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From the time that they pronounced me deaf was a good 45 minutes.

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They cut my clothes and then they paddled my heart, my heart had stopped.

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And I could see people screaming and crying, but I didn't realize that was actually my

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physical body because I was somewhere else.

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The only thing that I could feel, if you could imagine, absolute love and peace, there wasn't

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anything else to be felt.

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I was greeted by people I'd known in the past.

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I'm back home again.

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Incredibly safe and felt at home.

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Welcome to this bonus episode of Round Trip Death.

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Earlier this week, we released episode number 342 with special guest Susan Walter.

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In that interview, we referenced a prior episode in which we had a discussion about children

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and NDEs with Dr. Melvin Morse.

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This show is an abridged version of that discussion, and I think you'll find it fascinating.

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Today on the show, we have an unusual guest and unusual in the fact that Dr. Morse, who

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we are about to hear from, is not someone who experienced a near-death experience, but

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he's someone that has studied the topic and dealt with a lot of people that have had them.

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And we're going to get a medical perspective on things today.

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So Dr. Melvin Morse, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much.

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It is such a pleasure, Eric.

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I've been looking forward to this.

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And before we get into your medical background, do you want to tell people what's going on

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with your voice?

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Yeah.

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I just had some surgery on my throat, so I apologize for sounding kind of hoarse.

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But on the other hand, we just want to talk and get this message out there.

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If we wait until the time is right, you never know when that time will be.

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Whereas, I hope people will appreciate what I have to say, even if it comes in a kind

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of a spooky, gravelly voice.

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Well I'm sure they will.

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And that was kind of profound.

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We don't want to wait until the time's right, because you and I have been going back and

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forth trying to make this thing happen for a while.

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So I'm so happy that we finally have you today, and your voice is just fine.

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Anyway, would you mind telling us a little bit about your medical background so people

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understand a little bit about the scientific study that you have?

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Absolutely.

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You know, near-death research is kind of my hobby as a former associate professor of pediatrics

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at the University of Washington for about 20 years.

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I taught medical students in residence at Seattle Children's Hospital for 25 years.

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The studies that I did primarily were in the Department of Neurology, having to do with

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neuro-oncology, anti-cancer drugs, things such as that.

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I was a critical care physician and also in private practice pediatrics for many, many

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years.

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So, you know, I don't really comment this naturally.

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This is something that I sort of stumbled upon, and I feel a responsibility, frankly,

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to share this information.

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Okay, where did you go to med school?

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I went to Johns Hopkins in Baltimore, Maryland, and trained at the University of California

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at San Francisco, and then did more advanced training at Seattle Children's Hospital, University

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of Washington.

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I completed a residency in pediatrics and a fellowship in neuro-oncology, which is,

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you know, brain cancer, basically.

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Okay.

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With that kind of resume, I don't think anybody can dispute that you're a real-life doctor.

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What got you interested in your death experiences in the first place?

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So I worked primarily in critical care medicine for many years, and I worked for an outfit

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called Airlift Northwest, and we basically flew throughout the Northwest to small community

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hospitals, picked up critically ill children, resuscitated them, and brought them back to

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Seattle Children's Hospital.

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Well, my mom always loves to say she's had a near-death experience.

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She loves to say there's no coincidences, but just by coincidence, I just happened to pick

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up a young girl named Crystal Merzlach, and she had nearly drowned in a community swimming

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pool in Boca de la Lido.

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She was under water for 20 minutes, documented.

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And our teen went into resuscitator.

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She was so close to death that I told her parents that they should go in and, you know,

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basically say goodbye to her.

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They had a prayer circle at her bedside, and I said that they needed to prepare themselves

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that she could go at any time.

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Let me just mention to our listeners that Crystal was on our show a couple of weeks

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ago.

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So if they want to hear this story from her side, which I think is fascinating to put

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the two together, go back to episode number 232, and you can now hear both sides of this

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story.

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Okay, doctor, keep going.

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So, well, you know, against all odds, we were in fact able to resuscitate her.

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Got her heart beat back, got her breathing, and she was transferred down to Primary Children's

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Hospital in Utah and then made a complete recovery three days later.

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And it's interesting, the nurses at her bedside said that the first thing that she said when

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she woke up was, where is Andy and Mark, who are apparently her playmates in heaven?

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Wow.

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So how did you hear about this, that she had gotten better and had this experience?

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Well, I just happened to be working at a community clinic in Pocatello, Idaho.

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It was part of my training.

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At the ivory tower, we want young residents to be exposed to what it's like to work in

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the community.

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So another coincidence.

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I just happened to be in the very office that she came in for follow-up after she was discharged.

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And I looked at her and I said, well, Crystal, I bet you don't remember me, but I sure remember

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you.

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I thought I would never see you, you know, walking and talking like this.

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And she looks at her mother and she says, huh, that's the man that put a tube in my nose.

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I don't like him.

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I didn't like it.

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Okay.

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That's crazy.

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How does she know that?

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That's what I thought.

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I thought that's crazy.

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How could she possibly know that?

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And for people who think that perhaps somehow, you know, maybe she was conscious during her

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resuscitation, we routinely tape the patient's eyes shut because we don't want stuff to fall

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in their eyes while we're resuscitating them, et cetera.

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So she's not seeing in any way.

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And yet she was able to describe her entire resuscitation to me blow by blow.

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Now some people talk about lifting up out of their body and being in that room.

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She mentioned that she was in heaven or some kind of a heavenly place and could just look

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to the side and see what was going on down there with her body.

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That's what she says.

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But all I know is that she accurately described everything that we did.

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She said, then I saw you put me in a big donut, which was her description of a cat scanner.

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I had to call my superiors at Children's Hospital because it's kind of a complex case.

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I didn't know exactly how to handle it.

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She was able to repeat my conversations with them word for word.

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But clearly, I mean, this isn't what I learned in medical school.

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Clearly she was conscious and alert and awake at a time that I know that not only was she

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in coma, but it was in depth of coma that few patients recover from.

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We score comas.

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She had a Glasgow coma score of three.

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It's very unusual for a patient to survive after that profound coma.

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And certainly they're not hearing and seeing and processing information.

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You know, Eric, there's a lot of the reason as a medical professional, I feel obligated

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to discuss these experiences because I'm always hearing people say, well, isn't this

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just some sort of a dream?

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Or isn't this some sort of neurochemicals at the point of death or some sort of hallucinogenic

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hallucination at the point of death, et cetera?

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That does not do justice to what's going on.

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These patients are clinically dead.

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She had no brain activity.

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She is not having hallucination.

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She is not dreaming.

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She, by at least conventional medical training or knowledge, she shouldn't be having any

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experience, none whatsoever.

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Instead, she's having this incredibly complex emotional experience.

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She's accurately describing everything that's happening to her.

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And then she says she's in heaven and talking with the heavenly father and being given a

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choice to return to earth or not.

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And this is not consistent with modern neuropsychiatry.

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Are you familiar with the study that just came out?

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I'm not sure from where that tried to explain these, the way that you just did, whereas

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there's some kind of chemical reaction that happens when your heart stops.

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Are you familiar with that?

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Yes.

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If nonsense.

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These things are done.

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They're actually real life critical care physicians.

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These are patients that I personally resuscitated by and large.

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After Crystal's experience, I returned to Seattle Children's Hospital.

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I was working with the head of the Department of Neurology, the head of the Department of

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the Intensive Care Unit.

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And we basically said this does not fit what we're taught in the medical textbooks.

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And we needed to investigate further.

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So we systematically studied every single survivor of cardiac arrest at Seattle Children's

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Hospital over a 15 year period.

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And I'm talking about patients that I personally put a needle in their heart to restart their

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heart.

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So I mean, there is not, these are not neurochemical bizarre reactions at the point of death.

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These are brains that are not functioning.

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And yet the only way to explain this is to flip what we thought medical science for years

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has thought that the brain creates consciousness.

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The only way to understand the near death experience is to see consciousness as using

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the brain to create this reality.

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Because then now it makes sense when the brain dies, then of course, consciousness becomes

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expanded.

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You have a greater sense of consciousness and awareness.

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So once the brain is out of the way, then of course, you can hear and see things that

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that are limited by our five senses.

