WEBVTT 00:00:02.730 --> 00:00:05.389 Hi, welcome back to the What in the World is 00:00:05.389 --> 00:00:09.050 Dyscalculia podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Honora 00:00:09.050 --> 00:00:12.130 Wall, and the What in the World is Dyscalculia 00:00:12.130 --> 00:00:16.710 podcast is put on by Educalc Learning. You can 00:00:16.710 --> 00:00:20.010 find out more about our company and our services 00:00:20.010 --> 00:00:24.170 at EducalcLearning .com, or you can visit the 00:00:24.170 --> 00:00:29.429 DTRI .org for more information and research into 00:00:29.429 --> 00:00:33.259 dyscalculia and neurodivergence in general. And 00:00:33.259 --> 00:00:36.539 what I want to talk about in today's episode 00:00:36.539 --> 00:00:41.939 is self -advocacy. Trending topic in education 00:00:41.939 --> 00:00:44.679 right now. It's a big thing when we're working 00:00:44.679 --> 00:00:47.219 with neurodivergent students and we do a lot 00:00:47.219 --> 00:00:50.640 of training and discussing self -advocacy tips 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:54.539 for children and young adults, especially as 00:00:54.539 --> 00:00:58.460 they get into higher ed. I have a couple of problems 00:00:58.460 --> 00:01:01.679 with self -advocacy. and I want to discuss them 00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:04.439 because if we can answer some of these questions 00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:07.400 and address some of these issues, we can get 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:11.180 farther with self -advocacy and supporting students. 00:01:12.140 --> 00:01:18.000 So my first issue with self -advocacy, it puts 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:22.299 a lot of undue pressure and burden on children 00:01:22.299 --> 00:01:27.480 and young adults. Yes, we want people to know 00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:30.640 how to defend themselves, explain themselves, 00:01:30.859 --> 00:01:35.760 discuss their strengths and weaknesses, and iterate 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:39.260 to the educator, their teacher, tutor, whomever, 00:01:39.500 --> 00:01:43.319 what best helps them to learn and what best helps 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:46.859 them to show their knowledge. That's a lot to 00:01:46.859 --> 00:01:49.359 expect of a child. It's hard for them to know 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:53.659 themselves or to have the vocabulary to put their 00:01:53.659 --> 00:01:56.870 strengths and weaknesses into words. So when 00:01:56.870 --> 00:02:01.069 we talk about self -advocacy skills and we train 00:02:01.069 --> 00:02:04.230 students in self -advocacy, what are we asking 00:02:04.230 --> 00:02:08.669 them to say? How are we asking them to say it? 00:02:10.069 --> 00:02:13.430 And how much time are we spending with them modeling 00:02:13.430 --> 00:02:17.969 self -advocacy, modeling how to describe their 00:02:17.969 --> 00:02:20.449 strengths and weaknesses and their needs in the 00:02:20.449 --> 00:02:24.580 classroom? And how much of that burden really 00:02:24.580 --> 00:02:27.860 should fall onto a child? Now, certainly we want 00:02:27.860 --> 00:02:31.280 children to have agency in their IEP and 504 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:34.860 meetings. We do want to ask them, what is their 00:02:34.860 --> 00:02:37.659 experience like? But there's a reason why we 00:02:37.659 --> 00:02:40.919 are the experts in the room. We're the grownups. 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:44.250 And by definition, they are not. Even when we 00:02:44.250 --> 00:02:47.430 look at higher education, we're looking at very 00:02:47.430 --> 00:02:50.090 young adults who are transitioning out of high 00:02:50.090 --> 00:02:52.509 school. Sometimes it's their first time living 00:02:52.509 --> 00:02:54.729 on their own or taking care of themselves, and 00:02:54.729 --> 00:02:57.250 we're putting them into a situation where all 00:02:57.250 --> 00:02:59.509 of this burden falls on their shoulders. And 00:02:59.509 --> 00:03:03.310 they may or may not know how to explain themselves 00:03:03.310 --> 00:03:08.330 in the most effective way. So if we want to bring 00:03:08.330 --> 00:03:10.930 children into the conversation of self -advocacy 00:03:10.930 --> 00:03:13.650 we need to do it with a lot more training a lot 00:03:13.650 --> 00:03:16.569 more modeling and understanding that they are 00:03:16.569 --> 00:03:20.150 part of the conversation But they shouldn't be 00:03:20.150 --> 00:03:22.530 driving the conversation because they're the 00:03:22.530 --> 00:03:25.229 children and we're the grown -ups and we need 00:03:25.229 --> 00:03:30.590 to act like it which leads into my second issue 00:03:30.590 --> 00:03:34.810 with self -advocacy and this one goes really 00:03:34.810 --> 00:03:38.509 straight to the educators in the room, and the 00:03:38.509 --> 00:03:41.629 student success coordinator at the college and 00:03:41.629 --> 00:03:45.750 university. Here are the two things recently 00:03:45.750 --> 00:03:49.310 that have set me off on this topic. The first 00:03:49.310 --> 00:03:53.509 issue, I had a high school student in Miami, 00:03:53.509 --> 00:03:55.750 Florida, a large district, a large public school. 