160 Some people had had heart attacks and had gone up tunnels, things like that. 173 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,280 They'd never been really willing to talk about that. 174 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:22,000 But once they're given, once they're given the door to go through and an opportunity 175 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:30,240 to speak about it, they realize that these are far more common than they ever believed. 176 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:36,400 I think it's that commonality of the spirit that brings people together. 177 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:41,760 And that's part of the reason, that commonality of the spirit is part of the reason that we 178 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,440 all say that we're all made of the same thing. 179 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,000 We're all tied together. 180 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:48,000 I think that's very true. 181 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,480 I think that's realization to many people. 182 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:58,560 I've come to realize, talking with thousands of people who've had these life reviews, in 183 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:03,680 terms of your question, Eric, in terms of are we all connected? 184 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:10,400 Well, obviously we are in this life review because you see that in the life review, you 185 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:16,400 see that you are the person and you are in the consciousness of the person within you. 186 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:24,200 And I just love that saying by the master Eckhart who said, the eyes with which I see 187 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:31,240 God are the same eyes with which God sees me. 188 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:37,280 I think of that often, that it's like, what I'm experiencing right now, God is experiencing 189 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:46,480 too and he's watching all of these infinite number, almost of life narratives interweave. 190 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:52,600 I can see my own life from the first person perspective. 191 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:57,880 In the life review, you realize that everybody you meet, you're connected with. 192 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:58,880 That's interesting. 193 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:04,120 Okay, I have a question that I ask the experiencers that I talked to. 194 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:10,320 Let's get a perspective from your personal, this is personal about you guys again. 195 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,760 How much fear of death do you have on a scale of one to 10? 196 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,560 How much fear? 197 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:22,320 I have to say first, see, I don't as a clinician with a lot of people because of their fear 198 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:23,320 of death. 199 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:28,040 Okay, so what the first thing I ask them is, what is your fear of death? 200 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:35,720 See, I'll tell you where mine is, is, I've had kidney stones and gallstones, please, 201 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,480 no more. 202 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:42,440 Then other people are afraid, for example, of oblivion. 203 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,520 And I'm not afraid of that. 204 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:53,720 And then other people are afraid of the separation from their loved ones, count me in. 205 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:59,480 I'd love to be able to stay with my kids a while longer, because they're still coming 206 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:00,680 along. 207 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:08,160 Other people are afraid of hell because of their severe religious background, whatever. 208 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:14,280 It's different people are, and many people are afraid of the unknown. 209 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:19,720 And the unknown has never been scary to me as the known that scares me. 210 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:26,280 And so I think that it's just a panoply of different emotions people identify as the 211 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:27,280 fear of death. 212 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:33,640 And you first have to identify which one, a particular one, or once a particular person 213 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,560 is suffering with. 214 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,880 And to me, the residual was still pain. 215 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:43,160 Okay, I'm going to take out of this equation, leading up to death. 216 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:48,960 All the pain and misery that someone may go through leading up to death, the actual time 217 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:57,920 when my heart stops and there's either oblivion or there's something else, do you have fear 218 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,160 of what's beyond that? 219 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:06,680 I don't think it's reasonable to tell people that you shouldn't have a fear of death. 220 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,720 Something that is so totally new in a person's life. 221 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:16,440 They hear about it, but when it finally happens to them, it's an old different animal. 222 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,320 I think everyone greets it in their own way where they greets us in the right word. 223 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:27,240 And I'm nervous about it because it's a totally new experience. 224 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:33,440 But afraid of death, I don't know if I really think I'm totally afraid of it. 225 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:38,640 Other than it finally, we finally get to answer the question that we've been trying to answer 226 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:44,240 all these years with all the books we've done and all the research we've done is we finally 227 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,320 get the answer. 228 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:51,400 So it'll be refreshing in that way, but I'm still nervous and I'll admittedly say I'm 229 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,480 fearful of death. 