WEBVTT 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.879 Hello and welcome to this episode of What in 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:07.580 the World is Dyscalculia. I'm Dr. Honora Wall 00:00:07.580 --> 00:00:11.939 and I'm the host of this podcast which is sponsored 00:00:11.939 --> 00:00:15.599 by Educalc Learning and if you visit EducalcLearning 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:19.079 .com you can find lots of information about the 00:00:19.079 --> 00:00:22.839 training we have for teachers and the services 00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:26.300 and programs we have for students. You can also 00:00:26.300 --> 00:00:30.410 visit the Dyscalculia Training and Research Institute 00:00:30.410 --> 00:00:37.289 at www .thedtri .org for a lot of free information 00:00:37.289 --> 00:00:41.549 and information about our brand new program NBD 00:00:41.549 --> 00:00:44.710 math and I'll talk about that at the end of the 00:00:44.710 --> 00:00:47.530 podcast because I really want to get into our 00:00:47.530 --> 00:00:51.990 topic today which I'm calling the Goldilocks 00:00:51.990 --> 00:00:57.560 problem of Dyscalculia and that is when A student 00:00:57.560 --> 00:00:59.740 is getting some kind of support at school but 00:00:59.740 --> 00:01:04.120 it's not exactly the right kind. It's a little 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:07.060 too hot or a little too cold, a little too hard 00:01:07.060 --> 00:01:10.379 or a little too soft. It's just not quite right. 00:01:10.659 --> 00:01:13.920 And we're looking for that Goldilocks effect 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:16.760 where we get the right kind of support with the 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:19.879 right kind of accommodations and the student 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:24.599 can succeed. Now, if you've been listening to 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:27.819 the podcast or if you've tried any of the accommodations 00:01:27.819 --> 00:01:29.840 we recommend or you've been to our trainings, 00:01:30.540 --> 00:01:34.500 you know that I've found for close to a decade 00:01:34.500 --> 00:01:38.480 now, once we get the support for Discount Coolia 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:42.120 right, students can succeed very, very quickly. 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:45.840 The difference between Discount Coolia, the math 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:49.760 learning disability, and let's say low numeracy 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:53.219 or a weak math foundation is a student who does 00:01:53.219 --> 00:01:56.400 not have a math learning disability will move 00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:01.000 away from needing accommodations. And a student 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:05.060 who has the learning disability is going to continue 00:02:05.060 --> 00:02:08.419 to need accommodations. It's really the difference 00:02:08.419 --> 00:02:12.360 between being a person who wears readers because 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:15.180 your eyes are a little older like mine or you 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:17.259 just need help every once in a while with small 00:02:17.259 --> 00:02:22.800 print versus someone who has either nearsightedness 00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:25.539 or farsightedness and always needs prescription 00:02:25.539 --> 00:02:30.840 glasses. It's not a deficit or a terrible problem 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:32.699 that impacts your life. You just need the right 00:02:32.699 --> 00:02:35.819 prescription and then you can see just fine. 00:02:36.139 --> 00:02:42.919 Same thing holds true for dyscalculia. So why 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:45.939 don't we always get the support right? Well, 00:02:46.020 --> 00:02:49.460 that's a great question with a complex answer, 00:02:49.460 --> 00:02:51.620 but I'm going to give you some of my thoughts 00:02:51.620 --> 00:02:56.960 and we'll open this conversation. If you have 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:59.939 questions or comments about the conversation, 00:03:00.099 --> 00:03:03.500 I'd love to hear them. You can comment on my 00:03:03.500 --> 00:03:14.810 socials. I'm on most social media sites. or you 00:03:14.810 --> 00:03:19.069 can find my YouTube channel and leave some comments 00:03:19.069 --> 00:03:22.490 there or email me and I'd love to hear your thoughts. 