WEBVTT 00:00:02.350 --> 00:00:06.269 Hi there. Welcome to What in the World is Dyscalculia? 00:00:06.530 --> 00:00:09.330 The podcast that is all about the specific learning 00:00:09.330 --> 00:00:12.929 disorder for mathematics. I'm Dr. Honora Wall. 00:00:12.990 --> 00:00:16.469 I'm your host of the podcast. If you've listened 00:00:16.469 --> 00:00:19.850 before, welcome back. If you're new to the podcast, 00:00:20.170 --> 00:00:23.730 thank you for joining us. The podcast is sponsored 00:00:23.730 --> 00:00:27.149 by Educalc Learning, which is our for -profit 00:00:27.149 --> 00:00:31.440 arm that offers teacher training, certification 00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:35.719 in being a Dyscalculia Specialist and K -12 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:38.899 classes for students with Dyscalculia. And 00:00:38.899 --> 00:00:41.140 coming this fall, we'll be adding PreCalc to 00:00:41.140 --> 00:00:44.020 our lineup, so I'm very excited about that. You 00:00:44.020 --> 00:00:47.520 can also find a lot of information for free at 00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:51.799 thedtri .org. That's the Dyscalculia Training 00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:56.960 and Research Institute, and that is a 501c3 dedicated 00:00:56.960 --> 00:00:59.700 to changing the lived experience of people with 00:00:59.700 --> 00:01:04.760 dyscalculia. And I am starting this podcast episode 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:09.159 with a recent epiphany I had about myself, which 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:11.680 doesn't seem to surprise too many other people 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:14.239 I've told it to, which is interesting in and 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:17.900 of itself. And I think this one will really land 00:01:17.900 --> 00:01:23.810 for the older listeners, especially adults who 00:01:23.810 --> 00:01:29.189 grew up in a time where, like I did, it didn't 00:01:29.189 --> 00:01:31.109 matter if you had a problem in school, you needed 00:01:31.109 --> 00:01:34.670 to figure it out. And growing up with that system 00:01:34.670 --> 00:01:40.609 where dyscalculia only existed in the neurology 00:01:40.609 --> 00:01:44.969 research, maybe a little bit of psychology research 00:01:44.969 --> 00:01:48.469 and not very much in the educational space, When 00:01:48.469 --> 00:01:52.390 I was coming through K -12, even dyslexia was 00:01:52.390 --> 00:01:56.689 pretty new, just starting to gain awareness and 00:01:56.689 --> 00:01:59.189 certainly nowhere near the understanding and 00:01:59.189 --> 00:02:01.870 training that we have today. So that's good news 00:02:01.870 --> 00:02:05.670 for us in the world of dyscalculia and dysgraphia, 00:02:05.769 --> 00:02:09.490 dyspraxia. We can see the path forward through 00:02:09.490 --> 00:02:12.270 funded research opportunities that really help 00:02:12.270 --> 00:02:15.509 us nail down the right interventions and accommodations 00:02:15.509 --> 00:02:19.349 for all of the specific learning disorders and 00:02:19.349 --> 00:02:22.189 other types of neurodivergence. But here's my 00:02:22.189 --> 00:02:28.710 epiphany. I have dyscalculia and I thought that 00:02:28.710 --> 00:02:35.150 I did not because I've spent the last 20 something 00:02:35.150 --> 00:02:40.030 years doing math all day every day as a classroom 00:02:40.030 --> 00:02:45.669 teacher in my research around dyscalculia and 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:48.719 in my awareness and training campaigns for dyscalculia. 00:02:50.020 --> 00:02:53.259 So I do want to talk a little bit about that 00:02:53.259 --> 00:02:57.500 how this epiphany happened and how did this come 00:02:57.500 --> 00:03:00.479 about and if you're not sure if you have dyscalculia 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:03.000 or if you think that you definitely don't but 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:06.879 you have all the indicators then maybe it's something 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:10.219 for you to consider and that's really what what 00:03:10.219 --> 00:03:14.150 happened to me. I have all of the indicators 00:03:14.150 --> 00:03:19.930 of dyscalculia. I always did. My K -12 math experience 00:03:19.930 --> 00:03:25.969 was highly unpleasant, highly unpleasant all 00:03:25.969 --> 00:03:29.750 the way through. And as much as I was smart and 00:03:29.750 --> 00:03:33.830 capable in every other subject area, math did 00:03:33.830 --> 