230 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:54,480 Thank you. 231 00:16:54,480 --> 00:17:01,320 There's also on your theory of personal identity. 232 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,440 And that's a big question in this whole thing of life after life. 233 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,280 If there's survival, what is it that survives? 234 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:17,880 And where we came in was with Alcmaeon, actually, and Pythagoras came up with the notion of 235 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,960 the immaterial immortal soul. 236 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:28,280 And then Plato made that official and the church, the Christian church, took the Plato's 237 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:34,520 phato as the basis of their theology of the afterlife, which may seem startling to some. 238 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:39,680 But I found out that in Bertrand Russell's history of Western philosophy when I read 239 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,680 it in 1964, but he's not an expert. 240 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:50,320 So when I started teaching philosophy, I asked experts on religious studies whether that's 241 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:51,320 true. 242 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,240 And they said, yeah, the Christian theology of the afterlife and the immortal soul comes 243 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,280 from Plato's phato. 244 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:03,520 And so you could be burned alive for questioning that for hundreds of years. 245 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:10,480 But then once things started loosening up, like Thomas Hobbes and the 1500s, he pointed 246 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:17,640 out that it doesn't make any sense to talk about immaterial objects. 247 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:25,360 And so then Locke, who had to do with the formation of our constitution, as you know, 248 00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:30,720 Locke said, well, our personal identity consists of our consciousness and our memories. 249 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:38,160 Then a little while later, the great skeptic David Hume, looking inside himself said, when 250 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:43,720 I look inside myself, all I see is the impression of the moment. 251 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,440 There's never anything statement. 252 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:52,320 So his idea was that, which is in some modern psychologists now, it's like the self is a 253 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,640 kind of illusion or doesn't really exist. 254 00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:01,840 But where I've come to that is, I think that your personal identity is your story. 255 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:02,840 Right? 256 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:03,840 What am I? 257 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:11,240 I am the story of a guy who was born in Porterdale, Georgia, June 30th, 1944, who did this and 258 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,760 that, this bearstilk name of Raymond Udy. 259 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:23,120 And so I think that the nature of personal identity has to do with narrative. 260 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:29,160 But you know, think about it, whenever anything new happens to you, what you do is your mind 261 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:34,360 automatically integrates that event into your continuing life story. 262 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:35,360 Right? 263 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:37,680 And cinematographer said that. 264 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,080 It's called the Kulikoff effect, I think. 265 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:47,560 But if you present any two random objects to people like a Coke can and a pair of glasses, 266 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:53,400 and you present those in sequence to somebody, then the mind automatically starts weaving 267 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,200 the story to connect the two. 268 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:02,480 So consciousness itself is narrative based. 269 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:07,920 And that's why I think that David Hume and his great skeptical essay about the nature 270 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:13,800 of the afterlife, in which he pointed out that it's logically incomprehensible. 271 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:22,080 But then he went on to say that he felt that the only kind of afterlife that a rational 272 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,240 person could entertain would be reincarnation. 273 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:32,440 And he doesn't elaborate why, but I suspect that, you know, Hume was mainly a historian. 274 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:38,720 So he understood the relevance and importance of narrative in human affairs. 275 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:46,160 So it would make sense that of all the afterlife, reincarnation is the most story. 276 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:51,280 That's one thing that people thinking about the afterlife have not really adequately accounted 277 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,120 for is the narrative nature of consciousness. 278 00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:56,320 Okay. 279 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,640 You guys being researchers, you're going to hate the next question. 280 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,360 The last time I asked one of these, you called it the million dollar question. 281 00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:07,440 I'm just going to throw out something that I sometimes ponder on just to see if you 282 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,080 have any opinions from all of the research that you've done. 283 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:18,320 And that is that some people tell us during their NDEs, I was given a choice of whether 284 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,720 I wanted to come back and stay. 285 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,360 Other people are just told, you're going back. 286 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:24,360 Okay. 287 00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:28,520 There's, I'm sure there's a lot of reasons for both that we don't understand. 288 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,800 What I ponder is how many people are given the choice. 