00:03:23.569 --> 00:03:28.590 But what tends to happen is a couple of very 00:03:28.590 --> 00:03:32.990 common issues. The first is that we have a student 00:03:32.990 --> 00:03:36.509 who might have dyscalculia but maybe they don't 00:03:36.509 --> 00:03:39.789 have an official diagnosis so then it becomes 00:03:39.789 --> 00:03:43.569 difficult to get accommodations because they 00:03:43.569 --> 00:03:47.110 don't have the paperwork that makes it legally 00:03:47.110 --> 00:03:51.210 required and that's a really big issue which 00:03:51.210 --> 00:03:54.969 we've discussed in podcasts before and in that 00:03:54.969 --> 00:03:58.430 case sometimes you have a teacher who will give 00:03:58.430 --> 00:04:01.550 some help in the classroom regardless of the 00:04:01.550 --> 00:04:05.659 paperwork situation kudos to those teachers accommodations 00:04:05.659 --> 00:04:09.460 are free, and you don't have to wait for approval 00:04:09.460 --> 00:04:11.840 from someone else. You can just support your 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:16.540 students today. If they have suspected dyscalculia, 00:04:17.379 --> 00:04:19.980 that support is going to include number lines, 00:04:20.220 --> 00:04:22.639 one -to -one hundreds chart, a multiplication 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:26.399 list, having notes with them during their assessments 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:29.139 to trigger their memory so they can keep track 00:04:29.139 --> 00:04:31.800 of their work. And you're going to see some really 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:38.860 great benefits from that. Sometimes when we don't 00:04:38.860 --> 00:04:41.040 have the right kind of paperwork a teacher isn't 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.939 sure what to do and they want to try some different 00:04:44.939 --> 00:04:48.699 interventions and see if they can Make that needle 00:04:48.699 --> 00:04:51.519 move for the student and get some increased math 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:55.259 performance That's a harder conversation and 00:04:55.259 --> 00:04:57.500 I would encourage you to share some research 00:04:57.500 --> 00:05:01.560 studies and some websites like the two I've mentioned 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:05.889 mine or understood org or Learning Disabilities 00:05:05.889 --> 00:05:08.410 Association of America. There's some great information 00:05:08.410 --> 00:05:11.629 out there and let's increase awareness on that 00:05:11.629 --> 00:05:15.449 end. So in those cases we don't always get support 00:05:15.449 --> 00:05:20.089 and that's where we don't have enough. Another 00:05:20.089 --> 00:05:23.670 situation is when we have paperwork or we have 00:05:23.670 --> 00:05:26.050 a teacher who wants to be involved and wants 00:05:26.050 --> 00:05:28.689 to help but they're not quite giving the right 00:05:28.689 --> 00:05:33.980 kind of accommodations. So we're not seeing students 00:05:33.980 --> 00:05:37.620 improve their performance. And that's a really 00:05:37.620 --> 00:05:40.120 great indicator of whether or not you're offering 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:43.500 support that's appropriate for dyscalculia. If 00:05:43.500 --> 00:05:46.259 you're giving interventions and accommodations 00:05:46.259 --> 00:05:48.980 and we're not seeing progress, we're probably 00:05:48.980 --> 00:05:51.800 not doing the right thing. So we want to tweak 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:56.269 that. We might be giving extended time. We might 00:05:56.269 --> 00:05:59.810 be giving more interventions, but not accommodations, 00:06:00.009 --> 00:06:02.649 especially during assessments. That's never going 00:06:02.649 --> 00:06:06.029 to help a student with dyscalculia. We might 00:06:06.029 --> 00:06:10.850 be giving things that are appropriate for different 00:06:10.850 --> 00:06:14.990 issues. If you're giving appropriate accommodations 00:06:14.990 --> 00:06:19.389 for dyslexia or dysgraphia to a student with 00:06:19.389 --> 00:06:22.399 dyscalculia, you're not going to see very much 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:24.839 improvement, definitely not over the long -term. 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:29.160 You might see a few spikes of performance increase. 00:06:29.740 --> 00:06:32.740 You might see some short -term gains, but you're 00:06:32.740 --> 00:06:35.319 not going to see a lot of long -term improvement. 