00:03:36.629 not land for me in any way shape or form. And 00:03:36.629 --> 00:03:41.150 everyone I knew and everyone who knew me just 00:03:41.150 --> 00:03:43.889 defined me as a person who was not capable of 00:03:43.889 --> 00:03:48.930 doing math. I just couldn't do it. And then later 00:03:48.930 --> 00:03:53.189 on as an adult, I ended up going back to the 00:03:53.189 --> 00:03:56.729 beginning. If you've read my book, Teaching Students 00:03:56.729 --> 00:03:58.909 with Dyscalculia, you know a little bit of this 00:03:58.909 --> 00:04:00.789 journey, but I'm going to have to make a second 00:04:00.789 --> 00:04:03.830 edition of that book because in the introduction 00:04:03.830 --> 00:04:07.930 I say I don't have dyscalculia because I just 00:04:07.930 --> 00:04:11.520 didn't know. I had very much internalized that 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:14.560 the reason why I could not do math is because, 00:04:14.740 --> 00:04:17.240 see if any of these adjectives ring true for 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:23.779 you, I was flighty. I was distracted. I was uninterested. 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:28.579 I wasn't trying hard enough. And that's why I 00:04:28.579 --> 00:04:31.879 couldn't do it. And if I would have just applied 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:36.610 myself, then I could have. That's completely 00:04:36.610 --> 00:04:39.269 false. It's an absolutely false narrative and 00:04:39.269 --> 00:04:43.709 it's part of the self blame and shame that most 00:04:43.709 --> 00:04:47.589 people with dyscalculia feel even now when we're 00:04:47.589 --> 00:04:51.310 getting better at discussing learning disabilities 00:04:51.310 --> 00:04:55.410 and we're getting better at discussing and Identifying 00:04:55.410 --> 00:04:59.029 and hopefully officially diagnosing Learning 00:04:59.029 --> 00:05:02.610 disabilities like dyscalculia even as that's 00:05:02.610 --> 00:05:05.819 a bigger part of our narrative there's still 00:05:05.819 --> 00:05:08.639 that feeling of self -blame and shame for people 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:13.560 who have a learning disability. So I had all 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.839 the indicators. I had to go back and teach myself 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:20.720 math as an adult and I mean in my early 30s going 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:23.920 back taking my son's second and third grade math 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:28.100 textbook and starting at page one. It was a lot. 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:31.839 It took a really long time. And there were a 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:35.459 lot of weeks of crying over third grade word 00:05:35.459 --> 00:05:39.279 problems. It took a really long time for me to 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:42.060 figure these things out. And a lot of that was 00:05:42.060 --> 00:05:45.980 working out the trauma of my K -12 math experience. 00:05:47.019 --> 00:05:50.019 That's certainly a large piece, especially for 00:05:50.019 --> 00:05:53.269 anyone listening who's over 30. You're going 00:05:53.269 --> 00:05:56.129 to have a lot more of that. Not that our younger 00:05:56.129 --> 00:05:58.810 students, our listeners under 30, don't have 00:05:58.810 --> 00:06:01.430 it. They absolutely do. But hopefully we are 00:06:01.430 --> 00:06:05.329 starting to address that more and change that 00:06:05.329 --> 00:06:08.250 trajectory. All right. So I had to work through 00:06:08.250 --> 00:06:10.689 teaching myself math. I had to figure out what 00:06:10.689 --> 00:06:13.730 worked for me. And then as I got into teaching 00:06:13.730 --> 00:06:16.410 math and working with struggling students and 00:06:16.410 --> 00:06:21.069 then later hearing about and then studying dyscalculia, 00:06:21.910 --> 00:06:24.550 One common phrase I would hear from my students 00:06:24.550 --> 00:06:28.850 all the time, I still do, is why does it make 00:06:28.850 --> 00:06:31.009 sense when you say it? It doesn't make any sense 00:06:31.009 --> 00:06:35.230 when my teacher tells it to me. Why didn't anybody 00:06:35.230 --> 00:06:37.629 say it this way before? And I've always said, 00:06:37.629 --> 00:06:40.790 you know, I really don't know. I have no idea. 00:06:40.790 --> 00:06:43.589 It seems so obvious to me. Well, that's because 00:06:43.589 --> 00:06:47.449 I think about math differently. I process it 00:06:47.449 --> 00:06:49.449 differently and I understand it differently. 