289 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:39,960 You can stay here or you can go back, but those people choose to stay and those we don't 290 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:41,120 ever hear from. 291 00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:42,120 That's right. 292 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:43,120 Yeah. 293 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:44,840 Any thoughts on that topic? 294 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,120 It's hard to, hard to come up with an analysis of that. 295 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:50,120 It is. 296 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:52,200 And it's, you know, if some people say, how did you get back? 297 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:53,200 I don't know. 298 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:59,600 One moment I was in this light, the next moment I was back on the operating room table with 299 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,800 no sense of transition. 300 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:07,880 Some people say that this light or a relative friend who's died there says, it's not your 301 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:08,880 time yet. 302 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,680 You've got to go back. 303 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,480 Others are given a choice. 304 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,840 You can either stay in the experience, you're having to go back. 305 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:21,120 And obviously all the ones I've talked to made that, you know, chose to come back. 306 00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:29,080 And so as you say, it's, you know, it's, there's no basis to contemplate or to think about 307 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,400 what happens to somebody who chose to stay. 308 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:33,400 Yeah. 309 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,320 I mean, let me put it this way though. 310 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:40,120 And when you do, when you do interviews with people who've had near death experiences, 311 00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:44,960 they frequently say, I wanted to stay, but I couldn't. 312 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:45,960 I didn't. 313 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:52,600 And whether they were given the option or not, they came back and they maybe didn't 314 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,520 like that they came back because it was so wonderful over there. 315 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,920 I had not seen a study on that. 316 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:04,440 That would be an interesting study to post in your death experience, ask people if they 317 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,240 would rather be there than here. 318 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,480 I haven't seen that, but I think the vast majority really liked it. 319 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:19,200 I hear all the giant people say, there's a kind of nostalgia that, and, and my friend 320 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:24,480 George Richie talked about this with respect to his patients. 321 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:29,440 And he said often when he was some, you know, interviewing a patient or whatever, he would 322 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:36,400 have this kind of flash and a kind of nostalgia and a sort of momentary connection. 323 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,600 It's kind of like going your, your first trip to Italy. 324 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,400 You always want to go back because it's so beautiful and different. 325 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:44,400 Yeah. 326 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,400 Well, and you might miss it. 327 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:46,400 Yeah. 328 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,560 A lot of people say it felt so much like home that they really miss it very much. 329 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,400 A couple other things. 330 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:58,400 As a host of this podcast where I'm mostly interviewing people that have had near death 331 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:03,480 experiences, what other questions should I be asking? 332 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,880 Any thoughts that would help me and help our audience? 333 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:14,720 I would ask them, uh, how is having a near death experience affected your, your social 334 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,520 life if you want to, you know, nail it down to specifics? 335 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,800 I think that's one thing I would do. 336 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,120 I think that's somehow it's affected their relationship with their spouse. 337 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:25,120 That's a good one. 338 00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:28,680 Really to bring it into a hard perspective. 339 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:29,680 Yeah. 340 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:34,200 A question I often ask people, I don't know if you know this, Eric, but I was a forensic 341 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,480 psychiatrist that worked in a maximum security unit for the criminal insane. 342 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:47,360 I've probably interviewed as a minimum 300 people who committed homicide, more realistically, 343 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,760 probably about 400 because you lose track, right? 344 00:24:50,760 --> 00:25:01,480 And so, um, I always ask people, well, how has this done to your, your unloving side? 345 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:07,480 Is what people say is that even after this experience where you see the importance of 346 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:14,560 love, that then you come back to your life as a human being and it's still very difficult 347 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,000 to negotiate anger and stuff like that. 348 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:23,880 George Richie said to me, he said, Raymond, he said, this experience makes your humanity 349 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:30,600 even more of a burden in a way because you see the ideal, but then in the reality, you 350 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,200 fly off the handle as George did sometimes. 