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And remember, we can only see what we can perceive with our senses.

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Once the brain is dead, then the consciousness is freed to experience a much greater array

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of reality.

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Well, what kids call the real, real.

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It was real.

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It was real.

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Dr. Morse, it was realer than real.

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And that only makes sense if not some kind of chemical reaction of the brain, but the

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death of the brain, getting the brain out of the way.

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And that is what's happening in these patients.

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The difficult thing that I have experienced with adults that I've interviewed is they've

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had an amazing experience like what you just described with these children.

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But then they're trying to explain it to me in words that aren't capable of describing

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it.

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We just don't have good enough adjectives yet.

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How did you get the children to describe what they experienced?

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Mostly by drawing pictures.

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Some draw pictures that speak much deeper than any kind of words.

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And furthermore, children have very, they're not trying to translate this into human terminology.

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Their words express the sincere awe and wonder of it.

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As one young man, he was under water for 45 minutes in freezing cold water.

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And there's old adage in critical care medicine, until you're warm and dead, you're not dead.

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So he was successfully resuscitated.

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And he says to me, well, I was in a huge noodle.

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And then he stops and he goes, no, no, it couldn't have been a noodle because noodles

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don't have rainbows in them.

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And so he said it must have been a tunnel.

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So that's you're actually seeing him trying to put this into human terms.

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My favorite one is a young girl.

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She says to me, first, again, this is the one that I had to put a needle in her heart

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to resuscitate her.

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So that's near death.

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I mean, that's that's death.

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Yeah, that's there by any criteria.

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That's not some sort of, you know, there's no specialized neurochemicals going on in

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the brain in that sort of situation.

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Nothing's happening in her brain.

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So she described, she said, yeah, I saw you getting that crash guard thing.

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And I heard all the nurses yelling.

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And she says to me, and then I saw my grandmother.

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And I was just so shocked to see her.

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And then she stops and she says, and then I was back.

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And I said, well, what do you mean by that?

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And she clenches her fists and she says, that's what I'm trying to figure out.

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But I've interviewed enough adults to understand that.

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Well, I don't know if it's unfortunate or not, but adults want to fill that gap.

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It's much harder for an adult to simply say, that's what I'm trying to figure out.

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You know, as adults, we just have a natural instinct to want to fill in the blanks.

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And I mean, you know, going outside the field of near death experiences, by and large, when

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you ask adults, even simple questions like, what was your 14th birthday party like?

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They will tell you in great detail what their 14th birthday party was like.

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And then you can ask their mother.

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The mother says, he didn't have a birthday party when it was 14.

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It's just as adults, we have that urge to fill in the blanks.

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And we fill in the blanks with what we know.

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So you know, obviously then, people are Christians, described Christian religious figures.

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I did a near study of near death experiences in Japan.

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We heard all Japanese religious figures.

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I did a study with some African psychiatrists.

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And we heard all sorts of African imagery.

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They don't travel in tunnels in Africa.

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They get into gourds and they come out of gourds.

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And apparently that has some sort of meaning, you know, which frankly, I don't understand.

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We just have to understand that this reality, Eric, is the invented reality.

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We create a mental model of this reality.

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Our eyes aren't video cameras.

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Our ears aren't microphones.

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Instead, we sample the sensory information that is surrounding us.

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And we take that information in our brain and creates a mental model, which is what

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you and I are experiencing right now.

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Well, our mental models are pretty similar because we have similar brains.

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So think about what happens when you have an experience that's completely outside your

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mental model, that you have absolutely no frame of reference whatsoever.

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So what do I mean by that?

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Well, even the color red, Eric, is a part of a mental model.

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And think about it.

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When you're two and three year old, your parents are constantly telling you, that's red.

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That's red.

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So we have this mutual understanding of what is red.

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But we don't have a mutual understanding of what the light that comes to us when we die

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is.

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We don't have a mutual understanding of what this, I'm going to use the word the kids use,

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is God.

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You know, we don't have a mutual understanding of that.

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And so as a result, then it's very, very difficult, particularly for adults to describe

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these experiences.

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And that's why I love working with kids because they just candidly say, I saw a light and

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it had a lot of good things in it.

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And kids are so ridiculously honest, just blunt, honest.

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They are not going to make something up to make you feel happy.

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But I think it was a great blessing for these children to have a doctor who believed what

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they were saying.

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I've interviewed so many people that said, I had my near death experience 30 years ago.

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I told my doctor and I told my teacher or somebody and they didn't believe me.

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And they said, just keep it quiet because you sound crazy.

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And that must be very difficult emotionally then to process what's happened and to deal

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with it and it's usually 20 years later, they finally feel like they can talk about it.

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But since you are helping children and saying, yes, that's a real thing, I imagine that really

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helped their mental health as well as everything else.

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Eric, what you're saying is heartbreaking because remember what our study was.

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Our study was not, we didn't permit volunteers.

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You know, people didn't come to us with their experiences.

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Instead, we identified survivors of cardiac arrest and then we got their permission, the

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parents permission, to interview the children.

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And we heard that story again and again.

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And it just is heartbreaking and you're absolutely right.

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We had clinical psychologists who worked with us and they worked with those families and

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to try to bring validation to those children and tell those children that they weren't

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crazy because, for example, one child had in fact, she was given the assignment as, you

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know, a typical school assignment, write about the most memorable thing that you can remember.

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And she wrote about her near death experience and the teacher called up her parents and said,

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you know, she's just making stuff up.

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She's like fantasizing and I can't have that in my class.

283
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You know, that wasn't a class assignment.

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I had another little girl, this kind of a funny twist on it.

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She told me she hadn't told anybody her experience, not even her parents.

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Because remember, we simply interviewed everybody.

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You know, we didn't know whether they had an experience or not.

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And so I said to her, well, how come you didn't tell anybody?

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And she goes, I didn't think you were supposed to be able to talk to God.

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Wow.

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So even at her age.

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Now, I've got to tell you something else about our study.

293
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Sorry, there's a little out of order, but that's okay.

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I would like to hear a lot about your study.

295
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So I don't mind you backtracking.

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I'd like to know how many kids were in it, how many remembered something from their experience,

297
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how many didn't.

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I know I've read recently that in adults who have quote died or in other words, their

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heart stopped, they came back a little under 20% remember something that happened.

300
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Is that right?

301
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,920
And is that what your study showed to?

302
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:54,920
That's right.

303
00:22:54,920 --> 00:23:02,240
We're talking about bin von Lommel study and we did our study at Seattle Children's Hospital

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and then I collaborated with bin von Lommel.

305
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And so he did a very similar study in adults and we wanted to make sure that we were comparing

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you know, apples and apples.

307
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We wanted to both do very similar studies.

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We don't know why adults report, you know, 12, 20% of them have these kinds of experiences.

309
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That was not our experience.

310
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We interviewed 27 children, 23 of them reported some sort of near death experience.

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And we defined a near death experience as meaning that they were conscious and alert

312
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and awake at a time where we knew that they were clinically dead.

313
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So most of the kids that we interviewed had this experience.

314
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Now you talk about this issue of, you know, that oftentimes children aren't believed and

315
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,000
many times adults aren't believed.

316
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But our study addressed an issue that really needs to be emphasized because what breaks

317
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my heart is many people that have these experiences don't believe them themselves.

318
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And even in the year 2022, after all the research that's been done, I hear people tell me experiences

319
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:41,400
that you could start a religion over and yet then they say, oh, but that was just a lack

320
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,400
of oxygen to my brain.

321
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:48,240
Oh, that was just the chemicals that they gave me when I was dying.

322
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That was just some sort of crazy hallucination.

323
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:59,160
Our study and then also PINVon-Lummel study, we looked at that specific issue.

324
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,800
Remember I told you that we interviewed survivors of cardiac arrest.

325
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We carefully compared them to other children who were treated with the same chemicals,

326
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:20,680
the same lack of oxygen to the brain, were in the same scary intensive care unit, also

327
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,560
had the feeling that they were going to die.

328
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,040
So that's one theory.

329
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,520
You know, these are sort of fear death experiences.