00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:53.920 Not that I don't understand it. Today I can do 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:57.399 all sorts of math, quite a bit of it in my head. 00:06:58.100 --> 00:07:00.399 I still think about it differently because when 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:03.959 I think about my interpretation of math and my 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:06.519 expression of math and what's exciting and interesting 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:11.000 about math, most math teachers look at me with 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:13.660 a blank face. It's not really landing for them 00:07:13.660 --> 00:07:16.480 what I have to say. So there is a disconnect 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:19.500 and now it makes sense to me. Part of that disconnect 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:24.259 is that I have a neurodivergent way of thinking 00:07:24.259 --> 00:07:28.720 about math. That is still true when I work with 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:31.639 other dyscalculia experts and teacher trainers 00:07:31.639 --> 00:07:35.819 who focus a lot on the elementary math and manipulatives 00:07:35.819 --> 00:07:39.800 and that CRA, concrete representational abstract 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:44.810 method of teaching, which is fantastic. Not so 00:07:44.810 --> 00:07:48.810 much for me. So there is that disconnect, but 00:07:48.810 --> 00:07:51.750 now that makes a lot more sense to me. I shared 00:07:51.750 --> 00:07:55.410 this with one of our board members at the DTRI 00:07:55.410 --> 00:07:58.250 who was part of the team that developed the free 00:07:58.250 --> 00:08:06.149 online screener at dysctest .com. D -Y -S -C. 00:08:08.589 --> 00:08:11.449 I really do like that screener quite a bit. But 00:08:11.449 --> 00:08:13.709 I was sharing this sort of epiphany with her 00:08:13.709 --> 00:08:18.230 and she said, yes, you told me that two, three 00:08:18.230 --> 00:08:21.490 years ago when you took our screener. And I said, 00:08:21.509 --> 00:08:25.410 but I don't think the screener said, I have dyscalculia. 00:08:25.430 --> 00:08:28.370 She said, it's to add a lot of maybes and a lot 00:08:28.370 --> 00:08:31.810 of indicators and you don't get maybes and indicators. 00:08:32.350 --> 00:08:34.970 you don't have this different way of thinking. 00:08:35.029 --> 00:08:40.169 And I got those maybes and those indicators because 00:08:40.169 --> 00:08:43.549 I've been doing math for 20 years all day every 00:08:43.549 --> 00:08:47.149 day. I know enough about the patterns. I know 00:08:47.149 --> 00:08:50.330 how we ask questions. I know what to expect. 00:08:50.529 --> 00:08:55.269 So I'm going to skew results if I take a true 00:08:55.269 --> 00:08:58.250 diagnostic assessment. If I did a neuropsych 00:08:58.250 --> 00:09:02.070 eval I would bet I would have to use a discrepancy 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:06.440 model to really see a difference. And here's 00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:10.500 why. Again, I know enough about math now and 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:13.799 I know enough about pattern recognition and test 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:16.940 taking strategies that I'm quite sure my math 00:09:16.940 --> 00:09:22.000 scores would be above the 25th or 30th percentile, 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:25.720 which is usually our cutoff for dyscalculia or 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:27.840 for learning disabilities, whatever happens to 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:31.549 be looked at in the evaluation. So I know those 00:09:31.549 --> 00:09:34.169 scores would be outside of the acceptable range. 00:09:34.889 --> 00:09:38.049 However, I know from other tests that I've taken, 00:09:38.110 --> 00:09:41.570 getting into graduate school and SAT performance 00:09:41.570 --> 00:09:45.570 and things like that, that my other score areas 00:09:45.570 --> 00:09:51.429 outside of math usually land in the 97th percentile. 