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:39.060 And that's because dyslexia and dyscalculia are 00:06:39.060 --> 00:06:42.019 very different. Sometimes they can be comorbid, 00:06:42.019 --> 00:06:44.160 they can occur at the same time, or there might 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:47.360 be some slight overlap in issues, but they're 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:51.620 completely different. types of neurodivergence 00:06:51.620 --> 00:06:54.879 so what helps with one does not help with the 00:06:54.879 --> 00:07:00.339 other so in those cases we have accommodations 00:07:00.339 --> 00:07:02.959 but it's too hard they're not the right kinds 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:04.819 and therefore we're not getting the right kind 00:07:04.819 --> 00:07:09.600 of help so what do we do well we keep having 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:13.000 conversations with our teachers with our school 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:15.319 counselors we bring them some more information 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:19.870 and we ask them to try the accommodations recommended 00:07:19.870 --> 00:07:24.189 for Discount Coolio. Sometimes schools are on 00:07:24.189 --> 00:07:27.029 board and they're willing to do whatever it takes 00:07:27.029 --> 00:07:30.529 to experiment on their own and see what helps 00:07:30.529 --> 00:07:33.389 a student and then we get a lot more buy -in 00:07:33.389 --> 00:07:36.589 because the teacher can see that now performance 00:07:36.589 --> 00:07:40.129 is matching the students abilities, it's matching 00:07:40.129 --> 00:07:43.769 their effort because we're actually seeing the 00:07:43.769 --> 00:07:47.920 assessments increase. Sometimes that's not the 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:52.759 case and we have a harder conversation. We have 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:55.079 to just keep raising awareness and we have to 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:58.560 keep spreading the recommendations for the right 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:01.500 kinds of accommodations. And you can do that 00:08:01.500 --> 00:08:04.279 through the resources I've already talked about 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:08.180 or encouraging teachers and schools to look up 00:08:08.180 --> 00:08:11.100 the research on their own. Go to Google Scholar 00:08:11.100 --> 00:08:15.199 and look up research studies from Brian Butterworth. 00:08:24.580 --> 00:08:27.379 There's a lot of researchers out there who have 00:08:27.379 --> 00:08:30.060 a lot of information that tells us what we should 00:08:30.060 --> 00:08:33.480 be doing for students with dyscalculia and why. 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:37.019 So the more we have these conversations and share 00:08:37.019 --> 00:08:39.940 this information, the more we're going to see 00:08:39.940 --> 00:08:45.460 some growth. that I'm giving you good information. 00:08:47.460 --> 00:08:50.360 Well, some of it comes from those research studies 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:53.039 and others. I read research articles all the 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:56.779 time. And a lot of it comes from many, many years 00:08:56.779 --> 00:09:00.720 of experience teaching, tutoring, and supporting 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:04.080 students with dyscalculia, making recommended 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:06.860 accommodations, and then hearing back from families 00:09:06.860 --> 00:09:11.299 what has worked and what has not for their students. 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:17.639 We do know what works. Here's some of the reasons 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:22.759 why. People with dyscalculia have slightly different 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:25.419 brain wiring in that parietal lobe, which is 00:09:25.419 --> 00:09:28.480 where we store our math knowledge. Of course, 00:09:28.580 --> 00:09:31.419 the human brain is very complex, and we can store 00:09:31.419 --> 00:09:34.019 knowledge in more than one area or region, which 00:09:34.019 --> 00:09:38.740 is my multi -sensory instruction, is so beneficial. 00:09:39.129 --> 00:09:42.870 But we do know the parietal lobe loses math information 00:09:42.870 --> 00:09:46.549 over time for people with dyscalculia. We also 00:09:46.549 --> 00:09:50.710 know that they tend to have a weaker or non -existent 00:09:50.710 --> 00:09:54.309 mental number line, which is why number sense 00:09:54.309 --> 00:09:57.909 is really tricky. Counting on is really tricky. 00:09:59.210 --> 00:10:02.269 Remembering facts, in fact families, in fact 00:10:02.269 --> 00:10:05.909 fluency, very tricky. That all comes down to 00:10:05.909 --> 00:10:09.700 their particular type of neurodivergence. So 00:10:09.700 --> 00:10:14.039 we use those external tools to support the weaker 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:17.240 wiring. And of course we can do interventions 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:19.860 and other activities to strengthen those connections. 