WEBVTT 00:00:00.940 --> 00:00:03.740 Hello everyone and welcome back to the What in 00:00:03.740 --> 00:00:07.360 the World is Dyscalculia podcast. I'm happy to 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:10.779 have you here with us today. I'm Dr. Honora Wall, 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:16.920 the narrator for our podcast bringing you information 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:20.339 about the math learning disability and other 00:00:20.339 --> 00:00:24.739 types of neurodivergence and interesting research 00:00:24.739 --> 00:00:28.500 articles about education in general. This podcast 00:00:28.500 --> 00:00:32.280 is sponsored by eduCalc Learning and you can 00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:34.719 find out more about our teacher training options 00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:39.539 and our online math classes for individuals who 00:00:39.539 --> 00:00:43.320 have dyscalculia at eduCalcLearning .com. I would 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:48.659 also encourage you to visit thedtri .org, home 00:00:48.659 --> 00:00:52.000 of the Dyscalculia Training and Research Institute 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:55.570 and that has a lot of information. for schools 00:00:55.570 --> 00:01:01.549 including our new NBD math program and also offers 00:01:01.549 --> 00:01:06.510 more insight into research around dyscalculia. 00:01:08.370 --> 00:01:12.189 They are both great sources of free information, 00:01:12.750 --> 00:01:17.030 resources, training, whatever you need, we are 00:01:17.030 --> 00:01:21.750 here to help. And an interesting little bit of 00:01:21.750 --> 00:01:24.439 help that I want to bring to you today was a 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:28.640 recent research study that was conducted and 00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:32.180 published through the University of Padua in 00:01:32.180 --> 00:01:37.359 Italy and it's really fascinating. It's a great 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:43.299 article about how humans develop that mental 00:01:43.299 --> 00:01:46.280 number line, how we develop counting. And of 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:49.040 course this is a crucial part of understanding 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:51.700 the math learning disability because people with 00:01:51.700 --> 00:01:55.719 dyscalculia do not seem to develop that internal 00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:59.000 mental number line in the same way or at the 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:05.719 same time as a neurotypical development. And 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:07.739 all that really means for us in the classroom 00:02:07.739 --> 00:02:12.919 is that we need to continue to use external tools 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:17.389 like a number line, a one to one hundreds chart, 00:02:18.930 --> 00:02:24.229 and manipulatives in our early education, moving 00:02:24.229 --> 00:02:29.310 into a blend of those support tools plus a multiplication 00:02:29.310 --> 00:02:33.069 list as we get farther into elementary, and then 00:02:33.069 --> 00:02:36.490 moving into a calculator. I like to do that somewhere 00:02:36.490 --> 00:02:39.789 around fourth or fifth grade depending on the 00:02:39.789 --> 00:02:43.509 topic. So you start to learn which tool works 00:02:43.509 --> 00:02:46.789 best under which condition, which is really the 00:02:46.789 --> 00:02:49.689 same as knowing when to use a hammer versus when 00:02:49.689 --> 00:02:52.050 to use a screwdriver. These are just tools that 00:02:52.050 --> 00:02:55.550 help us get the job done. For people with dyscalculia, 00:02:56.030 --> 00:02:59.789 we need to always offer these tools. These are 00:02:59.789 --> 00:03:03.949 part of the proper accommodations for a student 00:03:03.949 --> 00:03:07.120 with dyscalculia. They are not interventions 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:10.379 that we do for a limited amount of time expecting 00:03:10.379 --> 00:03:13.979 that the person will no longer need them. These 00:03:13.979 --> 00:03:17.000 are things that continue because the differences 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:20.740 in learning, understanding, remembering, and 00:03:20.740 --> 00:03:24.599 recalling math continue to be issues throughout 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:29.860 adulthood. Not insurmountable issues by any means, 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:32.360 just something that we support. The same way 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:36.289 we would let someone with vision issues wear 00:03:36.289 --> 00:03:40.370 their prescription glasses at all times. Now 00:03:40.370 --> 00:03:43.629 I know that for some teachers this is a big shift 00:03:43.629 --> 00:03:48.810 in mentality. We are expecting our students to 00:03:48.810 --> 00:03:52.509 come into class, learn what a number line is, 00:03:52.509 --> 00:03:55.909 learn how to count, and then move on to the next 00:03:55.909 --> 00:03:59.310 phase. And we don't think of those external tools 00:03:59.310 --> 00:04:04.000 as being something that should continue. That's 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:07.180 why our research is so important because it helps 00:04:07.180 --> 00:04:11.280 us see the fundamental differences in brain development 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:16.240 