00:09:51.970 --> 00:09:55.250 But there would be enough of a discrepancy between 00:09:55.250 --> 00:09:59.129 those two to make the learning disability really 00:09:59.129 --> 00:10:02.889 stand out. Now, I've been studying dyscalculia 00:10:02.889 --> 00:10:07.049 for more than a decade, probably close to 15 00:10:07.049 --> 00:10:11.230 years of being solidly in this camp, not even 00:10:11.230 --> 00:10:14.149 just trained as a classroom teacher, understanding 00:10:14.149 --> 00:10:16.970 the pedagogy, understanding how to teach adult 00:10:16.970 --> 00:10:22.070 learners, understanding math, just really deep 00:10:22.070 --> 00:10:26.350 diving into this learning disability. But I did 00:10:26.350 --> 00:10:29.450 not think of myself as being in that camp. because 00:10:29.450 --> 00:10:32.590 of those negative terms that have been put on 00:10:32.590 --> 00:10:34.870 me by pretty much everyone I knew, especially 00:10:34.870 --> 00:10:41.250 all the adults around me from day one. Not to 00:10:41.250 --> 00:10:44.110 put a blame on other adults and teachers at that 00:10:44.110 --> 00:10:47.009 time, nobody was talking about any of these things. 00:10:47.690 --> 00:10:51.409 Even ADD and ADHD did not exist as something 00:10:51.409 --> 00:10:54.509 we talked about when I was in the K -12 system. 00:10:55.529 --> 00:10:59.190 So I can look back through that lens of what 00:10:59.190 --> 00:11:03.889 I know now and see where a lot of my issues and 00:11:03.889 --> 00:11:05.929 my friends, where they had issues, where things 00:11:05.929 --> 00:11:08.590 came from. We just didn't know. When you know 00:11:08.590 --> 00:11:11.490 better, you do better, and you can't know until 00:11:11.490 --> 00:11:16.529 you know. That's why the DTRI works so hard at 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:21.370 awareness around dyscalculia and around the truth 00:11:21.370 --> 00:11:25.710 about neurodivergence. That's why we do so many 00:11:25.710 --> 00:11:28.169 of our social media reels and so many different 00:11:28.169 --> 00:11:31.389 platforms and speak at as many conferences as 00:11:31.389 --> 00:11:35.230 I can get to and get the word out in as many 00:11:35.230 --> 00:11:39.450 spaces as possible. It would have completely 00:11:39.450 --> 00:11:43.750 changed my trajectory had I known, had anyone 00:11:43.750 --> 00:11:48.450 around me known when I was younger what the issue 00:11:48.450 --> 00:11:50.889 was and how to help me get around that barrier. 00:11:51.490 --> 00:11:54.529 Now, of course, From this vantage point today, 00:11:54.610 --> 00:11:57.509 I have to be grateful for the way things went 00:11:57.509 --> 00:12:00.649 because if someone had held me out before I never 00:12:00.649 --> 00:12:02.450 would have been able to do the work that I'm 00:12:02.450 --> 00:12:05.549 doing today, which I find highly gratifying. 00:12:05.649 --> 00:12:09.610 I love working with my students of all ages and 00:12:09.610 --> 00:12:14.190 I still tend to work with older students and 00:12:14.190 --> 00:12:17.950 adults more than elementary. We'll save that 00:12:17.950 --> 00:12:23.909 for another podcast episode. partly because I 00:12:23.909 --> 00:12:26.269 still don't like that kind of work. I find it 00:12:26.269 --> 00:12:30.269 to be the least interesting part of math. And 00:12:30.269 --> 00:12:32.570 one day I'd like to retire so I can't start working 00:12:32.570 --> 00:12:34.629 with younger students or I'll never be able to 00:12:34.629 --> 00:12:38.929 get them across the finish line in retirement 00:12:38.929 --> 00:12:41.809 fashion. So there's lots of reasons for why I 00:12:41.809 --> 00:12:46.809 choose which grade levels I work with. So I need 00:12:46.809 --> 00:12:50.909 to make a second edition of my book and change 00:12:50.909 --> 00:12:55.590 that introduction. I need to get the word out 00:12:55.590 --> 00:12:58.389 in a lot of different spaces. So hopefully I 00:12:58.389 --> 00:13:01.350 can reach other adults who are having the same 00:13:01.350 --> 00:13:06.450 experience and so that we can change the experience 00:13:06.450 --> 00:13:10.049 for younger students. That's why early identification 00:13:10.049 --> 00:13:14.049 and screening is so important. However, a lot 00:13:14.049 --> 00:13:16.669 of us don't get early identification and screening, 00:13:16.850 --> 00:13:19.309 myself included, so we have to be able to help 00:13:19.309 --> 00:13:23.860 people where they are today. and make sure that 00:13:23.860 --> 00:13:27.299 dyscalculia is not a barrier to upper level math. 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:30.340 It never should be. To make sure dyscalculia 00:13:30.340 --> 00:13:33.600 is not a barrier to a high school diploma, it 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:36.639 should never be. And to make sure dyscalculia 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:42.039 is not a barrier to a college degree and to careers 00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:47.820 chosen by the person, not by the systemic experience 00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:52.019 around math classes. So my epiphany was really 00:13:52.019 --> 00:13:55.360 eye -opening, really clarified a lot of things. 