Hi, welcome back to the What in the World is
Dyscalculia podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Honora
Wall, and the What in the World is Dyscalculia
podcast is put on by Educalc Learning. You can
find out more about our company and our services
at EducalcLearning .com, or you can visit the
DTRI .org for more information and research into
dyscalculia and neurodivergence in general. And
what I want to talk about in today's episode
is self -advocacy. Trending topic in education
right now. It's a big thing when we're working
with neurodivergent students and we do a lot
of training and discussing self -advocacy tips
for children and young adults, especially as
they get into higher ed. I have a couple of problems
with self -advocacy. and I want to discuss them
because if we can answer some of these questions
and address some of these issues, we can get
farther with self -advocacy and supporting students.
So my first issue with self -advocacy, it puts
a lot of undue pressure and burden on children
and young adults. Yes, we want people to know
how to defend themselves, explain themselves,
discuss their strengths and weaknesses, and iterate
to the educator, their teacher, tutor, whomever,
what best helps them to learn and what best helps
them to show their knowledge. That's a lot to
expect of a child. It's hard for them to know
themselves or to have the vocabulary to put their
strengths and weaknesses into words. So when
we talk about self -advocacy skills and we train
students in self -advocacy, what are we asking
them to say? How are we asking them to say it?
And how much time are we spending with them modeling
self -advocacy, modeling how to describe their
strengths and weaknesses and their needs in the
classroom? And how much of that burden really
should fall onto a child? Now, certainly we want
children to have agency in their IEP and 504
meetings. We do want to ask them, what is their
experience like? But there's a reason why we
are the experts in the room. We're the grownups.
And by definition, they are not. Even when we
look at higher education, we're looking at very
young adults who are transitioning out of high
school. Sometimes it's their first time living
on their own or taking care of themselves, and
we're putting them into a situation where all
of this burden falls on their shoulders. And
they may or may not know how to explain themselves
in the most effective way. So if we want to bring
children into the conversation of self -advocacy
we need to do it with a lot more training a lot
more modeling and understanding that they are
part of the conversation But they shouldn't be
driving the conversation because they're the
children and we're the grown -ups and we need
to act like it which leads into my second issue
with self -advocacy and this one goes really
straight to the educators in the room, and the
student success coordinator at the college and
university. Here are the two things recently
that have set me off on this topic. The first
issue, I had a high school student in Miami,
Florida, a large district, a large public school.
She's very good at self -advocacy. We've done
a lot of work on modeling how she can explain
dyscalculia. ADHD and her strengths and weaknesses
as a student. She's highly intelligent and a
very strong student. And her high school math
teacher said dyscalculia isn't real. You don't
have that, it doesn't exist. Well, where is the
student supposed to go for their self -advocacy
after hearing a remark like that? This door is
completely closed. The teacher has zero interest.
in learning about the student's strengths and
weaknesses and what they need to succeed in the
classroom. So I don't know what the student was
supposed to do after that. The whole thing was
very shocking. And that's part of why we do so
much awareness. That's part of why you're seeing
dyscalculia trending along with dysgraphia. We
haven't even started talking about dyspraxia
yet on a national scale. And learning more about
neurodivergence, in general. And teachers, just
to make sure you know, discount coolium might
be new to you, but we're rolling up on a hundred
years of research into the math learning disability
in the fields of neuroscience, psychology, and
education. Now there's no way a classroom teacher
has the time, much less the energy, and sometimes
not even the interest, to keep up on every single
bit of research that's coming out. That's why
you go to conferences. That's why you attend
trainings. That's why you engage in your PD.
And that's why you do a little bit of reading
on your own. The knowledge is out there. If you
have any questions about dyscalculia or dyspraxia
or dysgraphia, feel free to reach out. Email
me and I'm happy to help you. Without stress
or frustration, learn how to support your students.
But to tell a child that what they have diagnosed
by a psychologist doesn't exist. That just shows
a real lack of interest. That's definitely going
to make the student disengage in the classroom.
My second little piece of current irritation
came from a conversation with a major university
that's well -known. The student was asking to
have a meeting with their student success coordinator
and asked me to sit in as a reference if I could
help answer questions about the math learning
disability and the student is an adult. She also
asked her mom to sit in. In addition to dyscalculia
and ADD, the student has very high anxiety and
she only recently got diagnosed. She's in college.
Her diagnosis is only a year old so she has not
had time to understand herself. much less her
disorder, much less how to explain it. So I was
happy to be part of the conversation until the
student success coordinator said that the team
that would approve accommodations was more interested
in how the student felt and what her experience
was like, not in any of the research. How higher
education institution can willingly turn its
back on 90 plus years of published peer -reviewed
scientific research blows my mind. Now certainly
you want to know the student experience and you
want to have that dialogue so you can get to
know a student but to completely ignore and not
want to have any knowledge about the published
research that's like if your physician said if
tell me how you're feeling about your type 1
diabetes, but I don't want to read any medical
journals about it. Listen, you want to know your
patient, but you can ask those questions after
you've administered some insulin, because that
is the key thing you need to know about type
1 diabetes. It completely floored me. It also
gave very little room for the the student to
make a case for her accommodations, that it wasn't
just something she was asking for because it
made her feel better. It was something that was
proven through scientific research to be a necessary
component of her learning success. So long story
short, I'm pretty sure she's not going to get
the accommodations that she needs and we're looking
into other math programs for her that can be
used as transfer credits because this disengagement
And the disregard for published research could
very well stop this student from completing her
bachelor's degree. And she's not the only student
I've seen have this issue. My third problem,
which really blends into one and two, is what
was the student supposed to say? For context,
the student success coordinator wanted her to
practice doing brain dump where she just writes
down everything that she can remember about math
and to see how that worked for her. Not to be
able to do it in a test situation, but to practice
it at home as a way to increase her memory and
recall and put what she knows into context. Really
cute idea. doesn't have anything to do with the
fact that dyscalculia causes the parietal lobe
to lose math information over time, and that
the parietal lobe in people with dyscalculia
is shown through fMRIs to have less activity
than the parietal lobe in neurotypical people.