351 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:40,680 And so, you know, that is something I ask people like, how has it affected the fact 352 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,080 that you're a human being who still has all these outbursts and stuff? 353 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,080 Yeah. 354 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:52,280 So, here's a topic of shared death experiences we had on this podcast a while back, Hadley 355 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,520 Valajos, known as Nurse Hadley. 356 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,080 I don't know if you guys know her. 357 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,080 Oh, you're right. 358 00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,080 Here. 359 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:00,080 Mm-hmm. 360 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:06,960 She's a hospice nurse, young hospice nurse, and she told some really interesting, amazing 361 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:15,920 stories that experiences that she had being with people as they died, as they passed on. 362 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:23,440 They didn't seem to fit so much into your definition of a shared death experience, but 363 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:31,080 she was there and she observed them very often, seeing loved ones, talking to loved 364 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,280 ones, things like that. 365 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,680 I don't know if you consider that part of a shared death experience also. 366 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:38,680 Yeah. 367 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,480 Well, I wasn't thinking in those terms, but you see this all the time. 368 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:48,960 I remember the first time I saw her, an elderly woman, I think she was about 80, and I went 369 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,200 into the room and she was talking to someone. 370 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,760 So I went in the room, sat down beside her. 371 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,840 She said, oh, Dr. Riddie, I know what you're thinking. 372 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,080 So you think this old woman is just crazy. 373 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,480 And I said, no, no, I'm beginning to get it. 374 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,200 You know, I knew that she was talking to her relatives. 375 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,560 Well, and for Hadley, she had been an atheist and this made her a believer that there is 376 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,200 something more because she's witnessed it so many times. 377 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,400 Well, I'll say about that too. 378 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:28,120 A lot of people who have near-death experiences become less religious but more spiritual. 379 00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:31,640 And then there are people who become more religious. 380 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:38,560 Like occasionally you run into NDEs who leave their Protestant church and they go into a 381 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,120 Catholic church because they like the structure. 382 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:47,360 So it's sort of all over the place sometimes, what these experiences do to people. 383 00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:48,360 Okay. 384 00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:54,200 Lastly, before we sign off here, I try to leave at the end of these discussions people 385 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,280 with some kind of a message of hope. 386 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:01,640 You know, we live in a tough world and it's sometimes it's hard to believe. 387 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,880 As you have met with so many people, I'm sure one of the commonalities that you've also 388 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:12,360 come across is their feeling of extreme love. 389 00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:14,920 Many describe it as God's love. 390 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,720 Can you think of a couple of times that people have described that to you? 391 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,000 Could you describe it to us? 392 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:26,840 Well, well, one interesting thing about it is they say you can't describe it. 393 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:35,120 It's, you know, is so far beyond anything we've experienced as law in this world. 394 00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:39,800 And one way I think about it is, you know, love is there's so many different types of 395 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:40,800 it. 396 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:48,680 In America, the romantic love seems to be in most people's minds, the sort of the core. 397 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,240 And what I think about romantic love is, I mean, I haven't really studied it. 398 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,560 I've just in books, but I've observed it. 399 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:03,440 I don't know that anemology, but I do know that romantic love in the French anyway, 400 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,040 Romain is a novel. 401 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:13,480 And so what I think that romantic love is, it's, I've heard it described as a religion 402 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,240 of two people. 403 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:20,440 What the people in romantic love are focused on is their story, right? 404 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,120 Like how they met. 405 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,480 And so the role, and that's how I think of romantic love. 406 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,940 It's focused on the story of how they met and the adventures and so on. 407 00:29:31,940 --> 00:29:34,480 And then there's all kinds of other loves as well. 408 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:40,360 But I think everybody's tried to describe this love for me, you know, for, to me that 409 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,080 they experienced that they say there isn't any love. 410 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,920 Paul, do you remember any specific ones? 411 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,080 Well, I've heard a lot of people who, when they say after my near death experience, I 412 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,080 realize that it's all about love. 413 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,160 The world's all made of love. 414 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,480 And they're embarrassed to say it. 415 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:03,560 And I think in part because it's indescribable and they'll say, well, you know, but I don't 416 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,840 know what I really mean. 417 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:11,320 You know, I can just, I just know that the world is about love for one another and unity. 