that underscore the math disability. So what 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:22.180 did this research study say? Well, it was conducted, 00:04:22.180 --> 00:04:25.379 as I said, in Italy at the University of Padua 00:04:25.379 --> 00:04:30.600 and the researchers were looking to see what 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:35.430 sort of in utero, of course they use chicken 00:04:35.430 --> 00:04:40.389 so is in egg not in utero, but what sort of pre 00:04:40.389 --> 00:04:44.029 birth brain development may or may not be tied 00:04:44.029 --> 00:04:49.550 to a mental number line and to counting. So this 00:04:49.550 --> 00:04:52.649 is sort of what you might want to think of as 00:04:52.649 --> 00:04:58.069 a preliminary research model. I say preliminary 00:04:58.069 --> 00:05:03.680 because it was done with chicks with little baby 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:06.660 chicken eggs, and we need to study this in other 00:05:06.660 --> 00:05:10.579 species and then build up to studying it in humans. 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:15.079 So there are going to be some differences and 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:18.819 that's a big part of being research -informed, 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:22.959 not necessarily research -based. This research 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:26.680 study is incredibly important and gives us some 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:30.220 really fantastic information. but it's more of 00:05:30.220 --> 00:05:33.360 a guidepost of where we need to go with future 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:36.939 research. It helps us understand what's probably 00:05:36.939 --> 00:05:41.600 happening with people who have dyscalculia, but 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:44.819 it's not a one -to -one connection. I want to 00:05:44.819 --> 00:05:48.060 make that part clear. Okay, so what happened 00:05:48.060 --> 00:05:52.259 in the study? Well, the researchers took some 00:05:52.259 --> 00:05:58.009 chicks, little eggs for baby chickens, and At 00:05:58.009 --> 00:06:01.569 a certain time before they were ready to hatch 00:06:01.569 --> 00:06:06.910 they changed the light exposure with the eggs 00:06:06.910 --> 00:06:10.290 because what we know about chicks is that their 00:06:10.290 --> 00:06:15.709 brain development is highly impacted by light 00:06:15.709 --> 00:06:21.649 exposure before they hatch. We know that many 00:06:21.649 --> 00:06:25.379 many many species, not just people, have the 00:06:25.379 --> 00:06:29.300 ability to count and this is very important especially 00:06:29.300 --> 00:06:33.399 in food and different parts of survival and that 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:37.680 was the important part for the chicks so before 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:40.899 the eggs hatched different groups were exposed 00:06:40.899 --> 00:06:45.120 to light in different ways and then after the 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:50.560 chicks hatched they were trained to find food 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:54.370 under bottle caps and the food was always placed 00:06:54.370 --> 00:06:59.370 under the fourth bottle cap in the training. 00:07:00.750 --> 00:07:02.709 Then they took their different control groups. 00:07:02.709 --> 00:07:06.569 They covered one eye or the other because we 00:07:06.569 --> 00:07:09.689 know a lot of information about how the brain 00:07:09.689 --> 00:07:16.610 of a chick is tied across the sphere. So the 00:07:16.610 --> 00:07:19.819 left eye is tied to the right part of the brain 00:07:19.819 --> 00:07:22.139 and the right eye is tied to the left part of 00:07:22.139 --> 00:07:24.579 the brain. Now again, human brains are much more 00:07:24.579 --> 00:07:30.740 complex and much more cross exposure and we do 00:07:30.740 --> 00:07:32.759 know more different things. But if you're trying 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:35.860 to do a research study and reduce the number 00:07:35.860 --> 00:07:40.019 of variables then you want to go with a chick 00:07:40.019 --> 00:07:45.459 because you can have a much stronger I guess 00:07:45.459 --> 00:07:50.759 I would say control or organization and identifying 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:56.660 features with that brain. Okay, the chicks were 00:07:56.660 --> 00:08:00.680 trained to find food under the fourth bottle 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:04.699 cap in a row and then they would manipulate in 00:08:04.699 --> 00:08:06.879 part of the experiment the food would be under 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:09.959 the fourth bottle cap from the left. Sometimes 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:14.899 it would be a very straight left to right setting 00:08:14.899 --> 00:08:18.439 of bottle caps. and sometimes they would mix 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:22.639 them up so they were might be higher or lower 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:24.939 than the other they weren't in a very linear 00:08:24.939 --> 00:08:29.339 pattern and then they studied whether or not 00:08:29.339 --> 00:08:32.159 the chicks could find the food and how long it 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:38.340 took and how successful they were here's what 00:08:38.340 --> 00:08:43.240 happened the chicks who had the proper