So this brain dump, I can tell you exactly what's
going to happen. She's not going to remember
anything. Hello, definition of one of the major
signs and symptoms of dyscalculia, which is very
clearly addressed in the research studies. So
I don't think she's going to get the accommodations
that she needs. She was given the accommodation
to use a calculator and have extended time. She
still has to go into a highly proctored specialized
setting, which is very anxiety producing and
nerve racking. And I've mentioned in other podcast
episodes that I have students who will refuse
the accommodation of test taking at a testing
center at their college or university because
they feel like an exposed goldfish in a bowl
being stared at and it's very disruptive. They'd
rather take the test and do very poorly in class
with the rest of their peers. Which here's my
my third issue, human development. Are we just
ignoring human development entirely? We know
that for adolescents especially and lingering
into early adulthood that the interaction with
peers is vitally important. We know that children
have a harder time being fully aware of themselves
yet because they're still developing. So again,
we're putting this burden on people when really
the burden should be ours. We understand human
development. One can only hope that if we're
in education, we've taken those human development
classes, we know a little bit about theories
of human development and the stages of development
people go through, which blends into my final
issue with self -advocacy. And that is the power
differential involved. By definition, there is
a power difference between adult and a child
and it does not trend towards the child. There's
a power differential between a principal or a
student success coordinator or a classroom teacher
versus a parent and a student and it does not
trend toward the student. So we are automatically
putting the burden on to people who have the
least amount of power in the situation and who
have the most amount of intimidation based on
the different roles and the different ages of
the people involved in the conversation. So if
we want to encourage self -advocacy, we need
to be open to listening to what people have to
say. We need to go out and do our own research
and education the same way you continue with
education in any field. You need to know what's
going on in your career. And in education, that
means you need to understand learning disorders.
And we need to be aware of the power differential,
and we need to give space for listening to what
the student has to say, for giving validity to
what they have to say, and for trying what they've
asked us to try. If you have no other interest
at all in bettering yourself in the field of
education and learning about the research that's
out there. If you have no interest in neuroscience,
that's your choice, that's perfectly fine. Then
don't ask for self -advocacy because you're not
hearing what the person has to say and you don't
know enough to know whether or not it's valid
and therefore you don't know whether or not your
accommodations are truly going to help. If we
want to go with some analogies, it would be like
telling a type 1 diabetic to eat more vegetables.
That's great and always a good idea. not going
to help because their pancreas has an issue creating
insulin at the proper amounts and at the proper
time. If you want to tell a student who needs
to get better at reading to read more, listen
to more, read anything at all so that they're
having exposure to language, that's a great idea.
If they need prescription glasses, you've got
to include that in the conversation. Helping
students who have an Difference like dyscalculia
is the exact same thing. You do want to incorporate
the student strengths and weaknesses into the
conversation. You do want to model and train
self -advocacy skills for young adults. And you
also need to know enough about the issue to help
the student properly address their learning needs
so they can be successful. In conclusion, I know
we're all talking about self -advocacy and it's
very popular and it's not going anywhere. And
I don't think it's a terrible idea. But I do
think we're taking advantage of people who are
too young to advocate well for themselves. We're
taking advantage of people who are still learning
about their own neurodivergence, much less how
they're supposed to say it to someone else. And
we're taking advantage of the power differential
between the decision maker the person who is
suffering in the classroom so keep that in mind
when you talk about the need for self -advocacy
and especially in higher education you've got
to get into this conversation in neurodivergence
and you need to do it through the lens of published
research especially if you are a university which
by definition should value publishing research
so that's my soapbox for today If you would like
to know more about dyscalculia so that you can
have better advocacy conversations with your
students, please visit either of the websites,
listen to more of the podcast episodes, or reach
out to me anytime. And we are putting more research
studies up on the websites so you can have that
direct access. You don't even have to go through
any of your research libraries at school or if
you don't have access, Not everything opens up
on a site like Google Scholar, but we are trying
to get that information to you so that you can
read original source research and know what it
says. If you are the student doing self -advocacy,
I want you to also know more about your learning
style, your strengths and weaknesses, and learning
style. I mean that in the way the author originally
published it, not in the way we talk about it
in most classrooms, and to know about neurodivergence.
so that you understand your strengths and weaknesses
and where you have legitimate needs for specific
accommodations that address dyscalculia. You
can email me honora at eduCalcLearning .com
or honora at thedtri .org and I'm happy to help
you navigate the conversation around dyscalculia
and self -advocacy. Thanks for listening to the
What in the World is Dyscalculia podcast
and we'll see you next time.