418 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,920 But I don't really know why it's like that. 419 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,680 I don't know what I really mean when I say that. 420 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:24,320 So I think it's the thing I would give to people is it's so wonderful, it's ineffable. 421 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,480 You know, I think that's, we have to be honest with that. 422 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,320 It's so wonderful that it's ineffable. 423 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:29,320 Yeah. 424 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:34,120 And what I've really come to out of all of this is that, you know, life necessarily has 425 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,000 troubles and turmoil. 426 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:42,840 Yet the general, the message I get from everybody I've talked with, we've had these profound 427 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:50,640 near death experiences, is that all that troubling aspect and the agony and so on, as soon as 428 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:58,080 you're out of here, that it has a whole different prospect to it, that you see those things, 429 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:02,080 not as terrible things, but as learning events and so on. 430 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,240 Eric in 1960, Saturday night was 68. 431 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,960 I was a graduate student in philosophy at the University of Virginia. 432 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,080 A Broadway musical comedy came through town. 433 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,000 It was a touring company from New York. 434 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:26,440 And I forgot what the musical was, but I remember that in the musical, there was this terrific 435 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:32,320 comic villain, complete with the black top hat and the black cape. 436 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,160 And he was just, you know, palpably mean. 437 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:43,240 And so, all right, now the play is over, the curtain comes down and then the hero and hero 438 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:49,480 and come out for their curtain call and it's, yeah. 439 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:55,440 Then the supporting actors and actors come streaming out and swoop across the stage and 440 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,760 it's, yeah. 441 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:04,480 And then the villain came out in the spotlight. 442 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:09,920 And I was sitting on the front row, so this very obvious silence. 443 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,120 Just like dead silence. 444 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,800 And you know, it seemed like it went on for an eternity, but I had a second or two, I 445 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,120 don't know, but it was just very palpable, that silence. 446 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:30,680 And then behind, I heard a collective, like a lot of people kind of come into the senses 447 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,800 that once said, oh, this is a play. 448 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:41,160 And then you heard a few scattered around and then, and then he got the loudest applause 449 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,880 of all. 450 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:48,480 And I think, you know, that's kind of how it happens in your near death experience. 451 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:54,680 People who in life may seem like they're, you know, the big villain that very often in 452 00:32:54,680 --> 00:33:00,400 the life review, people say, well, that was a necessary part of the goodness of the story 453 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,400 to himself. 454 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:07,760 It's that my point here is that the change of perspective on your life that you get in 455 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:15,120 this life review is so radical, you know, that it's just, I've only known one person 456 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:21,320 that I know of who had a, I knew her before her near death experience and after her. 457 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:29,600 And this was a young woman that I met when I was a resident and I was doing a rotation 458 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,080 in ematology. 459 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:39,680 So one of the people, the patients that I had in that service was this young woman who 460 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,240 was just a wonderful young woman. 461 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:47,360 She was maybe in her early twenties, just a very fine person. 462 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,200 And so she had a platelet problem. 463 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,840 And so they were worried that during her delivery, she was pregnant that, you know, that this 464 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,000 would cause problems. 465 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:02,400 So that's why the hematologists were there to try to get the platelet problem solved. 466 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,040 And so then I got off the rotation. 467 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,760 That was the end of my rotation. 468 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,240 So I left before she had her baby. 469 00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:16,400 Now flash forward about three years later and I was in the middle of the night I was 470 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,520 sitting in the hospital, right? 471 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:19,520 Cafeteria. 472 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,760 I was on call for psychiatry that night. 