00:03:56.349 --> 00:03:59.150 She's very good at self -advocacy. We've done 00:03:59.150 --> 00:04:03.090 a lot of work on modeling how she can explain 00:04:03.090 --> 00:04:07.860 dyscalculia. ADHD and her strengths and weaknesses 00:04:07.860 --> 00:04:10.759 as a student. She's highly intelligent and a 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:15.419 very strong student. And her high school math 00:04:15.419 --> 00:04:18.579 teacher said dyscalculia isn't real. You don't 00:04:18.579 --> 00:04:22.819 have that, it doesn't exist. Well, where is the 00:04:22.819 --> 00:04:25.519 student supposed to go for their self -advocacy 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:29.680 after hearing a remark like that? This door is 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:33.800 completely closed. The teacher has zero interest. 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:37.819 in learning about the student's strengths and 00:04:37.819 --> 00:04:39.839 weaknesses and what they need to succeed in the 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:43.879 classroom. So I don't know what the student was 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:46.680 supposed to do after that. The whole thing was 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:50.420 very shocking. And that's part of why we do so 00:04:50.420 --> 00:04:53.060 much awareness. That's part of why you're seeing 00:04:53.060 --> 00:04:56.360 dyscalculia trending along with dysgraphia. We 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:58.759 haven't even started talking about dyspraxia 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:02.000 yet on a national scale. And learning more about 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:06.329 neurodivergence, in general. And teachers, just 00:05:06.329 --> 00:05:08.870 to make sure you know, discount coolium might 00:05:08.870 --> 00:05:12.170 be new to you, but we're rolling up on a hundred 00:05:12.170 --> 00:05:16.129 years of research into the math learning disability 00:05:16.129 --> 00:05:19.949 in the fields of neuroscience, psychology, and 00:05:19.949 --> 00:05:24.370 education. Now there's no way a classroom teacher 00:05:24.370 --> 00:05:27.829 has the time, much less the energy, and sometimes 00:05:27.829 --> 00:05:30.790 not even the interest, to keep up on every single 00:05:30.790 --> 00:05:33.399 bit of research that's coming out. That's why 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:35.819 you go to conferences. That's why you attend 00:05:35.819 --> 00:05:38.240 trainings. That's why you engage in your PD. 00:05:38.579 --> 00:05:40.160 And that's why you do a little bit of reading 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:44.860 on your own. The knowledge is out there. If you 00:05:44.860 --> 00:05:48.360 have any questions about dyscalculia or dyspraxia 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:51.600 or dysgraphia, feel free to reach out. Email 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:54.980 me and I'm happy to help you. Without stress 00:05:54.980 --> 00:05:57.839 or frustration, learn how to support your students. 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:03.620 But to tell a child that what they have diagnosed 00:06:03.620 --> 00:06:06.800 by a psychologist doesn't exist. That just shows 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:09.120 a real lack of interest. That's definitely going 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:11.800 to make the student disengage in the classroom. 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:15.819 My second little piece of current irritation 00:06:15.819 --> 00:06:20.240 came from a conversation with a major university 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:26.259 that's well -known. The student was asking to 00:06:26.259 --> 00:06:29.459 have a meeting with their student success coordinator 00:06:29.459 --> 00:06:34.620 and asked me to sit in as a reference if I could 00:06:34.620 --> 00:06:36.800 help answer questions about the math learning 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:39.959 disability and the student is an adult. She also 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:44.079 asked her mom to sit in. In addition to dyscalculia 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:49.019 and ADD, the student has very high anxiety and 00:06:49.019 --> 00:06:52.860 she only recently got diagnosed. She's in college. 