330
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:34,760
You know, the brain's way of, I don't know, you know, maybe, you know, making it so death

331
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,040
doesn't seem so bad or something.

332
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,480
And none of our control patients had this experience.

333
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:43,480
Absolutely not.

334
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We wanted to really make sure this was correct.

335
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:54,080
So we interviewed hundreds of control patients, patients who were exactly like our children

336
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:59,480
who survived cardiac arrest except they weren't at the point of death.

337
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,280
You know, you've got to get the word out, Eric.

338
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,400
The research has been done.

339
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,040
You know, this research has been done.

340
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:13,760
PINVon-Lummel study was of eight different hospitals in Holland.

341
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:19,440
He studied hundreds of adults and found the exact same thing.

342
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These experiences are the dying experience.

343
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,600
These studies are published in the most prestigious medical journals.

344
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PINVon-Lummel study is published in the Lancet, which is arguably the most prestigious medical

345
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:36,880
journal.

346
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:43,600
We published our studies in the American Medical Association's medical journals.

347
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,120
So has it made a difference?

348
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:48,840
Do most doctors now believe this or are most still skeptical?

349
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,480
No, most doctors believe this.

350
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,920
I don't think the problem is doctors.

351
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,560
I think it's the problem is that this has not trickled down into the general public

352
00:26:58,560 --> 00:26:59,560
yet.

353
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:05,840
I think it's just, well, I'll just give you a hint.

354
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:12,360
So I'm always hearing from people, they'll say, will scientists say that these experiences

355
00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:14,120
aren't real?

356
00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:19,560
So I say, okay, which scientist was that?

357
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Even if it was a scientist, usually it isn't.

358
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But if it was a scientist, it was a scientist who's outside the field.

359
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,120
It was just not aware of this type of research.

360
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:39,120
But I don't know of any, certainly no practicing physicians, nobody who's in the hospital setting

361
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:41,200
dealing with dying patients.

362
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:46,600
We all understand that this experience is in fact the dying experience.

363
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,200
The general public, I think, is having a harder time.

364
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,800
And that's interesting because it's true.

365
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:58,080
40 years ago, doctors used to tell patients they were crazy.

366
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:03,680
And I would agree that 40 years ago, doctors by and large thought that these experiences

367
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,000
were hallucinations.

368
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:11,160
But I just don't think that's true anymore.

369
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:16,400
I think it's that the resistance will not really resist.

370
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,040
It's our society.

371
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,320
Our society is not nurturing spirituality.

372
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:28,040
That we don't see spirituality as something that's real is, I think, the long and short

373
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,040
of it.

374
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,040
Yeah, I have questions about that.

375
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:38,360
One of them is, and you may have to speculate on this, is it because people think, okay,

376
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:44,040
if these are real, then there must be a God?

377
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:49,240
I mean, is that the leap that some people are making why they don't want to accept it?

378
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:54,360
All right, Eric, what's the name of our show again?

379
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,240
Roundtrip Death.

380
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:57,560
Roundtrip Death.

381
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:58,760
Okay.

382
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,520
People that have died and come back to tell us about it.

383
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:04,880
Yeah.

384
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:13,560
And at least in the medical literature, that's been there for well over 100 years.

385
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:21,480
And I don't know of any scientific or medical literature that disputes that this is in fact

386
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,760
the dying experience.

387
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:33,280
So let's see, Eric, when people die, they by and large have an expanded sense of consciousness

388
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,320
and awareness.

389
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,800
They think that they're outside their body.

390
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:45,080
They think that they're merging with some sort of spiritual light.

391
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:51,120
Children who I've interviewed now, dozens and dozens of children.

392
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:56,200
And I just, I love children because they're not trying to, you know, the word God can

393
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,560
be a very divisive word for adults.

394
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,080
You know, some people, oh God, I've given lectures and people come up to me and they

395
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,800
say, I don't believe in God.

396
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,280
I believe in a higher power.

397
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:17,400
And it's just great to talk to children because they say, God told me that he saved me when

398
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:18,400
that came up.

399
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:24,200
I was telling the nurses that our team had saved her and she corrected us and she said,

400
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:25,680
no, God saved me.

401
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,680
Oh, there's a humbling experience for a doctor.

402
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,640
That was great.

403
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:42,640
Anyway, so at the point of death, your consciousness has expanded and you think you see God.

404
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:50,880
Well, Occam's razor, which is, you know, the principle that the simplest solution is probably

405
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,920
the right solution.

406
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,200
Occam's razor would be, maybe there's a God.

407
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:04,920
I mean, it's kind of hard to reach any other conclusion.

408
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,920
I'll tell you this much.

409
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,600
I certainly agree that these are not after death experiences.

410
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:19,200
And I have many thoughtful conversations with other neuroscientists, et cetera, who do point

411
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:24,600
out that, you know, this isn't an after death experience.

412
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:33,920
These people are clinically dead, sure, but, you know, the death is not as cut and dry as,

413
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:34,920
you know, as people think.

414
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:40,440
You know, we have patients that have no vital signs for 20 minutes and they come back to

415
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:46,600
life and we have other patients that you think they're going to get up and leave the hospital

416
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,560
and they abruptly, you know, pass over.

417
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:57,760
But when these guys try to explain or women try to explain why we would see God when we

418
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,280
die, they twist themselves into knots.

419
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:07,680
It's almost impossible to explain other than there actually is a God.

420
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,640
I mean, it's just, why would we evolve such a system?

421
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:19,640
What possible evolutionary, you know, why would human beings evolve seeing a God when

422
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:20,640
they die?

423
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,880
It doesn't help you to live any longer.

424
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,000
Doesn't make your life any better.

425
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,640
Has no survival advantage.

426
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,280
You get all twisted up and that's why you have all these ridiculous, oh, well, it must

427
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:40,280
be this neurochemical is being released to death and this and the other.

428
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:47,920
The near death experience is an amazingly complex experience that involves emotions,

429
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:57,880
sensation, intellect, rational, you know, every part of, you know, of your intelligence.

430
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:03,280
That's not some sort of dysfunctional hallucination when you die.

431
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,880
That's an incredible experience of another reality.

432
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:12,880
There's no other way to scientifically explain it.

433
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,920
And remember, I told you about the color red, you know, colors.

434
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:18,920
Yes.

435
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:19,920
Okay.

436
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:28,800
So David Aigleman, who is I don't know, I think he's the premier neuroscientist explaining

437
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:40,280
the brain and he points out that we can't imagine a color that we can't actually perceive.

438
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:48,360
So because like I said, we create colors in our brain, brain colors do not exist in nature.

439
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:55,240
And yet those who have the near death experience suddenly see colors that they have never seen

440
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:56,240
before.

441
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:03,160
And if that, that to me is one of the most powerful pieces of evidence that they are

442
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:10,000
seeing something real because it's just, if the brain just doesn't work that way, we

443
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:16,200
can make up a color unless we have some sort of sensory input that goes along with it.

444
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,880
So when these children say to me, I saw colors that I've never seen before.

445
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,280
I believe them.

446
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:28,880
They're seeing something that does not exist in this very limited reality.

447
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,520
We had an artist on this show a little while back.

448
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,040
He's a painter.

449
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,160
He had a near death experience.

450
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,040
Really interesting, saw a lot of nature and that kind of thing.

451
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:46,240
And I asked him if he had tried to paint it because he can't describe the colors well

452
00:34:46,240 --> 00:34:47,240
enough.

453
00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:53,520
And he said, you know, I tried to paint it, but the colors were not in my palette.

454
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,000
Exactly.

455
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:05,680
But this might sound like a minor point, it is not.

456
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:11,680
To me, that's the most compelling piece of evidence that near death experiences are real

457
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:19,800
is that they see colors that do not exist in this reality because we simply don't.

458
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:27,760
So that, I guess that throws out the hallucination hypothesis, what I'm saying, when you hallucinate,

459
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,680
you see colors of this reality.

460
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:39,440
When you are seeing something that is truly unique, it's just, remember, we only see a

461
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:45,440
tiny visible spectrum of light.

462
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:51,120
So suddenly, when our brains out of the way, when our eyes are out of the way, all of a

463
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:56,920
sudden we can see the whole range of colors that there are.

