1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,000 Hello and welcome to the What in the World is Dyscalculia? podcast. 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:16,200 I'm your host, Honora Wall, and today I would like to talk about the Dyscalculia diagnosis. 3 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:17,760 How do you get one? 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,560 What does it tell you? 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,440 Why are they so hard to find? 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:30,240 There's a lot of reasons why it can be difficult for people to get diagnosed with Dyscalculia. 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:35,360 I'm hoping we can get to all of them in today's podcast, but it's such a big topic, I'm sure 8 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:41,000 we'll come back to it in future episodes as well. 9 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:49,400 I'm going to start with the best way to get a diagnosis, which is to have a neuropsychological 10 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,040 evaluation done by a professional. 11 00:00:53,040 --> 00:01:00,840 Now these evaluations have to be done by a trained psychologist, educational psychologist, 12 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:08,200 neuropsychologist, or a psychologist who specializes in these kind of tests. 13 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:15,880 In this evaluation, a student will have a general IQ test and a number of subtests that 14 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:28,280 look at visual spatial, levels, working memory, processing speed, reading abilities, mathematical 15 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:39,440 abilities, writing, problem solving, a wide variety of issues, and you will be given a 16 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:44,200 scale, a score, and a percentile. 17 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:50,440 We'll talk about what those mean in detail in future podcasts because testing is a really 18 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:56,760 rich, interesting, involved field. 19 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:02,680 The reason why it's hard for people to get a Dyscalculia evaluation done like this is 20 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,200 because they're expensive. 21 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:11,800 Not a lot of people do them, and you have to either pay out of pocket, which could be 22 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:19,840 thousands of dollars, or have your local public school handle the testing through a local 23 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:27,080 testing center or an educational psychologist on staff. 24 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:33,200 Many schools today are using a response to intervention program, and the response to intervention 25 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:40,960 program doesn't always lead to the need for an evaluation. 26 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:48,640 Whether or not your school district uses RTIs, response to intervention, and whether or not 27 00:02:48,640 --> 00:03:00,000 those RTIs lead to further testing is a conversation you need to have with your school district. 28 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:06,480 Maybe keep an eye on who's involved in your local school administration, who's the superintendent, 29 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:16,680 who makes those decisions, and how well-versed are they in federal law, covering disabilities, 30 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,200 and what is their process. 31 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:25,360 You can find all of that out through your local public school. 32 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:30,240 In a perfect world, I love it when people come in with a neuropsycheval because I 33 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:36,880 have tons of data and I know exactly where a student has the strengths and weaknesses, 34 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:44,120 and where we can play off of their strengths, and how we can best support their weaknesses. 35 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:48,920 Many RTI programs sadly don't give us that kind of data. 36 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:54,760 We only know where a student struggles, and we know what kind of interventions may have 37 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,560 helped. 38 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:05,080 But we don't really know why, and we don't know at what level a problem exists. 39 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:13,320 If you can get a neuropsycheval, you're going to look for the mathematical scores 40 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:18,360 that come back on those tests. 41 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:23,720 Typically you're going to find that scores are done on a percentile, and your student 42 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:31,840 could be in the 25th percentile, the 30th percentile, 60th percentile, etc. 43 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:38,080 These are not a percentage score, and again in a future podcast we'll talk about that 44 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:48,360 difference, but they tell you how your student compared to other students of their same age 45 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,440 and grade who took that same test. 46 00:04:52,440 --> 00:05:00,560 Typically we want to see scores in the 40th percentile to the 60th percentile. 47 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:07,720 Those are very what we call average, run of the mill scores where we expect most people 48 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:08,720 to land. 49 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:17,360 It's when we get above that 60th percentile, and truly the 75th percentile and up. 50 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:24,800 Now we're looking at above average performance, and when we get to the 30th percentile, and 51 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:32,080 especially the 25th percentile, that's when we're seeing a performance that shows a weakness. 52 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:40,760 And if that weakness is in math, then a dyscalculia diagnosis is appropriate. 53 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,560 You might wonder why the 25th versus the 30th. 54 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,880 That's a great question. 55 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:53,280 There's not a huge difference between the 25th and 30th percentile as far as number 56 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:56,360 of questions right. 57 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:03,560 The difference really comes down to how the test giver interpreted those scores. 58 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:13,120 And some psychologists take a 25th percentile as a dyscalculia or a specific learning disorder 59 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,920 diagnosis. 60 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:20,120 And that is a very conservative number. 61 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,240 And it can keep some students out of getting services. 62 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:32,960 Thirty percentile is a very standard cutoff for diagnosing someone with dyscalculia. 63 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,560 We see that a lot in research studies. 64 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:41,800 The quantitative and qualitative research about dyscalculia usually includes students 65 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:46,320 who score at the 30th percentile or below. 66 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:52,480 Now for a neuropsych eval, the difference between 25th and 30th percentile is really 67 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,600 just an interpretation of the scores. 68 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:02,920 Psychologists don't want to give a diagnosis that is unnecessary. 