00:06:53.339 --> 00:06:57.180 Her diagnosis is only a year old so she has not 00:06:57.180 --> 00:07:01.790 had time to understand herself. much less her 00:07:01.790 --> 00:07:06.569 disorder, much less how to explain it. So I was 00:07:06.569 --> 00:07:10.250 happy to be part of the conversation until the 00:07:10.250 --> 00:07:14.089 student success coordinator said that the team 00:07:14.089 --> 00:07:18.110 that would approve accommodations was more interested 00:07:18.110 --> 00:07:22.089 in how the student felt and what her experience 00:07:22.089 --> 00:07:29.810 was like, not in any of the research. How higher 00:07:29.810 --> 00:07:33.730 education institution can willingly turn its 00:07:33.730 --> 00:07:40.189 back on 90 plus years of published peer -reviewed 00:07:40.189 --> 00:07:44.410 scientific research blows my mind. Now certainly 00:07:44.410 --> 00:07:46.810 you want to know the student experience and you 00:07:46.810 --> 00:07:48.629 want to have that dialogue so you can get to 00:07:48.629 --> 00:07:53.069 know a student but to completely ignore and not 00:07:53.069 --> 00:07:56.149 want to have any knowledge about the published 00:07:56.149 --> 00:07:58.790 research that's like if your physician said if 00:07:58.779 --> 00:08:01.959 tell me how you're feeling about your type 1 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:04.620 diabetes, but I don't want to read any medical 00:08:04.620 --> 00:08:07.800 journals about it. Listen, you want to know your 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:10.220 patient, but you can ask those questions after 00:08:10.220 --> 00:08:13.240 you've administered some insulin, because that 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:15.379 is the key thing you need to know about type 00:08:15.379 --> 00:08:20.720 1 diabetes. It completely floored me. It also 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:23.699 gave very little room for the the student to 00:08:23.699 --> 00:08:26.800 make a case for her accommodations, that it wasn't 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:28.839 just something she was asking for because it 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:33.000 made her feel better. It was something that was 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:36.159 proven through scientific research to be a necessary 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:40.740 component of her learning success. So long story 00:08:40.740 --> 00:08:42.440 short, I'm pretty sure she's not going to get 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:44.740 the accommodations that she needs and we're looking 00:08:44.740 --> 00:08:48.340 into other math programs for her that can be 00:08:48.340 --> 00:08:52.259 used as transfer credits because this disengagement 00:08:52.379 --> 00:08:55.220 And the disregard for published research could 00:08:55.220 --> 00:08:58.179 very well stop this student from completing her 00:08:58.179 --> 00:09:00.679 bachelor's degree. And she's not the only student 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:06.519 I've seen have this issue. My third problem, 00:09:06.539 --> 00:09:11.120 which really blends into one and two, is what 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:15.500 was the student supposed to say? For context, 00:09:16.139 --> 00:09:18.440 the student success coordinator wanted her to 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:21.450 practice doing brain dump where she just writes 00:09:21.450 --> 00:09:24.429 down everything that she can remember about math 00:09:24.429 --> 00:09:27.409 and to see how that worked for her. Not to be 00:09:27.409 --> 00:09:31.169 able to do it in a test situation, but to practice 00:09:31.169 --> 00:09:36.009 it at home as a way to increase her memory and 00:09:36.009 --> 00:09:40.389 recall and put what she knows into context. Really 00:09:40.389 --> 00:09:43.429 cute idea. doesn't have anything to do with the 00:09:43.429 --> 00:09:46.750 fact that dyscalculia causes the parietal lobe 00:09:46.750 --> 00:09:49.429 to lose math information over time, and that 00:09:49.429 --> 00:09:52.110 the parietal lobe in people with dyscalculia 00:09:52.110 --> 00:09:55.429 is shown through fMRIs to have less activity 00:09:55.429 --> 00:09:59.710 than the parietal lobe in neurotypical people. 