464
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,320
So they're seeing something real.

465
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:03,720
Well, if they're seeing something real, they're probably seeing a real God too.

466
00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:07,480
I'll tell you what I did to try to answer this question.

467
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,400
First, I got to tell you why I was inspired to do it.

468
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,280
God, I love working with kids.

469
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:23,640
So this kid, he tells me about his near death experience, and then he goes, but was it real,

470
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:24,640
Dr. Morse?

471
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,520
Because it was real.

472
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,680
You got to tell all the old people.

473
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:36,200
So I really took that seriously, and I tried to think to myself, how can we know if this

474
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,080
is real?

475
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:44,560
Well, they see God, but I don't know how we can prove if God is real or not.

476
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,960
I don't even know if we can define God.

477
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,560
But this is something that they do say.

478
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,480
They say they enter in a world of all knowledge.

479
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,520
They say that suddenly they know everything.

480
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:05,560
They understand all of reality.

481
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,720
So that's something that we can test.

482
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:09,160
Is that true?

483
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:19,200
Is there truly a informational reality that all information exists in, that we can access?

484
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,320
And we can't.

485
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,280
And we know that because of the science of control-removing.

486
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:32,800
And control-removing is the art of entering into that informational universe and coming

487
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:38,040
back with very specific and validatable pieces of information.

488
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,720
Now, that sounds kind of real.

489
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:50,680
I mean, this whole journey for me has been a long way from Johns Hopkins.

490
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:58,160
First learning that dead, dying brains actually have an expanded sense of consciousness.

491
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:03,800
And then learning, or at least speculating, that we can access information beyond our

492
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,080
ordinary senses.

493
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:14,840
So that was something that I just, you know, I couldn't take other people's word for it.

494
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,520
And so I went to military remote viewers.

495
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,280
You know, our government has a huge program of control-removing.

496
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,200
And I learned how to do it.

497
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,480
And it's absolutely true.

498
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:34,640
You can, in fact, enter into this informational reality and come back with real verifiable

499
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:42,480
information in the United States government, where Saddam Hussein was discovered in part

500
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,160
by military remote viewers.

501
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,760
Can you explain a little bit more what that is?

502
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,200
What does that mean?

503
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:53,840
Remote viewing is the ability to get information from beyond your ordinary senses.

504
00:38:53,840 --> 00:39:03,920
So for example, well, you know, Saddam Hussein is halfway across the world.

505
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,520
They were trying to find him on a farm.

506
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,720
And they were unable to find him.

507
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:19,320
Military remote viewers, they have a very specific protocol that they use that was developed

508
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:24,120
by scientists at the Stanford Research Institute.

509
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:30,480
And they worked their protocol, and they determined that Saddam Hussein was in a dark and closed

510
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,200
place that was probably underground.

511
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:40,560
And sure enough, that led to actionable intelligence, and they found Saddam Hussein.

512
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:47,560
So they've recovered down their craft.

513
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:56,120
They can, Soviet military secrets have been looked at by remote viewers.

514
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:02,840
And basically they're sitting in a room in Fort Meade, Maryland, and accessing information

515
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,800
and that you, you know, doesn't come through your ordinary senses.

516
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:16,720
Well, the only way that could really be true is if that information exists in some sort

517
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:23,400
of, you know, informational reality, which is what people that have near death experiences.

518
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,760
That's what they say.

519
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:29,600
They say they enter into a world in which they know everything.

520
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,960
And this is not actually all that farfetched.

521
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:40,800
Information theory is in fact the reigning scientific theory of how the universe works.

522
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:49,520
And information theory essentially says that reality consists first and foremost foremost

523
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,200
of information.

524
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:56,920
And then the material world is based on that information.

525
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:09,800
So this idea that we're basically information, not material beings, is a, that it's a respectable

526
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,560
scientific theory.

527
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:19,320
It has practical applications and control of viewing, which our government spend millions

528
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,520
of dollars and people have near death experiences.

529
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:24,520
That's what they describe.

530
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,680
I'm sure you've heard that from adults as well.

531
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:28,680
Sure.

532
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:34,840
So at least that tiny piece of the near death experience is definitely real.

533
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:35,840
Yeah.

534
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:41,280
For our listeners who maybe love all the hardcore science kind of stuff, are there any other

535
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,360
studies on near death experiences that you would recommend?

536
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:46,360
Okay.

537
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:47,360
There is.

538
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:48,840
Let's narrow it down.

539
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,560
Where would someone start if they wanted to see some?

540
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,440
Here's the problem with near death research.

541
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,800
Everybody has a little piece of the puzzle.

542
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,240
And I'm just going to have to say that you got to go to my website.

543
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:08,480
That's what I put my website for.

544
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:15,640
It's melvinmoresmd.com because I tried to put all these little pieces together.

545
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,880
I'm laughing just because this is so astonishing.

546
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:25,800
The military did their own study of near death experiences.

547
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:31,840
And they experimentally proved the near death experiences are real.

548
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:41,560
But you've never heard of that, Eric, because it was published in an aeronautics scientific

549
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:49,400
journal, which most people, particularly consciousness researchers and spiritual seekers, don't actually

550
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,640
read the aeronautics literature.

551
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,240
But this study came out of the National Warfare Institute.

552
00:42:57,240 --> 00:43:03,960
They took fighter pilots and they whirled them in centrifuges at tremendous speeds.

553
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:11,440
And their goal was to see what kind of G forces the pilots could endure.

554
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:17,560
Because obviously they don't want a plane to be able to fly faster than a pilot can

555
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:24,760
handle, you know, with blackout and crash their plane and lose, you know, millions of

556
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:29,280
dollars in the aircraft, which I'm sure was their main concern.

557
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,720
Judge, I don't want to be in that study either.

558
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:39,240
Well, I know the guys that did that study and that does seem to be their main concern.

559
00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:49,760
But anyway, so they whirled in these centrifuges and the pilots lose consciousness.

560
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,520
They go into coma.

561
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,920
They frequently have seizures.

562
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:58,240
They lose their, you know, bowel tone.

563
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:05,440
And then right at the point of death, when the blood flow has theoretically stopped

564
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,320
in their brain.

565
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:15,640
These fighter pilots regain consciousness and they frequently have out of body experiences.

566
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:23,040
They have the same kind of amazing spiritual experience.

567
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,160
And it's transformative.

568
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:33,440
I did a study of the transformations of, you know, people that have near death experiences

569
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:34,440
are quite transformed.

570
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:39,040
I wrote a book about that called transform by the light.

571
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:45,480
These military pilots, after they have these types of experiences, they immediately quit

572
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:50,560
the military and become family therapists and stuff like that.

573
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:51,560
Okay.

574
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:56,280
I thought you were going to say they become priests or something.

575
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:57,720
The wealth that I don't know.

576
00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:03,680
I only know one of my good friends was actually one of the military fighter pilots who went

577
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:13,160
through this and he spent most of his time doing war games for the national warfare Institute.

578
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:18,200
After he had his centrifuge experience, he immediately quit the military.

579
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:26,800
He has a nonprofit in which he supports disabled veterans and became a family therapist.

580
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:34,680
And according to the head researcher, Jim Winery is another guy I know pretty well.

581
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:39,920
He told me the same kind of thing happens that these experiences are transformative.

582
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,880
So that the science is there.

583
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,720
They're just, you can't get away from it.

584
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:53,640
If I read on Facebook one more time that science debunks near death experiences, I'm just going

585
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:54,640
to barf.

586
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,520
The science is there.

587
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,200
You know, you can believe everything on Facebook.

588
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,840
For those that don't know me, sarcasm comes naturally.

589
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,240
Let's talk about something you just mentioned for a second.

590
00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:10,120
You mentioned transformative, how it changes people.

591
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,280
Eric, I'm going to interrupt you.

592
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:13,920
I'm sorry to do this to you.

593
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:14,920
It's okay.

594
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:15,920
Go right ahead.

595
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:22,840
It's just I've done this for 35 years and I don't really have a horse in the race because

596
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,840
my income is primarily from being a physician.

597
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:31,320
All of the money I made from my books, I plowed back into my research.

598
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:37,360
I, you know, I lectured and still do lecture quite a bit.