light 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:48.600 exposure before hatching were able to consistently 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:53.179 and quickly find food moving from left to right, 00:08:53.179 --> 00:08:56.320 finding that fourth bottle cap. And they did 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:59.200 very well if the bottle caps were linear or if 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:03.460 they were spread out in different patterns. The 00:09:03.460 --> 00:09:07.100 chicks had to count to get to the fourth bottle 00:09:07.100 --> 00:09:10.740 cap in order to find the food. That's the important 00:09:10.740 --> 00:09:13.820 part. They had to know the difference between 00:09:13.820 --> 00:09:17.570 the first bottle cap and the fourth. when they 00:09:17.570 --> 00:09:21.470 looked at chicks whose light exposure had been 00:09:21.470 --> 00:09:25.809 interfered with or modified before hatching, 00:09:26.230 --> 00:09:30.070 those chicks had a real problem. They were not 00:09:30.070 --> 00:09:35.950 able to successfully accurately count from the 00:09:35.950 --> 00:09:38.710 first bottle cap to the fourth. Sometimes they 00:09:38.710 --> 00:09:41.509 started on the left side counting like we would 00:09:41.509 --> 00:09:44.450 think of as one two three four sometimes they 00:09:44.450 --> 00:09:46.870 started from the right sometimes they were just 00:09:46.870 --> 00:09:52.230 randomly picking they did not show evidence of 00:09:52.230 --> 00:09:56.250 having a mental number line and what the researchers 00:09:56.250 --> 00:10:00.769 are saying is that the results showed that a 00:10:00.769 --> 00:10:03.870 mental number line is not something abstract 00:10:03.870 --> 00:10:07.429 that we are simply taught in school it is tied 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:11.039 to spatial arrangement of objects within the 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:16.980 environment. It is tied to a biological underpinning 00:10:16.980 --> 00:10:20.600 in brain development and our sense of number 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:27.440 is grounded in our biology and in our neurology 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:32.639 and how our brains work. This is really key and 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:37.820 very groundbreaking information. we're able to 00:10:37.820 --> 00:10:43.639 see this evidence of how the brain holds this 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:47.159 math information, not just formulas or adding 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:50.879 and subtracting, but just understanding numbers 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.039 and understanding counting and understanding 00:10:54.039 --> 00:11:00.460 order. So really fascinating work and the University 00:11:00.460 --> 00:11:04.559 of Padua is doing a lot of research into dyscalculia. 00:11:05.850 --> 00:11:08.570 Hopefully, I can put them on part of a European 00:11:08.570 --> 00:11:11.789 tour one day and see a lot of our friends and 00:11:11.789 --> 00:11:17.029 followers in the UK, in Ireland, Scotland also, 00:11:17.649 --> 00:11:20.250 and visit this university because they're doing 00:11:20.250 --> 00:11:23.610 some great work. What does it mean for teachers, 00:11:24.029 --> 00:11:27.809 especially here in the US? It means that your 00:11:27.809 --> 00:11:31.159 teaching can be perfectly on point. You can be 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:34.159 doing an amazing job. Your manipulatives and 00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:37.799 your classroom instruction could be completely 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:42.120 above par. Just fantastic and wonderful. And 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:45.840 still, your students who have a math learning 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:51.000 disability are going to struggle because their 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:54.360 mental number line is going to be different. 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:58.100 You are still going to do the same instruction. 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:01.500 You're going to do more direct and explicit instruction. 00:12:02.620 --> 00:12:07.179 You're still going to use manipulatives and those 00:12:07.179 --> 00:12:10.320 kind of abstract visual tools like a printed 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:14.720 number line or a 1 to 100 chart, but you're going 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:17.340 to make sure that students who are struggling 00:12:17.340 --> 00:12:21.399 in math have access to those tools and manipulatives 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:26.139 longer than you would expect. you're going to 00:12:26.139 --> 00:12:32.159 provide an external support that reinforces the 00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:36.759 internal mental number line. For our older students, 00:12:36.860 --> 00:12:39.620 and by that I mean third, fourth, fifth grade, 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:43.879 you're still going to have those external tools 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:47.399 available. Now, as students get older, they're 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:50.019 not going to want to use manipulatives in front 00:12:50.019 --> 00:12:52.279 of everyone else. They're probably not going 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:55.090 to want to use their one -to -one hundreds chart 00:12:55.090 --> 00:12:58.929 or have number lines printed on their desk or 00:12:58.929 --> 00:13:02.509 use a multiplication list. It's our job as educators 00:13:02.509 --> 00:13:07.970 to create a space where we expect and insist 00:13:07.970 --> 00:13:11.470 that students use their tools to verify their 00:13:11.470 --> 00:13:16.190 guesses and check their work. When we do that, 00:13:17.289 --> 00:13:24.399 those accommodations become expectations of precision. 