00:10:01.250 --> 00:10:04.009 So this brain dump, I can tell you exactly what's 00:10:04.009 --> 00:10:05.850 going to happen. She's not going to remember 00:10:05.850 --> 00:10:08.730 anything. Hello, definition of one of the major 00:10:08.730 --> 00:10:12.409 signs and symptoms of dyscalculia, which is very 00:10:12.409 --> 00:10:16.090 clearly addressed in the research studies. So 00:10:16.090 --> 00:10:18.669 I don't think she's going to get the accommodations 00:10:18.669 --> 00:10:21.370 that she needs. She was given the accommodation 00:10:21.370 --> 00:10:24.710 to use a calculator and have extended time. She 00:10:24.710 --> 00:10:27.990 still has to go into a highly proctored specialized 00:10:27.990 --> 00:10:30.269 setting, which is very anxiety producing and 00:10:30.269 --> 00:10:33.450 nerve racking. And I've mentioned in other podcast 00:10:33.450 --> 00:10:38.080 episodes that I have students who will refuse 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:41.639 the accommodation of test taking at a testing 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:45.039 center at their college or university because 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:49.980 they feel like an exposed goldfish in a bowl 00:10:49.980 --> 00:10:53.220 being stared at and it's very disruptive. They'd 00:10:53.220 --> 00:10:57.179 rather take the test and do very poorly in class 00:10:57.179 --> 00:11:01.639 with the rest of their peers. Which here's my 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.659 my third issue, human development. Are we just 00:11:05.659 --> 00:11:09.539 ignoring human development entirely? We know 00:11:09.539 --> 00:11:12.159 that for adolescents especially and lingering 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:17.240 into early adulthood that the interaction with 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:22.179 peers is vitally important. We know that children 00:11:22.179 --> 00:11:25.899 have a harder time being fully aware of themselves 00:11:25.899 --> 00:11:29.080 yet because they're still developing. So again, 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:33.200 we're putting this burden on people when really 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:36.409 the burden should be ours. We understand human 00:11:36.409 --> 00:11:39.129 development. One can only hope that if we're 00:11:39.129 --> 00:11:41.409 in education, we've taken those human development 00:11:41.409 --> 00:11:44.870 classes, we know a little bit about theories 00:11:44.870 --> 00:11:47.350 of human development and the stages of development 00:11:47.350 --> 00:11:50.710 people go through, which blends into my final 00:11:50.710 --> 00:11:53.970 issue with self -advocacy. And that is the power 00:11:53.970 --> 00:11:57.950 differential involved. By definition, there is 00:11:57.950 --> 00:12:03.470 a power difference between adult and a child 00:12:03.470 --> 00:12:06.870 and it does not trend towards the child. There's 00:12:06.870 --> 00:12:10.269 a power differential between a principal or a 00:12:10.269 --> 00:12:13.470 student success coordinator or a classroom teacher 00:12:13.470 --> 00:12:16.370 versus a parent and a student and it does not 00:12:16.370 --> 00:12:19.789 trend toward the student. So we are automatically 00:12:19.789 --> 00:12:22.070 putting the burden on to people who have the 00:12:22.070 --> 00:12:26.029 least amount of power in the situation and who 00:12:26.029 --> 00:12:30.350 have the most amount of intimidation based on 00:12:30.429 --> 00:12:33.570 the different roles and the different ages of 00:12:33.570 --> 00:12:36.129 the people involved in the conversation. So if 00:12:36.129 --> 00:12:39.230 we want to encourage self -advocacy, we need 00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:41.710 to be open to listening to what people have to 00:12:41.710 --> 00:12:45.769 say. We need to go out and do our own research 00:12:45.769 --> 00:12:49.490 and education the same way you continue with 00:12:49.490 --> 00:12:52.789 education in any field. You need to know what's 00:12:52.789 --> 00:12:56.590 going on in your career. And in education, that 00:12:56.590 --> 00:12:59.110 means you need to understand learning disorders. 00:12:59.370 --> 00:13:01.789 And we need to be aware of the power differential, 00:13:02.210 --> 00:13:06.490 and we need to give space for listening to what 00:13:06.490 --> 00:13:11.169 the student has to say, for giving validity to 00:13:11.169 --> 00:13:15.769 what they have to say, and for trying what they've 00:13:15.769 --> 00:13:18.190 asked us to try. If you have no other interest 00:13:18.190 --> 00:13:23.070 at all in bettering yourself in the field of 00:13:23.070 --> 00:13:25.250 education and learning about the research that's 00:13:25.250 --> 00:13:27.350 out there. If you have no interest in neuroscience, 00:13:27.870 --> 00:13:31.049 that's your choice, that's perfectly fine. Then 00:13:31.049 --> 00:13:34.590 don't ask for self -advocacy because you're not 00:13:34.590 --> 00:13:37.629 hearing what the person has to say and you don't 00:13:37.629 --> 00:13:40.389 know enough to know whether or not it's valid 00:13:40.389 --> 00:13:43.029 and therefore you don't know whether or not your 00:13:43.029 --> 00:13:46.830 accommodations are truly going to help. If we 00:13:46.830 --> 00:13:48.970 want to go with some analogies, it would be like 00:13:48.970 --> 00:13:51.389 telling a type 1 diabetic to eat more vegetables. 