599
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:41,480
You know, again, I always donate my lecture fees back to the institution.

600
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:47,320
I consider this to be sacred information that people need to know about.

601
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:52,520
And I feel honored that these are patients that I buy in large, resuscitated or, you

602
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,080
know, my team did.

603
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,400
So we don't have to have all that, you know, were they really near death and all that kind

604
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,440
of stuff.

605
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,600
And I meet skeptics all the time.

606
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,440
People who say, you know, this is, this is bunk.

607
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,440
This isn't true.

608
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:16,200
And by and large, I find that almost everybody I meet has had some sort of profound spiritual

609
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:22,480
experience and they dismiss it and they trivialize it.

610
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:29,040
And they don't think it's scientific and they don't, they don't feel validated.

611
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,120
And that's got to stop.

612
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,680
Science is validating your spiritual experiences.

613
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:41,400
If the near death experience is real and it is, then your premonition of death is real.

614
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,440
Your after death experience is real.

615
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:51,880
The experience you had that your Christmas cactus had always bloomed in late November

616
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:58,200
and now it's starting to bloom on the anniversary of your son's passing.

617
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,000
That's real.

618
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:05,480
And you know, maybe science can't prove that, but the science of the near death experience

619
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:12,520
is so solid, is so profound, is so unshakable.

620
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:20,080
That really, to me, it really validates the whole range of spiritual experiences.

621
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:25,920
And even the most skeptical people, by and large, they've often had spiritual experiences

622
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:31,560
and then they look around, there's a lot of con artists and, you know, and they don't

623
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,840
get any validation.

624
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:39,760
And you know, then there are people that, you know, just prey on, you know, the con artists

625
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:47,160
that are just, you know, trying to, you know, I don't know what their motives are, but you

626
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:52,000
got to look past all that and start to trust your instincts because your spiritual experiences

627
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,680
are real if these children's experiences are real.

628
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:02,320
I know people on your show are having many of them wonder, was that experience that I

629
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,360
have real?

630
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:12,400
And it's further complicated, particularly as you mentioned in adults, because many of

631
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:19,600
the aspects of them are parts of their own personal lives that are woven into the experience.

632
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:25,680
And so it's hard to sort out, you know, what is sort of an invention of their mind, but

633
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:33,480
not an invention of their mind, just making something up, an invention of their mind struggling

634
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,960
to understand the incomprehensible.

635
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:43,920
And it is hard for adults to sort all that out, but they have to start with the knowledge

636
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,480
that what happened to them was real.

637
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:54,760
And once they start with that bedrock certainty, then they can tease out the rest and go, oh,

638
00:49:54,760 --> 00:50:01,440
yeah, you know, that part of it, that, you know, that's from my own religious upbringing.

639
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:08,320
And that part of it was my own preconception in what I expected the heaven to be like.

640
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:09,320
Oh, yes.

641
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:16,480
And look, that part there, that was the real deal that came from heaven to me.

642
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,840
But they're not going to be able to sort that out if they're constantly second guessing

643
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,360
themselves.

644
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:27,400
And that's a normal thing as adults, because, you know, especially if somebody tells you

645
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:32,160
you're crazy for trying to explain it, and we may believe them.

646
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,720
And so then we have to say, okay, what really happened?

647
00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:36,720
Was I dreaming?

648
00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:38,960
Was I, was it the pain meds?

649
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:39,960
What was it?

650
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:40,960
Right?

651
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:41,960
Right.

652
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,760
So let's, yeah, let's validate what people really experienced.

653
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:47,760
Yeah.

654
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,480
What does it mean to be crazy?

655
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:57,760
Crazy is simply the dysfunction of your brain.

656
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:07,400
It's, you know, it's when you're not oriented to person place, you're misperceiving things,

657
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:13,840
you're taking ordinary experiences and twisting them in some way because of your own personal

658
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:24,000
fears, or your own psychology, or your own biochemistry, you know, I mean, psychiatric

659
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:30,960
and mental health disorders are very complex, but they all involve dysfunction.

660
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:40,280
The near death experience and spiritual experiences in general involve the proper function of easily

661
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,920
a third of your brain.

662
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:50,200
So by definition, you're not crazy for having them because at least a third of our brain

663
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,440
is dedicated to having spiritual experiences.

664
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:54,440
Yeah.

665
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,080
I'm going to just brag about all the books I read, I guess.

666
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,000
I wrote a book called Where God Lives.

667
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:08,800
I wrote that in 2004, in which we said that we have an area in our brain in the right

668
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:15,800
temporal lobe, which is right above your ear, we call it the God spot, and that connects

669
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,680
your brain to the universe.

670
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,920
You know, we're talking earlier about the informational universe.

671
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:22,480
All right.

672
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:31,240
Since that time, no neuroscientist has challenged what we wrote, and I published it in the medical

673
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:33,360
literature as well.

674
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:40,520
The only scientists that have challenged it have said, wait a minute, Morris was all wrong.

675
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:42,360
It's not a God spot.

676
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,040
It's a God brain.

677
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:50,040
Mario Beauregard wrote a book called The Spiritual Brain, in which he showed a third

678
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:55,720
of the brain is dedicated to having spiritual experiences.

679
00:52:55,720 --> 00:53:01,960
And a guy named Nelson wrote an excellent book called The Spiritual Doorway to the Brain.

680
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,080
Now Nelson doesn't happen to believe in God.

681
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:12,120
Well, that's, you know, I mean, that's an issue of faith, but his book clearly documents

682
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:16,880
that we are hardwired to have spiritual experiences.

683
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:24,280
So for some reason, some people say, oh, well, you're saying this is just in our brain, as

684
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:32,240
if that somehow discounts the experience, this experience you and I are having right

685
00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:36,000
now, Eric, it's just in our brain.

686
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:42,120
I can even tell you the areas of your brain which are dedicated to having this experience.

687
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,080
It feels awfully real to me.

688
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:45,080
Yeah.

689
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:49,800
We have a huge visual cortex that allows us to see things.

690
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:51,800
Nobody doubts those are real.

691
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:57,320
We've got a big auditory cortex that allows us to hear things.

692
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:05,400
We have a frontal lobe that allows us to process all sorts of higher mental processing.

693
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,080
Nobody doubts that real.

694
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,360
And we've got a big area of our brain which allows us to communicate with God.

695
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:18,760
Who's ever listening to this, please just accept the word God the way kids use it.

696
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:26,440
You know, when I understand that unfortunately God, for many people, has now gotten all twisted

697
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,560
up with the dogma of various religions, et cetera.

698
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:31,560
That's unfortunate.

699
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,160
I'm not using that in God in that sense.

700
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:39,520
You know, I'm not saying one person's God is the right God, another one's the wrong

701
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:40,520
God.

702
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:46,800
I'm just saying that just the way kids tell me that they saw God when they died, we have

703
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:51,760
an area of our brain which allows us to perceive whatever this God is.

704
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:58,440
And it is unfortunate that a lot of people seem to twist up something as simple and beautiful

705
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:03,280
as God with a lot of their own preconceptions of dogmas.

706
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:04,440
Okay.

707
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,840
I did ask you a question a while ago and that's okay.

708
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:09,600
Before we get to that.

709
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,160
I mean, when you ask me, is there a God?

710
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:19,520
I'm not even a religious person, I was raised in an agnostic Jewish household, but when we

711
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,120
die we see God.

712
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,480
So and that's a scientific fact.

713
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:26,680
Okay.

714
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,920
So I don't know.

715
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:36,040
I mean, but I understand that unfortunately, because I've had enough discussions with adults

716
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:41,080
to know that once you start talking about God, they're all rolling around the floor,

717
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:46,720
gouging each other's eyes out and well, then my God says, isn't my God sad in this, that

718
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:47,720
and the other?

719
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:51,320
Well, that doesn't seem to be the God we see when we die.

720
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:57,520
The God we see when we die is a light that has a lot of love in it.

721
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:01,840
It has a lot of good things in it and it teaches us something.

722
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:08,720
It's teaching us that we're here to learn lessons of love and that's it in a nutshell.

723
00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:10,480
And that's the word I hear the most.