473 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,000 And this presence swept in. 474 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,400 I mean, there's really no way to describe this. 475 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:37,400 When I met her three years before her hair was blonde, this presence who swept in, it 476 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,920 was like it was hard to describe it. 477 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,480 But she was so light and she came down the stage. 478 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,400 Oh, Dr. Moody, you don't remember me. 479 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,640 But three years ago, I was in the hospital with platelet problem. 480 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:58,720 It came back and she said, and then shortly after you left, baby delivered and I had a 481 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:00,880 cardiac arrest. 482 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:07,320 And she said that when she told the nurses that they said, oh, that Dr. Moody was there 483 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,800 a few weeks ago, studies this. 484 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,640 So that was the connection. 485 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:16,360 But my point here is to change this person is just indescribable. 486 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,120 It was like a totally different person. 487 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:24,880 I mean, I wasn't a racking master, she had said who she was. 488 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,880 It was just, it's still the same as she's to me to this day to think about that. 489 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,240 And that, of course, would be a very difficult thing to study since we don't know who's going 490 00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:36,200 to have the NDEs. 491 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,920 Prior to, we can't study them the before. 492 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:40,320 Yeah, that's right. 493 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:47,000 But the reason she was there in the hospital was that this experience had made, she took 494 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,000 up nursing. 495 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,640 Yeah, and we see that with the NDEs as well. 496 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:55,080 People change professions as a result of their new death experience. 497 00:35:55,080 --> 00:36:02,160 And they leave very well paying professions to focus more on people who need their help. 498 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,880 That's pretty amazing experience, pretty amazing. 499 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,960 Any last thoughts you would like to share? 500 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,480 Well, let me say one thing. 501 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:10,480 Okay. 502 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,600 And I make documentary films as well as writing books. 503 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:20,120 And at the end of many of my interviews, I asked the subject one, just one question, 504 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,040 what do you think happens when we die? 505 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,640 And I'm amazed at how quickly people answer that. 506 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,160 They've really given it some thought. 507 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:35,480 One of the people I asked that to was Prince Joseph Habsburg, who was a member of the Habsburg 508 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:43,080 clan, used to rule, I guess, Northern Europe, Germany and other places, Austria. 509 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,920 And I said, well, Joseph, what do you think is going to happen when you die? 510 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:52,720 And he just lit up and he said, it's going to be the most wonderful experience of my 511 00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:53,720 life. 512 00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:55,440 It'll be beautiful. 513 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:01,320 It's like jumping out of an airplane and hoping the parachute opens. 514 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:08,680 And I think that's where most people are when it comes to the end time is, gee, hope the 515 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,200 shoot opens. 516 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:19,600 I love what Ravallet said, and as he was dying, he said, I am going into the great perhaps. 517 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,000 To me, though, it's no longer perhaps. 518 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,000 I mean, I've just given up it. 519 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,040 And to the folks who are listening in, thank you for listening in. 520 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,560 I just hope you've gotten something out of this. 521 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,840 But it's a subject that I obviously like to talk about. 522 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:42,040 And my whole life experience with this, and it really does. 523 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:51,000 Ultimately, there's no reason to fret in agonizing in life, because in the end, it all works 524 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,000 out. 525 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,920 However, agonizing of it, as I've learned as part of it, is like you get involved in 526 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,760 this life by the troubles, and then you die, and then the troubles take on a different 527 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:04,760 demeanor. 528 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:11,280 Well, thank you so much for the two men that have proof of life after life. 529 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:12,960 I appreciate your time. 530 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,280 Raymond Moody and Paul Perry, thanks a lot for being here. 531 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:17,280 Thanks a lot, Eric. 532 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:18,280 Take care. 533 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:19,280 Thank you. 534 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:20,280 Thank you. 535 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:26,280 Thanks again for listening and sharing this podcast. 536 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,280 If you've had a roundtrip death experience, we would love to hear from you. 537 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,720 Send an email to eric at roundtripdeath.com. 538 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:38,560 Until then, I wish you everything good that you're looking for in this life and the next.