00:10:20.659 --> 00:10:23.279 However, from a pragmatic point of view, if there's 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.419 a test Friday, if there's a report card grade 00:10:26.419 --> 00:10:29.620 we have to pass this class, if there are graduation 00:10:29.620 --> 00:10:33.080 requirements, in those cases I'm a much bigger 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:36.960 fan of using accommodations to make sure we reach 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:41.309 those mastery goals and we're showing math performance 00:10:41.309 --> 00:10:46.350 and we're not using external barriers that work 00:10:46.350 --> 00:10:51.289 against students with dyscalculia. So when the 00:10:51.289 --> 00:10:56.149 support is right, then we see the growth. A lot 00:10:56.149 --> 00:11:00.889 of that growth is long -term also. When I work 00:11:00.889 --> 00:11:03.129 with students and we have the right kind of support 00:11:03.129 --> 00:11:06.570 in place and we can keep that support year after 00:11:06.570 --> 00:11:10.320 year, Then, over time, they require less help 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:13.559 because they're learning how they learn. They're 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:15.779 learning their strengths and weaknesses, and 00:11:15.779 --> 00:11:19.580 they're maintaining that growth over time. But 00:11:19.580 --> 00:11:21.679 the minute we take those accommodations away, 00:11:22.419 --> 00:11:26.080 we lose ground. The same way if someone came 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:27.860 up to you and said, hey, you've been wearing 00:11:27.860 --> 00:11:29.840 those reading glasses for a couple years now. 00:11:29.860 --> 00:11:32.299 I think that's long enough, don't you? And you 00:11:32.299 --> 00:11:34.799 take their glasses away. they're going to go 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:37.460 right back to having a very hard time reading 00:11:37.460 --> 00:11:42.059 text because we haven't fixed their vision. We've 00:11:42.059 --> 00:11:44.500 simply taken away the external tool that allows 00:11:44.500 --> 00:11:50.279 them to see better. So I hope this podcast helps 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:53.940 you have some conversations with teachers or 00:11:53.940 --> 00:11:57.019 administrators who might be trying some things, 00:11:57.019 --> 00:11:59.360 but they're just trying some methods that aren't 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:02.759 really designed appropriately for this population. 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:07.620 And that's why they're not helping. As educators, 00:12:08.100 --> 00:12:11.200 we want children to succeed. And as math educators, 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:14.940 we certainly want them to enjoy or at least be 00:12:14.940 --> 00:12:19.440 able to do math well. And hopefully after doing 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:21.700 it well, we can get some more enjoyment in there. 00:12:22.460 --> 00:12:24.759 That's a personal decision if you like math or 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:28.690 not. I'm not here to sell you on math as a topic, 00:12:28.870 --> 00:12:31.730 but I am here to say, no matter why you're currently 00:12:31.730 --> 00:12:36.450 struggling, you can succeed. And no matter why 00:12:36.450 --> 00:12:39.009 your students are struggling, we can find ways 00:12:39.009 --> 00:12:43.669 to help them succeed. A lot of that comes from 00:12:43.669 --> 00:12:47.370 properly supporting dyscalculia. And if you do 00:12:47.370 --> 00:12:50.129 that right, then all your students are going 00:12:50.129 --> 00:12:52.940 to benefit. If they did not actually have the 00:12:52.940 --> 00:12:55.000 math learning disability, they will move away 00:12:55.000 --> 00:12:57.759 from those accommodations sooner, have a stronger 00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:00.600 math foundation, and go along their merry way. 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:03.580 If they do have the math learning disability, 00:13:03.860 --> 00:13:06.000 they're going to learn more about how to support 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:08.379 themselves, and with your help and the right 00:13:08.379 --> 00:13:10.940 accommodations, they're going to do just fine. 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:14.659 I'm Dr. Honora Wall, and I really appreciate 00:13:14.659 --> 00:13:18.259 you listening to What in the World is dyscalculia 00:13:18.259 --> 00:13:21.250 ? I'd love to hear your questions, comments, 00:13:21.490 --> 00:13:25.070 concerns and your ideas for future podcast episodes. 00:13:25.509 --> 00:13:26.250 Thanks for listening.