724
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:11,480
Love.

725
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:16,520
Love, indescribable, pure love.

726
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,560
So maybe we need to redefine God.

727
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:20,560
God is love.

728
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:27,240
You know, maybe near-death experiencers have something to teach us about what God is.

729
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:28,560
Absolutely.

730
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,400
How do we help those that have had near-death experiences?

731
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,920
We've talked a little bit about how some of the things that we do kind of hurt them in

732
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:41,640
a way and how we need to support them, but if you were, say, a parent of a child that

733
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:46,240
had had one of these experiences, what can you do to help them?

734
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:47,240
Listen.

735
00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:54,160
I think that listening non-judgmentally is crucial.

736
00:56:54,160 --> 00:57:00,840
I don't think there's, you know, it's as simple and as difficult as that.

737
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,340
It's difficult.

738
00:57:02,340 --> 00:57:10,160
It's difficult to listen non-judgmentally and it's difficult to listen without our own preconceptions.

739
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,280
I'll tell you a funny story.

740
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:21,760
One of my patients had a near-death experience and she was then left with the perception

741
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:27,440
that her grandmother was always with her, her grandmother who'd passed.

742
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:32,600
Her grandmother was helping her with her homework.

743
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:33,600
Okay.

744
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:34,600
Why not?

745
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:35,600
Yeah.

746
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:41,920
I mean, these experiences are very real and very pragmatic.

747
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:50,080
Another experience a young man told me that his father would pass, still took him fishing.

748
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:54,320
You know, it was sort of there spiritually where the money went fishing.

749
00:57:54,320 --> 00:58:00,720
So finally she says to her grandmother's pass, she says, so what is heaven like?

750
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:05,200
And the grandmother tells her, you know, it's really pretty with flowers, you know, the

751
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:09,120
kind of thing that you would tell a child that heaven is like.

752
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:16,480
So she then told her mother, yes, well, this conflicted with their church's belief of

753
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:20,840
what heaven was like.

754
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:29,520
This church was a fundamentalist Christian church and had a very different idea of heaven.

755
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:37,080
And this led to then tremendous conflict because then the mother felt stuck in the middle.

756
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:44,560
She's trying to tell her religious leader what her daughter's telling her about heaven.

757
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:52,840
And now the daughter is feeling, you know, she's feeling like she's done something wrong.

758
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,520
You know, she's gotten all the adults in her life upset.

759
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:00,320
And you know, now the pastor is coming and listening to her.

760
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,920
So what did you hear heaven was like?

761
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:04,360
And you know, all this kind of stuff.

762
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:10,680
And when I heard the whole story, it sounded to me like the grandmother was just telling

763
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:15,400
her what anybody would tell a seven year old child heaven was like.

764
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:23,360
It wasn't some sort of religious, you know, definitive view of what was heaven.

765
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,640
It just was the sort of thing you might tell a child.

766
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:30,880
And so it is, it's harder to listen than you think.

767
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:38,640
So what would you say to some sort of a religious leader like that pastor or whoever, who a

768
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:45,080
child or an adult comes to them and says, I had this kind of experience, but maybe it's

769
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:51,160
not exactly in line with what you're teaching in your religion.

770
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:52,160
What do you do?

771
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:58,760
I'm not sure that it would be for me to speak to that religious leader.

772
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:04,640
I just, I don't, because the things that I would say, remember, I'm a critical care

773
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:05,640
physician.

774
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,600
I mean, really, I'm not too much about process.

775
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,400
I'm pretty much about the bottom line.

776
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:16,920
But I, you know, to me, I can just speak for myself.

777
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:18,720
We got to be humble.

778
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:19,720
Really.

779
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:28,120
And, you know, this idea that we know God better than someone who's died and actually

780
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:32,560
been in contact, you know, to me, they're the gold standard.

781
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:39,480
I mean, even if you really read the religious tracks and the Bible and, you know, the various

782
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:44,840
religious writings, they only say you've got to get the ego out of there to understand

783
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:45,840
God.

784
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:50,280
And it's our own ego that keeps us from understanding God.

785
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:55,760
Well, that's a great way to get rid of your ego is to have your brain die.

786
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:59,080
That you don't have much ego after that.

787
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:05,480
And so I would think that that experience is the peer experience of whatever this God

788
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:06,640
is.

789
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:08,400
I think that's well said.

790
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:13,120
And let's start with what you said prior to my question, which is just listen.

791
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:14,120
Yeah.

792
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:18,560
We don't have to take what they said and try to interpret it for them.

793
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:20,560
Let's just listen.

794
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:22,160
Absolutely.

795
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:23,560
And leave it there.

796
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:24,560
Okay.

797
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:28,880
Getting back to something I asked, seems like ages ago now.

798
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:30,240
20 minutes or so ago.

799
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:31,720
The transformation.

800
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:32,720
Transformation.

801
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,240
How do these change people?

802
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,520
I'm sorry.

803
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:39,520
I'm laughing.

804
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:41,000
I'm laughing because...

805
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:42,000
That's okay.

806
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:44,200
Let's have a good time here.

807
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:52,120
This journey has been so astonishing for me and nothing really is all the encounter

808
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:54,280
intuitive for me.

809
01:01:54,280 --> 01:02:01,080
So we studied adults who had near death experiences as children.

810
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:04,480
And we again systematically studied them.

811
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:08,480
We compared them to six control groups.

812
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:09,920
We're compulsive.

813
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:11,040
We control.

814
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:16,460
We compared them to adults who just were very religious.

815
01:02:16,460 --> 01:02:21,280
We compared them to adults who had no religious beliefs.

816
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:27,920
We compared them to adults who had serious life threatening events but didn't have near

817
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:32,600
death experience on and on like that.

818
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:38,120
And we learned what the great secret of life is by doing this.

819
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:42,240
And the secret of life is to be nice.

820
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:43,240
To be kind.

821
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:46,520
That's what we learned.

822
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,040
And then just stop right there.

823
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:49,040
That's enough.

824
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,080
That's what we learned.

825
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:54,000
People have near death experiences.

826
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:59,840
They're more likely to be in helping professions in our control group.

827
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:00,840
They...

828
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:05,520
When personality studies, they definitely are nicer.

829
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:07,560
They have almost no fear of death.

830
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:13,760
We gave them all sorts of death, you know, death anxiety questionnaires.

831
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,080
A little girl said it to me best.

832
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:21,000
She said, well, I'm not afraid of dying anymore because I think I know a little bit about

833
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:23,960
it now.

834
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:26,720
But they give more money to charity.

835
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:29,640
We looked at their tax returns.

836
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:33,160
But by and large, they're just nice people.

837
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,440
They spend more time with their family.

838
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:40,760
They spend more time alone and contemplation.

839
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:46,040
And when we ask them, what did you learn from your experience?

840
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:50,520
When I did these studies, by the way, I was a lot younger and more cynical.

841
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:55,880
And more closer to the sort of arrogant of the critical care doc.

842
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,320
So I asked this one guy.

843
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:06,400
I said to him, so, you know, what do you think your near death experience has meant to you?

844
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:14,000
And he said, it told me that I have a very special job to do in this life.

845
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:16,440
And so I'm thinking to myself, oh, great.

846
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,120
You know, he's like, he's here to cure cancer.

847
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:23,600
You know, he thinks he's like some special person or, you know, it's giving him some

848
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:28,200
sort of, I don't know, messiah complex or something.

849
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:30,440
So I said to him, okay, I'll bite.

850
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:32,080
What's your special job?

851
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:36,320
You know, what's your special purpose?

852
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:39,920
And luckily he didn't take offense at my tone.

853
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,960
And he looks at me and he goes, I already told you what my job was.

854
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:47,400
I run a small construction company.

855
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:52,760
And he said, those numb nuts that I work with, they could never get a job.

856
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:58,760
If it weren't for me, he hired all his high school friends and he had a small little remodeling

857
01:04:58,760 --> 01:04:59,760
company.

858
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:05,720
And so that was the meaning of his near death experience.

859
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:12,840
That who he thought his life was all about was to run a small remodeling construction

860
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:16,800
company and hire all his high school friends.

861
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:21,880
So what I learned from that is it's the small things in life.