00:13:55.379 --> 00:13:58.259 It did feel a lot like a camera lens that got 00:13:58.259 --> 00:14:01.399 clicked into the right focus. And then I said, 00:14:02.539 --> 00:14:05.940 oh, wow, so many things make sense now. They 00:14:05.940 --> 00:14:10.220 really do. So if you're not sure whether or not 00:14:10.220 --> 00:14:13.860 you have a learning disability, there are lots 00:14:13.860 --> 00:14:17.259 of ways you can find out. There are a lot of 00:14:17.259 --> 00:14:20.309 screeners for dyslexia out there. There are some 00:14:20.309 --> 00:14:23.730 screeners for dyscalculia out there. And then 00:14:23.730 --> 00:14:26.350 we need to get a little better at screeners for 00:14:26.350 --> 00:14:29.610 dysgraphia and dyspraxia. There's a lot of information 00:14:29.610 --> 00:14:34.350 and screeners out about ADHD or autism spectrum. 00:14:34.950 --> 00:14:38.889 So find that information. Keep looking. And here's 00:14:38.889 --> 00:14:43.230 an indicator for you to keep with you. If the 00:14:43.230 --> 00:14:46.529 message you're telling yourself is that you struggle 00:14:46.529 --> 00:14:51.409 because you're lazy, That is false. If you're 00:14:51.409 --> 00:14:53.750 telling yourself that you struggle because you're 00:14:53.750 --> 00:14:58.129 flighty or distracted, that is false. If you're 00:14:58.129 --> 00:15:00.590 telling yourself you struggle because you really 00:15:00.590 --> 00:15:03.070 haven't tried as hard as you could, I mean you 00:15:03.070 --> 00:15:07.809 could try a little harder, that is false. So 00:15:07.809 --> 00:15:10.590 the minute you start having negative self -blame, 00:15:11.169 --> 00:15:13.570 that's a pretty good sign that you're on the 00:15:13.570 --> 00:15:16.799 wrong path. You want to talk to professionals, 00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:18.519 you want to look at some screeners, you want 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:21.460 to get some more information and take an unbiased 00:15:21.460 --> 00:15:26.200 look. Not through a lens of self -blame, but 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:30.740 through a lens of what we know about indicators 00:15:30.740 --> 00:15:34.899 for learning disabilities. Get some information, 00:15:35.179 --> 00:15:39.299 talk to some people, and give yourself some grace 00:15:39.299 --> 00:15:43.500 and mercy. I'm Dr. Honora Wall. and I'm going 00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:47.039 to go read some more about myself and my newly 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:49.100 discovered learning disability that I've been 00:15:49.100 --> 00:15:52.580 carrying around for a really long time but haven't 00:15:52.580 --> 00:15:54.960 been paying too much attention to as it relates 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:58.559 to myself. Thank you for listening to What in 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:01.679 the World is Dyscalculia? If you have any questions 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:04.399 or comments or would like to see some different 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.399 topics in the future, please reach out. I'd love 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:10.759 to hear from you. You can email me at honora, 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:15.500 h -o -n -o -r -a, at the d -t -r -i dot org, 00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:19.580 or honora at eduCalcLearning dot com if you have 00:16:19.580 --> 00:16:22.200 questions about our teacher training and our 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:25.720 online math classes for students. And you can 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:28.799 find me on a lot of social media outlets. And 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:32.220 be sure to join our teachers support group on 00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:36.000 Facebook so that we can build capacity and a 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:39.789 network. of teachers who are understanding and 00:16:39.789 --> 00:16:43.009 helping students with dyscalculia. Thanks for 00:16:43.009 --> 00:16:44.149 listening. See you soon.