00:13:24.580 --> 00:13:26.860 And now we're changing the way they're being 00:13:26.860 --> 00:13:30.019 used and the way students are perceiving other 00:13:30.019 --> 00:13:34.059 students using these tools. Students who do not 00:13:34.059 --> 00:13:37.419 have a math learning disability, who have a really 00:13:37.419 --> 00:13:41.500 strong mental number line, who have great number 00:13:41.500 --> 00:13:43.759 sense, they're going to move away from needing 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:47.500 to use those tools naturally on their own. And 00:13:47.500 --> 00:13:50.559 that's really the key to scaffolding. We support 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:55.059 until the student is ready to move away on their 00:13:55.059 --> 00:13:58.899 own. They decide when they're ready. We make 00:13:58.899 --> 00:14:02.960 sure they have all the tools available for their 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:06.019 success and then we insist that they are successful. 00:14:06.759 --> 00:14:09.820 There's no reason for students to have a D or 00:14:09.820 --> 00:14:13.940 an F in your class. If there are a lot of students 00:14:13.940 --> 00:14:16.340 having D's and F's in your class I would highly 00:14:16.340 --> 00:14:19.029 recommend that you look at your interventions 00:14:19.029 --> 00:14:22.429 and your accommodations. You look at the alignment 00:14:22.429 --> 00:14:26.769 between your instruction, your practice, and 00:14:26.769 --> 00:14:29.309 your assessments. Because when we get out of 00:14:29.309 --> 00:14:31.809 alignment, we really mess the whole thing up. 00:14:32.470 --> 00:14:34.690 If people would just fix that alignment piece, 00:14:35.309 --> 00:14:39.690 then we'd have a lot more students and adults 00:14:39.690 --> 00:14:43.289 with a stronger sense of numeracy and better 00:14:43.289 --> 00:14:46.909 math mastery. But I digress. Those are topics 00:14:46.909 --> 00:14:49.690 for another podcast. The main thing I want you 00:14:49.690 --> 00:14:53.789 to take away from today's talk is that research 00:14:53.789 --> 00:14:59.529 exists that shows number sense, mental number 00:14:59.529 --> 00:15:04.330 line, and counting skills are part of our natural 00:15:04.330 --> 00:15:10.049 development. And that can be typical or atypical. 00:15:10.769 --> 00:15:16.899 That is not a deficit. It is a difference and 00:15:16.899 --> 00:15:20.860 it can be supported. That's why our accommodations 00:15:20.860 --> 00:15:25.080 are so crucial for students who have dyscalculia. 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:29.399 So if you want to know more about that study, 00:15:30.019 --> 00:15:33.059 you can find it online in a lot of different 00:15:33.059 --> 00:15:37.139 places. And as you know, we're trying to get 00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:40.240 more of our research articles and links onto 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:45.149 the websites, both eduCalcLearning .com and the 00:15:45.149 --> 00:15:49.470 DTRI .org. Just keep checking back. I'm a little 00:15:49.470 --> 00:15:51.850 behind with getting those research articles linked 00:15:51.850 --> 00:15:56.250 because there's just a lot to do. A lot to do 00:15:56.250 --> 00:16:00.090 in the very exciting world of studying dyscalculia. 00:16:00.470 --> 00:16:03.190 If you have questions about this article or about 00:16:03.190 --> 00:16:06.029 anything else related to the math learning disability, 00:16:06.509 --> 00:16:15.840 please reach out to me. honora@thedtri .org or honora 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:20.279 at educalclearning .com. If you're a teacher, 00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:25.500 you might want to join the Facebook support group. 00:16:26.620 --> 00:16:31.039 And if you are looking for support for your student 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:34.559 or your child, check out our websites. If you're 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:37.500 a school that wants to really revamp what's going 00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:41.289 on with your bottom 30 % of math students, check 00:16:41.289 --> 00:16:47.470 out nbdmath .org because that's really an exciting, 00:16:47.470 --> 00:16:49.990 exciting program. I'm very proud of the work 00:16:49.990 --> 00:16:53.309 we're doing there. And of course, check out our 00:16:53.309 --> 00:16:55.529 social media reels. We've got those in a lot 00:16:55.529 --> 00:16:58.710 of different places, so lots of free information, 00:16:59.409 --> 00:17:03.049 lots of targeted, detailed information, and as 00:17:03.049 --> 00:17:06.789 always, I'm happy to do some virtual or in -person 00:17:06.789 --> 00:17:11.170 training. for your teachers at any time. I'm 00:17:11.170 --> 00:17:13.849 Dr. Honora Wall and thank you very much for listening 00:17:13.849 --> 00:17:16.730 to the What in the World is Dyscalculia podcast. 00:17:17.250 --> 00:17:18.309 We'll talk again soon.