862
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:27,720
It's the ordinary everyday aspects of life that are important.

863
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:31,600
And when I talk with adults who have near death experiences, I'm sure you've heard the

864
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:32,600
same thing.

865
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:39,720
This one woman I interviewed, she was the head of a large pharmaceutical company and

866
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:43,200
she's done all sorts of wonderful things with her life.

867
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:47,480
So she has her near death experience and her life review.

868
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:56,760
And she learns that she was kind to a handicapped child when she was in summer camp, when she

869
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:59,120
was in high school.

870
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:03,160
That was like the highlight of her life.

871
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:05,760
And I've listened up to that.

872
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:06,960
I really have.

873
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:12,680
I just, you know, that the meaning of our lives is to be kind to each other, to be loving

874
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:18,680
to each other, that the ordinary things that we do in life are probably the most important

875
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:19,680
things.

876
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:27,360
And, you know, for an overachiever like myself, you know, proud of my books about Seller and,

877
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:31,640
you know, I graduated with honors and all that kind of stuff.

878
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:37,360
This was really a big wake up call for me to learn that none of that stuff matters.

879
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:41,880
Taking care of my mom in the last year of her life, that's probably one of the most important

880
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:44,960
things I've ever done with my life.

881
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:50,760
Have any of the children that you interviewed and that you studied, did any of them have

882
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,880
life reviews like some adults do?

883
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:54,880
No.

884
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,320
And that doesn't really surprise me.

885
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:06,880
The closest one child told me she had had a lot of surgery and had leukemia with numerous

886
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:07,880
relapses.

887
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:14,360
And she had this experience of just thinking, oh my God, you know, I went through all that

888
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:16,680
and now I'm just going to die.

889
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:20,920
I'm not sure that's the life review that adults have.

890
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:28,960
But even though they don't have a life review, they have a clear sense that this life is

891
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:35,680
about learning lessons of love and learning to love each other and perhaps even more

892
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:41,360
important, learning to accept the love that other people have for us.

893
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:49,480
I mean, even the youngest children, you know, children in the age three, age five, it's

894
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,760
not really coming to me how they express it.

895
01:07:52,760 --> 01:08:00,800
But you just get that sense from them that they understand that this world is about love.

896
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:04,760
All right, Dr. Wright, I'm going to get a little bit more personal with you if you don't

897
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:05,760
mind.

898
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:06,760
Yes.

899
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:14,760
I can tell that this topic really, really means a lot to you deep down, deep down.

900
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:19,320
Since getting involved with it, how has it changed you personally?

901
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:25,320
Well, let me rather than me.

902
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:30,360
I think there's two major ways it's changed me.

903
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:50,360
One is it's made me pay a lot more attention to other people's feelings and frankly, unloving

904
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,000
ways that I've been.

905
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:58,200
My failures of love, my failures of being able to love other people.

906
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:11,440
And thinking that that was important in my life was writing a paper or being the smartest

907
01:09:11,440 --> 01:09:16,840
person on the faculty or the smartest person in the room.

908
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:28,600
So that's for sure is that in learning to accept the love that people have for me, I

909
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:36,240
think that that's probably where it starts with me is understanding that other people

910
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:37,240
love me.

911
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:44,480
And once I could understand that, it's a lot easier then for me to start to understand

912
01:09:44,480 --> 01:09:49,080
other people and how I've heard them.

913
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:56,000
And even to the point where I learned a meditative technique called Tong-Glin in which you actually

914
01:09:56,000 --> 01:10:04,120
meditate on the suffering that other people have because I've come to understand that

915
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:08,640
this is what's important in life is being kind.

916
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:14,880
And so it's changed going to the supermarket for me.

917
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:15,880
It's changed.

918
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:21,320
You know, well, actually I was inspired by a child.

919
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:29,000
She was a teenager and I asked her, I said, you know, what is it meant to you?

920
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:30,560
And that's what she said to me.

921
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:35,120
She said, I don't mind standing in line at the supermarket anymore because I know there's

922
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:38,320
only something there that's important.

923
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:40,720
Maybe somebody there needs a smile.

924
01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:45,040
Maybe somebody there, you know, maybe I can make a difference to someone I'm standing

925
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:48,080
next to in line just by.

926
01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:51,280
So it's helped me a lot.

927
01:10:51,280 --> 01:11:03,840
The second thing that it's done is really helped me to forgive myself, to understand

928
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:11,520
that when we die, we're going to get a big hug from God and we're going to get an out-of-boy

929
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:15,280
and we're going to get a sense of you did your best.

930
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:22,880
I mean, even Nazi prison guards that have had near-death experiences report that.

931
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:30,680
And this is not just something for myself, but I work a lot with the ex-incarcerated,

932
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:38,840
the prisoners are struggling with their own spiritual issues and the knowledge that when

933
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:44,440
we die, you're not punished for your sins.

934
01:11:44,440 --> 01:11:54,760
But your sins are put in perspective as that they're part of why we're here, that they

935
01:11:54,760 --> 01:12:02,480
had something important to teach us that whatever it was, that whatever we're struggling with

936
01:12:02,480 --> 01:12:04,280
was a lesson.

937
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:06,160
Maybe we failed the lesson.

938
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:09,320
Maybe we totally screwed it up.

939
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:11,720
And certainly I have.

940
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:24,040
But on the other hand, seeing it in that context, I think it helps because once you get crippled

941
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:33,280
by a sense of that you're worthless or shame or guilt, then that in itself prevents you

942
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:40,360
from forgiving others and forgiving yourself and then making restitution.

943
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:50,840
Whereas when you know that what awaits us is a hug and you did your best, to me that

944
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:52,800
makes all the difference.

945
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:55,800
And whatever it is that I'm struggling with.

946
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:58,040
So those are the two ways that it helps me.

947
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:10,240
It's helped me to be kinder, to pay attention to how I affect others.

948
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:13,240
And it's helped me to...

949
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:17,120
That sounds like a weird thing, you know, to forgive yourself.

950
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:29,840
But oddly enough, forgiving yourself is an important part of moving forward and making

951
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:34,760
restitution and improving yourself.

952
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:38,320
You know, I'll expand on that just a little bit.

953
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:44,520
I'll share with you a story from a good friend of mine.

954
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:53,080
He unfortunately got drunk one night and ran over a elderly woman and killed her.

955
01:13:53,080 --> 01:14:03,960
And after years struggling with this in serve time and prison, of course, he got to the

956
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:07,160
point where he forgave himself.

957
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:11,120
So I said to him, well, so that's kind of easy, isn't it?

958
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:17,280
So he just decided to forgive yourself for getting drunk and running somebody over.

959
01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:24,200
And I said, well, what would you tell that woman's son?

960
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:29,240
Would you just say to him, oh, I just forgave myself?

961
01:14:29,240 --> 01:14:32,840
And he said, actually, I would do that.

962
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:39,360
He said, you know, that I realized that what I did was part of my spiritual journey.

963
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:43,320
And I would explain that to that woman's son.

964
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:47,160
And I would tell him, you know, it's part of your spiritual journey too.

965
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:53,600
How you want to react to me, whether you can forgive me, whether you don't, you know, that's

966
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:55,000
your spiritual journey.

967
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:59,280
But he said, but don't think that this is something that's easy.

968
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:05,320
He said, I wasn't able to forgive myself until I took the barrel of the gun out of my mouth.

969
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:11,200
You know, meaning that he was going to kill himself and then, you know, but it's true

970
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:14,280
that he couldn't then move forward.

971
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:20,440
Once he forgave himself, then he could start doing the hard work of figuring out how he

972
01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:22,040
can be a better person.

973
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:25,640
And I've had that experience as well.

974
01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:36,480
I didn't understand the near death experience until I had my own problems with I was convicted

975
01:15:36,480 --> 01:15:37,480
of crime.

976
01:15:37,480 --> 01:15:41,480
I don't want to go into all the details of that.

977
01:15:41,480 --> 01:15:44,720
It's a bit of a complex case.

978
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:53,040
But what I do want to say is that I never understood anything about near death experiences

979
01:15:53,040 --> 01:16:02,480
until I had my experience of the life experience of really having to confront my own behavior

980
01:16:02,480 --> 01:16:08,240
and really have to look at what kind of person am I?