69 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:09,120 And once we take people in the 30th percentile, we can get false positives. 70 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,320 We can get people who seem to have a learning disorder. 71 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:19,160 Maybe they just have low numeracy and that can be fixed with interventions. 72 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,360 Maybe they are an English language learner and they're still getting the handle on the 73 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:28,440 vocabulary and that influence their test scores. 74 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:34,280 Maybe it's a processing speed issue but not a mathematical concept issue. 75 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:43,240 So it's a gray area if your psychologist uses 25th or 30th percentile as their diagnosis 76 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,760 cutoff. 77 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:51,760 Of course talking about evaluations can be much more involved and we'll take a deep dive 78 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:57,200 into those and I'll talk about some of the evaluations I've seen from students I've worked 79 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,800 with in other podcasts. 80 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:12,520 Today I want to talk about the other ways students can be diagnosed or not with dyscalculia. 81 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:18,040 A second way is to look at students' performance in school. 82 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:25,400 Typically we say that if a student performs two grade levels below their peers, that should 83 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:30,320 qualify them for a diagnosis of dyscalculia. 84 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:38,320 But this is very unofficial and your school may or may not use that as a reference point. 85 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:44,600 It also doesn't tell us why and whether or not the problem is low numeracy or if there's 86 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:52,480 an actual problem in the parietal lobe which happens for students with dyscalculia. 87 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:58,440 You might also find that your student is performing behind their peers but the school says that 88 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,720 they have a math learning disability but not dyscalculia. 89 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:09,920 In that case I would encourage you to encourage your school to check out the Department of 90 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:17,760 Education website, federal law and the federal Department of Education has been very, very 91 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,000 clear. 92 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:24,560 The name of the math learning disability is dyscalculia. 93 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:31,760 There's no difference, no difference, that's what it is, whatever we call it, that's what 94 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,280 it is. 95 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:39,440 So I do hate to see students not receive services because they're told that they have a math 96 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,880 learning disability but that it's not dyscalculia. 97 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,640 That's just not true. 98 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:51,560 And hopefully with more awareness we'll have more services available and more of an understanding. 99 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:56,880 And you're going to find that a lot of schools and a lot of teachers and principals have 100 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,760 not heard of dyscalculia. 101 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,040 We just need more awareness. 102 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,120 We need more people talking about this disorder. 103 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:09,920 We need more people sharing accurate scientific research based information and there are plenty 104 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:18,280 of great websites where you can find out that information including mine, educalclearning.com. 105 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,440 But don't stop there. 106 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:25,520 Keep going and do your research with lots of websites and find out everything that you 107 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,440 can and then share that knowledge. 108 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,360 That's how we're going to really make a difference for our students. 109 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:38,040 Okay so two ways to diagnose dyscalculia. 110 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:46,240 First a neuropsych eval that brings back mathematical scores in the 25th to 30th percentile. 111 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:53,120 That's the best way because it gives us the most comprehensive specific data. 112 00:10:53,120 --> 00:11:00,720 Another way is to perform math two grade levels below your peers. 113 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:06,080 That shows a real difference in a concerning way. 114 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:13,760 That's an overall difference not just one bad math test score but over time having that 115 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,040 lower performance. 116 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:23,320 Another way that we typically include people in research studies as having dyscalculia 117 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:31,480 is to look at their performance on standardized tests. 118 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:39,280 And we're looking there for a difference, an unexpected difference that does not match 119 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,560 peers when they take standardized tests. 120 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:50,200 Then the problem with that model is that we really don't know why the student had a low 121 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:51,200 test score. 122 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,800 Were they having a bad day at the time they took that particular test? 123 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,600 Is this the first time they've ever seen that test? 124 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:04,600 And the questions were unusual or they were asked in a strange way or the vocabulary was 125 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:05,600 not accessible. 126 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:12,160 There's a million reasons why a person can have a low score on a standardized test. 127 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:19,000 And those really show one brief moment of time so they can be helpful but they're not 128 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:20,000 comprehensive. 129 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:26,760 Okay but these are the three ways that we usually look to see whether or not we can 130 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,400 diagnose a student with dyscalculia. 131 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:36,720 Of course parents and teachers suspect that there's an issue long before we get this kind 132 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:42,160 of data in and then we work with the data we get. 133 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:47,960 I know a lot of parents also are resistant to having any kind of diagnosis because they 134 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,120 don't want to label for their child. 135 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:57,960 And I can understand that I'm a parent too and we're very protective of our kids. 136 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:06,440 The thing I would encourage parents to remember is that getting an accurate diagnosis is really 137 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:11,040 the same as having an accurate eyeglass prescription. 