00:13:51.889 --> 00:13:55.490 That's great and always a good idea. not going 00:13:55.490 --> 00:13:58.789 to help because their pancreas has an issue creating 00:13:58.789 --> 00:14:01.590 insulin at the proper amounts and at the proper 00:14:01.590 --> 00:14:05.649 time. If you want to tell a student who needs 00:14:05.649 --> 00:14:08.950 to get better at reading to read more, listen 00:14:08.950 --> 00:14:12.429 to more, read anything at all so that they're 00:14:12.429 --> 00:14:14.710 having exposure to language, that's a great idea. 00:14:15.490 --> 00:14:18.690 If they need prescription glasses, you've got 00:14:18.690 --> 00:14:22.470 to include that in the conversation. Helping 00:14:22.470 --> 00:14:25.590 students who have an Difference like dyscalculia 00:14:25.590 --> 00:14:29.769 is the exact same thing. You do want to incorporate 00:14:29.769 --> 00:14:32.250 the student strengths and weaknesses into the 00:14:32.250 --> 00:14:35.309 conversation. You do want to model and train 00:14:35.309 --> 00:14:39.789 self -advocacy skills for young adults. And you 00:14:39.789 --> 00:14:43.809 also need to know enough about the issue to help 00:14:43.809 --> 00:14:48.429 the student properly address their learning needs 00:14:48.429 --> 00:14:53.679 so they can be successful. In conclusion, I know 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:55.799 we're all talking about self -advocacy and it's 00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:59.759 very popular and it's not going anywhere. And 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:01.899 I don't think it's a terrible idea. But I do 00:15:01.899 --> 00:15:04.399 think we're taking advantage of people who are 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:07.700 too young to advocate well for themselves. We're 00:15:07.700 --> 00:15:10.159 taking advantage of people who are still learning 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:13.700 about their own neurodivergence, much less how 00:15:13.700 --> 00:15:15.860 they're supposed to say it to someone else. And 00:15:15.860 --> 00:15:17.960 we're taking advantage of the power differential 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:22.090 between the decision maker the person who is 00:15:22.090 --> 00:15:26.269 suffering in the classroom so keep that in mind 00:15:26.269 --> 00:15:29.470 when you talk about the need for self -advocacy 00:15:29.470 --> 00:15:33.090 and especially in higher education you've got 00:15:33.090 --> 00:15:36.350 to get into this conversation in neurodivergence 00:15:36.350 --> 00:15:38.789 and you need to do it through the lens of published 00:15:38.789 --> 00:15:42.750 research especially if you are a university which 00:15:42.750 --> 00:15:46.110 by definition should value publishing research 00:15:46.110 --> 00:15:49.840 so that's my soapbox for today If you would like 00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:53.440 to know more about dyscalculia so that you can 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:57.379 have better advocacy conversations with your 00:15:57.379 --> 00:16:00.139 students, please visit either of the websites, 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:02.860 listen to more of the podcast episodes, or reach 00:16:02.860 --> 00:16:07.659 out to me anytime. And we are putting more research 00:16:07.659 --> 00:16:10.740 studies up on the websites so you can have that 00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:13.860 direct access. You don't even have to go through 00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:16.700 any of your research libraries at school or if 00:16:16.700 --> 00:16:19.750 you don't have access, Not everything opens up 00:16:19.750 --> 00:16:23.049 on a site like Google Scholar, but we are trying 00:16:23.049 --> 00:16:25.870 to get that information to you so that you can 00:16:25.870 --> 00:16:29.230 read original source research and know what it 00:16:29.230 --> 00:16:33.250 says. If you are the student doing self -advocacy, 00:16:33.529 --> 00:16:36.490 I want you to also know more about your learning 00:16:36.490 --> 00:16:38.990 style, your strengths and weaknesses, and learning 00:16:38.990 --> 00:16:41.870 style. I mean that in the way the author originally 00:16:41.870 --> 00:16:44.230 published it, not in the way we talk about it 00:16:44.230 --> 00:16:47.809 in most classrooms, and to know about neurodivergence. 00:16:47.980 --> 00:16:50.039 so that you understand your strengths and weaknesses 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:55.419 and where you have legitimate needs for specific 00:16:55.419 --> 00:17:00.059 accommodations that address dyscalculia. You 00:17:00.059 --> 00:17:03.860 can email me honora at eduCalcLearning .com 00:17:03.860 --> 00:17:09.619 or honora at thedtri .org and I'm happy to help 00:17:09.619 --> 00:17:13.319 you navigate the conversation around dyscalculia 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:16.750 and self -advocacy. Thanks for listening to the 00:17:16.750 --> 00:17:19.329 What in the World is Dyscalculia podcast 00:17:19.329 --> 00:17:20.650 and we'll see you next time.