981
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:16,040
Have I done the things and behaved in ways that I am proud of?

982
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:21,400
Prior to that, the near death experience was an intellectual exercise for me.

983
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:25,200
It was something that I really did as a fellow.

984
01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:29,360
I wanted to publish papers.

985
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:34,840
That's the academic, you know, I wanted to write books.

986
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:40,880
As I told you, I wasn't interested in making money off the books, but I certainly saw it

987
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,800
as an ego exercise.

988
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:48,200
And none of this stuff ever touched me personally.

989
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:52,400
I had my own struggles.

990
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:59,680
You know, that's when I really learned what the near death experience is all about.

991
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:09,360
This knowledge that we're here to learn lessons of love and to know that that is, in my opinion,

992
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:13,600
a scientific fact in the year 2022.

993
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:16,760
I don't see that as a philosophical statement.

994
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:26,160
Well, then that then brings you directly to what lessons of love am I learning?

995
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:29,520
And am I learning them appropriately?

996
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:35,920
And what am I doing to, you know, or am I failing in my lessons of love?

997
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:39,360
Thank you so much for opening up, being vulnerable.

998
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:40,360
Wow.

999
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:41,480
I appreciate it.

1000
01:17:41,480 --> 01:17:43,280
What's next for you?

1001
01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:52,400
I think at this point, I'm trying to understand how I can best share with people that science

1002
01:17:52,400 --> 01:18:00,320
does in fact validate the near death experience and spiritual experiences in general.

1003
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:09,560
And so people can see how this has applications for grieving for grief resolution.

1004
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:16,640
And then I have a particular interest in working with recidivism prevention, working with the

1005
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:22,400
X incarcerated and bringing another heroine addiction.

1006
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:26,960
I think that there's a spiritual aspect to that that we can learn from, you know, apply

1007
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:33,680
the lessons of the near death experience in a practical way to some of the problems that

1008
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:35,800
our society is facing.

1009
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:36,800
Okay.

1010
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:38,920
Dr. Morris.

1011
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:40,720
You killed it.

1012
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:43,480
That's a good, that's a good thing.

1013
01:18:43,480 --> 01:18:44,560
Thank you.

1014
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:46,640
I appreciate it so much.

1015
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:47,640
Alrighty.

1016
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:52,320
I mean, I'm going to ask you if you have any last thoughts first, tell me on a scale of

1017
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:56,280
one to 10, how much fear do you have of death?

1018
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:58,760
I don't have any fear of death.

1019
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:07,720
I have a tremendous fear of not being there for my wife has a number of serious medical

1020
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:09,840
problems.

1021
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:16,160
And I want to be here for she, she might be facing a lung transplant and I want to be here

1022
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:17,720
for her.

1023
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:22,840
So I fear that part of it, but I don't fear death.

1024
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:26,000
There's nothing to fear about death.

1025
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:28,800
I don't want to die.

1026
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:33,560
But the process of dying is joyous and spiritual.

1027
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:39,560
And we had talked earlier about this issue of, well, that the messages of the near death

1028
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:45,480
experience can be inspiring and that they say wonderful things, et cetera.

1029
01:19:45,480 --> 01:19:49,280
I'm not sure that's true, Eric.

1030
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:54,880
The near death experience to me says that we're here to learn lessons of love.

1031
01:19:54,880 --> 01:20:01,040
Well, those lessons of love by and large are pretty painful at times and can involve a

1032
01:20:01,040 --> 01:20:02,440
lot of suffering.

1033
01:20:02,440 --> 01:20:09,120
And I don't think, and you have to learn, you have to live it.

1034
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:15,960
It's not a Facebook bumper sticker slogan.

1035
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:23,320
You have to actually make mistakes, fail at those lessons and understand what you did

1036
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:27,120
wrong and be willing to look at them.

1037
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:35,760
And I didn't understand till I actually had to face my own challenges.

1038
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:46,280
And every single person here that's listening to this, you know, you're, there's a song

1039
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:52,600
that I often listen to that says, would if your blessings come with tears, what if it's

1040
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:53,600
raindrops?

1041
01:20:53,600 --> 01:21:04,320
You know, we pray for blessings, but what if it's actually painful experiences of loss

1042
01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:06,360
and suffering?

1043
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:15,760
It's hard to study near death experiences without coming to that conclusion that there

1044
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:21,240
is, there's a reason for the various things.

1045
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:25,840
Well, they say it, I understand why there's war.

1046
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:30,080
I understand why there's serial killers.

1047
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:36,440
I understand, you know, and the reason they're saying that is that even in those horrific

1048
01:21:36,440 --> 01:21:41,440
types of experiences are lessons of love to be learned.

1049
01:21:41,440 --> 01:21:46,000
So it's not for sissies, you know, learning your lessons of love.

1050
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:51,160
Mr. Earthlife is not for sissies, and I do believe there's a message of hope and all

1051
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:52,160
that.

1052
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:53,160
Okay.

1053
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:54,160
Alrighty.

1054
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:55,160
Okay.

1055
01:21:55,160 --> 01:22:03,880
I see as long as we define the message of hope that at the end of the day, we're going

1056
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:07,320
to get that hug from God.

1057
01:22:07,320 --> 01:22:09,400
That's beyond dispute.

1058
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:13,480
We're going to get an out of boy or an out of girl or, you know, we're going to get

1059
01:22:13,480 --> 01:22:18,680
that, that hug of unconditional love and unconditional love.

1060
01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:20,440
Think what that means here.

1061
01:22:20,440 --> 01:22:21,720
People don't think of that.

1062
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:22,720
I think enough.

1063
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:28,840
I hear people say all the time, but wait a minute, how can a murderer, you know, go

1064
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:29,840
to heaven?

1065
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:36,960
How can a murderer have, you know, this, this dying experience?

1066
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:41,720
Unconditional love, non-judgmental.

1067
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:44,160
That means you're not being judged.

1068
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:52,080
The judgment comes because you judge yourself, and that's far more harsh and yet far more

1069
01:22:52,080 --> 01:23:02,120
spiritually nurturing and leads to greater spiritual development than this, I think,

1070
01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:05,000
distorted idea of a judgmental God.

1071
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:10,960
The non-judgmental God, I think, is more terrifying in many ways.

1072
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:13,440
But I believe all lovings still.

1073
01:23:13,440 --> 01:23:14,440
Absolutely.

1074
01:23:14,440 --> 01:23:15,440
Yes.

1075
01:23:15,440 --> 01:23:24,000
And you think of any one really beautiful thing that a child said to you as they were describing

1076
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:27,240
their experience or drawing their experience?

1077
01:23:27,240 --> 01:23:30,760
Oh my gosh, there's so many.

1078
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:31,760
Oh.

1079
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:35,960
Oh, you've got to have a couple of favorites.

1080
01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:44,120
Well, my favorite is, I'll tell you both of my favorites, I guess, one young lady told

1081
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:54,760
me that she saw a light that told her who she was and where she was to go.

1082
01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:56,960
And she drew a rainbow.

1083
01:23:56,960 --> 01:24:05,920
That was, but I just, my favorite one is the young girl that said to me, I said, I'm

1084
01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:11,000
sure I saw a light and it had a lot of good things in it.

1085
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:12,920
I just love that one.

1086
01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:13,920
That's great.

1087
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:14,920
All right.

1088
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:18,640
Dr. Melvin Morse, thank you so very much again.

1089
01:24:18,640 --> 01:24:20,160
You're so welcome.

1090
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:22,680
Thank you for an outstanding interview.

1091
01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:24,800
I learned a lot from this.

1092
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:29,960
You got a lot out of me that doesn't usually, I usually don't think about it, so I appreciate

1093
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:30,960
it.

1094
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:33,640
Thank you.

1095
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:36,640
Thanks again for listening and sharing this podcast.

1096
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:40,680
If you've had a round trip death experience, we would love to hear from you.

1097
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:44,080
Send an email to Eric at roundtriptest.com.

1098
01:24:44,080 --> 01:25:13,600
Until then, I wish you everything good that you're looking for in this life and the next.