138 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:18,640 When students need help, they need help and having the best amount of information is the 139 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:28,200 best way to get them the help that they deserve and that they are guaranteed by law. 140 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,440 Equal equitable access to education. 141 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,040 And that's really important. 142 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:39,880 So if you are on the fence about having your child tested, I would encourage you to really 143 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:40,960 think about that. 144 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,200 Talk with some other parents who have been through the process. 145 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:49,040 Talk with some teachers and school administrators and see what they say about it and remember 146 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,240 that you're not labeling your child. 147 00:13:53,240 --> 00:14:00,200 You're helping them get access to the resources that they need and deserve. 148 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:08,840 And then parents make your best decision with that information once you get that. 149 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,920 Parents I know that a lot of times we get nervous about dyscalculia before we get a 150 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:20,400 diagnosis because we notice that our student is struggling so much for years and the interventions 151 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:27,920 aren't helping, the RTI model isn't really making progress, we don't see growth, we see 152 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:33,000 the same problems that they learn math and then forget it. 153 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,480 Basic facts are not memorized, which honestly is fine. 154 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:43,800 Memorization is a parlor trick, but it can make it easier to complete math work faster 155 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,600 if you have things memorized. 156 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,960 For students with dyscalculia that's not going to happen. 157 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:54,800 So we want to let that go and get them support tools instead. 158 00:14:54,800 --> 00:15:00,160 And when we see children have these continuing struggles then it really impacts their self-esteem 159 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:05,960 and their self-confidence and they stop thinking about themselves as mathematical thinkers. 160 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:15,600 So we can see those sorts of behavioral problems whether or not we have a specific diagnosis. 161 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:24,640 So you're going to see some actions and behaviors from your child and you know if they're having 162 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:32,600 a really serious long-term issue versus did they have one bad day versus are they having 163 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,920 one or two tough math topics. 164 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:45,000 It's pretty clear where your student is ending up if you pay attention to those things. 165 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:50,560 And I know a lot of people around the country are having a hard time getting an official 166 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:56,040 diagnosis and getting that evaluation done. 167 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,680 The best I can tell you is to keep pushing, keep advocating for your child, keep asking 168 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:08,720 questions, keep talking to schools, to the administration, to the superintendent, go 169 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:15,480 to school board meetings, get involved and talk to some local psychologists, see if they're 170 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:23,240 taking clients for testing and how much they charge, it can be pricey but make those phone 171 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,200 calls and find out what you can do. 172 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,800 And don't give up. 173 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,640 Don't let it slide. 174 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,640 It's better to know than not know. 175 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:40,040 And having a diagnosis will open up doors to the interventions and accommodations that 176 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,080 your student needs. 177 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,960 I'd love to see that happen for elementary school kids because we can get them on the 178 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,040 right track early. 179 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,600 It's great if it can happen in middle school because there's still a lot of school left 180 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,480 and we want to have the help. 181 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:04,400 If you have not gotten one before high school, keep pushing because if you don't have accommodations 182 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:12,360 and you are not using accommodations in high school, then you're going to have a hard time 183 00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:21,040 or it'll be impossible to get those accommodations recognized for SATs, ACTs, to bring those 184 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,200 IEPs and evaluations with you to college. 185 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:26,520 Super important. 186 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,560 We will have future podcasts where we talk about the college problem because holy cannoli 187 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,960 is it a big one. 188 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:39,800 If you think K-12 is hard for people with dyscalculia, wait until we talk about higher 189 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,000 education. 190 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:49,040 So if you've gotten the documentation for your child in the K-12 system, you'll have 191 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:55,160 a leg up when you get into higher education. 192 00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:00,520 So that was a lot of information in this podcast today and there's a lot more to be said about 193 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:09,360 each of these parts, the RTI, the standardized tests, neuropsych evals, what you know as a 194 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:12,360 parent and what you see in your students' behavior. 195 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:18,400 So we will talk about all of that on different episodes. 196 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,000 For today, I'm really glad that you listened in. 197 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,520 I hope you got some good information. 198 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:30,040 If you have specific questions, I would love to answer them in a podcast episode. 199 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:39,320 Please reach out to me at Honora, H-O-N-O-R-A at educalclearning.com. 200 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,840 Go to my website, educalclearning.com, leave a message there. 201 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,640 Find me on LinkedIn. 202 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,000 Educalc Learning has a LinkedIn page and a Facebook page. 203 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:54,800 And let me know what's on your mind and I will be happy to get you the most up to date 204 00:18:54,800 --> 00:19:01,400 current scientifically accurate information that I possibly can. 205 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:02,640 I'm Honora Wall. 206 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:08,840 This is the What in the World is Dyscalculia podcast and thank you for listening. 207 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:25,880 Talk soon.